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What the f*** does it take?!
17 years ago
As some people may know, I'm the lead admin of http://www.furbuy.com - one of the oldest all-furry auction websites on the internet. I inherited the site from Jurann, who used to run the site all by himself, and has stayed on as the lead coder.
I can't get people to use the site. A few people here, a few people there. We have some good days, some bad. We get up to almost 100 auctions, and then they all end the same day and it goes to 20.
I put out flyers at furry conventions, make journal posts, host auctions, actively try to advertise, NOTHING. We've tried to integrate with sites, and the only sites that are even remotely interested aren't enough to give FurBuy the boost it needs to break out and become a leading auction site. The sites that WOULD have allowed us the visibility we need, have so far backed out on us, even after we've done everything in our power to work with them.
Most of the time I try to get people to use the site, they say they don't want to because there's no traffic. Traffic takes people. People willing to go and try it out without being led by the rest of the herd. We can't get traffic if everyone refuses to go until everyone goes! Why don't people understand this?? We get auctions that get loads of bidding and competition and views, we've proven that you CAN get good results on a lower traffic system, and even created a page with hints on HOW to do it! But people won't try it.
Every time I turn around, I hear about someone who has been screwed over, burned, or had a bad experience with Furbid and/or it's admin. I personally refuse to use the site because of my own personal selling experiences with the site. I won't use it, period, not even if FurBuy and every other auction site on the internet site fails. Why, if people have so many issues with the site, do they stay? All it takes is a collective decision to use a different site.
FurBuy is easy to use, carefully maintained, coded from scratch so the admins know all the ins and outs and can make improvements on anything... We take suggestions, we have a detailed ToS, we have FAQs and context help, individual user pages... And everything is FREE! We don't charge for anything, not even front page thumbnail listings! Why do people consistently go to a site that charges for any attention grabbing features, when they can have it all for free?
What am I missing??? What does it take for this site to succeed? I'm at my wits' end, but I can't give up, because we're NOT taking the site down, I will not stop using it, there IS traffic, maybe it's not tops, but I can't fathom what it WILL take to get it to the top. So far, everyone is dragging their feet and refusing to try it. I'm sick of it, I'm frustrated, and I don't know what to do to get people to actually give it a chance.
I can't get people to use the site. A few people here, a few people there. We have some good days, some bad. We get up to almost 100 auctions, and then they all end the same day and it goes to 20.
I put out flyers at furry conventions, make journal posts, host auctions, actively try to advertise, NOTHING. We've tried to integrate with sites, and the only sites that are even remotely interested aren't enough to give FurBuy the boost it needs to break out and become a leading auction site. The sites that WOULD have allowed us the visibility we need, have so far backed out on us, even after we've done everything in our power to work with them.
Most of the time I try to get people to use the site, they say they don't want to because there's no traffic. Traffic takes people. People willing to go and try it out without being led by the rest of the herd. We can't get traffic if everyone refuses to go until everyone goes! Why don't people understand this?? We get auctions that get loads of bidding and competition and views, we've proven that you CAN get good results on a lower traffic system, and even created a page with hints on HOW to do it! But people won't try it.
Every time I turn around, I hear about someone who has been screwed over, burned, or had a bad experience with Furbid and/or it's admin. I personally refuse to use the site because of my own personal selling experiences with the site. I won't use it, period, not even if FurBuy and every other auction site on the internet site fails. Why, if people have so many issues with the site, do they stay? All it takes is a collective decision to use a different site.
FurBuy is easy to use, carefully maintained, coded from scratch so the admins know all the ins and outs and can make improvements on anything... We take suggestions, we have a detailed ToS, we have FAQs and context help, individual user pages... And everything is FREE! We don't charge for anything, not even front page thumbnail listings! Why do people consistently go to a site that charges for any attention grabbing features, when they can have it all for free?
What am I missing??? What does it take for this site to succeed? I'm at my wits' end, but I can't give up, because we're NOT taking the site down, I will not stop using it, there IS traffic, maybe it's not tops, but I can't fathom what it WILL take to get it to the top. So far, everyone is dragging their feet and refusing to try it. I'm sick of it, I'm frustrated, and I don't know what to do to get people to actually give it a chance.
Honestly, I only use Furbuy. Furbid has weird fees, and I've had a few troubles with the system. I hope that helps. The only thing I can think of is that some people may get impatient with the longish form system, and may crave a shorter, more succinct method of speed posting? Otherwise, the only other issue is traffic... which you need, as you said, to create the buzz to get more traffic!
and even after the constant bad experience with furbuy, people keep going there , its a auto feedback problem that keeps forcing people there.. :|
I disliked furbuy and fureauction cause, even with the great service and control, people just simple dont look there x_x
The only reason i don't use Furbuy is cause 1) i have nothing to auction off and 2) i have no money to buy anything. *shrugs* otherwise you're damn right I'd use it. It's more user friendly compared to Furbid. atleast from what I've seen when i've browsed it.
You've built it, the smart ones will come.
if your site is truely better then eventually it'll catch on, if ya can persuade a top tier artist or 3 to only use your site, because it is the best site, that would of course help.....i say this not knowing if u already have this going on .
you are right though can't get more traffic if people wont use it cuz there's no traffic. i can see why your pulling your hair out.
Good luck though =3
Thanks, btw :) We could use all the luck we can get.
I went to the site... furbuy.com, right?
The first thing I noticed: It's blue. It has a lot of words.
Sadly, it took a good 30 seconds for me to figure out that I was actually looking at the proper site and that it was indeed a furry auction site. :(
That may be something to address.
