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The current state of the fandom.
12 years ago
I have noticed a somewhat troubling trend over the past few years. It's not the diaper clad, shaker loving crowd. It's not the unholy holes in costume crotches. It's not fursuit drag. It's not puppy play, or bondage risqué. It's something we think we want.
I would like to make the argument that we should be careful what we wish for...
Back in 2006, I was in my early 20's, had a good job, and had never been paid to take a vacation before. FWA in Atlanta was a logical choice for me. For as much as I used to insist that I was simply a tourist, I can now admit, I knew where I wanted to be. It was my first convention, and I came close to having a nervous breakdown in the poorly maintained parking lot upon our arrival. A shitty hotel within 1 square mile of 3 Waffle Houses, and graveyard adjacent. A flight path was directly overhead, and a constant abuse of the fire detection system insured little sleep for the restless furries. It was a magical place, or if you don't buy into that crap, it was at very least enigmatic.
The theme at that very first FWA was "Mardi Gras" maybe? Or, maybe love something something. Okay, granted, themes were a tad scant in the early days. I think we were all impressed that 500ish people actually showed up. I bring up the theme because I am assuming it prompted a full figured woman to squeeze into a scandalous little number over her fursuit. A fursuit that just so happened to be adorned with 6 nipples, each individually covered by a fluorescent "post-it" note. Surrounding her was an invariable entourage of 30 something males, all in full bondage. Each, with a dire need of a gym membership, Rogaine, and some sun. However, my tacit judgments meant nothing to them, as they gallivanted through the narrow hall, howling in unison. This was all within the first 10 minutes. There I was, in the middle of a hedonistic wonderland. My false pretense, and stern facade lasted about as long as my sobriety. I hugged a fursuit for the first time. I drank far too much. I met some of my absolute best friends in the whole world. I walked in on fursuit sex. We even caught a live possum in the graveyard, and kept it in the bathtub. As much as I hate to admit it, I too was howling by the end of the weekend. I feel I should take this time out to thank Tiger Paw for his capacity for forgiveness. As I was clearly undeserving of his patience over that weekend.
It was at that moment I was indoctrinated into a lifestyle that has gone so far as to fuel my entrepreneurial ambitions, and shape the individual I am today. A lifestyle of sexual deviancy, of visual nonconformity, of assumed identity. Yet, a lifestyle that would soon find itself in an identity crisis.
Now, it is debatable to the extent I participated in these more controversial activities. What was measurable was my attitude towards the controversial activities. I was self hating, and my behavior reflected that. I fell into the "too cool" crowd of furries. Furries that wanted to have the fandom, but on their terms. Even though I just had the single most enjoyable time in my life, I was insecure with admitting that I actually liked weird outside of an ironic sense. A coping mechanism, for sure. Finding the most cynical furries in the room, and making fun of the very things I wanted to do. Funny, you voluntarily drive 24 hours to go to a place you say you don't want to be. By my second convention, we had made the furry fandom a spectator sport for ourselves.
Fast forward to today. FWA 2013.
We are in a huge hotel, with no grave yard in sight. Attendance is 4 times what it was 6 years ago. I have seen Wal-Marts with less floor area than the "Dealers Den".
Gone are the days of those roaming hordes of bondage loving middle aged men, and hex-nippled vixens. Sure, they exist, but by ratio they are drowned out in a sea of youths clothed in brilliant neon "Pac-Sun" attire, listening to their dubbed step musics. Though, I would be reluctant to characterize that as a bad thing, I will say "it's different".
I had a brief chance to talk to Tiger Paw (or Evan, if you prefer). We chatted about quite a few things, but most notable in my mind was the conversation over the future of FWA, and the furry fandom. If you will allow me to paraphrase, "We will be mainstream in 2 years" said the paraphrased Tiger Paw. Was this possible? Was I hearing this right? True, we just had a very favorable report from the local paper, and things were looking up. Everyone was on their best behavior. A stark contrast to the early days of the fandom, where the Media coverage spelled out certain doom for us all.
That got me thinking. I did not mention it at the time, I think partially because it took a few days to dawn on me: "Wait, in our pursuit to be accepted, we have lost what makes us unique." Sure, a few squares are still a little wigged out by fursuits... But in our efforts to "out normal" each other, we have lost our shock factor, our edge. . I am afraid I am partially to blame.
We glorify bullies, and that serves to alienate the very crowd that started this little fandom thing. I did it. I said we need more "cool people" here. People more like me. (How narcissistic). People who only like the most socially acceptable parts of the fandom. People who dress right, and can walk around in public without looking weird.
The message of normalcy started to proliferate into the culture, and suppressed elements deemed "perverted". A growing impressionable youth culture are subjected to these limitations as if they always existed. Things like baby furs, and fursuit sex became taboo. What was once tolerated had become a liability to us all. We went out of our way to prove to the media that they were all wrong. That a sexual element was a farce. Instead of supporting each other, we threw people under the bus that admitted they were weird. With growing peer pressure, many of us seem to uniformly go along with the idea that we want to be that way, we want to be normal. We want to be furries, but not look bad. We walked away from our boring lives to come here, and the first thing we do is try to make this like our boring lives.
Only after I heard the prediction of going mainstream did I realize what that means. It means that a furry convention would be on the same level as an Anime convention.... A boring anime convention... the worst part being, we asked for this. This is what we thought we wanted. I am here to tell you that I am not looking forward to a mainstream furry fandom.
You may think I am some ornery old man, who wants to maintain "the way it used to be", That we should avoid normalcy at all costs. If you think that, you are mistaken. I also am not advocating you go banging each other in public parks. I am certainly not advocating anything illegal. My point is simply that our goal should not be to strive for acceptance. We should strive to be ourselves first. If that mentality becomes mainstream, than so be it. I say, let's not forget what made this such a unique thing. It draws in people that are adventurous enough to accept that they are weird, and celebrate it. This is the very thing that weeds out the squares that will never know how deep the rabbit hole goes. All because they are afraid to look bad, or afraid they might like it.. afraid of themselves.
So I say to you, stay crazy, furry fandom. Go out there, and have the time of your life.
And remember, keep it weird!
Edited by
Dulcinea the proactive ferret. Thanks! 
The community started to blossom and bloom rapidly, and it fip on it's head in comparison to what i used to be.
Media has been in the comunity for a while seeing these changes is making him think about the community ina new light.
At lest that's what I got from reading this.
I think increased popularity is a good thing, but the necessity of upscaling for conventions does come at a cost; the increasing media attention and scrutiny, leading organisers to be more cautious and family-friendly.
I expect that within a few years, either existing conventions will specialise in certain areas of interest, or new smaller gatherings will pop up focussing on niches within the general furryness.
most people find the community threw the media in some shape or fashion. I was shown Via a convention that was more like party. But even before then Due to my baby sitter being one, and a close friend to my mother. I wish I could find her after the fight they had she just dissapeared out of my life.
Every person has their own perception of the community and I could see this being a good solution for most issues. Invite only gathering's that are private happen all the time people who do that type of thing hide in the community. You have to know what to look for.
Not a lot of the people i have the pleasure to run into have been well decent people.. but as of late i'm meeting more and more cool people because I'm ignoring what everyone says and doing my own thing.
I'm in several clicks and groups. I get torn between people cause of issue they have and i just walk away it's not my place unless its a really stupid and i know i can help.
One thing i can live with out is the high school mentality.
I have so many fans and watcher's... who cares how many of those people to you talk to on a regular bases? or even once and while?
I am so much happier with a small group of friends that i can trust more then a ton of people who befriend me for free shit. let them call me what they want, they are entitled to their opinion, but there also a respect boundary that everything lives by "don't mess with me I wont mess with you unless needed", but furries are very social, and that's our down fall at first we're yelling" unity unity" now it's "segregate segregate", it should Mutual understanding that we should be striving for.
You do your thing and I do mind we agree to disagree cause we have our own view on things. Both sides win people naturally separate into groups based on interest if we learn to not throw stones and ignore what we dislike and yet not shove it in peoples faces we would be a much happier. but people have been preaching this line since the dawn of time. call me an old poet But see said the blind man while spitting into the wind it all comes back to me now.
We preach to learn from out mistakes but a race we still struggle with war and fandom. If we took all the money we spend on weapons and protection we would could cloth and feed the world over and start exploring space as one race. But we can't put the petty arguments aside. instead of making life better for the future we fight over chunk's of the earth can calling it mine like children.
If countries whose cultures have thousands of years of development under their belts can't do it what make you thing an online community can? Well we do but have believes and rive to fight yet to master mutual respect that's last step.
Diversity of the community is stunning yet one of the many thing's that separate us. People just need to understand not everyone going to like you, and that's fine you'll never like everyone you meet.
I digress, I have very long winded views on the matter's so i tend to babble.
All the popularity contest I've seen like the Fursuit fracas that is going on right now which is just voting for the best suiter,ect. out there. I've seen adults acting like kids and getting their own ways and could care less about what others think and feel. I've had many of those because I posted something in a journal that was on my heart and needed to be addressed and they just go "Remove" and or "Block". Really? I think that's childish! They friended me then now when the posts is posted they remove me so in that case I feel like I've been used! Wishing the fandom wasn't like this now yet sadly it is and I've lost some good friends because of others.
From what I hear, the original vision of Elliot's was to be a roving PAF Con, and they're taking a huge step toward that with this year's Vegas con. (If I'm wrong, by all means correct me. It's just what I've heard about 15 or so times now.)
Also, there already were huge yearly bdsm cons. I know several furries that have been to The Crucible.
I guess, my point, is that as furry becomes main-stream it's not losing anything except the freedom to be as out and open with your weirdness in public. There are still plenty of room parties, and whole rooms dedicated to single themes.
Frankly, I miss the weird in public. It always made things interesting. However, I look forward to future cons that are devoted to the weird and deviant. I just hope the cons I like don't turn into anime cons, I hate spending 40 bucks to go shopping (Megacon) because the panels lack anything interesting.
But basically we are in agreement; growth is good, and leads to more choice available to the individual.
And 'weird' is just a matter of perspective. For me, the fursuit parade each year through the town of Magdeburg is one of the highlights of the convention - to get to see the crowd's reaction to the fursuits. And while that's pretty standard fare to someone in the fandom, it's still extremely weird behavior from the general public's viewpoint. For about 80% of them, it's the good kind of weird, like a traveling circus, but weird nonetheless.
I really need to get to some FO events, haven't been since 2007 because of distance.
"Dang kids, get off my lawn!"
That's it? Just...go! God damn
But on the real, he's right- I didn't have one my first few, and that's when I had the best time! JUST GO!
Just perfect.
You could say the fandom has "grown up" if you will. And I do not think that is a bad thing. It doesn't mean we can't still have fun and be awesome. Times change and so do the people. Who knows, in 20 years we might end up where we started. You see that trend with clothes. At some point it gets hip to dress up in old fashion. Perhaps one day it will get hip to become one of those furries you describe from your first FWA?
Granted, I am an European fur and I have never been to those big conventions in the US (would really like to though) but in all honesty I don't think we are that different afterall. I just know that I still find the European conventions both unique and joyfull and even though we do not run around and flash our kinks in the public I still think we are unique and special.
I'm sure they'd be even more confused if they saw that my gallery had nsfw drawings, that weren't related to the baby fur thing, but I'm sure they'd still draw horrible conclusions about it nonetheless...
I don't see the big deal with baby furs; I'm not a babyfur personally, but really, you're not some creature that the fandom seems to portray diaper wear-ers as. I don't get it ;w;
It's just comforting, and peaceful.
This. This. THIS.
