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a missive about PIRACY and SUPPORTING your fellow furries
14 years ago
PIRACY
i'm not a big publishing corporation, i'm literally one guy doing a site. comparing downloading a michael jackson album with downloading my work is a fallacious comparison and downright intellectually dishonest. piracy hurts little guys way WAY more than some giant record label or film distributor. particularly in a small and tech savvy fandom like furry, where just about everyone knows how to do it or where to find it, etc.
on a small scale such as furry, piracy is self defeating. people can't put real time and effort into work without money to back them up, and as long as furries refuse to pay other furries for that, the quality of furry art and comics will always be sub par. people will leave the fandom for better work, and eventually just not contribute to the fandom at all. eventually it will leave mostly hobbyists, which isn't a bad thing, but the quality of work can't compare to a totally dedicated artist's.
i know that piracy is a thing that can't really be stopped, and i also realize that people who download my work aren't really doing it maliciously. they are just fans who are either too young to sign up to my site, or don't understand that what they are doing is passively harmful to another person. those that actually pay me and then pirate (post) the work, i don't even know what to say to that. it's really just weird.
SUPPORTING FURRY ARTISTS
a lot of furries WANT to support furry artists, and they think the best way to do it is to buy commissions. what they don't get is that doing commission work for furries is not even fucking close to a realistic way to make a living. the average poor person makes 1500-2000 a month. if i put my ass to the fire i can probably make 12 quality colour images per month. with what i charge, that's about 1200 a month. not even close to a decent wage for an average adult. not to mention good lucking finding over 12 people every single month to pay that much. the other option is to take lots of smaller commissions, but then you're just shitting out bad art, again lowering the general quality of work in the fandom. even charging 30 each, to make a paltry 1500 that means doing FIFTY commissions a month.
THE BEST way to support furry artists is to BUY THEIR PORTFOLIOS AND COMICS and SIGN UP TO THEIR SITES. the consumer furry is spending WAY less money by doing so, and the artists can actually make enough money to support themselves and they'll be able to CONTINUE DRAWING THE PICS THAT FURRIES WANT TO SEE instead of leaving the fandom to find people that will actually pay them something they can live on. plus you'll have WAY MORE really GOOD art! have you noticed how great japanese comics and furry art is? that's because, despite piracy (which is just as prevalent in japan as it is anywhere), it is WORTH IT to actually take time on furry comics in japan. take note, that's a big reason japanese furries, who arguably produce some of the BEST furry work there is, don't even BOTHER with american furry cons or websites. this is what is needed here. the consumer gets more and better work for cheaper, and the artists make more money, thereby allowing them to continue drawing awesome furry comics (and smut)!
TO FURRY ARTISTS:
you need to make more portfolios and COMICS and sell those instead of taking commissions. you will never make enough money from commissions. why else do you think that the best artists hardly ever take them? it's almost never worth their time. like i mentioned above, have you noticed the disparate quantity of quality work in japan and america? the idea of private commissions is virtually non-existant there. japanese furry consumers are used to paying for comics or folios, that's what we need here. the consumer gets more, good work, and you make more money. make good comics, and people will buy them. and you will get REALLY GOOD because comics make you learn tons of shit.
one more thing, don't overprice your work!! comics should be 8 dollars or less and folios no more than 10. i don't give a fuck who you are. DON'T RIP OFF YOUR FANS.
TO FURRY CONSUMERS:
you guys are freakin great, lemme tell you now. really. you're awesome. but i'm sorry to tell you that commissioning is not the greatest way to support your favourite furry artists. i know, it sucks! but it's true. you guys need to buy comics, sign up to sites, and buy folios! it's cheaper, you'll get MORE art, and it will be BETTER because the artist actually wanted to draw it! of course there will always be lots of free art here and at other places, and there will always be those willing to take a commission now and then for your personal character. but the more non-commissioned work you buy, the more people will produce comics, and more people will come to and stay in furry. you'll get more options, even more variety, even better art, and for even cheaper!! it's win/win for everyone!! imagine a japanese style furry convention, going to a furry con and having THOUSANDS of vastly different comics to choose from, all for great prices. it's friggin awesome!
so, there, that's what i think.
QUICK EDITS!
1. removed the TLDR because it was oversimplifying what i was saying. just read the thing, ya lazy yob!!
2. so many great responses, thanks everyone who has chimed in with thoughtful comments!!
3. this journal isn't about me or my site, i'm talking about the entirety of the fandom!! me and my site are fine, i have a really awesome core fanbase that i really appreciate, you guys really kick ass, thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you!!!
i'm not a big publishing corporation, i'm literally one guy doing a site. comparing downloading a michael jackson album with downloading my work is a fallacious comparison and downright intellectually dishonest. piracy hurts little guys way WAY more than some giant record label or film distributor. particularly in a small and tech savvy fandom like furry, where just about everyone knows how to do it or where to find it, etc.
on a small scale such as furry, piracy is self defeating. people can't put real time and effort into work without money to back them up, and as long as furries refuse to pay other furries for that, the quality of furry art and comics will always be sub par. people will leave the fandom for better work, and eventually just not contribute to the fandom at all. eventually it will leave mostly hobbyists, which isn't a bad thing, but the quality of work can't compare to a totally dedicated artist's.
i know that piracy is a thing that can't really be stopped, and i also realize that people who download my work aren't really doing it maliciously. they are just fans who are either too young to sign up to my site, or don't understand that what they are doing is passively harmful to another person. those that actually pay me and then pirate (post) the work, i don't even know what to say to that. it's really just weird.
SUPPORTING FURRY ARTISTS
a lot of furries WANT to support furry artists, and they think the best way to do it is to buy commissions. what they don't get is that doing commission work for furries is not even fucking close to a realistic way to make a living. the average poor person makes 1500-2000 a month. if i put my ass to the fire i can probably make 12 quality colour images per month. with what i charge, that's about 1200 a month. not even close to a decent wage for an average adult. not to mention good lucking finding over 12 people every single month to pay that much. the other option is to take lots of smaller commissions, but then you're just shitting out bad art, again lowering the general quality of work in the fandom. even charging 30 each, to make a paltry 1500 that means doing FIFTY commissions a month.
THE BEST way to support furry artists is to BUY THEIR PORTFOLIOS AND COMICS and SIGN UP TO THEIR SITES. the consumer furry is spending WAY less money by doing so, and the artists can actually make enough money to support themselves and they'll be able to CONTINUE DRAWING THE PICS THAT FURRIES WANT TO SEE instead of leaving the fandom to find people that will actually pay them something they can live on. plus you'll have WAY MORE really GOOD art! have you noticed how great japanese comics and furry art is? that's because, despite piracy (which is just as prevalent in japan as it is anywhere), it is WORTH IT to actually take time on furry comics in japan. take note, that's a big reason japanese furries, who arguably produce some of the BEST furry work there is, don't even BOTHER with american furry cons or websites. this is what is needed here. the consumer gets more and better work for cheaper, and the artists make more money, thereby allowing them to continue drawing awesome furry comics (and smut)!
TO FURRY ARTISTS:
you need to make more portfolios and COMICS and sell those instead of taking commissions. you will never make enough money from commissions. why else do you think that the best artists hardly ever take them? it's almost never worth their time. like i mentioned above, have you noticed the disparate quantity of quality work in japan and america? the idea of private commissions is virtually non-existant there. japanese furry consumers are used to paying for comics or folios, that's what we need here. the consumer gets more, good work, and you make more money. make good comics, and people will buy them. and you will get REALLY GOOD because comics make you learn tons of shit.
one more thing, don't overprice your work!! comics should be 8 dollars or less and folios no more than 10. i don't give a fuck who you are. DON'T RIP OFF YOUR FANS.
TO FURRY CONSUMERS:
you guys are freakin great, lemme tell you now. really. you're awesome. but i'm sorry to tell you that commissioning is not the greatest way to support your favourite furry artists. i know, it sucks! but it's true. you guys need to buy comics, sign up to sites, and buy folios! it's cheaper, you'll get MORE art, and it will be BETTER because the artist actually wanted to draw it! of course there will always be lots of free art here and at other places, and there will always be those willing to take a commission now and then for your personal character. but the more non-commissioned work you buy, the more people will produce comics, and more people will come to and stay in furry. you'll get more options, even more variety, even better art, and for even cheaper!! it's win/win for everyone!! imagine a japanese style furry convention, going to a furry con and having THOUSANDS of vastly different comics to choose from, all for great prices. it's friggin awesome!
so, there, that's what i think.
QUICK EDITS!
1. removed the TLDR because it was oversimplifying what i was saying. just read the thing, ya lazy yob!!
2. so many great responses, thanks everyone who has chimed in with thoughtful comments!!
3. this journal isn't about me or my site, i'm talking about the entirety of the fandom!! me and my site are fine, i have a really awesome core fanbase that i really appreciate, you guys really kick ass, thank you, thank you, a thousand times thank you!!!
what kind of free speech applies only to what you already like? it simply defeats the purpose to make exceptions -- any exceptions.
AD's journal is his journal, it's not a voting booth. He can do what he wants here. What's so difficult to understand about that? As I said, trolling is simply useless, so your argument is completely invalid. Have a nice day :3
now, pointing out a really painful truth and sitting back to watch the shitstorm that envelopes the journal owner, misguided groupies and antagonists alike -- that's trolling. and i already considered my work here done in that regard.
One of the best remarks in this thread.
You sir have won my respect.
I think people have the right to dislike something or disagree with something and be vocal or even rude about it.
The page owner being allowed to hide comments is pretty much the worst implementation of this comment hiding feature, since one can suppress other people's posts as one wants, and it's really more of a bawww-enabling tool than anything else.
I mean, just sayin, hiding comments is not a very smooth move. Case in point, whenever I see a truckload of those, I can't help but think "OH BOY THIS IS GONNA BE GOOD IMMA GO GRAB MY POPCORN". Quite the opposite to "prevents more from happening" isn't it?
artdecade:
"Furry" and "artist" at this level here is merely a hobby (don't overestimate yourselves)
If furry "artists" want more money, they should get a real job. There's still plenty of time to draw when you come home from work.
>>but i'm sorry to tell you that commissioning is not the greatest way to support your favourite furry artists. i know, it sucks! but it's true. you guys need to buy comics, sign up to sites, and buy folios!
haha no. fuck you.
The former is helpful, the latter is not. End of.
As you can see throughout this journal, there are plenty of opinions AD doesn't agree with but he hasn't hidden their comments (because they haven't actually flamed him).
Free speech means AD has the ability to hide comments in his journal.
Free speech means you can make your own journal about whatever you want as long as you don't slander anybody, so hop to it buddo
>>The former is helpful, the latter is not. End of.
Uhuh, and how do you know where to draw the line between legitimate criticism and trolling?
And trolling is also useful. It helps you grow a thicker skin.
>>As you can see throughout this journal, there are plenty of opinions AD doesn't agree with but he hasn't hidden their comments (because they haven't actually flamed him).
Perhaps they haven't said anything bad enough yet to make him mad and flip the fuck out.
>>Free speech means AD has the ability to hide comments in his journal.
>freedom means being able to take the freedom of somebody else away
uh...
>>Free speech means you can make your own journal about whatever you want as long as you don't slander anybody, so hop to it buddo
thanks, but I'll pass. it would mean giving you guys too much damn attention
And I was a furry first. Also, I don't do blatant trolling here. But I DO tell people exactly what I think, and I don't asskiss.
And if we were to classify individuals who willingly enter debates just to boost their e-peen, then half of furaffinity could count as trolls.
The other half would be people who probably never argue or log in just to submit a drawing or two.
And y'know just saying, I'm here since 2007 (not this username) and I've never gotten anything, not even a single warning from the staff. That should tell you a thing or two about my conduct.
God is in the details, or the Devil, depending on how you want to look at it.
And I don't really make a habit out of dragging pointless arguments on and on either.
I mean, honestly, I KNOW this guy is not gonna change his ways, I don't even know why I am bothering to type to him.
... so, why are you even bothering anyway?
is this a case of someone liking the sound of their own voice (or their own words?) if so, please seek help... this is a genuine regard because narcissism is a hell of a drug and it will cause you more frustration and issues if it's left untreated.
what do you even mean by 'real job' anyway? where does real job begin and 'fake job' start?
btw i hid the comments of pure trolls, not other opinions.
I think you and a few other guys are the only ones who think that furry is in the shit and that it needs to be lifted from it.
That's probably because your life revolves solely around furry and that's why you're getting all these weird ideas.
Stop it, let us enjoy our hobby without you stop-having-fun guys making a life-and-death deal out of it and get a life ffs, really.
inb4 you are not an artist, you don't know what it means to put effort into creating something. Oh I know alright.
And by the way, drawing "for the fandom" is lame, just saying. Perhaps you should start making art that you actually enjoy doing, at whatever technique level you want, at whatever pace and quantity you want as long as it makes you happy and just share it if you want for the sake of sharing it with people with common interests (that's what the furry fandom is supposed to be in theory)
And with being happy you will also probably not feel a strong need to baww about piracy and not getting enough money in return for your oh so precious artwork.
>>what do you even mean by 'real job' anyway? where does real job begin and 'fake job' start?
A job. Any, really.
I was more or less hinting towards a job you don't have a problem doing and gets you a decent amount of money with that 'real'.
>>btw i hid the comments of pure trolls, not other opinions.
You shouldn't have bothered. I am serious, you just shouldn't have.
do you really think my life revolves solely around furries? that is straight up naive! if i work at sears, is my life all about sears suddenly??
by your definition i do have a 'real job.' i make good money from my site. and i am making exactly the kind of stuff i want to do. more now than ever, with my recent comics. anyway, i'm not trying to tell more people to buy my shit. i'm talking about the fandom as a whole. having a more serious layer to that fandom doesn't negate the hobbyist side of the fandom, they aren't mutually exclusive. there's always going to be people that will take commissions, in all creative circles.
thing is, a lot of furries have a shitty idea that if you aren't doing commissions for people, you're somehow using the fandom or that you're selling AT them. you're ruining their hobby. or that you're 'corporatizing' furry (actual non-word i've seen used). where does this logic come from? how is it different than anyone else making a comic for sale? there is no difference at all!! i'm just trying to tell furry consumers that there can potentially be a shitload of awesome work for them to check out, and for cheap, but only if artists see that the effort is worth it. and the other side of that coin is that that artists need to actually try to put out more comics, GOOD comics, even if they fail at first, even though it's more work. no one is totally to blame for how furry is, and how furry is isn't all a terrible thing, there can just be a whole lot more great stuff to it if we change our attitudes about it.
I'd call distracting 90% of what people post here in general, trolls included, but whatever herps your derp.
>>do you really think my life revolves solely around furries? that is straight up naive!
You sure act like it does.
>>by your definition i do have a 'real job.' i make good money from my site
>'real job'
>my site
I somehow don't think you understand the meaning of a _job_. It usually involves working at a company.
If you really... desperately have this urge to be self-employed, don't complain when those damn pirates steal your day's meal.
>>'corporatizing' furry
I never implied any such thing, and I'm not saying selling your damn comics is a bad thing. Go ahead and try to sell them.
Also, most of us who do pirate your stuff wouldn't/couldn't have bought it in the first place, so, you're not really losing anything at all.
You're just having the possibility to get more fans (even if some of them will NOT reward you with money), but they might advertise for you and you might get a few new customers out of this. Some people (like I've seen in this thread) like to reward their favorite artists.
However doing this kind of thing you do here and dmca-ing sites that host your stuff is an excellent way to LOSE those new would-have-been fans.
Tl;dr Want more money? Go work.
Want more fans? Stop looking to them as either customers or pirates. They're neither. They are just fans.
Want more customers? Produce higher quality art, produce more of it. Be more creative and original.
Want more respect? Stop being a whiny nincompoop.
Also stop telling me what furry is or is supposed to be. It's something else for everybody according to their preferences, likes, dislikes, needs, level of involvement in the community made up by other people with similar interests etc.
Copying is not theft!
Stealing a thing leaves one less left,
Copying it makes one thing more,
That's what copying's for!
from a more, shall we say, Cosmist point of view, i believe what we're seeing here is an inevitable conflict between the birth of the Information Age and the old system of economy. the old economic system is predicated upon the fact of scarcity in the material world.
Artists' struggle to seek remuneration for their endeavors is not a new drama itself, but of course new artists continually arrive at this confrontation. in the end, i think the most practical or realistic illustration is thus: "a beggar strumming his guitar on the street with coins tossed into his open case" as one possible monetization of one's ongoing creative act, and the patronized artist who is often also termed "production artist". that is, those who create on schedule and under contract, being paid a wage just as any other laborer.
artdecade's personal website is the former case, no matter that it has a paywall or that it currently provides for his living expenses (itself a pretty frightful phrase owing its meaning to a scarcity-dependent economic system).
and i do have one more aphorism left for this: beggars can't be choosers nor kings.
Say you've got a comic that you made and reproduced using entirely analogue methods, however someone steals your master copy and starts reproducing and distributing it at a lower cost. For example, they don't have to cover the expense of time that went into creating it. You, the original creator get no proceeds from the profits this distributor makes, and worse yet you lose customers because this guy can sell your own work for less. Now imagine these alternate distributors can be ANYONE who has a copy, and copying is resource free so they don't have any overhead and don't have to ask for any compensation for their distribution.
You say the age of information is in conflict with the old system of scarcity. But there still is a limit on consumption, consumers become the commodity. Giving away free copies of someone's hard work destroys the audience who would usually pay for it. Making it harder to market yourself, because any bloke who can afford a cheap digital copy can start up distributing. Don't think everyone are saints who think "well I will reward this creator for their effort" after they've found a pirated copy. Learning from game theory, we've discovered that everyone fundamentally is looking to gain the system. So free entertainment means they can spend their money on other stuff that can't be digitally copied.
Digital distribution does NOT mean that now everything digital should be free. Because our survival is still based fundamentally on lots and lots of goods and services that are definitely NOT free and easily copied, the idea that content creators in the digital realm should work for free is foolish. The only thing that will come of this piracy ideology is the restructuring of the digital world to enable more control (see: itunes controlling all your digital media files) OR artists getting discouraged from producing digital content for money.
Now, there ARE free products. These are created in what's called gift economies, these arise because there is an abundance of resources. When people have more than they need, it becomes culturally profitable to compete to give away resources. You basically get paid in social currency that is totally intangible, but feels pretty good and generates good will. However, when the underlying economy suffers, and resources become scarce and costly, gift economies disappear. There is a lot of study about this topic surrounding the open source software movement. Open source basically emerged when the programming job market could not absorb all the folks who have a passion for programming. Same goes for the erotic art community (I think this has more to do with erotic art than the furry angle) The Porn industry does not have enough patrons to support all the artists and creators who want to make smut, so much of it is gifted away to generate good will among a consumer base of free smut.