Bug me sometime for a banner on Playmouse (Since you haven't done so in the past). We'll have to negotiate the price, but it will cost at minimum a "thank you".
As far as the first impression, I don't get it. It's very much an auction site. There are listings on the left and right, pictures of auctions in the middle, and words at the bottom telling you about the last updates. It may not be as bare bones as Furbid, but it's plainly an auction site! Furbid doesn't even use the words "furry" or "auction" on their site, except the word "auction" once in the banner!
its good to see it coming back
as to furbuy i refer people there all the time dont know how many use it though
Trust me, I know you were a contributing member. :P *Lick* You didn't stay in touch as much when we had troubles, but I forgive you. ;)
Anyway, yes it's an auction site. You find that out after some work, or if you know it. When first presented with the page, it doesn't scream "I'M AN AUCTION SITE! BUY STUFF AT ME! SELL STUFF ON ME!" like other successful non-niche auction sites do. It's got a better page rank than Furbid for many search terms as well.
I can only give my impression on things. I can offer help in various ways, but i can't force it to be taken. My impressions may or may not be shared by others, but my impressions are from a semi-trained and even technically somewhat professional point of view, given my job history. You asked a question, so i answered. No worries. I'll butt out.
I guess I'll have to look at Playmouse and see what's left. I was only ever there for the artwork side of it, so yeah, I kinda left when all the galleries were taken down. :\ Sorry about that. And yes, we'd be happy to do up a banner! Lemme know what it takes to get space!
If you look at Furbid, it's very clean, organized very well, and easy to navigate. It's a lot like eBay (though less wordy and less obnoxious).
Furbuy is like looking at one huge block of text on a field of blue.
Also, there are too many features, really, that just clutter the site and make it more confusing.
-- "Art Show"? What's the purpose?
-- Popular Auctions"? What determines their popularity? Often, they have no pictures and no bids.
-- "Hot Items"? I'm assuming this is like Furbid's "Featured Items", but the wording sounds as if the site is basing the assumption on how many bids the piece has gotten or how many views it has gotten, and judging by some of the art there, it appears to be neither, and rather, a feature that the seller paid for. The category name is misleading, in other words.
I guess that's my two cents. I still need to run two similiar items concurrently through both auction sites, and see what comes of it.
Agreed on the Art Show. That was Jurann's doing, and I've never understood it.
The Popular Auctions are the auctions that have received the most number of views within the past 36 hours. And unlike Furbid, we actually only count UNIQUE views, so it's more accurate.
Hot Items are auctions that have opted to submit a thumbnail to be featured on the front page. Also, agreed on the name. I'm wondering what it could be called then, since we don't want to copy "Featured Items".
please, do not act as if you understand how our code works. neither you nor timothy have actually seen it. people out there know that and see when you make comparisons, which rely on your supposed knowledge of something you actually have no knowledge of, you look bad. that will turn a large percentage of people off.
(we actually count both unique and non-unique, depending on what function depends on which is used)
as i explained to you at anthrocon - as long as you compare your system to mine, people will always assume your system is inferior. Instead of focusing on how your system may be better, or mine may be worse (which in reality neither is true), you should focus on the strengths of your system alone, without bringing furbid-sf into the discussion. that way, you never plant the seed of the other system into their minds.
the reason is, the moment anyone thinks of both systems at the same time, they will check both. they will see the actual numbers. as you stated, furbuy has at most 100 auctions, usually around 25 or so. i do not regularly follow it but i have noticed those numbers as well. then, they look at furbid-sf and see we have over 1000 on the average. when they must gamble, they go with the better odds.
i guess, what i am trying to advise you is the same advice i gave you at ac. focus on the strengths of your system without attacking mine. and, please, keep timothy out of the public eyes. he means well, but he has a habit of attacking others and that tends to turn people off.
an example:
the history of how furbid was created is quite different as it was handed down to me. and in all reality, it has no bearing on how the system works now. remember, shortly after the system was handed over to me, it was completely recoded. i mean completely. it was in no way based on the system that jeff had originally built. and, when timothy forgets that minor issue, it again does make people question him.
if you wish, i am willing to help you with other ideas, and such. i have always been open with you and willing to help your system grow. i still am. so please, do not hesitate to ask.
I know for me, personally, when I see Ayukawataur respond in a polite manner, and then see you say "STFU" and "Fuck off" to them, it makes me (and perhaps others) NOT want to use FurBuy. :(
It's in Furbuy's interest to be professional when you're in the public eye. It'll help your site a lot better if you're always polite to folks rather than flying off the handle and swearing someone out in public.
However, if you want FurBuy to do better, it's in your own best interest as to *how* to share them!
I wouldn't have said anything to you, except that this entire thread is devoted to "Why isn't FurBuy doing better" and I'm merely pointing out one of the possible reasons.
As to your accusations about Ayuka, I've heard a lot of rumors, but I've never really seen any tangible proof. I just know what I've seen with my own two eyes, and I've never seen Ayuka act in any manner other than a hyper-professional one, to the point of following the rules to the point of almost inflexibility. I've done a lot of business on Furbid, and I've always been treated very professionally.
I am not speaking as a friend of Ayuka....I'm not. I do not even know them. I know Kacey, but only on an artist-peer level, and a very superficial one at that, so please do not think I'm defending either of them as my buddies..I'm not.
I'm merely saying that I've never seen any hanky-panky going on with Furbid, and all I've heard have been unsubstantiated rumors, so I'm keeping an open mind.
