AMEN.

also lol font jokes.

EWWW A GIRL GET OFF MY FA PLZ

KEEP YOUR GLOWING NAUGHTY BITS OFF MY COCKA.

A relevant post on a more general topic:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4246383/

*Hugs*
Some of the most intelligent wisdom I've read in a while hon.
Everyone is equal... no matter race, gender, or sexuality.

Is this a Kindergarten Cop reference?

Yes, actually. +1 point to you, sirrah!

*sighs*

Equality rhymes with Equestria: Tolerance is magic.

You have a point there, well played

...no it doesn't.

But it sounds similar.

Or maybe it's just that they both start with "E".

They both begin with "Equ", but that's not what dictates a rhyme. The ending sound needs to match, not the beginning.

It could be alliteration or consonance or some such term :3

It rhymes when spoken in reverse!

applauds!

I'll have you know good sir that I have both

http://undergroundcharisma.com/wp-c...../fancy-huh.jpg

Normally I don't comment on journals . . Buuuuut I just have to ask: What brought this about? Any entertaining stories of drama and hate? Tell usssssss.

I've been seeing more and more misogynistic posts on the site, reminiscent of the mental blatherings you expect from a kid playing of Call of Duty. It's really starting to agitate me (and quite a few other people on the site).

We kind of are.

At least at the end of the game we say GG instead of "GTFO FASGGOT NOOB I RAPE U"

Must . . See . . Examples . . I am bored. Entertain me with the stupid!

No.

Oh well. People are still funny.

... your icon, please keep it forever.
it fits too well with this entire post, and anytime you just need to tell someone flat out. No.

this is the perfectly matched icon and message.

Unfortunately, I think this is like some kind of 'in' way to behave for a lot of people on the internet. -.-

I think I know exactly what you're talking about, and yes, it's quite irritating -- and increasingly so, each time I see one of those comments.

I half-suspect some of those aforementioned Call of Duty kids are actually the same people making those comments... Which doesn't exactly make things better.

Anyhow, thanks for speaking up about it.

there's a lot more of it than you think, particularly amoug groups of gay men on here. it's sad, really:

good example and my favorite personal rant:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3908319/

a a result of things like this happening, there has also been a significant increase of extreme feminist/anti-male comments as well -_-; someone needs to break the cycle

Sounds like fun stuff. Any other examples for bored and curious people to read?

go take a look at any adult submission with a woman, observe the number of comments and faves. then find any adult submission featuring only males, note the difference X3 what you also may see on the submissions with girls are hidden comments, usually from dramas long since past.

Really looking for entertainment? Find one with like 4-5 guys and 1 female. :P
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9539408/

i think i love you for this

EW DONT GET YOUR VAGINA GERMS ON ME BARRRFF

IM SORRY HANG ON LEMME TURN IT INSIDE OUT

Good because the thought of girl parts is so sickeningly wrong it makes me vomit all over my pictures of cubs being raped and force fed soiled diapers >:|

you forgot about hyper genetalia and herms and bondage.

HOW COULD YOU FORGET.

...because I actually do kinda like herms and bondage x)

Holy shit....... I don't think I've ever seen so many "would be better if it were a dick/guy" in one posting.....

Makes you really fucking hate yourself for being a female..:/...

Your hate is misdirected.

Love yourself whether you're male, female or whatever.
Hate idiots and idiocy. ;)

Every last bit if this.

seeing as i cant think of any more offhand X3

Oh I will. I will. If there are any hilarious or notably entertaining ones feel free to send them my way. I tend to just stay away from topics like this but people being stupid tend to make me laugh pretty hard.

To be honest, your kind of fun isn't exactly a good thing. It's kind of unfortunate, really. I mean, aren't there better ways of making yourself feel better about yourself that don't involve getting enjoyment from other peoples ignorance?

gives you the same kind of thrill as watching jerry springer, honestly.

Best answer. Wait forgot Maury too.

I don't understand how you think I'm trying to make myself feel better about myself. I just think people tend to be really funny when they're being stupid like this. What, does everybody who enjoys comedy and other forms of entertainment do so because they need to feel better about themselves?

as posted below me, go nuts bro:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9539408/

Jesus H christ, whatever happened to people wanting to, you know, NOT act like total horndogs and just be in a monogamous relationship?

those times are gone my friend

GONE WITH THE WIND.

*snirk* I lol'd xD

but dude. no way in hell am I ever being a horndog. I love my fiance. She and I are strictly between one another.

Oh this reminds me of a bit of drama some years back on an old furry forum I used to go to. There's such a double standard, I swear.

Thank you, 'Neer uvu <3

Everyone can, and should learn a little something from this.

So this explains why your avatar is what it is now~!

The problem is there's a systemic trend of passive misogyny in this fandom, due to the concentration of high non-heterosexual males. The fact even you've had to post on this shows how bad it's getting.

Change "fandom" to "internet" and your sentence is equally true. =P

I don't socialize outside the fandom much. That raises a question: is this a level of social misogyny that's permeating Western society? And if so, what's the cause? My theory only really works for any group of males that don't 'need' females: if they're not sexually an interest, then who cares if we insult them, basically. But this implies that it's even more systemic than that, and makes me wonder where this is coming from.

It's the human species in general and the fact that human society is very much this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Western society*

Lots of African Matriarchies.

My opinion as follows.

Society(via the mainstream media) has reduced women to a decoration, and all initial judgements of women to be made based solely on her viability as a potential 'lay' or mate. Look at any older woman in a position of respect, like Evelynn Hammonds. Despite the fact that she's overcome immense opposition, and has a tenure in multiple departments, because she isn't what young entitled men want to fuck, that makes her worthless to them. Even saying that makes my hands shake with so much rage, you have no idea. BY THE WAY, SHE WAS DEAN OF HARVARD.

As for the overwhelming bias of homosexual mysogonists(in the furry community), THAT is something I cannot truely grasp at all. Straight white protestant males, sure, they've all been promised a beautiful woman by society, and are angry that they feel helpless against sexual impulse, whatever, I get it, it's not cool and it needs to change, but it's so biologically inherent that it will take a lot of doing by men who WANT to change that it's pointless to argue it here. But seeing as how the online furry community's mysogony seems to primarily come from gay men, I'm baffled. It was women who worked their asses off for gender equality and working against traditional gender roles in society in the first place. (Not discounting all the massive sacrifices of the black community who catapulted equal rights years into the future and made it possible for women to argue for equal rights in the first place).

Also note Ruth Bader Ginsburg, also a badass. But hey, she's like a gajillion years old so THAT MAKES HER SUCK I GUESS. I mean, fuck that whole 'setting a precedent for equal rights(Something gay guys totally don't need to concern themselves about.. OH WAIT)',

I know this may come off like I loathe guys or gay dudes, I really don't, I just hate the ones who freak out because women are women. There's a whole debate about the changes in what women aspire to in society which I may or may not agree with, but ugh. I debated posting this anyways, I typed it up I might as well.

For what it's worth, I think women deserve full equality, and it disappoints me that some things are as divided as they are.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm a huge supporter of gay rights, despite being so painfully straight it can cause pain to some more fabulous folks :) Equality isn't something that can really be argued against with any competence, IMO.

Dude, I'm gay and the last person to put down women. Despite the fact that my mom wasn't always the best person to me, she worked really hard and took care of me the best she could despite her being bi-polar and sharing a lot of the same issues I have. We weren't the best to each other but I respect her a lot. My sister sexually molested me but despite that, I understand why. She was messed with by an older cousin and the both of us had a lot of issues, a genetic predisposition to depression being one of them.

My aunt took me in and raised me like a son. My grandmother on my dads side helped, too. I had a lot of strong females in my life and despite the fact that my sister abused me, my mom took her regrets out on me (especially the ones involving my dad leaving her), my aunt was very controlling and my grandmother being a bit of a fruitcake, the positives more than made up for the negatives. My best friend, Tink, is a female. I don't hate females one bit, I do my best to help change hearts and minds when it comes to equality issues. I mean..how the hell can people who represent the wide spectrum of gender and sexuality not stick up for each other.

We're all supposed to be in this together, right?

I hate the whole 'ew, vagina' shit just as much as I hate the 'ew, penis' crap.

