Amen!

I second this Amen and ask for another!

Amen!

Amen!

Fasho, bee

Fuckin preach it

Never blame on malice the actions of others that are clearly from stupidity.

>.< Finagle's Law. I need to learn to read slower.

Nope, it was Hanlon's Razor. Ugh. Always go with your first answer, people.

Occam's Razor?

I think you've misunderstood. I'm in agreement with the author of this journal entry.

It is sexism.

It's just from stupidity, not malice.

yeah, unfortunately

I've seen this exact same thing play out in the atheist community recently. Hopefully this will engender some changes amongst furries.

I doubt it, sadly.

The atheist community is kinda scary sometimes, not because the people are mean but half the time the arguments simply go to.. "Well prove your case in God" or "agree to disagree cause there is no way to actually prove or disprove the existence as of yet" and can never come to a settlement because of those simple things and most of the time the religious folk keep going or feel like they've won the argument due to those circumstanes. O.O;;;

Atheism has a lot to do with secularism and keeping people's personal gods out of government. As far as the arguments go, it really comes down to the whole "He who asserts existence must prove it." thing.

I'm atheist so I understand that take. Forums can get ridiculous though.. too many times I've just had to leave a conversation because it ends up boiling down to prove/disprove which most of the time isnt the point of the topic.

half the time the arguments simply go to: "Well prove your case in God"

I'm one of those atheists who DOESN'T do this. If people want to believe in God, then I won't/can't stop them. Its not my place to make people believe or not believe in something. That's entirely THEIR choice. I decided long ago that I just don't believe in that anymore because that's how I FEEL on the subject. Does that mean I hate people that are religious or try to force them out of their beliefs? Of course not! My mum is Christian but I love her to death. And she doesn't care about my non-religious decision. She'll support me in anything so long as it isn't illegal--which I wouldn't do anything illegal to begin with--

There are asshole atheists and there are asshole religious people and all of us need to learn that being that way is NOT okay. Both communities need to learn to get along--even though its a near impossible dream/wish--otherwise nothing will change

Ive had this happen on both types oddly enough. I think more than anything its people not knowing when to just keep their opinions private.

I wouldn't say it's demeaning to women as much as it's a very arrogant way for them to express their preference.

this. I have had it happen on both m/m and m/f stuff and in honesty seen a good bit of said opinion beyond just art..its mostly people just being rude and rarely really meant to be demeaning..its mostly just poor expression of what they like/dont like

This. It's not like they're necessarily saying "women are inferior, bring us more penis!", they're just being stupid about their opinion. There might be misogyny behind the comment in the individual, but otherwise I think Werevixen's right here.

In a lot of cases, perhaps. But when they pair it with "ew vagina/boobs," they're not leaving much room for doubt.

The example given was not "ew bewbs/bajingo" as much as ANY comment, and I disagree with that standpoint.

...that being said, if they DO say that...yeah, you're kind of right.

Then it's still preference, or are you saying it's demeaning to women if you openly state you're not attracted to them, and rather would look at males?

I think the word is 'homosexual', and adding to that also 'douchebag'. At no point is it actually demeaning or discriminating women.

"It would be better if..." implies that there's something inferior about the subject matter. That's where people start to find it demeaning.

Imagine for a moment that someone saw a commissioned piece of art of you and your mate together, and said they find your relationship or your body 'gross'. You need to look at it from the flip side of the coin.

I'd say "hey, you're a fucktard", not "hey, you're discriminating based on genders and sexuality".

Now, when they start saying they find it gross AND are going to do all they can to keep artists from getting commissioned art with my parner. That's discrimination.

Or rather, keep artists from taking commissions of me and my partner, rather.

The wording was all wrong.

Not talking about discrimination, talking about being demeaned. And being demeaned is exactly what you explained above. And I'd probably respond exactly the same way, with perhaps slightly more profanity at the offender.

I still wouldn't feel demeaned, they are rather dickishly stating a preference and not telling me I can't be as I am.

I'd consider it more a personal attack than a general cover-all statement.

Let's agree to disagree here. . . it's fucking rude :P

It is, but the best course of action is to not get dragged down to their level. Tell 'em to fuck off and let it be.

I'd say cursing at them is pretty much getting down to the same level, personally :P Informing folks in advance that comments like that might be bothering people (because I honestly think a lot of them don't realize it) is probably a more polite course of action.

Sorry, but in some cases, being the "bigger person" in response to something personally offensive is like trying to stuff an atomic bomb that's about to explode into a shoebox.

Sometimes a good verbal reaming is very, very, VERY well-deserved.

I'm not talking about being the better person. I'm talking about telling them to go suck on some railroad tracks and then ignoring them.

Yeah, but how often are the comments that specific? It's almost always "shame this is straight" as far as I've seen, not "UGH! Why did this artist draw vagina (despite the fact this is clearly not new)? This is gross and the artist should be ashamed!"

I get why this bugs you, but I really feel like your assertion of sexism is a bit...off. It's more like entitled stupidity than misogyny.

I've discussed this at length with at least four other female artists in this community on separate occasions. We all seem to feel the same way, as women. And considering being 'demeaned' is entirely a matter of how one feels, and can't really be defined any other way. . . I believe what I see and hear from other women.

Have you tried discussing it with males and females together? Not having a different (yet, of course, weighted and reasonable) perspective into it may possibly hurt your argument more than support it in this particular case.

As you said, the other side of the coin. Though neither is lesser or greater there are very distinct differences, views and opinions that one side may not experience so readily.

This journal IS meant to inform people, both male and female, how comments like this offend women. And yes, I actually have a male and female mate, so we talk about these things constantly. But my male mate has the same issue seeing it from a female perspective that. . . I'd imagine you do. He isn't a female.

The best thing I could equate the feeling to for a gay male would be this: If someone assumes that because you're gay, you are somehow less valuable as a person, or should be ashamed of your sexuality. That is how comments like this make women feel in the furry community. This is an overwhelmingly male-centric community (I don't think anyone can dispute that, just look at any male to female ratio at a convention or gathering) and women are not only outnumbered, but often made to feel BAD about our bodies by comments like these. Any comment that expresses disgust at a woman's body, or states that they don't want that female present in that art. . . makes anyone reading that comment who IS female feel unwanted. I've actually seen people make these comments on COMMISSIONS, and that's particularly unnerving for the female commissioner or the female whose character is pictured.

This honestly might be a subject that's just hard for a male to comprehend. . . I don't know. My male mate was sympathetic, but I got the feeling he had trouble putting himself 'there'. All I can tell you is how I feel, and how a lot of women I know feel.

Almost every person who responded with not understanding my point to my journal earlier was male.
It's interesting.

I'd say it's more 'obvious' than interesting. It's like saying as a woman that you have a better understanding of how a gay male feels emasculated by people who assume gay men can't be masculine. We cannot understand the situation better than they do, or even as well as they do. We aren't male. We aren't in their position.

yep
I deleted it because people were reading other people's comments and getting in a hissy while ignoring the point of my original post. I guess Im not as good with words on a hot topic such as this.

Okay, I guess I get that. But why not just say "fuck that noise, they don't know what they're talking about!", when somebody says something like that? Because...they clearly don't know. They're being stupid and inane, who cares what they think?

There's a major issue of sexism in the fandom, I won't argue that. I do my best to discourage that kind of talking and thinking when I hear people saying it, because it makes me very upset to hear it. But...I just don't see it in this case. Well, not in the general example of what you're talking about. I mean, there's always gonna be stupid people out there that will heckle ANYTHING just to heckle, and there will always be entitled assholes that say things because they're entitled.

When people come in and say "oh, I wish this were two guys instead of straight" (or whatever, just an example), they're not coming in with the intent of degrading the female/female character. They're just expressing their idiotic opinion. And while I get that hurts and feels degrading, it isn't sexism unless the sentiment is specifically coming from a place of viewing women as inferior. There's a major difference between that kind of comment and telling a joke at the expense of women. Or expressing an unfavorable opinion of women.

It might be possible to make an argument that it's passive sexism, but...if the person isn't even thinking about it in terms of male versus female, it's still a stretch. And generally, that's not how they see it, it's "turn on" versus "turn off". Because I'm willing to bet that 99% of the time, the comments in question are made when a guy has his hand wrapped around his joystick.

I understand why it hurts your feelings, and I'll agree it's unfair. But people are ALWAYS going to say it, and I really don't feel like it comes from a place of hate or female disgust as much as just...stupidity. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I swear. So if I come off offensive, I'm sorry. That is NOT my intent.

I'm not arguing that it's generally not done out of real sexism or malice. In fact, I mentioned as much in the journal above. But that's the point of the journal. . . to let people who are probably unaware how their comments might be construed know . . . well. . . how they might be construed. I think most people would stop, if they understood.

Eh...I don't entirely think so. Speaking as a man, and referring to my comment below (or above, I hate how FA does comments), sometimes I've thought and said some dumb things while in the process of self-manipulation. Sometimes things I wouldn't normally say, and definitely nothing I meant maliciously. But, and it's no excuse, only an explanation, sometimes we guys will put up moronic comments under these situations. Oh jeez, if you knew the number of idiotic "your character is hot" comments I wish I could take back in those situations... XD


...that being said, if someone makes these kind of comments just when they're idly browsing or otherwise going about FA without being "in that mode"...I don't even know, then. I suppose, in this regard, the journal might help people that would make those sort of comments rethink them.

