Discussion about Non-Consent & Misogyny (Serious Business)
12 years ago
Okay, been wanting to write something like this all day, finally going to take a shot at it. Apologies if it comes off as long-winded or anything. Also, as the title says, this isn't a light-hearted topic, so don't expect that. Potential trigger warning also, given I'll be talking vaguely about ideas around rape. So. Here we go then. Oh, I'm also assuming that if you're reading this it's because you're watching me, and therefore know that TF = TransFormation, and the TF-fandom being, well, people who like that sort of thing. Anyway.
I realised I wanted to say something when I was working on my latest story and it struck me it was about TF'ing yet another attractive young woman, seemingly against her will. Now, I've got a tendency to work in the realm of what I'd call "magical consent"; which is to say that while the girls often don't explicitly consent to being TF'd - and sometimes don't consent to having sex - they always enjoy it more or less immediately, and, given the option later on, they wouldn't choose to do anything differently. As fantasy, that works. It can be hot to have someone being overcome; being overwhelmed by both the TF and all-consuming lust despite their best efforts to resist, and having them explicitly consent first can get in the way of that (hence why in the Shortcuts series, which is all about a woman very emphatically consenting to be TF'd by a SCIENCE! guy, the actual TF scene involves them basically roleplaying what it would be like if she was unawares and hadn't consented).
My point is, as a fantasy, that can be fine. However, as much as it's fun and fine to indulge those fantasies, something I'm at least touching on whenever I write stories that include non-consentual situations, you shouldn't let those ideas carry over to the rest of your interactions.
I should say, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, and it's not even from anything I've encountered personally. I'm a young, white, straight male - meaningful discrimination or harrassment isn't really something I've faced. But I was reading something on this topic elsewhere (although that was in the context of the gaming community), and I realised that what I was writing risked making the TF community less awesome by setting quiet standards of "this is how it is acceptable to treat women - as sex objects, whether they want it or not", which is not something to be encouraged. Women can absolutely be sex objects if they want - I know some positively wonderful women who happily refer to themselves as sluts, and several men too for that matter - but it's not a role to be thrust on them merely because they happen to be women, nor is it something to be annoyed at them for if they seem to enjoy doing sexual things, but don't want to do sexual things always, with everyone.
So, uh, the women in my stories often are, or become, sex objects, and they want to be, and they enjoy it. Liking that concept as a fantasy isn't bad or wrong. But in real life women don't automatically want that, and if they don't then they in turn are not bad or wrong. On FA I guess this comes down mostly to what it's appropiate to say to other people, either in comments or notes. Try to be aware of the line between appropriate and not, and if you don't know the person then it's best to err on the side of caution. Again, I can't say too much from experience here, because I can't recall getting anything I found offensive myself, but just be aware that different people have different tolerances. And, if I can make an assumption of something carrying over from the gaming side of the internet; yes, it might be hot that there's a girl on the internet doing something that you consider to be arousing, but even if what she's doing is actively making adult material, that doesn't necessarily mean she wants to know about how aroused it is getting you. She might! Some people are perfectly okay with that as a compliment. But if you assume she wants to know, and wants you to talk about it specifically and in detail, then you're treating her as more of a sex object than anything else, and if she doesn't want that then it's not a good feeling to have that thrust onto you. Best not to assume that without good evidence (like, say, you know her already, or she's stated that she's fine with that), and to err on the side of caution. If in doubt, ask, politely, and don't be offended if someone doesn't share your desire for sexual things to occur.
Again, this isn't focused at anyone, or due to any encounter I have had or seen. It's just, for better or worse the TF fandom is one that I'm invested in, and despite writing stories about women becoming and being used as sextoys, I don't want to help create a culture that is okay with casual misogyny or the like. I don't know if that's something that's present, or a risk, or whatever - for someone who says he's invested in the fandom, I really do have very little direct interaction with it, aside from putting my stories out like messages in a bottle and occasionally getting a few comments floating back. But I guess that's the point - given that my stories are my main method of interaction, I don't want to risk them setting a precedent I'm uncomfortable with.
