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why some critiques piss me off:
14 years ago
this is /only/ for fursuits, not art, clearly:
ok, so, I posted the 4 recent suits I finished to the fursuit LJ as I usualy do, now, ever since I had bad episodes of bullying in school, my self esteem has been extremely fragile, its been getting better in the last few years, but I still think extremely little of myself, and I strive to feel accepted.
thats all I want, which makes me come off as a real bitch when it comes to critiques, especialy certain people. so, how does this mean anything for fursuits? read on
now, I work harder than your average person, and I want to see someone try and prove me wrong on that, go ahead if you think you can. especialy compared to other 'suit makers.
in the 3 years or so I've been working for others, I've improved ALOT, however i still feel like an absolute nobody on the fursuit making scene, which is fine, however... I also feel very targeted by others because of my choiced regarding critiques. I would name the people I have... 'problems' with, however they'll remain anonymous for now, I don't like stirring un-nessicary drama.
by posting those 4 images on the fursuit LJ, and posting that I would like to discourage critiques [which is allowed by the community rules] everyone jumped on the post and told me I should ALWAYS be open to them, no exceptions. all I was looking for was some acceptance, that I'm going the right direction with my costumes, some praise for working my 16 hour long days non stop to the point of making myself ill just because I want to please others.
sorry, but you may operate this way, but I operate differently, and after explaining that, I was attacked once more and called 'notorious' and 'aggressive'.
here is the copy paste of the text I put after people ignored the part about not wanting crits, unless from the owner of the costume;
'sorry for the repost, I mention about not wanting people to talk about critiques, and as I am allowed to do so in this community, please respect my decision instead of posting snarky remarks, thankyou :)
I prefer for people who can actualy SEE and OWN my works to give crits, photos only show so much. crits from my partner and the owners of the costumes will and have been listened to. I'm actualy quite... surprized at the lack of respect given for my decision regarding crits. if you have a critique, /PM/ it to me, I do not claim to be a professional and my prices reflect that.'
if this is an unreasonable thing to say, please, let me know.
either way, more people posted about me being wrong. including one person who i could go on about for at least an hour about how much they need to rework their own work, and how much they copy big name makers.
I don't like accepting critiques because for the moment I need to keep my style and quality pretty consistant, improving is awesome, yes.... but for this year at least I want to keep things in commissioned projects pretty level, I can't afford a hue tax bill just yet from my work, I'm gathering up backup funds this year to buffer any fees. and charging the same for higher quality isn't worth my time.
suits will still be of good quality, of course. nothing will change that. i have some new things in the works I've been experimenting with that should have some awesome results, so expect a price and big quality rise next year :)
Tl;dr
I'm pissed off at the lack of respect that people have while looking at a subject in black and white without a grey area, there is ALWAYS an if or but in anything, don't overlook it.
ok, so, I posted the 4 recent suits I finished to the fursuit LJ as I usualy do, now, ever since I had bad episodes of bullying in school, my self esteem has been extremely fragile, its been getting better in the last few years, but I still think extremely little of myself, and I strive to feel accepted.
thats all I want, which makes me come off as a real bitch when it comes to critiques, especialy certain people. so, how does this mean anything for fursuits? read on
now, I work harder than your average person, and I want to see someone try and prove me wrong on that, go ahead if you think you can. especialy compared to other 'suit makers.
in the 3 years or so I've been working for others, I've improved ALOT, however i still feel like an absolute nobody on the fursuit making scene, which is fine, however... I also feel very targeted by others because of my choiced regarding critiques. I would name the people I have... 'problems' with, however they'll remain anonymous for now, I don't like stirring un-nessicary drama.
by posting those 4 images on the fursuit LJ, and posting that I would like to discourage critiques [which is allowed by the community rules] everyone jumped on the post and told me I should ALWAYS be open to them, no exceptions. all I was looking for was some acceptance, that I'm going the right direction with my costumes, some praise for working my 16 hour long days non stop to the point of making myself ill just because I want to please others.
sorry, but you may operate this way, but I operate differently, and after explaining that, I was attacked once more and called 'notorious' and 'aggressive'.
here is the copy paste of the text I put after people ignored the part about not wanting crits, unless from the owner of the costume;
'sorry for the repost, I mention about not wanting people to talk about critiques, and as I am allowed to do so in this community, please respect my decision instead of posting snarky remarks, thankyou :)
I prefer for people who can actualy SEE and OWN my works to give crits, photos only show so much. crits from my partner and the owners of the costumes will and have been listened to. I'm actualy quite... surprized at the lack of respect given for my decision regarding crits. if you have a critique, /PM/ it to me, I do not claim to be a professional and my prices reflect that.'
if this is an unreasonable thing to say, please, let me know.
either way, more people posted about me being wrong. including one person who i could go on about for at least an hour about how much they need to rework their own work, and how much they copy big name makers.
