I pooted a little v.v

your poot gave atleast 8 people boners.

poot fanart boners are banned.

WHYYYYY?!?!?!? Where will I get my jollies now?!

the dollar store ^^

No...no...I can't go there anymore...

then 7-11! They can hel- wait.. why not?

Because! *Flees and flails arms as he runs off*

Oh HELL no!
*Hops on your back*

I lol'd at this converstion. Thanks for that!

No prob! Now I sleeps
Zzzzz Zzzzz

same

same here

same here and there

JOCKEY!

Nah I am a HUNTER
*pounce*
A gay one ^^

An asshunter. *thinks it's funny at 2 in the morning*

2 am!

rotdlmao XD

^^

You just made me lawl myself off the couch. XD

Poot Fanart Boners are now a meme.

POOTIS POOTIS POOTIS!!! Sahaha..vich, sandvich

But I'm easily impressionable and want to make journals about the first thought that comes to mind!

same here.lol

buffy XD

hehe^^

THAT MAKES YOU PERSON.

We need the anti-drama llamas! where are they? they're slacking...

i ate them for dinner

That's not a nice thing to say. Even though they may not like me it is just not right for people to be eaten.

BUT YOU TASTE LIKE TASTY

lol, trolls make me lol neer XD... they think by causing an uproar in the fandom, they win, when in fact, people like us just laugh at them XD

I guess.....


you will laugh forever.

I think I lik you ^^

It's mostly the commissioning of copyrighted materials that worries me. If the owning companies wanted to, couldn't they try to press charges for people making money on their characters?

YES

legally, yes. but unless you're marketing yourself as a PAID FANART ARTIST all over your website there's really not much proof you got paid or any real motivation to go after you. so... they're not gonna go after you, pretty much. the doujinshi trade in japan is kind of a huge example of this. people actually sell books based on legally licensed works over there. we can't actually do that over here.

I actually think that might be a gray area. I don't know the law (plainly) on that particular issue, but I think there might be enough distinction between a product with illegal branding and a piece of artwork made by request. Bands definitely aren't sued for playing covers by request.

Well, the _trademark_[1] issue at question is that of 'trading under'.

The quick way of describing the line is:

If you are buying a picture of <trademarked character> that happens to be drawn by Bob, it's a violation.
If you are buying a picture drawn by Bob that happens to be of <trademarked character>, it isn't.

The key part is that the trademarked material is not what you are buying.



[1] Character copyright is _not_ granted by Berne, the US grants it but the test is very strict and has never been passed in court.[2] Money also has nothing to do with the legalities of copyright issues.

[2] All the cases based on character copyright are either before the US became a Berne nation, (and wiped out all standing precedent), or had the character copyright stipulated.

Similar to what I did when I was selling CDs with music on them. I never sold people a copy of say ... Journey's Greatest Hits album...


I sold people a Memorex CD that just happened to contain Journey's Greatest Hits.

Remember, that it has to be a fair price for the material and that it's the real intent that matters, not the official reason.

So that dodge doesn't work with WORM media that has been used, because the clear reason for the sale is the creative content. It also fails because, even if you escape the trademark issue, your example is a clear copyright violation.


With new artwork, you avoid copyright, and there is something real to sell that does not rely on the trademark, (the artist's skill).

Well in a sense that does make some sense, because it wasn't Bob's intent in the second portrayal to be made specific in the request. He wasn't paid to make the image for someone just the image already existed. It's still a gray area in the fact if he should take money for it in any case. The first one I see too often on this website where someone is getting paid to make characters in those situations and it's very debatable that they even should.

Personally if you want to draw fanart of a copyrighted character with one of your own, it should be a request only.

they could but they would probably lose, porn and fanart is covered under the "Parody" category and as such drawing it for cash is not illegal.

Its tards like  Blitza that on every submission say "____ copyright by me" and it makes me rage.

everyone says "copyright by me" anyways. but like everyone, he forgets that copyrights work only inside the site. ONLY. unless he bought them, in that case, yes.

Though what makes it sad in blitza case is that he has a link to his ED article in his user page.

Thiiiiiiiiis!

There are a bunch of issues here which put pornographic fanart in a sheltered harbor, compared to other things such as pirating or misrepresentation of the company in question:

1. Style. Is the fanart drawn in the style of the original work? If yes, the artist is in trouble. If no, then the company has less ability to win a court case.

2. Parody. Some judges believe that all fanart falls under "parody", so long as it does not violate specific restrictions, all of which are up to the judge's personal interpretation. Companies have a hard time fighting parody law for this very reason: It exists primarily to protect things the companies do not want to see.

3. Representation of Company. As long as the company is not being misrepresented (that is, as long as the artwork does not look like it was drawn by the company or as long as the artist is not an employee of theirs), the company cannot litigate for misrepresentation.

4. Type of sale involved. A personal sale of a picture between two people is not the same as the artist making a art CD and selling the CD. After all, it is perfectly legal for an artist to draw a picture for someone else, and it is legal to sell art on a personal level regardless of content. You can't be making "a lot" of money off of it, it has to be something small and relatively innocent.

5. Fair Use. Fair Use is of very limited use in terms of adult artwork, but it still poses a threat to companies seeking to disrupt pornographic fanart. A good lawyer can tapdance all over the company using a combination of Fair Use, Parody, and Representation.

6. Relative situational information. Odds are, the company won't go after an artist who is otherwise harmless. It takes something that grabs the company's attention to get them to act.