(tl;dr/short version: Non-consentual situations like in some of my stories can be fun fantasies, but I don't want them to accidentally contribute to a negative/misogynistic culture. The TF fandom should be full of accepting people being cool to each other just as much as it's full of awesome stories or pictures of folks bustin' out of their clothes for sexytimes, so just hoping to do my part to make both sides of that equation a reality)
Hope that was coherent, sorry if this seemed rediculously self-evident or anything, and for the length (to those who successfully made it through). Be awesome everyone, hopefully another story from me within the next few days, which, as you might have been able to guess from all this, is about TF'ing someone into an eager sextoy. Fun!
I realised I wanted to say something when I was working on my latest story and it struck me it was about TF'ing yet another attractive young woman, seemingly against her will. Now, I've got a tendency to work in the realm of what I'd call "magical consent"; which is to say that while the girls often don't explicitly consent to being TF'd - and sometimes don't consent to having sex - they always enjoy it more or less immediately, and, given the option later on, they wouldn't choose to do anything differently. As fantasy, that works. It can be hot to have someone being overcome; being overwhelmed by both the TF and all-consuming lust despite their best efforts to resist, and having them explicitly consent first can get in the way of that (hence why in the Shortcuts series, which is all about a woman very emphatically consenting to be TF'd by a SCIENCE! guy, the actual TF scene involves them basically roleplaying what it would be like if she was unawares and hadn't consented).
My point is, as a fantasy, that can be fine. However, as much as it's fun and fine to indulge those fantasies, something I'm at least touching on whenever I write stories that include non-consentual situations, you shouldn't let those ideas carry over to the rest of your interactions.
I should say, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, and it's not even from anything I've encountered personally. I'm a young, white, straight male - meaningful discrimination or harrassment isn't really something I've faced. But I was reading something on this topic elsewhere (although that was in the context of the gaming community), and I realised that what I was writing risked making the TF community less awesome by setting quiet standards of "this is how it is acceptable to treat women - as sex objects, whether they want it or not", which is not something to be encouraged. Women can absolutely be sex objects if they want - I know some positively wonderful women who happily refer to themselves as sluts, and several men too for that matter - but it's not a role to be thrust on them merely because they happen to be women, nor is it something to be annoyed at them for if they seem to enjoy doing sexual things, but don't want to do sexual things always, with everyone.
So, uh, the women in my stories often are, or become, sex objects, and they want to be, and they enjoy it. Liking that concept as a fantasy isn't bad or wrong. But in real life women don't automatically want that, and if they don't then they in turn are not bad or wrong. On FA I guess this comes down mostly to what it's appropiate to say to other people, either in comments or notes. Try to be aware of the line between appropriate and not, and if you don't know the person then it's best to err on the side of caution. Again, I can't say too much from experience here, because I can't recall getting anything I found offensive myself, but just be aware that different people have different tolerances. And, if I can make an assumption of something carrying over from the gaming side of the internet; yes, it might be hot that there's a girl on the internet doing something that you consider to be arousing, but even if what she's doing is actively making adult material, that doesn't necessarily mean she wants to know about how aroused it is getting you. She might! Some people are perfectly okay with that as a compliment. But if you assume she wants to know, and wants you to talk about it specifically and in detail, then you're treating her as more of a sex object than anything else, and if she doesn't want that then it's not a good feeling to have that thrust onto you. Best not to assume that without good evidence (like, say, you know her already, or she's stated that she's fine with that), and to err on the side of caution. If in doubt, ask, politely, and don't be offended if someone doesn't share your desire for sexual things to occur.
Again, this isn't focused at anyone, or due to any encounter I have had or seen. It's just, for better or worse the TF fandom is one that I'm invested in, and despite writing stories about women becoming and being used as sextoys, I don't want to help create a culture that is okay with casual misogyny or the like. I don't know if that's something that's present, or a risk, or whatever - for someone who says he's invested in the fandom, I really do have very little direct interaction with it, aside from putting my stories out like messages in a bottle and occasionally getting a few comments floating back. But I guess that's the point - given that my stories are my main method of interaction, I don't want to risk them setting a precedent I'm uncomfortable with.
