this is really an asshole behaviour ...

I agree

Da fuq. I agree with above person. These are assholes.

Since the people that won it can not be contacted, is there any other way the second in line could be? I mean, this isn't right at all and I wish there was an easy solution.

Isn't there a process in which a bidder's information is recorded before they're allowed to make a bid? That's generally how auctions I've been to have worked, albeit they were property auctions. If someone flakes out on a bid, they're pretty easy to find afterward.

Not all of them, I've been to several where it was open to anyone, But they did have you come up and write down your information as soon as you won. Even so, there should usually be back up plans in case these kinds of people back out.

I suppose the setup might be a bit more informal for an art auction, but situations like this aren't new and have tried and trusted methods of prevention. It isn't uncommon for auctions to keep track of who bid which price for each item so as to find a second, third or fourth bidder if higher bids flake out.

It's disappointing to see this kind of thing happen, but I can't help but feel that either the convention or the person hosting the auction is at least some way responsible for not taking more detailed precautions.

True, but I guess it's a learning experience if nothing else. I agree with you completely. They will need better planning in the future, plain and simple.

Even when there is, if someone refuses to answer emails or calls because they decided they cant afford what they promised to pay...conventions can't hire collection agencies to handle it for them. It would divert some of the problem by taking good contact records, but it doesn't fix the problem entirely.

You do have a point with regards to collection agencies. I can't see that being an actual option for a small "business" like furry art auctions, given the agencies take a pretty hefty cut of what they're able to collect.

Also, cons aren't small businesses, they're not-for-profit.

...this fandom badly needs a convention that is for profit. Nothing motivates quality and service like compensation does.

Most conventions actually ARE "for profit" due the expense and requirements involved with becoming not-for-profit.

And not-for-profit does not mean they can't pay people, nor does it mean they can't work towards making tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars... It simply means they don't pay the owner or shareholders, unless of course those people are also employed by the non-profit organization.

I'm not sure what you mean. As is, conventions don't have employees, they have volunteers. Of course they have to collect money to cover costs. I am talking about generating profit that can be reinvested for the purpose of hiring staff, performers, or even things like R&D. In this case, the point I'm trying to make is that a great convention could result from paying some of those in the staff, particularly if success was rewarded in their salary.

As is, artists' livelihoods are subject to a ton of fluctuation and unreliability due to the fact that dealers den and art show directors are usually involved in the fandom as a hobby. Its very difficult for people to make a living where much of their income comes from an environment that is controlled solely by people who are in it for fun. This is not a criticism of those people, it is just the result of the situation. I certainly don't think that the way cons do it now should be done away with..I would just like to see some more variety. While its convenient to know what to expect from one con to the next...more options and more opportunities for experimentation with methods would eventually result in better convention.

In the case of the dealer's den, for example, there are many other ways to handle it. Right now, the fandom generally does it only one way at every convention. I'm not going to get into details about it because I don't have much time for debate this week, but the way we're doing it right now provides inconsistent results, making it difficult for dealers to determine if its worth their time, how much merchandise to bring, etc because it changes so much year to year. However, nobody is motivated to make things better because they work well enough for the general con-goer, and "good enough" is good enough when staff don't directly benefit from things getting better for the dealers.

And what I mean, is that some conventions DO have employees. And many hire performers.

But while debating with me won't change anything, obviously, I think that a lot of conventions would love to hear your feedback on how to improve their Dealer's Den and Art Show. Granted, my understanding is that both of these departments cost the conventions money and things like charging for a Dealer's Table or getting a commission on sold artwork only serves to offset some of those costs... But if everyone was unhappy and left, it would hurt the convention itself.

Actually, the ones that have the problems usually don't love to hear feedback because they don't fully consider feedback unless its easy for them to change. I can say this because I have in the past been very active with sending emails and talking in person to people in charge of dealers dens, artist alleys, and art shows, with suggestions and ideas. I've done this with at least 6 conventions I've been to, with some of them multiple years and multiple conversations. The cons that tend to be good like the feedback and consider it...the ones that are not do not and answer in a hostile manner. Even with that said, the better conventions still stick to small changes only, which is why even the large ones and the small ones all do the same system.

What you're missing is that almost all changes in the artist alley or dealers den are made to make someone happy. The issue is that what works great for one group sometimes screws another, but people aren't always looking to find the best solution for all...they're looking for the solution that allows them less drama and less effort. For example...artist-dealers have been complaining for quite a while at a few conventions about the way the artist alley is handled and how it kills business for artists in the dealers room. (Some conventions have this balanced ok, some horribly). However, the fact that the dealers are paying 800-1000% more than the artist alley people does not configure into how things are set up, even though it should. Right now, these few conventions that I'm referring to are having tons of artists drop them from their schedules, and it doesn't effect them because the problem does not effect the non-artist dealers, who will instead pay for that empty table. So no, the problem is not about EVERYONE being unhappy and leaving, so the convention sees no monetary setback, but the types of dealers are unbalanced and it does in the end effect the quality of the convention.

I am not aware of any conventions in the fandom that pay their staff. Could you name a few? Do any pay based on how well the job is performed or by how well they are reviewed by the people who are paying for their service?

I agree with SuzanneR and Fastchapter. I wish that the auctions would take down more information from the person prior to allowing a bid.. and then SuzanneR's suggestion would be a breeze. It's just a matter of putting it in the rules that if you cannot be reached for a certain span of time, your bid is forfeit.. in fact, I like this idea so much, as Exhibitions division head for Furthemore, I will be letting my Art Show head know about this and see if it's something we can still incorporate in time for April.

Rainfurrest takes down at least a phone number, email address and mailing address for bidders, bidders must be convention attendees, so the con also has their full name, but I'm pretty sure that is on the bidder information sheet as well.

It is currently up to the art show lead to determine if they want to give outbid people a second chance if the winner is not purchasing the art.

As I have experienced before with the Artist's Alley, a Phone number and email address doesn't always work out for the convention.. and all of our contacts had to be convention attendees, so we had their badge name and badge number as well as their legal name.

I understand that is up to the art show lead, and I also understand some folks may have spent their money on another item. I don't think they should be Forced to purchase it, but it gives them an opportunity to catch the item still.. which also gets the artist another shot at getting the money for their piece and time.