Jeff, thank you for articulating this. I've been noticing the same, but haven't been able to bring myself to write this. Why? Because in all honesty, I was afraid to lol. I was confessing to frizzle last night that I was intimidated by some people in this fandom, when now I came to the sudden realization that I'm actually just intimidated by furries as a general whole. I'm intimidated by my own self-appointed "family", it seems that now it's just a popularity contest, not a homey feeling. I'm being alienated because I'm not one of those dub-step loving spencer kids, and I absolutely hate it! FWA 2011 I felt like I had a home, I was meeting the oddballs and I loved it. Now, at FWA 2013 it's hard to even interact with strange faces, it's like everyone is afraid to just say hi to someone who's not in a suit.
I'd love to bother you at a con to hang out or even grab a drink, I seriously enjoy your train of thinking~
Holy fuck THIS.
It seriously is a popularity contest, and one of the reasons I'm hesitant to go to larger cons like AC and FWA... it's where all of the popular furries go, and so it'll bring a hole slew of people trying to garner their favor, etc. At the local convention I just went to (Fur The 'More), it was its first year with almost 500 people, and I felt like I could go up to anyone! Sure, a few popular people like Shia and Ty Fusky were there, but everyone was so down to earth. I'm scared that at larger conventions I couldn't go up and say hi to a popular person (like I did with Shia) for the fear of being snubbed hardcore.
Why can we all just be on the same level :(
I'll snub them back if they snubb you ;w;
I'm not sure how that translates to 'grr mean popular bully' =\
There was no "else", please don't put extra words into my mouth =\
I was trying to convey that, though these people are very popular, they were very down to earth and level headed. I don't see why people seem to be acting like I'm singling these people out like they're evil. I was happy to meet and speak to them.
But I suppose people would rather make me out to be a jerk and make it seem like I'm talking trash /shrug
anyway, even at larger cons like AC, i haven't found anyone scary or intimidating to talk to! on the whole, all furries are really welcoming and accepting. since we're all kind of nerds, i think the vast majority of us have been social outcasts at some point in our lives. we know what it was like to be bullied and we try not to do that to others (this isn't true for everyone, but most furries i have encountered are very nice). many popufur people are popular simply because they're nice, talented people! they love to hear from fans and won't be rude to you if you talk to them :)
Hopefully I can hit up AC next year and experience a big con! Though FurFright is pretty large too :O
Corgii was stating how she, if she wanted to talk to a 'well knowner' (for I hate the term popular!), feels intimidated be she herself isn't well known. Does that make sense? :c
You like wearing diaper's cool I don't but what yo do in your free time is that your free time, don't do it around me that's all i ask is reasonable for people to ask.
You find a group of people who enjoy the same and you won't have worry abot feeling segerated. anyone who treats you like that dosn't understand that everyone views thing thier own way.
i find it sad people who are fighting obession of them selfs then do it to other's like you and that' sad you shoudn't have to hide your self from the comunity but at the same time don't go smearing it in our faces get your art pst your work you enjoy it! If people enjoy yu enough they will embrass this new side of you. you haven't change we all just learned something new. dosn't chang my oppion of you what so ever you seem wel spoken and respecful of others the baby fur comunity need's more people like you ti ride of that bad name they get.
I have few baby fur friends and they cool people we just understand not around me do you wear your diapers cause it persoanl freaks me out and that's how the world should work.
At times they tell of parties they when to and thing's they did altho i may not like it they do and make them happy and thats what matters.
Be happy with your self cause in the end it's all you have, so enjoy your self while you can!
I think this mentality/thought is wrong. I don't know that Nataya means the statement in the way I'm going to discuss it, but bear with me. TLDR at bottom.
For you, personally, in your own house, I would have no problem with this. Your house, your rules. In my house, my rules.
In public, public's rules.
I think you can see where I'm going with this. More often than not, people like to include every place they are as a safe zone for their own inability to deal with a situation. I think, when it comes down to it, if you really don't agree with something strongly enough you should approach the person and ask them to stop whatever it is that bothers you. If they refuse, though, you don't have a right to use bullying tactics (calling the police/talking to the manager/etc) to get the behavior stopped. Your only recourse should rightfully be to deal with it or go somewhere else.
As long as the person is in public (or their own place) and not breaking any laws, causing vast amounts of trouble, or being indecent, then that person should be allowed to continue on without being bothered.
Again, I don't know that Nataya means it this way, but I took it that way the first time I read it.
TLDR:
Just because it bothers you doesn't mean they need to stop. There has to be a good reason to mandate people change behavior or clothing, and it isn't your comfort. (Unless the event is on your property.)
Right on! I see many people creating boundaries for others for things they like. I've had people tell me "You like such and such and I'm not going to be your friend!" so many times. Some don't even know me and start to make assumptions and yet those assumptions aren't real. People go around telling others lies about other people and one day it will smack them in the face as a wake up call to the person who starting the lies and rumors.
I got that feeling during FWA as well. Not gonna lie when I participated in Floor Wars, a good portion of the crew was nice to me knowing I had known them before and it was nice to talk with them, but like, whenever I got ousted in the first round, I remember getting ready for the swarm of love that both dancers got after their run, and one person came up and gave me a hug while I got the cold shoulder from the majority. Iunno. That kinda stuck with me. It definitely felt like a subtle "know your place" kinda deal.
As someone who's been around for about 11 years now there have been a TON of changes. But one of the most major ones I've seen is the influx of younger people and the "popufur" element that comes along with the ever-idolizing youths who need celebrities.
If you build it, they will come. The bigger you build it, the bigger crowd you'll have. With crowds come the same dynamics you find anywhere else you'd find a crowd.
It's just what happens.
Here is my take on it all summed up.
The days of furries awkward, shy, unsure beginnings have passed.. The fandom is in it's 'teenage season' or unchecked growth, unfiltered hormones, wild rebellion, dramatic mood swings and "know-it-all-isms". It'll be a few years yet before it grows up.
But definitely agree a lot! It reminds me a LOT like high school stuff. It doesn't help that with my health issues I can't always be bubbly, jump all over, attempt to be cute in suit, etc.
I already take copious anxiety meds to go to a con. When I run into people who do "think" they are better than me and go out of the way to let me know, it can throw my anxiety through the roof.
So glad about everyone opening up about stuff in this journal
I'm glad you posted this. Stay strange :)
Non-furry folks are not gonna think of cute anthropomorphic critters and pretty art if they hear the word "furry." They're gonna think of yiff parties and that CSI episode and people wanting to fuck dogs.
If my dad knew I was a furry I'd be shot at my doorstep.
It might be becoming a little more accepted, sure. But it's still a fandom, and a lot of people still look down on it. A lot of people still have the idea that we're animal fuckers dressed in ugly costumes. That's what "furry" still is to people outside of the fandom.
It's not mainstream. It probably will never be. In order for that to happen, average people outside of the fandom would at least have to accept it, and they do not.
we're not mainstream. just because cultural zeitgeists depict more and more anthropomorphs doesn't mean dick. that's a style of art that exists outside of the furry fandom, and I doubt that many people truly understand what it means to be furry. our counter culture stays counter culture, and just because we're not so vocal about the seedier parts of the fandom, doesn't necessarily mean that they're stifled under a boot and no one pays attention to them.
We(furries) all know sexuality is a part of the fandom, we know fursuit sex happens. we know some of the fandom partake in beastility, we know there are diaperfurs who prolly shit themselves and fap to furry porn, we're not blind to this stuff.
The problem comes down to the public media. if we openly admitted "yes, some of us do partake in this stuff" they would turn around and air "furries, they all fuck animals and shit themselves in animal costumes" and try to make EVERYONE in the fandom look like they do this.
thats just how the media is.
so we either try to present outselves well, as a whole, and deny this sort of thing happens, or suddenly being a furry means EVERYONE does all the things.
Also, who has ever killed a furry on the grounds of being a furry? Sounds a tad hyperbolic, or paranoid. I think their are other groups that show up bigger on the radar.
And not everyone is prepared or willing to die for something as frivolous as being a furry.
It's not the act of being a furry I would die for. It's the principal of not being pushed around. Because if you let someone control your life in fear, weather it be your sexual orientation. skin color, or just wearing a fursuit, it's all the same crime in my book. It's all intolerance fueled violence. You don't take that crap. You live your life the way you want to.
Personally I think our biggest problem right now is the high level of hypocrisy that's happening. A handful of folks are SUPER UBER PC and simultaneously suffer from 'high school everything has to be mocked' syndrome. I guess I'm getting old along there with you, media. I used to think it was pretty cool to make fun of peoples bad attempts at art, fursuits, etc, but recently its spread from mocking the overtly awful to mocking EVERYTHING. Nothing is sacred, and its just an easy in to being cool. IDK.
This is more of a journal to kinda get people snapped out of the cynical side of it. And to really leave people alone, so long as they are within the law. As we need some crazy.. or it's just kinda boring.
Recently I re-discovered why I love furry(FTM following FWA was amazing)- I forgot that most furries that you meet IRL are great, unique, amazing people. It's a community of phenomenally artistic and just all around good natured folks. I love how creative this fandom is- there's nothing canon, it's all individually generated and unique in nature. And everyone is helpful and generous and just amazing. IDK, a lot of the sarcasm and hate on the internet side of furry really drags down overall morale, I've been trying to wash myself of that side of furry recently, and the whole fandom seems 500% better once I did.
g, you are perf
People allowe it to be public. huge chunk of the comunity would be gone if mtv and what not didn't make those report's or what have you.
That when the cominuty became main stream and the then people has to stop the overly openness that then came with the new croud of furries.
I rember when buuying pron was a privet thing and kinda tabboo for artist and if you drew it you sold it privetly.
I love the freedom of expression but at the same time I have to say for people who deman repsect the shure as hell don't give it enough.
I think that's the bigest issue the fandom blew up like a gold rush twn and now all the gold is gon and we are at eachother throughts looking for scraps of what hwe wanted the cominity to be instead of just making that for our selfs.
That's what did, I stopped caring and did my own thing.
I though of furry as an expression of ones self... if that's the case with how some people act online, we seem to me at least, to have attracted ass holes and whores of all ages and variety and what not. Just people who go out thier way to piss other's off, or a blantly arrogant and don't care if thier in an elevator to take a shit in a diaper while your in suit stuck with them then turn to you and say, " opies i made a stinky "
So i think the point is here we kinda did it to our self's. head your own advice and learn to love it for what it means to you. If didn't think that way i would have left ages ago.
Lol and conventions have changed a lot. It's both cool and scary. But since then we have Al kinda became a big fat family.
Also, I do not agree with this.
Believe me, I've only started going to cons last year, and I brought my non-furry friend with me. We are *not* normal. xD
neon clothing makes me want to wear sunglasses and make me want to blare Paint it Black
I have yet to be to a convention or own a suit but mainly I joined the "fandom" as more of a means of self expression
where I could embody my inner wolf
i'm not really in it for the sex but i'm not completely against it
people generally understand a wider spectrum of gestures so you are not required to be a social butterfly
I would rather be myself but then again I've never fit the social norm
Thanks for making me choke on my cereal. You get a gold star!!! Oh and might I add that I agree?
....Whoo, sorry about that, blacked out for a minute from the sugar. What was I saying?
Honestly, this is a change I don't mind. XD
My first fur con didn't go very well because whenever I tried to talk my friend(which it was also her first fur con) would talk over me almost. There were a lot of nice people there, and I learned a little I guess. What I did learn though was that I can't let myself be smothered because of other people. I'm going to make my voice bigger when I go this year and hopefully I'll be able to make some long lasting friends( and meet current ones) without hesitation. I'd like to be weird, be myself I mean, without that fear. I just kind of hope people are prepared for it, ya know?