Eh. I think we both agree that women and men deserve equal respect, and it's more about the choice of words we disagree on, if anything. ^.^;

Biggest question I have is why the necessity to say anything at all if it was just wank material? Why not continue onto your searching to find something more to your appeal, its not as though I go to scat porn and go "Oh would have been soo much better with no poo." Simply if I come across it, I obviously dont care for it even if the artwork was amazing and move along. No need for the comment. Its also a lot more hurtful when, and I've seen this TOO many times, there are multiple comments from various users who comment the same or similar stance of "wish the women wasnt there." If its one.. whatever dismissed.. but when you have 10 or more comments lamenting the same thing it really just gives a sinking feeling about what you are.
The thing that sucks the most if that, as a woman, we get enough belittling from straight men and it would be nice if it didnt come from gay men too whom often times we feel a little more of a connection with because to some degree we experience similar issues in degredation and belittling.

Biggest question I have is why the necessity to say anything at all if it was just wank material? Why not continue onto your searching to find something more to your appeal,
Apparently, this extremely simple concept is too complicated for some people to grasp...

It's never necessity, it's all stupidity.

Ten comments like that on one submission? I've never seen that, and I"m very disappointed to hear you've had to deal with this.

Honestly, this is all rather frustrating. I sympathize with the feeling of being belittled and unwanted (depression is a hell of a condition), but it's really upsetting to think that guys really think about and treat women like you're describing. To the point that I want to believe it's being exaggerated. Ultimately, I really don't know what to think on this. I want to think men can't be that bad, but I also know there's a lot of women that really get upset...

And THEN I feel like, no matter WHAT I do or say or think, someone's gonna call me a sexist JUST because I have a penis, and it makes me wonder if I should even care if that's gonna be put on when I'm really trying here. So what do I do? How do I help women without feeling like my own opinions and values are being disrespected?

"guys really think about and treat women like you're describing"
Again this is not all the time but I often see this at work where men dont take me seriously because I am a female. I work with fish and know a hella lot about the fish in my care but since the aquarium world is dominated by men often I get overly questioned or my advice or input is put on the back burner. My male coworkers get talked to with a higher amount of respect or confidence in their word even if what they are talking about is false/bad information or less than ideal advice.

Most posts I usually see have less than 3 of the remarks, when/if they occur, here on FA but I have come across a couple posts, again wish I could pull it up but I dont think I'd be able to find it as its been a while, where too many similar minded folks had the need to voice that opinion.

"someone's gonna call me a sexist JUST because I have a penis"
I dont feel thats the case. One way, and if you have worded it as such and I missed it somewhere then i apologize for bringing it up, but having opinions is good but also keep the stance that you may not understand 100% because you are not of the gender or that you see it in a different view. Because this is a discussion that is primarily based upon feelings and not everyone is going to have the same feeling about how they take the comments then you can agree to disagree primarily because you dont view it as such but again you cant talk from first hand experience.

Might be going a bit on the extremes here but saying you understand how a female feels, or how you think you would feel as a female, though you have not walked in their shoes is no different from a high society white person claiming they know or can truely sympathize with a person of a different racial status. I can never say I know or understand what its like to be male, the responsibilities and expectations society places on them. Hell this topic can go the way of the men as well since often all men get lumped into groupings such as saying its all misogyny which is most likely not the case but could be an underlying cause to some of the comments.

By "understand", I mean that I can relate. I'm not trying to insinuate that I understand every aspect of it, but suffering because you're different is pretty universal.

Totally agreed with you. I think people are having a disconnection between stating a preference and making a hurtful statement. It is entirely possible to prefer the male body without saying something negative about a female body - what draws the line is the difference between simply preferring m/m artwork to specifically commenting "this would be better if it was gay" or even "ew vag/boobies gross" because it implies, either blatantly or not, that the fact a female exists in the image is a negative attribute.

But why is it demeaning? Admittedly, part of demeaning is how a person feels, but it's also a matter of how you interpret what a person is saying and trying to convey. If you're getting upset because a person is just expressing an entitled, uneducated comment...

Look, I can't say I understand why your feelings are hurt over this. To me, it just comes off as "stupid people saying stupid things", without an intent of malice. If there's something more I'm not getting, then would you be willing to expound on this a little bit?

So just because it was said "without malice," means it can't be upsetting to someone?

My grandmother is racist. She doesn't behave "with malice," that's just how she was raised to talk and act. It's a hallmark of the time and environment she was raised in. BUT, if she commented on a picture of an interracial couple with "Shame your partner's not white, you'd be a much better-looking couple if they were." I think the non-Caucasian individual (and, by extension, any PoC exposed to her commentary) would have every right to be upset and offended. Not only would her comment be unsolicited and unwelcome, but it would be demeaning to non-Caucasians by insinuating that they're "not good enough" to be with a white person. Ergo, inferior.

It's the same way with this situation, but replace "white" with "male."

"Shame your partner's not male, you'd be a much better-looking couple if they were." or ""Shame their partner's not male , they'd be a much better-looking couple if they were." How is that any less offensive?

Stating that something would be better if it were something else, is insinuating that there is something wrong and/or inferior with its current state. It's not exactly rocket science.

couldn't have put it better myself, thank you

Except you're looking at it as replacing "female" with "male", which I am willing to bet is NOT how the majority of people saying that are thinking. My guess, based on the kinds of stupid things I've said in this sort of situation, is that these comments are being made while males are partaking in certain forms of "stress relief", and are bemoaning that this picture they've come across isn't their preference. They're saying they want it to be a "turn on" instead of a "turn off", based on their tastes. They really aren't looking at it like "woman bad" (usually), they're looking at it as "this doesn't turn me on as much as it could if this fit my tastes".

It's not the same as your example, because it's an entirely different thought process. Trust me, I've never posted a comment like that, but there was a time before I dealt with my self-inflicted "women are icky" hang-ups where I'd think the kind of comments in question. Was it because I wanted the woman to be insulted and discriminated? No, it was because I was lamenting that the picture wasn't really turning me on, because I was in the middle of the aforementioned "stress relief" activity.

I'm willing to bet I'm not the only person to have thought this. Hell, the only reason I don't have thoughts like that anymore is that I'm not as picky as I use to be. I think it's important to not misconstrue where the idiots saying this crap are coming from, dumb as this shit is.

Except you're looking at it as replacing "female" with "male", which I am willing to bet is NOT how the majority of people saying that are thinking.
Er... except that's exactly what they're thinking. They wouldn't be saying "This would be better if she was a he[i]" if they [i]didn't specifically think that women are unappealing and wish that the female character(s) were male. And that sentiment? Is misogynistic. You can try to pretty it up however you want, but that doesn't change what it is. It doesn't have to be malicious to be misogynistic.

They really aren't looking at it like "woman bad" (usually), they're looking at it as "this doesn't turn me on as much as it could if this fit my tastes".
There are ways to express that sentiment that aren't immature, insulting, and grossly misogynistic, you know. If you absolutely have to comment, "This isn't to my taste, but it's still a lovely picture!" followed by navigating away from the page[i] and going to find something more to your personal tastes, does the job quite nicely without making the speaker look like a complete dickhead.

And "sexual preference" isn't an excuse for this behavior, either. Because:

a.) [i]None of the gay men that I[i] know would say anything like that, and would more than likely be offended to be associated with that mindset. They actually have these things called, you know... [i]manners, and know how to treat other human beings like human beings.

and

b.) Being gay does not equate to thinking that members of the opposite sex (in this case, women) are disgusting, unappealing, or even unattractive. It just means not being sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex. You can be disinterested in having sex with any given group of people without being insulting towards them (and if you can't, you can at least have enough manners to keep your unsolicited comments to yourself. "Do unto other" and all.)

I'm willing to bet I'm not the only person to have thought this.
The key word there is THOUGHT. There is a HUGE difference between thinking something, and coming onto someone's page and stating it outright.

No one gives a flying fuck what someone else thinks[i], as long as their nasty/hateful/hurtful/ignorant commentary stays in their heads where it belongs. The issue arises when their brain/mouth filter breaks down (or simply doesn't exist,) and they go around spewing their brain-vomit all over everyone's pages. Just like "This would be better if that black guy was white!" is completely unacceptable, so is "This would be better if that woman was a man!"

I will reiterate: [i]This is not rocket science. It's really not that hard to grasp unless one is being willingly and deliberately obtuse. And that's really all I have to say on the matter.

(Also, don't mind the broken BBCode. Chilly fingers + a sticking "?/" key = disaster =p)

I think if you are going to take part in this massive social network known as the internet, you are going to come across rude, arrogant, stupid people no matter their sexual preferences or the intent behind their words.

This likelihood is amplified in the furry community, due to the fact that its a community of fruitloops and nutjobs of all genders and ages.

If someone makes an ignorant comment, I find it the most fun to just smile and move on. The same tactic works in traffic, when people try to grief me and piss me off I make it a point to laugh. It makes my life happier and pisses the miserable assholes out there off even more.

