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Thoughts On Exposing Throat
14 years ago
General
I'd like to thank Istanbul for his article. Calling on older and wiser furries, (not always the same thing), to be examples of gentile behaviour to those less adept at these skills is an excellent idea. I have a few further thoughts on the matter and I'm going to express them here.
Drama is a problem in Furry. It makes the general atmosphere of the fandom less pleasant, more corrosive. I can see how drama could actually tear Furry apart over time. I believe it's more likely however that we will eventually find ways of dealing with drama by either controlling or compensating for it.
In fact, we have a scheme for controlling it which we already use, but it's neither wise nor safe. As a friend pointed out to me the other day, trolls attack the weakest furries most quickly because they're vulnerable and attract attention to themselves. Trolls then harass them until they cut themselves off, (from the fandom and from the Internet.) Thus they removing themselves from Furry and the rest of us don't have to get our hands dirty. Yes, it's a practical solution, but it's a bad one.
- Trolls don't attack furries because they hate us, they just enjoy being cruel. They probably don't realize it, but they're shaping Netiquet... and to an extent the world in general. They're making it mandatory to be callous, judgmental and self-centered. Is that how we want Furry to be?
- For instance, not all behaviour is inappropriate in all situations. Arguing over the picayune details of some thing or incident of interest to nobody but us is annoying in somebody else's journal, but might be the whole point of a panel at a convention. Trolls tend to think in black-and-white; if it annoys them, then it's "faggotry" and deserves their wrath. Hugging and scritching a fellow fur is not okay at a business meeting, but desirable at a furmeet. Trolls are solitary and aggressive by nature; to them, acts of affection would be appropriate, oh, like... NEVER, YOU FUCKIN' FURFAG!!! We don't want to be like them.
- Trolls are enemies of Furry because they're everybody's enemy; they don't just pick on us. Nevertheless, Furry is one of their targets and they are our enemy. How can it be wise to let our enemy decide who's allowed to be one of us, to censor what we say and do, by attacking those of us of whom they do not approve? (or in any other way for that matter)
- Trolls start with the weak because they're easy. But they do go on to harder targets when the "low hanging fruits" are stomped. Make no mistake, they have skills and resources of all kinds that can bring down much harder targets than we can make ourselves. The "good furries," the ones we "want to keep," are not immune to trolling, they're just being saved for later.
- Besides, not all of our "more troublesome members" are hopeless. Most just need a nudge in the right direction, (or in a few more stubborn cases, a kick in the pants.) With a little education and mentoring, most will start behaving appropriately. Trolls have no interest in improving anybody's behaviour; quite the opposite, in fact. Trolls choose victims who behave like victims, then provoke them into acting that way as much as possible so that they can laugh at it. In this way they actually encourage our "more troublesome members" to behave even worse, (that is, until they finally run bawing and boo-hooing into the night, hopefully never to be seen again... because by that point they really are hopeless.)
So letting trolls deal with our "more troublesome members" is a very bad idea. Instead, we must do the job ourselves. How can we do this? Here's what I think.
- We need to start by deciding together what is and is not appropriate for Furry society. We can hardly model good behaviour if we each have a different idea of what that is. (Our "more troublesome members" could then argue that their standards are as appropriate for them as ours are for us. Furry needs a single standard to point to.) I recommend that we start by discussing this together and I recommend that we start the discussion with the behaviours we don't want, (and what we do want instead.) Perhaps we could call whatever results from our discussion "The Istanbul Accord" after the Furry who inspired it.
- Then we need to turn to ourselves. If we are to set a good example, we need to know what we're doing and why, (as will be spelled-out in The Accord): firstly so that we really are being examples of good behaviour; and secondly so that we can explain it to those of us who don't understand.
- Once we all know what good behaviour is and why, we need to make a habit of behaving that way around each other. Even a complete tool doesn't deserve to be lectured to by a hypocrite!
- Then we can start expecting others to behave that way, too. Remember, humans are social animals, wired to clue-in to behaviours. Just expecting good manners of somebody can often nudge them into it.
- If somebody proves to be clue-resistant, the right way to correct them is privately. Being corrected is embarrassing, (albeit sometimes necessary.) That's why public chastisement is more likely to get people's backs up than to get their cooperation. Take the offender aside before you try -- gently -- to describe what they were doing wrong and what would have been appropriate. When you talk to them, neither assume that they were being deliberately offensive, (until they reveal that they were), nor allow yourself to be angry, (just concerned); talk neither down nor up to them, but treat them as equals. Expect them to want to be better and they probably will.