You know, honestly until you pointed it out I didn't notice the changes myself....But your right, people are encouraged in the fandom to fit into the social norms. I'm not really a fan of it considering I'm a freak in the largest sense, but no one seems to care anymore. Even furries with different religious views are starting to become "Fringe furries".
And it's rather sad when a fandom that is based on loving cartoon animals turns its back completely on a few people because they like talking cartoon horses...Just saying.
I honestly hope that we can rein in all this normalcy and push forward with being ourselves. Isn't that what life is about anyway?
It is hard to adjust to growing pains in any small community, we are growing and we are getting less greasy lowlife uber geeks in the fandom - AC 2002 was a horrible fetid smelling place filled with social rejects and < 1% female attendance. But now we have more diversity in the fandom, different social groups and sexes...I guess it will alter the essential weirdness overall but almost every fur i know is pretty warped in one way or another, new or old.
The issue of becoming lost in a mass of people and alienated is possible, and has happened elsewhere, but it isnt something you can fight really.
But in all seriousness, I do agree furry is getting "less weird." At FC years ago you wouldn't have more than a few suiters leaving the hotel grounds. Now they're in the main park in downtown San Jose, a group of suits every 30 feet, right alongside daytime crowds for a million person city. No one cares. Everyone is just having fun. Families and businessfolk stopping to get pictures, etc.
I disagree that that's at the cost of our weirdness. I think that's still there as well. Most genres (I can't even call it a fandom any more) are consumer based. Thousands of fans looking to a few commercial studios for their media. Furry is different in that it's producer based. Everyone is creating something. Everyone is sharing things. And even if several folks make their livings off this, it's all individuals and maybe small groups. We aren't having suit maker mergers or corporate buyouts or anything like that. And I think that's a good thing.
Anyway I agree we should keep self before going for normal, but I think at least part of it is the world getting less hostile to nerds and outcasts in general. We are getting less weird and not entirely by our own doing.
Okay I've rambled enough. =D
There is one thing I can say about furries that doesn't hold true for any other group of people I've been involved in. I've never seen my friends bullied at a rave for what they were wearing. What I would wish for? Furries to stop picking on each other so much, especially people who they don't consider "furry" enough for the furry club.
But for me, it's not that I'd want to partake in the parts of the fandom that I deem a litttle bit too on the "freaky" side, but am trying to hide it so I say I don't. I'm the type that feels EXTREMELY strongly about certain aspects. Diaper furs, baby furs, and weird fetishes are something you kinda have to get used to if you're a furry as it pops up a lot. I'm not into any of that, but I'm aware some people are. Hell, my friend even dated a diaper fur. I wouldn't partake, nor would I join in a friend partaking in it. But it's a thing that people do, and they should feel comfortable with doing.
But there are things, furry or not, that I feel should be left behind closed doors. Sex suits especially. Why? Because I don't believe in waving around sex toys, clean or not, sex toys that have been used by people who are complete strangers (hell I'd even smack the hell out of a friend if they exposed me to one of their used sex toys), that are claimed to be clean cuz unless you actually witness this happening with one of those backlights then it's just a claim, should be left in your bedroom. But that's just me. I've had people assume that since I think people should keep their sex toys at home and not expose them to children or unsuspecting people under the rather selfish pretense "what they don't know can't hurt them", that it meant that I condemn anyone for doing it. I'd condemn them for doing so...then taking it into public. But that's just a personal preference, not really me trying to make people conform to this image of "perfect furry" or something. Just a 'like in general' type deal. I could care less what one does behind the privacy of their bedrooms. The only time i care is when it stops being just something done behind closed doors.
Furry becoming mainstream? Eh...I can see where you're coming from. I've never gone to a furry convention, hoping to fix that for MFF, but i've had the pleasure of watching some of the the older ones and it is a HUGE change..even just a few years. But I, like you, don't feel it's bad. Just different. People are becoming more open to the idea of doing something they enjoy, despite it being something that some would deem them freaks just for doing. They don't care about the generalizations that the public will lump us all into. Yes, some of us are glorifying bullies, and I know of one huge one that just has his ego patted on a daily basis and makes him act like a complete asshole and like he's better than everyone, and this behavior is exalted rather than corrected. That's sad as a lot of people just cling to him, not out of true friendship, but just to fit into the cool crowd. But on the same hand, I see people being furries that I wouldn't have seen back then. We were all deemed socially inept, closet zoos that had no inkling of what sunlight looked like, but now look at us, sure we still get generalized as that, but a lot more people are starting to say "fuck you. i like it and that's all that matters."
Becoming mainstream or not...I think that's a beautiful thing. Things are evolving and changing and personally, I think it's for the better. Just as long as we stop trying to glorify bullies and stop trying to pretend that the weird stuff doesn't happen. Be aware of it, join in if you're into it, but acting oblivious to it only makes it seem like you're just hiding what you're into.
It is my personal opinion (Agree or disagree) that this argument of an article of clothing which was used and then (not speaking for everyone but for myself and those who do) washed properly is a terrible thing is utterly ridiculous. The argument is very generalized to most and or all suiters engaging in these acts and for those of us who keep tight cleaning regiments for our suits it's hurtful.
I have never heard of anyone throwing away bed sheets or expensive comforters because things got a little messy in the bedroom. Hell even my closest family knows what I do behind closed doors with my suit and still invite me to wear it during family holidays and gatherings because when I say it's clean they trust and respect that.
Granted there are suits that are poorly maintained, even further there are suits which are kept in a state of uncleanliness intentionally, I could keep my suit in the condition that I prefer it to be due to personal fetishes and preferences, but I don't. I know it will see it's use in public, I have enough respect for those around me not to bring it out unless in a proper state of cleanliness. My suit is the most spoiled article of clothing I own in terms of care and cleanliness. I do recognize that there are those who do not keep their suits clean nor do they care to show enough respect not to clean them thoroughly after such unnecessary to mention use, but that's not everyone and I don't agree with that particular type of conduct.
As it has been mentioned before I'll mention it here deal with it. Suits will be used for sex and more than likely you're going to hug a few them in your time. If you cannot deal with it, do not hug ANY suit, or do not attend cons. If you see my suit at cons and it still bugs you to the degree that you wont hug me in suit and that you will judge me for wearing it and hugging others in it fine, so be it. But I will remain to think personally that people who feel that way are ridiculous.
I end with this, most of the people I know personally who have similar opinions on suits used for sex have admitted desire to partake in such activities themselves. How's that for hypocrisy and going along with the mentality of bashing on others with the nerve to be who they are just to fit in?
And with the act of pants or sex, um...yeah? i'd feel the same way with both of those. If I was hugging my friend, and she goes "by the way, I fucked in these jeans...like wearing them while I was doing it" i'd be just as upset as when I hugged a sex suit. But why does that have to mean i'm bullying someone? I just don't like to be exposed to something. Don't I have that right?
Opposing opinions don't mean someone's being a bully, and no one's bashing someone for "being who they are" but there are things that aren't okay in society, and the fact of the matter is, there are going to be people who AREN'T okay with something, and you're sitting here trying to force it on them under the pretense of "well it's clean" what if they don't care that it's clean? What if the fact that it was used in the act is enough to set someone off?
I never once said that anyone that did this was anything. I merely stated my oppsition and opinion of such. I'm not a huggy person to begin with, so I won't be hugging a lot of suits anyway, but that doesn't mean that you should still FORCE your way of life and your oppinions, hobbies, and practicies on other people. Unsuspecting people who don't know that your suit was used for that, people who PROBABLY would be upset had they known about it. And people are just being "hey...well then they shouldn't hug me." when i'm sorry, I feel that's a really selfish way of going about things.
But no. I'm not bullying anyone, nor am i trying to bar people from doing things they want to do. By all means, have sex in your suit, have a good time, but as soon as you 'force your lifestyle' cuz that's exactly what you're doing, forcing people to be okay with something by the fact they're ignorant to it. If people know about sex suits and still choose to hug them, more power to them. But why do I HAVE to be okay with a practice that, I'm sorry, should be left in the comforts of one's bedroom?
There's a limit on being who you are. There's things you should and shouldn't do or say because that's not what's right to do, or what society deems right. I don't sit on people's beds, why? because i have no idea what's done in that bed and I know all the things that COULD be done in that bed and I could care less how clean someone claimed it to be. Doesn't mean I find the acts disgusting or the people aprehensible, it just means I don't want to be exposed to it personally. And I don't see how you're allowed to feel one way about something, but because I feel another way, I'm bullying someone?
I just don't want to hug a sex suit, and I feel that sex toys (as yes, this is a toy, used for sex, just like how someone would use a cat suit, or bondage harnesses, or dildos. It's all used for sex, bodily fluids are able to be on it, and there are just some things you can't clean, no matter how much you scrub. how do i know this person i'm hugging doesnt have something like....I dunno....crabs...pubic lice...scabies...something that can transfer from the suit to the general public?) should be left in the bedroom. But that's NOTHING to say about people who use them. No one's bashing anyone here. I merely have a different opinion. I don't want to hug a suit used for sex. I don't want my child to hug a suit used for sex. I generally don't hug suits because of this fear and I find that to be sad.
But no, I don't have a problem with people having sex in suits. I do have a problem with them taking that suit and using it in public. And again, you can tell me till you're blue in the face how clean you think it is. There are wayyy too much stuff that your cleaning won't get, not that that even matters to me. I clean my toys too, still don't use them to rub against my mom's face.
So even if I did partake in the act of fursuit sex, I still wouldn't partake in the act of bringing that suit to public use. As THAT'S the action I'm opposed to.
I wasn't flat out calling you a bully, It remains that my personal opinion is that kind of mentality is a form of bullying, in my opinion, whether you feel you are bullying with your expression of your belief is of your opinion.
I do personally doubt that every piece of clothing that you personally have ever worn which was directly involved in sexual conduct has been thrown away or not seen public use ever again. Now before you get your nickers in a bunch that's my personal belief and here we can agree to disagree. I don't mean it as an attack either I just don't trust what you claim to be the truth anymore than you trust me and what I claim to be truth.
I apologize if what I said prior had any inclination of being directed to you, and when I said you I meant as in general to those who feel that way. I don't worry about you, and I don't worry about others feeling that way, I just dislike it and I feel that the notion of such beliefs are in my opinion ridiculous. I know my suit is clean and if anyone is bothered by it oh well, I guess that after not being given the choice by others what they do or don't wear which I come in contact with daily as well as numerous other things, I've come to accept it as the risk I take every day going out into the rest of the world. Plus I make no attempt at hiding such information about my suit so not like anyone who wouldn't want to hug me couldn't avoid making that mistake with a little internet base research.
I apologize for any wording which might have made this pointed or directed at you personally as that was not what I intended. I was merely trying to state my personal stance on the same topic. I do personally feel very strong opinions contrary to your own which is why I chose to voice them.
I suppose though if I care enough to clean my suit thoroughly and still wear it out, I could always wear a big button on the suit which reads, "Hugger beware I'm a murrsuit."
And yes, the clothing that I use for that sort of thing doesn't get public use. though I can't say i have any article of clothing that would fall under that category. That stuff gets tossed to the side in the act, so I'm not in them when it's happening. My sheets are just that, my sheets, and they're only used by me and I don't turn around and use them for say...my son's crib. But that would be the only thing that has come into contact with something like that, but again, it's my bed. It's kinda obvious as hell what can go on in a bed. No one sits on my bed simply because I have a hang up about people hanging around where I sleep, but I do have a son, it's obvious I'm sexually active. I've told a friend not to sit on, or use a blanket before that was used for sex. Even though it was clean, I still informed them that what they were using to rub against their face was used for something like that. Simply out of respect and kindness. They can then choose how they want to act towards the item. nothing is hidden. Nothing is assumed.