There IS a gift economy surrounding smut, but gift economies have no control for quality. AD is right in saying direct economic reward will make smutty artwork better. Not only that his major point is just as poignant. The commission system, as conceived of in this community, BLOWS. More on this later. I think I need to formulate another post dealing just with this, now that I've dealt with this logic error.
you propose that the original creator is somehow incapable of reproducing his work free of overhead just as the pirate could -- are you misusing the term "overhead" to refer to the initial effort to originally create? also, the thing about digital piracy is that no one is charging anything for it because no one would pay anything for it, so you're also employing a lovely Straw Man there with your story about people reselling someone's original hobby. talk about "illogic", i believe fallacious allegories are right up there on the "do not" list.
why should a method (referring to unstable entrepreneurship) that cannot, basically, be monetizable be protected like this, warping and distorting the economy and incubating the most obscene censorship and thought-police-style control schemes...? why would you say that DRM is a good thing?? just because it keeps money (or tries to) in the hands of those who control the means of production? notice, DRM still does not protect the artist, it still only protects those who can effectively employ it for their own gain which is almost universally not artists themselves. the basic fact of the matter is that things like art production should not be protected under any kind of special controls. it's both immoral and bad for a free market. entrepreneurs take risks. that is how it works. and i'll point out that artdecade is succeeding fabulously beyond all expectations if he can afford to do it as his only employment ... um. and if that's the case, where's the argument about how piracy is ruining him...?
why is it that we make a special case for art when there's been antique dealers around since forever? you know they're pirates too, right? people resell items all the time, and only now that the middle-man recording labels and grubby production houses are losing their strangle-hold on the goods which their enslaved artists produce are they reacting with the most absurd propaganda and misinformation to protect that money cow. artists each have to grow up sometime and realize that what they do is not special or even particularly valuable, of itself. the commission of work is exactly how every other laborer in the economy functions, so all this whining about starving money-grubbing independent artists is just so much bullshit, and even in the case under discussion is demonstrably false!
gee, i'm sorry you're finding it tough to exploit a closing loophole in the system and still make out like a bandit. looks like you'll have to compete for a secured patron just like any other worker, now. oh the horror, oh the ignominy, to be a common laborer!
let's take a step backward and refresh everyone's understanding of how non-commissioned art work functions: a worker creates a commodity and stockpiles it under the assumption that it is worth something, then sets a price and waits to see if anyone will pay it. whereas any other laborer only performs work when protected by contract (a commission) and is therefore guaranteed recompense. the former is knowingly taking a risk on his efforts, and deserves the consequences of chance.
any other description of this situation is nothing but the purest propaganda and outright falsehood.
and also that piracy doesn't usually destroy a GOOD or SMART enterprise. but it can harm it, it can stifle growth. and there is no argument that will ever be a valid excuse for it.
it's better if people just admit that they are doing something wrong and that they simply don't care how they might passively be harming or stifling others, because then, at the very least, they are being honest about it.
tryin' to be as gentle as possible (uncharacteristic for me), but if you can't defeat the logic, if you can't deny the effectiveness of the argument, you should consider the probability that your beliefs are wrong. that's how atheists are born, for example, i should know, and i would also know that it's not fun and it doesn't stroke one's ego, but it's still the rational way to behave. rather than plugging one's ears and mumbling "i can't hear you". or worse, "yeah it is". in the end, changing one's mind is the grown up and honest thing to do.
it does occur to me that no one here has even bothered to present evidence... so far it's just been ontological debate about morality between disparate backgrounds. in before someone links a "study" performed by a group explicitly funded by the MAFIAA...
information is literally free.
replicating information is not wrong any more than having babies is wrong. in a very real way babies are reproduced information, you know. or, more currently, sharing information via communication isn't wrong, is it? maybe i should charge admission to this, it is getting rather long in a phallic sense, now. mostly because so many people get in line for the privilege of extending it. or is it more a matter of their own need for masturbation? either way, i suppose i'm satisfied to provide the friction.
also, if you would read carefully (i know, the big words, sorry, but do try!), you would know that i was not relating atheism to piracy at all. i used an example to illustrate a similar process, though.
on a different note, let me make something else clear. there's a huge difference between friends sharing something among themselves, and someone posting a link on an image board for all the see. one is sharing. one is piracy. sharing among friends being compared to piracy is the most dishonest comparison i've seen thrown around here. it's bullshit. no one cares about sharing with your friends. in fact, fuck yeah, share with your friends. what people care about is the piracy.
not saying this is a comparison you specifically made, just making a point of saying this publicly for others to see.
to find out how true this is: go to a restaurant you've never been to before, bonus points if the menus are in a language you don't understand. order something to eat and then eat it when it arrives. ask yourself if you ordered what you did because you had a good idea of what it would be. do you often order the same thing in your favorite restaurant when you go there? is that because you know what it is like and you don't want to waste your money to find out that you didn't like _____ as much as you thought you might from the brief text description? i mean, you're there to eat. you're gonna eat something. the choosing, though, is still an important step in the process.
and, i really must say, i can't for the life of me understand how you don't think "sharing between friends" is not piracy. they're making an unauthorized copy and distributing it... i mean, if you say it's not piracy, that just screams to me "hypocrite" or "backpedaling" or "weaseling" or ... disingenuous rationalization. smells like dogma, to me. "all these ten are unalterable rules that must be obeyed... and now for the volumes of exceptions!"... end of story? i suppose i haven't, here, made any real argument, i've mostly pointed at holes in others'. though i could have sworn that the little rhyme i presented up there did count... and i'll be damned if i can find an effective argument or logic (that anyone, including you) has presented to show that piracy does harm to anyone (not even just others).
i think there's an obvious difference between rationality and rationalization (in the sense you mean it). the former will change his mind based on actual evidence after consideration even if it seemed confusing or contradictory to his previous beliefs. the latter is simply a rational attempt to avoid changing his mind because the evidence would contradict his elaborate (and, since it is the "known") emotionally comforting beliefs.
being bored, i offer this for future readers: go do your damn homework. find out what is actually happening instead of thinking you already know. don't be satisfied, ever. always question what you think is true as soon as it is confronted. if you are affirmed, so what? if you are not, be man or woman enough to change yourself in accordance with your new reality. of course it's a matter of perception, of course it is! your choice is between your own illusions and those which others use to profit by, whether malicious or no.
As far as this conversation goes. The right edge of the screen is getting awfully close and I still haven't seen anyone discussing anything valid outside of impudent rage. So this is where I pop off and start putting together three short comics to try and sell as a neat little bundle. I just can't ignore the main point of your journal AD.
the difference between friends sharing and posting on image boards is one of magnitude, not of kind. that makes them the same thing, by definition. the context does not change that. if it mitigates whatever moral value is involved to you, that's a purely subjective decision unique to you (in the sense that everyone would decide about the morality of the situation). myself, i recognize that sharing between friends is just as much piracy as posting to an image board even if they don't have the same effect and even if the severity of offense, as i also recognize that others see it that way, is not the same. but i don't see either action as involving morality in the first place.
misapplying exceptions is a splendid source of confusion and internal inconsistency.
http://www.copyhype.com/2011/03/how.....more-evidence/
in fact, this might be the first place i'll announce: i'm preparing my studio and buying materials because i think i might have the free time now to do work for other people. i'm considering if i really want to do portraits/figurines of people's murrsonas an' shit. mostly i was curious if anyone else wanted small figures of their PnP gaming characters while i'm making them. i don't know. i don't know. too much to not know. just sayin'!
Piracy hurts the small guys because they need the business to stay afloat.
Piracy hurts the small guys because being able to see the art for free makes people less likely to buy it.
Piracy helps because it is free advertising.
Piracy helps because it builds a fanbase, and though many of them will buy it, a percent of people will pay for it, and as the base grows, the people in that percent grow as well.
Piracy doesn't hurt because people who pirate are less likely to buy whether they can pirate or not.
So:
The problem creators face when it comes to piracy is that counting the number of pirates as the number of lost sales will never work. In fact, if you look at piracy a TINY percent of pirates WOULD have bought but didn't. From people I've talked with most pirates buy a copy of something they find exceptional because they WANT to support an artist.
So when it comes down to does piracy do more harm or good it's not as simple as saying it hurts the small people more because they need the money, because they also need the exposure.
If you reach 100 people, only a small percent will buy your product based on their budget and how much they like your work.
If you reach 1000 people, only a small percentage will but your product to support your work despite the fact they can see it for free.
I can't concretely determine on average how much that percent changes, but as someone earlier said, even those people who really like your art but don't pay for it will recommend it to friends who are into the same stuff, and the more people you reach the more people with the wherewithal to buy your products are reached, and a number of people, pirate or not, will then buy it, who would never have known about your work besides that.
So while I think you are 100% right to say if you want to support your favorite artists, joining their site and/or buying their comics/portfolios is better than a commission you are 100% right. And everyone with the wherewithal SHOULD for the artists they truly enjoy, or else, like the "troll" (who I don't think is a troll, but some people see a negative argument and confuse it with trolling) said they'll have to get a "real job" and have less time to do what they enjoy, and have a less rewarding life, which can really sap inspiration.
However, to say piracy hurts ignores a lot of other factors. It's a shame it is hard for truly creative people to excel in our capitalist world, but stopping piracy won't help them.
The real shining example to look at is the anime fandom. The North American anime industry GREW out of piracy. In the 70's 80's and early 90's it was so tiny, just a couple fans with small businesses importing a couple anime, and a few corporations bringing things over and changing everything to make completely different shows. The internet came around, and suddenly people started finding out they were from Japan, small fansub groups came into being, where you'd have to order a VHS online that they added subs to with analog equipment. As things progressed anime got bigger as more people found it, and then free fansubs for download came out as technology improved and anime EPXLODED. Now with the much increased fanbase companies could afford to pick up more and more anime, and now we're basically getting anime on the same day as Japan for a lot of hype series, and then months later on physical releases.
Of course there are differences, but those differences both help and hinder, so they seem to cancel eachother out. Sure, the furry fandom is already huge, so piracy doesn't need to grow the fanbase in that respect. But when it comes to individual artists, there are 1000s or REALLY good artists, and finding individual ones can be by luck. and that is where piracy can help. Most pirates wouldn't by your work either way, either because they don't like it ENOUGH, or they don't have funds to put to something like digital artwork. Like someone said, the fact digital works are infinite really harms the value. Even though it's often better to have a digital copy, having something physical still holds more value.
I know I've been rambling, but I hope I'm clear enough to have shown why while it's always good to encourage fans to support their favorite artists, piracy on average does a LOT more help than harm (so long as watermarks aren't removed/artist is sourced).
way i figure it, depends on hat you define as 'help'. exposure is great, and it is very helpful. but exposure doesn't pay electric bills or rent. there's a limit to how helpful piracy can be.
i also disagree that because something is digital, and therefore infinite, it has less value. scarcity is a factor for things like precious metals or oil, not entertainment. you are paying for mental stimulation with entertainment, no matter if it's a movie, comic, etc. having a hard copy of that thing is only an expression of human's desire to own things.
In your head there is a model of a person that isn't me and an argument that isn't mine. I have no interest in playing with angry bulls who have shit communication skills and even greater capacity for selective attention. I refuse to play last word argument bullshit either, you want to taunt me or rip on this reply, go right ahead. I will not address you further.
If anyone else has anything to say about what I said that feels like being participatory in an actual discussion, go right ahead.
and just for the record, i couldn't be, or have been, further from rage (or hate or befuddlement or whatever other negative emotion).
maybe a few facts will help: information does, actually, decay and degrade with use. this has to do with the physical storage of the information and even simply interacting with it (the Telephone Game axiom). "copying art" was the preferred method of teaching art for a very long time. this is because art existed solely on the basis of commission, so any "copies" produced were worth only as much as anyone would pay for them... which is the true value of all things anyway, no surprise there. plagiarism is not piracy, and it's no one's fault but your own if you don't understand the difference. it's a big one. so the reproduction of works has never, historically, been considered "wrong" or "problematic", it has only been plagiarism that is.
no, i haven't had a philosophy course, nor an economics course and i haven't had to deal with "gen eds" in something like ten years at this point. having paid for everything myself, i felt the desire to make economical use of my time, and i move my degrees along quickly. usually when people find it difficult to argue with me it's because they're dim and/or wrong and getting emotional about it.
it'd be interesting to hear how you manage to deliberately create a laughable Straw Man involving a moral judgment about the risks of entrepreneurship. i'm dying to know: how did you think that one was applicable (or even meaningful) at all? oh, the ignominy... is yours.
isn't it sort of silly to squander your life (given to you by your parents) to use extremely malformed attacks (sorry, "logical debate") on a porn site dedicated to dog dicks?
anyway, i don't even want to respond any more. you think a job equals working for a comapny? how fucking naive can you get. grow the fuck up, little boy.
... sounds like someone hasn't read the site's Terms of service. not saying you have to censor yourself, just choose your words a little more carefully.
the rest? naw, not even worth trying since there's one thing i've learned... you can't just tell someone to get rid of an entitlement complex, they have to lose it with their own effort or circumstance.
these were just trolls
Though on the flipside piracy does spread your work and the people that want to pay for your stuff, WILL. Because there's always going to be that group of entitled folks who don't believe they should pay for furry porn because "art isn't a real job lololololo" So unfortunately I think at this point you're just preaching to the choir and your reasoning may fall on deaf ears.
Though releasing portfolios sounds like a great idea. I just might someday. Thanks for the tips :D
yeah, this post isn't for entitled fuckwits, it's for people that passively pirate because they just aren't really thinking about how they're hurting someone. i know there's tons of them because it's not like this is my only persona on the internet, i talk to lots of people under lots of different names. i know they watch me and read my journals. i have over 10,000 watchers and a fraction of them actually support me in any way.
make COMICS, man, they are way more interesting than folios and will sell way better!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Granted trying to sell comics as a portfolio sounds like a great idea; I've had stories stuck in my head for a long time.
But one thing I'm worried about is trying to figure if I want to sell my portfolio as an erotic set or work for what I want and keep it clean.
Is the a place in between I can settle for you think?
sell a portfolio of clean art, and then also have a separate portfolio for the adult/mature pieces.
Bound to get hits for both!
I think it goes without saying it takes good planning and composition to handle them both. :3
I've found it best to just forget about what category it will fit into or how to label it. Just right the story the way you want to right it.
If you feel your story calls for nudity or a sex scene then don't shy away from it! Sex is a part of life too, and it would be wrong to exclude it. besides, most people fined erotic scene much more enjoyable when there emotionally attached to the characters.
I hope that helps MisterHinotori and I hope to read your comic some time soon.
Sometimes I think it's just me, but the comics that jump right into the sex have characters that [personally] are somewhat shallow.
Perhaps if I add a little slice of life just to keep it real might help the reader relate also.
It'll be some time in the future, but I'll keep my chin up and look forward to starting it.
Thanks again. ^^
If you're not the type to read this, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5X4.....layer_embedded
it's the cookie monster tom waits thing. So great. Then come back and read this journal in full.
thank you for sharing.
a great way to to get around the inevitable piracy is to collect pre orders for the comic. offer an incentive for the preorder (extra sketches or some extra pics). once you get enough pre orders, release the comic! :)
Portifolios and Comics for yourself that you charge people a monthly rate are more personal and "what your customer wants" than a commission.
Yeah. No.
this is a kind of selfish attitude that furry artists have allowed to thrive. you're spoiled, and it's the artists' fault.
Personal is you pay what you want for an artist that you wanna get art from.
Business is selling subscriptions to shit that you can torrent anyway.
what is with that attitude
don't you read other comics or watch movies? those weren't personally made for you either
Just saying.
Artdecade has PAY ART
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-oLqMwzvBY
Yeah, what _is that_ exactly?
I only assume this because it is the reason I draw everything I draw... so if I didn't have access to a pencil, I'd probably do the same.
Like. Portfolios and comics are great. Especially for a smut artist. I'm sure you could easily make decent money that way.
But I draw commissions because they're personal. Someone's idea brought to life. I mean, that's the idea at least, even though my commissions are usually just characters in empty space. I don't draw porn, so my art typically receives mediocre interest, and I highly doubt I could make a dime off of a portfolio.
I also don't have the personal drive to produce a comic. Those take a certain manner of person to produce, I feel, and I am definitely not one of them.
Just throwing my thoughts around I guess. Like I said, I agree with you, but that's just my side of things.
I don't do it for a living.
your imagery is really emotional and furries love that stuff. porn is pretty easy to sell, that's undeniable, but look at something like blacksad or nordgaurd, it's all about relationships and people, emotions, motives, etc. they sell like hotcakes on sunday. comics are hard to do, but sooo fulfilling. i can't help but look at the prevalent style of furry, which is coloured lines, and think 'comics.' furry art is just perfect for comics!
anyway! it's not that i think commissions are bad, but that they've spoiled a lot of the creativity of artists in the fandom and created a type of entitlement that i have never seen elsewhere.
You do have a great point with Nordguard and other such comics, for sure. A great story or great art can truly do a lot of good, but I find those comics are sadly quite rare.
And I completely agree with that last statement, especially spoiling creativity. I have a feeling it's going to take me a long time to recover after I can take a real break for myself.
I wish I could draw for your site! It's not that I hate drawing porn, it just burns me out terribly, and I end up taking about twice as long as a smutty image compared to a normal image. I don't really know why that is.
If I ever feel up to drawing something though, I'll extend the offer your way!
I respectfully disagree with the idea that the best way to earn a profit is based on portfolio/comic purchases. This is entirely based on how many followers you have as an artist, and if you have anywhere more than 1000 it would surely be easier to produce work of your own and allow others to purchase what you come up with.
I find that as an artist with a not so large amount of followers/fans it's easier for me to produce commissions than entire comics or portfolios, mostly because I have little time to dedicate to such things outside of school and not nearly enough fans to equal out the cost/benefit of completing such a laborious feat. Of course, regardless of what I choose to do (portfolios/comics/commissions), I still won't even be making close to minimum wage. So you could easily ignore my opinion XD
I basically fucked this up at the start of this year, and that neat comic / pin up series I did went NO WHERE. Really discouraging. I shouldn't have let it set me back, but it totally did.
I have her portfolio, AND it was never paid for.
Do you really think it's worth the trouble? Plus you would have to jump legal hoops to get it running up fully.
(No.....no, not furry)
But comparatively, you wouldn't believe how much easier it is to throw yourself headfirst into the furry community and make a decent wage as an artist, compared to getting big in an actual gallery.
Also, as an artist, it's healthy to make attempts in as many media and artistic fields as you can. Whether or not it's a good experience or bad experience, at least it's something to learn from. (Which is why I try not to rely solely on furry community funds or what I get from selling my non-furry art)
You can't make any progress if no attempts at progress are made.
what artdecade is suggesting is potentially a viable solution, the problem with it is that you cant really put anything about art into one box, so while comics and portfolios may work for some, they are not viable for everyone.
And a lot of my friends can't draw, so I'd definitely feel bad if they couldn't see their ideas come to life anymore. X3
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry for the claim, but do you see where I'm coming from?
would you be willing to pay more and have just one really awesome commission that you could put up on a wall? if you think about it, it is not too different from the way fursuiters work now.
i think the reason why it doesn't work is the amount of people who make furry art as a hobby and sell it for next to nothing because they are just doing it for fun and have other ways to pay the bills
I've made it a rule that I don't go to cons unless I DON'T HAVE TO work.
this isn't even the point of the article.
make it cute, people love that
A number of artists doing like commissions. A lot of artists probably don't want to do comics, given what they can entail. You're really trying to fork a business model off on people who may be just looking at something as a fun diversion that gets money. You shouldn't be so presumptuous.