7. Exposure. Even Disney's employees have drawn material the company hates on their free-time. They just don't post it, or if they do, they separate it from Disney.

8. Relevance. Fanart of a show just made will attract more attention than fanart of a show made 10 years ago from a company.

9. Company rules. Many companies, particularly Disney, have rules forbidding their employees to look at fanart. Any pornographic artwork created as fanart will thus likely fly under the radar.

You could debate your number three there in the fact like for seven in how a company wants its characters seen. Sexually made art of copyrighted characters that are normally seen as G to PG-13 rated in adult situations was clearly not the original intent. As a corporation can step in to protect its image of the character and order a cease and desist, even if you are using fair use. Maybe that's why disney doesn't allow the looking at fanart? They have a certain image they want their characters to be portrayed and do not want them "corrupted" in a sense.

OMG A SHADOW

OMG A TAILS

OMG A FURRY SOMETHING

ZOMG TALIESIN!!! *pounce-grope* n,^,n

But but but but but that one guy said that it might, so it MUST be happening!

HAPPENING ALL DAY.

It's funny, I see this stuff happening (or similar stuff) real-time, and I tell them "Uh, that's not what's happening", and they KNOW I know what's going on...

...and don't listen to me.

they should listen to you, you're right.

Happening...

...Happening everywhere...

Thank you, Neer! I posted a journal on this myself. People really need to actually read, seach for info or ask someone that's on the FA staff, before they start freaking about rumors.

TO much of the populace, reading is very overrated. They would rather have others think for them and be paranoid.

Seems like it. Laziness seems rampant and no wonder why things go down the toilet when almost everyone is like this.

What is it with people being so fickle and lazy these days?

well pinkuh said it was banned, and they're a mod.
that's why people freaked out

Ah, I see. Didn't read that anywhere though. I think Pinkuh was typing to fast and that and forgot to put in "Not" before "banned", due to stress and rushing to answer so many questions. Summercat in the one post in the forum said that only adult sonic porn was banned if it looked cubish. That's where all these rumors started, since I guess sonic adult art = fan art as a whole. Though Neer and them are discussing the matter. People just need to wait for offical word instead of panicking. Also if you read down to Pinkuh's replies. If all fan art was banned. He/she would leave FA.

the whole debacle started because the way pinkuh worded it, i think.
At least, I'm pretty sure. I read the forum and the way they worded it made it seem like ALL sonic porn was being banned (not just cub ones, but no matter if they looked aged or not) . So people naturally freaked out about both sonic art and all their other characters pontentiallyh being permabanned from the site.

I read what pinkuh said. All i'm saying is from what i saw of the journals and first hand reading the forum thread that it was pinkuh's post that caused a panic that spread from sonic to everything else.

Yeah, I can see that wording is everything and people in that position need to word things carefully, cause things like this can happen. But he is human just like all of us and makes mistakes, like we all have. Though Neer is like the god of FA, since he owns it and is head admin. All decisions on what to be banned and not ban go through him, with discussion with the other mods/admis and he is the only one that decides what happens, since Pinkuh can't say this is banned and that's the end of it without Neer's approval. Just like he did this journal to kill the rumors. So people just need to chill till he says whats going to happen, instead of feeding into the rumorz and raging.

I don't see him being more like a god just because he owns FA. he owns the site, he's a cool guy, that's what i see him as. I think people see the mods as neer's right hand and that they go through him before posting, that's why people worried. I know mods make mistakes. I was an active mod of a big gaming site for quite some time so i know how that is. i understand why people were worried, since FA is one of the best social artwork sites out there. but agreed. drama needs to settle down and people need to chill before freaking out *nods*

Well Neer had the "BAN HAMMER!" That's why I said he's a god of FA. X3 Also some head admins do think they are gods of their websites and people have to do as they say, since the power goes to their head. Not saying Neer does that, but other people do think he does that and abuses his power. When all he's doing is what's best for the site, even if he hates to do it. Though yeah... You get my main point that people just need to chill and not feed into rumors stemmed from one thing that they've heard.

... god. This post is just delicious. For all the wrong reasons.

it was more than just wording, she basically made the statement that sonic adult art was banned if it looked like sonic and had to be aged to pass. She went on to clarify this, that females had to have breasts and wider hips and was kinda unclear about males other than to say look older and have broader shoulders, which is REALLY unclear. Basically she said she would decide. and then went on to pass judgements on people's art. That's the one I read.

Well I didn't see that one as I said. I saw the one that Summercat posted on the clerification thread. That said that artist had to basically change their art syle to age up the sonic characters to make them look more like adults then kids. Though the main point I'm made is that not all fan art is being banned. Cause it seems one of the sonic fans went and said that since sonic adult art is being banned. All fan art is being banned. Which it's not. Plus as I said above. Pinkuh isn't head admin or the owner of the site, so he can't ban things outright without going through Neer first. Neer is the one that makes all the final decisions, after he and the FA staff have a discussion about issues. People need to remember this. Also if you read on this journal, if all fan art was banned. Pinkuh would leave the site.

well it should be banned. They are applying weird standards that any common person not in the fandom would not recognize. Sonic is a child, but Shadow is not or is he, he's canonically 50, but is Sonic with different colors? How is lucario feral but sonic is not?

That's your opinion on it should be banned. We all have a dislinking for things on websites and in life it's self. That's why I go with, "To each their own" and leave it at that.