While we're still splitting hairs though,

it's still demeaning to the artist to basically dictate/demand what you want them to draw more of. ;3

I don't think anyone will argue THAT. As an individual, such complaints are completely neglectful of the artist's preferences or work load, so sexist or not, it's not something that should be said.

Ahhhh, if only we didn't have to keep reminding people of it....

Sometimes it's that they just don't know. There's a new ignorant person growing up every day. ^.^

I agree whole heatedly
Doesn't happen to me, because I have like no content, but when I see it happen I get slightly offended, and feel for the artist
I also hate when people favorite a clean piece and say "normally I don't look at clean art, and this is great even though it's clean!"

^THIS Ugh. Both subjects frustrate me to no end, it's a backhanded compliment >_<

You.
For this.
<3 *ehugs*

Most of it can be translated to "my dick would be much harder if this picture wasn't so damn revolting to me!".

However, I can't believe there's people on that side of the argument considering how much gay furry art there is.

More to the point, people think that's okay to say to someone?!

Is that a terraformed Mars?

Yes!

Wicked.

Thanks, I thought so as well.

This is a topic that has greatly upset me. I believe that for equal rights to truly be in effect that all parties of sexual orientation have a right to express themselves. For the furry world I have felt that women as a whole are not always fairly represented, especially straight women. Going with the common mentality (which I agree with) that if you’re born gay or are also born straight. Choosing or wanting to express your sexual preferences in your art is a huge part of the furry world. All genders and sexualities should be able to do so without ridicule.

im with you rukis

Honestly I think it's a bit sad that it took an event like this to open peoples eyes. From square 1, I've always look at everyone on an equal plane, gay, straight, bisexual, trans, it doesn't matter, we're all people, and as such, we all deserve some respect and dignity. The same goes for art; yes everyone has their own opinions and that's fine, but you don't need to voice it if you know it'll offend someone else, espiceally the artist.

TLDR: Show some respect for people and their work, don't wait for something like this to realize that everyone needs some respect.

And sorry for the rant in your comments Rukis!

Well said Rukis. I can understand people feeling entitled to their opinion but that does not mean they can be disrespectful about it. Social grace and good manners should be practiced despite disagreement in preferences.

Thank-you!

Agreed. ^^ Appreciate someone for who they are, not who or what you want them to be.

Here comes another "snarky" comment:

I thought you were a man... because to me it makes sense that men draws gays and women draws lesbians. Just saying.

Nope, even in the manga industry, the majority of m/m relationship artists are women. Trufax

Hah ha! You must not read any slash fiction! Women LOVE doing guy-on-guy stuff, although their gay material tends to be a lot more romanticized (look up the term yaoi) than work done by gay men.

And straight men love seeing and drawing lesbian stuff-- but only if both women are gorgeous. You don't see a lot of really mannish-looking butch looking females in lesbian material done by straight men.

On the same token, Straight women rarely do lesbian material, and you're not going to see many straight men doing gay material.

Human sexuality is a very strange place.

a good majority of the artists on this site that draw m/m art are women, actually ;) and almost the entire yaoi industry is made up of female artists

Given the high percentage of non-heterosexual males in the furry fandom, I don't think there's enough data to support your former statement...

let me re-phrase then. . . almost ALL of the male/male centric artists I know are female. And before you state women are more likely to have more female friends than male friends. . . you'd be incorrect. The majority of my friends in furry are male.

In this fandom? No, I completely agree with that statement about the gender of friends, just given the male to female ratio versus the m:f ratio outside the fandom.

Also, I wasn't gonna say anything with just that first sentence in mind. Other than that statistical oddities arise all the time. *shrugs*

Well I've always had more male friends, even outside of furry, honestly. But yep. Thinking right now, and of the artist friends I have that I'd consider 'close friends', I know. . . two. . . male artists who draw m/m. All the rest are female, and that's about a dozen.

Fair enough. But out of all my friends, I don't know of any of my female friends that draw m/m, while I do have a few male friends that do. So each of our cross-sections of the population are very different.

I'm a woman and more of my adult pieces are M/M

It's kinda reversed... not necessarily in the fandom I guess (cuz there are lots of gay male artists), but in society in general. Blanket statement ahoy: men love lesbians, women love gays. I have so many lady friends that love to draw/write/read M/M stuff! XD

The more you know!

Wow, didn't mean to spam you- lots of people responded to this comment at roughly the same time, sorry dude!

Honestly most of the mostly m/m artists I know are female x.x And ive seen a large portion of male artists being the ones who draw f/f. just my own person experience and observations though ^^:

Holy Crap! Why are there so many comments!

Because lots of people have pennies that are glued together lol

Holy caw, Batman! I made an interesting comment for once!

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with women (pro or con) at all-- it just shows the commenter has an extremely narrow focus. If you did a picture of someone having sex with a car or a skeleton, and people commented they'd want to see guy-on-guy instead, it doesn't mean they hate cars or skeletons, it just means all they care about is guy-on-guy.

That being said, it doesn't really reflect well on the people making the complaints, unless they want to perpetuate the impression that all gay men are sex-obessed horndogs that think of nothing else.

Some of the comments have been accompanied by "eeew boobies/vagina's" "It was hot until I saw the vagina" type comments.

Another female artist was doing a commission for male on male art and the commissioner was disgusted when he found out she was a female. I think he even demanded a refund because of it.

I would say it is, because saying a gender change would make it better implies the presence of a female character is negative in some way.
Comparatively, say you had a preference for wolves. Saying "this piece would be better if the tiger was a wolf" is a pointless annoying comment toward the person who owns the tiger character, as if the tiger character is inferior to a wolf character. Especially if the art is not for you, such a comment is rude and entitled.

Yes I agree, and it largely depends on the context too.

Like a generic image where someone is stating their own preference for the specifics of the image (and this is why people make edits to popular art)
Vs making a comment on a piece that represents real people... at least in my opinion.

It pisses off soooo many artists when they find their work photoshopped so it has the genitals of choice. Most artists want their work to stay as intended and that is insulting in itself to change something like that not even having to do with a sexism issue.

If you've ever heard of the site e621.net its all over there, gender swapping out of preference.

I don't mind if it is m/m or f/f or m/f, if it's good, it's good, doesn't matter to me. Even though I'm straight, I don't mind seeing m/m and f/f. I mean, some of those pairings are really good looking together, just as some m/f pairings are as well.

Agree wholeheartedly with you here! The quality of an art piece should not depend on the sex/sexuality of the characters, which is I think what Rukis is trying to say here.

I feel like I'm missing some news but that's why I often don't comment on what I don't like unless I happen to like it regardless what is it (I'm not meaning just m/m m/f f/f ?/?)

About time someone said something along that line ^^ nicely put Rukis

It's sad that something as obvious as this still has to be pointed out in the 21st century :T

Honestly I think it's demeaning to the artist, not to women. Even then it may not even be demeaning to the artist dependent on what it said.

I don't see why this has become a big thing, this has gone on forever in every possible direction [this would be better if he/she/it was a he/she/it or fat/thin/hyper/macro/sparkly/whatever.] Some people will always feel the need to promote their tastes/kinks/fetishes regardless of what the content is.

Only in a very small number of cases is this ever malicious, mostly it's just stupid entitlement.

Let's be honest, we've all thought this way, we just don't all post the comment. [I know I've seen plenty of art where the artist's lines/pose/colours etc were personally amazing but the subject matter bugged me too much to enjoy their work, I just didn't say anything and moved on.]

This is how i approach things and it is the right way. there are things that i just cant stand seeing (though its never about male or female since i quite like all mixes of art gender wise) but i just was always taught its okay to not like it but you don't need to always say so and I think that is the real issue..people on the internet especially just tend to say whatever they want.

It's a back handed compliment. There is no way to make everyone happy, and they think that by inserting their two cents, needs more dicks/spoo/vag/what have you, or this is great even if it's something they find revolting. Most of it is moronically good willed, Hey this is great even though my usual preference is something else. But it still stings

boy is this the truth. Can't understand why people think it's okay to do that at all.

Because they feel entitled to put their preferences on others? It's not sexism, it's blindly being a spoiled brat.

Yes this! I actually make it a point to balance out everything that I post on FA, so I don't have followers that strictly watch me for gender/orientation specific pieces. The majority of my watchers are aware that I am female and that I draw everything, and on FA I have received VERY FEW of these types of comments. I think they know I would ban hammer their asses if they did. Luckily I have a diverse drawing preference so it's easier for me to deal with, but many of us female artists are not so lucky.

The only site I had this issue at was Inkbunny. Had one guy even say to me, "So you don't draw cub, scat or babyfur, but you do gay. I guess one out of four isn't bad..." I closed my account faster than he could blink.

Anyone can explain to me what's going on? I've seen journals like this before and I see no proof, no screenshots, no examples about the problem. How many sexual discrimination examples are there in this fandom? I can understand that it must be annoying if similar comments like the one mentioned are repeated all the time but is it really so demeaning? I would understand it would be demeaning if they said 'Oh god disgusting ugly vagina' or similar.