Far from proselytizing, he's just trying to help everybody out, and I support that.
There are so many fantastic artists in the fandom, and like yourself, they're just trying to make something with the talents they have. When they offer their work for sale, it's nothing short of robbery to take that from them.
I have a continuing subscription to ArtdecadeMonthly. At my hardly-lofty income after taxes, I work less than five minutes a month to be able to enjoy oh, 100 finished images, another 150 or so sketches, 3 different excellent original serial comics, and lotsa guest art from folks like
On the other hand, I also commissioned four pieces of art in the last two months, which while I love 'em to death, they collectively set me back the equivalent of a year and a half's subscription to ADM. I probably won't buy another commission for six months.
I heartily agree with Artdecade's take, and I would add that it would be awesome to see more of y'all forming online art cooperatives if the cost of a single-artist subscription site is out of y'all's reach.
THANK YOU MAN!!!
I enjoy a handful of comic books every month as well, but I certainly can't afford to commission Doug Mahnke or Ethan Van Sciver, either.
As for relative quality vs quantity, explain it to this dude: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:21016357
If you like something, support it, and if you have any respect for the artist, you don't post any art/comics that they charge monthly, somewhere, where everyone can see it.
And that thing about people making more comics, would be a dream for me, but I'm sure most of the artists that take commissions couldn't do so, because making a story is way harder than it looks, and no art skill could save you, but then I say stick to folios, but that also takes originality and most will worry because they just want to please their consumers, which is kind of what this fandom is at the moment..
People in the furry fandom don't make sense.
Therefore, you can't be a furry. It's impossible.
Also, there are large cultural differences between Japan and the US (one is more individualistic than the other), so the American market caters more towards a select few customers rather than pandering to a wider audience. This can be a bit of a double-edged sword, since it introduces more variety of characters and at the same time only draws in people based on liking the style rather than having consistent characters the audience can identify with (unlike the gaming industry, but that also can cause stagnation over time). My personal thought on such things is, it's much more satisfying after seeing a completed work to have a sense of "mine", rather than "yay, he/she did another comic for the masses".
Sure, it may not be as profitable, but then again I'm one of those evil people that believes furry is a hobby, and those who attempt selling to furs as more than a hobby as wasting their time and energy (due to piracy, furries in general being cheap, and a flood in the market of furs willing to deliver reasonable quality for cheap in their spare time).
Groovy!
Right on!
Fight the power!
Say it loud I'm black and I'm proud!
You get the idea
also i want to make short comics but it would feel weird selling a downloadable .zip of jpgs, maybe i can just self-publish with cheap paper?
but medium is becoming more irrelevant over time, i think
We can see there's still a huge demand for comics and portfolios -- regardless of whether those items are pirated or not!
Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Even if those items are pirated, they still technically have value. The demand and desire is a value, even if its monetary association doesn't add up, at least to the ideals of the artist/producer.
However, piracy does not completely undermine the work. I'm not going to be one of those people making a blanket statement that "piracy helps promotion" but.... in a way.... it is a little bit true. People who won't buy the comic, won't. People who will buy the comic, will. People who wouldn't ordinarily buy the comic, or maybe hadn't heard of it before seeing it pirated, just might be convinced to buy. This does happen, and a lot. It's no reason to justify piracy. But it is part of the psychosociological dynamic I'm trying to illustrate here, see?
Perhaps when our culture grows up a little bit more, and more people come of age and maturity, we'll see more people buy more books despite the piracy. That's my hope.
Specifically the concept that although it's easy to copy this work, consumers are still a resource. When other people distribute your work for free, they are diverting this resource away from you. The digital illusion make create this deceit that everything is free now, but that's still not true. The word of mouth angle is very powerful, but if someone is word of mouthing everyone else towards a free copy of your work...
But if you made another Small Stories or a Wanderer comic, I'd buy at least 6. Not exaggerating.
So reading this is an eye-opener, and I'm really grateful for it. Since I started doing my webcomic two years ago, the number of people watching me on FA has literally doubled and sales of individual comics and various merch items make up around 60% of my take at cons, and I've gotten pretty good at selling my stuff through the comic. But I hadn't considered just shelving commissions completely and concentrating solely on my own work. Now I am. I'll probably have to get a job again to pay bills until the passive revenue streams become big enough, but I think it's going to make more sense in the long-term.
Now admittedly there's a diff between doing comics 24/7, and doing them full-time, I suppose I could've made more if I'd had volume on my side. Plus I was doing a clean comic. Still, I can't imagine it'd earn that much more based on the effort and volume it'd take, since increasing comic sales requires time for promotion (something I never had when it was running). And furries can be quite picky, I had people refuse to read the comic because they didn't like the body types in it.
I'm not sure if I'm a special case which disproves your point or not XD
When I was in college, I thought that commissions were a great way to make money. They really aren't. I have had people tell me that my commissions are expensive, and compared to some they are, but considering the amount of time I put into them, they are rarely worth it for me. Add that I am a particularly vicious critic, as someone earlier said, so when someone gives me a commission writeup my first impulse is to revise it, pare it down, make concepts cleaner and more concise, which of course I can't do because it's deeply personal to someone. So I end up usually grumping my way through it, and only finishing it to get to the relief of not having to do it.
I see all the ads that cycle through the banners on this site advertising their dirt-cheap commission prices, and it makes me think "I am done. I am out of the commission business, because I will not attempt to compete with this."
I am known to take a batch here and there when times are especially tight, but when it's "Commission Time" I get this dreadful sinking feeling.
Also I have ALWAYS believed that the best way to push yourself and connect with people is to do what you love best, and let everybody else take it or leave it. Pandering to a crowd is a sell-out move that cheapens the heart that goes into your work, which is why I would sooner tell off a clamouring fanboy than give him a drawing of Grant's dick, no matter how many people might be pleased with that. I think just as many would accuse me of selling out, and they'd be right.
When I was younger I thought it was a curious phenomenon how "Professionals always leave the fandom when they get good." You've put into words exactly why. Furry is not a living, and it won't ever give you a raise.
As for the piracy thing, that has always made me mad. I hate seeing my work posted on message boards without my permission (Sometimes people actually ASK me if they can post my work on a particular site, and I most often say yes, depending on the nature of the site. I appreciate that!). Even if I'm not making or losing any money off the piracy, it's seriously disrespectful, especially when people play the "He never said not to!" card. Bullshit. Nobody should have to say they don't want their work stolen. People playing the "But it's free publicity!" card are also full of bullshit. Nobody needs to be marketed to a forum of thieves. "If you put it online you have to accept that it will be stolen!" Doesn't make it okay that you did it. All of these things are just pathetic defenses from disrespectful self-entitled ingrates who can't be bothered to learn to make any "cool" things themselves, so they get off on providing others with stolen work. These are the people who pay for your work and then post it. They're not trying to steal from you, they're getting off on the yays they'll get from being the person to open the oven and hand out all of your treats by proxy.
Anyway, 100% support to you bro.
i was a little hesitant to post this because it's a bit aggressive to fans and well wishers and to producers too, but i figured it might be something artists could understand, whether they agree with it or not
In the real art world, commissioned artwork is exceedingly expensive and rare. The majority of money artists make is not through commissions.
I think this is what's missing from this little internet culture. Where are our patrons and connoisseurs? Certainly, there are enough artists to choose one who suits your tastes that you can support the kinds of artwork they do. Why do you pester them with requests to make the art you want, when you are insignificant to them? You are nothing, you do not have the creative ability and aesthetic design sense they do. Why do you think your ideas are worth something? Now, I LOVE to brainstorming ideas with people. The only "commissions" I take, I treat more as collaborations. Where in I work with people who have some creative pulse, and we hash something out together. Contributions and criticisms coming from both parties. I still feel that I deserve compensation, because without me, the work would not happen in anyway. But it would be much easier if I could market the work to a larger audience, and just chalk the collaboration up to a creative inspiration.
Marketing to a large audience seems to be the best way to go. If you feel this impersonal, that's fine. As it turns out I find you trying to tell me what to draw is impersonal. You want artwork of something personal, draw it yourself. You know what I find personal, individual choice. Choosing to support the artwork of one artist over another, is an expression of taste and interest. That's rather personal.
Here's a quick guide to becoming a patron or connoisseur in this community. 1. Find an artist you really really like. 2. Ask them if you can give them money in exchange for artwork. Be it prints or digital copies. 3. Hold back the urge to levy your ideas on them, because guess what ... they have their own ideas, and there's a really good chance this is what makes their work so good in the first place.
There's a reason why most furry artists make most of their money on commissions: its what the fanbase wants. Furry is an inherently decentralized community. Unlike other kinda "geeky" fan communities like, anime (for example), where an artist could just whip out some Yaoi of the newest Gundam characters and sell a thousand copies, in furry, *we* are the stars. We create our own characters and cosplay as them (fursuit). In anime, you cosplay as a character that someone else invented.
That's not to say we don't have some celebrity characters... names everybody knows (Zigzag, Pandora, Fender...)
But it makes sense that, in Furry, content containing our own characters would be the "big seller". Japan may have a more top-down centralized fanbase (maybe its a cultural thing), but if so, there's is a different furry community than the rest of the world. I have two artist friends who were major contributors to major pay yiff sites, and both quit. Why? Commissions are more profitable for them.
Not to mention the very important fact that comics are a multi-artistic endeavor if they're to be good (I'm using you as a bit of a springboard to get this out, I hope you don't mind too much ^.^;;). They require at least decent art AND decent writing. I mean, there's a million factors to get a comic to sell. With commissions, you HAVE the sale already.
In short: I agree with Jaspian and give additional data why I do.
why didn't they try comics? too much work?
That is.... I see you saying to furrydom "You should buy comics. If you buy comics, the art in them will be better", and furrydom says back "But I don't really want comics. I want a pic of my character in a cowboy hat." What you think the fandom should want is at odds with what they actually do want.
If there were a central media for us to rally around, then high-production-value comics would make more sense, but furry is inherently a grassroots culture. We have no celebrities to make the stars of a comic (with a few exceptions, but those exceptions only have a limited fanbase in themselves and don't apply to the wider furry culture.)
Let me put it another way.... in the Star Wars fandom you can make a Star Wars comic, staring Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, and sell it widely across the fandom. In Furry, you can make an Extinctioners comic (MaxBlackRabbit), starring.... (I don't actually know whos in it... but this is what I'm getting at) and it only interests Extinctioners fans. You see the Star Wars fans come into the fandom already liking the media. Furries typically don't join Furrydom because of Extinctioners. We have no core media in furry. There's no "Great Furry Story" that got us all into it. Typically our story is self-written, and our favorite character is the one we made ourselves.
i'm just sayin, dammit, come check this out guys, artists doing their thing is kinda awesome sometimes too
The problem with this model is that financing a comic is expensive, and only furs with well-paying jobs or who're independently wealthy can participate, excluding most of the fandom.... so I wouldn't expect that to ever be the "norm".
Besides - Yamoto makes a good point. The furry comic market might become unprofitable if too many artists get into it because then they'd split the proceeds in what's ultimately a pretty small market. Commissions are guaranteed income, comics can actually lose money.
And Jaspen had the point of drawing people's characters. That's a right-o! Honestly, I had more fun drawing Yama then Jack because it was something different. Drawing the same characters over and over, or likenesses just get tiresome. The only real comic that seem to have a diverse cast, and as much as I don't want to use it, would have to be ASB. That's mainly for the soul reason that you're not reading about the same characters every page, BUT, you are still in the same setting which makes the world they are in seem bigger.
FUCKING COMICS, MAN.
This journal made me rethink my stance on that, however, and I'll try to do my part to help the artists I watch and love :3
in the meantime making porn is pretty fun, too
Government grants used to occasionally pay some artists enough to scrape by, but that's apparently socialism, and government money is more importantly used to bailout bankers and give them extra Learjet payments and vacation home renovations instead.
You're a capitalist. This is a perfect example of the free market in action, driving down the cost of even detailed commissions to $20-30. That's competition. The invisible hand. Non-commission art is essentially free, as it can be duplicated without cost. The only revenue to be had is selling tools to artists, such as wacom tablets or Moleskines. Because drawing art is a hobby and will only ever be a hobby. You're asking people to feel sympathetic to artists and pay them out of a sense of charity. The invisible hand of the free market is not known for charity or responding to emotional appeals.
This is occurring with all creative media, but furry art is ahead of the curve. This drawing gig can only ever be a hobby, you'll need to get a real job if you want luxuries like paying rent and eating. Sorry, it's the cold truth.
Yes, furry PORNOGRAPHY art is indeed very hobby-ish simply because of the social Taboo's and stigmas surrounding sex, and even more so because of the Animalistic Characteristics which are generally associated with "dumb non sentient beings".
While I understand you could be being very sarcastic with this post, understand that Art being considered as HOBBY only is something Artists through the ages have been trying to fight against. You can make a living through drawing, and Illustration is still quite alive and Breathing. Though most people these days are more interested in Motion Graphics, "things" that move and come alive.
Before that brief time in history, artists worked for wealthy patrons on commission. Afterwards, that practice will return.
Artists have been gaining an amazing amount of exposure through the internet and social medias.
The problems starts however, when the people try to use what does not belong to them. I think a great example is when my sister
downloaded an image of some guys photography art. She then Printed it poster size (looked terribly pixalated I might add) and smacked it on her wall. The guy was trying to sell similar posters for about 80 dollars a pop (valuing his work at such). This is piracy.
How did she achieve all this? The same thing that gives us exposure, the Internet.
The general public recognizes that art has value, they just don't care to spend that amount, nor negotiate somethings worth.
How do you quantify something that may of only taken as much as 15 minutes, compared to something that took 26 hours?
They don't want to have to think about it...especially if they can find ways to get it for free.
I'm saying that yes it's a problem, but artists saying "hey guise, please stop stealing my work" is a futile endeavor.
The point is to try and convince MOST to stop doing it.
Artdecade brings up a valid point in regards to reconsidering how much you sell your art for if it's easily reproducible.
That 80 dollars the guy wanted was for an image I could've found on Stock photography and PHOTOSHOP'd in 10 minutes.
Was it worth 80 dollars?
HELL
NO.
I have a friend selling FULL COLOR art for 5 Dollars, and sometimes even free if it's for people he knows.
I think he under prices the value of his art.
We as a collective group, are what create the piracy market. We sometime overprice, or overvalue shit. On the flip side of that, we sometimes undervalue ourselves making people question what is the actual worth of art? Is it a free commodity? Some cheap scribble that we can later throw away because we're done staring at it?
I overall disagree with you Cargoweasel because I think you're being overly cynical and negative about the consumer market. If you educate people to value art by using your social networks, (not through suddenly pulling all your art the second someone takes it), then you're moving towards stopping Art Theft and IP violation.
There is no stopping Art Theft and IP violation, it's the new world we're living in. I don't agree with it personally but I can see it.
Where we differ is that you still believe that it's possible to 'educate' consumers and make them want to pay a "fair price". I don't believe that's possible, because today's consumers have been raised from childhood to not want to pay anything for their music, their art or their porn. And even if they wanted to pay, they don't have a job and can't afford it.
the programing industry is tough as well, you have to be constantly studying and keeping up with technology. the second you slip you are outmoded.
furry "art" is a whole different can of worms
You're earning the income from learning to write a language that will most likely transition (or die) when a better alternative is found.
Art is pretty much infinite...It's not even limited to what you see anymore.
i don't think it's wrong to challenge consumers or producers to do better, or understand each other's lives better
as a consumer myself i take the time to buy well and be smart. all i'm saying is 'buy smarter' and telling producers to 'make better things'
i agree with the piracy issue but the rest of it sounds like you are addressing the rare individual who is trying to support themselves solely off of selling furry art.
You are an exception because you are devoted and have the skills to maintain a certain level of quality, but what you have is not a common thing
i just don't like the idea of insisting a business strategy to art because no matter how you look at it you are cheapening the end product
other people can't compete with your skillz
if you want to make a successful business out of your furry art then this information is probably useful, but I don't think it really applies to most artists (and art buyers) on FA. But like, i feel like you make comics because you want to make comics rather than make comics because comics = more money
And money I make by doing non-furry comics :P
To the point of also thinking about where furry art should go... It is in reality a luxury. Most people don't need it, but they'll pay enough when they want it.
I've personally considered off and on whether I want to do art for myself or for others. My most successful art is that which I willingly did for Free. Why? Because there were no strings attached. I did it because I wanted to, or it interested me.
Whenever I have been approached about doing art for others, at a price-tag, I've usually faltered or procrastinated and never end up completing it. Something about trying to appease others doesn't exactly sit well.
Though I think AD has a rare freedom where lots of people love what he does and know what to look for, so he can probably make whatever sort of things he wants to and people will still dig it. (:
Feh, hobby indeed.
I'd have to say I'd be on either side of the fence: I'm not bitter, but I'm a realist. For 15 years I've been an artist and a performer of original work. I've made... probably 500 dollars doing what I do, but to say I'm bitter after the dust settled just sounds like I weighed the value of my art to heavily on how commercially successful it was. Now, Cargo, I'm not saying you should not be jaded, because I've felt that way watching cover bands at clubs I work at make 10 times as much as original bands, but all of this art, no matter what kind, had to come from credible sources, from the hard working creators that started in an era where there weren't any digital programs that made it easy to retool visual artwork.
It started in the gallows, and that's still worth something. These newcomers that are producing their own stuff have every right to promote it and ask for credit where credit is due. In this day and age, they may not get it, absolutely, but if they all give up, as AD said, we're left with the fakes and spooks. Yep, the audience is stereotypically without, but sometimes artists don't pick what they love to do most, what audience that'll eventually lead them to.
Images and sounds have become formulaic compounds that are expertly tooled to appeal to a majority. There's programs that enable anyone to make something that looks or sounds FAR beyond what they could do with a brush or a guitar... but do you wanna placate to kids with empty skulls, albeit with rich parents? You might, but I bet they're just as likely to steal your work. Why not try finding those that can see the bigger picture?
I made a lot more working for clubs that had bands that played "Brickhouse" all night. Now I'm in the slums, working with original bands and making way less... and it's paying off in spades. Guttersnipes need something to rip off. What if no one ever tried to create something original? And as an afterthought... you can't really replicate something. To look at a picture that was drawn by hand, the textures and the energy, to hold that in your hands, to see a band play live when you're actually in the venue... you can copy or record it, but it'll never measure up. I'm not being nostalgic. It's the simple truth.
Now I have even more drive to start one aaaa
I don't disagree with your assessment of the situation, nor with your proposed solutions as far as they apply to you. And I'm not against buying comics; I picked up a few (one of yours included) at my last big con. But I'm not just an art fan; I'm a musician who uses custom graphic art to complement my own works. Right now I'm having one of my favorite artists work up a sign I can actually hang on my mobile toy piano, and I'll just say that I was saddened a bit by how little the artist is charging me. And this isn't a new, struggling up and comer, but an established artist with a long track record and fandom history. Suffice it to say that I'm trying to think of ways to make further projects more worthwhile for them; I don't know how copyright applies to printed materials, but I'm clearly going to have to learn if I become even slightly more successful than I am at the moment.