And internet based research shouldn't be how people are informed. What person actively looks up the use of a suit before hugging it? For that matter, what child does so? That's not enough of an 'out in the open' it's more like 'it's there should you choose to look for it, but it won't be personally told to you' and to me, that falls under the same category.
I'm just not into the whole 'let's let our freak flag fly' when so many people just arent. They are allowing it to fly with those that are in the know, those people who aren't, or who have to actively do research the general public won't be arsed to do, aren't being waved the flag of the freak. It's being hidden behind people not telling the full story. That's the only thing I have a problem with. If it's so acceptable to do, then proclaim you do it. Wear a sign letting people know, inform people before they hug you what you do with the suit. That way then it's their choice how they wish to percieve you, and if they then choose not to touch, or hell even if they're not bothered by it, then no one's having something forced down their throat just because there not in the know.
Just because we've got different opinions, doesn't mean we can't be friends. We just have to respect each other's decisions.
I'm glad that though we have varying opinions you can still say we can be friends. I wish there were more like you! I do respect your decisions and thank you for allowing me to express mine, albeit if my opinions were poorly worded and implied certain things.
To friendship
I do wish there were more people out there that were okay with living and let live. We can all have our reasons for doing or not doing, but when it starts to seem like one person is more deserving of being treated humanely than another is where I draw the line. Just because we're not all of the same ideals doesn't mean we can't be respectful and kind.
To friendship!
i'm not cool enough to be around the younger ones :> i'm an old stoner nerd now.
But look around you.
Kids are getting shot, stabbed, hung and tortured for being gay, being transsexual or transgender, for being black, for just not fitting in.
Adults are being openly mocked for what they believe until they are driven to kill themselves.
Now, furries don't really have it that bad. There aren't group hangings of furry kids in high school that I'm aware of. But part of that just might be the precautions the fandom has been taking.
The only thing I can liken it to would be... open carry. It would be nice to live in a world where guns weren't used to kill or harm innocent people on a daily basis, and where we could wear our firearms on our hips and just. Have it be a safety precaution. But we can't. There ARE innocent people getting shot. Some people are rightly afraid of firearms, unfortunately.
Likewise, there have been furry rapists and furry animal abusers and furry child molesters.
Now, I'm not saying that's solely a furry issue and that FURRIES R BAD PEOPLE SHOULD BE SCARED OF THEM. Non-furry people are also rapists, animal abusers, and child molesters.
But innocent people are killed by knives everyday. More people are afraid of guns than of knives.
If you tell someone who dislikes guns that knives kill people, too, they're not gonna dislike guns any less.
If you tell someone who dislikes furries that other people outside the fandom are pedophiles, animal abusers and rapists, they're not gonna dislike furries any less.
I guess what I'm trying to say is.... It would be nice if we could just let our "freak flag fly", but for obvious reasons, we can't.
In all likelihood, bullying from people outside the fandom would skyrocket. And it isn't like you can tell the fursuiters and the murrsuiters that ONLY THEY CAN LET THEIR FLAGS FLY. If people with fursuit fetishes suddenly become open about what they do in their costumes, what's to stop zoophiles from becoming more open? What's to stop pedophiles from becoming more open?
It would be nice if the fandom would stop blaming its own little subcultures for all the problems that the fandom has, yes.
But in terms of self-control, I think we are actually nearing a reasonable level to keep ourselves pretty safe.
I think safety should come before being "edgy."
I grew up in the South, and have dealt with my fair share of intolerance.
I would rather be dead, than to live in fear for doing something as innocuous as fursuiting, or going to a convention.
You stand up to intolerance, or it will stand on you.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
Give me liberty, or give me death. I don't compromise with fascist street thugs.
If I had to choose between life and wearing a fursuit, I think I'd pretty readily choose life.
There was a drive by threat at last years MFF. I stood defiantly on the street corner. I do not like living in fear.
I'd like to be comfortable where I am too, but you're not gonna see me parading around in public in a diaper and onesie with a pacifier in my mouth and a stuffed animal in my arm. That would be me BEGGING to get sent to a goddamn hospital. I'm not gonna get the shit beat outta me over something like that, even if it makes me feel good.
I might get stabbed over homosexuality, but homosexuality is a part of who I am. It's a bit different than wearing baby clothes or a fursuit.
There are things I'd put myself in danger for. Things like being a furry or being an AB are not one of them.
Maybe no one's been shot over being furry, but people have been killed over equally trivial things.
I don't know if I'd call it an issue of liberty, though. It isn't like the government goes out and beats homosexuals to death. The government didn't murder Matthew Shepherd.
If I had to stand in front of a court and defend why I should be allowed to wear baby clothes in a court of United States law, I would. If I had to defend transgenderism and transsexualism, I would. If I had to defend homosexuality, I would.
Arguing that in front of a group of bullies is a little different, and not a situation I would elect to put myself in.
A fursuit, yeah. Probably.
BUT THAT'S getting into a whole other issue.
How prevalent are hate crimes in your area to incite this level of alarm from you?
These are all slippery slope arguments that have no precedence of ever happening.
Just because you could get hit by a bus does not mean you don't ever cross the street.
I also think you misinterpreted my initial message. You can let your freak flag fly exclusively at conventions. In the safety of the hotel. You don't need to go door to door here.
And people do let their freak flag fly in certain places. Maybe it's not as much as when you joined the fandom, but they still do it. And sometimes, it's just a little much.
I think the reason for the decrease is the discomfort it causes in the fandom. Sure, there are some people who are just open. But there are others who are alarmingly forward and pushy about what they're into. Just last year, someone I know had a guy pull down his pants at a fur meet and tried to have said friend touch his genitals. Said friend had never even met that guy before that night.
Incidents like that are probably why the fandom is trying to appear more normal.
However, I dont believe we will be up there with anime. I feel we're just two worlds in the same solar system.
I'm part of the new, younger generation, though I'm pleased to say that I joined through personal choice...well, I can't really explain that part.
I somewhat agree with what you say--I'm not saying at all that I am one of those pervy furries (no offence intended to anyone), and I tend to stay away from that, but I in no way intended for us to go mainstream. I too, wanted to be different, just nor in a bad way.
Being mainstreamed won't be fun. Conventions were already getting bigger, and you wanna know something? At TFF this year, around 10:00 PM a group of teenage girls that were NOT furries OR registered came waltzing in, walking around and thinking themsselves so cool, because they were running around at one of our conventions. Really?
I don't really understand what's up with the world right now, but I suppose there's nothing we can do about it now.
Everything else important has been said in comments, but thanks for putting this out there. Stay weird, my friends.
On a side note: My classes End a week from Monday and I'm not taking summer classes and want need to see if you'd still accept my voluntary help for a couple days a week over the summer.
for us to bully each other and mock others, kinda silly to act like the things we hate but I don't want to see
a six nippled suit with men howling around it either. I guess I'm on the fence. Let your freak flags fly but please
I'm not interested in seeing it unless it's private because I too am a freak. Just discreet.
I'm out as soon as that happens...
I remember when just *liking* anthropomorphics was enough. It doesn't seem to be that way anymore, at least on the surface. Granted, I have my own group of friends, people who don't care about such things and accept me, but still!
My brushes with the MLP fandom were initially awesome because in that fandom, just liking the show is enough. However it's gotten ensnarled with drama far worse than anything I've ever seen in furry, so I've pulled away from it.
I still love the fandom, but I think the cliquey nature of it needs to stop. We are all furs, we're a subculture, there's no reason we should be discriminating and being assholes within our ranks.
*snugs a cabbit*
I suit and it doesn't get a lot better. I get my 2 seconds of fame, but afterwards I always go "WTF?! Why does X have so many more pics than me from the con?! I'm not suiting right!" or "What? I passed right by that group of suiters doing a video. Why didn't I know?! I could have been in it!"
Trying to get into dance comp isn't helping that self-esteem part either. I still don't feel like I'm part of that group either since I feel like I need to make it into the finals at a large con to actually be 'in the group'.
Yes, cliques are in the fandom. I don't think there's any escaping that anymore. Any large group of people has cliques. I think it's part of our wiring and a self defense mechanism. The more small groups there are, the more change at least one small group will survive "x".
I don't think becoming mainstream will harm the uniqueness of the fandom. Anthropomorphic art created by furries is already pretty unique, and you don't need, what in my opinion is, behavior inappropriate for public spaces to make it more unique. With more acceptance, you may have a lot of new talent coming into the fandom, more avenues for creativity. And since the fandom isn't really based on any canon or corporate products, you're not going to see any giant corporation trying to control the fandom to make a buck. Remember, the fandom didn't start out with the raunchy stuff, that came later (or at least became more public later, I think weird kinks are always present in nerd communities, but maybe it's just been overexposed in the furry fandom). So I see no harm in having a little public image control of the fandom. If it makes the fandom bigger, with more art, more conventions, and more people to talk to, I'm all for it. Still though, when it comes to non-sexualized weirdness (such as nerdiness), keep at it furries, fan devotion can help stop corporate meddling.
(Of course, when I say mainstream here, I mean "nerd" mainstream, along the lines of D&D, anime, and MMORPGS. Furry isn't going to become "mainstream mainstream" for a long time, partly because the appeal of anthros is kinda niche, but that's one of the big things that makes our fandom so unique. So there's no worry of the fandom being dumbed down by Hollywood, EA, or Hasbro.)
I think the idea behind going mainstream here is that there are a lot more people out there interested in the fandom for one reason or another but because of the sexual deviancy can scare a lot more people away. If not our own hang-ups, the problem, especially with the way the economy is, that it can become a liability for most trying to find jobs. Not saying this is a good reason for it but it's a constant consideration.
Don't forget that things change with time because of the age of the people involved. (Not sure your age) but us 20 somethings, fresh out of college, are growing up in age of complacency. Being constantly barraged by parents and older folk saying "YOU GUYS ARE TOO ROWDY, STOP YOUR DRUGS AND SEX AND VIOLENCE". Over each successful generation change, the rebelliousness and capacity to embrace differences seems to have been dulled. What we perceive as different and unique is only a shadow of the 70's and 80's.
I'm guilty of being judgemental at cons. So have my friends. Honestly, it's not fair to go to a con where people feel like they can be among peers that wont judge and there's some asshole making comments. Truth is that most of us nerdy types have been picked on for some reason or another. Instead of saying "I went through this shit, and I don't want these others to have to deal with it", most are saying "I may be bad, but I'm not a ____________(insert some other nerdy subgroup)". It's what happens to any hobby or subculture. Human nature, creating hierarchies. Not to say that's an excuse for behavior but you can see it tends to sort itself out regardless. Someone makes better art than someone else, therefore they are put at a higher tier considering the criteria that dominates a culture.
I know I am rambling here. I agree with you in some regards but at the same time, I just try to shrug and say this shit happens. Make the fandom what you want for yourself. If you keep it weird, you keep it weird, if some people want to try and normalize it for public consumption, don't despair.
Cons in general have become less and less about the art or the weirdness and more about elbow-bumping and popularity contests. I should know, I avoided plenty of people at FWA because I actually DIDNT want to be known.
Two years to mainstream? I can see it. But I kind of don't want to.
The fandom as a whole -is- extremely judgemental of itself. And yet, it is also extremely accepting of itself. I find it to be an unusual paradox. I personally, thank the Fandom. I knew I was a furry even before I knew what a furry was. Back in high school, I was a wolf and a dragon. And over the many years, I've evolved. But when I was in high school, I had issues of a social variety. I was a magnet for all the bad things boys do to girls and it nearly made me phobic. I got to the point where I didn't like being around most people and I -really- did not like being touched.