In the meantime, here on this thread, I've merely tried to offer my suggestions as to how to make FurBuy a better/more popular place.
The sentence "However, if you want FurBuy to do better, it's in your own best interest as to *how* to share them!"
should have read:
"However, if you want FurBuy to do better, it's in your own best interest to rethink the best way as to *how* to share them!"
Be innovative and try to work on offering something new. One very good example is the system you created where people can use some code to insert their current auctions onto a page on a website. That feature is awesome. Come up with more stuff like that, and you'll produce something that people will like so much, they'll demand it. It has to be something so innovative that it ends up altering what people expect from auction services. The furry auctioning system "industry" (or whatever you want to call it) has reached the point where innovation is the thing that is required for success.
I hope that at least K'Sharra hears me this time around.
What *is* Furbuy's strengths? That's where you'll find your breakthroughs. Here's an example -- FedEx asked this question of themselves many years ago and they discovered that their strength is not delivering packages (that's what they do). They discovered that they are very strong in the area of logistics. Now they offer award-winning logistics solutions services to businesses. Maybe Furbuy needs to find out what it's good at and possibly create a feature that takes advantage of it, whatever it is.
The main reason I clarify the difference when mentioning counter views is because that is one of the main things people bring up to me whenever comparing the sites: "My auction has more views than on your site!" I got a bit tired of repeating the explanation over and over again, so I've gotten into the bad habit of wording it the way I did above. I suppose I'll have to work on that.
I fail to see how anyone could consider my statement an attack in any way. It is an observable fact. Maybe I shouldn't have brought up your site's name, but it's a very far stretch of the imagination to consider what I said even remotely offensive to anyone.
And as far as putting a muzzle on Jurann (who dislikes being called by his real name and prefers to keep it separate from his fan name, I will remind you since you continue to disregard his preference in that), obviously, I can't. I don't have a throttle on his internet to keep him from posting, I don't have a leash to keep him from doing his own thing, and I can't fire him. He's just something you either get rankled at, or learn to ignore and/or deal with. If there was some way I could shut him up, or control what he says, I would, but I've tried everything in the book, and you can see by his comments on this journal exactly how much affect that has had.
since that has nothing to do with what gets marked as 'hot'. your system uses number of views in the last 36 hours? that is if memory serves. furbid-sf uses a hard line of ten bids placed. we do not count page views as something that makes an item hot.
the unique page views are not displayed, mostly because i have been to lazy to code that part. it is more for my own records.
the main reason that was done was because something was brought to my attention. if you are waiting for an auction to close, and the system only counts unique page-views, for the counter at least, then there is no way to tell if another is camping the auction in hopes of catching you off guard. when someone is camping, and they are observant enough, they can tell by watching the counter. if it rises quickly, others are either checking the auction out, or they are consistently reloading, hoping to catch if anyone else has bid.
just one of those features we added to help with the nuances of the market. and, since no one has asked for unique pageviews to be the only displayed number, i have no need to be un-lazy and change it over.
perhaps, attack was not the best word. i do not know a better word. however, it is quite easy to see how your comparison does attempt to claim that our system is an inferior to your system. as i have stated in the past, neither is superior, or inferior. they are both unique and serve to give the public a choice.
again, i must apologize to jurann. i think in terms of names as they are attached to my records. he has made multiple accounts, but his name has never changed. it is a flaw in my method i would assume. where i am from, we use a persons name, proper. nicknames are only used when one is familiar with the person in a friendly manner. just as many people call me noriko, which may be my given name, it is not the name i am comfortable with. though, i may point out that i understand because most people i meet can not easily pronounce miyagami. that is the name. same holds true with the name ayukawataur, it is the proper name, yet most people in the fandom shorten it to ayu, which is a fish, or ayuka, which is nothing. ayukawa is okay, but... i think i am babbling again. you know i do that when i am trying to explain things to people.
(i would also point out, the link below that dan gives. that is not my name. it is a nice try, but it is still wrong.)
i do not really read his journal. i might have a look there soon though, just to see. i might learn something from him. you never know. i do so like to learn things.
I can tell by your post, too, that you have our "Popular Auctions" confused with the "Hot Items". "Hot Items" (as some people already pointed out) was a confusing name and has been changed, on the front page at least. Jurann has quite a bit of behind-the-scenes work to change everything over completely.
only number of bids, or a person paying to have an auction to have a better visibility can affect standings.
i was always of the opinion that excellent advertising, or something like the lj: furbid_horrors directing others to the site and on to the page can artificially skew the figures and make them not as accurate. it was something i noticed before i re-coded the system a few years ago.
i am not certain how to say it without it sounding condescending, and i do not mean it to. but, it is something that comes from traffic. you get some interesting results when you have as much as we do. so, we have had to evolve in directions that prevent certain abuse methods that i have witnessed over the years.
oh, i do not think i have the terms confused. i am using the terms i am accustomed to. since i do not know how your system works, on the base code level, it makes sense for me to relate it to mine.
simple, ne?
http://www.furbid.ws/cgi-bin/auctio.....action=popular
It says it right at the top of the page. Auctions with more than 50 visitors get special ranking by being listed under that page. Perhaps you need to review your site again and familiarize yourself with its workings and pages? Or perhaps the statement at the top of the page is incorrect and needs reworking?