All this to say, don't throw all us commissioners out with the bathwater. There's still a need which artists, if they choose, can fill. 95% of my audio work is produced for outside clients; otherwise, I couldn't afford to commission anyone myself!
it's that artists can often fare better when they draw for themselves, and it's what many artists set out to do. there will always be folk that enjoy commissions too, in all creative circles.
I keep trying to explain to people why I won't pirate "bara" or any other niche porn/hentai art that I enjoy DESPITE my being incredibly poor.
It's one thing to pirate a major motion picture or popular music album. They have a huge market due to advertising and just genuinely running the show, not to mention the artists involved in those projects have already been payed and they aren't the ones making money off the product anyway. But the guy who spends hours working on cartoon porn in his bedroom and puts it online to sell doesn't have a huge market to sell to, nor have they made any money off the product until it's sold.
You've given me some great ideas with this journal...and, even though I can't fave it, I'm gonna just do a "+1" and we can pretend it's a fave. :P
The argument that stealing from someone who has little is worse than stealing from someone who has many things is valid only in such cases as an actual thing is being stolen. If a person can't manage to make a living off creating art, it's not the fault of people who aren't paying him to make art. There are billions of people not buying the products of any given artist. This is not their fault, but the fault of the artist for not making art that is bought. In this case, it appears you are trying to make a living off of obscure fetish art. The market cap for "pictures of manly human-animal hybrids having gay sex with each other" may or may not be large enough to support more than one or two average incomes.
Additionally, unless one simply needs to download the complete discography of Crimson King to save your ailing mother, intellectual property theft can be only wrong in all circumstances. Nearly any party being stolen from will be upset even if there is no material monetary loss. Regardless of how it has hurt people, more than 95% of people under the age of 30 have been found through studies to have pirated copyrighted material on the Internet; it is difficult to imagine the author, himself, to have never downloaded a song which he did not pay for. I would imagine the likelihood, while not zero, is very, very close to zero.
There is no marginal advantage to the person who supports a furry artist with small amounts of currency. Whether or not that one individual person buys one individual portfolio is not material to whether or not the next image is produced. Also, being that not buying something does not harm the artist any more than ignoring the artist will harm him, the vast majority of people will not ever pay for something they could otherwise get for free, except in which cases it causes immediate and direct harm. As not giving someone money for producing things you enjoy does not actually harm them, people do not register it as doing so.
People who want to make a living off of art have to find a way to monetize it that works. Just the music industry is finding that piracy is beating down album sales, they have found alternative streams of revenue utilizing the value of music. Telling your audience to give you money and purchase your products in the way you offer them when they are not already doing so has never meted out more than a pittance.
Someone in your position looking to make money off of furry fetish art could consider the following:
: Paid cameos by readers
: Take paid commissions for story ideas, storylines, or entire comics
: High-priced auctions; some popular artists can make more than five hundred dollars for a single image
: Doing furry art part-time and pursuing other projects or employment outside of that
: Make membership more attractive to subscribers
: Make people want to pay for your art. There are plenty of people who live off making webcomics that are free to the Internet because people like them and like buying their things
: Other things that I can't think of
The amount of financial loss done by one person pirating $10 worth of music or $10 worth of art is $10; this is assuming that he definitely would have paid for the product if it was not possible to pirate it.
The statement I made was not that it is right to violate intellectual property laws, but that it is just as wrong to do so to any given person. You would certainly be able to make a strong living off your work if you were to diversify out of the field of fetish pornography as you've more than demonstrated the ability to do so. That is to say, you have the option to do many things that would pay you more, but you choose to do this particular, low-paying work; that decision on your part does not make it any more or less wrong to pirate that same $10 worth of your work.
We live in a world where art is no longer a scare good. Once the original is made and digitized, it's infinitely redistributable and reproducible for no cost, and it will happen. Whether this is ethically or morally right is irrelevant, because it's reality.
If people started doing more comics, they wouldn't be making money from sales. They'd be making money from voluntary donations disguised as an exchange of product. Which is fine! It means that the fan consciously wants to support the artist.
In this new world where art and culture are physically, irreversibly free, we need to give fans a reason to give us money. That reason could just be making enough of a connection so that they'll pay instead of download free.
Or it could be a whole slew of other things. On Your Face is a Saxophone, I've been experimenting with fan club memberships, DVD pre-sales, selling producer credits, and some other stuff. It's been mildly successful so far, and I'm making changes along the way to make it better. There's no right answer, though, except for what works for each project.
We're artists; let's apply some of our creativity to our business models.
With works people primarily only want to see on the computer, such as drawn fetish pornography, this amount is better placed at 90% of consumption because I mean:
: Not many people buy books
: Nobody buys comic books
: You can't display pictures of cartoon animal penises on your wall I mean you can but I mean
: You should probably not show or share it to anyone ever
: Actually I can't think of any reason at all I'd want a hard copy of dog dicks monthly I am very happy having it safely on my hard drive thank you
: Nobody wants to pay for anything on the Internet even if it costs less than a coffee no matter what it is
One possibility that's worked for other artists I forgot to mention is this:
: Have a tip meter that fills up as money comes in and release the next image in queue every time it fills up; subscribers see the marginal benefit of tipping the artist to receive the next image. People like seeing the direct effect of their money and are much more likely to donate 10% of the cost of the next page of their favorite comic rather than 0.01% of the yearly salary of the artist.
Although for artists who are just starting out, it's probably best to do work at a loss for a while to get your name out. When you're small, obscurity's a bigger problem than piracy.
The most obvious solution is to monetize your product before it is released. It seems salient enough to me in theory if nothing else.
I will argue this : Vastly, people believe art shouldn't be paid for. Since art/images are so prevalent on the net, people are used to them being "free" to them. Therefor the idea that art, despite whether you like it or not, should have value like any other service by the merit of the effort and time put into it is often ignored or thrown out.
So if I order a custom cake from a bakery I must pay a price that reflects the materials, workservice/skill, tax, etc and am expected to pay this price without complaint (OR a fursuit, if the example need be furry, but the problem is furry themed businesses not being taken as seriously as any other service), but if I were to draw a custom piece of art that used my materials, my time and years of skills there are people who would think that's bullshit. There are a great many clients who *do* see the merit of my work, which I appreciate greatly, but there are many who act like I charge too much (again, the argument of min wage, if every other job can have one, why not here?) or don't want to pay at all. Those folks do tie in to your argument about profits, I believe, but more for the fallacy that any and all art should always be free to them because it's the internet (whatever other excuse) rather than seen as another goods and service.
(I can only hope I made some sense, apologies for the run-ons in advance)
While fine art retains its value, comic art is slowly joining graphic design as a creative branch of marketing. It promotes things that are not the actual art, but rather, related merchandise and products. I would be surprised to hear that more than a very small number of people make a living off the actual publishing of webcomics. Those that succeed tend to have broad appeal; most of them have the theme of "two adultlescent nerds who play games on the Internet...and a girl, too!" I heard someone that the number was around fifty people, all of whom are household names on the Internet.
Art if my full time job, it covers my bills but I also freelance and do other illustrations outside furry land.
When I did make a comic (I wouldn't call it FOR furries but it was anthropomorphic) the comic supported itself, even if the comic was free and was by donation type model (which I don’t really recommend any more). People donated, I also had a wider audience outside furry land, actually more people outside this community donated even if my characters were talking animals. It ended up being mentioned in print several times which lead me to the freelance work I have now.
If artists focused on a project if it's a paid site, portfolio or comic it can pan out to be better in the long run of a career. Everything is a risk, not all projects pan out or ends up with an audience. So you try, try again. Lighting in a bottle doesn't happen overnight but you can't damn yourself for at least trying since commissions are great but they are not reliable income alone. By no means am I saying not commissions artists but paying smaller amounts for sites, comics, etc is also just as good!
One thing is an erotic story and another thing is a story with sex in it.
In an erotic story the characters are sexual beings, the ambient incites you to want have sex, the story overall revolves around the character's desire to want to have sex, they have to and when it happens it's something very sensual, very erotic.
A story with sex in it is just that. A story with characters who just happen to have sex at some point in the plot. It just happens and that's it.
I hope this helped ya and don't be intimidated by either or both =3
Case in point is Bill Ward. Here's an example of what I'm talking about (NSFW)
http://www.billwardarchive.info/gallery/v/King/
i really like your comics, too! your art is great, please draw more :)
Stone-cold truth!
Yes, they're visually better than much of the stuff outside Japan but Don Bluth has made a great example that just because it's better looking it doesn't mean it's good (Ubisoft has been proving that for quite a while too!)
Big example: In English there's Horse, Mare and Foal. In Korean they only have one word for them all and it's Mal for the three. My Korean teacher was pissed at this and many other things =3
I just find Western artists to be more diverse than Japanese artists.
now if only I could find some Japanese friends
A close second one would be Full Metal Alchemist and you have to give credit to the author because that's the only straight manga/anime where you can tell who's male and who's female =3
Overall you have to look at manga/anime aimed at the female audience because it aims to have some plot but the downside is that the characters are so feminine they're one scissor cut from being about lesbians. Still it's than most manga/anime aimed at the male audience 'cause the majority are just a POS to sell robots and toys.
I kinda agree, kinda disagree.
I think commissions are great. There's a personal relationship between a commissioner and artist there that you wouldn't receive otherwise if you're just handing out comics or DVDs. And, you know, people are attached to their fursonas and want to see them drawn. Its away to express their self when they themselves aren't able. I don't think this will ever fall out of style here in Americas/Europe. And it is probably the safest way to earn money without worrying about rampant piracy shitting all over your income.
But I do think it's worth it for artists to work on comics and general sellable illustration. You would probably take a lot more time to create something great if it's your own than if it were for a commissioner. And yeah, commissions aren't the best way to make money...
...But I wouldn't tell people not to buy commissions. :P That's how I'm making my money right now. I'm not good enough at making comics and I don't have a collection worthy of selling a subscription site to or a CD.
I was also thinking of, once my "one piece of art a day in august" ends, I will try "3 comic pages a week in september".
i'd love to see a comic from you, really really really
Also... Hehe, it would be fun if I could make a chapter of something next month... or maybe a bunch of unrelated strips, I dunno. I still haven't thought about it, but I know I want to take a break from my drawing a day pace, and maybe work on something larger. I'm not that confident in my comic abilities at all, I barely know how to organize panels, but I'd like to see how far I can get with a project like that. 12 pages in a month!
some artists like commissions and are suited for working with writers. those artists should get together with writers, create works, divide the profits.
creators also really need to try to do new things, make smarter stories, even if they are porno.
TL:DR: Great idea!...but mostly people with some popularity will have much more success with it than others.
*bookmarks this journal*
...
Ok not really I'll probably just not read them
The problem with good comics is they need good writing and decent art, which is a pretty hard combo to get :\
It's kinda why I like buying indie games over AAA titles
it's always sad to see in a web, guys asking "anyone have that (image of artist)"... and always want to say to those people, plz if you want to see his art, support then instead steal his work... :/
I'm not the best person to say that, 'cos i havent got a credit card yet, so i cant support them, but my first thing that I'll do when i have my credit card, will be support the artist I like
and create a comic is hard D:, appart from the art... im trying to be better with the furry art, 'cos im starting in this style of art, and there arent nought tutorials in internet, I think that it deppends of the artist than the money
well ad you know i told you some links where they steal your art -.- if i cant delete it by myself
hmm i cant be on all the time and delete them for you and other .-. and i guess you cant do this too :<
If you want to see the art they work on. check their fa. if its a pay site. pony up the dough. trust me. ART SUPPLIES AINT CHEAP PEOPLE!
Anyone genuinely complaining is just a selfish hobbyist, starving artist is no joke people it's extremely difficult to make a profit off something as abstract as art especially when when the consumer can find someone else who can do it for a lower price and even better quality. Which will always be the case since most skilled artist can actually learn how to draw like you just by studying a few sketches.
But this is really for more established and well known artist than your average joe because I couldn't do this, where would I begin?
i've been doing art for just over a year now and am almost entirely unfamiliar with the business of buying and selling art. im really glad i got to read this before i started doing commissions because, from what i knew, a lot of artists did them so i thought it would be a good idea myself.
as for the piracy, it must be unbelievably frustrating to see people interfering with how you make a living, i always buy the albums and merch of the tiny unknown bands i listen to because i know that they cant go on without support
piracy is frustrating but it's better to come to terms with it, for sure! a lot of people think i'm whining about piracy here, really i'm just expressing some very TRUE thoughts on the subject :)
About piracy, it's a hard pill to swallow. But then I think there's also the popular mentality of demonizing pay sites in general. In the beginning of working for CS I would see my stuff pirated with the tagline of 'not worth buying' and it really sat in my gut like a stone. However, I knew that giving up trying to be compensated and appreciate that folks looked at my stuff was quitter talk. Instead, I just worked harder on my art and tried to make it worth buying. To tell the truth I feel better for it. I value my hard work a lot more now. I also appreciate the chance to get to work on the things I enjoy personally and see compensation for that.
When I found that I was really waring myself thin by producing so many commissions a month, I stopped advertising. I take commissions by inquiry at this point and stream a limited amount per night. And as you said I'm looking to get myself out of taking commissions for a living by trying to get to my next studio job. A lot of people in the fandom I encounter don't get that this IS what I do for a living and somehow expect what I do for free. Even had some schmuck note me about how he thought folios should be for free based on the logic that they are online and because I get so much attention that he's somehow entitled to my work for free. Honestly I'm done with that, upon getting this hopeful job and wrapping up my current set of commissions, I'm only going to post what I like, work on my personal projects and carve my own way from there.
I have an excellent work and business ethic but I'm not going to provide services any longer to those who feel they are entitled simply because they don't see it as work. My monthly rent, school bills, Internet, bi monthly car payments, credit card, groceries and gas to my car can't afford a clientele base like that.
Seriously dude thanks for posting this.
What you have to say about artists moving on, right on. I totally agree. I...feel that way myself. I'm tired of having to defend MY LIVING, my JOB, the way I keep a roof over my head because some people think that having spent years of my life honing a skill, going to college, creating my own business shouldn't be treated like a job like any other business or freelance craft or service. Min wage an hour, policies, and restrictions. When you buy custom leather jacket, does the copyright transfer? When you commission a custom piece of furniture, do you think $5 should be the price? Or do it for you for free?
People need to realize : Just because a business or service is on the net, does not make it free to run, host, or make. Time is money too. Money is what we (still) need to survive - pay our bills, buy our food, etc. You know what not spending money on a business does? Makes it go away, and I know enough artists who when their job pays more, they drop how much furry art they do in their spare time. (I don't have the luxury of another job right now, nor would I find one that would be income wise better due to my problems.) I don't know how much more obvious and simple to make that sort of statement, but I do understand if you have no clue about the working value of a dollar, you won't get it. Ie, you have to earn and spend on your own for the most part to "get" the concept and true impact of money to empathize with others about it.
I have heard an argument in piracy : "I can't afford it now, but will buy it later". That's if you remember, I gotta say. But if you didn't intend to buy it, it's not lost revenue. I think piracy more has to do with the "the internet should be free" (because servers, technology, time programmers spent ....comes free too?) mantra that mostly folks who, IO, don't understand shit costs money, use to justify pretty much every action here. The internet : not as free and anonymous as you think.
As an independent consultant, I earn tons of more money than most of people people in the IT world, this is fact. To "join a club and share the wealth" is not in the best interest of myself, sorry.
I disagree with your no-commission outlook.
Regarding piracy, I also disagree to a point. Piracy makes people popular. While too much piracy will make you poor, piracy itself is publicity for those who are looking to pay good money. Piracy hurts shitty artists, but piracy makes awesome artists even more money through future commissions. If you don't understand this, you're rather A) a shitty artist or B) just a stupid poorfag.
It makes sense for the most popular artists to stop doing commissions, as far as earning money is concerned.
More fans means more people will buy an easily reproducible comic or access to your porn site, while commission work will hit a wall sooner or later: not enough time to do more commissions. You can up the price, but then it hits another wall of being just too expensive and getting fewer commissions.
Also, there's a whole lot of people doing commission work, which makes some crazy low prices compared to the work these people are doing. Comics are an area that could see some growth.
As for piracy, that's only true if the only way to have access to the media for free is through piracy.
An artist can do his own advertising and offer free pics on his own terms and that works fine.
Not that there's much to do about piracy anyway.
There's already several magnitudes more entertainment in the world than anyone could ever consume. You could spend your whole lifetime listening to some subgenre of music and still not hear all of it, you could spend your whole life reading some genre of books and there would still be more, you could spend your whole life watching movies and not run out. It's impossible for all the content producers to survive in the competitive entertainment environment the Internet has brought us.
The market of digital goods is an economy of abundance and you can only make money by monetizing your popularity, not through artificial scarcity of your goods. You know it's true, you'd never be where you are now if it wasn't for the people who love and share your work. The whole damn furry art scene would be nowhere if it wasn't for the people who keep sharing the things they love and bringing new people in.
It's true that the number of paying customers has to grow if the furry economy is to grow. However, studies about copyright infringement in music shows that people who pirate most music are also most likely to spend their money in it. I hypothesize that the same holds true for furry art as well, and you should treat pirates as potential future customers instead. It's not like they're paying someone else to get your art, so they still have their money left to spend on something. You just have to give your fans an incentive to spend their money on you.
TL;DR - The idea of more comic purchases and subscriptions will only work if the pirates make your works more known and thus bring more paying customers to the scene.
It's probably been said before but there are far too many comments for me to read at the moment: I think it's an undeserved sense of entitlement that keeps people pirating artwork. We're a species of constant want, but this is probably the first generation that has everything at its fingertips, ranging from inconsequential to downright criminal. It spoils us rotten, and as long as there's nobody to foster an attitude of "the right to earn your keep", these assholes are going to keep pirating unchecked.
For a $10 commission EVERYONE gets a custom image of your original character.
Alternatively, EVERYONE has to pay $12 for those 30-37 new images from a subscription service.
I believe AD wanted over $2000 a month income, so that would mean 160 people paying a total of 1920 dollars for those 30-37 images.
Or .... if 160 people paid ONLY $10 each to get stuff commissioned, EVERYONE would have 160 drawing instead of 30 to 37. As a bonus, they'd all be drawn by different people, with different styles, not the same thing you've seen over and over again.
You speak of "sense of entitlement" of pirates, but I think it goes both ways. Some people seem to have this strange belief that they're entitled to other people's money.
I'm not going to fault you for wanting several other artists showcased by providing original, custom content. But like a musician still trying to make something of himself by producing albums, an artist producing portfolios and comics that they can sell inexpensively seems a lot more economical than attempting to meet the demands of countless different customers.
why is it frowned on to produce art and ask for money to see it? isn't that what all comics, movies, books, entertainment, is?
Bottom line for me is I'd pay for commissions, but I wouldn't pay for portfolios (I wouldn't pirate them either).
