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The Kony scam thing.
13 years ago
Okay, maybe it's not an outright "scam" as such, but WOW are the people behind that video lying through their teeth. By omission mostly, but there are some big, fat omissions there! The more I read, the more shocked I get. I guess maybe you can argue that anything is all right in order to stop child murder and rape, but is causing murder and rape in order to stop child murder and rape going to work?
Check this out. http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/p.....we-got-trouble
So there's what I already knew,
1. At least some of the video was filmed in 2003, so it's NOT up to date.
2. That Invisible Children is rated low (or not rated) by several independent charitable auditors, mostly because they refuse to let outsiders audit their books. They publish spending info, but can it be trusted?
3. That Kony is not actually free and loose in Uganda, raping children right this minute, he's more or less on the run, and his "army" is in peace talks because they've effectively been defeated and are trapped in the jungle, doing nothing.
But it gets better! Or worse. Let's go on to the new info.
4. They are in favor of "direct military intervention." We call that "war" I think. Violence is their solution to this problem.
5. What of their money goes "directly" to the charitable cause in question mostly goes to two sources:
5a. Funding films. Yeah. Uh. They make films, to raise money, so they can make films. GREAT charitable cause there.
5b. Funding the Ugandan Army (Not active outside Uganda, and Kony isn't IN Uganda anymore) and the Sudan People’s Liberation Army. In case you missed it, yes that second group is basically the same kind of "terrorist" bunch of yahoos as Kony's own Lord's Resistance Army.
And there we hit the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE problem! This charity, dedicated to ridding the world of a killer and rapist... is funding killers and rapists.
Bra-fricking-vo. *golfclap*
Please, if you want to help children in Africa, find something, ANYTHING else to support. Do not support the Kony 2012 campaign or Invisible Children Inc. Please!
And please, for frick's sake, any time you get one of these charitable causes pitched at you, RESEARCH them before you dive in and pass their links along to all your friends!
Info source dump:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisi.....Inc#Criticisms
http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/
http://ilto.wordpress.com/2006/11/0.....ible-children/
http://whitthef.wordpress.com/2012/...../07/kony-2012/
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic.....-lra?page=show
http://www.wrongingrights.com/2009/.....idea-ever.html
http://chrisblattman.com/2009/03/04.....ible-children/
http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/commen.....y_2012/c3yi4k3 <--particularly interesting.
And that's just what I turned up through idle searching while busy doing other things. I'm sure there's lots more out there.
Another update: The visible children tumblr has some new discussion, check it out. http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/
Of particular interest is this post: http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/p.....-a-better-idea This is a list of alternatives, a response to the notion that our alternatives are "support IC" or "do nothing." There are MANY other charities out there helping children in Uganda and Africa, fighting child slavery, and do other worthwhile things. Making life better for Ugandans will go a long way towards solving the *real* problem. Kony is a symptom, not a cause.
Check this out. http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/p.....we-got-trouble
So there's what I already knew,
1. At least some of the video was filmed in 2003, so it's NOT up to date.
2. That Invisible Children is rated low (or not rated) by several independent charitable auditors, mostly because they refuse to let outsiders audit their books. They publish spending info, but can it be trusted?
3. That Kony is not actually free and loose in Uganda, raping children right this minute, he's more or less on the run, and his "army" is in peace talks because they've effectively been defeated and are trapped in the jungle, doing nothing.
But it gets better! Or worse. Let's go on to the new info.
4. They are in favor of "direct military intervention." We call that "war" I think. Violence is their solution to this problem.
5. What of their money goes "directly" to the charitable cause in question mostly goes to two sources:
5a. Funding films. Yeah. Uh. They make films, to raise money, so they can make films. GREAT charitable cause there.
5b. Funding the Ugandan Army (Not active outside Uganda, and Kony isn't IN Uganda anymore) and the Sudan People’s Liberation Army. In case you missed it, yes that second group is basically the same kind of "terrorist" bunch of yahoos as Kony's own Lord's Resistance Army.
And there we hit the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE problem! This charity, dedicated to ridding the world of a killer and rapist... is funding killers and rapists.
Bra-fricking-vo. *golfclap*
Please, if you want to help children in Africa, find something, ANYTHING else to support. Do not support the Kony 2012 campaign or Invisible Children Inc. Please!
And please, for frick's sake, any time you get one of these charitable causes pitched at you, RESEARCH them before you dive in and pass their links along to all your friends!
Info source dump:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisi.....Inc#Criticisms
http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/
http://ilto.wordpress.com/2006/11/0.....ible-children/
http://whitthef.wordpress.com/2012/...../07/kony-2012/
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic.....-lra?page=show
http://www.wrongingrights.com/2009/.....idea-ever.html
http://chrisblattman.com/2009/03/04.....ible-children/
http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/commen.....y_2012/c3yi4k3 <--particularly interesting.