I won't lie on this, I respect women for alot alot of reasons and mainly because they have the right to be with a man they like publicly, something that I don't actually have. Even if a bit jealous, I still respect them! This community is keeping me here because I can openly state and express my sexuality without suffering anything from such actions. And I highly doubt I am the only one! And I am bisexual, mind you, even if my preference at the moment tends to guys!!

My point is that maybe there is no demeaning intention (nor result) in the statement 'this would be hotter if it was gay' other than hurting the artist's feelings. If I had people telling me that to one of the few straight pictures I've ever drew, I'd feel bad because people didn't like what I spent loads of time drawing and them focusing more on the content than the actual artwork. That won't mean that I suddenly was discriminated would it?

Not allowed to make call out journals :/

We aren't allowed to point fingers at specific comments, I'm afraid, or I'd show you a bunch of examples.

Aw, I see. And I think I understand why people consider it demeaning too, reading a few of the comments here helped.

But maybe it's because that I see it from a gay point of view that I understand such comments as nothing malicious, ya know? I am sure most people don't even understand they are being sexists with such comments

<_< I just ran through the comments in your female pics... jesus, what?

There should be a call out by all female artists to unite and ask the sexists to remove them from their watchlist or they'd be blocked or something x[!

I remember seeing a bunch of screenshots, and I can't for the life of me find them again. :/ Expressing your sexuality is fine, great even! The problem is when people start calling women disgusting, gross, annoying, bitchy, etc. in the comments I'll keep looking for that link....

How could a single soul say a woman is disgusting <_<? For all I know, one gave birth to me!!

Simply go to Rukis's page and go to any of her art that features a woman in a sexual manner in it and you will see plenty of it. Id direct you but not sure if that would be considered a call-out thing.

I see @_@ woah, that's.... alot of it!

But I see a small minority talking about 'This would be better if it was gay'. Most of the heterosexuals pretty much state it out loud like 'EEEW BOOBS'

" Most of the heterosexuals pretty much state it out loud like 'EEEW BOOBS' "
Im a little confused by that posting.

I have viewed art from other artists that have a fair amount of the "would be better if male" on a single posting.
Even if its a minority it still happens enough to be an issue.

I mean that those that don't like girls say it like 'eew a woman' 'eew boobs' and similar to these

But yeah... As I said before, I don't find it as demeaning as I find it annoying. If I was one of those female artists I'd smack em all by now <_<!

Anything along the lines of "this would be better if..." is demeaning to the artist--but you're completely right.

I do all sorts of art; straight, gay, something different entirely--so I don't get a lot of that. But it is completely rude, and I am glad you addressed this.

Critique is fine

Absolutely, but when you have your vision as an artist challenged by someone randomly telling you how to make something you put a lot of hard work into doing "better", it kind of rubs me the wrong way.

You can say "so and so looks just a little off", or "so and so isn't quite right", and still be critiquing. When you say "so and so should be xxx because that would make it better", that just sounds snide.

so true

I'm pretty disgusted by how rampant misogyny is in this fandom- especially from gay males. You'd think the folks that are subjected to some of the most prejudiced behavior in this day and age would be understanding and considerate of the rights and feelings of others but LOL NOPE. It's especially disappointing when the fandom is toted as such an open minded community... no, no it's not. I have been verbally abused online more often by gay furry males than by anyone else.

Go figure, Humans are humans

And if one gets the chance to be prejudice they will

right? It's disgusting.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying? I'm a woman making commentary about how often I have been mistreated in this fandom due to my gender and I'm not really sure what your argument is?

If your argument is that you are gay and a perfectly decent human being, please don't go jumping down my throat by putting words in my mouth. I have lots of gay friends and I am bisexual myself so this is not a sexuality thing. I'm just pointing out that almost all of the misogynistic verbal abuse I've gotten in this fandom came from gay furry males. Sorry to break it to you, but the fandom is full of lots of folks that are narrow-minded and abusive. Definitely not saying it's everyone but you can't deny that it exists?

I'm sorry my comment came off as generalized, I do not voice my opinions often for this exact reason. I am really introverted and antisocial. I'm not wired to be diplomatic and I hate participating in debate. I'm not a malicious or aggressive person at all, I just don't know how to talk to people.

I COMPLETELY agree with you. I've come across some outright nasty and mean gay men and for no reason as well. I've been called a whore and a slut and told that I must have sucked off a lot of people to get the art that I have by gay men. It really ticks me off.

People do that?

I don't understand your view point on this subject...

People like what they like, If I drew a M/M piece, or have one commissioned, and some one said "this would be better if M/F" I would not take offence. Same goes if I were to commission a M/F piece and some one said "It would be better if F/F" The first thing on my mind would not be 'This is sexist against men'

I signed a petition for this issue, along with a petition BullieWut mentioned.

sooo I have seen lots of those types of misogynistic comments and I have to say... I have been and still am offended by them all. I find it very demeaning to women. I'm glad I'm not the only one. And honestly I don't see how it can read as anything but demeaning. Weather it was intentional or not, I don't care. Saying that in some way my body is inferior because I don't have a penis is not okay. If you don't like the subject matter, you don't have to look.

in other news, I am totally out of the loop of who brought this up recently. more dramas are ensuing?

preach it, sister.

I have to agree with this. One of my friends who's a gay male did a straight piece a long while back. A commenter said it's not right for him to draw a straight adult piece because he's a gay man

lol what?? wowwie wow wow.

I know, right? That's what I said! haha

o__________O the fuck???

I really have no idea what they were thinking but jeez! Now artists who are a certain sexual orientation can't draw certain things in the fandom!

sometimes it is difficult not to look, as sometimes you can't always tell what the subject matter is, but is is quite easy to just close the page xD
that's what I always do

yes, well I think that is what the saying truly means, in a more practical sense :) you're right, and I do the same thing. No need to comment about your twisted panties and get everyone riled up because it isn't your cup of tea. There are lots of things I don't personally like, but I let other people enjoy it. If only more people were like that.

Agreed, Rukis! When rude, insolent, and ,otherwise ,dim-witted people can't enjoy art for something other than the genders displayed in them, it drives me crazy. Take myself for example, I am straight and Christian, but don't mind to see m-m, w-w, w-m art.

It always bothers me to see these comments how one gender is 'ewww' or 'ick'. It is so incredibly insulting.

However, I must admit to having, 2 or 3 times, uttered sad and frustrated words on how I feel herbivores are under-represented in furry art. Not because I don't like to see beautiful art of carnivores, because I do. But the low percentage of herbivores is sometimes saddening to me.

But fans of furry m/m art, can certainly not claim that it is under-represented in any way.

well none of us are actually cows, so it's okay. . . I don't think anyone will take offense :P

Don't read enough to notice this sorta thing. hilarious that people would comment with that. Its like saying "It'd taste better if it were peanut butter" When its almond butter. When it comes to matters of opinion there is no right answer.

I've seen it on a few commissions and honestly it's more of on habit that the people saying them need a good backhand to knock a little sense into them. That might sound harsh but coming on to leave a comment of "it would be better if..." and it's for their personal preference of it being m/m for a straight picture. It's better if they never left it at all. While I don't mind the m/m and I'm perfectly fine being straight. The last thing an artist needs to see is someone being a jackass to give a crappy critique like that.

Amen to this completely, still wish there was a fav option for journals. I can't count the number of M/F or even F solo picture's I've seen that have been battered with "Ew boobs/vagina/would be better if it was male/male or male solo" comments, it's hard to imagine ANYONE with common sense thinking that is a acceptable comment on a piece of art.

What's worse is how OFTEN I see it. for a community who is all about "Acceptance" there is a awful lot of rude comments and favoritism.

"Treat others the way you want to be treated" - The Golden Rule

I've never made a comment like that about any kind of artwork but I have seen several. I didn't think much about it at the time but I did sometimes wonder why they would think it would be "better" one way or another. Just because one thing may be more appealing to me than another in no way makes the work of art better or worse. These people must be simply looking for nothing more than what turns them on, not for nice art. I have to wonder if they have any concept of what art is anyway.

A. Fucking.

One of the things that has always frustrated me about this fandom is how self-entitled everyone seems to be. Like seriously who died and made YOU the customer or the art critic?

If you are so set in your ways that it WOULD be better with a different pairing of the sexes, then pay another artist. Or at least try to. Let's see who would actually accept money from people who pull this shit.

*A. Fucking. Men. XD

I'M GLAD I CAN BRING PEOPLE AMUSEMENT EVEN WHILE I RANT.

I said it before but I'll say it again as it's the truth. Straight couples are treated like second class citizens on here. Women get an especially hard time of it. I've had people stop talking to me the moment they found out I wasn't gay, despite being friendly and nothing but respectful of THEIR choices. I've had gay friends long before I even started coming on this site.

The whole 'ew vagina' thing makes me sick. However, if one were to say 'Ew You stick your dick in a shit hole' - Oh wow. Suddenly I'm a biggot and ignorant. Bullshit. Grow up. The internet makes it this realm of no responsibility and causes a great deal of people to act out and say things they would NEVER say to a person face to face.