I do not want it banned, but by their logic anything can be banned and it seems theyre just picking and choosing targets. The whole sonic thing is ridiculous and you did not answer my question, how is sonic cub because he's 15, but shadow is ok because he's 50, but LOOKS JUST LIKE SONIC WITH DIFFERENT COLORS

Well seems like all sonic arts that are adult/mature in nature are being banned, if they are drawn in the style that makes them look like kids or the orginal style people draw them in. Like Summercat said in the one thread. People just have to change their art style and draw them to make them look mature or make them look like adult, instead of kids. Also Neer is doing what is best for the site to keep it and it is his decision after all and if you don't like it. You can go to IB as FA is free to use, but people want to bitch and complain when things get banned when the whole website is on the line. Plus Neer and the FA team are still debating on what's going on with the whole sonic debate as nothing in the AUP says anything about adult sonic art that I have read yet, so calm down and wait to see what happens.

eh, he's not doing what is best for the site. I love how this is the ONLY option they claim to have. He could arrange to accept credit cards directly like most porn sites do, or probably half a dozen other options to receive payments.

So the website is not on the line.

No the AUP makes the ridiculous statement that art must be over 18 years old. None of my adult art is cub and very few of my non-adult art is cub, but the AUP could still ban pieces based on arbitrary decisions. And all fan art and all art based on anime and cartoons is also at risk. This is why people are mad.

This is wrong and ridiculous because:
1. It applies a human standard of aging to half-animal creatures, most of which do not even live to be 18
2. It has no standards by which to judge the age of an artwork other than someone says it is
3. The ultimate consequence is to ban all art that looks cute and have admins nazi patrolling galleries to delete what they "think" looks under 18, which could potentially be half the content of this site. (Keep in mind that most cartoon characteristics are adolescent ones: is disproportionate heads, large eyes, small noses and mouths.) That's almost all anime, cartoons and fanart based on them.

Why people are upset is FA is asking you to remove content because they up and arbitrarily decided it was cub. Sonic is, Lucario and Renamon are not (for now). Although the average person couldn't distinguish any "age" difference between any of these characters.

or you have to lie about adult characters with different age spans. This character is 15 and lives to be 30, but no no no, FA says that's bad, so you have to lie about it on here.

So tell me exactly the real reason why Neer has already alienated 20% of his userbase for the good of the site, and as submissions start disappearing this number will undoubtably increase.

Why not just ban all porn like DA and then they can take the easy route and use paypal? FA can survive that right? And all the anti-porn people will be happy that are applauding elimination of it step by step.

Well a lot of people don't have credit cards, checking accounts or even debit cards for that matter. Most of the sites like AP and PP don't do the adult art thing, due to fetish materials like cub art or other adult art on this site, cause if they did. AP would have let Neer have an account after they removed the cub porn, but they didn't let Neer have the account back or make another one. Basically what Neer has to do is make a paysite for something like this like IB is doing in order to save FA, cause once he goes with another paysite that's like AP or PP. Someone will just give them a link to some kinda porn on here and FA will be without a paysite, cause the paysite doesn't want to be involved. Plus not all cub art and fan art isn't going to be deleted and banned. Just the adult art that people go, "that's cub art to me" will be deleted and that, but that's on a case by case basis as said by one of the FA staff as they'll look into the matter. I think you're just one of those that are pissed off at all the wrong reasons and are fighting a losing battle with what's going to happen. I would just suggest you going to IB, if you're not happy here. Just like all the other people that are QQing, due to the bans. IMO and others have said and understand. See that Neer is doing what's best to keep the site up and running. Cause he could be a complete asshole and have the site note be free anymore and put a fee on it for using it.

eh again....if they dont have credit cards/debit cards or checking accounts, it would be hard to donate anyway, so that's a red herring.

I do not think what they are doing in the best interest of the board, kicking out 2 of the categories they fostered. I would never have done sonic art to begin with if they had not had that category, so they encouraged it and then pull the rug out from those people.

Yes, he could charge a fee to use the board and have it shut down shortly. Very few would pay.

and again its not just cub art, its just picking and choosing arbitrarily. Sonic is in no way "cub" to me. Theyre typical cartoons. yet pikachu sex would definately be such, feral or not. I love how no on can tell me any obvious differences between sonic art and lucario or renamon art, except esoteric fandom things or ages listed in rare fandom tomes of lore.

Well the nice thing about sites like paypal and alertpay is you can still have an account and use it to donate, if you have people give you money to that account. If you want to put money in it yourself. Then you'll have to have a debit card, checking account or a credit card. So it's not a red herring at all.

Well that's because things have changed. They can allow something one time and ban it the next, due to current circimstances.

Exactly. That's why he's keeping it free and by doing so. People have to go by the rules. Weither they like it or not, cause any other sites have rules that are the same or a little different then this site.

Well sonic art may not be cub art to you, but it is to a lot of other people. Plus I think because the main creaters of the sonic character put an "age" on them. Where an as pokemon they don't have an age at all. That's why sonic art is cub art and pokemon is not, due to the characters having or not having an age. Since that's what Neer and them are going by. Though Neer and them are still trying to figure out how to update the AUP, so I'd say wait and see what they do with sonic Adult/mature art.

Thanks for clearing that up.

It's so easy for a rumor, whether true or not, to cause a major shitstorm, especially around this fandom.

i skipped a person...

anyways..

Ever wonder if the fandom has it's own fandom, thats like a rumor in a rumor

WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER

a dream inside a dream inside a dream?

OH SHIT DOUBLE INCEPTION

So the saying is we're peeling back the layers of the furry fandom onion? What's at it's center?