I'm not going to claim to conclude my post because this is really only the beginning. Instead I'm going to stop here and invite further discussion.
-- D'Otter
...one last thing; I originally wrote this back in March. I've been meaning to post it ever since, but felt shy about sticking my neck out like this. One thing or another seemed to need to be journaled-about first, often some worthy charity... but I have finally posted it.
And here again is
istanbul's original article. http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2143884/
Drama is a problem in Furry. It makes the general atmosphere of the fandom less pleasant, more corrosive. I can see how drama could actually tear Furry apart over time. I believe it's more likely however that we will eventually find ways of dealing with drama by either controlling or compensating for it.
In fact, we have a scheme for controlling it which we already use, but it's neither wise nor safe. As a friend pointed out to me the other day, trolls attack the weakest furries most quickly because they're vulnerable and attract attention to themselves. Trolls then harass them until they cut themselves off, (from the fandom and from the Internet.) Thus they removing themselves from Furry and the rest of us don't have to get our hands dirty. Yes, it's a practical solution, but it's a bad one.
- Trolls don't attack furries because they hate us, they just enjoy being cruel. They probably don't realize it, but they're shaping Netiquet... and to an extent the world in general. They're making it mandatory to be callous, judgmental and self-centered. Is that how we want Furry to be?
- For instance, not all behaviour is inappropriate in all situations. Arguing over the picayune details of some thing or incident of interest to nobody but us is annoying in somebody else's journal, but might be the whole point of a panel at a convention. Trolls tend to think in black-and-white; if it annoys them, then it's "faggotry" and deserves their wrath. Hugging and scritching a fellow fur is not okay at a business meeting, but desirable at a furmeet. Trolls are solitary and aggressive by nature; to them, acts of affection would be appropriate, oh, like... NEVER, YOU FUCKIN' FURFAG!!! We don't want to be like them.
- Trolls are enemies of Furry because they're everybody's enemy; they don't just pick on us. Nevertheless, Furry is one of their targets and they are our enemy. How can it be wise to let our enemy decide who's allowed to be one of us, to censor what we say and do, by attacking those of us of whom they do not approve? (or in any other way for that matter)
- Trolls start with the weak because they're easy. But they do go on to harder targets when the "low hanging fruits" are stomped. Make no mistake, they have skills and resources of all kinds that can bring down much harder targets than we can make ourselves. The "good furries," the ones we "want to keep," are not immune to trolling, they're just being saved for later.
- Besides, not all of our "more troublesome members" are hopeless. Most just need a nudge in the right direction, (or in a few more stubborn cases, a kick in the pants.) With a little education and mentoring, most will start behaving appropriately. Trolls have no interest in improving anybody's behaviour; quite the opposite, in fact. Trolls choose victims who behave like victims, then provoke them into acting that way as much as possible so that they can laugh at it. In this way they actually encourage our "more troublesome members" to behave even worse, (that is, until they finally run bawing and boo-hooing into the night, hopefully never to be seen again... because by that point they really are hopeless.)
So letting trolls deal with our "more troublesome members" is a very bad idea. Instead, we must do the job ourselves. How can we do this? Here's what I think.
- We need to start by deciding together what is and is not appropriate for Furry society. We can hardly model good behaviour if we each have a different idea of what that is. (Our "more troublesome members" could then argue that their standards are as appropriate for them as ours are for us. Furry needs a single standard to point to.) I recommend that we start by discussing this together and I recommend that we start the discussion with the behaviours we don't want, (and what we do want instead.) Perhaps we could call whatever results from our discussion "The Istanbul Accord" after the Furry who inspired it.
- Then we need to turn to ourselves. If we are to set a good example, we need to know what we're doing and why, (as will be spelled-out in The Accord): firstly so that we really are being examples of good behaviour; and secondly so that we can explain it to those of us who don't understand.
- Once we all know what good behaviour is and why, we need to make a habit of behaving that way around each other. Even a complete tool doesn't deserve to be lectured to by a hypocrite!
- Then we can start expecting others to behave that way, too. Remember, humans are social animals, wired to clue-in to behaviours. Just expecting good manners of somebody can often nudge them into it.
- If somebody proves to be clue-resistant, the right way to correct them is privately. Being corrected is embarrassing, (albeit sometimes necessary.) That's why public chastisement is more likely to get people's backs up than to get their cooperation. Take the offender aside before you try -- gently -- to describe what they were doing wrong and what would have been appropriate. When you talk to them, neither assume that they were being deliberately offensive, (until they reveal that they were), nor allow yourself to be angry, (just concerned); talk neither down nor up to them, but treat them as equals. Expect them to want to be better and they probably will.