Then, one day, one of my best friends, invited me to a holiday party at TigerPaw's house. It was my first Movie Night. And OH. MY. GOD. WHAT THE FUCK DID I SEE?! Not kidding. Over night I went from a fairly innocent little teenaged girl who was big into church and sweet and innocent and.. that night I saw some freak flags fly. I was introduced to the Beast Paint Videos, The Fursuit Sex videos, anime porn, Furry ART! and so many many people. You would think that I'd have been scared to death given my nearly phobic state of mind at the time, but I met my first real furry friends and they took me in under their proverbial wings, gave me the protection I needed to feel safe and the freedom to explore and I was absolutely hooked. I was scarred for life, but I was hooked.
Nothing will -ever- EVER compare to that first night. To those first few months as I went from an extreme introvert to a perfectly balanced Intro/Extrovert. I am one of those rare birds that the Fandom -fixed- my social issues. That being said.. I love the fandom, but I am also noticing something:
I'm getting old.
Simply put, I'm not the spry little chick I was 10 years ago. (Dating myself a little here) nd with that comes the natural loss of tolerance for the kind of stupidity that runs rampant in the younger generations. Its called OldFOgey Syndrome. I have it, I admit it. I try not to. But that was the one amazing thing I took home from FWA this year. By the end of the weekend, I felt young again. And that was -amazing-.
Yes, I do think Furry is heading MainStream. Maybe not in two years, but I can see within five. Simply put, we are so welcoming, we take anyone in and a lot of young folk are coming in. And since they didn't grow up with the stigma that we had 10 years ago (like the CSI Episode and Vanity Fair) they don't feel the need to be quiet about it outside of the fandom. And that turns more and more eyes our way. I don't think they are saying 'these people aren't freaks' I think they're just saying 'huh they're a freak like everyone else' . The outside world is becoming more accepting of abnormal behavior thanks to the rebels and freaks of our generation, which is what leads the next generation to being more mainstream.
jk, jk <3
I really appreciate this journal because it got so many people talking. Not just in the journal comments, but outside. I've had three instant messages about this so far, which I think is amazing. People talking is never a bad thing, I think. Very cool.
I tend to agree and disagree. I see furries becoming more popularized, and that's neither a good thing or a bad thing, just a thing.
When the anime thing became acceptable (I was a kid hooked on DBZ, sue me) and it was cool to be the kid in the class with the Leaf Village headband, what the public didn't really see were those otaku and such and such that pushed the risque stuff under the rug. You didn't see My Little Sister Can't Be This Cute everywhere.
Why? Because it was a subject matter that's too "weird"! And by weird, I mean that the general norm of society as a whole was not accepting/approving/what have you of it. So, the popular anime crowd adapted.
If you can get something past the censors (popularization of the subject) wouldn't you take some over the whole?
On another matter, there will always be hardcore kiddies that will take the hardedge to things saying "If you like the new SFW stuff, you never were part of <culture>". And that's their opinion; it's okay to just like the stuff out in the open. That's why it's there, isn't it?
The same kind of change is happening with the furry community, I think. It's becoming more welcome around the general public, so it has to be subjected to its filters.
There's always going to be cliques popping up, though. Some will fight tooth and nail to push ALL the Furry past the censors and that will just never fly. It didn't for comics, it didn't for films, it didn't for science. So yeah, some of those smaller sets of furrydom will have to be pushed under the bed. It just has to if you want at least some of this stuff to be accepted.
Though I do agree heartily; if you are freaky, by all means embrace it. Just stay safe doing in... If there's still violence over such petty things as nationality, religion, ideas, then there's always going to be violence for tolerance.
WhisperMiru
I don't think furry will necessarily be mainstream quite that quick but I'm sorry I prefer the somewhat whitewashed fandom. To each their own, but I'd love it if I could suit at a charitable event and do some good where I won't be treated like a pervert. Reigning it in a little for the sake of the media getting bored of us seems to me like a small price to pay.
I can recall one Firefighter house up north that had meets, barques, was introducing the general public to the fandom. Till 2 furs were bump grinding on a car, town shut the meeting down from happening there and turned a negative mind set onto its members. Suit or no suit we are all still human at the end of the day.
Mainstream, by no means... know of tons of young furs that parents have disowned them, kick them to the curb, known of furs that were beat up for being furs. My group have recently been working with a local wildlife place. We went there as a group and were just waring tails and ears, we were questioned by the main caretakers if we were furries. The reply was yes and the look the man got was one of oh boy. We immediately asked why the reaction and his reply was, that he lived in Vegas and not had only seen CSI, but had been to a hotel that had the ones there that were like the CSI furs. We explained yes the fandom like any other has people within it that do those things but not the majority are like that, that the fandom is about people that can come together that share the same interests and likes. That society says when you turn 18 , all you get is to come home set in the chair from hard days work, eat, sleep, and get up do it all over again for rest of life. Why at 17 one can like cartoons, dance, party, be merry, like to make people smile be happy, have a kind caring heart, suddenly get cut off at 18. Quote of most... is grow up.... be a adult... people for the most tolerate us... till they get to know what its all about, co-creating our own realities, not following some rubber stamped out map for the rest of our lives... we are people who like to think outside the box.
My first convention was FWA 2012... I was dancing and having a good time... Thought this is the place to be, no judgements can be me. Then I felt a energy was familiar with from high school and look up to see a bunch of " Jerks " from across the way pointing at me making fun. Took my whole world back to those days and in that instance ruined my day. Made me wish I had a suit so bad to hide behind. I see the school click, bully aspect around. But for the whole I did not, seen groups of friends from all around the world gather together in one spot to have a good time and party that share the same interests.
I do not mind anyone doing as they will, but society has setup its rules and expectations. Wanting to shock and awe the public ? Strip bear and go into your local mall. As for me and my group we want to show others the awe, but the one that says Wake up, you do not have to be some rubber stamped, cookie cutter thing, black and white world. You can have imagination, creativity and the like, life does not end at 18... I have seen some wonderful art coming out of the younger crowd that reaches to me on a soul level. You put someone in a suit and send them to a charity event and see the smiles the pics, the imagination come to life in the faces around you. Even the non suiters in the group waring their tails having a fun day being themselves. But like the fire station, CSI, ect... this extinguishes the small spark someone might have to be part of the fandom and brings judgement on the whole. Not that furs that have that life style are wrong, its the analogy one bad apple spoils the bunch mentality of the general public at large.
I think I know where your coming from, as the con goes, you see a few new suits, dances, dealers den, artists ally and is becoming cookie cutter stagnant. But I would beg to differ, everyday new people are exposed to the furry fandom and for most its their first time to a convention as mine was last year. To them it has not become a same old situation. And yes I know the aspect of just letting the 6 nipple suiter run around... But you have a parent that has brought there kid to the convention... how far is that kid going to be allowed to go into the fandom, or be kicked out of the house.
We are created individual souls to travel the universe and live many lives... in many different forms... I feel you on the aspect of hea why can I not go just be bear in a mall... humanity is no where near ready for it. Just do it and make the people take it... they will turn and fight. RCFM was canceled due to part no one can ware a mask in public... ok... so go on with the convention... but not having the suiters there those characters come to life, the Magic, of what a fur con is about... no one mostly would show to cover the booking of the hotel and expenses. No suiters at a convention, I would not be going, can find art plenty on internet, local raves to go to or make my own.
My wish for the fandom is to have kind caring people in it, that respect one another, that come together for a convention, help out around the convention, set up to take down... for everyone to have a great time, and give hugs all around. I see some, but majority show up, for self interests, eat, burp, be jerks, leave and complain... Peeing in the elevators, pooping in the elevators, pushing all the elevator buttons.. as example. Most time one or more of the elevators was down due to cleaning. The wonderful me first world. I am just one to think of wanting people to care about one another no matter what there choice in life is, as long as your happy and not making my world miserable I say go for it.
Take our bowling event, new people get exposed to the fandom, and some of them have seen CSI, but they see we are fun loving, caring, and not all about sex. They might go on to learn they themselves have a furry soul. Take same event and put CSI furs in there, then you might not be in the ally long. Same applies, if the community is shown as such and majority turn on all.. its effecting my world. I hate that your not getting the same experience you did at first... but know that there were room party's and panels that covered the subject. I was going up in the elevator, I had my tail on but was in a corner so it was not visible, to regular hotel guests got on the elevator and the next floor it stopped and on got a full leather doberman with their dom. They were going to a room party a few floors up... I liked seeing them not in a sex manner but just that hea they are doing there thing. They got off and the 2 women just went at it, oh my gosh, such and such... the next floor was mine.. I got off looked back as they were noticing my tail... and I looked back and said I know right... it made my night...
I just ask the furs out there that want to shock and awe to public to keep it in there homes, or personal parties and keep it out of the public for not only furs who do charities, but for those out there yet to discover the inner fur in them. I think the furry fandom is a great universal way to heal the world and get people to come together because it breaks the language barrier, and so many others. The frog in the pot analogy. Expose them real slow to the fandom, and before you know it they are cooked, and hooked...
Hugs to you...
Wrabbit
I know we have our fair share of freaks and geeks, which is all well and good! I'm all for letting your freak flag fly, generally, its what I miss about NYC from the 1980s-early1990s, the city has currently been whitewashed and "cleaned up", gentrified, and lacks most of its personality anymore which is a shame. On the other hand, I don't have to worry about getting mugged in the Bowery anymore! On the other hand, CBGBs and Marsbar are both gone. But I digress!
The freaks of the fandom are not going anywhere, I can assure you entirely of that. Just "browse" the front page without your filters on and you'll see that all sorts of fetishes are alive and well! As far as con-going goes, I have some pretty different viewpoints from you - I really don't enjoy being stuck in an elevator with a messy, smelly diaper-fur. I really don't enjoy turning a corner and seeing someone almost naked except for a leather dog-head in the middle of a hotel (in a leather bar, SURE. At Frolic, SURE. At the Folsom Street Fair, HELL SURE.) I don't like being hugged by fursuits that I KNOW have been used for sex, either (YUCK). I think its PERFECTLY FINE on the internet, where I can close the browser or disregard the content of imagery, or just avoid certain places altogether - I am the one with the control in the situation, I have the option to "opt out" if I want, as it were. Its the same with having fetish-specific venues, right? I can go to the Folsom Street Fair if I so choose, I can go to Frolic, I can choose to visit specific venues in which I know I will be exposed to those things.
But a furry convention is intended to be general fun for everyone, it brings all sorts of people from the fandom together, sort of like a parade or a holiday with the theme of "upright animals" (and even some not so upright!). You're bringing together people who may not otherwise cross paths, and may not WANT to cross paths - just because I'm at an event for comics, for example, doesn't mean I really enjoy seeing or interacting with the Nazi skinhead that may show up! So, to me, that means we need an air of mutual respect - this might include taking out or pushing away some of the more polarizing, fetish-specific aspects of the fandom. It doesn't mean they're gone, far from it! Again, look at FA's front page, or even Inkbunny, and you'll see they're ALL alive and well - BUT in the interests of making everyone feel comfortable and welcomed at a convention, where we are co-mingling physically (something a lot of us are unable to do for various reasons so we do it online and digitally primarily) it may be necessary. Also, it may be that people's tastes are changing. Some stuff may just need to go on behind closed doors - this doesn't mean its shameful or anything else, but there's an aspect of PRIVACY I think we desperately need and have needed for a long time. Furries are over-sharers, its part of our nature because we desperately need acceptance, almost all of us are outcasts in some fashion especially socially and so when we find like-minded individuals we can sort of go hog-wild...sometimes its even misconstrued as "part of who we are" as a person, when really whatever it is should be designated to a hobby instead (therians, for example, though I'll start a fight by saying that for certain). This phenomena certainly isn't limited to the furry fandom, far from it! But it is extremely prevalent among us.