It's anyone's guess. But I have no idea! (porncoughcough) Nah, I really think that it would be the people. The community of FA.

Strangely enough porn was the first thing I thought of too.

Great minds think alike. ;)

yo dawg we heard you like drama so we put a fandom in yo fandom so you can spread rumors while you spread rumors

YES!!!! Win! :P

sometimes I wish no one would post a journal for 4 days after they hear/read anything

i agree

I wouldn't say "anything", because some things need an immediate reaction. Plus, forbidding people from expressing knee-jerk reactions can be harmful. The best thing you can do, as a person, is to take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Keep in mind at all times that they might just be overreacting with the immediate nature of the subject. Do not fault them for being human.

thats why I say sometimes. People really should take a deep breath and wait before they speak or post about things.

XD My point is that they ought to be able to make those knee-jerk reactions. Stopping and thinking is important, but those initial reactions are crucial for finding out where the message needs work.

:3

yes. i'm bored.

I just posted one XD Reasonable people stay calm Neer, but thank you for your concern ;-3

MASS PANIC

BAN EVERYTHING, REGRET NOTHING.

some people just need to chill out a bit.

SHUT

DOWN

EVERYTHIIING

So sonic porn (for example since people are getting butt hurt specifically over that) is okay since it is fanart?

Most sonic art is still cub art, but we're working on clarifications to the policy right now.

i was actually wondering if poke'mon/digimon art was going to be banned or not, due to the recent sonic thing. was hearing some rumors via friends so i was just wondering what your thoughts along such were

Pokemon/digimon falls under Feral... so it's still peachy :) BRING ON THE PIKACHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

lol ok x3 thankies for the clarification x3 cause some friends brought up some good points about how it can be seen as cub and just got worried xP

thanks for the clarification, and yush, bring on the pikachu x3

I read that with Pikachu's voice in my head for the "PIKACHUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" lol

What I don't understand is if the age of the sonic characters are based on the age that Sega made, why can't those be changed by the fans when sometimes the gender of the characters set by Sega are sometimes changed? Now while I admit my source for this info is not the best *Lulz/furi* I read that they fall under some Simpson rule that they never age, yet I have seen episodes of the Simpson's where they were older. I guess I just don't understand how when the gender, personality, color, and size of these characters are all changed in fanart, age can't be. I love FA, and I understand why you guys are doing this for cub art. But sonic is one of the most mainstream furry characters of all time, and I worry about what this could do to the FA user base. I myself don't really care for soinic art, somes good somes not, but please at least try to make this work. I understand you admins are under alot of pressure and stress right now with whats all going on, but I feel I made a few good points and just wanted to share. I thank you guys for all the work you do, and hope you take to heart the fact many other people do to. But let sonic art live.

You can age them up that isn't an issue

This calms my nerves a lot, it really does. Thanks for reading my post and getting back to me, it means a lot. On a very, and I mean VERY random note, do you guys have snow in Green bay yet? There's tons in Milwaukee -.-

I am not in green Bay anymore XD

Ahhh well, now I feel like a idiot lol

Ironically we had snow in NC this Saterday :3

We needed more DX It would have been nice to get out of school today.

While getting out of school is always fun... Snow = salt. Salt = rusting the ever loving crap out the bottom of my car. Car rusted to hell = -$... winter is evil.

Well... I guess salt is evil since it rusts the car but winter is holy

I guess nowhere is safe from the evil of winter, sept maybe Cali or Florida. Vegas, Arizona? Man I need to move...

lucario and renamon are no more feral than sonic is. But it seems as if we're picking and choosing here.

I am not the one who creates the rules. Dragoneer is. I just enforce what he tells me.

well you guys are making judgements that the average non-fan would think is ridiculous. Let me ask you this....is shadow a cub also? He's canonically 50 or older and looks JUST like sonic with different colors? so do we have to age shadow as well? You are also applying a age to sonic and corresponding that to human ages. Dragoneer said this was "ridiculous" to do to canine furries, since dogs and wolves do not live to be 18. Hedgehogs only live to be 4-7 years old depending on species. How is a 15 year old hedgehog a cub?

and really I think the whole thing that FA depends on survival for this a little bit disingenuous. As has been suggested, why doesnt it take credit cards directly through a vendor? Ive ran adult sites and its really not that hard to do. If bestiality sites can take credit cards, I wouldn't think there would be a problem here. Or has no one thought of this?

It seems the anti-porn faction here is driving this.

Okay thanks hopefully some sonic fans will see this. Though whenever you do get it solved it will probably be the basis for just about any cartoon character like pokemon, digimon, ect. ect.

Actually it wont becuase Pokemon and Digimon are falling under the beast category, so they don't have the same limit on them :)

According to your own staff, all art featuring any character that isn't officially listed as 18+ is going to be treated as cub art, even if the character in question has been aged up by the artist and is visibly adult.

Despite early discussion in the now-locked cub policy discussion thread suggesting the exact opposite.

If the staff isn't being consistent on such issues, blaming the userbase for getting anxious that the banhammer is getting bigger is not the least bit fair.

For the record, I saw Pinkuh's clarification (in a below comment and wherever else) that aging up was acceptable, but that's not what was initially said. Misunderstandings and concern in the face of such flat statements are only to be expected.

It is just that most famous cartoons either are "underage" in cannon or look "young" because everyone and their mother draws things with a bigger head and big eyes when it comes to that.
Thank god there is finally a thread clarifying a lot of things though.

i looove your icon

Careful. It is underage.
Don't touch it!