While we cannot force them to purchase it, they should be essentially forced to take the bidding more seriously. There's a reason websites like ebay etc don't allow you to back out of bids, and its becaues it undermines the purpose of an auction. If someone fails to live up to a bid that they place when they win an auction, they should not be allowed to bid in auctions at the same convention in following years.

Sorry, I didn't clarify my statement. I know we cannot "force" anyone to make payment, but what I was referring to was the second highest bidder. Technically the highest bidder CAN be held accountable for their bid placed, per the rules given when they agree to enter the area and place bids. Anyone who was not top bidder cannot be held to that bid necessarily. They may very well have seen that they were outbid, and chose to spend their money elsewhere, be it another auction piece, or perhaps something in the Dealer's Den.

I've heard that some conventions have it in their rules that if you don't pay for your art auction, you cannot return until you do.

Makes sense to me!!

Unless maybe some freak emergency situation came up, but even then it'd be polite to tell them "hey guys, I have to go, give this thing to the next bidder, I just found out my mom got hit by a car and I need to help her pay hospital bills" or something like that. And that's not going to be a common or likely scenario anyway... x.x

at german cons your bidding must be followed by your registartion number, so they would know who did it.

of course, one can always make up some number, or use someone else's. happened to me once; good thing it was only a few euros, and I didn't mind buying that piece of art anyway.
but I never bid on it.

looks like people do shit like this "becauase they can". I hope someone snipes them one day too, "because they can". a dose of one's own medicine...

I am working for Cairyn and B_P (with naut) on a redesign and reimplementation of the EF artshow system (heavily based on the existing system, but with a number of consolidations and extensions).

Even under the current system, it should be difficult to fake a bid from someone else. When we give you a bidder number, you must show your badge, and we link the bidder number to the convention registration database. To break the system, you would have to get a barcode sticker with somebody else's bidder number.

Of course, there's one easy way to do that: pick up a bidder-number sheet that somebody else has lost. (Or steal their sheet. At the moment, this confusion could even happen accidentally. We should look into ways of preventing that -- I think it would probably be enough just to put the attendee's badge number and name at the top of the bidder-sticker sheet that they carry around.

Of course somebody could forge new bidder-number stickers. But fortunately that would require active malice, and I do not think that is a serious risk at the EF art show. And if someone does want to spoil the art show, then there are many easier ways to do it!

that could be true! I doubt they will have as many criminal energy just to spoil someone's day; trolls want to have it easy.
the abovementioned happened at EF10 if I recall right, and they added hust the minimum bid of 7€; so, no big loss.

at MMC the easy systemt still works out, I guess. but then again there aren't that many attendants around as on EF.

so you work with Cairyn? what's the old otter up to these days? haven't heard of him in ages... lately his name came up when someone told EF3 tales again. :)

Cairyn? Oh, he's fine -- I saw him just this weekend. He writes, and thinks, and walks his dog, and smiles at people, and works all the hours God sends on making the artshow work as well as possible for a thousand-plus rampaging furries... You'll definitely find him at the EF artshow -- just nose around behind the panels until you find him. :)

aha. this year I had only time to show up for saturday, and the incredible long line before the artshow prevented me from even thinking about it...
just my luck, the first year since I can afford EF again, and can't get free from work for it. -.-

I Like how AC does it, if you don't pay you're bid you're banned from the con, it almost happened to me once cause i forgot about a piece of art

well, i don't know for how long exactly

I think I recognise Kage's touch in that. And I have no disagreement with him!

Actually they're not banned as such, we put them on the "watchlist" so when they register or try to pick up their badge the next time they attend, we can get them to pay. But some people never show up again. There are 18 such folks who owe money to the Anthrocon Art Show from previous years. We have paid the artists the bid amount (less commission) so they're not out any money. For us it's another annoying expense we have to cover because of inconsiderate fans, like spending $1600 on rooftop security because of that idiot who hung over the safety railing a couple of years ago.

Each year there are a couple of dozen people who don't pick up and pay for artwork at the con. In many cases they bought other artwork and overlooked a piece or two. Or they may have had to leave early on Sunday before sales opened. Sometimes they thought they'd lost to a higher bidder. Once in a while they simply ran out of money and couldn't afford to pay at the con. Most of them respond to my requests for payment in the weeks after the con.

This year there will be 6 added to the watchlist; 4 never responded, 2 told me by e-mail they were going to send their payment but I haven't received it. I'm contemplating posting details on the artists_beware LiveJournal community -- I included notice that such a course of action may be taken in the bidding rules this year.

That's a great system. Thank you for running such a successful art show!

Aha! I was watching for someone like you to pop up.

You, sir: I would love to talk with you, if only to bounce my ideas for the Eurofurence art show off you for a "good / no good" remark -- or, better yet, to hear about how you do things.

So far I've been working with the EF art-show staff, and of course I'd have gotten nowhere without their smarts and experience. But, naturally enough, they tend to frame things in terms of their established system. I'm eager for dissenting opinions and outside insights.

If you've the time to discuss your side of things, drop me a note to footpad@gmail.com.

That really is insulting. And I have to agree with fastchapter on this.

I agree Rukis. I make it a point not to bid on something if I don't have the funds. I do think that there should be a policy in place that the top 5 bids on all pieces auctioned off, should be notified from highest to lowest, until the item is taken. Otherwise start making a list of names that default on winning bids or those who make flse bids.

The fact that not one, but SEVERAL people did this is totally messed up. I know I would be so upset if someone had sniped a piece I was bidding on and then never paid. I don't know much about bidding in the art show, but if they use their Furry names, I suppose they could be doing it to troll under the guise of anonymity. Still messed up.

I agree with all, this is not a good thing and seriously, people who bid should at least leave a number or something so they are contacted when the auction is over. I have in the past when I make a bid to always make contact with the artist and give them my number or something in case I do win...it is just being pleasant. I don't usually trust the art room, so I will seek out the great and wonderful artist and inform them and if I win, then I will make an extra effort to be there.

They DO have their number, email, home address, etc on file.

Sounds like they need to do what they do at a local con, where I'm at, in the spring. They require you to put your badge # on the bid ticket, so they can look you up if you win and contact you.
If you win and fail to pay or get contacted, it should go to the next highest bidder. It's only fair and saves a lot headaches.