So, I think my point is - let your freak flag fly, BUT be mindful that there are others around you, especially at conventions where they have no real choice but to physically be around you. It may make people uncomfortable and you either must accept this and do it anyway or you may have to tone it down for the interests of social graces. There's nothing stopping all of us from being a little more socially aware (I say, as I walk around in my FUCK YOU shirt, ha!). I personally think the fandom is going in a good direction (I do like dubstep though, so take that with a grain of salt I suppose!). I remember when I was 14 and 15 and desperately wishing there were furry books (that "how to draw furry" came out too late for me!) and movies and more places where I could see anthropomorphic animals. I think if I had a bit more generalized social support overall (i.e. "mainstream" support) I would have felt a little less alone among the larger social structure. And I think we could all stand to feel a little less alone among the larger social structure!
We do not glorify bullies, though. Just because a couple of popular people within the fandom have said "no," to a particular brand of fetishes, doesn't mean that they are now put on a pedestal, and that the fetishes are kept stifled for another day. I think that you misconstrue this positive media appearance for us purposefully trying to perpetuate a more tame fandom.
Further, why is a tame fandom a bad fandom? Just because the media wants to actually showcase the art and community that the fandom has to offer instead of the autismal neckbeards, doesn't mean that the fandom is becoming boring. Did you join the fandom because it was a good place for you to get your rocks off? If you did, then I have every right to think of you as shallow, as I joined the fandom for the art and the quirk, and stayed for the community and the friends I've made.
No, there's nothing wrong with being yourself in the fandom, but I think that you're taking things a tad too far, just because you've read a couple journals by a couple people asking why certain fetishes exist. If someone thinks somthing is weird, they have every right to do so. That's part of holding true to your convictions.
I'm sorry that you think that the furry fandom is "becoming mainstream" and becoming "more exclusive" which are two conclusions that in and of themselves contradict each other, but now that the fandom has been gentrified, there are more people that can come in and find the community that they align themselves with, and naturally, they're not going to agree with everything. It doesn't matter how many people call themselves 'otherkin' in this fandom, we're all humans, and we're going to act like humans.
If I wanted to sit around in a hotel room and look normal and drink, I could stay at home and save thousands.
Please keep it weird everybody! I still am a huge advocate of people all trying to run panels at furry cons again!
I'm okay with what's happening, I'm even more okay with the slow but steady social progressivism seeping into the fandom so that there is more respect for minority groups joining (racial groups and women mostly). Women especially are having a much easier time being incorporated into the fandom and no longer stick out for being "furry girls." That's fine with me :)
To start with, I have always been an advocate for exercising good judgment. This does not apply to any one area of the fandom, but everything. Fursuit sex or any kind of deviant but non-illegal sex is fine as long as you're discreet about it and not doing it in a place or a way that completely lacks good judgment. Granted this area is very much debatable as some people feel you ought burn a suit the moment it comes in contact with someone's naked body, but I think pretty much anyone can agree that the liberal use of discretion in any kind of sex is almost never a bad idea. But pretending it doesn't exist, or trying to shame people whose worst crime is doing something that you wouldn't do and enjoying it? That's not only going to create skepticism among outsiders who with any amount of research are going to figure out that you're full of shit, but we're falling into the trap that consenting adults shouldn't be able to do whatever the hell they want if they do it in the right way. Trying to force others to conform to one person or group's limited set of moral values is the same problem that's been impeding soclai progress for decades (or much longer).
Aside from sex, there is a reasonable set of unwritten rules for how you are supposed to act in public. Or even towards other people. There are always going to be plenty of socially maladjusted people in the fandom, and they will continue to go on no matter what we do, as there is this idea among new furries that the fandom is a mecca of complete acceptance and mutual understanding. In time everyone learns that many of the same things that will get you ostracized in a non-furry setting don't go over well in a furry setting either. You have to be considerate of other people, but you shouldn't have to conform your interests to theirs.
The problem starts when someone acts without discretion, being weird or sexual in a place or way it doesn't belong. Most of us upon seeing that would agree that it is poor judgment and smartly attribute it to the stupidity of the individual. But you have a small subset who take it farther and decide that such deviant behavior does not belong at all, and go on an ill-advised over-reaching crusade to "clean things up". The truth is, if everyone had the same intelligence and discretion, there wouldn't really need to be any media denials or public shaming, because it would be private where it ought to be.
It's not the weird people that anyone ought to persecute, it's the people who lack judgment and discretion. Be presentable in public, keep your fetishes to where they belong, respect personal space, don't be a hater... for most of us these aren't particularly complicated. It's always been the few that ruin it for the rest. What used to qualify as weird isn't as weird anymore, but what should drive our desire to up the ante shouldn't be the need to one-up or shock people, it should merely be creativity, doing something that makes us happy without hurting anyone else (except those who constantly decide to be offended by things which realistically don't affect them).
What still strikes me though is the demographics. It feels like of those I know who are past 30, very few stay in as a consistent member of the "community" at large. People I am around end up having a lot more going for them than "just" the furry fandom, and spending all their time and money going to each and every con they can afford. I think its an amazing community of weird awesome people with their own set of strengths and weaknesses, but I'm kind of worried that for most, it ends up being a phase.
Someone from the anime fandom actually started a for-profit furry con in [CENSORED(idk if I should even call them out right here)] that's going to happen later this year.
Last I checked no furries on staff except for supposedly the conchair, and no furry GOH's, even. But it's billed as a furcon.
The other part is the people running it had never even been to a furcon before. Some of us made some suggestions about how to make it more appealing to furries (especially the out of state ones), and we literally got laughed at.
The only furry socializing they do is showing up to furry meets with ads for their convention.
-Jack Kerouak "On the Road"
Drinks all around. Ask the bartender if you need a special cup
I have to admit though, I have a slightly conflicting opinion. I have always wanted the furry fandom to become a bit mainstream, mostly because it allows for more anthro art/symbolism in the media and general public. It's pleasing to see more goofy animal t-shirts and tails around.
But, I don't think it's just because of *our* actions (bullying, trying to be "normal") that this is happening, I think it's bound to happen as the furry fandom expands. "Weird" people were a majority in furry some years back, but are a minority in comparison to the rest of the general public. Just like Anime and other Sci-Fi fandoms, we will inevitably grow large enough to put weird furries back into a minority.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wanna know the real reason I didn't attend FWA? Not having the funds to do so was total bullshit: I could've gone because I have a lot of money saved up as of right now. It's simply because I still live with my parents, and as long as I do I have to keep mum or my relationship with my dad will fall again. I think maintaining a relationship with my dad is far more important than destroying his trust in me, and therefore I keep quiet.
Totally unrelated to the rest of my post: a lot of this fandom needs to get their noses out of the clouds. I'm really fucking sick of this community and everyone trying to outdo each other. Honestly, you know how I feel anytime someone thinks I'm going to like them better because they're an artist? Whoop-de-fucking-shit! If you're a total prick, I'm not going to have anything to do with you, and I will make it abundantly clear. I don't give a fuck if you're Uncle Kage, 2 the Ranting Gryphon, or Adam Wan: you will get an earful if you piss me off REGARDLESS of whether or not it matters to you. Lucky for me (and I mean that), none of those people will have anything to do with amoebas such as myself. I'm a small and insignificant member of the fandom. But any artist that has that attitude towards people like me needs to know, that without the small, unimportant people that drool over your artwork you would have no fanbase, and no reason to continue making art, because there'd be nobody to impress. Something to consider. I'm not targeting anyone in particular, but this is something that bugs the shit out of me. Also, the cliques. My fucking GOD the cliques! People who hang out with only their species need to get their heads out of their asses! You're a lemur? Sweet! Let's talk! Not a lemur? Psh! Whatever man, I like a bit of diversity. As funny as it sounds, it's pretty much species discrimination.
You have hit the nail on the head. There is nothing wrong with being popular, but there is EVERYTHING wrong with being a douche bag about it. Chances are, no matter how popular anyone has become, they started off on the bottom rung of the social ladder too.
It's hard for me to imagine parents that would be truly be surprised by most things. my mother was a snooper, but she was also painfully apathetic. Anytime I admit anything that most peoples parents might be surprised to learn, I usually get a "well duh..". She is a mom, she already knows. My mother also hangs pictures of my costumes in her office. In her perspective, it is my living, and I am productive, and creative with it.. she also knows about the sexual stuff too... but, again, it's simply not a big deal. Not hurting anybody, just odd.
But, soon enough, you will move out, and you can be as odd as you like.
As for your second point. I don't know exactly how I feel about that 100%. I am a little torn, as I am starting to become at least a little well known. I think that putting anyone on an elevated plane of importance simply by FA rank is absurd. People should be critical, and even though a popular person thinks one way, we should not assume that is the correct way. Popularity should not nullify critical thinking. On the other hand, I sometimes think people create their own distance form popular people. Have you ever walked up and tried to talk to them? People also misinterpret not returning a watch, or being thanked for a fav as elitism, or lack of gratitude. It stands to reason that if more people are talking to you at the same time, you might miss something, or simply not have the time to get back to them. I think from their perspective, they have the time to say it, so why would I not have the time to respond?
So, I guess I am still a little torn. As when you get to a certain point of popularity, there seems to be no real way to not eventually piss somebody off. I think it comes with the territory to an extent.
it seems that now it's just a popularity contest, not a homey feeling. I'm being alienated because I'm not one of those dub-step loving spencer kids.
i couldnt agree with you more. The hypocrisy in this fandom by those who practice these actions n such then turn around saying "oh i completely agree. this is wrong.. n blah blah blah", is just unfathomable.. i see so many that sit there making fun of awkward, untalented, strange people, then turn around behind their mask saying its wrong n ppl shouldnt do it.
i may be one that loves dubstep, but i see this happening so much... its just becoming cliquey...i do everything i possibly can to not seem like that type of person. everyone deserves a chance.
(posted on the wrong account above)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYdZSdCIkz4
But in all seriousness, I have known about the fandom since 1996 and actively participated since 2002. It was different back then. I remember 40-50 suiters at anthrocon my first con. Those folks didn't suit to be popular or the "cool" crowd. It was more about their intense interest in suiting and a lot of attention getting. Things have changed, the fandom is much larger, there are many groups to associate with and hang out at cons, quite the diversity from "back then". Is it mainstream? Maybe. I recall a fursuit panel at Oklacon one year asking suiters and soon to be suiters why they wanted to have a fursuit. Literally half of them wanted one because of the CSI episode. Given the maker that made 3 of their suits, it was obvious what the reason was... But still, even if good or bad press has drawn some folks to the fandom, or put a spotlight on it, I'd still say it's far from boring. The parties are still crazy, the events are fun at cons, and overall, most folks find a place to fit in. Personally I still like the smaller cons and the "how it was" feel they seem to have over the mega cons. But that's largely since I don't have the time to be social online much and that seems to detract from being social out of suit at cons. My biggest problem with the fandom overall is folks treating each other as people. We aren't a suit, we have characters, but those aren't who we are. It annoys me when you try and and socialize out of suit and get the "who the F*** are you?" attitude. Then an hour later get the "OMG, I can't believe I'm meeting you" attitude once in suit or as a character/performer. People used to see it both ways a bit more in the past and I feel some of that social aspect is lost without a larger amount of online interaction.
The closest thing I saw was "Bring out the men" being sung during a masquerade (can't remember which con last year) that well, was pushing the lines and was definitely uncomfortable for some of the audience, myself included. I was extremely relieved that the performer got a large audience response when he finished. My concern was an awkward half-clap response.
But yes, this video live would be waaay over the line today, even possibly for a panel "after dark". It's obvious Jeff's post points to the fact that this sort of stuff SHOULD happen at cons if people want to perform that way, even if it's relegated to some 18+ only panel at 1am. Right now I'm not even sure this sort of thing happens in "private" room-parties anymore.