OHGODOHGODOHGOD I TOUCHED IT WHAT WILL HAPPEN NOW

V&.

;_______;

It's okay, as long as you don't draw it.

D:

I have to wonder how many land mines are out there because of characters which are portrayed in the source material as both acting adult and looking adult, (with respect to the design style), but somewhere some marketdroid slapped on a mid-teen age because he thought it would help sales.

I feel the urge to comment on everyones comment too.

i l u

You ruined my dreams.

That's exactly what I was thinking too

Christ almighty why would someone do that

Interaction with the community. This is a message board after all. Sure, the title says "Journal", but it's technically a message board.

Read the responses. Most of them are pointless / add nothing. :/

What exactly IS if anything being banned? as far as i know it was characters under the age of 18 being drawn in sexual situations? people are getting all muddled as to whether this includes fan art rather than just cub. It really needs to be clarified in BIG BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS for the the general public.

http://forums.furaffinity.net/threa.....sonic-underage

Yeah I got THAT already. the problem was that there was so much bullshit regarding other types of fanart I wasn't sure exactly what was going on.

ALL FIXED NOW THO \o/ *informed*

let me cut myself with this thread.

[/cut]

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4852230

Posting it again.

This is why I never assume. I just remain calm

RUMURRS CONTROL

CRUISE CONTROL FOR OPINIONS

I didn't hear anything about this; I must not be watching anyone panicky enough. ;P

thank you! ok i love the admins here, why? cause you guys actually address the rumors early on!!! so i thank you soooooo much, i am sooooo tired of people blowing out of hands with things and its great to see a group with admins that will catch things :D

Pffff

Shadows, fuck'em.

That gives me an idea...

what-HAVEYOUDONE

I like your idea...

I HAVE DONE SCIENCE!

You're a gentleman and a scholar...

No! I dont believe in science! Everything must be caused by the giant flying noodle!!!

This idea's power is maximum!!

OMG a follower of the flying spaghetti monstor! FTW!
...
...
nah, WTF

You see Neer, People need rage fuel to continue to fuel rage.

make some fuel by accident, cause a shitstorm of unnessary rage that never makes sense even if it does make sense.

like everyone says. more then 20% of the fandom just used their ragefuel and wheeled out of here on thier bandwagon of angry citizens.

they raged because pinkuh said it was banned (they said all sonic art) so people flipped shit. which i can understand to an extent because they were seeing it as sonic is banned in general, what other characters will be banned?

So what  Pinkuh said really doesnt have alot of Merit to it? Or is that a different topic?

People are saying "All fan art is being banned" when it's really porn of the characters as they currently are in a specific style.

Ah alright, I was just curious because I got flooded with "B'AWWW Pinkuh's forum post this and that Sonic blergh" journals and wasnt 100% on the whole ordeal

they can't make it any more clearer then that should.

Its still in the air. They are working to really clarify things.

Thank you for Clarifying this for me ^_^

Of course what I said has merit to it. People just are misreading it or falling onto the "PINKUH IS A REDARD" Bandwagon.

I never said fanart was banned, and never WILL say fanart is banned (the day it gets banned is the day I quit becuase damnit I draw ALLOT of fanart)

What I said was "Any character who is stated to be under age in canon, is off limits when drawn in the canon style (Aka Drawing Tails as he appears in the games/comics but attempting to state he is 18.) However, you can age the characters up, and make them look 18 and you will still be fine. (This means a slight style shift and the ability to show the character as mature."

My stance has never wavered from what neer has stated. I was just tired andmessed up my forum post the other night.

DONT KILL ME!!! T_T

I meant no ill will, I was just trying to grasp clarification on whether it was a Snafu of an admin or another furry drama group blowing something simple out of epic proportion. Im just trying to be good and grab information for myself to make my own descisions.

I have a group?! THIS is SO AWESOME!!! I've never had a fan-club before! OMG my BFF is gonna be SOOOOOO jealous!!!

Not gonna lie... this tickled me.

This

I will try not to XD

this suddenly made me want to draw an example... using Tails from Sonic. non-adult, for safety, but just show how you can "age Tails up" :3

Thanks. That's pretty much what I thought you meant. :) People just like to jump on a little phrase and blow it out of proportion.

... in all due respect... where is the line drawn for 'cannon' style?

A great deal of clarification is needed on some points of the new AUP changes. A lot of people are kind of still up in the air about whether or not their works are allowed, banned, or will eventually be banned.
The whole cub thing kind of blindsided you guys, so I can understand the scramble you must be in trying to get things resorted. Hopefully it'll get worked out soon so folks can go back to spreading rumors about art thieves instead of rumors about new bans. ^.=.^

I have a forum post going where people can ask their questions :)

So I've seen. So far the changes don't impact my works, but it's useful to know so that I don't get suckered in by the rumor mills too.

lol I knew it hopefully the rumor about femboys isnt true to XD

EEK! A shadow!

Wait, what did my boyfriend do?

you have a mosquito suckling your blood from one of your nostrils. EEK.

I ain't scured a nuthin! Except cheesecake... It might make me explode ^^

Wait what? o_O

PANIC, EVERYONE PANIC!

journals about banning have been banned >:(

How -dare- people suddenly think FA might reverse policies and ban a major sub-culture of furry fan art because of financial/legal considerations after defending it for years?!?

Where do people get these -crazy- ideas?!