Sorry but when you do a portfolio of art it's not personalised to me and I usually don't think it's worth spending my money on others may disagree and that's fine, but as long as there is demand there will be people who do it and personally I think having the choice is a good thing. I'd ask why the asian market hasn't expanded to include comissions, not why have we not contracted to an entirely consumer based, you buy what we sell because you have no choice system. I'd also wonder what would happen to a lot of artists currently on the edge of greatness who may find it very difficult to compete in a porfolio/comic only based system as surely people would just buy for the best artists. With comissions a lot of these artists are not free most of the time and people settle for great artists instead of amazing ones etc. They could spend hours of time producing a portfolio which would end up bringing much less of a return than say 20 comissions.
I'm happy to buy comics and have bought several even without the personalisation a story is worth ready 20 random images in a portfolio do nothing for me and if i want random images sites likie FA are full of good quality stuff and i think it would be a very sad day for the community if every single one had a price tag.
I refer to my original comment way above this one I remain unconvinced, your original post is mearly a summary of the pro's not an even handed impartial review. You have stated your opinion/preference as if it is fact with no real assessment of the pros and cons. My mind is not closed to the option but your arguements are not convincing and resorting to veiled insults and dramatic warnings makes me doubt your ability to debate this in a civilised manor so I will not be responding further.
Sure, right now I'm just looking for a steady job, but for the future, and partially for the now, I'm building on my website and brand that I had to create in college. Probably the most useful thing that was ever required of me. Constantly rebranding in this young stage, and after reading that reddit article, I'm even considering using something more memorable than my real name (even when broken up into groups of 3 letters). Also have considered a webcomic. Still a bit scatterbrained, though. Making your own direction is tough. So much advice saying DO THIS DO THAT DO ALL THE THINGS ALL THE TIME
Also I've got this on my shelf: http://www.graphicartistsguild.org/handbook/ It's a long read, and it's one of many books on my shelf I'm trudging through slowly.
As for you, when I first heard of you I was like "What is this art decade monthly stuff? sounds respectable and legit - oh, it's porn. ohhhh. >:3" Just wait until I'm financially independent. #loser
e.g your site and your comics.
I think that you've managed to get a fairly streamlined process which allows you to knock out a lot of consistent, if soulless products, which is ideal for what you are advocating (esp. comics), but making comics is different to making illustrations, character portraits etc and I don't think it suits many people at all.
Not as many as doing commissions though. I think you've found something that works for you, but I think there is a limited amount of space for people plying a similar trade. Furry is mostly a hobby/subculture and commissions suit that better, I think, than comics and portfolios.
>why is it that when i make a comic it is soulless? because i ask people to pay for it?
No.
Blacksaad has variety of creatures, body-types, expressions and emotions, backgrounds, poses and 'props'. Even the brush strokes that applied the masking fluid for speech bubble arrows are expressive and contribute to effect.
Reading that comic you made, the luck of fools, what leaps out at me is manequin like bodies (including the penises) with a limited range of expressions and poses mouths that float on faces, pages without backgrounds with the occasional tease of a somewhat interesting looking cityscape and crowd, but low on detail, that is the sort of thing that makes it seem a bit soulless to me.
I respect the fact that you've produced it in quantity though, since it's a hard thing to produce 100s of pages a comic, let alone make people pay you to do it.
I do agree with many people that have posted here with the fact that all of us have our fursona and characters that we want to bring to life. And we commission other people to do it. I believe the furry world has grown way more than any of us thought it would several years ago and the furry market can be as "serious" as any other market out there. All artdecade pointed out is that most furry artists do commissions and usually take big batches of "quick" commissions for relatively low price. Like 10 bucks a sketch. That is pretty much equivalent to a graphic designer to takes 10 logos to do, 10 bucks each and you have the same result:
a) he either puts in too much effort in each of them for 10 bucks and its simply not worth it or
b) he dishes them out and they look like crap
When its a) you just don't make a lot of/enough money from commissions.
When it's b) you have X number of artists putting up crap. Everyone things theyre happy, but theyre not :P
But apparently the current "consumers" are happy with that because its cheap. Anything above that price is "too expensive" to have their own CUSTOM idea/character drawn. As much as i recall in the real world if you want something done custom you have to pay for it, and pay a lot for it to be done properly.
When it comes to AD's comics being souless, i strongly have to disagree on this one. Blacksab is indeed a beautiful comic, and so are artdecade's. What you're talking about isn't soul, its detail and rendering. From your reply i got the impression that youd prefer something with more detail, as that indicated more effort is being put in. This is a matter of taste, and taste is not open for discussion. Just the same i prefer something simple and clean. And i can assure you that comics like Garfield, simplified in visual sense, has way more soul than any Marvel, or Todd McFarlane's "put a lot of effort" comic. You just prefer one more than the other and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that.
Also those "high quality" comics have several artists working on it, which makes thing hell of a lot easier. AD is just one guy.
Also you made it seem like you belittle all those people who pay for something that you wouldn't.
>taste is not open for discussion.
'Taste' has been, throughout human history, a matter of discussion to every degree and at every level and it has had profound affects on, for example, architecture and landscape: the very fabric of our everyday existence, esp. if you live in a city. The idea that taste is not open for discussion has profound implications and is definitely not a benign idea, as well as being impossible in practice. I urge you to reconsider your opinion.
>What you're talking about isn't soul, its detail and rendering
Detail and rendering alone do not make something interesting to me. Technical drawings of catalytic converters, while they can be detailed and well rendered, do not interest me very much. What I like is variety and expressive qualities. Variety doesn't automatically mean detail. Expressive qualities is not easy to define, but I mentioned the masking fluid brush-strokes. Digital is a very consistent medium and has qualities of its own and is especially suitable for many commercial purposes, but it isn't always expressive. Textures can certainly create interesting effects, though one has to beware of letting the programs control your process and work-flow: The computer is a only a tool.
Re Garfield and Superhero comics, I wouldn't consider either of them to have much 'soul' myself. I think I would consider many newspaper strips like Garfield to be the very incarnation of soulless dross. :<
i appreciate you not holding your preference against me, like so many do! there's no thing that will please everyone, some people forget that, and blame the artist for it.
Something which comes to my mind, I have studied 19th/20th century lettering art and calligraphy a bit. Photo-engraving was the usual method by the late 19th century for reproducing adverts etc, and that demanded a dense black Indian ink. Iron gall inks might produce superior artistic results but they were too light and delicate to photo-engrave. Half-tones could reproduce them, but half-tones were much more expensive to the extent that magazines had to increase their cover price for issues with many half-tone plates.
Commercial work demanded a certain result in a certain amount of time. Personal work, you could spend weeks blending inks and experimenting with the best materials to produce uncompromising perfection.
If you wanted to do lettering art for a living, except for rare high-paying jobs, knowing when, where and how to compromise (e.g touching up letters with white-out rather than redoing till perfect) was an important skill.
I think that 'Luck of Fools' within the factors relevant to its production and esp. compared to other web-comics is well done. I also noted the name of Otho: one of the 4 emperors of year of the 4 emperors fame and that's a cut above the lazy pop-culture references I've come to expect from most web-comics.
Not all artists have enough fans with disposable incomes to manage that and so commissions may be the better route.
I think that instead of urging artists to drop commissions you should be urging them to charge at least minimum wage, stop doing $10 commissions and do $x p/h commissions [digital artists could even do these live via streaming so their commissioners see that it does take so many hours to do.]
that said, of course there's going to be folk who will always be willing to take commissions! i'm saying it shouldn't be the default option for furry creators.
Oddly enough, I am a small fry when it comes to all the other furry musicians out there. The biggest reason is mostly due to the fact that I can't spin of but perhaps 2-3 songs in a months time. That is also in part to the fact I am a "Traditional" Musician and not a "Digital" Musician. In other words I actually play the instruments and record it instead of relying on something like FL Studio (I really hate that program)...
So you can get a picture that I am really a nobody and yet a few weeks ago I was trying to recall one of my user names to an art website and googled in my name Red Reynart and was shocked to see that alot of my music has been pirated and is posted to a pirate site.
Who was to think that I would ever be pirated, really a nobody.. I am sorta hurt and sorta honored for the fact they someone would like my music so much to redistribute it freely though I am mostly hurt because then I don't get really any reconition and if someone else did in fact like it my fan base isn't growing any and it isn't like I am any closer to turing a hobby into a carrier..
I never seen anyone ask for a musical commision before, it isn't like drawing a sketch and then adding in characters, inking and coloring. You have instruments playing and for a set time in harmony how can you really put a price on that?
As for a portfolio. Well a music CD is something. I have tried that before though it never sold, I only managed to sell 3 cd's and I based my price for them off of the Itunes website .99 a song. 12 songs on a cd is equal to $12 ...Seems fair?
Even though that when something is published you immediantly hold all rights. I still use the ECO as an extra measure agaist potential theives.. That is the Electronic CopyRight Offices. eco.gov
But yeah I shure can use some luck right about now lol..
Have you ever tried to sell music before? Seems you have some experience by the way you put your comment.
To me Music is sorta a hobby though I want to try and make that into a career. Sad thing is I really don't know where to start.. As you stated earlier it is pretty tough..
I just keep doing what I love, sometimes I get a few looks. Most of the time I don't..
Seriouly how did you get off the ground and get to that point that you decided to sell your works?
I do however, want to continue publishing children's books. I've made far more money there than I have ever made with taking commissions. Commissions are a nice thing to do on the side- it's extra cash. My income is going to come from my teaching job when I get out of school- so little stuff on the side here and there is handy.
What do you do if that's the only way people will buy your art?
but lots of artists would rather do their own stories or draw what they want to draw. those artists are under the thumb of a commission based micro economy that is stifling their creativity!
I understand where youre coming from, and i quit my job about a month ago so i can be a independent artist and what you said, everything, is true and makes sense.
Although I have to agree with some people here and say that Eastern and Western world have totally different opinion on what would they spend their money on. I've seen that in MMORPGs as ive played both korean/japanese MMORPGs, and american MMOs, and read a few articles about what americans spend their money on, and what the japanese spend their money on. Western world would pay on a digital item only if it provides stats that they can boost their character with, while the Eastern players value their items in how "fun" they are. A japanese player would buy a 10 dollar silly hat shaped like a squid because its cute, while the american wont even think about buying it unless it provides +5 strength for his character. Where im going with this, is that our consumers are all about "ME ME ME", and not "many" would give us their money for random drawings of "not them", especially when there is so much free smut on FA already, and that is completely our fault. It doesn't have to be this way.
Over the past 5 years our fandom grew, but the general quality of our art has plummeted to 10 bucks doodles of giant penises and 6 tits covered in a vast river of hyper muscle, fat, and milky seed. That is all i see now, and people BUY IT. Because they need things on steroids. Bigger, better, faster. And that is sad. Most of our really good artists left the fandom, and not just because of the money, it's also because of the spirit of the fandom that has developed over the years. If not left, then just lurk and not post their latest work because they don't see what once was here: respect, support and the will to improve in technical and conceptual sense.
I don't think that our fandom is any different than any other market out there. Artists are these celebrities, and they do their stuff and make fabulous works. Make a portfolio > sell it. Just like Gaga would sell her albums and people can choose to buy it or not.
All this talk about this being a hobby? Sure. Some people do it. But some artists are on a level where i would buy their sketches, their quality works, notes... because theyre really good at what they do. This isnt me paying 10 bucks to jerk off to new 5 furry pics, this is a whole new level of admiration and respect for the artist. Its not charity, its not a donation per se; im paying it because its fun, its beautiful and i want it to be in my possession.
As for myself, i don't think comics are something i can communicate with. But i will try to do something of my own. It won't appeal to a lot of people, but it is something that i like, and it's on paper.
Commissions are also something that most of the time, i don't enjoy doing for many reasons, also depending on who asks me. Lately i have so many piled up that i haven't been able to do something of my own and i can tell you this: people always enjoy more of my own personal works, than anything ive drawn as a commission. That may seem arrogant from my end, but i just put way more effort, and way more emotion into my pieces.
Out of my nearly 7k watchers i believe there are 100 of them who actually like my own work. For 2 years now i have been nothing but angry and feeling disgust for this fandom, as a lot of people, including myself, have posted trash. Ive lost lots of friends, they arent around anymore for their own personal reasons, and the ones who stayed, are in front of the exit.
I fully support this journal, and i hope that through our efforts, as a community, we will see a brighter day.
More than most artists, I think you could successfully launch a portfolio style subscription site. You lament that maybe only 100 folks (incl. me) watch you for your art, well that's a decent start for a subscription base. Create what you want for it, your passion will come back, and people will see it and be drawn to it.
and if you can't think of a great story, hook up with a writer!!! split profits!!
I'd say that only POPULAR artists (at least 7000 watchers) should do Comics, because UNPOPULAR furry artist don't have the visibility to actually advertise they're product in this large fandom, and making commishion, they can try to be more visible.
So the more knows you, the more would buy your stuff online (it's the only option for people who live outside the US) or at cons.
Also, you and AD are among the best in comics, but there are plenty of good furry artist who knows nothing about comics, maybe commishion is a good way to learn cash for them wile practicing for comics.
P.S: sorry for the poor english
But I was just talking about making comics in general. I've been in the fandom proper for I want to say six years? I've been drawing nonstop ever since. I'd like to think that me sticking with it is why I got where I am today not because I started out popular. It's hard work. <XD Commissions and comics are good for practicing your craft. however, you will get better at doing comics by doing comics. Doing a commission unless you are commissioned to write stories(create comics from scratch) as a commission, drawing pin ups really isn't going to help you learn how to lay out sequential art.
I gotta say I'm partial to comics, and if that makes more money for artists than doing commissions? Two wins!
Keep workin' it. To me, most times it's more about how cool a person is as opposed to how popular/impressive their work is, but your work IS impressive, so that good attitude equates to me subscribing again. I miss LoF anyway, and homosexuality in college.
i want to say that this article was meant for the whole fandom. my site and i are doing just fine :3
Disagreed with selling comics and digital artbooks, because as me, a lot of non-popular furry artists are not very known in the fandom for practically live with what we do. People with money will have preferences to the most popular artists than newbies...And furries with money are furries with tough references and estrict, unfair demands. It sucks.
Also we have the PayPal vs. Alertpay factor, that makes commissionists choose PayPal beacuse "Alertpay is not known and that person is afraid of the new things" or "Commissionist use PayPal because is the custom thing" and other else.
Those who believe the first furry artists generation made a good path for the new artists like me, is a totally wrong fact.
There were my cents.
However, I don't personally believe the fandom should be mostly about money or even supporting artists with money. I mean, as a person who draws A LOT for free, I just get a kick out of drawing rather than money.
Now, is money a good motivator to do "quality work"? Sure.
Should it be? I don't think so. Should popularity be? No. I think someone who actually gives a damn about art would improve themselves or do quality job on the art just because they want to, not because they know someone else is lining their pockets.
...
I live in a country where the money i could make from doing furry art can help me greatly and even pay my bills. So i am still trying to find a system that will allow me to do so. What AD says in his journal is all true, and it IS possible.
I am currently swamped with commissions, also cheap ones. The effort and time i put in them are usually way much more than what i charge them, especially comparing to some artists that charge more. It wears me out and my watchers dont really enjoy the work i put up as much as they would when i put up a personal piece which is the main reason they watch me. Most of people watch someone because of art pieces the artist drew. What i am trying to say is, the money AD, or i, or any other artist out there, who could have the support of their watchers, in form of money, to provide financial security, i wont have 20 commission queues that when i finish, they arent 100% of what they could be. Instead in a month i could have lets say 5 full high quality paintings, 10 sketches "for sale" every month for 10 bucks. If 100 out of those 10000 watchers bought for just 10 bucks, id be more than happy to provide the best paintings i can do. 10 bucks isnt enough. I played free to play MMORPGs where people would spend hundreds of dollars each just to have some rare digital item for their character. 50 bucks for a few pixels in a game. I dont see how 10 bucks for high quality drawings from one of your fav artist can possibly damage or feel like a ripoff to anyone.
Then again, I always hated doing art as a job or even doing classes, because that made the fun disappear.
I understand that AD knows that he can make more money from just allowing subscriptions for his website, which allows him to pay the bills and do his best in terms of art, and that's fine.
However, I don't think people should provide the, in your example, "best paintings [they] can do", just because they're getting paid. You should do your best because it's fun or interesting.
----
Then again, I say this because art would be the last thing I ever rely on as a revenue stream. That'd be a terrible idea.
SUPER SUPPORT
I definitely see where you're coming from economically, however, especially since you seem to try to maintain a living with your stuff.
A comic would be a smashing idea but personally, submitting pieces to paysites such as yours would work best; though I hardly know if I'm up to muster for that sort of thing.
Also, I'm rather amused at how polarized a lot of the comments seem to be on the distinction between "piracy" and "stealing". People seem to think that there's some big gap between gaining physical possession of something and digital possession of something; either way, you get something neat without having to pay for it. Sounds pretty close to me.
You actually made me realize some great stuff.
I do believe that once I learn how to color better digitally I'll do some requests and art-trades with no charge for a while...and after I get the hang of it I'll charge little for special things like wallpapers, series of pictures or small comic strips.
AND LATER, when I get way more experience, I'm gonna make some digital comics and portfolios...that would take over a year or maybe more since I still have a long way to go, but it's still a good start :P
But before that I need to get clients and fans...which is not gonna happen for a bit longer XD
I didn't know you were having such a hard time with that.
Is it hard to maintain a website?
And my ex requested me to draw something as well...
I just want to color at least decently to be able to do art trades.
Webcomic?
Oh god...well uhh...we are going to learn how to do webpages next semester I believe...but is it difficult to maintain a webpage?
I do have 3 small comics that I have thought up and a long term one like your LOF, which I'm still brainstorming.
i did dome down hard on commissions though, i don't think they are totally nonviable but i think artists need to stop thinking of them as a the default option, and consumers need to be more open to what the artists want to produce :)
There's also the distinct possibility that they liked your work and want to share it with other people because that's what people naturally want to do: share media and create a shared experience between themselves and other people. It's what builds culture. It's not really malicious, it's just what brings people a little bit closer to each other.
(Or they're just dicks who want to pirate your stuff out of spite. Could be worse: they could be paying no attention to your work.)
ARTISTS stop taking commissions and start making comics, CONSUMERS commissions aren't the best way to support artists, buy more comics and sign up to more sites and buy more folios!!
It's not that simple and/or black-and-white. There are currently four major furry paysites out there: SexyFur, its sibling site TailHeat, FurAfterDark, and ClubStripes. Now that's four sites, each with its own pricing range, types of content, stable of artists, and target audience. The choice as to which one you want to sign up to is dependent mainly on those factors.
Now imagine that there are twice that many. The decision doesn't get any easier when more choices are available; in fact, it can often be harder to decide. That specific decision is only part of the problem: people have bills to pay, and when working with a limited budget (or no budget at all), it can often come down to either picking just one artist/site to support or picking no site at all.
Commissions are popular not just because they're often cheaper than a paysite subscription, but because they're exchanging their money for something just as important that they likely don't have: an artist's skill.