I always make sure to do my research and use the proper names as used on the site when talking about another person's website. It makes it easier to understand things when talking about features and pages, and it's a form of politeness to do the research yourself instead of making the other party have to work to figure out what you are talking about. Please, if you are planning to talk about certain pages and features on FurBuy, at least visit the site to make sure you are using the proper names for things when you are discussing it. It makes the discussion less confusing, and only takes a few minutes on your part.
i am talking about what marks an auction as hot. as i have stated before.
they are two separate methods of accounting in that regard.
as i said, different terminology. but, yes, we do use multiple methods of marking.
please, do not try to insult me again. i can only communicate ideas so efficiently in a textual format.
i know my code. the problem is you and i are speaking different languages where it comes to terminology.
You speak as if we're children who cannot understand the complexity of the nature of your system, as if it's data and processing are a completely foreign language. I'm afraid you're wrong, just plain wrong. We don't know what you've named your variables, and we don't know what libraries you've used to make your code tick, but at it's heart it is simply a set amount of directives that process data - data we can see and understand - process which we can empirically observe and make note of. I built a system capable of far more than yours, I speak more than just it's language, but many others. I notice you like to speak as if only you can understand the rare complexity and nature of your code - and it leads me to wonder... If you need rare complexity and twisted nature to make your system work rather than pure, simple, forward logic - how could it be better for your users? Why do they require complexity and twisting of the simplest nature? What is your code doing that is deceptive and impure?
I leave people to ponder that.
you wish to speak about this? speak in person, face to face.
you do not know my system, i do not know yours. neither of us worked on coding the others. that is the plain, hard, facts. i will not insult you, or your system. i never have. i may express an opinion that you are not good for pr, but even k'sharra agrees with me on that. but, i have only ever complemented your system, and your code ability.
do me the same kindness, please. it is the only professional behavior that people in our positions are expected to illustrate.
Speaking face to face with you ever again is unfortunately not going to happen. I'll give you advanced notice now that I have nothing to say to you in-person because I have no business with liars and ingrates. If you attempt to, I will ask you to leave me be, if you pursue it further, I will issue a formal complaint of harassment. I do not have business with you; however your misconstrued and misunderstood ideas of philosophy and logic I will happily pick apart online at my whim in public view because I think people have a right to know. This is, after all, the internet. And it's one huge black hole where anything you take too seriously is your own damn issue.
Have you ever heard of the phrase, "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all" ?
till then . good luck and have a happy holiday
http://www.cafepress.com/furbuymdf
That would be really awesome if we could get some airtime on SecondLife. I don't know who I'd get to voice it, I'm sure I'd have to write up a script or something, or if you want just take a look at the site and see what you can come up with. Lemme know what you need from me, that would be really great, thank you!
Although FurPalnet displays current auctions http://furplanet.com/shop/custom.asp?recid=5 he feels people are there to buy store items and rather then doing the auctions or it may simply be that they are not seeing the menu option that links to the auction page. He is willing to work with you to create a proper banner to put on the front page of the site to hlep promote the auctions if you feel that may help.
http://www.furbuy.com/docs/promos.shtml
Good word.
All else fails, use fire.
Take this, it is dangerous out there.
*sets fire to the internet* Quick! Run to FurBuy for safety! * points at http://www.furbuy.com *
furbuy.com is rather, to me, like having a large sky scraper fall on top of me when I load it. Too much stuff presented too soon, and I will wander elsewhere.
If I was more awake, I'd have more to comment on, so I will postpone until later for further remarks.
So in order to become preeminent, Furbid would need to suffer some sort of catastrophic incident that took it off the internet for several months, to allow their user base to defect. But if it is hosted fairly reliably, doesn't charge extortionate fees, has sane admins, and doesn't go all 'ditch the furry element now we've become popular'... what you gonna do?
And while Furbuy may be totally free now, it takes a very strong willed person to resist the urge to start asking for donations or charging extra fees once traffic picks up and it becomes more popular. I'd hate to see Furbid run into the ground, for all it's quirks, to be replaced with a commercial site.
We have absolutely NO intention to ever make FurBuy a pay site. It started out as one, and that was quickly abandoned. If it ever does get too big for its britches, the worst that might happen is small ads (think little Google ads at the bottom of pages) or added benefits for paying site sponsors (regular members wouldn't lose a thing). That's IF we explode into huge popularity. And IF I can ever convince the site host that he actually needs financial help with the site. It's been free for, what, 8 years now?
I've got about 1/2 of them left, and I'm certainly willing to give Furbuy a try, but I will say that pulling your hair and and frothing even lightly at people over the "no traffic" problem won't help, they already understand that you people won't go there untill there's more people there, they just don't think they can do anything about it, and until it's resolved, it's not worth their efforts.
If there's one angle that will get me to look at you the site despite the lower traffic, is to show that you have customers that -buy- more often than not, not the number of auctions, or how high your customers are willing to bid on those few auctions that go through the roof.. I'm running about 1/10 auctions getting bids, on furbid.. beat that and you'll have me..
Plus, we have less traffic, but it's been shown that pushing your auction on your own sites, like FA, LJ, forums, etc. will get you more bids on an empty site than not advertising will on a busy site.
P.S. Frothing may not help, but public frothing at least gets attention, and attention is what FurBuy so desperately needs. I've tried everything else in the book. :P
...plus you can't have a good cappuccino without a little froth. XD
Out of curiosity, do you have your own website?
as for my site, http://www.lanceradvanced.com
Unfortunately, this is the nature of inertia for major websites, and it's difficult if not almost impossible to overcome even for top-tier sites. Consider how LiveJournal is still the blog/journal-type site and almost no one has even heard of GreatestJournal, despite the fact that GreatestJournal gives away all of LiveJournal's paid account features and more for free (like icons? You can have a max of 45 or so on LJ if you're a paid member for like six years. GJ gives you 2,000, yes, 2,000 the second you sign up for their free account) and LiveJournal has authoritarian admin drama almost daily.