Normally in an auction, if someone backs out willingly or unwillingly, the next person down in the bid is the one that gets the opportunity to buy the piece at their legitimate bid. At least, that's how proper auctions are held so they do recover some funds instead of letting the piece go without being sold. But I do agree that the person who bid and dashed, should have their details recorded, including their Given Name which is checked against a Driver's License or some other form of ID. This way, it prevents the lowest common denominator, aka Trolls, from doing their own thing without a way of blocking and banning them from ever bidding again.

The problem here, is who then pays for shipping the piece now that the convention is over? The artist? The convention? The new bidder? None of these options are fair to anyone involved.

Shipping? Aren't these normally held within the con anyways? I would image that everyone who bid on these would know/should know that they should hang around to see if things fall through and if they have a chance of picking up the piece should someone falter. Either way, the new bidder should be more than happy to foot the bill for the artwork THEY wanted.

They normally are, but now that the convention has passed, the artwork is sitting... Somewhere. And whilst the second-highest bidder may have wanted it at the time, they may have found out that they lost and then bought other artwork instead. Or it could be that they had been bidding against the winner several times and the other person drove up the price...

Could they perhaps set a rule that winning bidders MUST be present at the end of the auction for them to actually win? Then they have to pick it up and pay before they go. (Forgive me, never been to a con to witness how this works, just trying to brainstorm ideas for preventing this sort of idiocy from ruining it for everyone.)

The way it works is that people bid on a piece of art up until a certain number of bids. If it doesn't reach the maximum bids, then you win automatically. If it does hit the maximum number of bids, it goes to open auction with the last bidder being the starting price. If nobody else bids, they win. If other people bid, they have to be present at the auction. Either way, they then have to return to the art show to pay for their artwork, since #1 the auction is usually held in one of the bigger rooms and they need the space and #2 they don't want to transport their cash and everything to this larger room just to collect, when they're already set up in the art show.

That's a damn shame really, and I'm sure you weren't the only artist affected, and perhaps others /were/ banking on getting money from their pieces that never followed through
Perhaps a bit of drinking made these people bid the highest only to find out they didn't have the money? I have no idea their explanation, but its rather upsetting no matter the reason

I havent ever thought about an auctioning of art at the cons that way, the charity thing I mean. I haven't ever bid at one either but that is some real good info to keep in mind.


Sorry it happened to you but also thanks for the info

Thats really shitty of them :C
They should be banned from the convention

Anthrocon and other conventions do this. I don't know the policy at that particular convention, but regardless... Banning them doesn't pay for the art.

for sure...but there needs to be some sort of consequence implemented so people stop doing this. :C

Well of course. I'm just saying that they already get banned for doing this.

that is pretty crappy. I've never sold any of my art before but I can say I would be very miffed if I got stood up in payment. I've only ever been to AC and for the past few years, this is the first year I had actively tried to get some art work. These people will practically jump through hoops for you if it means the work will get paid for even if you cannot be there! I was really impressed with how things were handled on that end and I think the only way that could really be done to prevent this, like a real auction, you pay after you win (like right after) or, have payment method on record (this would cut cash which would suck but if this happens a lot, sometimes it has to be done). there would be several option to nab these people but it would make things a lot more strict.

Anyhow, sorry to hear this happened to you Rukis and any other artist that has experienced this.

I'm very surprised that it happened to you on several separate pieces, as at least in the AC art show, this was pretty rare behavior (even for a show of AC's size). Was it perhaps the same person in all instances and thus deliberate sabotage?

That's pretty heinous behavior, in any case. I hope they track the person down and get them to settle the bill.

I like how FWA handles it. Everything is tied to your registration number and in their computer system. You even pay for the art show through it. It's wonderful.

I can't believe somebody would be this horrible. Well, yes I can... And it always sucks as I'm a fairly optimistic person and this just hurts.

That's how everyone handles it. How else would you?

Yes, that is seriously not ok. But then again, doesn't that auction do it properly? At CF you have a badge with your name and number on it. If you win a bet they note down those. They could always look up who that person is in their DB. Unless you thought it was fun to use another person's badge, but then you're the fool yourself.

As stated above, just because you have all of their contact information, doesn't mean they have to respond or pay.

Definitely not a new phenom. At a San Diego ComiCon some years back, someone went around bidding on all the furry peices and then not paying for them. At one of the ConFurences somebody bid quite a good amount on one of my pictures, then remembered he needed the money for something else and backed out of paying.

For someone to make bids and not pay, either--

An enemy/ detractor who is deliberately fucking with you -or-

someone bid on everything they liked in the show, with the expectation of being outbid on a lot of stuff, and when that didn't happen they were caught short of money -or-

(more rarely) Someone thinks they're 'helping' you by bidding a peice up, and when they end up with the winning bid they have neither the means or the desire to actually spend the money.

Which of those scenarios is closer to the truth, who knows?

Unfortunately, offering it to the next bidder in line often doesn't work, because if Bidder A outbids Bidder B, Bidder B could go on to accolate his money elsewhere, and may not have the funds any more.

I am sorry to say Rukis, but this action is not uncommon amongst the fandom from what tales I've heard.

The people who are here clamor to agree with you, but there's consentual agreement, and then application of said policies: Often times people whom would agree, may often times never take part in auctions themselves.

While I agree with what you are saying, this is likely one of the reasons I would never deign to bid on an auction; At times prices can become unreasonably high based on false bids (as you have stated) and then never come to render payment once the auction ends.

With the kind of quagmire like that, it is my opinion that commissions thus are far more reliable, and personable: Provided both parties have the time and are able to communicate, it can sometimes turn into a far more enjoyable experience.

There are hundreds of pieces in a typical art auction and possibly thousands at the larger conventions. How can you say that false bids are raising all of the prices and payments aren't made when the auctions end, when Anthrocon themselves mention that in 16 years, they've only had to ban 18 people for not paying? When you look at the numbers, your statements simply don't make sense.

Good for you.

I tend not to bid on things, as often its out of my price range.

That said:
People are jerks, even if they didn't intend to be.