Sex is sex. I have no issue with the choices people make and I support whatever relationship they wish to pursue. However, for a community talking about the struggles they face for discrimination from the public, I find it mildly disgusting that *some* folks on here decide that's a cool way to conduct themselves to get their own back on the straight people. It just proves the average maturity level of the people that post this rubbish.

Treat women with respect. Or with booze. I combine the two.

No ladies, you're welcome. :P

Thank you!

I've had people stop talking to me the moment they found out I wasn't gay, despite being friendly and nothing but respectful of THEIR choices.

That is screwed up, this is the first time I have heard about people doing such a thing, it appears they are doing the same type of thing they would hate being done to them. If we respectful of each others choices there should not be an issue. I have noticed a little of the flack heterosexual couples can get and it does not make any sense, having such an image is not a slight to anyone else. I personally have never thought ill of heterosexual couples, why would I? And some do think it is acceptable behavior to make negative, rude remarks. One can hope they are just more clueless then hateful, still troublesome either way.

I don't think it's out of hate honestly. It might be something as simple as they find you interesting and then realize there is no avenue to explore with that person. It doesn't really bother me, I just find it surprising that before you're chatting and having fun to suddenly going to radio silence. Just a bit bizarre.

It likely is not hate, (still appears ...goofy?)It was just something I amazingly have never run into, I know such thoughts have never crossed my mind, if people are cool with me I am cool with them. Like you say, a bit bizarre.

I try to like you Rukis but I think you're really taking things too far here.

It's a comment... on people's tastes in pornography. There's nothing inherently misogynistic about having a sexual preference for males or commenting on a scene, saying it would be "hotter" if a certain sexual situation occurred between two males. I would go as far as to say that such comments might not be very constructive, that they are not very tactful or that they are tasteless. Maybe... maybe they're inappropriate. But demeaning and mysogynisic is ridiculous. Nothing about the comment implies that person has a negative view towards women, or heterosexual relationships, just that it doesn't fit their sexual preferences.

And this is why. Imagine how unfair we in the LGBT community would find it if someone commented on an LGBT-themed piece and said 'this would be better if it was straight'. It's the same damned thing when you say that about a straight piece.

I don't feel it's unfair or insulting. I have friends who think sex between two males is icky. It doesn't change how I feel about that person. And it doesn't mean that person doesn't respect me or my relationship (as long as they aren't actively trying to oppose gay rights or something like that). It just means that they aren't into certain things that I like.

In general, I would like for people to be less easily insulted.

People would be less easily insulted, if people would be less insulting. Common Courtesy =/= Common

I'm not the type of person who wants people to like me, in case you hadn't noticed. I wouldn't voice so many unpopular opinions, if I did.

If you watch me, watch me for the art. This isn't Facebook.

I'm totally unblogging from your facepage broheim. :/

I don't have any social media pages I'm aware of. I think someone made one for Red Lantern, but I have nothing to do with it. I prefer my socialization be face to face, thankyouverymuch.

I think the sarcasm was missed in my delivery. >.> xD

lol, no, I'm aware :P

Now the student...has become the master.

Well to be fair, it's harder identifying sarcastic responses on text or writing.

Kob's a good guy- He's just messin around lol

*chuckles* Kob's attempt at humor was misplaced. XD Forgive him, he's a strange mutt. ;D

I think you misinterpreted me or I used the wrong word maybe.

Maybe something like "I cant' believe that you actually feel this way" was what I was getting at.

I wasn't going to enter into this debate, but I just had to bring up the way I look at it. Let's take it out of the realm of artistic fantasy and replace it with reality. Say you post a picture of yourself and your mate, whatever gender they may be. Then say you receive not one, but several comments saying the picture would be better if one of you were a different gender. That's essentially the point being made, especially when the actual art that IS being commented on is of people's personal characters, characters who essentially represent themselves.

I have posted art of myself and my fiance, who happens to be male, and have received comments saying it would be much better if I were a male as well. I'm sorry, but to me comments like that ARE demeaning, because they imply that because I am NOT male, I'm somehow inferior in their eyes. Just my two cents. ^^

Personally, I don't care what anyone's preferences are. Love is love is love.

this comment.

I don't think your analogy really fits the situation. Would it be rude if somebody said that? Yes, but I don't think it's demeaning if they weren't specifically elaborating on an anti-gay agenda.

In any case, I think porn should be treated differently. If we're talking about a male/male furry piece that is sexual, it's irl equivalent would be something more like an xtube video that we made. In that case, no, I don't think it's demeaning at all if someone were to say "I would like this a lot more if the one taking it was female..." I don't think male/male yiff on FA or male/female, for that matter, which is what this is about, is analogous to a photo of me and my boyfriend together on facebook or something. Even if it's non-sexual, the idea behind furry is still fantasy, and fantasy is about self-insertion (no pun intended). The fact that it's about inserting yourself into a fantasy scenario makes it different from the rules of real-life stuff.

The original journal wasn't addressing explicit porn specifically, which is why I used the analogy I used. Not everything is going to be catered to any individual's direct tastes, and maybe it's the sense of entitlement that goes along with the comments that I find insulting as well. To be honest, the pictures I've received the comments on were NOT porn, as pieces of that nature are extremely rare for me to commission in the first place.

In the end it's a matter of opinion and perception. I think the main idea of this journal, and the one I myself would like to reiterate, is for everyone to simply think about things before they say them. I've always lived by the rule of treating others as you want to be treated, and simply keeping my mouth shut if I've nothing nice to say. I guess I just wish that were the prominent way of existing, which I know it honestly will probably never be.

I know what you mean by that, about people thinking about what they say... and I'm trying to think of a response that isn't insulting to the fandom as a whole and it's participants... but I can't.

There's a great majority in any social media who let the monitor become a shield. They suddenly believe that because they are hidden behind a computer screen, they suddenly have free rein to say whatever they want to, no matter how inappropriate, hurtful, or ignorant it may come across. It's almost as if some people's humanity gets thrown over their shoulder and forgotten when they log into a website. And that goes for any situation, the one Rukis pointed out is only one of them that happens to affect her and several people she knows on a direct level. Like I said, maybe it's just wishful thinking on our parts that posting something like this might wake some people up, and it's point is definitely not limited to the situation at hand.

I don't see it as them saying you're inferior. I see it as them showing their unwanted desire of liking something else. They're not saying it's not as good to be women. They're just saying it's hotter to them to see two guys. I see it as "I want to see what I like." they're not saying "I want to see two men because I think women aren't as good" they're just expressing that they want to see what they want. It does come off as insulting and I get taken aback (as a female also) when I see comments like that.

But you do have to wonder if they ARE trying to insult women when they outright say "EWWW WOMEN ARE GROSS. Dick is better." Because that is extremely common. :/

Only in the furry community though... Everywhere else it's like "Gay? That's really gross. There's no way I could ever imagine being with a guy." That's how like 99% of the people I meet are. And I live in a fairly liberal area. I've even got this reaction from women, that it's somehow really weird that I'm into guys.

The fact that furries are like the complete opposite is kind of amusing (sorry it apparently bothers so many people though). That there's this group where being gay is the norm is kind of refreshing, which isn't to say these kind of comments are appropriate.

Both cases are very inappropriate.

^ 100% agreed.

I'm referring to the "I's like it better if it was two dudes" kind of comments, not the blatantly "ew vaginas" ones.

I really enjoy how tactful you are when it comes to bringing things like this to attention.
Really, at the end of the day, people would benefit greatly if viewers would simply decide to not look at a piece that doesn't concern/interest them and move on. I don't understand why people feel the need to say things like that, it really is rude. There's stating your opinion about somethin', which isn't a bad thing at all, but it all boils down to thinkin' before rattlin' off an offensive comment. I do agree with you on that it's likely more ignorance not malice or anything. It's not somethin' one would generally think about. Most don't seem to be concerned with the other side of the coin so long as they're cashin' it in at face value.

Anytime a person says something would be "better" if it was done some other way, and that way is merely their personal preference, it comes off as quite rude and pompous. I don't see it as degrading to the artist on a personal level, rather it is degrading to the work itself. I can understand the artist getting annoyed by such rude comments but I personally don't see why one would be demeaned.

Of course this is all opinion, and I tend to let most things roll off my back. Not everyone feels the same, can shrug things off as easily. And if people thought before they spoke this probably wouldn't be an issue.

I would say it gets very personal when the image in question represents real people rather than just a piece of art. I admit, I would be a lot less offended if it was just some random art (because hey, who doesn't have preferences) but if the picture is of me and my mate, and someone said I would be better as a male, yeah I admit I would be insulted, because what's wrong with me being a girl?

I can see that line of thinking and I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling upset under those circumstances. Personally, it wouldn't bother me that much if they were taking about myself or a character of mine. In fact, if someone commented that they'd like the picture more if my character Swifty was a female, I may half-jokingly agree with them. (because, hey, I bet Swifty would make a smokin' hot chick. :P ) Granted, the other half of me would like be thinking, "Gee, what a prick. You should keep that stuff to yourself."

You said you would feel insulted in a similar situation. I think that's a better way to put it than saying degraded. Degraded is a very powerful word. It's semantics, but I prefer to reserve that kind of language for much more serious offenses.