A point that I have tried to make with other people when I've discussed this sort of thing with other people is that there is no "golden bullet" -- that is, there is no one specific train of thought or business model that is guaranteed to work for everyone. Some artists might make a comfortable living doing paysite work, while others might just be suppplementing their existing income by doing commissions. Saying "start making more comics or work for paysites" to an artist is insulting, because that might not work for them; they might have their own ideas about how they want to make money or what they want to draw, and someone coming up to them and telling them that they know better than them is a slap in their face.
I don't know any better than you do, but at least I've got the balls to stand up and say so. I don't have any "easy" solutions, but neither do you, and pretending that a single way of thinking -- on both artists and consumers' sides -- is going to solve any problems or change any minds is shortsighted.
Supporting artists is a good thing, yes. But there are so many different factors as to why piracy happens and what drives people to support artists that simply saying "I have a solution, and it's (x)" is akin to going into the Middle East and saying the same thing to every country in that region: it's not going to help matters much, and it might just make things worse.
i don't disagree with your points though! though i do not accept any kind of apologetic attitude toward piracy, i understand that people want to share, fans want to see work, etc. those people just aren't thinking about how they're harming others. it's easier to pretend like they aren't. the bottom line is that it IS harmful to small businesses, and people need to hear that.
Piracy can affect a business model in different ways, not the least of which is actually getting people interested enough in your product to actually want to buy it/support you. (Several studies has shown that music pirates are often more likely to buy music.) ClubStripes allows a little piracy here and there because they see it as a form of free advertising; it's worked, too -- I've personally seen people admit to buying a subscription to the site after seeing what they had to offer via piracy (the person who normally does the uploads for my site's monthly ClubStripes threads being one of those people).
It's not that piracy is the problem, it's more that the reaction to it that tends to create bigger problems. (Just ask EA about the Spore debacle or Jeremy Bernal about how people consider him to be an asshole.) Admitting that piracy exists and can't really be stopped through conventional means is a good first step -- the next step is to figure out exactly how to use piracy to your advantage.
Attention is a commodity in this day and age, and knowing how to draw attention to your site in the right ways -- as well as leveraging the attention paid to you through unconventional or, dare I say it, unauthorized channels -- can be just as important as knowing how to draw a great image. When you have someone's attention, you can use that focus to sell them on your product (in this case, your art).
Part of the reason people consider Bernal an asshole is that he basically wants to keep SexyFur and TailHeat images in their walled garden, never to escape into the public eye; to that end, he has created an image for himself as a sue-happy DMCA-tossing asshole who destroys imageboards. His reaction to piracy was to become heavyhanded about it, and now he's considered to be one of the furry community's top "villains" because he projects an image of treating even a single instance of piracy as something that needs to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
ClubStripes, on the other hand, has been open about their stance on piracy -- siterips are pretty much the only thing they're firmly against -- and have even interacted with "pirates" in a friendly manner. This has led to, as I pointed out before, instances where pirates turned into subscribers; ClubStripes leveraged the attention paid to their content into a favorable outcome. (They also pay attention to complaints from the pirates; a series of gNAW images that had nigh-unreadable text at the beginning of the series saw a marked improvement in readability after some TGFB posters, including myself, complained about it.)
The best way to think of pirates is to consider them "underserved customers" ponder what can you do to convert a pirate into a paying customer. An example question: is it a hassle to purchase your product? Consumers like convenience, and if it's easier to get your product for free on a pirate site than it is to get it on your site for a small fee, then the pirate site might win out in the end.
Piracy can be both free advertising and a form of market research. Use that knowledge to your advantage to fix any problems in your business model or find new avenues of gaining a potential consumer's attention, and you're going to be better off than if you react to a little piracy with a fuckton of legal threats.
and it doesn't matter how you see piracy, it is what it is and all the rationalizing in the world isn't changing what it is or what it does to small business. you are contributing to the death of small businesses by pirating.
Your business is not going to die because of piracy, but by the way you face and act about it.
Whether it is a big corporation or small personal business,piracy hurts them to some extent,It is stealing.
I agree that the small personal business suffer greatly/more directly from pirating.
Some people just don't realize how they're stealing an artist's meal right in front of their face by pirating.
I love your thoughts about making portfolios.
Commissions are no way to make a living when you're a furry artist.
This is only just my view of the point,but many furry artists are hobbyists,and many of them have similar styles and usually more or less on the same level,
except for few outstanding artists. In result,as in taking commissions,furry artists find their competitiveness in cheap prices.
Consequently,people expect to pay cheaper and cheaper prices,and because the lowered price is simply just not worth all the labor,quality isn't very good.
I can't say that I'm not one of them.
Offering commissions at a situation like this isn't a very good idea,and I've been keep thinking whether I should keep offering commissions for pocket money,
eventhough I'm just a hobby artist and don't mean to make a living by art.
Portfolios are good solution to this,I agree. <3
Artist can produce quality works,and fans can support their favorite artists at the low prices.
People who want to get personalized work should expect to pay the appropriate prices..
Comic is also a great idea as well,though It might not be a way for everyone. Some artists who are great at illustrating might simply be bad at storytelling,heh. ;)
Piracy is not stealing, it is copyright infringement.
Stealing implies that when I take something, I am the only one in possession of it. If I steal a candy bar from a dollar store, then the store no longer has it.
Piracy does not do that. When I pirate an MP3 off of SoulSeek, the copyright holder still has possession of the master recording of that song and the person I downloaded the MP3 from still has their MP3. I simply have another copy of that MP3.
Piracy isn't theft. It's copyright infringement, which is also illegal, but it is not theft; treating the two terms as the same thing is doing a disservice to any discussion on the subject by stacking the deck in favor of the anti-piracy/anti-sharing side.
as we all do, i walk many different circles on the internet, and i've seen how piracy destroys small companies (especially gaming companies) and it is fucked up. don't pretend like pirates don't have a hand in destroying people's lives, because it does, and more frequently than people like to tell themselves.
Before you mention again that piracy destroys small companies and such, I should note a little reality of my own for you: just because you create content does not mean that you are entitled to success. If you want success, you have to go out and make it happen. If that means tapping into "pirates" to help you make it happen, then that should be a possibility that remains on the table instead of being considered and trashed in the span of a second.
Hell, you might want to think about being happy when you see/hear of your work being pirated -- it means there's some interest in it.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20.....4/21562713776/
on a related topic, i want to point out that sharing among friends should not be compared with piracy, they are vastly different things, it is a fallacious comparison. sharing with your friends is fucking awesome. posting something on a public board for every dickwad on the internet is not sharing, THAT is piracy. that is what makes people mad.
just getting this out there, as i see the comparison made often and it's such bullshit i can barely stand it.
I'm not seriously trying to make that comparison, though. But in reality, most people who share stuff on imageboards and whatnot probably do see it that way -- they wanted to show other people something awesome, and they posted it for those people to see.
I'm not saying it's right, or that it's is a justification for piracy. All the same, it should be considered when thinking about the reasons people share stuff on sites like mine -- instead of, y'know, just out-and-out believing people are trying to rip you off and be complete bastards about it without any evidence to support the belief. *coughbernalcough*
mm..The things I wrote below,is rather controversial,and I mean no offense. You can ignore it if you want.
However...'I simply have another copy of that MP3.'?
Yes,MP3 file will not disappear even if you shared it with thousands of other people,because It is not a physical item.
The thing disappears is,the profit the copyright holder might have got if you haven't shared your files.
If that means tapping into "pirates" to help you make it happen, then that should be a possibility that remains on the table instead of being considered and trashed in the span of a second.
Maybe I'm getting things wrong here,but it kind of sounds wrong.
It's like,'hey,I'll share your musics with everyone else,so you get some attention from people.You will not get your money right now,but you might get lots of fans later. You will have some money then!'
Well,would you go to a new bakery and take all the breads out,saying that you'll share them with people,so people will start to recognize the bakery?
You probably wouldn't do that,but you'll share your mp3 and such because they won't disappear even after you shared them?
Whether artist should 'invest' in getting their name known by sharing his works for free or not,is their decision.
The thing disappears is,the profit the copyright holder might have got if you haven't shared your files.
Except that profit isn't there for me to steal. I can't steal what doesn't exist, after all. And the copyright holder isn't guaranteed my money just because they made some form of content; the mere creation of a work does not guarantee its creator any form of monetary gain.
You will not get your money right now,but you might get lots of fans later. You will have some money then!
That's one way of looking at it, I suppose. But piracy can increase the fanbase for a creator, especially if they don't lash out at their fans (and potential fans) for daring to share their work -- and with a larger audience comes more opportunities for success.
"An artist's enemy is obscurity, not piracy." ~ Cory Doctrow
Whether artist should 'invest' in getting their name known by sharing his works for free or not,is their decision.
That would be ideal, sure, but in this day and age, that decision is often out of content creators' hands. Piracy is inevitable; the only thing that's not for sure when it comes to piracy is a content creator's reaction to it.
mm,yes,and that's why I used 'might' in my sentence.
Still,It doesn't mean that the creation is free to share around without the permission from the creator,even profit is not guaranteed.
Otherwise,everything is free,isn't it? Nothing is guaranteed any monetary gain before it is actually sold.
But piracy can increase the fanbase for a creator, especially if they don't lash out at their fans (and potential fans) for daring to share their work -- and with a larger audience comes more opportunities for success.
I think,in the first place,piracy happens mostly because people don't want to pay for the creation.
Large fanbase,that's good,but are they willing to support the creator? I'm not sure,that sounds like an ideal to me.
Otherwise,everything is free,isn't it? Nothing is guaranteed any monetary gain before it is actually sold.
The created work may not be offered for free, but once the work reaches the Internet at large, that doesn't matter.
My point is that monetary gain/success isn't guaranteed -- an artist has to work to make that success happen, and that means doing more than just making a creative work, putting it up somewhere for sale, and praying for sales to start rolling in.
I think,in the first place,piracy happens mostly because people don't want to pay for the creation.
There's numerous reasons for piracy. Some people do it out of spite, some people do it because they can't get the content through legal channels, and some people do it as a form of "try before you buy" (they pirate the content first, then pay for it later to support the content's creators). Never assume that everyone who pirates content does it out of spite or hatred for content creators or that they don't want to support the content creators.
Large fanbase,that's good,but are they willing to support the creator? I'm not sure,that sounds like an ideal to me.
The whole point of building up a large fanbase is to have more people willing to support you. If you're open and friendly with your entire fanbase -- even the fans that don't necessarily support you with money now -- then you stand a better chance of converting more people into your fans (and supporters).
Once the work is pirated,it's prettty much impossible to stop the piracy,but still,it does matter.
My point is that monetary gain/success isn't guaranteed -- an artist has to work to make that success happen
I fully agree on that.
Never assume that everyone who pirates content does it out of spite or hatred for content creators or that they don't want to support the content creators.
I don't see all pirates to have malicious intention. Like your example,people who cannot get the wanted content legally. I understand that they mean no harm.
They would have been normal consumers if the content was legal in their state,country,etc.
As for 'try before you buy',there are preview images(pages),demo version,and so on.
If the creator did not provide such things...well,It's their decision,and it should be respected as a rightful owner of the content.
Whether the consumers believe the content should be pirated for the creator's good or not,It's not something they should decide.
In short,I agree with 'free sharing',not 'pirating'.
The whole point of building up a large fanbase is to have more people willing to support you. If you're open and friendly with your entire fanbase -- even the fans that don't necessarily support you with money now -- then you stand a better chance of converting more people into your fans (and supporters).
In optimistic view,I could say that I agree.
Sharing the content for free can result in many people having access to the content,and the creator having large fanbase and perhaps a financial success.
What I'm concerned about is,I know I'm repeating my words again,but would that really work that way?
Those who support the creator with money,will they be sufficient enough that creator can keep making quality contents?
Maybe I'm being pessimistic here,but my anwser is no,I doubt that.
If a content creator works hard towards making it convenient for people to support them, consistently produces quality content, and projects a good image of themselves even towards fans who pirate their work, then it could very well work.
But the key word there is "work". An artist can't just sit on their ass after they put a work up for sale; they have to get their name out there in the public eye, and they're not going to be able to do that if they just put it up and pray for customers.
In this day and age, a content creator has to be more than just that if they expect to become a successful content creator.
What will support them while they're in the process of establishing the fanbase?
For example,Indie game makers are quick to go out of business in that process.
Percentage of finacially supporting fans are not just enough for them to 'consistently' producing the quality game.
Yes,they might be successful than ever before once they have established the fanbase,but I'm saying that they will have very hard time or even fade away in the process.
It's not just about putting an effort. How much the creator wants to produce quality contents for their fans,it can't be done without enough financial support.
But the key word there is "work". An artist can't just sit on their ass after they put a work up for sale; they have to get their name out there in the public eye, and they're not going to be able to do that if they just put it up and pray for customers.
Again,I agree on this. Every job requires hard working like that. Art is not an exception.
Yes,they might be successful than ever before once they have established the fanbase,but I'm saying that they will have very hard time or even fade away in the process.
It's not just about putting an effort. How much the creator wants to produce quality contents for their fans,it can't be done without enough financial support.
That's a question that every content creator has to ask themselves. Just like there's no "golden bullet" when it comes to business models for selling your content, there's no "golden bullet" for finding a way to support yourself while trying to sell your content.
That's why I took issue with artdecade saying "just draw comics, screw commissions!" -- commissions are one way that an artist can support themselves as they work out what they want to do going forward. (They can also help build up a fanbase, which is a nice side bonus.)
You're right about this,but what I was trying to say was that piracy can do some damage to those growing businesses.
I agree that 'piracy' could help as a form of advertisement. a double edged sword.
That's why I took issue with artdecade saying "just draw comics, screw commissions!" -- commissions are one way that an artist can support themselves as they work out what they want to do going forward. (They can also help build up a fanbase, which is a nice side bonus.)
mm,I thought AD said that to give a note to those who see commissions as a major or even only source of their income.
Not many artists in furry community do portfolios and comics,which are also a one way for an artist to support themselves,and I think AD just wanted to point that out.
Myself I've always been a big fan of buying art that is already done and I LOVE Portfolios as well. I do some commissioning but more often I trade cookies for art. :)
It does seem at conventions the most successful dealers are those that have a variety of art, do some commissions, and some items to sell (Be it art portfolios or even little trinkets). Impromptu buys are popular there. :)
A few things regarding both the journal itself and the comments following, and I couldn't keep myself from posting my own thoughts...
1) Low commission prices
- I read a few comments about this. I think Tao states it best (if a little indirectly) in this sentence; "the general quality of our art has plummeted to 10 bucks doodles of giant penises and 6 tits covered in a vast river of hyper muscle, fat, and milky seed." Now, although this is a specific example where lack of quality to a viewer is comparable to, distilled down to a single phrase, a distinct lack of realism, the overall idea is spot on - a lot the art has been reduced to that one thing people want - porn - at the cost of sacrificing much else. This does not mean that images where the primary purpose is just to be porn can't be quality - to insist otherwise would strike me as rejecting it based on the rather arbitrary insistence that sexuality is inherently shameful or distasteful - but it's undeniable to anyone with their filters off that visions of what can be perceived as rather grotesque exaggerations of sexual anatomy and function run pretty rampant here.
- That said, it's not that commissioners who can really like art as art would never be willing to pay for quality if they were looking for it, nor is it entirely that some artists keep prices down for a quick buck, because it's just a hobby, or any other personal motivations or lack thereof - I think it's that a lot of commissioners just aren't looking for anything exceeding a an almost literally no-brainer fantasy fap. And no-brainers can be generated pretty cheaply, an aspect of a product which often holds incredible and disproportionate sway. (How many people here have purchased something that was a "great deal" that they did not need?)
2) Piracy
- At the time of writing this post, the most surprising, and, in my opinion, thoughtless lines on the subject equates "piracy" to "sharing." That perception overlooks an important detail; when you share something, you're sharing something you yourself own or have the rights to. You share the story you wrote with a friend, perhaps for an opinion. You share your food you purchased or made, perhaps as a good host. But when you distribute something you have no genuine claim over, then you're pirating.
- Regarding paysites: Chances are the terms of service include a statement akin to "the customer is purchasing rights to view the material within," not rights to the material itself. I'm only reasonably sure that the sites mentioned here have similar statements in their ToSs, but, if they do, and if agreeing to something and then breaking your word doesn't bother you, well, I'm in no position to stop you, but I probably wouldn't trust you much, either. *shrug*
3) Portfolios and comics versus commissions as a business model
- It seems, as someone else posted already, a tad presumptuous to insist that a business model that has worked for one person (which could easily fail for others. The concept of "great artist, poor writer" has been mentioned at least twice - an example of how the talents of individuals tend to vary quite a bit) is "the best" or that a member of community supports his favored artists "best" by purchasing one type of product or service. A call for support should be personal, and, as such, when it comes to business, should come through a means the customer wants to support. Otherwise, who's going to spend the money? On top of that, if a seller starts specializing in wares that an existing customer doesn't support, how does that seller expect to retain that support?
- On the plus side, even those who disagree with the specifics can take a step back and see that the journal also provides some insight on how certain (types of) considerations can make a business model a successful one. It even passively encourages sitting down and working out the math, which I always support. <3
- On a more personal note, I'm a commissioner who is both a musician and, though not an "artist," able to draw to some very limited extent, but I don't have a shred of creativity (a quick look at my tiny gallery will provide evidence for that) for anything other than problem-solving in mathematics. @AD, I know you revised your tl;dr further down in the comments, and I too would also encourage just about anyone to branch out and try something they might not have otherwise tried without a little push, but, for someone like me, the existence of commission-able artists whose styles I love is nothing short of a godsend, budget allowing. I'd never have an even halfway decent drawing of my (admittedly generic) character otherwise. (But I may have reconsidered commissioning some folks had I known the stress that it puts them through. To the guys who posted specifically that commissions caused them anxiety, I apologize for adding to your stress. Anxiety sucks.)
I'm all for an artist wanting to get paid for their work, but in the vast majority of cases art folios are not worth the money they cost, nor are the sites. I had a sub scruption to HB, but it wasnt worth t the money for a few weekly updates .
The fact of the matter is that there is no reason someone should be trying to survive off of selling furry porn. Sell porn on the side, and get a job. Hell flip burgers if you got too,.
Also, I make 1200 a.month, and I'm not hurting paying rent bills and working on my sports car, so if someone is making two stacks a month and cant make ends meet, then they are wasting their money and should just learn to live cheaper.
The journal has much more to say than just "buy my stuff" if you bothered to actually consider it. And even if it did, he is entitled to advertise his work -- how else would people know about it? I may not fully agree with what he is saying here, but I feel that it is still worth my respect and consideration.
anyway, my site and i are doing fine, i'm talking about the whole fandom here, not me! :)
Speaking of which, since most furry pay sites are pornographic, they marginalize the number of beautiful clean art being distributed. We get less wonderful pictures like this, this or this, and more cum shots and "O" faces. This is not to say that pornography cannot make compelling art; my point is only that pay sites narrow the scope of "marketable" art.
I respect any artist's decision to open a paysite and cater almost exclusively to that audience. It is not my place to question any artist's decision to make some real money of off his craft. However, I still stand by my opinion: too many paid portfolio sites diminish the sense of community and impersonalize the relationship between the artist and his audience.