Or consider how no one uses FAP because everyone's on FA, despite FAP having better coding and cooler features (it has tags while FA still doesn't even have a simple search) and FA has frequent major admin drama as well.
The unfortunate truth is that inertia is huge, and it seems to take more than actually being a better site to overcome it these days.
And yes, poor FAP... They got a boost during the Great Cub Art Panic, but FA came back and FAP is still off in the shadows. I think their main issues, though, are their incredibly slow loading times and their less efficient comment/submission management. FA is way faster, and that's something I'd switch sites over.
I started going throug the links and quit after viewing only a few. FA and FurNation have spoiled us with having icons of artists' works rather than having to link on text descriptions. Could you imagine FA without icons? It would be a ghost town here. That may be one of the problems with FurBuy.
When I get less busy doing work related art and kick out new some new pencils and airbrush work ill be tossing them towards furbuy. I havent been using it simply because I havent been doing art.
the user interface could use a rework. (ill mull over ideas on that but no promise of a great
idea from me in regards to web interface)
simple rules of interface
1: group the important stuff close together, signup, submit, tos, help, email the admins.
2: KISS
3: make it obvious what you do. (twelve years of isp tech support has convinced me people are blind or stupid or both, but you are catering to them.
4: visual appeal, this is where I break down on ideas.
5: treat your customers as much like gold as you can possibly do so.
that is my random two cents ignore at your leisure :)
I have been recommending furbuy on #artcommissions on furnet regularly, we get a reasonable amount of traffic there. swing in and chatter with the folks there just a bit.
peace be with you and keep up the good work.
2. Wilco, roger. Just, uh... gotta figure out what to keep, what to throw, and what to replace it with.
3. The word "auction" is on the front page 21 times. Should we make it in large bold flashy text? XD Seriously, though, what makes an auction site look... auction-y?
4. We've actually totally revamped the website's look to make it more appealing. You should see the old site.
5. We certainly try! If I could email chocolates to everyone for Xmas, I would!
6. Thank you for the advice. :D You've said a few things that other people have already mentioned, but that's actually GOOD, because that lets me know what's the most important. Maybe we should rethink the amount of content on our front page, trim down the words that people dislike so much, put more pretty pictures (Jurann's gonna have a heart attack at recoding that one), maybe leave a bit more empty space for the eye to rest a bit and not get overloaded...
I diden't claim to have definitive cures.
because of the perversity of the way human minds work it may be possible that scince you dont charge for anything done there that peoples hind brains assaign less value to the service. *shrugs* im definatly not a physc prof or anything like that tho.
We have a mascot now. We should do something with it, I think.
Thumbnails *nods* the internet has made us lazy indeed.
dammit your making me actually think.
I do support you guys 100%, and as soon as I get the opportunity I will be happy to throw you some participation.
PS -- dumb question probably but do you guys accept auctions for non-anthro animal art? Pet portraits, etc? Cause if that's the case I can use furbuy for my next completed piece.
Thanks, I think I'll be a lot more active now that I know xD
I recently bid on some Inuki works off there (and won, wooot)
I guess you just gotta.. carry on slowly? =/
Well.. thing is, a lot of artists dont want to slap a pricve on their work, they would rather leave it to the fans of their work to decide the price.
I may use it, if I ever get popular =3
You can't expect people to come to your business anymore, not in this market in this country. Here it's size of company over quality and quantity. God, look at eMachines and Paypal. Companies with the highest DoA and Return rate of any computer retailer, and most lawsuits and FBI Fraud investigations due to their questionable practices of any worldwide money transfer service, respectively.
You can have the WORST product, the LEAST service, and the MOST unacceptible business practices, as long as you have a lot of money and power.
You have two choices:
1) Sell out to a larger/more powerful entity for marketing (or just completely) which already has a large customer base.
2) Agressive advertising campaign. This includes incentives (First Auction Free! for example.), flyers, advertisements (I reccomend FurAffinity's new advertisement system, that'd be AN ENORMOUS boost!), buddy-signup bonuses, and exclusivity contracts (IE, getting some artists, especially high-profile, to sell some/all art exclusively only on your auctions) and storefronting (have an artist or similar create content that is sold by the establishment on their own website, and nowhere else.)
Hope these help.
I'd post some stuff for sale, but I can't continue print-runs and such until I get a new printer and CD-R drive.
I may take a look at the new FA ads, since they just started that, that might help a bunch. We've also been doing flyers at everything from RainFurrest (a first-year local con) to Anthrocon (we'll be taking some to FC too).
But, uhh, storefronting, bonuses and contracts... We're a free site. We don't have all the time and money in the world to do big things. We've got enough time, money, and manpower to run the site, but expanding our bases for one isn't what we want, and for two isn't within our means.
We don't WANT to charge people. We're not here to make money. If it was a business, sure, we'd be aggressive. But we're... just a free auction site. That's all we want to be. We just want people to use it, because it's better. And we've put a lot of time and effort into making it so, and will continue to do so.
Definitely go with a more graphically focused layout though. Keep the layout itself simple but put more emphasis on the auction thumbnails.