Sorry if I implied it was all gay guys in the fandom, it's not, it's just a VERY vocal (and aggravating) minority. It's just like ARRRGH. JUDGE ME BASED ON MY SKILLS OR MY ACTS OR MY PERSONALITY NOT ON MY GENITALIA LAKJSDLKAJSLKD

yup

"Society(via the mainstream media) has reduced women to a decoration" THIS THIS THIS

I feel that the women = object/decoration mentality is the same thing that drives the fandom's gay male hate of women, too... "this body doesn't have what I'm attracted to, so it's worthless as a person." Not attracted to it? Fine, cool, move on to another picture. Denying a gender basic consideration as human beings because you wouldn't put your dick in their bits? NOT COOL. So not cool it makes me want to gag when I see comments like that.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by "changes in what women aspire to in society"? I've been seeing a lot of things around lately about women "wanting to have it all" (meaning job + kids), which boggles my mind because... if that's "all," don't family men have it "all" all the time? Augh why is female personhood and ability to handle life still an issue it's 2013

WELL, it might just be my area/socioeconomic group(We're farmers mostly by trade, but I go to college near Wash DC and I see the same thing there). BUT, what I mean is my grandmother's generation was a generation of lady badasses. Where you could still be a lady but HEY LETS HELP TAKE ON THE FUCKING NAZIS. My grandmother was an opera singer, and when WW2 hit she was a manager in a bomber manufacturing plant, welded the shit out of some airplanes. On the other side of the family, my great grandmother was the first woman doctor in Pennsylvania. FUCK YOU she said to convention, and went to fucking doctor school, paid for it by selling beef she grew and killed herself. FUCK YEAH. My mom participated in bra burnings in the 70s and race riots(We're super white btw, so yeah, FREEDOM AND SUCH). Most of the people of these generations correspond(mostly, you've got a few useless 'my husband does this, i live off his paychecks' folks in every generation) to those steriotypes, like every lady over 70 is a fucking badass lady, everyone around 50 is pretty cool and has a few stories. But when I go to college, nearly every woman there is a useless twat who is just 'getting her teaching degree because it's easy' who really doesn't give half a shit about equality "Oh well I don't mind getting paid 70 cents on the dollar, at least I'm getting paid right? TEE HEE" or doing anything ABOUT establishing equality, or just.. idk. It seems like the vim and vigor has gone out of the feminine gender. They're all so enthralled with what makeup they're buying or who's what in cosmo or whatever they're reading, and OH LAWD IF THEY AINT GOT A BOYFRIEND ITS THE END OF THE WORLD. Bunch of retard parasites I tell you what.

Stupid girls reinforcing stupid steriotypes about women, it's like they enjoy being a characature. IDK.

I agree. "KIDS AND A JOB IS ALL" is the pinnacle of disrespect. That implies you can either have children or a job, or that somehow women who have a job should want nothing else, because "Hey, we've given you kids AND NOW you can have a job.. that pays 3/4 of what we pay men, but hey, it keeps you busy". I don't know, it always implied to me that beyond having children women shouldn't expect much out of life, and that by having a job men are doing us a favor. I'm sure all the single moms out there think it's a HUGE favor, jesus.

Oh! I noticed that when I was in college too, to an extent, and I was frustrated by it as well. I mean, it's one thing if a woman is just very femme (I'm not, whatevs), but if she doesn't put any thought into the state of the world and society and equality issues because she's too busy gluing on fake eyelashes, she's just buying into the "women are decoration" mentality and making it harder for those who still have to fight to prove that women are just as much people as men are. As you said, the media is a big part of this - if most of the role models for women are caricatures, so will its most diehard consumers become. I really hate when women buy into this so much that they back up misogynistic men. The entire situation is incredibly frustrating.

And you said it. It baffles me how the "having it all" concept or the idea that women are mainly for having kids have held up so long when both ideas are so fragile. As a woman, I have a perfectly functional mind and body. I can think, reason, and analyze information. I can be creative, I can do physical and mental labor, I can choose between changing the world and lounging around on the couch. I am not lesser in any of my faculties than a man. Yet the reasons for treating women as less and considering them incapable today tend to come down to "you menstruate/PMS," "you're physically smaller and weaker," "you are too emotional," and even just plain old "you have a vagina and not a penis." I'm pretty sure your welder grandma or your doctor great-grandma (who sounds the coolest by the way WOW) didn't give a damn about any of the above. If we get shit done, it shouldn't matter. :|

It's a big reason I love the 'plus size models', because they put so much emphasis on their backgrounds, personalities and careers, lifestyles, etc, that it's easy to see THESE ARE PEOPLE. Unfortunately, lots of guys ignore them because "LOL FATTIES" mentality is so pervasive.

WE HAVE SO MUCH TO CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY. And women who have positions of power, doctors, scientists, lawyers, etc.. if they aren't hot, are immediately disregarded because they aren't "worthy breeding material". OMFG. LET ME STERILIZE MYSELF RIGHT THE FUCK NOW to avoid having to deal with POTENTIALLY being considered worthy breeding material. If it means never going near some of those jerkwad walking steriotypes, jesus fuck. Women are different than men, OH MY GOD. We have smaller bodies and slightly smaller brains(albeit with MUCH more surface area, GO GO GYRUS SULCUS I LURB YEW), although that's just the median really, I'm 6'1, and I have a 6'9 lady friend who is also a badass(She's air force and welds planes.. hmm, there seems to be a theme here with lady badasses). I also know guys who are 4'11 and 5'4, so the median doesn't really mean much, besides a deep-seated need for most men to pair with slightly smaller women(I think this stems more from social factors than biological ones, but I don't know, I've never been a man.. any men out there want to give their opinion on this?), and for most women to pair with larger men(Definitely a biological throwback in my opinion). I never bought into the 'women are more emotional than men' bullshit. I think society brainwashes guys into that whole 'boys dont cry' bullshit, and then they get bitter and resentful(Who wouldn't, being unable to enjoy a good cry in the shower now and then?) and take it out on us verbally because they're angry. Just my theory, I don't study gender differences in society(Just physiologically) very thoroughly. I don't know, I'm in med school, my friend just got her doctorship big fancy papers and coat thingy, I mean we're definitely getting into the workplace more and more, which is a good thing, but a lot of women are willing to sacrifice(and men, too, for that matter), the feminine for a career, is it worth it? I mean, society is driven by ignorant 60+ alzheimery old men, is it worth catering to their sensibility to claw at the golden calf of equality? Society needs the feminine, we just need to work on making it LESS about being a vapid twat, and more about being nurturing and soft, BUT STILL BEING A FUCKING BADASS.

OMG don't even get me started on the modeling situation. What does the "plus" even refer to in "plus size models"? Bones plus actual muscles and healthy fats? It's so insulting to call models who look like average women something that operates as a not-even-veiled euphemism for "why aren't you a skeleton?" ugugugugugh

We as a society have the most convoluted approach to women, geeze. We're supposed to be fuckable-looking but also not be too feminine in the workplace? How about we just do whatever we do while we contribute and nobody throws a fit about our sex/gender or even treats it as relevant to performance? You'd think it was rocket science.

Personally, I feel that the "women are more emotional than men" thing hurts BOTH sides that way! Men get stuck feeling like they can't discuss their emotions without being considered weak or wussy. I don't know about other people, but growing up, I was not a girly girl, and I picked up on that mentality unintentionally. To this day, I hate when I cry and get extremely embarrassed if I end up crying in front of even one other person because I fear them perceiving me as not able to keep my shit together - in a way, I suppose, as being too emotional and feminine. Which is several problems in one basket: emotional expression is healthy and should not be discouraged, especially because of gender; emotional expression OR gender should not be associated with weakness or inability to handle life; being feminine should not have to feel like a bad thing even for women like me who just aren't very femme. Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we make these weird, unnecessary gender ideals and limits and expect people to conform when they're overall detrimental? A functional society has a lot of roles to fill - some nurturing, some badass, some of both or in between. It should be enough that we do what we're able to contribute.

GOD tell me about it. I really loved Dove's "natural beauty" campaign, too bad it got shit for coverage :/ I don't understand why the standard of beauty is "0% body fat plus harmful body alterations". Again, the fucking media. While men can bitch about hot guys all they want, most women don't have unreal expectations about the kind of guy they want. WELL, maybe those vapid useless hunks of too much mascara we were talking about a moment ago >.> I don't know if that has to do with how we're raised(because men and women definitely have different growin's up). Or maybe it's yet more that can be blamed on the mainstream media. Which is frightful, given how much MORE influence the media has on us these days, with the advent and commonplace usage of the internet. Although thankfully the internet isn't super inundated with these surreal standards of beauty. For now(PROTECT DEM INTERNETS RIGHTS).

I'm the same way, although I think we've got generations of women's lib working against us, simultaneously as all this media hype.

We have to be strong and independant, but not TOO strong and inedpendant, we don't want to look too masculine!
We have to work in the workplace and climb the corporate ladder so we're a success!, but ALSO raise children and take care of our husbands! OH and we can't make more than our husbands, or we'll intimidate them!
We have to be feminine and attractive, but we also have to be able to hold our own and not be too prissy or obsessed with our looks or else blah blah blah blah blah

Fuck this, it's time to go muck the chicken stalls.

I think every post industrial nation moves from the roles of feminine and masculine to female and male. It goes along with our cultures obsession with titles and roles. You HAVE to be part of a group or else how will people know what to think of you(based on steriotypes) when they meet you! BUT STERIOTYPES ARE BAD. God I hate society so much. Labels are super important BUT DONT PUT ME IN A BOX. Jesus christ.
In pre industrialized nations I think the two(masc + fem) are more adequately seperated- you've got appropriate social roles for masculine females, feminine females, masculine males and feminine males. But then something happens, and suddenly it's women vs. men. Hopefully with widespread homosexual acceptance, we can get back to the MF, FF, MM, FM standard within our lifetime. Then maybe we can eliminate all residual inequality. WE CAN HOPE.