"When I was in kindergarten all the kids in my neighborhood would meet at a certain playground near my school. The playground itself didn't change much; a slide, a jungle gym, some swings, and a collection of horses on springs that sometimes worked & sometimes didn't.
Those were cool, but it was the expectation of playing with other kids that got me excited to go. Whether I realized it or not there was a sense of democracy there and I was ignorant of or unimpressed by the inequalities that existed. Anyone could come & everyone was a potential playmate. "Hi my name's Billy. I like your fireman's hat. I like fire trucks. You want to hold hands?"
It felt safe. It felt like there were rules out there & if push came to shove (literally), someone to enforce them, & no matter what you could always leave. After all it was just a playground. Home was where your real life was.
...
Throughout the beginning of elementary school it continued to be about place. Hordes of kids were gathered together in the school yard & at Chucky Cheese & at birthday parties. Many of them I didn't know, but it didn't matter, playground rules applied.
Then something changed. It may have been because I was spending more time out there at those places, often unsupervised. I was more invested in what happened on the playground & when I left those experiences followed me home & home no longer seemed as separate & it had less potential to comfort me.
It may have been when Jason Addison told everyone that he'd gotten Karen Beady to lift up her shirt & that she had VD. I didn't know what that meant, but I knew what her nickname would be. It didn't feel so safe anymore. Maybe it never had been safe. That playground openness seemed open to attack.
...
Sometime in adolescence there was a dramatic swing from playground to posse. A shared interest in fire trucks wasn't enough to start holding hands. You needed to make sure that someone had your back.
Place became less important. The context & safety my small group of friends provided could move fluidly between the Dairy Queen parking lot, the mall, or a party. It was a big swing from open to closed, but it allowed us to navigate the world with some sense of comfort.
Playground to posse: What’s your quack pack?
The more mainstream the fandom gets, the more blended with the public it becomes, and ebbs away that welcoming bubble of acceptance that the fandom was known for. I think that the larger and more mainstream the fandom gets, the more the fandom opens you up to public scrutiny, and it puts a greater importance on having a closer group of people that you can trust, rather than just having a common interest with an open group.
(Source: http://www.zefrank.com/thewiki/the_show:_12-14-06 )
Simply put, With the way our lives in the western worlds are so hopelessly interconnected with what happens on the internet. It's a matter of being ever vigilant to keep what we do publically, and privately online separate. How often have you all heard of a person being fired, never hired, or passed over because of a facebook/google search?
I work in a rather professional industry, (along with many other furs I'm sure) and it would be professional suicide for me if 'furry' was associated with /anything/ I do. So, with that in mind, it comes as no surprise at all that there has been a subconscious undercurrent of social restructuring within the fandom. People want their cake and they want to eat it too. To go out on the weekend with their ears and tail, and still be accepted at work on the weekdays without any fear of unfavorable cross contamination via social networking.
As more and more people sign up and get their furry card stamped, the 'lowest common denominator' will fall until it reaches a level that the number is digestible to the maximum number of people. This is completely unavoidable.
-Kalte
(been involved in this mess since 99')
they sell hoodies and onsies with cat ears and faces on them at my work!
I bought a hoodie with cat ears and stripes on the sleeves, a face on the front at stitches too!
You can buy costume tails at HOT TOPIC. i shit you not
I mean, everyone has seem those hats with animal faces on them too!
The next generation is gong to have a LOT of furries.....
I say we keep the fandom clean. Or at least let people know that sexual aspects are separate from the fandom proper. It's not fair to people like me who don't engage in fursuits sex or traipse around in bondage gear and/or diapers.
I am a fan of anthropomorphic animals. That is not an invitation for sex.
For those that do like those other things, there's a time and place for everything, as they say. But I don't want to be punished because of something for which I am not to blame.
Indeed, one should never be afraid to seek happiness. Moreso at conventions, because one's time is so terribly limited- hesitate, and you may miss your chance. Besides, you paid to be there, so live it up! That's what I say.
Great post, I'm happy other folks are thinking about the same things.
Not everyone became part of the fandom for the "weirder aspects". I was personally drawn by the concentration of creative, self willed people with interesting ideas. To me it was about art (clean), story telling, character building, self expression by means of all the previous. Sex didn't actually figure into it at all for me until I started hanging around other (male) furries, and so I explored it and learned to enjoy it, but initially only as a way to be included.
Yes, the fandom may be changing because people want to be accepted, but it's also changing because the people that are drawn to it as time goes on are drawn for an increasingly diverse number of reasons.
Another part of the change I see is the shift to it being simply a popularity contest. I think the way social media works these days is largely at fault for this. Back on yerf, VCL, elfwood... there was sometimes room for comments, but things like likes/favorites didn't really exist. My problem is that the world builders for the fandom (any person that creates anything here) have lost sight of why they were creating in the first place. It's less about expression and more about how many watches/favorites you can get. To me, this leaves a lot of the art feeling vapid.. completely bereft of emotion. That's just not the type of art I'm interested in.
Just my 2c.
You're right, I did miss the point to some degree. I guess it's a bit frustrating to be on the other side where I'm perfectly tolerant of what the freakiest of freaks want to do (and I love them for their expression) but end up feeling like I'm being hated on for "changing the fandom".
However, I guess we basically agree on the same point and were trying to say the same thing. Popularity and acceptance is more important than expression. We both want what the fandom used to have more of, which is radical self expression despite what others think of it. :)
not too bad but i think that's the deal
Though I have to admit, as someone who has been in the fandom for 21 years and went to his first furry con in 1995, I find it very funny (and just a little bit wistful!) that you think of 2006 as "the good old days"!! ;3
No, but seriously. A very good post, and I agree with your sentiment. There was something freer, perhaps, that doesn't feel exactly there any more. I'm glad it's not just me.
Were we REALLY that bad? I remember making fun of people more for the tactless way they went about doing things.
You know for a fact I'm not really in a position to talk about people doing weird shit ;3
Still, using tact and not becoming a fetish-fest doesn't equate to loss of identity.
Furry was ALWAYS about an appreciation for anthropomorphic animals. I, for one, am glad it didn't turn into Folsom Street Fair.
That would be a loss of identity in itself.
Can't we have some common ground and be into our own weird shit while maintaining a sense of tact and common decency?
Haven't been to a fur con, was interested in going. The main obstacle being that I don't have a hotel group.
btw, Best journal I've read in a long time.
And if you really believe babyfurs were EVER “tolerated” in general you are very much mistaken!
I think it's pretty evident that in many regards, "babyfurdom" isn't that accepted. It is a niche portion of our particular fandom. In the sense that furry is an all-inclusive "identity" based on throwing on a metaphorical furry coat of paint, AB/DL is going to have its antagonists who bring up the possibility of going to browntown. However, I will argue, in support of Media's argument from a different angle, babyfurdom and/or AB/DL is becoming much more commonplace in furry now and much more accepted than it had been before. It seems more and more people I know these days are either identifying as AB/DL, babyfur, kidfur, etc., much in the same way that people are owning up to be into pup play, bondage, etc.
I think it comes down to exposure. Folks like you, some of the dancer furs, and so forth are becoming more vocal and public about who you are, and this leads to normalization through exposure; people either get over it due to exposure effect, or some becoming more polarized. I see it as the first rather than the latter.
I guess what i am mainly saying is that while these "strange" and "weird" interests might not be everybodies fetishes, they should not have to feel alienated, i literally had a customer bring me into private stream because he was ashamed of the art he is into, some of it included humanxfurry which is ridiculous! I told him never to feel ashamed around me, i am not here to judge. ^.^
Being so easy going and friendly is why I'm just so darn popular. Errr I mean... you don't know me, nobody knows me! *hides*
The "furry fandom" is a lot like the "anime fandom" or "sci-fi fans" in that it's really just a collection of niches grouped under a very broad umbrella. Some of these niches are fetishistic and sexual; many aren't. These niches range from an appreciation for a certain kind of art (drawn, photographic, poetic), an identification with a certain cultural/racial subgroup (African-American, Latino, language groupings), a mutual affiliation for a certain sexual fetish, a spiritual connection (the idea of totem animals, lycans, etc), to many others. Most people exist in multiple niches and don't have a problem crossing from group to group. In a sense, I don't think furries are any different from any other internet-driven subculture in the level of sexual tension. Maybe it's a little more obvious than in some other genres, but the furry fandom isn't unique in having a strong sexual subtext in some areas. My guess is that furries have become more closely associated with sex because of normative assumptions about other fandoms. For example, the sexual commodifying of women that occurs incessantly within anime as a fandom is viewed as "normal" and thus less deviant than the sexual commodifying of female anthros, which is viewed as "abnormal" and thus worthy of special attention. The actual occurrence of fetishizing is roughly the same; it's really just a trick of the mind that it appears more prevalent in the furry fandom. There is also the widespread perception that because the furry fandom is still "underground," it's a safe haven for people with alternative sexualities (especially homosexuals). I don't think anybody really has the statistical data to say whether or not these perceptions are true, one way or the other. But perceptions are what matters in the court of public opinion, and in that case, furries are definitely still "deviant" to a lot of people in a way that other, more mainstream fandoms are not.
Because I haven't been as intimately involved in the fandom as you have for such a length of time, I'm obviously not fit to judge on whether or not a metamorphosis has really occurred. All I can compare FWA to is my extensive experience at anime and sci-fi conventions, and my interviews with other furries. While there are certainly some parallels, furries are still far outside the mainstream compared to those events. While from a statistical perspective, the fandom has certainly grown, I don't think it's in danger of "crossing over" any time soon. Much of that has to do with the lingering impression of the fandom as a purely sexual enterprise.
The bottom line is that I want to continue to study this fandom from a critical theoretical perspective, incorporating the best in contemporary thought from Deleuze, Foucault, Derrida, Kittler and others. I want to construct a discourse that situates the development of the fandom within the wider cultural milieu of Westernized, industrialized societies. And I want to build a rhetorical approach that allows me to adequately describe the fandom to outsiders without resorting to revealed knowledge (i.e., "you know it when you see it.") There hasn't been enough serious sociological and historical study of these kinds of post-modern subgroups based on cultural affinities (furries, anime fans, etc.)
I only started going to cons back in 2009 with Ohayocon... as you expect it mainstreamed anime con. It was rather tame, they also have lost a lot of the old otaku who drool over half naked cosplayers and stand in line for the hentai panels. Ok that still happens.... But yes a lot are youth that are fresh in that fandom as well. Sci-fi cons used to be the same way.
Looking at the state of things I look at the last few cons and then this past FCN. I think... wow there are a lot of what I deem kids. I in the right light at 27 still can be a kid to many. I mean the barely 18 year olds who act like maniacs just like at anime cons. FCN limited registration at 18+ which honestly brought a lot of people that previously was not there before. It is a "party" con but even that seemed rather mild to me.
I wouldn't know a true party if it started all around me and slapped me in the face with a empty beer bottle.
I'm not really sure what to expect in the future. As more cons realizes who they cater to adults who want to have a relaxing weekend to party or dare I say start a floor fursuit cuddle fest, I think they will adapt.
All I can tell you is that the anime hentai panels and all the anime porn in dealers room have only become more popular and it isn't hurting their image. The fandom will reach an point were acceptance makes it easier to hold cons, be in public.... but also reach a point where it becomes so common no one cares about the fetish things even if it is very very little at all.