Also, ain't nuttin' wrong with being a girl! Rock on! :D

Thanks! :D
I agree with what you said too, it really depends on the individual person and how hard or personally they take it. Some people just shrug it off or even agree, and others really find it degrading. It depends on the implications, tone and individual.
Yeah I personally would find it insulting (as opposed to degrading) but I understand everyone responds differently.

I'm happy you've expressed your opinion here, I agree with you completely. I am a gay man and the majority of the time I do prefer gay male art. Now and then a hetro piece has an aspect or aspects that I really adore and enjoy. However I also and apparently blessed with tact, courtesy and common sense enough that I don't feel the need to inform an artist that something does not fit my personal taste.

I am well aware that I am an observer upon the works on independent artists. If I am not paying the artist for their work and they are not requesting input I have no right to become involved upon what they create. I believe a piece of the furry fandom has a feeling of entitled involvement with artists they have no actual relationship or interaction with. Chock it up to the quirks of furry but you are quite correct, it's worthwhile to try to instill manners upon those who are lacking.

You are a cool dude :)
*G-shep-fist*

Thanks Sheppy! I try to live my life like a good GSD should... Unlike the amazing drama-gasm occurring here, but I think this is just a reflection of faceless, consequenceless, modern internet communication. Especially given the soap box stand of a popular artist's page. Furry is full of the gay, but mostly the young gay that didn't live through the more hate filled times.

i find it sad that people would even comment in such a way. A good chunk of this community lives in the western world where women do have equal rights and on the whole are treated equally (or better in some cases) than our male/trans counter parts. So why be any different online? Maybe it's a throw back to men feeling insecure about their positions now women can do/be anything they want and they take it out online because it's a way of hiding behind a name. who knows?

As a female artist, I don't think it's demeaning to women. If someone just says "I wish it was two dudes in this picture" or "This would be so much hotter if they both had dicks," I just see it as someone wanting me to draw THEIR preference. If anything, I feel it's more of a matter of entitlement for that individual. They want to see what THEY want from the artist. And agreed with you, they don't do it out of malice. Often it comes with the wanting to make a comment and expressing you like it but want things to change. And it often just comes off as insulting or arrogant.


The "ew boobs and vaginas" is another beast entirely.

Thank you.

Demeaning and arrogant are entirely separate concepts. Saying that such comments are demeaning toward women in general in fact seems very arrogant to me.

Yeah, women asserting we're being treated like second-class citizens in any society has been seen as 'arrogance' throughout history.

But I'm really not going to bother any more with this conversation, because nearly everything I'd have to say would be 'arrogant' under your definition. Let's agree to disagree.

I didn't mean to insult you or that women speaking out was somehow wrong, but I do see it as arrogant to speak on behalf of women everywhere, (it's demeaning to women, period...) which was the impression I got. If I spoke on behalf of men or gay men or furries I think a lot of people would find it presumptuous to be making such claims.

It's not arrogance, it's opinion. It's a journal on a social networking and artistic website. People are going to air their opinions. It has to be general, because of site policies, so people are going to take from it what they will and I think it's a little dim-witted to think the author is claiming to talk to every woman everywhere. She's talking from her own perspective.

Why on earth would you think I'm speaking for 'all women'? I even stated above, I'm speaking from the perspective of myself, and from many OTHER female artists I've spoken to on this subject, many of which have posted journals about this very problem. This is a journal. . . ANYTHING on it is going to be an opinion. But as you said above, you can't believe I feel this way? Well believe it. And I'm not alone.

I think you may have answered your own question below, but "Any comment made on a male/female piece of artwork, no matter how well-phrased, that expresses that the piece would somehow be better if it were male/male is DEMEANING to women. Period." is a very authoritative statement. I don't believe I'm the only one who interpreted it that way. You can't assume that people will be on the same page as you when they read your statements. People are liable to misinterpret things.

and that's my fault. . . why?

Do you know how many people read my journals? there are ALWAYS going to be people who misunderstand. And the issue here has been misunderstanding, and semantics. I went out of my way in my journal to say I DIDN'T think people did this on purpose, out of malice, or to purposefully demean. The fact is that it STILL DOES. Splitting hairs as to whether or not it's what they MEANT to do is like saying it's alright for children to use the 'n' word because they don't know any better. It isn't alright, and there is NOTHING wrong with informing people of how what they're saying is being interpreted.

To clarify: I FEEL that this sort of behavior is demeaning to women. Period. End of story. I feel that this is a FACT. I would have thought that this was an opinion went without saying.

The day I become the President of all Womankind, I'll let you know.

I feel like that has nothing to do with this conversation and is kinda straw man and guilting people who feel differently than you do. I totally understand your sentiments, and I agree when people say "ew vaginas." I know you're not replying to me, but just shilling in my two cents since I'm also a female artist, and you seemed to think 4 female artists agreeing with you made it unanimous. I agree with you mostly, but I just had some food for thought.


I am just saying, in the cases where they're stating they wish it was m/m (not the cases where they insult females like above), I feel it is not telling women they're less. It's not saying they're grossed out by women. Or that women aren't as good. They're verbalizing their desire for a good picture to cater to their tastes. They like M/M, and they see a good F/M picture and wish it was more towards their orientation, I agree, the comments are still annoying at best, and insulting at worst.

The sad part is that most of the "this would be better if" comments I've seen are accompanied by the "eww female bits" piece as well. Maybe that's why the two are sort of crossing in my own perception. :(

This, exactly. They are often seen together... :/

I've seen a few of these. And I agree when it's written that way.

I was referring to the ones where they do not say that, but just express that they'd like it better if it was something they personally preferred.

This! so so so so so so much this!!!

I love you!

I SPEAK MY MIND <3
Glad it didn't come off badly, just wanted to get my thoughts out there, too

It's interesting that when I speak my mind, I'm 'arrogant'. . . but for so many others, it seems to be a positive trait.

Whatever teflon you've got, lady, I want it :P

Dude, I totally respect you for your opinion. I like that about you. I just think you're looking a bit into it, personally. I've put my thoughts down, and you've put yours down. I think most people here are on your side 100%, and those that aren't do still agree from what I see. I agree with you about 80%, I just think they aren't bashing the other sex, merely stating their preference (even if it's not asked for).

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Communication 101, and I don't mean to be condescending here, but something like 90% of the message you get by reading or hearing something doesn't come from the words themselves but how they're expressed.

"I feel it's demeaning, to me as an artist and to women in general, to read a comment, no matter how well-phrased, that expresses that the piece would somehow be better if it were male/male instead of male/female." This leaves a totally different impression of who you are in the mind of the reader, than your original comment, and does not sound arrogant. It's amazing how slightly rephrasing something makes a huge difference, even though 90% of the words are the same.

Again, why does it matter who I am? This isn't a cult of personality, nor do I want it to be. Any time I write anything on this damned site, 20,000 people see it. If I didn't want to offend people left and right, I'd need a political coach to watch every word I say. But here's a few facts about arrogance:

I didn't question a person's character in my journal. YOU did that. Right off the bat, in your first comment.

Your whole point in these comments seems to be 'Grow a thicker skin. These other women aren't upset, and most of these comments don't mean any harm.'

Yet you're making value judgments against me for MY phrasing? Because I am lacking the singular phrase 'I feel' in my statement? How about YOU grow a thicker skin?

Or how about we all just be decent to each other, which was the whole point of the damned journal, and you stop arguing this point for the mere sake of argument? Because that's all this is at this point. The message in this journal was supposed to be a POSITIVE one. A way to let people know, 'Hey, you may not have realized what you're saying was hurting people. . . but it is. So let's all be civil human beings.' Why the hell can't we all just agree on that? Or is your only purpose here any more to prove I'm a loud, opinionated asshole? Because I will attest to that, personally.

I've seen people do that on pieces before. I just don't get why they think it's worth typing. >.< Even if they believe that's true, it has nothing to do with the piece...it's like going to an artist who draws lighthouses and saying "This would be better if it were a castle." It's so puzzling.

The denial and ignorance in some of these comments you're getting is incredible. I guess we're all just delusional wimmins and have nothing to be annoyed at.

THANK YOU.

I disagree with you, therefore you must be ignorant and just in denial about how things really are...

Oh I'm sorry, obviously YOU know how thing REALLY are, and it's not at all about how female artists feel when they get these comments, my bad. ;)

Then you must speak for all females I presume?

Of course not, and I believe a couple have spoken out here and said that it doesn't bother them in the slightest, and that's fine. But in recent days there has been much discussion of this topic and many female artists have said that this does happen to them and it does bother them (not to mention the private conversations we've had at conventions). So here is Rukis, calling attention to how rude we find it and that it does bother a lot of us.. and here you are being dismissive.

Look, all I was saying was that not every girl has a problem with it. You said, "obviously YOU know how thing REALLY are, and it's not at all about how female artists feel when they get these comments", that being said I took that as you speaking for EVERY female artist. I was only stating you don't speak for everyone, so please just speak for yourself. I personally think it's a rude thing to do and I have never left such a comment but I was never insinuating that it shouldn't matter and that it should be dismissed. I think you took what I meant the wrong way...