I hope the art show at FE this year (first time for them) goes well, I hope to participate in it and i think it'll be amazing to see the benefit to the con that would come out of it.

Keep in mind, sometimes bad things happen to those people. Just trying to shed another light. I know a few years ago i placed a bid on this great piece of artwork, but ends up that con didn't accept paypal/debt when i was under the knowledge that they did. I felt horrible, and did explain the situation to staff even though that was really embarrassing. I was underage and in a city i've never been in. (I wasn't going to walk around in a big city i've never been in and alone, trying to find a atm.) Just keep in mind something could have happened, a emergency, or otherwise unknown event.

Now for the others that place the bid, win.. and just flake out and decided later on they really didn't want it.. thats another story.

Cons need to get more info, contact the previous bidder and ask if they would still like the artwork/object in question (Preferably while the con is still going, like right after cut off time to pick up the item)

I strongly discourage the placing $1 to steal the item, especially if all slots have been filled and it goes to auction. I think they need to have something like minimum $5 increments between bids.

Usually there are ATMs inside the establishment/center the convention is in, so wandering the city wouldn't be necessary.

As far as contact info.. They may have taken down precise contact info. Having worked for AC in the Artists Alley, I don't know how many times this past year we had a phone number on our list for us to contact them with, and it didnt' work. The best were the folks that signed up for the lottery for the 4 seats reserved for folks that didn't get in on the lottery done in advance and when they filled it out, I told them to give me a way to contact them at Precisely 10am, when I was to draw and call the winners. It took me several tries because the first one, the number was "not in service".. and the second one went to voicemail; she didn't respond until that Afternoon when she strolled over to us to ask us why she hadn't been contacted... when in fact, she had been.

it wasn't any of the folks who had an ambulance ride during the con was it?

Honestly they jsut need to require a downpayment and registration for each new bidder. This would stop the bidding kids right in their tracks. If you don't win the bid, you get your down payment back, so no money lost. If you do win the bid, you owe what you bid minus your downpayment. If you don't pay well... they have your financial information, and/or your contact information, and you don't get your downpayment back.

That's all that needs to be done. People won't fake bid if they know that if they actually do win, they won't get their $25-$50 downpayment back, while also being banned from future cons for not paying (as they would be required to register for the bidding). People who put down fake information would obviously not get their downpayments back either, since they didn't provide proper contact info.

It might seem a little heavy handed but lets be honest here - REAL bidders would have no issue with this, especailly since it isn't actually costing them anything extra - they get that downpayment back if they lose the bid, and their bid is $X amount less depending on what their downpayment was if they actually win. And best of all, it'll likely made bidding cheaper, because there will be less bullshit bidding, less fraud causing artists to make no money on their auctions, etc.

If you want to participate in bidding, put money where your mouth is. If you don't want to, then clearly bidding isn't the thing you are really there for - you just want to cause a mess of things because you don't actually have money to bid with.

Registration yes -- I'd say that anonymous bidding is asking for trouble. (As opposed to anonymised bidding, as used at Eurofurence and a number of other cons, where the bidders have anonymous numbers that only the art-show staff can trace back to an actual person.)

Down-payments, though? My gut feeling is that that would strongly reduce the number of people who were actually prepared to bid. True, logically it should make no difference, but people aren't logical, and bidding's often more about impulse than logic. If people have to go and find money, bring it to the artshow and lay it down on the table, it's going to stop a lot of them bidding at all. It's no good to Rukis if she gets rid of 10% of dishonest bids, only to find that she's also lost 50% of her honest bids.

Also it'd be a heck of a lot of extra organisational effort and responsibility for the artshow. Holding other people's money is a recipe for more kinds of trouble than you can shake a stick at. I'm involved in artshow organisation and, personally, I wouldn't touch downpayments with a bargepole.

But lets be honest here. If you are someone who is bidding on an art auction, which you are going to be paying with for cash anyways since you are at a con, why would you do so if you didn't actually have any cash on you?

People who are actually bidding on an auction, are people who actually have money to spend. A downpayment is nothing, because it doesn't actually "cost" extra - you get the down payment back if you win or lose. The caveat is, if you win, and you DON'T pay the bid, you don't get that down payment back - for inconveniencing the artist, con staff, and everyone involved.

This is the only way to 100% stop all fake bidding. First of all, the "price of entry" alone (which wouldn't be that high, $25 or so) would make it so the kiddies out there don't bid to screw everything up. And the people who would bid for funsies but not actually have any real money would be stopped, because if they put $25 twoards something and actually win, they'll have to pay to get their $25 back.

The problem with just registration is that it doesn't actually stop the issue, especially since people can put down fake information. The best you can hope to achieve with registration alone is that people who abuse the system get banned from the con in the future. That'll stop a couple of people I'm sure but it won't prevent cases where someone wants to legitmately bid in their heart, but they simply don't have the money at the moment and are hoping they get enough in some indeterminate amount of time. In the minds of the people, bidding on stuff without actually putting money where you mouth is, is like getting a "free" commission right now, that you don't have to pay for till (way) later.

Small downpayments to register for bidding will solve all of these. It'll prevent the legitimately-minded bidder who just doesn't have the money at the moment from bidding, it'll prevent the kiddies from writing stuff on bids for funsies, and it'll prevent people who want to troll and would otherwise provide fake information on the registration. What it WONT prevent are actual bidders, who have money and actually want to bid on artwork. These folks are the real audience for bidding - and the people who will actually pay. And the type of people, where a downpayment will not inconveinence them in any way - because if they lose they get their $25 back, and if they win they pay their bid minus their $25 downpayment. It's a win-win for legit bidders, because it'll keep prices lower in the end due to no more people BS bidding on artwork.

Of course another way to do this is to actually to live auction bidding at the con. In otherwords, bidders are required to register for the auction event, and actually bid live at the auction. This means they'd have to pay at the con, instead of paying after the con. If someone doesn't pay - they get kicked out right then and there, and the auction is restarted.

Agreed. And with things like Square, the down payment can be a hold on a credit card, which is released if the bidder does not win. That way, there IS no risk - you're backed up by the might of Visa (or whoever) should the evil merchant try to screw you over.

