And what's to prevent FA staff from just banning images that they think is cub, when it's just the artists style?

Slap some ZZ cup tits on it?

I don't honestly know.

There are several artists I watch who are borderline. Some of who I am good friends with IRL. I know that they arn't depicting minors just cutesy people... It's going to be difficult and we will have to play it by ear and learn as we go along.

I can't say that this is perfect by any means but at this point it's all we have.

That's pretty much my point. I know from experience that FA staff get's "delete happy," and has actually gone so far as suspended users for it, when the staff had misinterpreted the rules.

Hell, 2 of my nature photos were deleted because SOMEONE decided that my photos looked too good to be taken by me, and that I stole them from the internet.

I worry for those artist who have a "cutesy" style getting banned because of abusive staff.

We have already stated very clearly that we will not be suspending users for forgetting about the policy, and/or not removing their works. If at the end of the grace period we happen upon them we will remove them. We honestly don't have any choice in the matter at this point but it will not be a mark against them.

The point of this policy isn't to wound people. We just need it off our site to be able to keep the site running in the future. It's a disappointment to me that it has come to this but we honestly have no choice and we want to make this transition as painless as we possibly can :(

I'm talking about new works posted after the grace period. If the art style is "cutsey" will the artist suffer for it?

if it's just cutsey and adult? then they wont.

The best example I can think of at the moment is  PurpleKecleon her style is really super cutesy, but it's not underage... as odd as that is.

Again it's going to be on a case by case basis.

 monoth is one who I'm thinking of, and is concerned about this exact problem.

just took a skim through their gallery, they look to be ok O_o

I'll let Monoth know.

Shane Nelsone (SSNinc i think) is another one, he's been accused of cub art because some of his characters such as Shayla have no tits. The pussy boy crowd could have some problems if their characters are to twinkesh too. This one is going to be interesting, Dragoneer's going to have his work cut out trying to figure out some moderation rules i suspect.

Indeed.

That usually takes months, and then artists loose interest in even being on FA and the Furry Community looses another good artist.

And banning unnecessarily is a great way to loose further donations.

In essence, keeping users happy IS FA's duty, as the site IS dependent on our donations, as has been made VERY obvious tonight.

I hate giant tits D:

Did you know that in AU, small breasted female porn is outlawed for "being too close to CP?"

Watch it happen here too. Someone is going to have a flat-chested nude deleted because "it looks like cub."

and then the only way to "age the character up" would be to make sure that the boobs are huge.

Just watch.

It will happen.

I can so see that happening actually

FA probably lost something like 300 or more members I bet :P

And donations will dry up, and the site sill be in the same situation as now, worrying about money.

we live in the alternate reality

have you read the forum post about this? or just jumping on the bandwagon?

I've been trying to get concrete answers in the forum.

I have. But the answers I've been getting are vague at best. and highly able to be abused by overzealous FA staff at worst. (which is usually the case.....)

as posted by dragoneer here. http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa.....-Policy-on-Cub

The New Policy on Cub

People have been hearing murmurs and rumblings for the past few days. Many "what ifs". As many of you have heard, we have been working on new AUP and TOS revisions. We've been planning these updates to the AUP for some time - revise descriptions, make it clearer and more concise. What we didn't plan on was removing cub art. That changed last week.

Firstly, let us explain the situation: AlertPay dropped us. We have been having issues accepting payment processors for some time to fund the website, as any reputable company we've contacted has given us the thumbs down when it comes to our content. Specifically, they have only ever had issue with one particular kind of content: cub art. Everything else has been fine, but companies want to distance themselves from that grey area because it makes people uncomfortable.

AlertPay canceled, and specifically cited cub art as the reason. We were given no options to appeal. With that cancellation, a fairly sizable amount of money in our balance from ads and donations have been lost, which has effectively crippled the website from having ways to fund itself long term. We will not be able to maintain and improve without a reliable payment processor at our backend, and that can not happen while they continually have a disagreement regarding certain specifics with what we host.

Right now we have to make a choice. Do we continue on with cub artwork and protect the artwork in the name of freedom of speech? Or do we remove the one Achilles heel that has proven itself to be a liability and a frustration?

If we want to keep Fur Affinity alive we have no choice but to remove cub art. It's been a limiting factor for us, and it's been impacting us for a while. But now it's become something we can no longer turn our eye away from.

What happened to us can happen to any other furry site out there. It's a grim reality, and when it comes to grey areas, corporations don't want the legal risk. I don't blame them. As frustrating as it is, I in no way blame them taking the actions they did.