I'm not going to claim to conclude my post because this is really only the beginning. Instead I'm going to stop here and invite further discussion.
-- D'Otter
...one last thing; I originally wrote this back in March. I've been meaning to post it ever since, but felt shy about sticking my neck out like this. One thing or another seemed to need to be journaled-about first, often some worthy charity... but I have finally posted it.
And here again is
istanbul's original article. http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/2143884/
I generally hold to the 'golden rule' that most of us had drummed into our heads early, all of us have heard in one way or another, and most of us subsequently decided was impossible to adhere to and gave up trying. I don't do anything to anyone that would cause me grief if it were done to me, or conversely, I do to others as I would be done by. I'm not always successful, but no one is.
You're autistic? (I'm not, but so many furries seem to be.)
The reason you see so many more people like me in furry is because furry is very internet centered. Social situations in real life can be extremely difficult for ASD people, but an internet social life has none of the usual difficulties. And 'Do Unto others etc' is a good place to start. It's where you go from there that's important.
I wish everyone loved one another in this fandom, there's alot of bitterness. I used to have an account on a michael jackson fan forum before the site died, and it was the sweetest bunch of people. I never came across any unpleasant person, and everyone addressed one another as "hun" or "dear" I really loved being there, I referred to them affectionately as my MJ "family"
I hope we can one day be like that too ^^ a big supportive family ^^
Now, Im speaking from a troll point of view. You are right about the picking of weaker furs. As a Troll, you are an attacker, and of course, the weaker of the bunch is the easiest target. Its easier to troll when you are in groups.
From a victim point of view, I have had my share of trolling. One person back in 2006, had created a jd-w sucks dog cocks account. That hurt me hard, but i didnt act on it, cause i somewhat knew that that's what they wanted. they want to get a laugh out of you spazzing out over something. What i did was contact the admin, and request some action to be taken place. Kids, if you are being bullied or trolled, it is best not to fight. Standing down, and taking the piss is sometimes the way that they'll leave you alone...Then you can report it, and have actions taken.
but always, Difference will always create Dispute.. Either it be about art, Sports Team, or even music. Im bad when it comes to music, i say. I wont say when this happened, but yeah...It didnt show what the better part of me. Really, i should of just kept a clear head, and just let it pass. It ended up just being trolling anyway.
This kind of topic will be open for quite a while, and i dont think we even hit the tip of this iceburg. More later after the weather! *woosh!*
BTW, you handled those trolls exactly the right way.
That said, sometimes we need to punch the troll in the mouth, just so they go off and pick on someone else. Dunno what to do there though.
I've been putting up with people who behave in exactly the way that the people who are called trolls do on the internet my entire life.
MY ENTIRE LIFE. I'm no happier about having them here on the internet than I am about having them out in the real world, but there are always going to be people who need to undermine others in order to validate themselves. I used to hurt those people quite badly as a kid in school, but since I can't choke slam someone over the internet, I think what I eventually learned to do instead in reality might work better.
Don't feed them. Refuse to give them what they need and eventually they will grow bored and leave you alone. Counterattack only validates them. Rationalizing with them is impossible. Diplomacy inevitably fails because the only kind of diplomacy they understand is who's got the bigger beat stick.
If everyone just stopped reacting to comments they found were inappropriate rather than expressing their distaste or getting riled up, I think the problem would be much less significant. But they're really good at getting a rise out of you, aren't they?
You can't treat the symptoms of a problem and not the cause; if you do that, the cause itself only festers and grows worse while the symptoms are being masked. You've gotta get at the root of a problem if you ever expect to solve it.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1408177/ -- more on handling trolls
y'know, i stand up for people. if someone is haveing trouble with a troll, i try to shift them out and deal with the troll myself. i know how to deal with trolls, so i let them [ineffectively] focus on me. that way, the intended victim gets out unharmed, and the troll loses its target. however, since trolls are too vain to admit defeat, they continue to try attacking me until they give up.
in real life, i have always been a target. i don't know why, but people just see me as weak. this is part of why i know how to deal with trolls. with trolls, you can wait a while and think about a response, but i've had to deal with altercations in real time.
while ignoring them does make them go away eventually, i prefer to counterdefend: instead of coming back at them with an attack, i just negate the attack made on me. trolls don't like this, so they're forced to switch topic until they're out of material. this approach works because the troll is forced to try to make a reasonable statement, which they're incapable of doing.
it may be a somewhat crude method, but i like it because it defends more than just myself.