I haven't even heard that rumour.
(also, hi zade :3 )

hi zipper

So... what about something that's got adult content in it, but is clearly not meant to be pornographic? I'm talking something like one of the story lines from "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit" or something like the novel "Flowers in the Attic" which involves an incestuous relationship between an underage brother and sister. The former is considered modern entertainment while the later is considered classic literature.

In short, would I be banned for posting a story that had a description of the sexual abuse of a minor that was written to be disturbing and revolting as opposed to attractive and sexy?

rumours are just for create panic, thanks for put clear that.
This will make regret to these people that wants leave the site.

Dragoneer porn is now banned. =B

i am not that gullible!

If fanart was banned wouldb't be here.

If fanart were banned "I" wouldn't be here.... LOL

Wait a minute... so all we have to do to get Pinkuh to leave is ban fanart?!?!?!?

NOOOO YOU'RE TOO EPIC

F**k the haters.

"This is rumor control, here are the facts:..."

I CONTROL RUMOURS.

THIS RUMOUR

WAS MADE FOR ME.

I WAS JUST MAKING AN ALIENS 3 REF GOSH

:3

I WAS MAKE A REF OF MY OWN. but i lost the title in a hole that was made for me.

glad your making clarificatons...although i do think upping the age of the characters completely changes their look and style...which isnt always a good thing...(i understand your situation with alertpay tho)

Thank god someone has a clear head.

it is made of diamonds

I feel like I'm missing something here. Panic?

do not-

DO NOT TOUCH THAT BUTTION

Thank fuck for that.

mmmm

yes

mmmm yes mmmm yesmmmmmyesmmmm

So if I draw fan art of Dora the Explorer getting fisted by Captain Planet, things will be okay since its fan art?

not quite, because dora is still considered a minor. If you age her up, however....

lol

It is if dora has gratuitous amounts of pubic hair, a monocle, a mustache and a tophat.

I was hoping for something shiny. I'll continue my wait.

So Pokemon and Digimon can stay right? Just as long as its fan made chars?

So Mewfii, and my others, can stay because she, and the others, are different from the originals...am I right?

Pokemon and Digimon fall under Feral/beast. they are still allowed, and do not fall under the cub ban

Whew!!

Oh and there is one other place I posted about something like this...

In Forces...???....well the guy who likes vore and has an acid Renamon...

so lucario is a beast, but sonic is not?

Thats the way Neer has me enforcing it yes.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1920741/

...You sir, win one billion internets for that.

that is a fantastic blank comment sir

Omg~ FA is banning furry art! I'm outraged! *outrages*

Yeah, I figured you guys were still working on this since an announcement wasn't made. It still doesn't effect me, but still, it would be extra awesome to get some clarification on the matter.

... Sorry *Steps out from his shadow* >_>

*Jumps when he sees his shadow*

It's your own fault, you know.

You broke our trust with the banning of of multiple kinds of content. I don't just mean cub porn, but digital art as well, possibly others forms of content which I am not aware of yet. Now that we don't trust you, it's very easy to believe any old rumor about you banning yet another form of content.

In order to keep the website running, you sacrificed your integrity. Was it worth it?

i say it was a great idea personally i see fa dieing which i hope never happens if they didnt band cub art like that

what did he ban besides cub art?

loli and shota are the only things I can think of that he'd be talking about... which are actually VERY similar if not the same thing

I know that an artist called drages got singled out, his artwork pulled, and he was eventually banned. The content he got banned over was 3D computer animation. Apparently because the models he used weren't original or sufficiently modified from stock models. Apparently the admins have the god-like power to determine whether the models used were original. I'm roughly aware of how many man-hours drages had put into his animations, too many hours for his work to be considered "tracing".

http://www.furaffinity.net/user/drages/

Did he make /everything/ himself, or did he use some stock stuff from any generic thing like Second Life? That's the determining line.


Google Sketchup models are allowed, for example. Lego Builder models are not. Your own 3D models are allowed. Stuff from Second Life is not. I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say. xD

It wasn't lego builder models nor Second Life models, but they were stock models from some 3rd party source. I understand what the rules are, more or less, but not necessarily why they are. In some cases, like the rules on digital art, an explanation of the reasoning behind the rules should probably be posted with the rules themselves, if only to answer the questions which come up.

I don't know, is the fact that you're still here and that we still have all the art mean anything? They sacrificed their integrity for EVERYBODY. You know for a goddamn fact you'd be bitching if he didn't, QQing that the site is going down because we have no way to fund it. Now ragequit FA if you don't like it.

To the artists who can't post that kind of content here, to the viewers who seek that kind of content here, this site is effectively down. To those of us not affected, there is now a fear, which some will not admit to, that maybe soon the kind of content they enjoy and/or create, will be next on the chopping block.

Any community which sacrifices some or even one of its individuals for the greater good has failed as a community; the purpose of community is to protect its individual members, all of them, and it is the burden of its leaders to carry out that purpose.

Well what do you expect of the biggest site there is? More people = harder to protect everybody. This is a country sized site, not a town. This is the equivalent of real life...it's impossible to protect everybody in a country. Ideally that would be the best way for a country to run. But ideals never work out because people have free wills and minds, and are willing to use those to their advantage at anytime they feel like it. You're trying to get AN IDEAL to work on a site that exists IN REAL LIFE.

You're failing to distinguish between very different problems a community faces. It's not possible to keep everyone absolutely safe; mishaps happen. It's also likely impossible that there will never be those in the community who knowingly commit trespasses against its fellow members; those people have got to go.