I don't like accepting critiques because for the moment I need to keep my style and quality pretty consistant, improving is awesome, yes.... but for this year at least I want to keep things in commissioned projects pretty level, I can't afford a hue tax bill just yet from my work, I'm gathering up backup funds this year to buffer any fees. and charging the same for higher quality isn't worth my time.
suits will still be of good quality, of course. nothing will change that. i have some new things in the works I've been experimenting with that should have some awesome results, so expect a price and big quality rise next year :)
Tl;dr
I'm pissed off at the lack of respect that people have while looking at a subject in black and white without a grey area, there is ALWAYS an if or but in anything, don't overlook it.
"I''m happy with the way it looks"
if you wanted crits or pointers in improvement, you'd have asked for it - that's what I believe.
I'm right there with ya
yeh I thought in the back of my head that if you wanted crits it would be in stages rather than finished product.
If people say it looks bad, maybe the should try making their own and comparing it to yours.
Some people feel the need to knock out competition. That be all it is. Don't let it get you down - your work is AWESOME.
Also, it seems the better the artist is, the more likely they are to be "critiqued" when they haven't asked for any critique to begin with. Your work is great, and it certainly stands out on its own, so in a sad way it's not surprising that some people are going to try and bully you or ruin your day.
which, usualy, involves the redlines making them look like MC/DHC/FH rippoffs. scroll down and read ari's comment, its EXACTLY how I feel about some of the critiques I have been given, and why I post to the fursuit LJ, which unfortunately I doubt I'll be doing again anytime soon.
anyone who knows me in person will happily dispute the 'slow progress' comment, and say I've come along in leaps and bounds. however most of those changes are 'under the hood' or slight but worth doing. which is why I don't like getting critiques unless people can see, touch and wear that particular head in person.
heres some examples:
the white fox I posted: my partner is my best critique, because like myself, he is very hard on himself, and reflects that onto how he looks at my work as well; that head was the most comfortable head he's ever worn [he's worn a fair few 'suit heads by different makers] the shaving job is perfect, the eyes are well set, the only fault lies in the neck pattern, which is visable in the photos. its bunched at the cheek slightly.
the black and brown wolf: also seen by my partner, some of the nicest and most acurate in size and shape wolf ears I've made, scaring needs some work and is alittle rough where it meets the eye area, but it is nothing that subtracts from the head itself. the tongue is slightly more forwards than I would have liked, but again, it doesn't effect anything majorrly, and unless the customer is unhappy with it, it will remain unchanged
the purple collie dog: first time doing floppy ears, heres the comment from the owner, as vai is yet to see it finished [although he immediately knew the spieces without knowing what it was just by the facial shape]
Haha, super long collie ears :P least she'll be easier to fit in a bag than dante! Lol
You shaped them so well though, from the side view they have that little dent in the middle like floppy ears should, very cute.
after an initial concern on the ear length, which is fine, in the photos they did come up looking alittle short. but in reality they are some of the longest dog ears I've made.
the lion: first feline since mid-ish last year, and even then that was a fantasy-esque feline, VERY proud of how he came out actualy looking like a lion unlike most of the lion suits I see, which look like cougars/cheetahs. due to the facial marking on him which is cougar-y, I had to be sure the face shape was very reconisable as a lion, especialy considering the extra mane was an after thought from the customer. lions have very long flat faces with wide snouts and otherwise thin faces poofed out by their mane. not short muzzles and big round cheeks like the majority make them. his mane was a first, and I love how it looks, as does his owner. there is a small fault with his eyes however, from every angle except looking up from his chin shows them perfectly, which is why I was unable to fix it, as I could not tell what was causing it. [likely the fur, as it wasn't a fault present in the foam work.] and the shaving is alittle choppy on the tan. the tan does NOT shave with any kind of trimmers, only scissors, it took 4 hours to trim down the tan areas as evenly as I did.
I KNOW my faults, I KNOW how to improve on most of them, errors are head specific, if I charged the prices of a professional, the costumes would be professional quality, for now I am happy supplying to those who don't have never ending pockets of cash and making them happy. [I have made costumes for people who own suits made by lacy, MC and various other makers, including professional mascot makers, the general response given is that they enjoy wearing my costumes more for the uniqueness and personality they have]
if you still feel that you 'need' to critique work, I am sorry, but I will have to decline, I don't trust random people online to critque and tear appart something I put my heart and soul into.