Agreed

It's as if you were trying to "misunderstand" me on purpose. ;) That was written in reply to his "I disagree with you, therefore you must be ignorant and just in denial about how things really are... ". I said "female artists" not "all female artists". Just read the replies here, and there were plenty in Sheppymomma's journal before it got derailed and deleted. Plenty of women feel this way and agree, so I'm not sure how some women not sharing this opinion makes our concerns less valid. It's nice that you say that you don't think this should be dismissed.. and yet that's pretty much exactly what you're saying in the other comments you've left in this journal.

Really? The oodles of artists speaking up on this issue in the last few days isn't enough for her to connect the dots?

There are just as many women who don't feel that way. Just because a few very popular female artists feel this way, doesn't mean all of us do. Each of us has our own opinions, and we would like to voice our opinions just as much as you do, that's all.

^^That's exactly what i meant. I really meant no disrespect Myenia...

I would really like to know where these just as many women are, they're definitely not in this journal. I've discussed this before with a few peers who do furry art full time too and have to deal with that behavior. No one is forcing you to agree with us, maybe you just haven't experienced as much of it as we have, maybe you just really don't care. But know that plenty do feel it's demeaning. Trust me, it's a thing. Are we supposed to suddenly not find it offensive because you don't?

And really, does it matter what proportion agrees? It's obvious that a fair number of those voicing their opinion here do. This is not some kind of empirical right or wrong issue, many women are getting very annoyed and that's enough for people like Rukis to want to spread awareness. And like she said, I'm sure most of it isn't dome maliciously, which is why journals like this are a good thing, maybe some people will read this and realize that yes, they might be coming off very offensive unintentionally and stop making those unnecessary comments.

Absolutely not, you don't have to agree with me at all. I was only stating how I felt on this matter. Your opinion is your opinion and I respect that. i was just saying that i personally just ignore this type of behavior. I was only suggesting that approach. However, you are free to voice your opinion and act however you please about this matter. All I was saying is that some people might not care about it as much as some of you do. Awareness is a good thing and this behavior is not, and I'm glad it was brought to the masses attention. I just wanted to suggest the, "ignore the jerks" approach. It's still not a good thing to do either way. I really meant no disrespect toward women or anybody really... I hope you understand this.

> I would really like to know where these just as many women are, they're definitely not in this journal.
Three women here (myself included) have stated they feel similar to me (as in they still do not like the comments, but do not find them demeaning; they find them upsetting, however.) I think you are wrongly assuming I'm not in agreement about most of this?

> No one is forcing you to agree with us, maybe you just haven't experienced as much of it as we have, maybe you just really don't care. But know that plenty do feel it's demeaning. Trust me, it's a thing. Are we supposed to suddenly not find it offensive because you don't?

Not at all. The replies you have made seem rather condescending and passive agressive, in my opinion. I was trying to state we're not against you, we're agreeing with you. No one here is saying these comments are good. We're not saying that. I'm not saying that. I'm merely stating why I disagree about the aspect of it being demeaning. I completely agree, as I've said, that these comments are unwanted and not appreciated. I agree it's a problem. I'm just saying I do not think it is insulting women, it's just these people saying they wish it was their preference. Which, again, isn't always appropriate to voice. They're not saying women are gross or disgusting, they're saying they'd prefer it if it catered to their likes, as opposed to the artist's. And again, before you read this wrong, they are certainly not entitled to it, and it's not liked to get comments like that.

> which is why journals like this are a good thing, maybe some people will read this and realize that yes, they might be coming off very offensive unintentionally and stop making those unnecessary comments.
Again, I agree

Guilty as charged. I don't understand why you needed to post all over this last night splitting hairs about semantics.

Because, like you, I wanted to express my opinion? And I happened to disagree with parts of it, even though I mostly agreed, so I said as much.

No, but just because you disagree with someone's point of view doesn't make that person ignorant.

I think most of the arguments on both sides are well versed and lacking ignorance.

That was to Shinigamigirl not you. My bad, I actually agree with you :p

Likewise. Comments on FA get hard to follow when there's more than 2 parties in a chain of comments.

Agreed lol it's VERY confusing at times

What these arguments lack in ignorance they make up for in, what I believe to be, willful misunderstanding. Well done.

whoops, looks like we forgot that our opinions don't matter. We better hurry back to the kitchen before someone notices!

Can you grab me a sandwich and/or pie whilst you are there? :D *OH GOD DON'T HIT ME*

just as soon as I get done ironing your undies sir

Be sure that you do. Fetch me my slippers! lol

lol I cant think of anything else smart assed to say. I'm bad at this

"This art that somebody else commissioned, or that the artist drew for their own personal enjoyment and chose to share with the website, doesn't conform to my sexual interests! Maybe if I say that it'd be better if it matched what I specifically want to see, they'll change their ways and only draw art that pleases me! Because artists should only draw what I want!"

Entitled morons.

My husband and I just did a male/female piece. It was very nice, it wasn't porn. But it was nudity. What we found very interesting was that it did not get a whole lot of faves and we don't think it was as well received. We also feel that for some reason FA just does not like "straight" art. People on FA do not appreciate the female form.

I think it's just something you have to get used to. Straight art, photos of animals and other things furries ought to like just doesn't get the attention that gay porn does. Even gay pictures that are not sexual don't seem to get much attention. The only thing besides gay porn here that really draws big numbers of views and comments is fursuit stuff. Gay porn and fursuits. That's FA for you.

I think you just have to build an audience for it over time, the interest is there. I do both m/m and m/f art in roughly similar proportions and if I sort my entire gallery by favorites, the division between the 10 top pieces is pretty equal (with the highest count being on an m/f piece). But I've heard from other artists who lean more towards one end or the other that they have varying experiences with whatever they draw the most being what generally draws in the most attention. One is to assume that this is simply because over time they drew in watchers who preferred whatever subject matter they posted the most.

While I agree with you that it's a very rude thing say in any circumstance, the truth is people are people, and that's never going change. EVER. We can only hope right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeUXY6v5tJk

"it's better off just not being said at all"

I respectfully disagree with that mentality.

Alright, I respect that you respectfully disagree. We all are entitled to our own opinions. A wonderful thing about being humans right?

indeed :)

Also, I don't know if you took this wrong, but I'm not defending them...I'm more or less saying it's hard to change assholes minds when there not really listening. It's like talking to a wall with most people, I know from experience...

Oh I'm aware of that. I just think the choice to not speak up against opposition isn't a proactive one.
There will be people out there that will forever discriminate whether it be race, sex orientation- whatever. It doesn't mean people should be silent about the issue in every situation.
Just my thoughts.
There's more than enough people who have experienced what Rukis has (including myself) to warrant reflective discussion. Commenters can take it in many different directions and that can be the unfortunate OR fortunate side effect of a post.

Just as someone who has had to deal with bullies back in high school I always just, "Ignored the assholes" that was my method. Tell them to shove off and ignore anything they ever did to me. Maybe that wasn't the best method but...I survived high school right? But as i can see it really does bother you all, so if taking a stand is what needs to be done, let it happen. I'll back you up need be. I hate intolerance as much as any other decent person.

I think everyone has experienced bullying in their lifetime at some point or another. As someone who works with kids on a day-to-day basis, the best way to stop bullying from happening is support from peers. Nothing says "you're a jerk, stop picking on Bobby" like three other kids standing up for the little guy. A bully is someone who's is hurting inside too. Doesn't mean it's right to take it out on someone else.

I don't think this is so much of an issue of bullying as it is an issue of people not thinking about how their comment might make someone feel. Regardless, it leaves a lot of people feeling like crud and it's nice to know there are people out there that support polite etiquette for all.

I agree, watching how one phrases their comments is the key.

"it's better off just not being said at all"

Going all out here but if everyone took this stance then women would be in the kitchen not allowed to vote, interracial couples wouldnt exist, there would still be slaves, blacks would sit in the back of the bus and use different facilities from whites, gays would be kept in the closet and no marriage would occur.

You can not change anyone unless you bring up a valid issue and point. Saying nothing means it continues and could get worse. Saying something brings awareness and perhaps will make others think about what they say. No its not going to change all people, and the general majority probably wont see this at all but either way bringing awareness isnt a bad thing.

And really all this is trying to do is have people think about what they type and perhaps write things in a more tactful way that doesnt come off as being rude.
Saying "Wish that chick was a guy and eww boobs" is an awful way of going about giving an opinion. If the post was more like "I enjoy the image but kinda wish it was two males since that is my preference but either way its nice work." then it would be far more accepting and feel less degrading or insulting.

Alright, alright I get your point. I'm more or less just pissed because when something like this is posted, good intentions or not, everyone gets into a rage and pissed. i didn't mean it in a "just be quiet" kind a way, more like, "it's going to cause so much FA drama" kind of way. However, you are right. i personally just ignore those types of comments if I got them but if it really makes Rukis and other that angry than something should be said. I'm just a more "ignore it" kind of person than a "take a stance" kind of person. I probably could have worded that much better than I did. i apologize.

It goes both ways, yet how convenient that women only notice it againbst them and shout us down as "rape apologists" when we point out the other way.

Not saying this is what you're doing... but I have been treated like shit from a good deal of the furry lesbian community.