The internet is interesting in that it can multiply exposure to that kind of thing or work to repair the harm depending entirely on where you spend your time. But I'll stand up for someone's right to say "something is wrong with women who don't wear makeup" (even though I entirely disagree) rather than lose the fight for internet rights. That one's going to remain complicated for the forseeable future,

I just really hope we can start to get to a point where we recognize gender and sex when it's relevant but otherwise just treat each person like a person first. Labels can be useful (self-definition) and harmful (stereotyping). When a person is outside traditional categories or roles in many respects, people generally really DON'T know what to think! It can be hard to make friends when you're "abnormal" like that because the average person would rather pick and sort from several boxes than bother getting to know someone who doesn't fit in the boxes. But I think I'm kind of going off in a different direction here, heh.

HOPE!

PERFECT EXAMPLE HERE http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&a.....;v=seQPFJlofJs

Beautiful girl "needs to lose about 10 lbs" but a large guy "looks great, dont let your woman talk to you like that"

FOR CHRISTS SAKE

Yeah, I was thinking about that kind of thing too when you mentioned the models. Women have to be this one "perfect" body shape, but variety is OK for dudes? And "your woman"? FFFF :|

Racism...among furries? THAT I have not seen. o.o

Fair enough. The female thing is the one that's REALLY out there and in people's faces, though. Just because some guy is gay and not attracted to girls, it doesn't excuse insulting and demeaning them, often in the same way you described for racism.

Furries are human, dude. Just because you're in a fandom doesn't mean you stop being human. Furry =/= separate species/gender/race.

Racism is a learned behavior, not an ingrown trait.

Right, that doesn't change the fact that our culture is very much skewed the way it is. I'm not saying that it excuses it, just that it's not just the furry fandom, it's society in general.

I'm just saying that I don't see that much racism in the small circle of people I hang out with. If it's there, I don't notice it.

It happens, just a few days ago I saw someone declare that copyright was the same as calling people of color racist names, cos that doesn't trivialise racism at all. :\

...there is so much stupid with that idea that it hurt my head. As WELL as trivialize racism. x.x

What amazes me is how much of the time people don't even seem to think shit like that is a problem or see how stupid that sort of argument is. You can often hear crickets when someone says something that ignorant, but if someone goes "That's a ridiculous comparison and highly problematic", it's dogpile central as everyone else excuses the original ignorant comment and lambasts the person who challenged it for being "over-sensitive" or "ridiculous".

Someone on my watch before was a white dude who called someone the N-word and then made a giant explanation of why he wasn't racist when throwing it around, while making sure to drop the n-bomb as many times as he could. He said that since he uses the word towards everyone that's bad, suddenly the racial connotation is gone! Even though I pointed out to him that people aren't going to magically know how he's saying it, and he lives in a place where people still get lynched or murdered for their skin color. |:

N-word's not cool. :/

It's not, and there's easier ways to get around it.

If I even have to talk about it (Like the title of a song) I call it the nuh. Even then it wouldn't be cool to call someone the nuh, knowing what it's supposed to mean.

In general, the idea of racism among furries just boggles me. I mean, we have a mix of different SPECIES characters that tend to get along, but we're gonna make fun of our real-life selves because we have different skin color? That's just so far beyond my comprehension in some ways. x.x

I've been called a nigger plenty of times by furries. :T

This makes me sad.

Seriously, I've never used that word as an adult to describe any real person (I said it once to describe a bastard on CSI, but I was really mad at some shit he'd done and tried to excuse, and the only person in the room was my boyfriend). It's not a cool term to use, even within the demographic it targets. Which might be part of why people think it's socially acceptable.

Either way, not cool of them, and I'm very sorry to hear it.

I've been called a nigger online by a furry too, but I never get bothered by it. Because well think about it, one, people who use nigger online are the same people who would never day it in real life to a real black person, for one. And 2, the idea of some guy in fursuit walking up to me and going "Your a nigger" with huge fuzzy furry paws pointing at me is hilarious. Furries tend to think people take them as seriously as they take themselves.

I'm so sorry, Kayla-na. I think I've seen some of that happening while lurking around. D:

its no shock that humans use the derogitori term for an african ethnecity.

Agreed.
The timing of this post is so perfect. I just passed by the reg line at FC, and sure enough, there was a guy wearing a t-shirt that said "Trust nothing in skirts". I've noticed a huge trend of "ewww, girls are gross" in fandom too. What is this, second grade again? I bet I could walk through through the FC Con space stark naked, and no one would look!

Well, looking or not is beside the point. The real issues is a lack of respect from these gay men towards women. It's not just that they're "gross", but they think that women can just be a joke to them because they're not part of their lives.

Wow... that's really rude...

Don't trust Scots?! The bastard! HE SHALL PAY BY MY ANCESTOR'S RIGHTEOUS FURY! *rageface*

But yes, plenty of people are acting in a fashion that is... rather unbecoming with regards to that. Why? I couldn't necessarily tell you. Probably an answer far more complex than I have time to research or articulate. You could probably get a PhD out of exploring an apparent rise in, well, not sure it's misogyny but it may well be? That term comes with a lot of very particular parameters which I think have always applied to at least nominally heterosexual, straight males. I could be wrong, though, with the demographic that this attitude is coming from.


Anyways, yes, people acting like it's grade 2 and name-calling and being jackasses.

Late response but if I were you I would have drawn him an awesomely detailed giftart of a crossdressing femboy...then pretended to notice his shirt and say "Oh, nevermind" and tear it up. >:3

Defacing art is NEVER the answer.

Oh man he better take that shirt off before I see him. *rage*

Wow I wonder if he realizes that plenty of MEN crossdress into skirts and dresses....

I wouldn't say...no one.

I see this around but I think it's a bogus explanation, plenty of gay dudes are fine with women and plenty of straight dudes say things like "bitches aint shit"

yeah...it bothers me when I see someone discriminate based on sex (like a comment on a straight picture and it says "Oh ewww boobs"). Its annoying, especially considering they'd be the first to flip out when discriminated against.

Instead of discriminating against others, how about respecting one another instead, mmkay? Mmkay.

Word, though I'm not a big fan of verdana.

EW VERDANA DO A HELVETICA VERSION

This, this, this.
The difference between "men" and "women" is vast, because they're all social differences. Has nothing to do with parts between the legs. I think it's just a terminology mixup on Dragoneer's part, though.

Still, the message here is a good one. We're all people, no matter what we identify as, OR what genitals we have. If we're treated differently for any reason, it should not be because of that.

This is true, and no disrespect intended to the transgender community. I updated the journal to reflect that.

Treat others as you would like to be treated.

That holds true, until you get to S&M.

That's why you always have a safe word. :P

LOL! True. Though what Neer here is talking about is more along the lines of day to day things. Not fetishes. Yes some of us like being treated like a bitch or are into pain is pleasure.

:O ohhhhhhhh I knew something seemed different about those gurlz

"On FA, we're all 10pt Verdana. " - :3 <3

Fuck Verdana!

ALL HAIL COMIC SANS! *flame shield up*

Thankyouthankyouthankyou.

I cannot tell you how many times I have gotten nasty notes, emails, IMs, and comments from furries that want to hate on me for dating Carrot, a formerly gay dude who realized that he is in fact pansexual (or bisexual for people who can't wrap their minds around the idea of someone not caring about gender). We've been together roughly three years, give or take a few months, and I STILL get rude comments for "stealing him away from the gay community" and "forcing him to stop posting gay art". I did neither of those things. I fell in love with a man who loves me back. Fuck me, right?

We get a lot of nasty treatment as a couple, and it astounds me that a culture as huge and generally positive as furry can be will happily say out of one side of their mouth, "Support marriage equality! Everyone has the same rights! We should all love one another!" and then "Fuck you for cutting off my gay porn source to a specific character! Your personal life choices are wrong because ewwww, vaginas! Hetero couples are DISGUSTING!".

Thanks for posting this, Neer. I don't know if it'll change anyone's mind, but it makes me feel more at home on this site and in this community. <3

I have absolutely nothing against the gay community as a whole, am pansexual myself, and have a lot of LBGT friends. But in all the years I've been in the fandom and have been surrounded by/interacting with gay males on the internet, I have come to see that those who are extremely vocal about their right to be gay are very very hateful towards females and male/female couples, and I can't wrap my head around it.

I'm thinking it's probably an insecurity issue. Heterophobia, as it were. Like homophobes (or all public hate), it's generally due to a fear that they might come to like the thing they've been disliking, and since they've been public about this dislike, having to come to terms that they might actually feel differently and have everyone else find out about it is a very perspective-shattering thing. And people don't like to find out they're wrong or have been wrong. So they reinforce this dislike more forcefully.