This is a risk we all knew was a possibility.

So, with that, and this update... we have no choice but to prohibit mature cub art on Fur Affinity. The site must come first. We know this will impact some users more than others, we know it will be stressful and frustrating, but we have no choice in the matter.

We hope you can understand our position on the matter.

What IS Being Removed
Adult cub art, or images where the character age is specifically stated to be under 18 in a mature situation. Artists will have 21 days as of this update to remove any and all content from their gallery. After that time, the administration will begin to remove submissions from galleries which violate the new rules. These will not count against your FA record, or be held against you in any way.

Images of cub will be removed, and those borderline will be removed at admin discretion. Our interest is in preserving artistic integrity wherever possible.

What IS NOT Being Removed
Cub art that's not mature. Again, unless it's pornographic in nature, it is fine and well within the site rules. I'll repeat that for a third time: clean cub art is fine.

We will also not be removing mature/adult chibi art, stylized images or pictures that are drawn in otherwise cutesy styles.

Harassment Against Artists
Because this is a sensitive issue, we're issuing this warning: harassment against cub artists will result in a three (3) month ban from FA. If you have a track record on FA, are on the list of usual suspects, have previous bans for harassment or serious violations, the ban will be escalated to permanent.

We will not accept harassment of any sort. Zero tolerance. You have a choice. You can make comments or you can keep them to yourselves.

I read that too, and the over 1000 comments after. I've been reading the whole thing from the beginning.

But there's that one line right there:

images where the character age is specifically stated to be under 18 in a mature situation.

which has a definite problem for fanart of characters that are cannonly not 18+. Meaning just about EVERY fanart piece can fall under the ban, if a staff member decides to be their usual asshat selves.

And the only answer I have received is "age them up" which cannot be anymore vague as to how to keep banhappy/deletecrazy staff members from deleting things that they just don't like, regardless.

Quoting the OP STILL DOESN'T ANSWER THE ROOT PROBLEM I HAVE, THAT THE WORDING IS AS SUCH THAT A STAFF MEMBER CAN DELETE ANYTHING THAT THEY -THINK- IS CUB, WHETHER OR NOT IT REALLY IS MEANT OT BE CUB ART.

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa.....=1#post2263365

We'll have some more advanced guidelines definitions up in a few days. We'll have to talk them out admin side.For those curious/unsure what action to take... give us 2 or 3 days, we'll have guidelines. You're under no pressure to clear your gallery overnight.

Even 'Neer admits that the current wording needs work, because it's too vague, Foxtrack.

Umm... I don't know.

My beef is the fact that all of my furry Forza 3 cars were deleted from my gallery on the basis that they were a violation, when other people do it and not get hassled at all. Just hit Forza 3 in the search tab.

We live and die by reports. We can't go searching for every violation under the sun.

If you see it. Report it.

Just suggessting..

What's next, ban of 34 stuff??

Cub stuff was banned becuase of money and our inability to keep any sort of donation service open while hosting adult cub work. No one cares about normal porn.

I guess this calls for a "Hallelujah" chorus.

rule34 of characters like Amy Rose or Krytal, or Fifi LeFume, or the like are being called into question because of rule "images where the character age is specifically stated to be under 18 in a mature situation."

if they take out the pokemon porn I'm not sure how much art there is left to stay here for :/

It's not like I'd leave or anything but like... if there's nothing I like why stay...

No one is twisting your arm to stay. feel free to go to the sites that host the type of visuals you have interest in.

yup, already on sofurry

What...?

Is this all people can do is whine?

Does anybody, once, stop to ask how much FurAffinity costs to run? Do these cub-porn-uploaders understand that FA allowing cub porn (pedophilia) to be hosted could cost them a lawsuit - a very real and possibly very costly lawsuit? And then, on a related note, all of these people bitching and griping because they can’t upload stuff anymore because it is violation of AUP... do they perhaps stop and think what kind of bandwidth cap FA might have, and what it might cost if it is exceeded?

Like seriously, people, get a life. Somebody is paying to run FA. From what I have gathered, it costs a lot to run FA, too.

It is their site. They are paying for it, so they get to say what kind of participation on it is acceptable, and what isn’t acceptable. And if you ask me, what they’ve set as their new AUP precedents are more than fair.

So boo-hoo-hoo, whaaaaaaaaaa!!! and whimper. You don’t like it; ask FA’s staff sometime how much it costs them to maintain the site. How much bandwidth does it consume for you to upload dozens upon dozens pictures of your toys, your Second Life models, pictures of your pretty eyes or your fricken feet or that ugly mole you found in your armpit.