However, it is very possible for a community to avoid throwing some of its members to the wolves, if you'll pardon the expression, to keep the rest safe. What it takes is the community standing up as a whole, and either surviving as a whole or dying as a whole. If individual members sacrifice themselves, it's their choice, and a noble act. If others sacrifice them to keep their own butts safe, or just do nothing to stop said sacrifice, then there's nothing noble about that at all. It's a betrayal.

Yes, this is real life, and yes, I'm trying to achieve an ideal in real life. I'm not foolish for that.

You contradicted yourself.

Any community which sacrifices some or even one of its individuals for the greater good has failed as a community

Yet you stated that sacrifices WILL be made. Come back when you don't contradict yourself. I'd rather not argue with somebody who hasn't thought his argument all the way through.

Ahem, show me the quote where I said a sacrifice will be made?

The fear that you speak of pertains to those who like something thats a bit out there stuff like gore or rape or anything that may fall under non consensual acts. I am not saying ban that stuff. However, many people truly dont care about the issue. As it has been repeated time and time again in this journal alone, this rumor about fanart is not really true as it stands. They are trying to ammend it to the best they can.

However,you say that the purpose of a community is to protect its individual members. You should keep in mind that this site is one of the biggest furry communities out there, if not the biggest. I'm sure thats thousands of furs. Now put yourself in place of Dragoneer's shoes. If you had to take care of a site such as FA, with all the costs, keeping mind of all the rules, keeping things in some kind of order, could you honestly say that you will look after every single one of 10k+ furs in the community?

Ay, it may be better to keep everyone in the community instead of sacrificing them and ay it is the burden of the leaders. However it must be kept in mind that those leaders are only human like us. As much as they would like to avoid sacrificing anyone it is not possible with so many people.

Furthermore you tell of how aforementioned animator was banned for something like not using original models are something like that. You also testify that he (I will assume for now that they are male. Correct me if I am wrong) spend long hours working on it so it couldnt possibly be traced. In saying that I took a look on his page with the link you provided. He may not have "traced" the models but he says on his that he uses [b]premade models[b]. You are saying that the admin said that his work wasnt "sufficiently modified from stock model". In other words, those premade models werent modified enough to be usable for the site. I am not saying that he was a bad animator, nor can I say that I have seen his work for myself. What I can say is that based on what you have told us, and based on what I could find on the matter, the rules were broken he was banned for them. Simple as that. I personally do not know the rules for animations of the like since I am not an animator, however if it wasnt against the rules there wouldnt have been anyone banned. Thats my stance on that.

Here's the rub: why does the rule on computer-rendered art even exist? At best, it could be about copyright issues, but then there's creative commons to consider. It's not enough to say those are the rules and everyone must follow them; there must at least be a rational basis for the rules existing.

You are right there probably is a rational basis for the rule's existence. However if you want to actually figure out the rationale behind the rule, you will have to ask Dragoneer himself. As it stands now though, it has to be excepted. Until further notice, that is the rule that is in place and since it has been made a rule then there is a reason for them to do it.[i] It could have been legal reasons perhaps copyright, maybe something else; I cant tell you. But again, it remains that Dragoneer and whoever else made the rules had a reason to create it. It cannot be argued that before these past weeks FA has been a very easy going, very liberating site in terms of the art posted, ay? If such a rule exists even with FA as easy going as it is or, in some people's opinion, [i]was, then there would be a good reason, ay?

I have asked him. I got no reply back.

Well, its not my place to speculate over his reasons for not giving you a reply. That's his business not mine. All I'm saying is that the other guy got banned for whats to be a good reason and just because cub porn is banned everything else wont go with it. He (dragoneer) says that the fanart ban is false as it stands now and will continue to be so until something else comes up.

I hope that by no means I have been disrespectful to you but it just didnt seem accurate to downplay the admins so much :l

You've been respectful enough, in my opinion. And that isn't to say that Dragoneer hasn't done a LOT for this community; he has. And yes, it's his server and it's his liability.

But bloody hell, how can we trust him now?

Why not trust them? I mean, the admins along with Dragoneer have kept the site up for what? Five or six years? Why is it that you dont trust them to keep the site up and running as it has before? None of this would have occured if it wasnt for these financial issues with companies like alertpay and such. It is not Dragoneer's fault that he had to remove a portion of the art that was up on the site. And being that as it is, why is there a reason for you not to trust him?

To those of us not affected, there is now a fear, which some will not admit to, that maybe soon the kind of content they enjoy and/or create, will be next on the chopping block.


So essentially, you say this:

You are afraid that this is a slippery slope. That banning one thing automatically leads to banning others.

You are aware that as a general rule, slippery-slope theories are usually wrong, right?

I am aware of the slippery-slope fallacy, and what it's based on. It's based on one supposedly innocuous event leading to a chain of worse events. The probability of any one event leading to the next is reasonable, but the probability of the entire chain occuring is typically ludicrously small. Thus slippery-slope arguments are usually fallacies because they're highly speculative.

However, the progress of censorship isn't a chain of events, but the repetition of the same event. As long as you're willing to cut out a particular kind of content to appease someone who's offended by it and who has the power to threaten you over it, the probability over time of you cutting a given kind of content approaches one hundred percent, at differing rates based on how mainstream the content is. Therefore, the argument I pose is not a slippery-slope argument.

Dragoneer mentioned a few times that cub and cub alone was the reason they have been having issues with getting money. You animations thing is a completely different subject and more about wanting original art (not excluding fanart, by original, I mean art actually created by the artist) on the site than someone getting offended.