I'm sure there's some lesbians who do the same thing, but I've never met any of that type, so I assume they exist in lesser quantities.

People forget something.

They have the right to be gay, but they don't have the right to be dicks.

Very true indeed.
People like that (in any social group, not just gays) believe that "free speech" exists solely for them, and they'll try to force their opinion on you without even acknowledging yours.

oh trust me, there are some lesbians out there who are just as bad.

I did say that I'm sure they exist :P

i know X3

it's just this never ending cycle of

______ insert sexist comment from gay guy about woman

woman: OH YEAH...WELL...IM GONNA DO THE SAME THING.

Oh trust me when I say, that I have way better experiences with gay men than women. I dunno what it is but usually lesbians around where I am are assholes for no reason. The gay men at my job sweet hearts the few lesbians we have are jerks mainly to the gay men though. =/

Me I keep an open mind lol I don't love for genitals though XD I just wish this gender war would end, its been getting bad on FA and it bothers me to see it. Gay, Straight, male, female, blue, alien, swamp monster can't we just hug and live together peacefully?

The difference between men and women is notable here. There are probably an equal amount of lesbians who hate on heteros and men in general, but the difference is that women are less confrontational with their ignorance. Instead, they post things on their own angry blogs or within their own communities, so the hatred doesn't get back to the person in question in many cases. That's the only reason why it seems lesser.

This is definitely true.

Mostly, it's those particular types of communities that foster the hatred that may not have been present in a lot of the individuals before they became involved in the group. Herd mentality and all that. Discovering that you're gay, and the first supportive community you stumble upon are all heterobashers, you start to think like them, whether it's just for their acceptance and approval, or the constant attitude present changes your own way of thinking. And it's hard to break out of that when everyone around you is reaffirming it.

Sorry, I tend to over-psycholanalyze things :I

You forgot that women don't have institutional power against men, whereas men do.

So the worse a woman can do is to say something mean and prejudicial about men. Men can do a lot worse to women.

In this day and age, not really.

Proof please.

I can ask the same of you.

The web is littered with evidence for my position, the only places for "evidence" of yours are MRA sites and nobody who isn't an MRA believes their crud.

I'll need clarification on what exactly your position is.

What do men do to women that they can't do in return?

In terms of abuse? Reproductive coercion, men are not subject to constant sexual abuse, suggest you look up the everydaysexism group on twitter, the things they tweet about rarely if ever happen to men.

In terms of privilege and ism.

Society does not constantly sexually objectify the bodies of men. Men are presented in a wide variety of roles, women are presented in very few, and often sexualised for male consumption even when there is no need for them to be.

Society constantly devalues work considered to be "women's work", as a result women make about 80 cents for every dollar men do, and minority women make even less.

Female on male rape is extremely low, the majority of sexual violence is committed by men on women with male on male a close second.

Society judges and controls women's behaviour to the point where women cannot win, a man needs to seriously act out to be deemed unacceptable in the way women often are, if our skirts are too short, we're whores, if they're too long, we prudes.

Society contains rape culture which is overwhelmingly aimed at women and children, not men.

There's the glass ceiling. There's the fact that female based slurs have a lot more power than anything a woman can call a man which is gender related.

In short male violence and actions take place within a structure that privileges men, allows them to get away with abuse and disadvantages women, men created and maintain that structure. Women do not have a comparable one of their own in gender terms.

These are all things you're telling me, colored by your own bias, which is subjective and dependent on YOUR specific situation/attitudes in life.
If you have something to prove, link me to examples. Then I can properly counter you, though I think Maskedpuppy already did that for me.

No, they're facts that are easily ascertained by common sense, your denial of them doesn't change that, especially the reproductive coercion one, only trans men risk that one along with women. You can't forcibly get someone pregnant unless they have a Uterus. Biology, suggest you study it.

I still don't see any provided sources from you. I'm not denying anything, nor am I confirming it. I'm asking you for some concrete evidence to support your words and you have yet to give it to me.

I'm unsure what you mean by reproductive coercion. If you're talking about rape, that's not coercion. That's something taken by force. If someone is coerced, that means that they made the choice to submit. Rape doesn't allow that choice.
If a man rapes a woman and gets her pregnant, she then has the choice to abort the resulting fetus depending on her moral stance on the matter.

Given that most people are smart enough to know that one requires a uterus in order to get pregnant, that you are resorting to having to tell me to study something you know I'm already aware of is just you being a smartass at this point, which doesn't help or further the discussion in any way.

What I am asking from you is to validate your points, like maskedpuppy did. I am willing to look at any and all evidence, read, listen, and learn. My viewpoint is not so narrow that I am incapable of looking at your side of things if you just help me out here.

I asked first, you haven't provided.

You do not understand the meaning of the word coercion. Here:

coercion
 
co·er·cion
[koh-ur-shuh n]
noun
1.
the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
2.
force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.

Reproductive coercion is either forced pregnancy, it's usually achieved by things like sabotaging birth control, or refusing outright to use it in an abusive relationship and then preventing the person with a Uterus from having an abortion, or it's forced abortion, ie intimidating a woman into having an abortion, beating her up so she miscarries. Before you try to say that "women's oops men", being oopsed is not reproductive coercion, and furthermore unlike forced pregnancy/forced abortion does not risk the man's life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-ma.....ege-checklist/
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.....sm-definition/

Here's some places to start reading.

I haven't provided because I wasn't exactly sure what your whole point was, and I like to know what I'm up against before I start throwing around things that are unrelated to your point. And I like to know that the person I'm debating against has backing from other sources other than just "Because I'm saying so right now". Which is why I asked for links that support your opinion.

So now that you've given me some links to look at, I am going to take the time to read them. I'll be back later to address the rest of your comment, and your main point, which I understand to be "Men have unspoken privileges that women don't have." Is this right? Please correct me if I'm still not understanding you.

Yes, that's my main point. That as society is structurally built to advantage some and discriminate against others without us recognizing it much of the time.

Do you believe, that if the situation were reversed, with a matriarchal society, that the roles would also be reversed? That women in power would have these unspoken rights over men?

I think it would ultimately depend on the society. There aren't many matriarchal societies and strictly speaking a straight comparison could not be made due to the fact that the few are massively different to patriarchal cultures in many ways.

For the sake of argument, say the current western society. which includes the US, Canada, and some parts of Europe. We're all pretty similar in terms of societal values, government, corporatism/capitalism, etc.

Imagine all the men, both those in positions of power and those who are not, are suddenly switched places with women. And all women, both those in positions of power and those who are not, are switched places with men. Excluding "revenge mentality" as an issue (which it would be were this a real life scenario, but that's another can of worms so we won't go there), how should we expect things to be running ten or twenty years from now? Women still maintaining this power? Or would we slowly start slipping back into a male dominated society?

I'm honestly interested in your responses to me, because I do study gender/sexism issues, anthropology, and psychology, and other peoples point of view can be enlightening. Even if I may disagree with you on certain points, I've still learned things. Despite your reactions to other people in other threads, I thank you for staying civil with me.

I think it would depend on what men did.

I think the biggest issue would be that men would still remember that they had the power and seek it out again, given how many white men are utterly resentful about their unearned male and racial privilege being eroded slightly, I can only imagine how they'd explode if suddenly the world flipped on them and put women in power positions. Not to mention leaving other inequalities intact would promote inequality.

Plus there's the issue that sexism isn't just about having the seats in power. Many women would still have internalised misogyny. Thatcher was a woman, she was awful for women when she was in power. So there's no saying society would be any less sexist to women with women in charge.

Not to mention chances are the women in power would probably be white, straight, rich, cis-gendered, able bodied and overall privileged, which would result in the shafting of minority women.

I've been fairly civil with most people, despite being called a retard among other things. I see no reason for this to be acrimonious so long as you're willing to listen which the others haven't been.

70 cents on the dollar
women are 3 times more likely to be fired than men, because women are viewed as 'replacable'(Apparently a vagina makes us work less hard, funny that)
there are almost no women on any board of directors for the largest 10 corporations(Read: None as of 4 years ago but there might be one now)

Men have control of the workplace, it's a fact. There are lots of SMALL LOCAL businesses run by women, but if you work for a corporation and you've got a pair of ovaries, prepare to be screwed. There's a million other reasons men can fuck with women and we can't retaliate that are workplace related, but if you don't believe that already(I'm assuming you're a woman), nothing's going to change your mind.

Sorry, I had this all typed up hours ago, but every time I went to post it, I saw you had replied on another one of my threads, and I got distracted with those.

Here is my response to the rape issue. Note that at this point I'm not even touching on the reproductive coercion. I'll leave that to a separate post so things don't get confused.

You keep insisting that men are not raped as often as women. How do you know this? You cannot. Nobody can. All the statistics that are out there are estimations based on what is reported, or are, as you said, manipulated to fit a certain viewpoint. We'll never know what isn't reported.
Rape is a very private thing. It's like Schroedinger's cat. It's in the box and unobserved. Is the cat dead? Is it alive? We don't know. You see a man walking down the street. Has he ever been raped? Has he ever raped anybody? That woman there, has she ever been raped? Has she ever raped anybody? We don't know. They aren't telling. If you ask them, your results are still skewed, because you don't know if they're being truthful.