Get a clue, people. FA’s staff lays out a lot of work and money to keep this site going. So maybe think about that before you start giving them shit when they ask you to respect their wishes.

Yeah (rumblenicker). Frickin kids.

It ain’t about what you can’t upload. It is about FA trying to keep their (doubtlessly insane) expenses under control!

We have run it by our lawyers before. Cub porn =/= pedophillia. And it's not a lawsuit we are concerned about since people have attempted to bring this very thing up in court and have had rulings about it struck down as being unconstitutional.

The problem here is, we fund FA through donations. Donations that we store by using a private company (in this case alert pay) If said Private company doesn't like what we host, they pull their support for us, and we have no way to accept said money.

And thats what happened.

There is no moral reasoning behind this ban, it's a ban becuase this subject keeps hitting us right where it hurts. In our wallets. and if people want FA to keep going then this sacrifice has to be made.

We have run it by our lawyers before. Cub porn =/= pedophillia. And it's not a lawsuit we are concerned about since people have attempted to bring this very thing up in court and have had rulings about it struck down as being unconstitutional.

The problem here is, we fund FA through donations. Donations that we store by using a private company (in this case alert pay) If said Private company doesn't like what we host, they pull their support for us, and we have no way to accept said money.

And thats what happened.

There is no moral reasoning behind this ban, it's a ban becuase this subject keeps hitting us right where it hurts. In our wallets. and if people want FA to keep going then this sacrifice has to be made.

I stand corrected. Didn’t know. Nevertheless, my ire remains for these people who come up to whine and bitch because FA has made a policy change. It is beyond annoying. It’s outrageous.

But that is a thing that I have found common in this fandom: people all over the place demanding that their niches and interests be catered to, regardless of the costs incurred by others who provide services like FA. I went and looked at the thread on FA’s forums about the AUP changes, and I was disgusted by the many of the replies the thread received. If it wasn’t people pontificating at each other over the issue, it was people outright, outrageously threatening to go to other sites because they couldn’t get what they wanted or calling FA’s staff a bunch of ludicrous Nazis for denying them what they demanded.

FA is frickin free. Moreover, it is private property. Go into any man’s house and take a dump in the middle of his living room floor and see what happens to you. The only reason people are doing it here, is because people know they can get away with it. Internet Anonymity. Try to have a little respect for what people are providing for you.

Get invited into a man’s house and to enjoy his hospitality, and the first thing that happens when something goes down that isn’t liked, is people spit in the owners’ faces.

Yeah, this is our fandom. Get some pride, people. Have a little respect for people are doing for you.

Thanks for the heads up on this, anyway, Pinkuh. I’ve seen sites that take actions like this without telling anybody. It is good to see that FA cares enough to let people know.

Rock on, guys. I do not envy at all, the amount of work you guys have to put in to keep this place going.

I can only sense that you are going to have a lot of work to do with this.

Good luck handling this. c.c

and now inkbunny too XD

I do wish they'd stop changing the AUP. It's most confusing. D8

Unfortunately the AUP is a living document XD it will be changed from time to time in order to best suit the site @_@

"affected works" =3

STOPPIT PINKUH. DON'T RUIN THE FANDOM THERE, TOO.

WHAT FANDOM... WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT... I AM SO CONFUSED

I lurv you.

I just don't want to see SF destroyed by cp, either. I could care less about IB, though.

Just keep drawing, don't mention the word "cub" and just add

"all characters are over +18" disclaimer in on the pic or/and the description text.

I hope that helps. :/

What, if anything, are you planning on doing to the people that are posting all of the hate journals saying "Glad these sick fucks got what they deserved"? (Not actually from a real journal mind you, but this is the general attitude that I got from skimming my journals).

While I completely understand the reasoning behind the ban, I think that the FA staff needs to take a zero-tolerance policy on these people because they are very annoying and rude. Seeing people gloating over something they had no part in makes my blood boil and I can only imagine how the people who were into this feel with seeing all of the hate coming their way.

If you find one, report it and we will deal with it. It's that simple.

We are taking a zero tolerance policy on the people, but we depend on people like you to report them so we can see what is going on :)

GOD PINK, YOU ARE SUCH A POOP HEAD >[

What will you do when AlertPay decides furry is bestiality?

Alert pay is no longer our provider... they have outright refused. We are currently looking for alternatives

Oh, OK.