I'd love to cross-link with your site, we can add you to our FurBuy Supporters link page and maybe you'll get some traffic back on that. :)
I might be able to design a layout/color scheme for you, free. I'm thinking of something that incorporates animal print or colors... sort of muted, so it doesn't distract the viewers from the actual content. The point is to make the layout more interesting by using colors besides white, and yet quick to load and not crammed with a lot of code. Even just varying shades of blue and similar/opposite colors might be an improvement.
Welcome to Earth, Circa 2008 A.D. Ruled by the human race.
And I'd say that inertia is the biggest part of the problem here. Why else do people still use PayPal & eBay?
If you'd like to brainstorm some other options, I'm open to suggestions. Best to hit me on IM though.
My suggestion is to contact the bigwigs of the artist community. You know, the folks who say "I have an auction here -- http:XX", and people flock to bid. Give them an incentive to put an auction on Furbuy. Maybe find a charity and have proceeds head there. "Furbuy *hearts* Big Cats of Indiana week/month/etc." (ex.)
Spend the same time touting the usefulness of Furbuy, and give the visitors a reason to peruse the site and put it on their bookmark list. Maybe a contest to win a piece of art that solely uses unique pageviews. Get people to associate Furbuy with artists they like, and general awesomeness.
Just brainstorming.
-Arbitrary Plaid
I wouldn't mind supporting charities and the like, but we generate ZERO money from FurBuy. In fact it's been burning a hole in my pocketbook for over 8 years now. ;D It's a labor of love and all I want out of it is for people to use and appreciate all of the hard work that's gone into it.
But as far as traffic goes what I think you'll need is some extra content, not just featuring the products being auctioned, but have some sort of build community wise within the site, and bring that community content from things like "Featured Artists" and many other things like that. Have a main web page to show abbreviated presentations of each feature including a news update within.
The community portion would have to be slightly separate, and could use an IPB, or PHPBB or even a vBulletin forum system, two of which i'm familiar with because I run two forums of my own.
Those are just some ideas for ya.
As for community features, we were relying on the FA integration to provide that. But it seems FA has problems of it's own and won't be able to get to that anytime soon now, despite ongoing promises. We're still hopeful that someday it will happen, but in the meantime we're exploring other community integration options.
I'll go ahead and put this on "the list" of shit to do then. xP
I'd like to help if I can. I'll make sure to post the FurBuy banner on my websites. I'll mention it during my radio show and on SecondLife. And I'll see if I can pull some strings with my contact at Rabbit Valley Comics. I'm very good friends with the two folks who own the business.
Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you guys.
Last I heard (last I spoke to Sean Rabbit) Rabbit Valley was partnered with Fur-E-Auction, an even lesser known furry auction system that was being run by Kurst. I don't know if it's still even up and running, but if Rabbit Valley is interested in integrating with FurBuy, we'd be happy to speak to them. =)
Then it changed owners.
They lost pretty much all of those qualities right there. It's the honor thing that really made me change providers. I simply cannot do business on a site with an owner who has actively practiced to deceive others, threatened conventions, made up restraining orders, and operates under a false name.
There's something to be said for honesty. Furbuy has it. FurBid does not.
I recall being at a con where a dealer had to ask the organizer to change tables because the administrator of Furbid was hanging around too much, driving away people and was just generally 'creepy'. Go make of that what you will. I know I certainly don't trust my business with that individual.
Go with someone you trust to be honest, attentive, and cares about your business. For me, that means Furbuy.
no offense intended, but that was the first thing the conventions checked. and, if you wish, the order is still a matter of public record, is online for any who wish to check it, and may contact the los angeles county superior court to verify its validity (though it is expired since november of 2005).
i am sorry that the order itself was an inconvenience for you, and for the staff at the time. you would have been perfectly within your rights to have asked us not to attend and allowed jeremy to instead. that was, in itself, a gamble we took. and any good lawyer would have told you that option. in fact, i am still curious why you did not take it.
which convention? i tend to only hang out with people who either are friends, or around them. and, that number does grow on a consistent basis. i do know, online i can be a bit blunt, but i do value my time, and as english is not my native language, i miss many of the subtle 'tact' issues (so i am told), but in person most people and i manage quite well.
you are different, as i recall, you are still angry at me that i did not produce a paper document at aff for you to verify at that exact moment as to if furbid-sf was actually licensed. which, by the way i do recall informing you that you could do a search of los angeles city business license. you refused, so i considered it a closed matter.
after all, our licenses are not something we carry with us. they remain in our office. anyone who comes by wishing to see them may, as we are, after all, required by law to have our license available for such.
i think that is about all there flinthoof. i may be missing something, and if i do, i am sorry. though, i will see you at fc this year. i alway do so love the little chats we have. you are quite helpful at improving my understanding of certain subtle forms of innuendo.
Unfortunately, Conifur is not a law enforcement agency and is not allowed to enforce that restraining order. If we had denied the target of that order from attending, then we would be violating their civil rights. I'm sorry that Conifur chose not to allow you to force us to violate someone's civil rights. If you wish to have your order enforced, follow the instructions given by the judge (and on the order itself) and contact the law enforcement agencies of the areas you plan to be in advance. Have a copy of the order with you to show them and ask them to enforce it.
Do not ask a convention to play police for you. Also, don't threaten them with legal action for protecting the civil rights guaranteed by the United States Constitution.
I'm tired of this, Noriko. You have changed your name, used different aliases, made false claims, ruined what used to be a respected auction system and generally made a fool of yourself and brought shame and disgrace to this fandom with both your presence and your actions. I don't know why you do this, but please leave me out of it.