(tl;dr/short version: Non-consentual situations like in some of my stories can be fun fantasies, but I don't want them to accidentally contribute to a negative/misogynistic culture. The TF fandom should be full of accepting people being cool to each other just as much as it's full of awesome stories or pictures of folks bustin' out of their clothes for sexytimes, so just hoping to do my part to make both sides of that equation a reality)
Hope that was coherent, sorry if this seemed rediculously self-evident or anything, and for the length (to those who successfully made it through). Be awesome everyone, hopefully another story from me within the next few days, which, as you might have been able to guess from all this, is about TF'ing someone into an eager sextoy. Fun!
Anyway. I couldn't shake the thought that I might be unwittingly contributing to a negative culture, and I didn't want that to be the case. Hence. Hope it comes across like that.
That said, there is a sad lack of common sense in the world, and a lot of people have difficulty separating fantasy and reality at times. Sometimes someone needs to say these things, and I'm glad you were able to do it in such an even-mannered and un-antagonistic way. My Id fursona is a creature that will engage in (almost) any type of sexual activity on the spur of the moment, but he ALWAYS knows (via magical senses) that what he's about to do to a partner is what that partner WANTS, even if they don't recognize it. I'm happy to find such a kindred spirit here.
As for the rest, certainly glad this came across as even-mannered and un-antagonistic. You're right, some times things need to be spelled out, even if it's mostly so that I can feel okay about them, given that it might be something everyone else already knows.
As for your Id persona, that certainly seems fine so long as you're only launching into spur of the moment sexual activity with people who have either consented to that with you, or have demonstrated they're okay with it. If you're leaving comments from that persona on people's submissions that you don't know along the lines of "this is great *sexes you up on account of how horny this makes him*" and waiting for a good reply on that, that's problematic. I have no idea if you do anything like that at all, that just could be an example of what not to do if you don't already know someone's okay with it.
Actually, that's assuming you do that in comments at all; you could well have been saying that it's how you work in stories or RP's which would be fine given people have already consented there. Well, okay, that's an example of what not to do, but you probably already know that? Arg, unless you do that, which you probably don't, then chances are you're fine? Okay, hoping I haven't been a jerk, moving on!
So yeah, you make some good points, and even for those that it's obvious too, a little reminder never hurts.
And also, glad the journal post as a whole came across well. Take that, nervousness about posting it!
Really, we're all adults here (or at least we should be if we are reading the sorts of stories you're worried about ), discerning the difference between real and not real shouldn't be a big thing. But hey... it never hurts to explicitly state "WHAT I WRITE IS NOT WHAT SHOULD BE!!!" just to be clear.
I admit, your way of summarising it is certainly a lot snappier.
Personally, I'm not a fan of N/C stuff. I enjoy at most what you mentioned - someone who may start out unaware and opposed but ends up enjoying it and wouldn't take it back if given a choice.
That being said I kind of feel like the stories in which a person really isn't given a choice what to turn into sometimes leave me feeling... I'm not sure how to put it. It leaves me feeling like sometimes it isn't as good a feeling as it could be because there was an opportunity for something even better that was missed. X3 I'm terrible with words, so I probably didn't say it that clearly. I'm sorry. But don't feel embarrassed, you were honest and said what was on your conscience and that takes guts. Good for you.
Thanks, glad this came across well. I guess I'm not used to making a deliberate fuss, especially when I honestly didn't know if this was a problem in the TF community, but I just figured I didn't want to be contributing to the problem myself if there was. That said, of course, this one journal isn't going to absolve me entirely, I'll probably link to it in future submissions, so it can always be quietly there, saying what needs to be said without getting in the way directly of the actual sexytimes.
It's cool that my treatment of ladies comes across as positive also, that's definitely something I go for. The examples of outright non-consent are generally ones I've included at specific request (like that whole story that was specifically based around tentacle rape, which was very much for a particular friend of mine), for the most part I tend to operate with magical consent, like I said. But, it occurred to me that magical consent can set an even more troubling example, because it's filled with the sort of "well, if she didn't want it she would have said something" or "it wouldn't have gotten this far if she didn't like it" or "she'll like it once she gets into it" ideas which - well, in the real world, are just about the worst. Most people recognise that outright rape is a bad thing outside of fantasies, but those things about magical consent can become startlingly prevalent if given the chance, and I wanted to do what I could to combat that. I think I'll probably link to this journal in future submissions (in case I guess people want more reading with their readings).