You keep bringing up the statistic that 1 in 4 women are raped. Other people are saying the number is much lower than that. Since I can find online reports of this same statistic, but also just as many of conflicting statistics, we still can't make a determination.
Perhaps it is 1 in 4. Perhaps it's only 1 in 30. Perhaps it's actually higher. Maybe 90% of women are raped. Maybe 90% of everybody is raped. Certainly, some people are persuaded into sex by significant others when they don't really want it, and some people count that as rape even though the person eventually agreed to do it. Because they did not initially want to have sex and refused, but eventually did it only to apease their partner, who used emotional manipulation ("If you don't have sex with me when I want you to, you don't really love me", for example) to get what they want.

But the fact, the absolute FACT is that we will not and can not know the actual rape rate. What we are seeing is only what has come to light, what some rape survivors have chosen to give us. Even if anonymous surveys are given out, there will be people who will lie about being raped, or are not consciously aware that what happened to them was rape, if the above scenario is technically counted as rape.

Please don't think I'm disagreeing with you for the sake of being obstinate. I'm trying to look at the whole issue from an outsiders perspective, which is hard when it's an emotional topic, because that tends to cloud people's judgement and add strong bias. Both your initial points and Maskedpuppies/mine (I'm definitely biased, but I'm putting it aside, and I may even change what I think based on what I find out) may hold credibility, but all the arguments brought up must first be examined, and the ones that can't be proved to support or contradict it must be thrown out. Thus is science. This is a learning experience for me as well.

So the rape argument for both sides of the issue is invalid because it is an unknown variable. Do you agree?

We can, that's what known figures and estimated figures based on studies are for.

We do know that women are a lot more likely to be raped and while men are raped, it's simply not as common.

As I've said, I've read the studies and looked at their methodologies.

That's what anonymous studies are for, an example would be the study that found so long as you don't actually use the word rape to describe an act of rape, a staggering amount of men will admit to being rapists because they don't think that getting a woman too drunk to consent for instance and having sex with her is rape, despite the fact that it is rape.

What you're describing, emotional manipulation and badgering for sex is rape.

Nevertheless, the one in four statistic is the most widely acknowledged and validated by the people who know, and most of the disagreement comes from people like MRAs and they absolutely cannot be taken seriously.

No, it's not, not if you've done your research and actually looked at the studies which are out there. The one in four statistic is reliable and any studies that suggest men are raped as often are either grossly misrepresented or ignore huge chunks of victims, if not both.

In short, the majority of those who know what they're talking about support that the 1 in four is a conservative estimate for women being raped and that it might actually be higher.

Even if we just look at reported rape which we can measure, men only make up 10% of all victims. So even if we extrapolate similar levels of non-reporting, men would still be much less raped than women; especially if they aren't incarcerated.

If we extrapolate that a higher percentage of men do not report rape? It would still not be higher than the known female rape statistics for most numbers. Even if you argued 99% of male rape victims don't report it, 95% of female rape victims do not report, and as 90% of the reported rapes are female victims, that would mean the female rate for rape is still astronomically higher than the male rate.

In short, when you do maths based on what we do know and look at the studies we have, there is no way at all that the amount of men raped is the same as the amount of women raped.

Can you link me to the studies and methodologies you've read? You have my interest.

With the anonymous study, did they do a similar one for women? As in, finding out if women would take advantage of drunk men? I would assume, given the sexual nature of people in general, that it happens, though perhaps not in as great of numbers as men doing it. And then, would it just be because males generally have more libido? If women were consistently as sexual as men, would the numbers be close? If women were consistently as sexual as men, would the numbers of male rape in general go up?

I do know that is considered rape. It's just that a lot of people don't, and it may skew results. It's the sort of rape that rarely ever gets reported, because even the victim might not consider it so.

Well no, of course the male rape number wouldn't be higher than the female rape number, and even if it was, it wouldn't be enough to say they're any different. Are these real percentages you're using, or is this just a "for instance" example? Are we taking into consideration that a percentage of women do lie about being raped? I don't know the percentage, but I know that it does happen.

Who are "the people who know" and "those who know what they're talking about"? Scientists? Statisticians? Someone else?

I need to shoo now, and I'll be preoccupied with work for the next few days, but I'll return to this when I'm able (if that is ok with with you. If not, we can agree to disagree and speak no more of it). If dragoneer deletes this journal for some reason in that time and you are still interested in talking about this with me, my email address is in my profile.

In the meantime, thank you for giving me things to think about and for being a good sport about it.

No, no similar study has been done for women, probably because the incidence of female on male rape is low to start off with and that unless we're talking about rape with an object committed by a woman, most men who are drunk enough for a woman to rape, well brewer's droop means even men who want sex often can't get it up while plastered, and it's hard to achieve penetration with a soft or semi-flaccid penis, not impossible but certainly very difficult.

Men do not have higher libidos than women, that's a mythos that's part of rape culture. The problem there is you're assuming that rape is about sex, most of the time it's not about sex at all, it's about control and power.

The percentage of women who lie is absolutely tiny, less than 1% afaik. Seriously, it's just not something people routinely lie about.

Top experts in the subject obviously, people like those who do the research for RAINN.

As for links,

Why not start with: http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/10.....ricas-prisons/ figures on prison rape, showing the actual reporting rate from surveys of both genders. The incarcerated part of the population while large is much smaller than the rest of the population remember.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

46,700 Prisoners of both sexes were assaulted in jail over their sentences according to one report. The number of women raped each year in the US is over 200,000 according to RAINN.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pu.....pjri0809pr.cfm Higher numbers here with 88,000 assaulted, again this is both genders and women are twice as likely to be sexually assault in prison by fellow prisoners (men are slightly more likely to be assaulted by the guards oddly enough) and still with both genders included it doesn't come up to half the number of women attacked outside of jail each year.

In that study ALL the women's prisons contained high levels of sexual assault by staff, but only half the men's did.

http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventi.....port2010-a.pdf Study on intimate partner violence, including break down by gender, age and a lot of other factors. It also gives a figure of one in two women will be sexually assaulted.

Basically this all boils down to:

“Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives.”

Those are the extrapolated facts and that is the most conservative figure for women being raped, for there to be even the remotest chance that claims of men being raped as often as women being true, every male inmate would have to be raped and then some. The figures and data we have show that the numbers of men raped are nowhere near the numbers of women raped.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't do something about prison rape, since committing a crime should not sentence one to be raped or sexually assaulted. It's just that the fact is, women are overwhelmingly more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted, and insistence that men are, is not only wrong, it means we end up arguing against nonsensical claims when we should be talking about how to stop prison rape, not dealing with men who want to believe total crap.

You're welcome, it's nice to have some intelligent discussion and debate on the subject for once. I'm enjoying our discussion, I find discussions like this sharpen my mind and allow me to hear other viewpoints and to weigh good arguments against my own thoughts and to challenge myself and what I think. An opinion is no good imho unless it's challenged, examined, argued against and for, before being settled on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender
http://crime.about.com/od/sex/ig/fe.....le_pedophiles/
http://www.child-safety-for-parents.....l#.UPmzAif7KUI
http://home.earthlink.net/~elnunes/abuse.htm
http://www.oregoncounseling.org/han.....iolencemen.htm
http://archive.org/details/Bull.Bus......Violent.Women
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u.....dy-622388.html
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/1.....-more-violent/

Are you seriously implying that women cannot in this era give back exactly what they've gotten over the years?

I won't argue that there has been a LOT more violent crime historically against woman by men than vice versa. But now, genders are very nearly equal as far as the US law goes. Any woman can go out and buy a gun, legally or illegally depending on her qualifications and resourcefulness, just like a man. Any woman can buy or rent a car, any woman can go pretty much wherever she wants to go without a man accompanying her.

You could argue that genetically women are inferior, and can't physically "hurt" a man because of size and muscle differences. But you're an idiot if you seriously believe that a woman cannot hurt a man just as badly as he can hurt her, if she puts her mind to it.

Okay, lets start with your links?

Rape by gender? Most of the claims that men are raped as often as women can either been proven to be false, are clear data manipulation or are only theories.

Female pedophiles? Are much rarer than male ones.

Domestic violence? Of course women can be violent. But the site you selected complete ignoring GLBTQ couples, guess male on male intimate partner violence doesn't count as domestic violence for them.

The problem is you're assuming that one person punching another is always exactly the same and ignoring the impact privilege and minority statuses have on the actual impact of such a punch. That's what is meant by women cannot do the same harm to men.

A woman can rape, abuse and insult a man, but she does not do within a structure that privileges her, protects her from the consequences, excuses her, or gives her power over him because of her gender, men do have that structure however.