I asked you for evidence of your business license for Furbid. You stated it was in California, but you live in Oregon. I asked again later and you said it was in Oregon the whole time. Your word is what you put behind it and your evidence was never provided. Kacey has a license- you do not. Furbid does not. Kacey has the license. Please make sure people know the difference. Intentionally misleading people in business is known as fraud. I never refused to look up the information- I had a laptop there at the time and looked it up- you kept changing your story as I brought up the evidence which contradicted your story. Funny how that is. And yes, you DO have to have a copy of your license if you are doing business in another state. You may want to brush up on that. You tend to make up laws on the spot which I'm sure you believe in strongly, but that's all they are- belief.
I don't care what you do. I don't think anyone really does. If anyone asks me about you, I will answer them hoestly. I find you to be a dishonorable person with serious stability issues that I cannot honestly recommend to do business with. Your ethical choices are questionable at best and anyone doing business with you or Furbid are doing so at their own risk.
Simply put, you have earned your reputation in every way.
Live with it and leave me alone. I have asked you before and yet you still come by my table to annoy and taunt me. I'm asking you now in this forum which you do not control like you do with F-chan.
GET A CLUE
GET A LIFE
LEAVE ME ALONE.
Thanks!
Nice to see ya on here Flinters! I met you once at AC 2002 and read a few of your comics... somewhere. Forget what 'zine it was. Gonna +Watch you if that's ok? ^_^
am i to assume you are not able to prove your claim? either it is true, and you can have me put in jail for something so monumentally stupid, or it, like near every other thing you claim about me, is a complete fabrication based on whatever, i do not know really so i use the term whatever, and therefore is a lie.
you sit there, claiming how saintly and honest you are, angry at me for so many things i do not even wish to explain as it really is not worth my time, and you can not even rise to meet the challenge?
until you can, the only validation i will give you is that which i must when you are at fc, where i interact with each and every single dealer, because i must.
rebekah, please accept my apology for this not so pleasant interaction with dan in your journal.
- noriko
Fact: A convention is not a law enforcement agency and is not legally able to enforce a restraining order. You were advised to contact the local authorities as it is clearly instructed on the restraining order itself. The convention cannot violate the United States Constitution simply because you want them to.
Fact: You threatened the convention with a lawsuit unless your demands were met.
Fact: That convention called your bluff with a lawyer of their own.
Fact: You backed down quickly.
Fact: You are not trying to change history after the fact.
I'm done with this. People can make what they will from it. No, the convention will not open up its private records for your amusement. It is nobody's business but that convention's.
Please do not visit my table at Further Confusion, where 'i interact with each and every single dealer, because i must'. You do not need to visit my table. Do so and you will be interfering with business and I shall ask that you be removed.
Do yourself and others a favor and take a chill pill, dude. You're getting way too stressed over a hobby.
Do yourself and others a favor and take a chill pill, dude. You're getting way too stressed over a hobby.
and might i remind you, you are the individual who is out here screaming and waving a flag with nothing but words on a page to back your side up.
i merely have called your bluff dan. you have been attacking me for years, and i think it is about time you actually prove your point by having me put in jail for your accusations, or lower your flag and move on.
oh - fc - you may have an interesting issue then. but, you know that already.
see... i do not make threats. they are not good for karma. to make a threat means one is given no choice but to fulfill the terms of the threat. and to be honest... that often just takes too much time and creates such an inconvenience for me.
just like arguing. i dislike arguing. but here i find myself in the middle of a wonderful persons journal, fending off attacks and comment from you and flinters over there.
since in the past you have stated that my failure to deny something is acceptance, and many people who you have impressed seem to follow such, i am given very little choice but to disagree with your and dans falsehoods.
all of this, sadly, in k'sharra journal. which is unfair to her.
again, please, accept my apology for this. if they would prefer a more neutral ground, as would i, where it would not be affecting your journal, and it could again return to the topic of how to improve furbuy instead of how to attack others, i would be more than happy to vacate and go with.
Take it to notes, both of you.
I will not post again on this subject.
Get over it, dude.
Screaming and waving a flag? Well, for truth and honesty, yes. When I see someone spouting BS I will call them on it. I did call BS on you and you have have done what you can to avoid answering the question or try obscuring it with unrelated issues.
You live for the drama. I could care less.
Oh, one more quibble- I know you've gone to great trouble of late to state that you are not Nadia of Fchan. It's good to know that we can take you at your word. Your word is your honor. I know you treat that with great respect.
So take a look at your own entry for Nadia on anothe site that's been pointed out to me tonight:
http://forums.vivisector.org/index......n=profile;u=69
There you clearly claim that Nadia *IS* Noriko.
Hmm, interesting what your word is worth now, isn't it?
Truth and honor are demonstrated by your actions.
I've asked you in the past to drop this as it's not important. I don't really give a fig what you think. It's over and in the past. I never had an issue with Kacey- she's cool. It's you that I think is a mental case. But that's fine- that's my opinion and if people ask me for it, I will give it. I'm not sure why you keep dredging it up.
Just drop it, will you? I think people are tired of hearing it- I know I am.
I'll use it!...... if I ever sell anything else. :
And there I've said what I needed to say. Good luck with the site, K.
You gotta give people reasons to go to you instead of going to somebody else, and enough to convince a large quantity of fucking IDIOTS *let's face it, I AM right about that* to finally get off the "hurr... :B " sort of mentality and fucking get with the right people for their service.