I whole heartily agree. I think some of us are trying too hard to be seen as "socially acceptable", but at the same time, it drives them away from their own selves, making him unhappy in the end. All I'm saying is that you don't have to tell someone you're a normal person, because that's just dull. Being part of the furry fandom is a unique experience, that should be recognized as a part of you. For example, whenever I tell them about my trips across the US, I tell them I have friends all around the continent. If they want me to go into more detail, I mention furry, because it's who I am and that's how I met them, and they find that interesting and unique to hear about myself.
I could see people still finding plenty of ways to express the 'weirder' side of themselves, with true healthy abandon, without making it an extensive part of a convention where such a thing is very likely to make many attendees very uncomfortable. I understand how it might appear to be dumbing ourselves down to improve a media image, but that's far from the only reason. And yes, there are kinks that some furs decide to express aloud (often in an apparent extreme defiance) that make me uncomfortable. I have to make a decision whether I want to associate with them for that reason.
Quite honestly, as an artist, I see the potential of more subtle artistic exploration of the sexuality of furry characters as a beautiful thing; by contrast, the rather crude extremes that some have gone to might dullen the meaning of such exploration. This is similar to how some artists might lament the loss of subtlety in art surrounding any sort of romance or the human body in the face of a mass oversexualization of modern culture.
The way I explain furry obscenity to other people is this: /every/ culture and every people has kinks. Because furry characters are a base part of an identity, whether those of the people behind them or as somehow separate from themselves, it is understandable that those characters would take on the entire breadth of kinky possibility that any person can have. The furry fandom is neither defined by nor equated to these kinks, it just fits into any you might happen to have as a person. Many see it as an open forum to flaunt those interests, which gives way to the image presented.
Also... Because I myself am a dog spirit and I'm /not/ afraid or ashamed of it, I wear a collar everywhere I can and answer any questions about it frankly. I don't want to keep such an important part of myself a secret anymore, and frankly the arguably reckless public funkiness of many furs can make things difficult for me. When I explain what I like to do in addition to that spirituality, explain the furry-related media I create, I have to hope silently or aloud that they won't go straight to Google Images and turn up some kind of Doug Winger crap that makes me look like a repressed kinky bastard when I have nothing to do with that sort of stuff. That's not fair, is it?
I fully respect and relate to the enjoyable experiences you describe at your first convention. It's good to be able to revel in whoever you are or whatever you like without fear of public condemnation. But for those of us who aren't directly interested in that, especially if many of those things make us uncomfortable, making such an equation can be needlessly harmful.
A couple of real trends are taking place, though. As 'cons get bigger they become less intimate, and people tend to take the cool, freaky stuff in private, where only their friends get to see it. And part of that growth has involved coopting several marginally-furry youth cultures. (IE: the pac sun kids, who mostly only come for the dances) But don't worry about those kids. A few of them will become like us and stick around, and the rest will find somewhere more appropriate to go dance, once they turn 21.
Finally: if you find that the 'con that you're going to is too clean, you're probably going to the wrong one. My local 'con, for instance, is basically known as the babyfur 'con now. So it just depends on which one you're talking about.
If I may quote myself, I said "My point is simply that our goal should not be to strive for acceptance. We should strive to be ourselves first. If that mentality becomes mainstream, than so be it."
Maybe it's because I work for Disney, maybe it's because I'm a minimalist, maybe it's because I'm kind of snob sometimes... but yeah, gotta disagree.
" My point is simply that our goal should not be to strive for acceptance. We should strive to be ourselves first. If that mentality becomes mainstream, than so be it. "
"This is a tricky matter.
Certainly, you can't have all of your cake AND eat it too. If you want to be tolerated, liked, and/or accepted, you usually have to compromise with people and/or the outside world to an extent.
Many furries don't like that many people associate the furry culture with things like sexual perversion, general creepiness, drama queening, bestiality, and/or pedophilia. Many furries rightly and understandably resent the fact that furrydom is seen as the place where all the creepers and rejects go, after they've been booted from everywhere else.
But, it's also understandable to not want your unique, expressive, fun culture to become homogenized, domesticated, or dumbed down.
This is why a lot of people say they preferred Times Square back in the "Old Days."
I've heard people say the same about Gay Culture, too--that gays are becoming like all of the other hetero yuppie suburbanites, and are losing their cool, campy, creative, kinky edge.
I'd say, because furry has had such a catastrophically bad rep in the past, it's good that people like Uncle Kage and the like are "policing" the fandom and making it very clear that the culture has a whole doesn't endorse or encourage creepy-ass shit. Because Joe Public doesn't always understand the distinction between ENCOURAGING something, and just ALLOWING it, sometimes the Kages of the world have to be extra strict, to avoid all confusion and controversy.
Well, and there are some behaviors which should never be applauded or tolerated--especially in the public sphere--because they're just plain unethical, harmful, or obnoxious. Call me judgmental, but I think someone who puts dirty diapers in the microwave and then wears them should always raise eyebrows when they choose to share that in public. There do need to be social boundaries and social standards.
But, there may come a time when we'll have to make some corrections in the other direction, in order to retain what makes the culture unique and fun. I certainly don't want Furry to become so homogenized that it ceases to mean or signify anything.
I hope that as Furry matures and grows over time, it becomes better at presenting a general palatable, acceptable public face that people come to recognize and accept, while allowing quirky subcultures within the larger furry culture to still exist and thrive."
And
"I just don't like it how some people want to turn the furry fandom into their personal fetish fest, for all the world to see. Keep it in the bedroom please. The journal depressed me. Please tell me not all furries at cons share this outlook, wanting the sexual stuff to be in your face and "fuck everyone, I'm a furry." When did furry become a splinter radical "LGBT" group (I use quotes because I don't like associating fursecution with actual abuses faced by LGBT people)? If people want to make this into some sort of kink show party, that's fine, I just won't hang out with them and instead talk to artists, suiters, and writers to get some tips on, well art and performance. And to be a goofball maybe. But 6 nippled suits? What the hell does that have to do with enjoying anthropomorphic animals, besides the superficial anatomy of such animals? What does likening dirty diapers and wearing them in public have to do with furry? I don't think the fandom is changing, I think the fandom is healing.
I'm in no way being a prude. If you like the kinky stuff, good for you, wave your freak flag. BUT...here's the catch. There's a time and a place for freak flag waving, and public places, or general access websites ain't it. I follow the belief that sexual stuff is private, as, well, it's an intimate thing. And maybe you have a little group (or big) that likes to share some, well, weird porn. Ok. But do you really think it is necessary to act out the fetishes in your porn in public settings? And I'm not talking about Leather Pride fests or the like. I'm talking about general furry conventions, where non-furries may be walking around to see what the fandom is like. I don't think people should have to be turned away as a result of extremely immature behavior on the part of some of the attendees.
It's stuff like this that makes me wary about talking about being a furry. I shouldn't have to treat the fandom as such, but when you have so many people deciding, "oh, it's my special kink, wanna see?" it makes me uncomfortable. And I don't want to strain the relationship with my parents, or alienate myself from the rest of society. It makes me wary of going to cons. I don't want this fandom to become a breeding ground for the furry version of otakus, as in, "I'm currently married to my waifu, Lola Bunny."
Lastly, let me say something for everyone to hear: being gay and being a pervert are NOT, I repeat NOT, the same thing. So for god's sake furries, stop using LGBT labels as an excuse to be perverted. It really hurts the image of LGBT people who are facing real discrimination out there. Furry isn't supposed to be the letter F for the LGBT spectrum. You can make it that way if you want, but it's not that in general."
"You may think I am some ornery old man, who wants to maintain "the way it used to be", That we should avoid normalcy at all costs. If you think that, you are mistaken. I also am not advocating you go banging each other in public parks. I am certainly not advocating anything illegal. My point is simply that our goal should not be to strive for acceptance. We should strive to be ourselves first. If that mentality becomes mainstream, than so be it."
Silence me if you must, but I advocate a cleaner fandom, not a yiffier one.
The olden days have come and gone, and nothing will ever be like what it used to be.
But I would like to state that, even though we bitch and moan that were being called perverted and whatnot, im pretty sure that the most popular and well know artists draw yiff. So in reality its our fault.
We don't need a "shock value". I find it ridiculous good sir that you would want to "shock people", I for one wouldn't wont people living in fear of us.
Take anime for example, they can have cons willy nilly but if a furry con comes into two, people lock their doors and close the curtains, thus more of a push for normalcy.
Lets not forget the great NJ BBQ where two suiters fucked on the hood of a fire chiefs car and ruined a fund raiser, oh thats lovely for our image.
Lets not forget all the suiters who think their invincible bending over and sexually posing at photo shoots, cute and clean? I think not, nice way to ruin your own image there.
Oh and lets not forget my own self porn test. So I did a test, I posted some porn, 3 hours of posting 900 views, next day posted a clean image, barely scratched 100, think somethings wrong here.
going mainstream will pull the weight off of alot of people shoulders, wouldn't for once you like to be able to walk around, as normally as an anime cosplayer would, I myself would like to be able to walk around in suit and not be looked at like im odd.
Sure it sounds big and scary going mainstream, but I don't see us going mainstream until we cut things out, heres some points.
1) Less Yiff.
2) Less Sexual Everything
3) Don't like these statements, don't comment
4) Murrsuit.info.
5) Saying yiff is just art and I like it for the art aspect, well that's fine and all but you could volley points till your blue in the face at my bunker and its still porn.
and thats my statement. :v Pertaining to this journal or not that's my statement.
Ps: Lets not forget that there's too much yiff.
I said, "You may think I am some ornery old man, who wants to maintain "the way it used to be", That we should avoid normalcy at all costs. If you think that, you are mistaken. I also am not advocating you go banging each other in public parks. I am certainly not advocating anything illegal. My point is simply that our goal should not be to strive for acceptance. We should strive to be ourselves first. If that mentality becomes mainstream, than so be it."
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
Needless to say, I did not necessarily join this fandom to become cool, or become "in the norm" so to speak, I did it because I found that there were people who enjoyed animals just as much as I, a kid who grew up at our local nature center where you saw all kinds of critters! I found my muse here, and I find happiness whenever I draw anthropomorphic critters.
From what I've seen of the past, though, furry has really "grown up." Both on an artistic and emotional level. Leaving it at that.
As far as mainstream goes, I have found it QUITE to be mainstream. From what I can tell the anime fandom has dispersed a bit into our own. Not saying that we are the anime sort, but I get the feeling that quite a few anime fans are also furries (arguably, me) and have sold furry oriented items and anime conventions and such.
I can also say for sure that I have found cliques in this fandom, and at times I have felt somewhat left out from the fun. Hell, my first year at AC, I felt totally depressed the first night because I saw so many people with so many friends!
However, I was just a kid (still am) and found a few nice people who I made good chat with later on who I hold close to my heart, even though I don't talk to them much anymore.
I'm speaking on behalf of personal experience here, and I realize that these aren't cold hard facts. Just from what I've observed as a young artist!
I am not too sure what she was talking about, but I am virgin so I wouldn't know.
she also see's it as sort of a popularity contest.
Jesus man, that's going to stick with me for a while.
I am okay with this.
Well... It's been (more than) 2 years. Are we mainstream yet?
We're certainly not pop culture, but it seems like furry is well on its way toward being advertised on TV and sold on t-shirts at Wal-Mart. I don't like it, but... what can be done? Can anything be done, and should anything be done? It already feels like furry is at best just barely tolerant and at worst sanctimonious, if you have no circle of friends to start from already.
Of course there are fringes where all the weird-things-you-didn't-even-know-existed are at, and the fringes are aplenty - but in the middle it really, really seems like you're under the microscope of public opinion, both of the general populous and the furry community. It seems like more things are being pushed to the outside, and that makes them harder to find and thus they stagnate because of that (no new things coming in any more).
I apologize for being a stranger replying to an old post, and hope you are well since things have been inactive here for some time. I had to get this off my chest somewhere.