No, the genders are not equal, I don't understand how you can believe they are. Women still make only 80 cents for every dollar men make, less if they're minority women, and women bear the bigger burden of child raising, buying a gun or a car requires being able to afford one remember. As for women going out pretty much wherever she wants without accompanyment? Spoken like someone who doesn't get harassed all the time, who doesn't get randomly sexually assaulted in public, who isn't told to avoid going out late at night, who isn't told if she's attacked in certain places/times it's her fault for going there.

Whoa buddy, calm your butthurt. I'm not saying that those facts aren't true, though they do need to be read with a grain of salt. The media just LOVES a sexism story. I'm simply saying you're a dumbass if you think that every woman out there is either sitting there meekly in these "horrible" conditions (you're listing the worst case scenerios btw - not all situations are like that) or fighting bravely and gracefully to keep the sexes equal. There are abusive, mean, bitches out there making life hell for certain men. There are cases where a woman can and will verbally, physically, and very violently abuse and hurt a man, maybe long term.

And feminism ENDORSES that. I've had plenty of people try to tell me that if a woman slaps her husband, she's simply being "strong", but a man slapping a woman is just total domestic abuse and sickening. Feminist culture protects women who make men's lives miserable, who are in positions of financial or other power over men and make them hurt for it. I've seen young men and little boys being abused by their parents for doing nothing wrong, and when I ask what they did to deserve it, I've heard mothers say things like "Oh, he's a boy, he'll be fine." "Oh, I just don't want him turning out like his daddy." "Oh, I don't want my boy growing up to be one of those boys who disrespects women - he needs to know women are better than him!" That's sick to me. Feminism is JUST as fucked up as misogyny is.

There are exceptions to every rule, but don't you dare sit here and bitch at me about how women are in this horrible place in society because they just can't do as much as a man can. There are ways to get past gangs that want to rape you, ways to obtain weapons without ever leaving your house, ways to kill and hurt and destroy in JUST as equal a capacity as any man. The method may be different but the madness is the same, and to argue against it only proves you to be the one with sexist ideals.

I've been faced with horrific harassment, assault, rape, two huge domestically abusive relationships, and guess what? I've gone into those situations with an "I can" philosophy. I've actually thought my way through it, and found ways to be the person I want to be, to come to a place in my life equal with any man I'd ever met, rather than sitting back and squalling on the internet like a child who's been told no. Be an adult and make your own damn decisions instead of letting others tell you what you can and can't do. Don't think it's fair or equal? Fight the fuck back and quit complaining.

Butthurt? Because a woman calmly refuting your information is automatically butthurt is she?

The media does not love a sexism story, unless it's the kind they can use to proclaim how non-white men are all dirty sexist savages; then they're all over it.

Actually we all have to live with a structure of male patriarchy, male violence and sexism. The existence of abusive women doesn't change that, just like the murder of Kriss Donald doesn't change that the UK is institutionally racist and people of color endure racism constantly here.

No, feminism does not endorse that. Some women who claim to be feminists might endorse it but they like the minority of any groups extremists are not the whole the group and do not speak for the rest of us; or are men responsible for the hate of MRAs? Do they speak for all men? The examples you are giving especially with the little boys are misogyny in action, not women hating on men. Misogyny doesn't just box up women, it boxes up men to keep the status quo going and yes, it does hurt them as well sometimes as a result.

Feminism isn't as fucked up as misogyny is, because misogyny is built into society, the little boy slapped by his mom, still has male privilege even though he's being abused. It's wrong that he's abused but it isn't a pervasive social abuse that misogyny is.

And you use a sexist word, big surprise there.

I suggest you see a counselor, that much internalised sexism cannot be good for you.

You DO realize I'm a woman, right?

Yes, which is why I said internalised misogyny rather than sexism.

I like you. And I don't often come out and say that to random people on the internet.

Having gone through those abusive situations and still come out with the attitude you have, is just amazing. Because you understand, unlike her, that we all have choices. We can choose to sit and put up with, or we can choose to change our situations and make things better for ourselves. We can choose not to have a victim mentality. The sad part is that most people don't realize they can make these choices, and continue blaming outside stimuli for their own faults.

I wish more people were like you. And I wish you and Carrot all the best.

Thank you, nice stranger. <3 Keep your head up. The world loves you.

You do realise that is victim blaming?

And not every victim can pick up and leave, only someone with no experience of abuse or internalised misogyny would believe so.

Most victims do not remain in situations because of their "attitude", they remain because they lack the support to get out, have been convinced that they deserve abuse, are trapped due to the morals and laws of the country they're in, are somehow in the power of their abuser, or because if they leave their abuser intends to kill them, woman who walk out of abusive relationships are frequently murdered. Some stay to protect their children, or to protect others.

It's easy to criticise from the outside when it's not you the police are blaming and returning to your abuser, when it's not you being arrested because you ran and your abuser lied to the police, when people don't hate you for running from abuse because your abuser is "such a nice person", when you don't fear your abuser showing up on your doorstep and threatening or even killing you.

You're making the assumption that I've never been in any of those situations.

Blaming someone for causing their situation is different than blaming them for enabling it or allowing it to continue. I would never blame a victim of abuse for being abused. But if they stay and continue to be abused, that is a different story.

While many victims remain in those situations, that doesn't mean that there is no way out, otherwise nobody would be able to get out of it, and there are plenty who do. If someone realizes that they are being victimized and at least tries to make an attempt to improve their situation, then they are proactive. There is no situation where one cannot at least TRY to get out of it.

Support is everywhere if someone makes the effort to look. There are hotlines, there are homeless shelters. There may be friends or family members willing to help, and if not, there are amazing random acts of kindness by strangers helping out people in need.

If the country is the problem, seeking asylum in another country with more supportive laws is an option. It happens a lot.

It's harsh to say, but you can't help someone who won't try to help themselves. If someone thinks they deserve the abuse, they won't seek help, they wont' get help. It's not their fault that they came to think that way, but if they can't break out of that mentality, then they cannot be helped unless someone happens to stumble upon their situation, and even then they may refuse help.

If someone is in the power of an abuser, if they keep going back to an abuser, that is a conscious choice they are making. People get out of these situations. It can be done. There are always solutions.

Usually people who victim blame haven't. So have you been in those situations?

Abuse victims do not enable or "allow" it continue. Tell you what, why don't you explain to me how I "allowed" mine given that the police and social services kept forcibly returning me to it?

I don't think you understand the number abuse does on some people, especially from someone they love.

Everywhere, yeah right. I tried repeatedly, got dumped back when the very groups supposed to help me refused to. Help is not magically there of available for everyone. You do realise that sometimes strangers prove to simply be another abuser?

That requires money, running across the border is not cheap, not to mention if you have kids, you may be charged with kidnapping if you take them and many victims would rather not leave their children with an abuser for fear that them leaving will be taken out on the children.

I think you do not understand what happens in abusive relationships or how harmful what you're saying is.

My past situations are a personal and sensitive matter, so I'd not like to discuss it in a public avenue. But I also do know and have friends who have been in abusive families and relationships.

I could try to offer an explanation if you explained your situation to me. Right now I can only make assumptions, and those are worthless. You didn't say whether it was an abusive partner, or if you were under-aged and were abused by parents/guardians. I was merely offering a number of possible solutions to the scenarios you posited.

Strangers as potential abusers: yes. But you are not obligated to any stranger who abuses you, even if they were nice and offered the pretense of help just so they could harm you more.

Again, I cannot comment on your situation, because I don't know it. But the fact that you tried to change your situation (even with repeated failures) means you were doing something about it, and that is the most important thing. Are you still in the situation now? If not, what changed to allow that to happen?

I wouldn't expect you to discuss it in public, you speak though like you don't know, which is why I asked if you could know?

A guardian in my case. I got out but it was not easy especially after they tracked me down repeatedly, and I have scars from it. I won't go into detail since I don't want to trigger anyone.

You forget that often those who have escaped from abuse are vulnerable to further abuse.

My point though is it's easy to blame people who can't get out for reasons you don't know. Each situation is different, and promoting the idea that others are weak or lacking for not getting out does not help anyone, and in fact actively hurts. We generally blame ourselves enough, we don't need others reinforcing that.

Oh of course I never said it was an easy thing. Escaping an abusive situation is nearly always difficult. But see, there was your specific mentality that helped you, even if other people refused to help. You didn't accept your abuse as something you deserved, and you fought it by running away and seeking help even if a lot of that help didn't come through for you. Had you stayed, not tried to look for help, where might you be now? It is obvious to me that despite the abuse, you've managed to maintain an assertive personality (at least online. I can only make baseless assumptions what you're like in person). Have you always been like this, or were you at one point a submissive individual who eventually worked to assert their own personality and make their own decisions?

I've not forgotten. Emotional habits are the hardest to break, moreso than physical ones. It's the main reason why those who are addicted to smoking/drugs/alcohol often relapse when they try to quit. It's not just a physical dependency. The same can be said for abuse victims returning to their abusers. It's something familiar, and change/the unknown future is scary. But you already know this.