If furry cons haven't started using instant payment services like Square yet, it's high time. Hell, my plumber uses it, and the guy at the kink con who sells rope for a living uses it, and the guy next to him who makes collars in his basement and sells those as a sideline business uses it, and the lady next to HIM who wants to sell you a magically attuned woo crystal that will make your BDSM more woo uses it.

Use the available technology, and make these events better for vendors and patrons alike.

Issues exist with Square, the largest of those being that the con would have to buy the phones to use it on, and honestly credit card terminals are cheaper. One recently brought up is that they may say they don't limit your transactions, but they do (this means it can take months to get all of that $40,000 in credit card payments the con took over the weekend). Another one is Square has not definitively answered the question of PCI compliance, which may be fine for a plumber who only uses Square, but if you use credit card terminals, online merchant payment portals or whatnot, it can suddenly be a big issue, with fines.

Yeah... This entire proposal is stupid.

Anthrocon has hundreds of pieces entered into the artist auction each year, if not a thousand or more at this point. And on those pieces, nearly every person who attends the convention, pass through. 'though let's assume only 1,000 or so actually bid. That's $25,000 you want the convention to collect and then redistribute, on top of all of the other money they already have to deal with. All because, over their first 15 years... They had 18 people not pay for their auction. That's like all of the "voter fraud" precautions that the government is pushing through to stop people from voting, in states which have never had any documented voter fraud! The percentage is so ridiculously low, there's no logic to it.

Down payment...

This sounds like something that might end up with the art show having to handle _a lot_ of cash.

Also, credit... it could seriously screw with the merchant account, too many holds, mistakes get made... chargebacks.

Cons handle lots of cash already. Why would it be any different for downpayments at the con? Perhaps when you register for the con, you can choose to get an "auctioneer pass", which is $25 extra but lets you bid on items in the auction. If you don't win anything at the con, then you get that $25 back but if you do then whatever you pay for the bid will be $25 less due to that extra payment for the "auctioneer pass"

There are some issues with this:

1. Most conventions' corporate bylaws prohibit disbursals by cash, in other words a check has to be written for everything. This can become a serious expenditure in time and money. This also substantially increases the chance of stale and lost checks.

2. If the convention could give out cash for it, it still means a lot of tracking will have to be done. This could easily be $5-10,000 in cash that is to be handled, this is cash that the con has to get from people, store and return to people. Generally cons don't like storing lots of cash on site for longer than they need to, they take it to the bank, which also avoids storing lots of cash on site (have you ever tried to make a withdrawal of more than $5,000?).

3. This creates a mess for credit card transactions. Either holds are placed and then expired, or charges are made and then refunded. This is not a trivial task if you had say 200 bidders.

4. It does not solve the actual problem, people will still bid on things and forget about having done it, pay the fee and bid on things maliciously, or plain steal the bid stickers and bid on things for other people. We paid the artist $600 for a piece, but hey, we have $25 from the bidder?

That's just sad to hear people do this to artists at auctions, if the staff there knows the contacts for said bidders they should be banned from all future cons to prevent them from doing it again and as a punishment to show it will not be tolerated.

I am working on a new system to manage the Eurofurence art show and auction, so I'm currently acutely interested in this kind of stuff. This is just the kind of perverse behaviour that I'm trying to anticipate and hopefully forestall. I'm adding your unfortunate experience to my disconcertingly-long list of pathological use-cases.

If this happens to you with art you show at EF, it is my humble hope that we will have a defined process for dealing with it. Not necessarily an ideal process -- for instance, we have no legal right to actually demand payment (that would damage EF's non-profit status). But it seems to me that we could ask the security team to arrange a non-confrontational talk with the culprit so we can ask them nicely, and there are possibilities for blacklisting people and falling back to the next-highest bid.

(Disclaimer: that's not to imply that I'm some kind of single-handed hero. My work is under the guidance and experience of the splendid EF art-show team; and the Swiss fur naut is doing the Web front-end to the geek side of the project.)

are there many fake bids at the ef?
however art show itself was really good organised and iam looking forward to see how this will be done next year ;)

I was not personally involved in the high-level administration of the artshow, so I don't know how many bids failed to be honoured. I do know we had a very small number of pieces that weren't picked up, but I don't know the cause.

however art show itself was really good organised

I'm glad to hear you think so! In fact there were some fairly nasty technical issues behind the scenes, but I am glad they did not detract from your experience!

Fake bidders are a real problem,they cause at least financial damage to the artist and the con -.-
and they stop people who really want to buy the art...
I myself wouldn't bid on a piece i know i cant afford or bid on to many pieces so that i cant affort them all...

Solution: You're not allowed to leave the action without paying for your bid. And if you do, you're permabanned from the con. Problem solved. This person is a douchebag, and should be treated as such if they ever show their face at a con. It sounds like rainfurest needs to redo their art show polices as well...

Well written Rukis. I have had this happen to me before and it is frustrating on all ends, as well as just being rude and disrespectful. I may repost this...

Like most here have said, the con staff probably have contact details and a furry/IRL name of the highest bidder. I'm all for banning those persons from future cons. Furthermore, I think those people should be named and shamed on the cons website for all to see, along with a reasons as to why they where blacklisted. Names, pictures, country, age... the works.
It might also be interesting to see if the establishment hosting the con will work with the staff in this matter. Ask if it is possible to bill the person as part of their hotel payment. Most use cards to book overnight stays at the con.

So, you believe that conventions should post someone's private information for the entire world to see, simply because they didn't pay $20 for a winning piece of art?

Banning, sure, all conventions do that.

But there's no hotel who will let you charge any of the credit cards which were used to pay for a room, simply because they owe the convention money. The legal ramifications are just obscene. If they're lucky, the person would simply dispute the charge and they would have to give the room away for free.

A con is run by a body of people. No way could someone just preform what I said without others stepping in (nor should they even attempt to without first talking to the bidder). If a person bidded and failed, or could not pay, then the matter should be discussed first. Shaming a person is an absolute last resort (I should have said that earlier so a fail on my part there). But I don't doubt that some of the con staff could tell us all a few shocking occurrences that have happen during cons where this may be a useful deterrent in furture cons. My opinion is not directed towards bidding alone. Its towards any serious violations in the code of conduct at cons (serious drunkness, disorderly behaviour, assault, explicit behaviour in public of the worse kind, bringing weapons to the con, etc). As for legal ramifications... You'll be looking at them no matter what approch you may take. Especially if you plan to enforce anything.
My thoughts on adding the price to a persons bill is wishful thinking. But is it really beyond asking the hotel if they are a private business if that's possible? Has anyone ever asked them before???