So the animation thing you're bitching about getting banned holds no water in this completely separate situation.

"If they ban X, they will eventually ban W, Y, Z, A, Q, and M" is a slippery slope argument. xD It is the repetition of the action of banning that makes your argument a slippery slope argument.

I did not say that if they ban A, then they'll ban B, thank you very much. What I have been saying is that for every person who is aware of a given kind of content on FA and with the power to threaten FA's wellbeing, there is a nonzero probability P that they'll be offended by that kind of content and manage to cow Dragoneer into censoring it. I'd like to say that P is zero, but the evidence at hand says otherwise. If N such people exist, the probability a given form of content getting censored is (1-(1-P)^N), which approaches 100% quickly as N gets bigger, even when P is very small. It's never a gauranteed thing, but an increasingly likely thing.

Which is just a mathematical expression of the idea that once they do it once, they do it again later on. And again. And again.

I'm sorry, it's still the slippery slope. xD; Whenever you have even the notion that "It could happen again" and a notion of "likelihood", you are talking about the slippery slope.

However, the progress of censorship isn't a chain of events, but the repetition of the same event. As long as you're willing to cut out a particular kind of content to appease someone who's offended by it and who has the power to threaten you over it, the probability over time of you cutting a given kind of content approaches one hundred percent, at differing rates based on how mainstream the content is. Therefore, the argument I pose is not a slippery-slope argument.


The slippery slope can be /either/ a chain of progressively worse events, or the repetition of the same event with increasing frequency.

As you yourself noted, and I quote, "As long as you're willing to cut out a particular kind of content to appease someone who's offended by it and who has the power to threaten you over it, the probability over time of you cutting a given kind of content approaches one hundred percent, at differing rates based on how mainstream the content is."

That's a classic slippery slope my friend, it's just been expressed in mathematic terms.

Holy crap, do you think everything involving probability is a slippery slope?? Okay, try this argument on for size:

Thanks to the events we're all painfully aware of, we now know that we're vulnerable to being censored by outside forces. Don't you think it...oh, I don't know...foolish to leave ourselves vulnerable to the same form of attack and just hope that it won't happen again? Isn't it wise for us to make ourselves less vulnerable so that we can do more than just hope?

Something like, say, establish a peer-to-peer network for sharing our art, based upon open-source software?

It is wise to be prepared for all circumstances.

However, the way you worded your arguement, it sounded like you said the following:

X has a probability. The probability of X occuring increases each time X occurs. Therefore, the more often X occurs, the higher the guarantee that X will occur again.

That's a slippery slope. XD;

If you didn't mean it like that, I apologize.

I didn't mean it like that, no. No harm done, apology accepted.

glad to hear it i do lots of fan art

Will fursuits be banned from FA?

Will artwork be banned from FA?

Is mayonnaise an instrument?

No. WE'RE instrument of the mayo D:

ROFL

No Patrick, Mayonnaise is not an instrument

Horseradish is not an instrument either

You are more patient and more gracious a person than I could ever hope to be. You have my sincerest admiration.

....that's probably more an indictment of my character than an exaltation of yours, but take the complement for what it's worth; you're a good admin. :P

MAN you're kinda late on this one... Unless you posted this late so you could sit back and watch what was going on =P

It is sad that people just assume things are gonna be instant without waiting for your journal/tweet to say so and/or not even check the AUP/ToS. I kept hearing over and over again that this or that was gonna be banned but saw no updates in the rules or with you, so, I was confused where the hell these people were getting their facts.



...christ it's as bad as folks getting their news from FOX and not BBC =/

I know that some years ago I had found out that is the case for VCL, but I never really assumed so here considering I had seen so many pictures of it.

No, I refuse to believe this! We all know what you're really up to 'neer! After killing the Jews and doing 9/11, banning everything on FA is your next goal!

THE SKY IS FALLING

no!

THE BEES!!!

better hurry up, i see comments below mine that you haven't replied to

look now. look at what you have done.

BAN SHADOWS OMG

BAN SHADOWS,NINJAS,AND HEDGEHOGS!

but..but rumors are fun why not?

CAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL IN AUSTRALIA

*ragequits* really sorry sarcasm isnt easy to see with text :P

pitchforks and torches are always 90% disccount here in FA.. so what did you expect.

A BULLET BILL

Someone sounds cross :P
*Offers cookies and Milk*

I'm not really sure of this after of see how was ban so easy others things


I dunno, maybe can pop up any pretext.....

I heard rumors shadows will be banned soon!

I HEARD RUMOUS THAT RUMOURS WERE GAY.

SHADOW WHERE!!!

LIGHT THERE!!!

I wasn't aware there were even rumors! CURSE THESE UPCOMING FINAL EXAMS AND THEIR MONOPOLIZING OF MY ATTENTION. D8

WHAT ARE YOU DOING READING THIS COMMENT, YOU SHOULD BE STUDING!

Proper studying technique includes taking short breaks to allow the mind to absorb new information and prevent it from becoming confused with other, similar information. Didn't they teach you that in Orientation? D:

Might it not be wise to advise other admins to remain silent on a given issue until a formal statement and stance can be put together? Food for thought.

Any truth to the rumors regarding femboys, or...?

what do femboys have to do with anything

I dunno; I've been hearing rumors that they're up on the chopping block.

Mostly because one aspect that's very commonly applied to femboys is youthful appearance. Sometimes it's pushed to childlike levels.

well you heard wrong