I'm not meaning to blame people for not being able to escape if they've actually tried to do so. What I'm pointing out is that it IS a person's mentality that determines what they'll do and how they'll act in a certain situation. Every situation is different, as you said, but even in situations that are exactly the same, two different people with two different mindsets will react differently to that same situation. Some will blame themselves, or accept the blame of other people, and simply do nothing at all. And others decide that they are not to blame and will actively try to change things. The first problem lies with making that mental change. It's very hard and it's true that not everybody can make that shift. All the rest of the problems (actually succeeding in escaping the situation) only come after that first change. And it's also true that not everybody WILL get out of an abusive relationship even if they're trying. As you said, sometimes violence does go too far and the victim ends up dead before they can successfully escape. But that doesn't just happen to those who fight back. It can also happens also to those who do nothing.

But the point I was trying to make, which I did state in the previous comment, and I'll state it again. You cannot help someone who doesn't try to help themselves first, and in the case of abuse victims, many won't, and they have their reasons, such as blaming themselves, as you said, or they feel that it's hopeless, or they just don't see that there's anything wrong because this is how it's always been for them. It's heartbreaking, especially moreso when services meant to help people sometimes refuse to as well.

I didn't mean to spend so much time on this tangent, and though it's deeply connected to the original topic, it neither supports nor disproves it and is an uncomfortable subject. We can drop it if you like.

I don't think there is such a thing as a submissive or an assertive personality. I'm just stubborn as a mule, and have a reedish tendency that lets me weather things a bit better.

The problem is people often believe that people who can't get out are somehow responsible for being abused. I don't care if the person is unwillingly to leave, that doesn't mean they are responsible for what happens.

So the notion of "personal responsibility" tends to end up as victim blaming. It's up to you, I just would like you to understand that it's a fine line between encouraging people to seek help and blaming them for not doing so while ignoring the issues they face often prevent them from doing so.

it's comments like this that 'neer made this journal in the first place. way to fuel the stereotype.

In minor midnight thought; they may also be reacting negatively towards a social/biological bond that they themselves have felt pressured to engage in and conform with in the past or even in the present.

It might be interesting to see if there is commonality between these people's perceptions of females/heterosexual couples and other social norms and concepts.

(or bisexual for people who can't wrap their minds around the idea of someone not caring about gender)

Most bisexuals don't care about gender, either, so it's no that we're "too stupid" to wrap our minds around it. A lot of people just see the label as pointless.

Other than that, damn, that sucks that you and Carrot would get all of that hate.

I didn't mean that bisexuals couldn't wrap their minds about it, I meant in regards to people who go "Huh? Pansexual? So...you like boys and girls?" Pansexual means that male, female, trans, androgynous, genderfluid or any one of the other gender identities are all equally attractive to us. Bisexual insinuates an interest in either male or female, which isn't the limit for a pansexual.

Ugh, I get some notes/emails like that myself, and I very much hate them. Is it so hard to respect an established relationship?

I find it incredibly sick to know that you've been mistreated just for finding someone you can love on, despite sexuality differences. But don't pay any mind towards those bigots! If it helps, I used to think I was gay until I met my current lover :/3... growing up naive, I didn't know such a thing as pensexuality, so... and quite honestly, despite that my preferences seemingly stay along the male side, I admit it fulheartedly when I meet or see an attractive female :3

I congratulate you with your relationship<3 and keep going strong! Never allow the ignorant remarks taint the special thing that you and him have<3

God forbid my girl ever suffers the same. =\

Well said and so true!

Freaking yes....thankyou.

As long as I can still trash-talk about other species.. I'm good.

Disgusting monkeys and rats!

What's wrong with monkeys and rats? o_O

LOL!

I'm like, what? ;w;

I seriously snorted out loud because I thought of you, and then BOOM! There you were. Poor Kayla! D: *pats*

:I

It's sad that in this day and age, this has to be said-- but I'm glad you did. Comments like that bother me too.

Go back far enough, and we're all related in one way or another.

Oops... meant to post that in the main thread.

So gender is only genitalia? I do think that we have ended gender in our modern culture, which was maybe a good thing for everyone. I think we eliminated "female" as a gender, and I think, unfortunately, that we now live in an almost totally masculinized world, people with vaginas and no penises very much included. It would have been better to create a world balanced between the male and female, but after working for two female executives, I don't believe it's true.

No insult intended to the trans folks, and I updated the journal to reflect that. But for the most part, the base difference for most are anatomical.

One gender but two bodies? Seems a bit dull.

I disagree. The feminine is still very strong indeed, what the problem is, is that most men associate feminine with submissive, which is a media-fueled steriotype. There are many domestic, docile women and men who fulfill the very feminine roles needed by society.

Those two female execs you work for never would have become execs if they were feminine, I hate to say. Society prizes the masculine and women have to work many times harder than any man to reach offices of authority, so they likely had to emulate their bosses before them in order to achieve those positions. Plenty of women are feminine(Not myself, but I don't care a lick about society's rules and standings, I just hate makeup and being pushed around), plenty of men are feminine. You just don't run into a lot of feminine people in the mainstream corporate environment, because women are 3x as likely to be fired from said environment(Feminine men are more likely than usual to be fired rather than promoted). So, yeah. It's just your environment.

Well, I think the problem you identified is right on target, but because the feminine is demonized in this society, we're losing all aspects of it in our private lives as well. The "disease" began when woman entered the work world that rejected it, and I think it's being carried throughout all levels of society. And you're right - feminine and masculine can be expressed by both genders, but there's such a hatred of "feminine" that we're losing it entirely. Ah - so we're not losing genders, we're losing the feminine, but if everyone is masculine, then what's left of gender but genitalia, you know?

+fav

It's easy to spot the problem but as for solutions.. I.. got nothin?

Sorry cant, I was taught to treat people as people regardless of sex, race or religion. That including respect as you should get none till they earn it right?

""men have a penis. Girls have a vagina.""

Your ignorance is staggering.

he edited it, he's responded to several with comments such as this saying so. the rudeness of this comment is unnecessary

I was trying to keep it simple. That backfired a bit. =P

There is no such thing as simple in regards to gender.

Oh for god's sake! There's a difference between making some honest mistake with wording and trying to be offensive on purpose.

Because let's be honest here , MOST girls and MOST guys have that plumbing in place from birth. So for someone to make that "horrible" mistake and use the majority as an example is not a crime!

ＹＯＵ ＡＲＥ ＬＩＴＥＲＡＬＬＹ ＲＥＴＡＲＤＥＤ

That's ableist hate speech and I'll sue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk5l748-vF0

screech noise sucks :/

-2 defense

looks like it X3 i am grateful that you've addressed this issue. you'd think a community primarily consisting of people who claim to be so accepting due to harsh lonely pasts would be better about this but...meh.

Forgot your audience.

looking at all the comments and stuff regarding the "lack of thought for the trans community" in this journal...i don't even think that belongs on here. this journal was about unfair gender treatment, not about gender identity. people really need to think before posting things on journals like this -_-;;

Rudeness all around I suppose

and butthurt too it would seem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQvnZOR_oIk

Get over yourself.

CAUTION: SOCIAL JUSTICE ARMCHAIR ACTIVIST. PROCEED WITH CAUTION AND A LIMITED, CAREFULLY SELECTED VOCABULARY.

But, no seriously, I agree to an extent, and see what you mean, but there is no need to get upset and all defensive over a simply mis-communication.

How was I to know it was a miscommunication till it was edited?

By asking? It might be better than accusing someone of something from the get-go.

He's buying in to the message of The Man and his "science" books with their "Biology". Don't believe the hype of that jazz.

High school biology. Here's current biology.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc.....18506X06001462
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/con.....nt/131/12/3132
http://www.nature.com/nature/journa...../378068a0.html
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/co.....18/8/1900.full
http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bufTna0WArc

So peer-reviewed science, due to where it's hosted, is inferior to the opinion you pulled out of your no-doubt gaping asshole. Right.

Your the one being insulted Mr./Ms. Vowel. The link just implied don't believe everything you read on the internet not that whatever your links were (which I'll be honest, I don't really click and read) were about.

It's not like someone couldn't just go and find counter links to counter peer-reviewed science articles to refute each link you posted.

Anyway, no need to result in name calling, what are you 18?

Ok, go find them then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-1daWCZTEY

Gender is just a societal construct, anyway.

Love it when people get buttmad over nothing and miss the larger point.

See above

There are hundreds of comments in this journal.

Thank you! It gets old being attacked for the sex I was born as.

I'm glad to say that I respect just about everyone irregardless of sex, I wont tolerate any kind of abuse of any kind. I may be gay myself but who cares we are still humans! This reminds me of bubblegum playing an mmorpg, and he was talked to by another gay guy and he had the nerve to say that girls are gross, I frankly wanted to jump into that game come out the other end and bitch slap the kid.

But everybody knows 10pt veranda is the most judgmental

DOWN WITH HELVETICA! BURN THE ARIAL!