There are two stumbling blocks to having the hotel bill people:

1) The convention is not legally part of the company that runs the hotel. This poses a problem because of the second reason here and because of credit card rules and regs. In addition, this also means the hotel has to assume chargeback liability for the convention's charges they are passing on.
2) There are no affordences in the hotel's contract with the guest for this, as there is when billing a meal to your room or if your room is left damaged. This is pretty much a no-go on its own.

Wishful thinking then. Thanks for clearing that up

They'll find 'em next year when they go to register and are rejected for not following through on their obligation - or isn't that a thing?

Nice post and well said.

I'm pretty sure after the slimy way they "won" the piece, then walking off, most likely on purpose, it was just some douche being a general asshole >>

Going once. Going twice.

There's also something to be said about people running auctions being slow to collect money and deliver pieces. I bid on a piece from a group of artists I work with on occasion and the guy in charge of it has been completely irresponsible. We had to give our phone numbers, and he never even contacted me to tell me I won a piece. A week later he happens to see me on campus and tells me I won the piece I bid on but he doesn't have it with him... it's been three weeks and I still don't have the art. He knows when I'll be on campus, and he knows that he can drop the piece off with my studio professor, but he hasn't bothered to even call me.

That really suck cause i had put some bidds on some of your art at rainfurrest and was over bid, i didnt get the guy's badge number what there was a dude in a cow boy hat that day buying alot of them its that helps maybe the staff running that may remember his number

I wasn't aware of things like this and I thank you very much for releasing this to us. I might do a piece for the RF art show, depending if I can break my digital habit. But any who, thanks for the tips

You should add that in a lot of cases this is also ILLEGAL.

An auction bid in most states is a legally binding contract. Abandoning a winning bid is illegal and has criminal penalties most places.

If they never get a hold of the highest bidder, do they call the next highest, so they get the chance to have what they bidded on? That would make sense to do that, imo anyway *shrug*

If you were the second-highest bidder on a, let's say $10 piece of art... Would you be willing to pay $30 to cover the cost of the art as well as shipping and handling?

That's not how I thought it worked out. The next highest bidder would just pay the amount they bidded, is what I thought. But if its the way you described it, then yeah, I wouldn't do that. I don't go to cons and I don't sell/bid stuff off, so I don't know how any of it works. Hence why I'm asking

If you could catch the second-highest bidder AT the convention, then they wouldn't need to pay for the artwork. But more often than not, once they know they've lost a piece, they stay at the auction and spend money on other art. And if you don't catch them at the convention, well then that artwork has to be stored somewhere and then shipped to whomever the second or third highest bidder ends up being...

Ah okay. Thanks for letting me know how this stuff works--even though I'll never need to worry about it XD--

Ditching a bid is usually a criminal offense. At the very least, the people responsible should be banned from ever attending the con in the future.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I don't understand why people would do that, charity and other ramifications aside, it's a matter of gauging how much money you have and if you bid, you need to set it aside until you are either out bid or pay for the piece.

Self control..I wouldn't bid on stuff simply because I have a lack of it when it comes to money.

This is really awful. I'm so sorry that this happened to you, and I hope these people can be contacted. What a shitty thing to do.

Here here!

not to mention...its a legal breach of contract....

Sorry this happened to you dude. Last thing artists need is to worry if the bids on our work are legit and we will be actually paid. :\

That is just low. I participated in a silent auction once, and didn't give it much thought, thinking that I would be out bid. Turns out, I was the only one who bidded on that particular piece, BUT I did pay for the piece in full. If you are going to bid on something, then make sure you 1.) intend to buy it and 2.) make sure you can afford it before bidding.

reminds me on the EF my first auction i thought that i would be outbid but i won at least one of the two things i bid, jay^^
and I have the same opinion about bidding as you.
Its a real shame that some people are so cruel to bid and dont pay -.- bad for the other bidders the artist and the con itself...

That is cool that we have had a similiar experience. Congrats to you with your wins. ^.~
IKR?!
That it is. It is a lot more damaging than people realize because it is the artist, the convention/host activity, and the other bidders who suffer great loss with that kind of crap. Example, if I really want a sketch done by Rukis at one of these cons, and someone else outbids me without intending to purchase it, then I've lost out, Rukis losses out and the con itself has lost out. People like that, the ones who bid and don't pay up when the auction is over, need to be shot!

After reading many comments regarding possible reasons why someone was unable to pay for or pick up an item after bidding on it, I have this to say.

Yes, there are often unfortunate circumstances that can lead to problems like this. HOWEVER. Bidding on an item in an auction is a serious matter! If you bid on an item, make sure that you have the funds necessary to cover the cost of your bid, even if you're certain that someone will outbid you. If you know there's a possibility that you will have to leave early the last day of the convention before the gallery opens for pickup and you may not be able to make good on your promise to pay, DON'T BID!

That's what a bid is folks. It's a promise in writing that if you win the auction, you will pay the amount of money you bid for the item and take it with you!
I think a lot of people don't realize how serious an auction is. Maybe they think "Oh, well if I don't pay and pick it up, the next highest bidder can get it. No biggie."

The problem with this is a couple of things. One, when you bid you are legally responsible for paying for the item. Those in charge of the auction can't just say "Whatever they didn't pay, give it to someone else." They are stuck trying to get in contact with you! Even if they could, chances are the next person in line is not available to just come and pay for the item. They likely have decided not to pursue bidding on the item and are no longer interested.

People, if you are serious about an item, feel free to bid on it. But please, follow through!
If you don't, you are screwing everyone else.

Would just like to say I bid on one of your pieces at auction, won, and paid for and picked it up. I'm deeply sorry that people would do this to you (and now I really wish I bid on more!). I hope they find these jerks.