Anyway, glad this journal came across well, and also that my treatment of ladies in my stories about lust-filled TF'ing sexytimes is up to scratch!
It's always worth noting that fantasies CAN be problematic. Recognizing it is awesome. Also knowing that it's okay that they're problematic is good too.
So, fantasies can be problematic, certainly, but I guess I was wary of pointing that out explicitly because I don't want to imply that anyone is wrong or bad for having them. That said, non-con is certainly a fantasy that can get problematic pretty easily, hence this whole post. Glad you thought it was a good one too.
Though, you did address it with Thanatos2k. :P
In any case, good message you have here. Thumb up. Angrboda has the ticket there.
I can see that sort of trend in the stories I write, out of twenty-two I have now...I'm pretty sure fourteen can be considered nonconsensual in one way or another. Plus the use of some negative stereotypes. So, yeah, I do agree that the message you are expressing is totally valid and should be spread around. I hope however, that the message is intuitively understood without needing to be said already...
On the other hand, I do write near exclusively for others...hmm...interesting thoughts you are inspiring there.
Personally I prefer risk-accepted consensual and safe, sane, and consensual as a general philosophy for real life and fictional. It is my preferred archetype.
Not to say I have not indulged in the various nonconsensual kinks that are out there, or even that I do not enjoy those kinks. Those kinks are very cool too, and saying that I don't enjoy them would be hypocritical of me.
Anyway, yeah, great message here. You should try and see if you can get it more out there. Plus Hentairo's idea of this as a favorite-able submission might be useful. Stay cool and have a Happy New Year.
And yep, the messages of all this should totally be intuitively understood, and I also hope that they are. But the problem with assuming that while quietly putting things out there that can be read in a negative way is that if no one says anything directly, it can lead people to assuming that it's okay to, well, be jerks. So I wanted to explicitly put something out there to say, hey, don't be jerks. Worst case scenario is I state the obvious and people think I'm being facetious and white-knighting or something for no reason, but hopefully I cause people to stop and think and consider the issues around non-consentual fantasies - as TF can often be - so that people can enjoy them as fantasies while still having a safe space for the community that doesn't involve anyone being made to feel unpleasant by what's going on in the background. That, uh, making sense? I'm doing a lot of writing on this, and I hope I'm not losing sight of my point.
Thanks, also, glad you like the message. I'm still not sure about having it as a submission, but I think I will link this journal in the future. If nothing else, doing so will keep all this extra discussion for those who want to read it.
What do you say when a third person enters the equation? So far it is writer and audience, what happens when you add in client?
I write near totally for others, and I will write near any content. So Misandry and Misogyny are both things that might happen.
As would any possible number of nonconsensual situations and elements.
Are you worried if you are asked to write things of that sort of nature you would be adding to a culture of negativity?
Or is that just what the person wants? That you are sure that they know that it is fantasy. Would you ask if they know the distinction before you wrote things for them?
That's a hard question for me to answer, because the idea of taking a commission like that isn't one I can easily get my head around. I write for me, and often for an intended audience - which is occasionally as narrow as one person, and then anyone else who wants to see it comes afterwards. Which is like doing a commission I suppose, but it's very much shaped around what I want to do anyway, but taken in a particular direction further than I normally would. So, it's hard to consider how having a client would change things because I can't really see myself working in that sort of arrangement at all.
In the end, I guess the important thing is that I don't want to contribute to a negative culture regardless. You can write stories about bad things happening to people - and to be fair, I've already done that - but regardless of the specifics I think the point is to not let that accumulate to a situation where people feel uncomfortable in the culture, by letting those things carry over beyond the story. I'd guess an example would be if I wrote a story that contained a woman getting non-consentually TF'd via sex into a dog-morph, it would be a bad idea to say in the description for it something like "Bitch Gets What She Deserves", because that encourages negative, uncomfortable thinking outside the bounds of the story. I focus on misogyny here because that's much more often the way that happens, like as comes up so frequently in gaming culture, which is what provided the article that originally sparked me thinking about all this.