I've run into people who think people should not even post art, fursuits, sculptures, or anything unless they have a thick enough skin to accept critique. It sucks you can't just want to share something you're proud of without people wanting to make snarky remarks and tear down your stuff. Critique is awesome but sometimes people just don't want it and I think people should respect that. I'm sorry a bunch of people started being bitchy and pissy at you =/
I would think it would be better to just let people criticize things though, and if the criticism is inapplicable or bad, just ignore it. That way if a good criticism does come up, you won't miss out on it. Also, usually there is less drama and annoyances from people if the dumb crap gets ignored, instead of trying to enforce and reiterate requests like that. The only thing to really lose is the few seconds it takes to read a comment, since if it isn't applicable, it shouldn't be taken to heart. (And the disrespectful people will ignore the request in the first place anyway...).
And I don't think I agree with the "No criticism because it is too late to change" thing I've heard before. Reasonable people criticizing such works are not expecting you to take them apart and redo what came out less than perfect. Criticism on stuff that isn't a work in progress is meant to be suggestions to keep in mind the next time something similar comes up.
as said at the bottom also, theres the grey area with things, and I am very much in that area, i hate getting crits unless from the person its for, because while i like making people happy, if anyone else tries to correct it, i wont see the fault. myself with my style and the characters owner know better than a random stranger
As with any online forum, the tone and dynamics of every community is different. It doesn't necessarily always revolve around critiques, but that's often a focus since many members are posting up work and asking openly for help/crits so they can improve, so other posts are possible to fall into that just by default.
I only post my photos there to get alittle wider viewing, no one really visits my LJ, hopefuly things will pick up on here for fursuit related stuff soon though!
criting a suit compared to 2d art is an art in and of itself really i dont like criting nor do i feel comfortable criting a suit (and i went to art school crit was an everyday thing no matter how ya felt lol) for the simple reason that a camera simply by converting the 3d world to 2d cannot capture things and tends to do more harm than good by the ways lenses distort...
i'm also of the opinion that you dont need to be an artist to crit but if you are going to ya better do some research and learn proper terms and how to objectively crit not "oh i dont like it that head it too toony" thats not a crit
really crit should never be worded to be a put down and should only inspire or provide a second look at something but unfortunately that is scarce on here and LJ
i'm sorry people dont respect your view/wants or take the time to understand what they are saying its a real bummer when people say crap just to make you feel inadequate =/ personally been watching your stuff since before you started making suits you've taken great strides in suit making and i like them hell your first one was better than some makers who've been working for years keep up the good work shadow =3
Ugh I hate having to retype things... but my interent is being stupid on my desktop.
If you actually read her journal, she states that she posts to the Fursuit LJ to kind of bump herself out there, not really to fish for "GUYS WHAT I DO BETTER?!" answers.
A LOT of artists don't ask for critique because they don't want "omg u suck" comments, or the simple fact that maybe even casual comments will come off as sharp as knives (Some artists like Shads and myself as well, don't take 'general' critique well, and really only want to have comments from the people ordering the item, or limit it to people we know and trust for critique.)
Her suits (as well as her art) are far better in craft than some of the 'well known' suit makers in the US. And that's more in terms of "style" and "uniqueness" as well as how good it looks. Latin Vixen and Lacy's 2D eye style is something WIDELY used by suit makers, even yourself have copied its style; your suit eye: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4379127/ Lacy's eye: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4887590
Yes, she might 'benifit' from some pointers, but her having flarws in a style that's all of her own makes it HER style. Because of this, she's already been selected as the creator of my own personal fursuit, because I personally like how her heads look.
I hate being torn between two artiststhat I watch on here, I also hate having to 'contribute' to the drama. But knowing her attitude and how it's similar to my own with handling critique, I have to sidewith her. To her, the critique is like a slap to the face from someone outside of the circle of commissioner and close friends. A feeling that anyone would want to avoid (my semi-blank gallery can prove myself with that fact)
Anyway that's my two cents on the matter... Just because someone doesn't like critique, doesn't mean you have to attack them because of it. She's not being "holier than thou" when she doesn't want critique, she just wants to be seen, really.