And that's just what I turned up through idle searching while busy doing other things. I'm sure there's lots more out there.
Another update: The visible children tumblr has some new discussion, check it out. http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/
Of particular interest is this post: http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/p.....-a-better-idea This is a list of alternatives, a response to the notion that our alternatives are "support IC" or "do nothing." There are MANY other charities out there helping children in Uganda and Africa, fighting child slavery, and do other worthwhile things. Making life better for Ugandans will go a long way towards solving the *real* problem. Kony is a symptom, not a cause.
It's actually more of a movement than an army.
I am ALL for trying to give a little effort to helping our world, but I'd prefer to give to people who actually ARE helping, and not people who think funding terrorists is a good idea.
Also noted from a friend...
"A rating of 51% for a growing charity? Sounds about right to me. Prime Example: American Red Cross is only at 62% http://www.charitynavigator.org/ind.....amp;orgid=3277
How do you explain that for one of, what I would consider, the largest in the country?
Believe what you want, but don't come trashing on people that actually give a fuck about something."
There is also the Protection Plan set up for this thing... http://www.invisiblechildren.com/protectionplan
They won't allow independent auditors to look at their books. That just screams trustworthy there.
http://givewell.org/International/c.....hildren,-inc-0
http://www.charitynavigator.org/ind.....mp;orgid=12429
Once again I'll say that JUST because they're not in it to make money doesn't mean they're paragons of perfect virtue. Not spending the money on yachts and mansions doesn't mean it's being spent on something I'm willing to support.
"The group is in favour of direct military intervention, and their money supports the Ugandan government’s army and various other military forces."
http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/p.....we-got-trouble
So yes the money is going to Uganda. But at least some of it is being spent to buy GUNS. Guns. I'm not going to support "guns to hunt down Kony". Sorry no. Once those guns are in the hands of the Sudan People’s Liberation Army (which IS financially aided by this cause you seem to think is so awesome) they're going to be used for plenty of other things too.
The money is also being raised to support "First Alert" technology to prevent more attacks, and is also being sent out for technology for their search party.
I'm also finding it difficult to follow his sources that were written before the video was posted though.
The people running it are making a pretty damn good living doing it. Maybe that's "industry standard" but I think it's a bit excessive. And that's from their own financial info, so since you trust them so deeply, you can believe those numbers are true.
Now how that jives with the 100% goes straight to Uganda I don't know. If they really were sending 100% of donations straight to Uganda, where are they getting the money for everything else from? Something doesn't add up there.
http://www.charitynavigator.org/ind.....mp;orgid=12429
Sorry, no. *Maybe* 100% of some specific donations go straight to the cause (which isn't really a plus for me, since I don't agree with their "cause", when they advocate violence as a way to solve violence) but according to Charity Navigator, 80.5% of the money they bring in is spent on "Program expenses" which means less than 20% of the total is actually going to Uganda. There are charities that do worse, but there are plenty that do much better.
2. They post the info, they're a non-profit organisation.
3. They state he's not in Uganda anymore and show where he's moved too.
4. "For evil to prosper, all it takes is for good men to do nothing" - Is all i need to say here, you cannot stop this any other way except with force. Your attitude of "Violence is bad" Would have seen Hitler march across europe and rule the world. Some people cannot simply be talked too, or reasoned with.
5a. What is wrong with creating advertisement to make people aware of a problem? there is nothing wrong with this.
5b. The rape and looting are MERELY allegations, some of these blogs claiming this is a scam, state it as fact at somepoint or another, but check some of them, others state the truth, that's they're allegations. The US advisors and force out there, haven't seen them do it yet, sure, they might be doing it, but atleast this is the lesser of two evils, and perhaps one we have a degree of control over, compared to a random faction affiliated to no one, and not subject to any rules.
4. Yet another Godwin for this debate. This guy is many things, but Hitler he's not. There are so many differences between this situation and WWII that I don't even know where to start.
And 5b. I don't think "rape" or "murder" is EVER a lesser evil. They're wrong. Period. You never support them, EVER.
And on BOTH of those you're acting as though the choices are to support Invisible Children and everything they do, or to let Kony run and do nothing. There are many other choices, including finding one of the MANY other charities that helps Ugandan children, or that opposes child slavery, and giving them your support and money.
I refuse to give funds to a "lesser of two evils" that may well be funding rapists and murderers when there are plenty of GOOD people and causes I can support.
5b. They are Allegations, US officials have been over there since...2006? 2003? They've never seen proof of this, Hence "allegations", i'm not naive, i know it could be happening. But this is controllable, we can atleast monitor the Ugandan army and FIX it, you can't monitor and fix a rogue group short of violence.