...There's a furry lesbian community? I swear I know of only two or three lesbians in this fandom.

Yes and there seems to be a definate split between "we are just us, live and let live" and the rabid misandrist that would rather see all men suffer in some manner, while even the out-and-out chauvinists I know are various "shades of greyscale" from a playful "Benny Hill" type to a full out "Marc LePine" lover.

It's vicious rhetoric. Look at these comments here and feel the hate in some

I do agree with you... "thumbs up"
To me it seems like a backlash from people living the opposite in the real world. I don't think it's needed here as the hetero like me don't dislike or disapprove what the other part the this community does. Hell I would not be here if I did... I think these people don't realize that and are afraid that we repeat the same bad pattern from the real world. People, this community is not like the real world. In my view it's better it's an ideal, and is what the real world should strive for.

Well said Rukis.

This, entirely

Awesome journal, and then the comments happened. But I guess we shouldn't be surprised, considering how extensive this problem is in the first place.

Misogyny in the furry fandom is really something that needs to be given more attention.

Attention would be wonderful, but at the moment, I'd settle on anything other than denial.

Basically, I think it comes down to...

It is never okay to make anyone feel shitty about their gender or sex for the sake of expressing your personal preferences.

That is all <3

I think it's just misphrasing, nothing else. As you yourself said: not real malice.

Now, to be absolutely blunt: you can overreact to someone saying "it would be better if ..." instead of "I'd like it more if ..." or you can just read between the lines and understand they meant the latter, and that it's a personal preference of the commenter. It's not even on the subject of female rights...

Something to take away from this? Take a bit more care in how you phrase your comment on a piece of work someone has put time, effort and creativity into. And on the flipside, not pulling a comment into the extreme.

Agreed!

I haven't had anything like this, but I've had people claim they were going to watch me, but I censored an image.

After reading through these comments...there are too many people I'd hit reply to with this so I'm just going to post it standing alone.

Whether its preference or not, malice or not, it is an inappropriate thing to say on a piece of art, especially when it is a commissioned piece. If you don't want someone saying "ew" to your body or your orientation, don't say it back, its that simple. In this fandom, if someone said "ew, homos!" or "ew, buttsex!" or "men have disgusting, unattractive utilitarian bodies" they would be flamed SO bad for it. If women, or straight folks have to hold our opinions or change them for you, we think it should be expected that you provide us the same treatment. If you can't say something nice, or at least something constructive, shut the fuck up.

^ this

...Did you read the comments?

Exactly. I don't think that many people were saying that these kind of comments are appropriate or constructive.

It was that calling it "demeaning to women" is a wild exaggeration, and comparing it to actual sexism makes real world examples of prejudice and inequality seem less serious.

Fine. You want to make another comparison? Imagine for ONE second commenting on a piece and saying someone would be more attractive if they were WHITE. Because it is EXACTLY the same thing. Gender is just as important to a person's self-identity as their skin-tone, their sexuality, their race or religion. And saying someone would be more attractive if they were a different gender IS offensive, and it IS demeaning.

I really can't say any more on this without getting extremely angry. This IS serious. I'm tired of the attitude towards women in this community in general, and until people stop seeing these issues as 'women complaining and getting their feelings hurt' it's not going to change. This is a community where we tout ourselves as 'open-minded'. Let's all try to be a little more goddamn sensitive about what we say, okay?

They're not saying it'd be more attractive, though, in the latter cases. they're saying it's their personal preference. I think you're confusing the people who say "ew vaginas and boobs" with people who are merely stating a preference. I agree, as I've said, it's still upsetting and not wanted. but they're not saying FUCK WOMEN, they're saying "I personally prefer men, and while this picture is good, I wish it was two men because I like homosexual art better."

I think we could all try to get some thicker skin and realize most people don't know it's insulting. I think you did a good thing with this journal, bringing it up because you're right it's not out of malice. But by the comments you've been making, you really seem to be insinuating that any other opinion than yours is wrong and hurtful, and somehow their difference of opinion is condoning these actions. That's not the case, we're saying we see it a little differently. Please don't assume we're being insensitive, ignorant, or hateful to think otherwise.

With all due respect, if someone were to comment on a piece of art and say "he would look more attractive with white fur," is that the same thing as real life racism? Is that the same thing as saying "you would look better if you were white" to a real person? I really don't think it is. And that's why I don't think this has the same implications as real-life racism or real-life sexism. Furry is fantasy. I think that makes these kind of comparisons largely useless. Because, when it comes down to it, nobody's actual persona was the target of these comments. I agree that people should avoid making creepy comments in general, nobody wants to see borderline disturbing comments.
But I take issue with the idea that this is comparable to real-life sexism... mostly because blanket statement about these types of comments being demeaning, no matter what just can't be possible for every case, because social interaction is a complicated thing and people know each others comfort levels to varying degrees, based on their existing relationships with each other. So you don't appreciate these kind of comments... FINE. But you appear to be speaking on behalf of everybody. And that's why I felt the need to post my opinions.

But please don't get angry over people's differences of opinion, or the fact that people want to debate the merit of these claims. I don't think that's going to make the attitude you describe toward female artists go away. And I don't think people are trying to deliberately anger you. I believe that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If you want the fandom to change, make the haters want the women around. Let the contributions of the females in this group speak for themselves. I think you mentioned that much of the m/m porn comes from women. When you see negative comments about females, let these people know that without female furries, there would be no porn!

Even though I haven't actually witnessed any of this attitude this first hand, either online or at cons and such, I do think the existence of this attitude towards female furries is quite regrettable, and I do agree with you that it is very hypocritical in a community that claims to be all about tolerance and love and friendship and all that, especially when it's coming from gays who tend to be the targets of prejudice.

Gender is real. None of us really have fur. If you can't see the difference there, the issue is with your perspective. We shouldn't be comparing real issues to something that as shallow and imaginary as a make-believe character's pelt color. There are real women connected to these female characters, and their connection to their character's gender goes a lot deeper than many people are willing to recognize.

And I'm sorry, but I do find your perspectives damaging. The mere idea that a woman shouldn't get angry when they face people who disparage their gender and their bodies is like saying we shouldn't be outraged that gay people don't receive equal treatment under the law, or that african americans are discriminated against by the police in this country. Outrage is what changes things. Women didn't get the right to vote by being demure, pleasant, and cute. We reacted to what we saw as an inequality, and spoke out.

Not to mention, you've been making your points by calling me 'arrogant' for professing an opinion. . . which is all you've been doing. I consider that insulting, not to mention hypocritical. I think anyone would. You don't call someone 'arrogant' if you're trying to have a pleasant debate. You don't mention you're 'trying to like someone, but you can't because of _____' if you're trying to debate. You became insulting from literally your first comment. This has never seemed like a debate to me. It's just another attack against an opinion. . . which is funny, because that's what you're accusing me of. Weird.

I am not going to agree with you. I have watched women feel disparaged by these comments, I've been there myself, and I have literally seen behavior like this chase someone from the community. Today.

You CAN be demeaning to someone without realizing it, without meaning to. And that's the whole point. All I wanted from this journal was to LET PEOPLE KNOW what they might be inadvertently doing.

Gender is real. None of us really have fur. If you can't see the difference there, the issue is with your perspective. We shouldn't be comparing real issues to something that as shallow and imaginary as a make-believe character's pelt color. There are real women connected to these female characters, and their connection to their character's gender goes a lot deeper than many people are willing to recognize.

Some of the characters are imaginary, and some are connected to men. So how does that come into play? Because of that, I think that there's enough of an element of make believe, gender being a real thing notwithstanding, that it makes this hard to apply to the real world.

The mere idea that a woman shouldn't get angry when they face people who disparage their gender and their bodies is like saying we shouldn't be outraged that gay people don't receive equal treatment under the law, or that african americans are discriminated against by the police in this country. Outrage is what changes things. Women didn't get the right to vote by being demure, pleasant, and cute. We reacted to what we saw as an inequality, and spoke out.

I'm saying context is everything. Women should get angry if someone disparages their gender. But as a few others have said, these kind of comments just aren't that, even if they are rude. I just don't see it as disparaging to their gender, and if it were my own commission and somebody said they wished a female was involved, I wouldn't find it demeaning to my sexual orientation. It's not at all like saying gay people shouldn't have rights or that racism is OK because those aren't the same thing as those comments. The message there is totally different. That's what this is about.

Not to mention, you've been making your points by calling me 'arrogant' for professing an opinion. . . which is all you've been doing. I consider that insulting, not to mention hypocritical.

I said your statement seemed arrogant, not that you are an arrogant person. I feel that it is an arrogant thing to say, but that's not all of what I said. I refuted your comparisons to real-life social problems on the basis that they're not comparable. I did not call you "arrogant" in all of my posts. And, what I more or less meant to say, in my first comment, which was maybe poorly worded, was "I usually like what you have to say about things and I usually agree with you on most things, so I find this difference of opinion, and the extent to which you're bothered by these comments to be unlike your usual nature..."

I can agree to disagree, and I apologize if you feel that I insulted you or called you arrogant, but I think you have been very hostile as well to those who have voiced a dissenting opinion here.