This thought actually crossed my mind when I picked up my remaining pieces from the show. I noticed that all of the 'purchased' art was on one side of the room and wondered - If I'm picking up my work now, what if the buyer doesn't come pay and pick up the pieces they purchased? I'd hope the RF Art Show staff would contact me for that D:
Also, bidding on a piece and not getting it...top-notch d-bag right there. I'm sorry this happened to you, that's just really horrible =(

Man even at live auction? I would figure that the face to face would create some kind of stigma for them to actually come get their art - Gah I'm really sorry to hear that. However, I was extremely surprised how little a activity the artshow got. Some of the pieces I bought after the auction just because I knew they didn't end up getting sold and didn't bid on it initially because I was certain I'd get outbid =/

RF: Don't let those bidders reg next year xD

I agree that this is a bunch of b.s, but it does happen. It is not just a furry issue, it seems to happen more in our fandom though. I hope that they get their karmic payback real soon.

Yeah, that sucks. I was bidding on a piece at RMFC this year and placed a final bid that would take it to the voice auction knowing I couldn't actually be there for it. Even though I practically knew that I had been outbid, I still stopped by to double check that I was in face outbid.

And this is, why we over in Germany rely on registration process, so that we got them by the balls (As give out takes place 1 day before the con ends).
Anyhow, i also have always to remind people in bidding, that this 1€/$ biding is crappy, and they should show some honour, or otherwise their bid will not be counted (another method of making things easier and spicier...). Just my thoughts as auctioneer/ Art show assistant.

With English Auctions, which these are, it's not uncommon that the auctioneer sets a minimum bid increase. This whole sniping business is nonsense; I well remember it from when I MC'd the "pet auction" at EF. "Real" auctioneers have gotten a handle on it; it's a good idea to take a page out of their book. Just watch a few antique auctions in your home town, you'

As i wanted to say: at most cons there is the general rule that bid increase should at least be 5€, once for giving other interested people the chance to win on the limited sheet (5 spaces at ours, 10 at EF if i remind right) before it comes into the auction, and also to be fair towards the artist. sometimes we have pieces you totally say "what, 20 € for that masterwork?" and winning it by 20 or 21 would really be a shame as the artist sometimes only calculates the costs for the pic.
Anyhow... your comment seemed unfinished, and if i may say: here are no antiquity-auctions held ;) (only shops here, i live in an ooooold landscape ;) )

what complete and total scumbags. They obviously don't realise "Or have the brain cells to be able to understand" that they can be held legally responcible for their actions. It's completely disgracefull and 100% unacceptable. -.-

I do have discussion points for any Convention Organizers out there...


1) Do auctions require preregistration? -- I realize a lot of the concern might be about the paperwork and administrative overhead of collecting individual information. In addition, there are information handling policies that would need to be implemented, which can be a bit of a burden on the administrative facilities for any convention or gather, but there are plenty of templates for IHPs and forms are simple to generate.

However, what if preregistration forms were used and provided for people to fill out (and/or submit) before the convention? While electronic is good, you can also have digitial forms people fill out and submit (validated by state/federal ID) with their information before the con or during badge pickup/event registration. There are advantages to both the paper and electronic methods, so which works best for a convention would require discussion by the Administration of the convention.


2) What about treating winning as giving a person an 'option' to take a piece of art -- instead of absolute acquisition -- within a specified amount of time? -- In short, a 'winner' needs to make arrangements with the Auctioneer within a specified amount of time to pay for the artwork (say an hour or half hour), otherwise they lose their option on the art. Were an Administration to implement this, a bidding history should be kept, so that should the 'winner' do nothing,' then it goes to the second highest bidder, and so on all the way down the chain.


3) How is payment generally negotiated? -- I would imagine that most auctions that have the fewest problems require people to have the ability to pay up front. Some of this ties in to item 2) above. While I'm sure the Administration wants to extend the auction to as many people as possible, I'm certain there is a happy medium in terms of handling (such as how PeterCat said the convention they work for effectively places a 'lien' against someone's badge, still pays the artist, and then collects when the person tries to pick up a badge, effectively acting as an 'Art Broker' in this case).


I'm generally throwing these out there for consideration of people who actively work convention administrations or who are organizers (and as points of constructive discussion). If I've repeated something someone already said, I apologize.

...which I forgot

4) Is there a Terms of Auction Participation that's available? -- In short, how are people being kept liable for essentially flaking out? If there is an Auction Participation Agreement that needs to be part of the registration sign-off (or even for just walking into the room), that gives the Auction Organizer more leverage to even take legal action for bailing out. Unfortunately, an auction bid is only a legally binding contract if that's stated beforehand. Adopting policies that support that notion may help reduce the issues with lost/no-show-no-claim bidders.

The answer is,

It depends on the event. As a breif Rundown, there's two common ways to do bidding.

1) Your badge number is your bidder ID
2) You get issued a unique bidder ID for this artshow when you sign up. And it's secret.

Here is the pros/cons for each. Each convention art show lead chooses how they want to do it on their own view.

1) Badge number = Bidder id.
* Pro - Bidding is easy for people to do, and remember. Just write your badge number down.
* Pro - No hassles of bidder stickers and no worries about running out of them,
* Pro - People can feel free to go in the show and bid without 'restriction'
* Pro - Ease of signup will likely result in more bidders, and possibly more money for the artist.
* Con - People can accidentally forget to sign the art show sign up paperwork, and you'll have no agreement from them
* Con - People can look at their friends badge, and 'prank' them by making them bid on something

2) Issue bidder stickers
* Pro - Bidders MUST register and sign the agreement in order to bid.
* Pro - No one knows who is bidding on what, unless the bidder doesn't mind, in which case they can attach their bidder sticker to their badge.
* Pro - Prank or false bidding is mitigated by bid stickers, without the sticker you can't bid.
* Con - The registering as a bidder process is a stumbling block for people who want to bid and could reduce the number of bidders.
* Con - Bidder stickers can run out and you have to check with artshow staff for new ones. (Hassle)




In regards to your other points

1) Most art shows require you to be a registered attendee to bid
2) Making people pay for things as they bid is problematic, because they could have things that didn't go to voice auction to pay for, and people want to pay for everything at once. (Which they can't do if there's more pieces for auction and your making them pay instantly)
3) most auctions make you pay before you take anything, but that doesn't stop people from not coming back to the show to pick stuff up.
4) There are terms agreed to, but see above as in the version 1 someone could bid without knowing there is terms or other people could prank other people and bid.