The pros being that yes, portfolios and comics are GREAT and very entertaining. I personally love Nexus's work because he's able to write out a story and have it be something fun to read, and for some, something to spank it to. But never the less, you can read it, laugh, but then come back again months later and still get the same effect.
Supporting artists is also a great thing. I use to be a member of your site when it first started off, it was awesome because you had more average build type characters that also felt more (or less) real to see. And even your comics were entertaining to read. I remember the one where it seemed like a rape but then was actually a porno which made it awesomely historical. And because of this, not seeing overly gay characters, twinks, super buff dudes, and especially the extra inches on a dick, it seemed right. I had no problem supporting the site. And that's where I can understand about the pros with your journal without being long winded. And for the record, love the work you do, always have, I honestly just stepped back from the net and after figuring out I hadn't been on your site for 3 months but was still paying for it, I figured it was time to stop. But to boot, can honestly say I've never went looking for the "back door" to see what's been posted since then and never will. I'll probably be back on the pay site again in a bit though, I'm sure you have done more entertaining comic lines.
The cons however, first off, not doing commissions. Being a crack job of an artist myself, I can honestly say there have been times where I'm doing the typical characters I've been known to do, sigh, then lay my head down from feeling like it's a "same shit, different day" kind of thing. So when people are interested in a commission, I actually look forward to the challenge of doing something either right up my alley way, or something completely different. And as an artist, begin able to do something different is actually a fun experience for both parties: the commissioner gets work from someone they chose to commit a retaining price to; the artist gets to do something that they don't have to come up with the idea or the character. All the artist has to do is draw it. Of course sometimes it doesn't always go as easy as planned and YES there will ALWAYS be that person who wants a million changes to their picture. But that's why there are limits and what not. After the project is finished, the artist continues to go back to doing whatever while the commissioner does whatever they plan to do with the original piece or data file (depending on who your artist is).
Basically, trying something different and possibly new without to much of a draw back.
YES, PEOPLE SHOULD NOT RIP OFF THEIR BUYERS. Totally agree with you there. I've seen lots of people on this and other sites who seem like they have never seen a naked body or know how anatomy works, yet charge more then it's worth. Is there a reason, not really. I asked a person why once, the only logic that came from it was "because I'm popular and can get away with it." But that's also with a buyer beware thing too.
Portfolios are under rated sadly. But the true kicker is comics. Those are both good and bad, can't really think about much other then that. I've seen plenty of great comic go unfinished because not enough/no porn or sex, no species of certain character, art wasn't as good as (insert a popular artist name here), and my personal favorite of the story just seem to get so odd that even the creators didn't want to deal with it anymore. Then there's also the infamous "we're working on the next issue still" and it's been a few years since the last part which means it could go either way. Then there is the typical art is good but story is crap, comics. And finally the popular idea that copyrights don't exist in the fandom and someone can some how piggybacking off someone else.
Aside from all those comic issues, the main thing that turns people away from it is originality. I'll start off by saying, and could be wrong about this too, since ASB ended, how many comics, both online and in print, deal about characters in school to early adult life, coming out and being gay, happen? Yes, it's a popular topic because this happens to A LOT of people in the fan base. Of course there's also the cheesy sex comics too, and then the straight up "WTF" comics. And the main reason why I believe all these people come and go is that the writer and artist don't really think about it or choose not to think about it. I won't name the one time only comics, but for those who have read long running comics such as ASB, Executioners, and Circles, the people who came up with it all had a simple idea of telling multiple stories and having their world expand with different characters that would perk the interests of different people. And even with each issue it would have features of some characters, but ended where it can still expand. It feels like the comics that come out now feel more like 'one night stands' because they all have that short fairy tail story, just with no lesson at the end of it. Then even if there is a chance where it seems like it could continue, the script writer/artist release a notice of something completely different which really feels like a let down for a lot of the fans the comic may have brought in. And it's not like the whole deal is that hard either, a really basic thing could be as simple as 1 straight dude living with 4 gay ones and the gays help him get the girl. The whole trial and error process which could eventually lead up to a wedding. But instead comics today would get as far as either the gays raping the straight guy, or the straight guy sees so much gay sex, he goes gay himself. That's what seems to be a running gag with comics that come out.
Long story short, yeah, the comics are nice, but they'd be more fun to support if there was depth to them. Something keep bringing back readers and not ALWAYS giving the reader what they want but yet something simple enough to have them want to come back. I don't personally buy comics anymore because of the soul reason, the script writer/artist just give the viewer what they want, there's no actual story, no real plot, just more random characters that plan on doing some activity that will take up to 20 pages to do the full action, or will take up to 20 pages to lead to the action, then 2 to 3 to complete the action everything has built up to.
You do have great fighting arguments, and agree with most of your opinions, but in order to do some of the things you want supported, the artists and script writers (if they count in the subject matter) need to put forth the effort just as much as the person paying for the product.
As for piracy, eh, being traditional with art, I like originals, so I'd rather have the portfolio CD that has the signature, or the paper copy of a comic over a ZIP folder or however people do it. So, totally agree that people should give credit where it's due, not find someone with a copy and beg till they scan it in or something.
sorry i can't reply to your whole post, it's full of great thoughts, thanks for posting it!!
I signed up to your website way back when it first started and have happily been a member forever. I would have to say that as much as i love the sketxhes and portfolio type stuff you do what has kept me subscribed is the comics. I am an utterwhore for comics. While yeah sure the dicks are cool it is not just them that keeps me coming back.
I know I personally have spent more money on comics and sitr subscriptions, all thongs i know i could find online if i wanted too, than comissions. I think this is because i like to see the 'work' that an artist makes on his/her own.
Anyway i would love to see more comics or liked portfolios (thematically or by character)
The hard truth about the fandom is the disposable income of the fans is not enough to support the number of artists in the fandom.I dont wish for anyone to leave.But if people stop producing more then a small amount because they need to find other paying work ,I understand.
I gotta say I agree so much with ya' on the comic thing. I've never produced anything or sold anything, but I always figured they made more economic sense. Comics and portfolios also have greater potential to convey a great story or feeling that a single lone image cannot reproduce. A series that could be framed can convey the same kinds of stories you see in old master's paintings, just like a comic. However, I personally I feel comics have great value simply because they can convey a story in a more consumable format that isn't full of complicated metaphors...usually!
That said, I'm so trying to get into comics so I can learn more. I mean, I mostly do porn for anatomy practice and fun. Still, I suck at consistency and I'm still learning overall... I also have a terrible time designing panels correctly and tend towards collages more. Oh well. I still don't see myself selling things any time soon. It's a hobby and I have a long ways to go before I can produce something sellable. *nods*
...Now that I look back I didn't say anything useful and just agreed with you while complaining about my work. Gah. Well, I do! Love your work too Art Decade! <3
First off, let me say that I your art SO damn much man, I was a subscriber to the site for a while now, and I'd never pirate your work (or that of any other furry artist).
But, and I truly hate to offer this criticism to you man, the reason I'm not a current subscriber is the fact that I have to wait months for a complete comic story to be told, and even as awesome as your pinups are, they all tend to blend together and become stale week after week. I'd MUCH rather have MORE comics and such and no pinups at all. And THAT can be directly attributed to the fact that I see 20+ pinup art a DAY here on FA (and another 5-10 a day on IB). Pinups have become the cheap commodity, and if they're a significant portion of your weekly content... well... :/
I'm sorry man, I don't want to be an asshole about it, but after being on your site about a year I pretty much figured I'd pay for a month every 3 or 6 months and get the comics and skip the vast majority of single-use art. :/
On the whole tho? I agree with your overall assessment. If there was a LOT more comic-level content on your site, I'd be back subscribing in a heartbeat
(please don't hate me) :(
i hope your luck turns about!
I feel like I've been forced to do my cheap-as-shit sketch commissions because it's the quickest way for me to make ends meet, and even then it's only getting me by for now. Sure it's helping me get better with my anatomy and speed every time I do, but I wish I could do full time comic work or portfolio or website work like you. That and because I have to do those to make a living for now I can't work on finessing anything, really, and making high quality art that I can really be proud of. I'm guilty of falling to the side of doing cheap, quick commissions.
I don't feel like I have the speed or skill to keep up with a site or something, not to mention gaining the interest of people who are willing to pay for something like that. I'm very happy for you that you've been able to do it for so long.
Perhaps after I finish school and can devote more of my time to art I can do something like you to help this sort of movement you want to have going along. Dreamous and I have a lot of ideas for other comics I simply haven't had time to start, so here's hoping to the future!
Also, thanks for posting this journal, it really needs to be said so people can get this.
Corbin mentioned this journal to me last night, and we couldn't help but equate what you said about portfolios and comics, to releasing full albums/EPs instead of creating music for other people. An album is essentially a portfolio of music; A musician makes/releases music that they personally enjoy, fans pay $10 for an hour's worth of heartfelt material, and the musician is supported and continues creating and growing as an artist. Both parties are happy. Same goes for an illustrator or comic artist/writer: $10 gets the consumer ten/twenty pages of work to enjoy for the next half-hour or so, and if it's good, they can pick it all back up in a couple month's time to relive it.
Commissions are great for breaking out of the norm once in a while, but artists really need to learn that their time is worth more than a fraction of minimum wage. Artists really need to look at what they're charging for their work, and divide that by the time it takes them to create that work. If that $30 "full-color-one-character-with-minimal-background" piece ends up costing you $5/hour, you've either gotta speed your ass up, or hike that price up.
I saw a couple points from other people about artists making work that fall out of their fans' tastes, but I simply cannot buy that. Artists change. If your work doesn't eventually alienate some members of your fanbase, you aren't growing as an artist. This is just as true for musicians as it is for visual artists, writers, etc. The fans that stick around grow with you, and a fresh change of pace attracts new fans in the process. The fanbase grows, and the artist is even further supported to continue experimenting and creating — The cycle continues.
I don't need to get into piracy/theft either. There's a difference between sharing with one or three close friends, and sharing with anyone who knows how to type "Comic Title Issue #4 Download Torrent" into a search engine. I know you've already expressed that sentiment in the comments.
Okay, I'm typing way more than I planned to, welp.
GOOD JOURNAL, AGREE WITH WORDS THANK YOU
thanks for the advice dude :D
It's unfortunate though, but taking commissions for a while is almost a needed step in the path to becoming sufficient, even if one can't make a living solely off of them. The lesser artists still need a way to get their name out and become known. Which is why I also started
I'm all about paying forward and helping out fellow artists to the best of my ability.
i look forward to not only using but buying from a site like you mentioned, america NEEDS a site like digiket!!! good luck!!
Also, thanks for the watchback! It's much appreciated. I just came across you now from
As i wrote, things like portfolios and comics require also an infrastructure to be an easily viable option, and that's a pretty big barrier for aspiring artists. I'd love to participate to it and give feedback.
Also, the commission market could actually use a better infrastructure too, so that scammers could be avoided and artist who offer great service on top of great art could be rewarded.
However, what you say is true. And I feel kind of ashamed. Looking through my gallery I see that the majority of what I have to show for myself is commissions, and I don't feel that reflects who I am or what I like. That and it makes me look like a whore. D:
Any tips or basic info on comic production? I've wanted to make my own comics for a while, but I've just never gotten around to it. Drawing them up isn't a problem for me, I'm just not sure about what would be the best means of distribution. Since art isn't my main career goal I don't really want to invest in my own website, but I would like to get paid for making a comic or two of my own volition.
Art can become a successful career for those whom pursue it, but I chose to pursue other things. :3
comics are painstaking and brutal and take tons of time. hm, that's not advice! i'd say the most important part of comics is to work in phases, complete the story first, then the sketches, then the inks, then the colour, etc etc, don't work one page at a time.
Cheers!
bank/debit cards work with the site though. i can't take paypal because they aren't a real banking entity.
I'm gonna go look into this. :)
The vast majority of producers of content aren't trying to make a living off of it. It's just something for a little extra cash on the side or something between college work. These people will always undercut you because they don't want to or know how to commercialize what they are doing. Unlike a lot of your work, I give freely the access to any and all of my work I have done, and bolster the fandom as a whole in doing so. Yeah, you have lots of nice art from what I can tell, but it's hidden in a closed community that does nothing to contribute to the fandom. Also, don't forget that sometimes, with big popular artists like you around to suck up so much of the spare dollars and commissioners, newer or less talented artists have to find a way to draw in customers. Your very successful presence means they have to cut prices drastically to even attract customers. I've seen the trend so many times: A new artist enters the fandom. They draw a few little things and then offer free requests. After the requests start getting out of hand they change to offering very cheap commissions. Very slowly business starts to pick up, and demand gradually goes up until they are able to raise their prices. This can go on until they graduate to auctioning slots and whatnot. However, not everyone catapults to success like that, and may find themselves trapped in a lower bracket of the progression scale indefinitely. These people will always have the low prices or free art, and there's nothing to be done about the negative effect they have on you. You have a right to make a living, I'm not arguing that, but supporting artists isn't more important than supporting the fandom, and a paysite will never, ever do that. Remember that it took the fandom to get you where you are now, and that if everyone started only putting their art on paysites the fandom would simply shrivel and die nearly out, and a closed site like that definitely isn't going to be the place new potential furries will find a haven to figure out who they are and become a potential contributor. Never forget that creation of one's personal characters and stories by others willing to take payment to do the work is what builds the fandom too, not just paying for monthly porn.
I am not trying to be offensive, or start trouble, but a dose of perspective is necessary, and in truth your journal comes across as frustration because you aren't making as much money as you want to from what you do. I know, the lure of the paysite is that you might be able to do less work to make more money, but really, with the recession going on right now, you're going to have to accept that a lot of your target audience would consider your 'poor people wage' better than what they make now, and they just don't have any money to waste on pornography when there is food and bills to pay and getting a job with decent pay and enough hours is impossible. Your ideal view of the fandom is, ultimately, very self centered. You want everyone to pay you to the point you make all your money off your paysite, at the expense of creativity and the growth of the fandom itself. If everyone made paysites like yours you wouldn't make as much as you do now, either, even if some decided to become a part of yours you would lose customers to the other ones. It wouldn't really work out. You also need to accept that a majority of furries don't want or take interest in paysites, and a larger number might like portfolios, but again, as I said above, if it doesn't have their character in it, it immediately loses a lot of draw. Another problem is that even if the sign up fee for a paysite is higher, a furry can easily just pay for a month only once a year and get access to everything on the site.
In response particularly to your 'consumer' section before my thoughts meander all over for another hour trying to express more varied reasonings than I can possibly hope to express, which I find I have severe disagreements with:
Commissioning may not be the best way to support a furry artist, but it is better than nothing at all. Most of us don't have the money to pay the living cost a piece of art would need to have. That's really just how it is. And it's not just about the artist! A commission is the best way to support an artist and also contribute something unique to the fandom that the commissioner can put on their own page, get some attention for, meet new people with- the social implications are endless just because the commissioner gets to do stuff with the image. Portfolios and paysites? No social benefit whatsoever, or a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction at having something that was entirely your own idea brought to life. Personal advancement is important- it's what keeps people around and keeps furry going in a sense. Without that spark, the furry fandom would wither away, as the growth of such works help keep people here and finding us, and in turn supply you with your customers who are interested in what you offer them.
It may be cheaper to get folios, comics, and paysites, but it's empty, in the end. You need to express your own character, even if it costs you more personally. Your own characters will have a meaning to you, they are special and yours. You can put them on your page and benefit from them. It lets you put a little of YOU onto the page. Do you understand the tangible credibility and importance of this counterpoint? Everyone has their own world, characters, stories, and interests to express, and all that stuff you personally want them buying don't express any of them! Your perfect ideal destroys uniqueness and individuality by making the individual into a customer only paying for milled out work for the masses. The thought of such a fandom being reduced to that end is saddening and horrifying to me. A low quality image of one's own character may be treasured far more and considered 'better' than the most detailed image imaginable of a random throwaway character.
I need to again stress that if most of the work becomes pay to possess that it will NOT make the fandom grow. To put it bluntly, paysites are kind of like a form of parasite. I don't mean to imply the negativity associated with such a word, but it cannot be denied they prosper while the fandom does but don't actually contribute anything to it. If the fandom weakens because too many paysites are drawing upon it, then the paysites all begin to suffer as well in a chain that ultimately terminates the paysites and leaves the fandom damaged but able to eventually recover until paysites draw upon it again.. That's pretty much the definition of a parasitic relationship. The more non commissioned work people buy, the more the fandom dies and goes from a personal experience to a commercial enterprise. There's nothing win/win about it, the artists merely 'win' for a while until they succeed at cutting their revenue off at the source. It would probably take a decade or two, but it would happen. We are such a strong fandom because we produce our content almost entirely, but reducing that process to only what the minority who can draw mill out only causes damage in the end.
I'd love to see more comics, more professional writing, more great art the artist was ecstatic to produce, but I don't think it's worth the loss of individuality and creativity your wishes would result in. I'd rather see hundreds of new personal character images than twenty high quality comics.
Make money with your site and portfolios, but don't ever forget that they are not the most important part of the fandom, or its survival and growth. They offer something that a lot of people do want and pay for, and that itself is still a contribution of sorts. Making a living as an artist is a hard road and in the furry fandom only a very few artists are able to do so in the face of amazing demand for their work. For most, such a thing cannot last or becomes too frustrating. If you're managing to get by without a normal job I tip my hat to you, but always remember that your art may not be able to support you alone forever, if the economy doesn't improve any time soon.
I suppose that's all I have to say for now. It's impossible for me to cover everything adequately, but that's my best effort at the moment.
the idea of 'personal' i see so much, this kind of attitude ONLY exists in english speaking furry fandom. i have never seen it elsewhere, and it is frankly bizarre. do you only buy movies or comics or books that you commission? of course not, so why should furry be different? because it's more 'personal'? what does that even really mean? to me, it means selfish. you want drawings of your character? then learn to draw! commissions are here to stay, tons of artists start with commission work in tons of different fields. that's fine. i'm not telling people to stop taking commissions forever. i'm saying that artists can do more, and furry consumers should examine what artists put out too. people who try to sell comics or art in this fandom are often seen as 'traitors' when really they are just drawing what they love to draw. just like any other cartoonist. when people start publishing and making money, their fans are usually happy to see it. but in furry, you are almost punished for it. you're a sell out, you're only doing it for money. people try to chase you away. they cut off their nose to spite their face. it's a spoiled attitude, one which i hold artists and fans accountable for. and while you might find it impersonal to buy comics or whatever that weren't specifically tailored for you, i find it impersonal to be told what to draw.
you say that paysites don't contribute anything to the fandom, how about the hundreds of images and large array of comics they produce? these are the things that are a large part of the very essence of the fandom. the only difference between sold art and free art is that sold art has to be BETTER. furries aren't stupid, they wont pay for a pile of shitty drawings. that's why i call on artists to make GOOD drawings and INTERESTING comics, and i say to never treat your audience like idiots or to rip them off. you call paysites parasitic, i call the commission based system parasitic. artists are paid crap to draw something they don't give a shit about. why should an artist be paid crap to do that, when they can be paid WELL to draw shit they don't care about for some corporation or studio? and there, another artist is chased away from the fandom.