As long as we dont have to deal with the evil Wingding dinasty

UP WITH COMIC SANS!

Comic Sans ruined the economy and blamed The Printer

Now Imma stop you right there, but Times New Roman is the best for EVER.

do you even Myriad Pro

I do, you wanna type down? I'll meet you on Broadway.

I agree completly

Well said! We wouldn't want those unclean Comic Sans folks coming here, lowering the property values...

No, no, you're thinking those ARIAL folks.

I have noticed in some cases that there are a lot of nasty comments and problems people have with others on this site and I wish you Dragoneer and the other admins would do a better job of dealing with that.

Easier said than done. This website is massive and it's too much to expect them to have to handle it all.

Then they should get more admins to help with that.

I don't think you understand how large websites like this are. No reasonable amount of admins will be able to monitor it all.

Sounds good.

So are we going to do anything about the nazifurs then? If we ignore them over some excuse of 'we just like the uniforms' or some other excuse to justify why they are operating under a (in some cases literal) banner of hatred, xenophobia, racism, sexism, and genocide, then is adding a "just kidding, it was a joke" to misogynistic comments acceptable as well?

Not trolling here, genuinely curious as to the extent of this "respect people" thing.

If the group posts comments, pictures or imagery which violates the site rules we'll take action against them. In the mean time, until they violate the rules, we'll stay neutral towards them. For some, it is just the uniforms. Until a rule is violated though, or their actions cause unrest on the site, they're within the site's rules.

... yeah right , just the uniforms.

no offense but this is a questionable position. I'm not even jewish and I find nazi-fur groups pretty freakin' offensive.

Just having someone glorify the third reich , is .. ugh

I'm not saying I approve of it, but I'm trying to stay neutral towards them until a rule is broken.

What rule is broken in the ToS/CoC that applies to misogyny that doesn't apply to nazifurs?

I mean, the closest I can see is "Please refrain from harassing, targeting or spamming other users of the site, or encouraging others to do so by proxy. Fur Affinity strives to allow users freedom of expression, but asks users refrain from making comments, journals, statements or from posting material which is racist, bigoted, offensively targets a philosophy, religion, gender or sexual preference. Comments which are overly aggressive, threatening, personally insulting or needlessly abusive are likewise prohibited."

Doesn't that pretty much encapsulate the nazifur movement?

To put it another way, would you be ok with a group called MisogynistFurs so long as they used the excuse "We don't really hate women, we just like the word misogynyst", even if they go around identifying themselves as misogynists and wearing/flaunting created symbols, icons, or slogans of misogyny?"

I'm going to say this, and only this:
Having grown up in Germany, having been the victim of a Neo Nazi attack and having spent weeks dealing with the German police as a witness to a murder by our attackers... I fucking HATE Nazis. But what the "NaziFurs" are and what Nazis/Neo Nazis are two totally separate things.

So long as they're not going out of their way to spread hate, or cause intolerance or protest through their action, they can stand.

End of story.

My sincere condolences for your experience.

I do, however, caution you to carefully reevaluate your assumptions with regards to what nazifurs are and are not. It's an uncomfortable topic and it's one of those thin free-speech lines, but it's very relevant to your journal.

One does not have to murder to cause intolerance; some of the most intolerant acts are those done subtly by those who would use excuses and justifications to hide their actual intentions. Sometimes, there is truth said in jest.

You apologized for your wording over gender and sex, being an honest mistake. Others would make that mistake on purpose, then hide behind an excuse, knowing their message still got out loud and clear. There is a corollary with the nazifur movement.

All the best.

its ashame. that intolerancer is a desiease in humans we can'tget rid of without brining the species to extinction.

heck evan if evreyone was the same they would still find ways to make someone inferior.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion as long as they dont break rules

And whatever your opinions may be there will always be others that disagree
everybody has an opinion and most dont let others influence it

And everybody with a variety of interest levels get grouped togetherand
are blamed for others

I like the uniforms :P You can't blame a clothing style for atrocities done by their wearers unless a big aspect of the style is that they're made out of human leather or something.

To agree with you though, if someone just likes the uniforms and has no other positive association with the third reich, they wouldn't join a group called nazifurs. They'd make their own group specific to the uniform, or join another uniform-based group. To be part of that group then claim it's just for the uniforms is a facade :V

Pretty much this.

Let's just be glad the Westboro Baptist Church hasn't arrived. If you are offended by neo-nazis I wouldn't google that.

I'm not ignorant.

People from Russia probably know who these people are.

And as funny as this may sound , neo-Nazi are WAAAAAY above the WBC in terms of offensive.

I don't think so, the WBC doesn't just stick their spoon into common race/religion/societal issues, they get extremely personal. I believe there was a time when a soldier was killed in Iraq from an IED charge and the WBC brought the whole family over to praise this soldier's death at his OWN FUNERAL.

>tries to do a good thing by addressing a common issue
>gets flamed for accidentally wording wrong and not including trans community.

poor neer

It's like forgetting the Alamo. =|

the only Alamo i remember is the food join at Knoebel's Grove :I

Speaking from a Texan raised in San Antonio:

NEVER FORGET THE ALAMO >:(

Yes, but remember it how? As a final stand for freedom against Santa Anna's tyranny? Or as a relic of anglo imperialism?

“We should never allow even the most revered of our society’s ‘sacred narratives’ to be accepted as simple truths, nor to be mistaken for legitimate history.” James E. Crisp, 'Sleuthing the Alamo'

You are so awesomely Texan sometimes. <3

I will give you a miniature cow as a sign of my affection.

*SQUEE!!* <3 <3 <3

I think you had nothing to do today than posting a journal, amirite?

Wow. people still have issues with these things ? Grow up internet.

Well. Some men have vaginas and some women have penises. Theyre the non op/pre-op trans people. But the inclusion for being treated equally and fair is still much appreciated.

I'm going to second this comment. :]

AMEN!!
However another thing is age, me being so much younger, I get brushed off, and not taken seriously :C It doesn't bother me, but still?
Only a matter of time till I am older.

All people are people all races are people

"Bap upside the head" XD works for me!

In any case , I must have been away from the internet too long because I'm not too sure what this whole women VS men thing is supposed to be.

Basically, a lot of men on this website leave harsh or rude comments on pages of females, or artwork, saying very small things you wouldn't think of such as "this would be a lot better if it were a male..." or "I liked this pic till I realised it was of a girl." Or other such things such as 'vag hating' or cases of hating on 'straight-fags.'

to be fair, i've gotten the comment 'would be way better if it were gay', but honestly that's the sample audience. A comment saying 'great, but a bit off of what i wanted' is just as valid as 'great, and i love it the way it is'

Complaining about a lack of your preferred porn isn't the same as being sexist. If people go around slamming artists for their sexual preference, or leave harassing comments pertaining to the gender of the characters in the picture? That's sexist.

Not to mention the creepers who rp fuck everyone's pictures. I just belittle them for the behavior and they stop commenting, usually.

I guarantee you if somebody commented on a homosexual themed picture,"Nice, but would be better if it was straight" would receive a lot of hate. And it should, its wrong. If you don't like it don't comment, its very simple. Expressing that something is "disgusting" to you because of content as far as sexuality/gender its wrong. At least to me.

it's all in the tone, isn't it :?

Compare these two comments:

1) Man, I really like how these have been coming out. You're really good at this particular thing, but i've noticed that all you draw are dicks! Why no love for the gina, man? I know I like them |:3

2) This is good, but it would be better if it weren't a pile of gay guys.

one of those is flatly offensive, and one is friendly, but both say the same exact thing. if someone was offended by the former, frankly they ought to stop whining.

Perhaps i'm not the best judge on what will potentially offend people, but as anyone, i can only really use myself as the barometer here.

I would not overreact like people are here (typical case of a storm in a water glass)

But it IS offensive. Like they very often say , nobody is forcing you to watch. If I as an artist do not fit your preferences , there are certainly plenty of other people who will.

I for example , would not appreciate someone coming on my page and demanding I draw straight smut , because it won't happen and that's that.

^this

Are we sure they're just not trolls?

I mean , even by furry standards , this is pretty retarded.

While lots are, some aren't. Its rather sad.

'if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything' <-- should hold true on the internet, but unfortunately doesn't. You could be the worlds biggest female/straight/closed relationship hater out there, but just because you are, doesn't mean everybody else is and doesn't give you any right to shove your ideals down people's throats or be nasty to those who aren't.

It's sad that it's come down to this.

Very well put.

Sexism? On my fa?

Pleh, just goes to show any community is a sample pool of the populace at large. Unfortunately, pricks are pricks no matter where you are.

Oh, 'Neer. Your heart's in the right place, you should just...Word that differently. ;u;''
I'm a dude with a vagina. Having a vagina means I am physically female. It doesn't mean I'm a girl. u3u
I get what you're saying, you just worded that in the worst way possible, ehehe. "Men have penises and women have vaginas" is actually a saying mostly used by anti-trans* bigots, so...I can understand why people are getting upset. umu