I don't want to quantify whether child sex slavery and rape, and making them kill people, is "more" or "Less" evil then adults being raped, or killing. They're all evil, but one of those two groups, we can influence and watch, the other we cannot.
And all right, I'll go into the Hitler thing, since you're just brushing it off. We didn't butt our nosy American selves into WWII until it WAS actually our business. And despite what the history books sometimes imply, we didn't just stroll on in all superior and American and holier-than-thou and "fix" all of europe's problems. We killed one guy, and that actually did help, because the one guy WAS the cause of the issue.
This is completely different. Kony is not the cause, he's just a symptom. Kill him and the problem doesn't vanish. And I have ZERO idea if our going over there and butting into this mess could make things better, or worse. The Ugandan government only wants us because we're giving them money. Do the people of Uganda really want us? Is stirring this hornet's nest actually going to solve anything? I don't know, and neither do the Invisible Children people. This is a huge, complicated mess that calls for a lot of thought and a lot of care, and it doesn't call for storming in with guns a-blazing. I mean COME ON. If nothing else, this Kony guy is supposed to use these kids as his bodyguard. So you march in to shoot him you have to SHOOT CHILDREN first in order to do so!
No, Ofcourse the charity doesn't, DUH. The UN do. Such a silly thing to suggest.
Ofcourse the Americans only got involved in the war when it effected them, But they still helped, once again you're looking at the differences rather than the similarities, It is my understanding that Kony's army is entirely made up, or atleast pro-dominantly, of children? and thus that, Yes, if we kill Kony, it fixes things. Also, if Kony came and took away your children in the middle of the night, Are you saying you would NOT want him tracked down and taken care of? You think the people of Uganda want to let him live and leave him alone? I don't think so, any parent will tell you straight what they'd do if someone kidnapped their child and forced them to do what Kony does, they'd want him hunted down and probably shot.
Once again, you're saying violence is not the answer, you're also suggesting that we lack any sort of..oooh...i don't know...highly trained teams of individuals that are designed for assassinations, you know, the kind that can sneak around, take out a FEW guards and then Kony, and then be gone again. The SAS aren't there for looking pretty, granted, i'm not sure that Ugandan army have such a thing, but we do, as does the US.
So why does arguing about the UN and government and the things THEY can do relate to this discussion at all, in any way? I wonder if you've actually been reading my responses at all. I wouldn't be completely opposed to a surgical strike by competent US military people, actually.
What I am opposed to is giving money to Invisible Children and THEIR "solution" to this problem. That was the point of my post, and it's what I've been debating all this time. You are apparently arguing with things I never said or intended at all.
At this point though, i'd just like to stop arguing, there's enough i don't know about the issue that i'm eventually going to look stupid saying something, as will no doubt everyone who argues this point. Please don't read it as a case of "i don't have material with which to argue back with anymore".
I just feel that this has gotten out of hand and that i am genuinely unsure of whether Kony is in a hole in deep dark Africa/ Actually still doing things in a different part of Africa/ or Dead.
And really when it comes right down to it, we're both people sitting in front of computers, neither of us has ever been to Uganda and we don't know any facts at all, just what we've read and what other people have told us, so there's no way to know for sure about any of this. I have my ideas about what I want to do about the situation, you have yours. Everybody is certainly entitled to act or not act according to their own conscience. :)
http://stw.ryerson.ca/~afox/kony.html
This really nailed me, and i felt humbled, i'm also not sure i was 100% polite, but these things can be quite heated.
I can definetely agree i do not want money going to the Ugandan Military, but i DO want awareness brought up so that the world government, US government, any government, can hear and see that we'd like him taken out for what he's done. I can see that IC is not the best means for this, even if they are currently the most effective means of raising awareness.
Also, this is less of an issue than a personal bit of soapboxing really, but what's the message? Everyone's a douchebag, never trust anyone or care about anything because everyone has an agenda? Granted, I don't support this particular campaign (anymore, that is - maybe it is a scam, the video does seem more than a little suspect on repeated viewings) but the blogs going after it seem to be, well...blogs. I'm not seeing much on AP or Reuters about it.
Also, in before "lol furries r causing teh dramaz again but i'm above it all LOOK AT ME BEING SUPERIOR LOL"
And the "message" is don't be gullible. There are TONS of wonderful causes that don't have all these dubious red flags out there. Many, many, many worthy ways to help other people. Invest your time and effort in some of them, not in whatever bunch of crap manages to go viral on pure emotion.
There are a lot of more reputable places out there, you're right. Charitynavigator helps with finding proper sites that don't fart around with donation money.
If you like, I recently stumbled on this list of charities operating in and around Uganda, and they all rate fairly well.
http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/p.....-a-better-idea
I'd say awareness should be raised and the video watched, but not to donate to that particular group and instead to donate to one of the ones linked above.