Sadly, however obvious it should be, for many of these retarded dee-di-dees, it isn't, and actually requires something borderlining force to get them to realize it. ._.
Much of the time, you are comparing FurBuy To Furbid. To a degree, I know it's always going to happen. It will definitely happen in the minds of potential users. But I see you personally doing so pretty frequently. People have problems with Furbid, Furbid charges for this, Furbid this, Furbid that. When there was the problem recently with the Nigerian scam artists using Furbid as a pond to fish in, somewhere I saw "well, they like to brag how may accounts they have, but most are probably fake - at least FurBuy checks to make sure its users are legit" or some such thing.
I don't know if it comes across this way to anybody else, but to me it sounds a lot like the Mac commercials that slam PCs. It'll just irritate those who do use Furbid without any problems, making it harder for them to give FurBuy a chance. So my advice? Focus solely on touting the positive things about FurBuy and keep Furbid out of it. People are going to be more willing to listen to "hey, we have all these neat features for free!" than "hey, don't go to them, come here. They charge, we don't!". The latter comes off as trash-talking the competition, which is kind of a scummy way to gain users. Let the audience do the comparing.
Now, my personal experience has not been bad with Furbid. I've never had anything pulled without reason, and the one major problem I encountered (involving another user circumventing my blacklisting their first account) was dealt with professionally. I like Furbid because I find the layout user-friendly and easy to navigate. I've gotten a number of sales there, and yes, traffic is a huge part of why I use it.
I've had an account with FurBuy for years, but have rarely used it. This is largely because I don't like the way the site navigates, and initially posting auctions feels more clumsy aggravating than on FurBid (I don't much care for the being forced to upload to My Account - Images in order to be able to use the newer auction form). All the extra features are rather confusing (XianJaguar pretty much sums things up nicely above), and again - it's another hassle dealing with them. When I have time, I am attempting to get a few auctions going on FurBuy, but because of the reasons mentioned, Furbid remains my first choice.
As far as "slamming Furbid", I do my best to NOT slam them, nor to compare them directly. There is one sentence up there comparing our site to theirs, and it does not reference them by name. In fact, the word "Furbid" appears in the post only once. I didn't make the post regarding the Nigerian scam. It's inevitable that when there are two competing sites, they will be compared. And I never tell anyone to not use their system. Yet somehow, people read it into anything I say, no matter how well I present things. I think it's less a matter of my presentation and more a matter of interpretation. You are reading my frustration about a lack of traffic as being directed at Furbid, and so you automatically see anything I say as an attack against them.
Sorry, I didn't want that to come off as an attack on you personally. I realize you are generally pretty good about it, and it's not easy to avoid the direct comparisons in trying to make a point. People do read into it (I apologize, I'm guilty of it too, to some degree), and I guess a lot of that is indeed some people making it sound like you're trashing Furbid whenever they bring up FurBuy. Not you, but others. But the result is still the same - it doesn't make FurBuy sound professional. Which sucks, as it's one of those things that are beyond your control. I wish I could remember where I saw that comment about the Nigerian scam, and who said it. I knew it wasn't you, but that one really stuck in my craw for some reason and that's why I mentioned it.
I will keep an eye out for updates to FurBuy, and endeavor to post more auctions when I have the time to :)
Sometimes the best thing you can do is let the competition speak for themselves- embarassing as it may be.
Any site can claim that it's easy to use, but what it really boils down to is how the people are treated and their overall experience. Frustrations will come and they'll pass.
Give it time.
http://www.beckwithpartners.com/sel.....invisible.aspx
The book does address the very question you're asking. Here's a paste from the blurb about the book:
"Myths of Marketing: Why focus groups, value-price positioning, discount pricing, and being the best usually fail."
I've read the book and it says that people will usually go for "good enough" even when "best" is presented to them at the same time. It also recalls the success of the rent-a-car service that advertised "We're #2!"
I thought it would be useful, particularly because I recalled what the book said about Burger King's campaign advertising that their food was better than McDonald's yet it somehow failed. McDonald's was confident enough that they didn't feel the need to do anything.
The answer, according to the author, was, "The one who finds out what the customer really wants <i>first</i> is the winner." What the customer really wants is the key, and Burger King thought they knew what it was customers wanted. McDonald's figured out a long time ago that all people want is fast, palatable food in a clean restaraunt (McDonald's revolutionized clean fast food environments). I couldn't help but see a parallel between that and Furbuy and Furbid and I had to tell Jurann about the book. Maybe he didn't see it because it was in a comment I left in Maly's journal a long time ago when she was talking about Furbuy.
What I'm trying to say is that the answer might not be free service or traffic, the two areas that are continually being discussed, and the answer probably cannot be found if those two are focused on and others aren't explored, and it might be too obscure for people to know themselves why they use Furbid over Furbuy. I guess if they knew, they'd be good at marketing.
1. It would be really nice if furbid and furbuy would run mutual fixed banners. Really guys, you are not there to rake in wads of money or to fight bloody battles for dominance in a furry art market. So, as a courtesy to each other and furs in general - banners. Please.
2. I peeked at current furbuy page... owch. Overkill. Simplify, simplify simplify. Start with kicking the news off the center of main page. When opening an auction site, I wish and expect to see auctions. And big, idiot proof, turbo shortcuts to them. News may go somewhere else.
3. Get content in. For starters cajole or whatever a bunch of artists to use it as a storefront for their print sales. These won't be auctions, but fixed price sales, but at least it will create some life and activity (though you may run into complications on this way later)
Thank Clawcast, i clicked on their link that led me to this journal