Suit builders need to get their heads out of their asses and stop trying to make everyone so cookie-cutter. As I'd said: I LOVE the style you use on your heads. It makes me able to go "Oooh that's one of Shad's suits" and instantly recognize them, instead of confusing them with others (Lacy and Latin Vixen's heads, for example)
So fuck them and the critique they try to force onto you. Keep doing what you're doing, love! You've got so much support, your feet should never touch ground again ;P
If someones taking their own time out to give you a pace of valid critique, then theres no need to get upset. They care enough to actually want to help you.
that being said, I'm more than happy with how my suits look and how they have progressed anyway, as are my customers, I recieved a surprize tip from one of them just last week who thought I undercharged for their costume
And honestly Shadow, if the critique bothers you so much, just ignore it. It's better than kicking up shit about it, and yes, it may hurt ect ect, but honestly, if you really really hate it that much, ignore it! Dont even look at it. Dont worsen your rep with taking crit by posting all these journals ect ect. Just ignore it. You'll come off much better out of it.
If your and your customers are honestly, genuinly happy with your work, dont get in a tizz about it all.
again, I, and Vai are the only people I /trust/ to critique my work, I don't like random internet people, to quote my response to marmite;
'if you still feel that you 'need' to critique work, I am sorry, but I will have to decline, I don't trust random people online to critque and tear appart something I put my heart and soul into.'
As for these 'random people' critting you work, pick and choose. If it's some nubcake with no fursuit building expereince what so ever,, ignore. If it's someone who knows what they're talking about, at least have a small look into what they're talking about. I mean, my only 'crits' with you would be a few wonky things like eyebrows, small things that only take a few seconds to correct.
And just remember Shadow, when it comes to buisiness, your emotions come last. Dont le tthem get in your way, as hard as it sounds.
Hence why you definatly need to put you emotions last. If you let some pixels typed out on a keyboard bother you to the point of stopping work, you really need to learn to ignore, especially if you have people depending on you.
You just lost a customer.
I shall make sure to notify my friends that you're not worth their time either.
I think this is where the disconnect is. I've followed the community for a very long time, and people can certainly respect a request for no critique. That said, the group is geared towards learning, getting advice, and helping each other improve. If you are generally open and involved in these ways, your wishes will be respected for special cases. But if you are never open for critique and clearly state that you are not interested in changing your methods, or listening to advice about how to improve, people really wonder why you are posting to the group. It starts to feel like advertising.
The community is not simply there to dole out blind praise, and most people are not going to be interested in giving you a pat on the head because you made a thing when you are rather aggressive about ONLY wanting praise and NEVER wanting critique.
the community allows you to also show finished works, and its what I do on there [or more, did] to get more exposure as a suit maker, not EVERYONE likes crits from EVERYONE
fursuits, and art, are personal things, and sometimes 'fragile' things in that sense, and should be treated as such to the people, like myself, who DO accept crits, but on a case by case basis and not out in the open [I accept crits from my partner, because he's here to wear the costumes for photos, inspect them before they get sent out, ect [no, he isn't bias, he's actualy a very hard critique]
basicly, i DON'T want random people i don't know critiquing stuff, who don't know my methods and style up close and personal, my crits if i get them are from people who own my suits, my partner, myself, and my friends. and I would like to keep it that way
Understood and agreed, not everyone should be giving crits that don't understand the process of construction, especially if their own work needs alot of improvement it can seem a bit unnecessary. But when it's coming from more experienced makers, then it's really not falling in the realm of "random people," and is really a large part of what that community exists for.
what I ment was, people who can't see, feel and wear the costumes in person
Thats unfair and I am sure they can do the same to you. D: >
The truth is, I dont want crit on my work but I still allow it because its how you want to get better. You may not WANT to get better, but its always a good thing. You have a style that most people can spot from afar. Crit is only there to make your style more solid.
'the lions face shape is perfect, trust me :P perfect as I would style a lion, and perfect to the reference art I was given, it was the head I am currently most proud of. read the above comments to get a feel for things, mainly how I have a style, and I don't want to end up like everyone else copying each other, thats why my shaping is different, and thats why people commission me'
Everyone can understand what you are saying here, and its a fair point. But the truth is people will ALWAYS compare you to popular artists (DHC, Lacey, ect) and say you are wrong because their face is like that until you can show consistency. At the end of the day, its not what you find perfect' its what the customer finds perfect (and to be honest, if I paid so much for something, I would tell the person it was perfect just because). Face shape isn't what makes a suit a 'style'. Its the eyes and muzzles, mostly. So it would be good to copy the popular suit makers facial SHAPE, then put your style on it.
Its how everyone starts. Raging about it or back firing at people doesn't help any one.
if your familiar with saphire/mango island and java, they are probably the suit makers I look up to most, because they dare to be different :D
I can understand the round bit; but they sell regardless of the price LOL. I guess people like round...? And its all about the people. =U vU=
As I said up there, I can get where you are coming from.. but an eye for an eye is not needed. We are all furries, we are all pretty much hated and fursuit makers are hated especially by the rest of the internet and quickly become a target for places like ED and such; letting it slide off your back and not slandering other fursuit makers would be the best thing to do.