Did you ever notice the English speaking furry fandom seems to apparently be doing a lot better userwise? You base your assessment of overall worthiness on which set of artists get paid the most and who has more of the expensive detailed comics. I base overall worthiness on how much each individual has a chance to have personalized stuff. My view prefers the greatest benefit for the greatest number of people. Your view prefers artists making the most money off the least work with the least creation of new, unique things. I told you making money here is hard. This is a terrible place to actually try to make a living, so my view realistically favors the commissioners and hobby artists. The new artists and hobbyists are the ones that drive a lot of the art commissions and production of personalized works, and they will continue to keep portfolios and paysites from gaining more appeal and they will continue to attract new users and result in more of the social experience and interaction. You resent the fact they represent a creating force that takes profit from your preferred business method. You are angry those artists work at what would be unacceptable rates to you, but fail to accept the fact they either have to cut rates to get noticed, or are hobbyists and enjoy the fandom in a casual, non dollar sign related manner.
The furry fandom has to produce its own work. Being furry tends to be an imaginative fantasy and to suggest furry should have nothing to do with the person interested in it strikes me, in turn as bizarre. Movies and comics are specific stories shown or drawn to cater to an audience. They have fans who are fans of that particular thing. COPYRIGHTED things, mind you. Ideas someone else made up and owns. Why on earth would the fans try to make things inserting themselves into that? Those works have nothing to do with personalized works or commissions as they are OWNED by someone. Of course those things don't work the same! You can't fit the furry fandom into a little box like that, as it's too great of an entity to ever be so simple. A large part of the fandom is about you, the person, because no one 'owns' the furry fandom. In such an environment people are free to personalize as much as they want to. That you think the 'little' people are not as important as you is obvious. That you call wanting personal art selfish is amazing given your stance on thinking more artists should revert to your money generating model at the expense of the commissioners. So basically, the fact I'd rather pay someone to draw my character in a picture I imagined myself, could never had produced on my own, and wanted to see become reality rather than pay a mill artist to draw who knows what art that has no relevance to me at all or personal significance that I don't even own or get to put in my gallery makes ME selfish? Why would I spend money on something not special to me exactly? Because you, the so hard working artist, should be given my money instead for the art you put out to have lots of people pay to see? Why am I supposed to adore random porn of someone else's throwaway characters? I suspect you are seeing dollar signs in the sky and can't see the little people on the ground anymore. You've turned us into nothing more than peons who should be paying you or others for mill art, and how dare we have personal wants and desires to attain that keep that money away from that.
Why should I learn to draw? That's a cop out superiority complex answer and you know it. My idea has no right to exist and how dare I employ an artist to make it exist for me? I already spend my time perfecting my writing! Better to pay others to do it for me than to spend years trying to attain the skill level that would be necessary to replicate what I see in my head. Furry consumers want to be catered to, given deals, personalized things. They really aren't, for the most part, going to see any benefit to portfolios or paysites. If money was the only thing they were concerned about of course they'd fall head over heels for what you offer, but the furry consumer is also intelligent and values some things more than others in a unique manner from person to person. I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that comic sellers are seen as traitors by some since anyone who would think such a long term piece of work should be free is just being self entitled. If anyone thinks that, they are in the vast minority. I don't think anyone is questioning anyone's right to make money really, this is more about what things are important in the overall scheme of things. Of course I would find a comic impersonal, that's like saying the sun is really bright. That's not to say I think the comic is worthless, merely that it would have to really impress me to push me to buy it. Most comic writing is far below my level of writing and I tend to view them as plotless or stereotypical for the most part. I don't need to hear your very personal opinions about the injustices heaped on comic sellers. If anyone goes after an artist for selling a comic, they're definitely in a tiny minority. The fact stands that most people don't want them because it simply has nothing to interest them.
Paysites, for the most part, do not contribute by virtue of how they work. Hundreds of images and comics that are not publically accessible aren't a contribution. Most of the fandom is not pay-for-view and there's a myriad of comics and images produced outside of such sites anyone can see. Everything seems like one big commercial plan the way you talk about it. You're right that furries aren't stupid, that's why most of them don't want the portfolios and paysites. For most the furry fandom is indeed a personal experience and the impersonal nature of such things is precisely why they choose not to partake in them.
The commission system is indeed parasitic, but primarily only to artists who are attempting to attain revenue from their work closer to real world norms. At least the commission system supports a far larger amount of the furry fandom and keeps it going. It certainly doesn't harm the furry fandom, just the serious artists who want to make a living off of it. Are you going to rant at the hobbyists, the new artist trying to get a foot in the door?
Perhaos YOU don't give a shit about other people's interests(as you keep saying), but that's personal to you, and is not shared by all artists. Don't make the mistake of thinking all artists are driven by even remotely the same motives as you. There's tons of artists who enjoy new and varied experiences with a commissioner's requirements. I'll say it obviously, for a lot of people, it's not about the money, and it's about personal interests. This is normal, and healthy. You get to draw what you want, and people pay you for it. That's great and cool. But your audience is limited to people who either want your work in particular that badly, or really want a porn fix. Other artists draw what they want, put it up, then get paid to do commissions, and chances are they're fine with that too. I always think in terms of greatest benefit, and if affordable commissions and everybody getting to have art of their own characters hurts the few elite who can make a lot of money in the fandom, but results in far greater productivity and growth to the fandom, I'm okay with that, because i'm one of those 'selfish' ones who dares to be here for such ridiculous things as 'fun, socialization, and taking someone's offer to draw my character for me for 40$ or less and put it on my page.
I would certainly happily pay the current market rate in japan/america of 2-4 dollars per 24-48 pages o tone/fulldetail comics for furry comics, just because its a niche market does not mean you can expect more mooney per comic than manga publishers/marvel/dc except perhaps on trade paper backs etc, keep in mind as well a lot of comics come in 300 page books for a mere 3-4 dollars in japan as well(thoough in sketchy and black and white style). However porn comics are a bit different niche and draw a slightly wealthier crowd so 6-8 per 24-36 pages of good material is what is expected there. In full color anyway. Japan does well as its done fast and effeciently at somewhat lower qualty however don't fool yourself as with most artist they all make very low income still the lower class of the wealth bracket, ebough to rent a room buy food and the ocassional 4 days off from work for grevious injur or sickness.. they also often pump out 20 pages per week of material 50 weeks a year baring wrist/hand injuries and only make a little more than the equivilent of minimum wage. Starving artist has always been the term for the best artists ;p and if you don't want to starve you must poor most of your time and health into your chosen field, or go an easier route and work multiple jobs in addition to artistry.
Of course then one in 10 million proliffic prodigy has a much easier time nd can potentially become quite wealthy off it. But in general an artist should rarely expect to make a "good" living off their work alone withou being a well versed and simplified busines(wo)man.
Right on. IF furries want to make a living in the fandom besides making fursuits this is a good way to do it. Not the only way, but you know and I know you never said that.
There's something to be said (and thus, many people have said it above) for the value of a commission beyond being simply a piece of art but as a piece of a complex internal/internet/interpersonal identity. Commissioned art in particular has a very transformative power, because it helps people to better create their imaginary world and their place within it, and so commissions are a service that will forever be in demand. Someone else's fantasy (which is to say, their creative vision) has to be very engaging either emotionally, intellectually or visually to create the same engagement that comes from the instant recognition and affinity for one's own avatar.
Your admission that your own non-smut comics generated next-to-know income raises the embarrassing issue that your initial assertion is valid only to a certain point, that point being the tip of an erect penis. Sex is a hot commodity in the fandom, and spoogey dudes titilate on a much more basic level that engaging dialog or well-paced exposition. For the time being unless you're insanely talented and either incredibly meticulous or capable of writing/drawing something univerrsally profound you will almost certainly be drawing lots of porn if you want to make ends meet. I don't know the facts and figures of Nordgard's sales (it's a great book by the way... i Bought it:)) but I don't think the demand would be as high if Ms. and Ms. Blotch didn't have an awesome (qualitatively and quantitatively) back catalog of smut.
The myopic viewpoint that you've attempted to correct several times above is baffling but all-the-more-obviously prevalent after readeing some of your comments: a lot of furs seem to feel like art made for a general audience rather than a specific commissioner is disposable or emotionally inaccessible and that artists who make art for themselves or for no one in particular don't deserve as much support because the role of the Furry Artist is largely - in some peoples' opinions almost solely - to fulfill the fantasies of the viewer rather than express the ideas of the creator.
Equally distressing is the rampant evidence of the Furry Inferiority Complex, which seems to hold that the more ambitious an undertaking, the more disappointing it's inevitable failure. So much of "the community" seems to thrive on the acceptance and encouragement of others that people don't want to challenge themselves any harder than they need to in order to win approval, or to attempt something ambitious or unfamiliar that may not be as well-received as something that's guaranteed to appeal to established trends in taste. One wonders how many creators or consumers celebrate the value of making art for art's sake, for the sheer enjoyment of the creative process and self-expression independent of the accolades it brings (even if those accolades may be little more than the digits next to colons following "comments" and "favorites"). There's something of a vicious cycle to this, because the fandom trends towards certain demands and artists would often rather fulfill those demands and receive the easy kudos than to explore new territory and express themselves, thereby edifying the status quo further.
I think that creating opportunities for furry artists to make more money from their art is a great cause, but perhaps even more pressing a need and a prerequisite for larger numbers of folks to be able to do that is for people to support - not just financially, but critically/emotionally/world-wide-webically - artists who challenge themselves and viewers by bucking the trends and conventions of furry art and draw more engaging subjects than "here is ________'s character doing a thing he/she likes or would like to do". The problem with espousing that too vigorously is that it crosses into pedantry: who am i, you or anyone else to tell people what they should appreciate and how they should appreciate it. Let them eat Digimon porn! Note to anyone who slogged this farr down: I am not decrying character art and I enjoy tons of it, but to champion it to the exclusion of other stuff exhibits a somewhat uncreative aesthetic.
I guess what's at the center of this schpiel is that, at least for now, the majority of the "art" "consuming" "community" is less interested in art as a vehicle for the artists' self-expression and more as a means of crystallizing their own personal and collective fantasies. There are many artists, both established and emerging, and many consumers/fans/boosters who are notable exceptions to this and I think their numbers are growing, which spells great things for the years to come. I look forward to discovering more, and supporting and encouraging them all to keep on keeping on. There are also a lot of people who work within established conventions but still create powerful, beautiful, captivating bodies of images of bodies.
As for you, good sir... You're the fuckin king of the world.
***HOLY SHIT*** My computer crashed last night while proofreading this and I thought it was gone for good. It could use more editing but I think it holds water.
Also, again, to the more testy of my fellow commentators: I am not (nor is AD, jeez) saying support only one kind of art or artist to the exclusion of another. I think we just want to see some collective horizons expanded.
<a href="http://www.onanimation.com/2011/07/...../">The Big Bear Company</a>
It's by Chris Sanders, the guy behind Lilo and Stitch and HTTYD.
Of course it's up to the consumer to decide what they will and won't pay for. After all, money is precious. This is more a call to artists to try something different, as I see it, for variety's sake. If you believe that pushing in this direction is too risky an endeavor, then good, you've won the argument. You've lost nothing; commissions will continue because you are in the majority. Logical reasons already presented, there's no reason to get pissy because of the audacity with which artdecade presented his opinion.
Just to try and add something new to this OLD discussion, I would like to point out that furry (in a contemporary sense) had it's roots in Underground, with a bunch of rebellious comic artists who punched taboo through a wall. It's kind of sad that as times have changed, so has it's community, who no longer support comic artists or the idea that one could make a revenue from comics- whether it's pragmatism speaking, or disappointing experiences, or because it's not personal enough for you. Your beliefs dictate your choices.
To get to the point, I would support comics because it is near and dear to me, and I believe in it.
....aaaaand I'm late to the fight.
Well, shoot.
http://www.onanimation.com/2011/07/.....-bear-company/
thanks for adding your thoughts! better late than never, yeah?? :)
It seems some people prefer the idea of getting something for nothing, which makes me wonder how many of these people aspire to make something out of their work... sorta discouraging for those who'd one day like to make a comic
i hope you enjoy doing it! and good luck to you too :)
Just kidding. :) But not quite. It works for you? Good, but not for the consumer.
It'd be better for the consumer, if all artists were available for that price. Think about it. Can you come up with a system where subscription is cheap enough to be very affordable, yet help feed the artists?
With your approach if I want to see 20 artists, it'll cost me $200/month and 20 web site subscriptions. Your fandom will shrink to nothing. Bam.
Here's a distribution idea:
Make a general pay site, where registered artists get each paid a piece of the pot every month. All the users who consume the website are asked to vote for the pictures they like. A user can only vote once for a piece.
At the end of the month the total is tallied, and the distribution of money prorated to each artist with the number of votes they got.
You make an AUP that pictures of that site may not be copied out except for private usage. It will leak, but since the site is the source of new art, people will want to sign up, provided it is financially a non issue.
You can even have different levels of user memberships for patrons that feel like donating more. Make their votes for example be worth more.
You can also have pieces that are reserved to pay customers and not others, and have those be remunerated by the subscriptions. The others are advertisement, and hobbyist art.
bleh blah blah derp!
I believe models like netflix where the media is available for cheap is a viable deterrent to piracy, as the convenience and price makes it a pointless act.It also is a big stick up Hollywood's ass who think they're so special they deserve us to kiss their ass.
And oh, I'm a sucker for comics/graphic novels. However the US is a pauper in that media format, the business is not developed at all. I looong for good graphic novels. But I don't want to pay for a digital copy, I want a print I can collect on my shelves.
thanks for your sharing your thoughts!
However, this assumes that the artists in question are already up to the point of being able to get commissions in the first place. I mean being good enough, developed enough, with a particular recognizable consistent style. [take yourself, for example] An artist that fits that description would be able to attract and maintain such a subscription service (assuming 1.that they have the technology and 2.that they have the wherewithal to upload regularly) because they already have a fan base, they already produce work that is commercially viable, and in a manner such that any future art they create would be a "safe bet" for the consumer. Needless to say, there are few artists that are up to that level.
You didn't mention the need for/value of pro bono work. I know I'm not up to the skill level aforementioned, but I also know one of the only ways to get there is by drawing more. And one of the easiest ways to draw more is to do requests - force yourself to illustrate someone else's idea (which, I assume, is also good practice if one wants to become an illustrator). It's "cheap for you and free for them," so to speak, with little invested, little risk, and potentially a lot of fun...at least, it has been thus far. Where does pro bono sit in your worldview, as limited to selling furry art?
And there's always the question of selling in the first place. Should one sell one's art? Especially if one already has a day job, cannot get commissions, cannot guarantee any sort of regularity of quality or quantity...of course, if all those are true, then there's little reason for the artist in question to even be charging...Still, the question remains. There are plenty of good artists (not just hobbyists) who do their thing, post updates fairly regularly, have quality (and, dare I say it, popular) artwork, and never charge a cent. If nothing else, it's a great way to get one's art out there.
TLDR: it seems as though the solution you propose is a great one...for artists of your caliber and dedication. Any thoughts for the rest of us?
the way i see it, consumers feel like furry artists don't make the greatest comics or folios or whatever, so they'd rather buy commissions. and furry artists don't want to put time into making a really good comic or etc because they think no one will buy it. there's a totally understandable and perhaps deserved lack of confidence in each other. i feel like if artists started making more awesome stuff, people will be open to it and accepting of it. artists can get lazy, "why should even i think of anything good if i can just take a commission and draw whatever?" that might be ok for some artists, but not for others. i think a lot of the the reason there's a slight lack of interesting furry work is because of artist laziness and complacency. consumers can sense that, and smart consumers will take advantage of it, but in the end i think we can benefit from both arenas, and artists should try to spark that flame.
i don't want to just preach like an asshole, so putting my money where my mouth is, i've been gearing my comics away from porno stuff and into different territory. they are still erotically charged, but don't really feature gratuitous porno scenes anymore. basically adult stories. i'm trying to make some new and interesting things, i hope people give me a chance! i feel like i can create a world and characters worth investing emotion in. but hey, maybe i am wrong, and should stick to cute guys boning in the woods?? i guess i'll see how it works out! XD
went on a bit of a tangent, oops! thanks again for your thoughts :)
Most editors here in Finland, are paid depending on sales-rates. They get a small base for pay, which is usually 500-1200€/month.
Then, depending on the sales of the product you were working on, number of views (if working at a TV-sation/channel), you'll get a better pay.
And this goes for freelancers too.
No matter what you work on, when somebody gets something you made, expecting to get paid by doing so, it will have notable negative causes on your in-comes.
But I do use piracy, in some ways. For excample:
I sometimes download movies before actually purchasing them. This usually happens only with movies that are either over hyped or bashed by the critiques.
If there's a movie that I'm truly interested in wanting, I rent it out of a video rental store first, instead of downloading.
The way I use piracy i to make sure that I'll spend the money on something I like. "Insurance of quality" if you may.
If I like the movie, I will buy it on a DVD as well. If I don't like it, I don't watch it any further and leave it at that.
I think this way of piracy is kind of a "Ok". If you like the product and you can afford to buy it, you should.
I personally hate those people who like the products, have no problem or simply have the capability to pay, but refuse to do so and just keep the illegaly claimed product. It's ridicilous and selfish. It's theft (altho' just by downloading something is already theft - even if you will buy it afterwards, you still did commit a crime, LoL!)
Another way I "use piracy" is by downloading movie that I already own, onto' my computer. I'm one of those people who are too lazy to just rip the DVD's contents on the PC, so I just download it.
I travel a lot and like to watch movies on my laptop while doing so. With this, I don't see any harm done, as I already own those movies that I downloaded, on official DVD's.
Another reason I see no harm by doing this, is because most movie companies have a digital copy of the movie, bundled with the DVD/Blu-Ray release already anyway. So as long as you purchase or have purchased the product, no harm will be done with this method.
I've never thought about that before, but I know it's difficult to make an 8 dollar 32 page printed comic from self-publishing sites and still make it worthwhile for the artist. Do you know of other avenues that don't completely dick over the artist, or should we all just stick to digital and possibly just print cds for "physical" copies? :)
I don't have much faith in setting up a subscription basis for my work, but I'm getting to the point where comics are more of a serious option, and I'd really like there to be physical copies for purchase, but there's really no point from what I can see unless I somehow snag a publishing deal from some small press... and who actually prints funny animal comics anymore?
if you can get your comics printed in french, dutch, or japanese, that seems like a good way to go. i've done two and am currently doing two more comics for japanese print and those have always been worthwhile to do. though i've been hired for those, i don't know how well doujinshi (self published) do, though i have read that comics are a 1.5 billion dollar industry in japan, and almost 50% of that is doujinshi. printing is dirt cheap there, so i'm sure that helps. from what i've heard, france, netherlands, and mexico now that i'm thinking on it, all have flourishing and respected comic cultures that cater to adults as well as children.
So uh.... found any amazing beers lately?
my recent beer obsession has been lindeman's gueze and any other kind of belgian sour, ohhh so tart and vinegary!!
WV isn't exactly a cultural mecca but if there's something people can into around here, it's beer