So, yeah? As Crystala and Feugo point out, the fantasies themselves can be problematic, so if we do indulge them we need to be careful to make sure we don't do so in such a way that risks bleeding through into the rest of the discourse on this site. I figure if I was a woman and I read the TF story I described above, but afterwards there were a ton of people in the comments going "yeah, give that bitch what she deserves!", even if I enjoyed the story, that would likely make me uncomfortable enough I wouldn't want to fave it. So, uh, don't do that?
Those seem like the main things, I guess. It's weird - I'd possibly waver on the second one, but only if the person requesting it was a woman themselves, and that's how they wanted to play things in their fantasy, coming at it that way (or, likewise, any other gender wanting to have it done to their own gender, the implication being they're on the receiving end of the fantasy). If it's that blatant, a sort of "these people which I am not one of deserve to be treated like this solely due to their gender and how they'll be treated is really terribly you guys, just like, the worst, and that's what they deserve!" - that seems like a line to me. I guess even in the fantasies, I'd be not so cool about having it come across like "all women deserve this". Maybe with great big honking disclaimers all over it, and the aggressor in the story not being the least bit sympathetic or empathisable-with, but still, personally it's not something I think I could do.
I am probably going to have to invest in a lot of disclaimers. Because while I don't believe any of that crap, I'd definitely write it if paid to...and if I am paid for it, it can get very, very, very dark.
Great talk. Would love to talk with you again in private later.
Thank you for writing this however.
It's a hard question to answer, really. If some people get off on being raped - to put it bluntly - and we accept that as their choice for a fantasy, then to indulge that fantasy doesn't that mean we have to accept the other side of it too? I think that's what I'm trying to answer, that yes, we can, but only very carefully, very deliberately within the bounds of this optional fantasy, and making very sure the opinions and mindset of it does not leak out to create an environment that is in any way unpleasant.
I hope I've answered this well, and I appreciate you raising this difficult issue.
On a more specific note, I certainly appreciate you not liking my stories because of these issues, but I often found your stories disturbing because of the sheer intensity of the body horror involved, the outright death of the mind in some cases to the screaming beast leaving me rather unsettled. That said, it probably wasn't as distressing because it wasn't presented in an erotic fashion - it was horror rather than, say, torture porn. Even so, I found some stories deeply unnerving - Changes I recall finding particularly affecting - to the extent that I wanted to go have a quiet sit somewhere after reading it. But you're right, if there was an added element to it saying "this is erotic, someone is getting off on the idea of doing this to someone", that would have been much, much worse. I guess I just found that worse than mine because I was comfortable (for the most part) with how I portrayed mine, but body horror to that extent is outside my ken. I'm not sure where I'm going with this - I'm not meaning to equate your writing with mine or pronounce one worse than the other. I guess they just both deal with aspects that need to be considered carefully, but given I tend to add a direct erotic element to mine it can be more problematic, even if I think it's less directly unsettling and scary, hence why I felt the need to shine a light on it directly and discuss it?
Agh, hope that came out well and said what I meant without being a jerk about it or anything.
There is a vast difference between erotica and horror in intention. And I dont dislike your stories in general, its just an element that really disturbs me that you struck directly with your original comments. Its something I myself havent come to terms with.
Sexual identity is one of the most sensitive topics in conversation and never is it as cut and dry as one might assume from reading online message boards. Especially for an up-and-coming fetishist, much of it is still self-discovery and determining what they associate with and what bears absconding from. Forcing the issue upon someone at that point seems downright heinous from my perspective.
However, mutual enjoyment plays a noticeably major role in enjoying even fantasy sexual activity. Pride that you can share your body with a partner that eagerly desires your naked form seems logically more gratifying than taking what you want in my opinion.
Darker, much more frightening things come into play when the subject is unwilling and it becomes a major turn-off, to myself for instance. I can't speak for the rest of the community but the fact that there is much more prominently and proudly displayed consensual pornography while non-consensual is plastered with warnings and disclaimers gives me some hope.