Doesn't the piece then go to the next highest bidder?

The piece can be offered to the next highest bidder, but they can at that point back out. It's as simple as saying, "When i found out that I lost that piece, I moved all my bidding money over to another piece" so they in good faith bid higher on another piece because they knew they lost one they wanted. As such, if we offer it to them they can take it or leave it but certainly they're not required to. Also, by doing the offers backwards down the chain until someone takes it, means that it might be months before the artist gets their piece back because we're still trying to track down someone who will buy it.

Very true. Good point.

something what would interest me,
if going to the next highest bidder which money count if there are only the two bidders the highest ammont or the ammount before the other overbid you and the biding run between this two started ?

I think in all fairness, i would determine the 'correct' bid between two bidders, to be the highest bid before the deadbeat got involved in the bidding. So if the deadbeat kept bidding up and up and up, All their bids would be cnacelled not just the highest one.

Obviously, liability falls on the convention to track down the bidders and you will be paid in full for your artwork. But it definitely sucks when someone doesn't pick up their art at the convention and the staff has to jump through hoops to track them down. Hopefully, the staff will be able to track everyone down, charge them shipping and the pieces will be off to their new home soon enough.

Con ban. Easy.

I totally agree with you. It's unfair to everyone else that may have truly wanted those unclaimed pieces, not to mention the artists that put time and effort into them. On that same note, I'd like to share a little story of my own regarding art shows.

At RMFC, I bid on a small piece that was part of a series of 4 (relating to the four seasons). Someone next to me at the art show badgered the fuck out of me simply because I only bid on the one piece and not all four. I didn't want all four, as only the one was really appealing to me. They were individually offered for bids, so I had no obligation to bid on all of them as a set. I told the badger that I didn't want all four, and that if he wanted them HE could bid on all four - and walked away. Purist douchebags can bite my shiny metal ass.

Back to your subject at hand, I loved the pieces you've offered at art auctions. Alas, I cannot pay out the high bids they often command. You certainly deserve what they fetch.

I dunno about anyone else... But I would've included a clause that set a time limit on how long the "winner" could take to claim the prize and pay for it. Since many rely on the money from the auction, it's not fair to make them wait because some jerk decided to play a mean joke. If they don't claim in in a "reasonable" amount of time (determined based on situation), then whoever had the next-highest bid should be contacted and asked if they still want it for their final bid instead. Just kinda makes sense to work it that was to me...

I don't know how rainfurrest handles siturations like this, but most of the art shows I've worked on, the first choice is to contact the bidder. Oftentimes, it was an inadvertant mistake of some sort by the bidder. They thought they got overbid, or they just forgot that they had bid on that one because they lost the slip of paper they wrote down their bids on, or had to leave the con early, or a dozen other scenarios. In most cases, the art show staff contacts them, and they send in their money plus the extra to ship the artwork.

Sometimes it was poor judgement on the bidder's part. Their roommate left the hotel before they did and stiffed the entire room bill onto them, and they had to cough up twice as much cash at the front desk sunday morning. Or they didn't budget their money wisely, not keeping enough in their wallet to pay for what they won. Or they bid up their friends artwork and got stuck with the winning bid they don't want to pay. Or dozens of more scenarios. Again, they are usually pretty embarrassed about this, and make arrangements to make good, or allow the previous high bidder the option of getting the piece, and them just payi8ng the difference.

Sometimes we just dont know. they disappear from fandom, never to be heard from again. Sometimes the previous high bidder is offered the piece, sometimes the artist gets the piece back, sometimes the art show makes good and resells the piece to someone else.

Sometimes you have malicious and or fraudulent bidders. Who never intended to pay. Those induhviduals need to be carefully watched at any future art show, and required to put down a cash surety before being allowed to register to bid in the art show. Cash surety should be the amount of dollars they stiffed the previous art show for, plus 100% of the total amount they currently have at bid.

If the amount is large enough, the art show may choose to sell the debt to a collection agency.

Thanks for the information. I'll keep those in mind.

Yeesh... I'm not sure how long ago the show was, but hopefully they ran out of money and intend to pay soon. The whole "for fun" aspect of this is what really irks me. There is such a HUGE amount of people who don't even consider artists worthy of a good check, let alone professional.

I remember a few years back, soon after college in 2010, I received an email from a professor linking me to his blog, where he wrote an essay going against a law that was sure to pass if it weren't for us artists. The piece of legislation wanted to make every single work classified as "art" or any of its derivatives, to automatically belong to the public. In other words, artists wouldn't be able to sell their work for profit, and would only be allowed to get hired for services, or freelance. And even if it were work for hire, or freelance, the work would still belong to the public! Copyright and trademarks would go out the window. The law naturally didn't pass, since it makes no sense what so ever, but the idea is still there, and the amount of people who supported it was impressive, to say the least.

We already have an intensely uphill career, and they wanted to make it even steeper. But hey, we knew exactly what we got into. I'm impressed by your behavior and response to this... I would've probably gone berserk and caused havoc, but I don't have much patience XD

Good luck to you, and in your future endeavors. Hopefully, you'll be able to avoid more situations like these, I know they aren't pleasant.

Bluh... why would someone do that? If it was a more "official" place such as EBay, this would flat be unacceptable behavior, and you'd soon be banned from participating in the future. What is sad, is the 2nd highest bidder may be more than willing/able to pay for what they had bid, so they lose out and like you say... artists get stuck with unsold art, charities lose... everybody loses really, and the bid process loses a certain amount of credibility.

To me, a bid should be deemed as a legally-binding contract to purchase said work for $x agreed upon. If you wish to bid on something, you quite well should have the cash at hand to pay if you win, and be sure you are satisfied with the quality/style of work when you bid. I think it's sad that stuff like this went on. Perhaps the folks trying to contact the winning bidders, if the winners don't come clean in some set amount of time, 2nd highest bidder should be allowed opportunity to purchase the artwork for high bid price, and unwilling winners be promptly tied to posts near antbeds whilst coated in honey.

Not to necro a thread... but did this ever get resolved in any way, Rukis?