If you dont want crit, ignore it, simple as. We dont need the very few english fursuit makers fighting each other.
a critique is saying something looks wrong that is wrong, not saying that you don't like a certain stylization :)
n.
1. A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.
2. A critical discussion of a specified topic.
3. The art of criticism.
tr.v. cri·tiqued, cri·tiqu·ing, cri·tiques Usage Problem
To review or discuss critically.
---
Is this not critical commentary or review?
"most popular suit heads are very.... round, I don't like round head shapes"
"I have made costumes for people who own suits made by lacy, MC and various other makers, including professional mascot makers, the general response given is that they enjoy wearing my costumes more for the uniqueness and personality they have"
If this post is a commentary about disliking critiques, maybe you should consider respecting others work enough not to use their work as an example to make a point either written or verbal.
It makes me really sad that you have no desire to improve. It's almost as if you don't want to apply yourself as much as you can. I do like your stuff, and I would love to see it get even better, but it appears that you don't. :C
As others have said, there is no such thing as bad critique. Anyone who critiques you is not trying to hurt you or insult you, they are trying to help you.
I recall you saying something along the lines of "it doesn't matter if the customer is happy". [Correct me if I'm wrong.] What about your next customer? What if they ask for something similar, but are not happy because of a mistake that could have be fixed with critique on a previous head? :/
unfortunately, i can't afford to improve/raise prices at the moment for commissions, due to taxing in the UK, its complicated, but trust me, I have things worked out
[that, and i use my own person suits to improve, so naturaly if that works they come out looking better] i'm sure you can agree that experimenting on something someone paid for is wrong, correct?
I always ask the customer first :)
Also, I wasn't even talking about experimenting/trying new techniques on a paid suit. It obvious that you've no desire to pay attention to actual issue, so I'm just going to drop it. :/
and location does, I don't want to hit the tax threshold here, otherwise with the amount i'd be charged i'd be out of a home, its rather complex
I was actually considering looking at you, shadow, to be a future person to commission, but after reading this and your open desire NOT to improve and NOT to put your very best into peoples commissions, work people are PAYING for, I can openly say I will def not be looking to you for commissions in the future.
or, really, it'd be *BROFIST*, because KK. |3
-Nick
www.Furusiting.com
I never said I don't want ANY crits at all, which is how alot of people took it, and I appologuise if thats how it came across
We all develop our own styles over time. It may take years for people to recognize you, but it happens. We all feed off each other, we all chat and we all end up in turn helping each other.
No one is perfect, no maker is. If you stop improving then you stop learning. Every head should be a step up from the other. No mater if you charged that person the same as the one previous. You are constantly changing, always send your best work out regardless of how much might of been charged. I don't send stuff that would make me cringe or make me "meh". I like being happy about my work as I see it being worn which is always a pleasure.
Just be careful with how you reply to crits being given. Specially here on FA, people can make it a nightmare to post.
and I'm definately looking into that camera you mentioned as well, a DSLR, right? what model number do you reccomend? :)
and if you mentioned about the backdrop sheets, I may have missed it :( I can't find them anywhere
As for the backdrop I found them on ebay. They come in a ton of colors and lengths. Just find the one that would fit in your room.
Not trying to argue with you.
I just wanted to add that often the person purchasing your work can't give the best crit because they do not work the medium themselves.
If it looks good to them then thats great. Normally a crit is for future reference. They're not saying you should tear a finished piece apart that the intended person as ok'd.
They might be able to say something looks a bit off, but not exactly tell you why.
Don't view a crit as a negative thing. It took me years to figure this out for myself, but this is the way I look at them.
Someone came across your work. They saw that it was good and you where good enough to actually be told what their view point on what could be grown upon. You where worth a stranger taking the time and risking a back lash because they thought you have great potential, already put out work that shows that you know what you're doing and can handle it.
Its not saying you're bad. Its saying that you are good and considered a fellow artist instead of a kid in your basement messing around with foam and glue. There isn't much of a point in criting someone who doesn't take this seriously, who won't put the hard work into it, and no one thinks they have a future with it.
Like I said, I'm not trying to argue with your decision to take in crits. You did say though that its a hit to your self esteem because you do put in a lot of work. It shows! People notice it. Its why they want to help you become even better than you already are!
After a while, you will learn the difference between the thinly veiled insults and the real deal. They're often really easy to tell. Heh, I could pull up an example off my own drawings. (and my work is not at par of yours at all either lol)