FA+
Shop
Followup to previous journal / clarification
12 years ago
In life, The People are represented by two separate yet equally important groups:
The Fates, who investigate all the possible alternatives to 'Joy';
and the forces of Chaos, who defile the fabric of The Tapestry Of Life.
These are my stories.....
The Fates, who investigate all the possible alternatives to 'Joy';
and the forces of Chaos, who defile the fabric of The Tapestry Of Life.
These are my stories.....
Might want to read this journal to be sure you're up to speed on where I'm going here.
Reminding folks that I live in New York, USA, my highest concern regarding my little one's camp out is that it's being held at a location that claims itself to be a, "Bible Conference and Retreat Center".
There is a little-known clause in our country's by-laws referred to as 'The First Amendment' - some of you might have heard of it. It says, in part, and paraphrasing here, that the government is not allowed to promote or hinder any religion. This has typically been refereed to as, "The Wall of Separation between Church and State".
My highest concern is that if at this "Bible Conference and Retreat Center" the promotion of Christianity (or, really, ANY religion) is promoted or taught By The Staff then they would be breaking the Law - in this case at a Federal Level.
To offload some responses and my answers to them....
... try and find out if this is going to be a Religious experience by talking to a teacher or who ever you can and not send the little one if you're worried you'll have to pull her out any moment.That's exactly what I'm working on; getting my thoughts together to write a letter and get information and assurance from the people who are supposed to be in charge of this. Because once it's in writing, at least, if there IS a problem I have something to back me up with if I need to press the issue.
If you don't want your kid to be raised christian it's easy enough to tell the teachers, "Hey, she doesn't need to stand up during this," or whatever.
It's not gonna hurt her to be in the room while people offer a corny prayer. This just sounds like you're being a dick for the sake of being a dick.The problem is not simply, "let them have thier fun and you Atheists can just wait outside while we have our fun", it's the legality of it all. At the Federal Level it would be illegal while at a moral level it would be demeaning, exclusionary and simply wrong. A 5th grader doesn't need to be told, "You're going to be left out because we believe in a Sky Daddy you don't".
As for being a dick? I'm not at all upset you said that, only confused why you might think that. Protecting my daughter (hell, her whole CLASS) from someone who MIGHT be looking to break her/their First Amendment Rights as a US Citizen hardly seems a dick-move to me.
Question - WHY is a secular public (public?) school going to a "bible conference and retreat center"? that DOES sound like a problem that needs to be addressed.Agreed - and its one I was wondering about also. IN AN OF ITSELF.... it may be a simple thing; maybe it was just a location they were able to secure for the best price for the time wanted.... and the event will be staffed / managed by the school teachers themselves. So long as they keep to a secular event, I'm OK, if squeamish about, where the event is being held. I still plan on writing a letter of disapproval later regardless, just to make sure they know that I think they're skirting a BIG issue... but as stands, pending further problems, I'm willing to wait-and-see a bit.
I'd say not worry about it. It's just one event, after all.And 'just one murder' is still murder, if you'll pardon the indelicacy of what I'm saying. Breaking the law is still breaking the law. Its not a matter of 'WELL, just let them have one little bit...' After all, at what point, then, does the law step in to protect those that need the protection most if not at the first sign of attack?
... If they require that they must pray at mealtime ask if your child can choose to maintain silence out of respect to their custom and if they say all must participate then you have your answer....And the problem with this is, as before, there should not even be a issue like this coming up. I already told her that if the 'thanks' is to have everyone think about and appreciate where all the food came from (the kitchen staff, the farmers, the grocery workers, etc) then I'm all for it! But if there's even ONE mention of a god, then that cross the line and kicks dirt across it to boot.
To help you all along with how concerned I was, I would ask you to read the "Doctrinal Statement" of the facility, as located at http://www.odosagih.org/content.cfm?id=295. I have done no editing at all.
I. We believe that the Bible (66 books, Genesis - Revelation) is the Word of God to man, written by men divinely and plenarily inspired, and that it is the supreme, infallible authority in all matters.
II. We believe in God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, measureless in power. We rejoice that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men, that He hears and answers prayer, and that He saves from sin and death all who come to Him through Jesus Christ.
III. We believe in the pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ. We also believe that the Son, Jesus Christ (Messiah), was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, and sinless in His life. He is atonement for the sin of men by His substitutionary death. He was buried, arose bodily from the grave, ascended into heaven, and is presently at the right hand of the Father interceding for believers.
IV. We believe that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and regenerates, indwells, seals, teaches, and fills all those who receive Christ.
V. We believe that the Second Coming of Christ for His ransomed church is imminent, the next great event; that at Christ’s revelation to the world after the great tribulation, He shall set up His literal, worldwide Kingdom and reign over the world for at least a thousand years.
VI. We believe that all men by nature and by choice are sinners, but that those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior are freed from the penalty and power of sin, rejoicing forever in God’s presence. Those who refuse to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are forever separated from God.
VII. We believe that Spirit-directed witness is a personal responsibility of individual Christians in the salvation of others. Part of this witness is separation unto God, from worldliness and ecclesiastical apostasy.
VIII. We believe that a person must admit he is a sinner, repent of his sins and receive Jesus Christ into his life personally as Lord and Savior to have the “new birth” relationship and become a child of God.
IX. We believe in the Church, a living, spiritual bond, of which Christ is the Head and of which all regenerated people are members. We believe that a visible church is a company of believers in Jesus Christ, buried with Him in baptism and associated for worship, work, and fellowship. We believe that to these visible churches were committed for observance “till He comes”, the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper, and that God has laid upon these churches the task of persuading a lost world to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and to enthrone Him as Lord and Master (Rom. 12:4,5; Eph. 5:23; 4:11-13; I Cor. 12; Matt. 10:15-18; Acts 2:41; I Cor. 11:23-26). As an extension of the church, it is the purpose of Odosagih Bible Conference to enable the church to fulfill this task.
X. We believe that God has commanded that no intimate sexual activity be engaged in outside of a marriage between a man and a woman. We believe that any form of homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality, bestiality, incest, fornication, adultery, and pornography are sinful perversions of God's gift of sex. We believe that God disapproves of and forbids an attempt to alter one's gender by surgery or appearance. (Gen. 2:24, Gen. 19:5, 13; Gen. 26:8-9; Lev. 18:1-30; Rom. 1:26-29; I Cor. 5:1, 6-9; I Thess. 4:1-8; Heb. 1:4)
XI. We believe that the only legitimate marriage is the joining of one man and one woman. (Gen. 2:24; Rom. 7:2; I Cor. 7:10; Eph. 5:22-23)
Considering this collection of 'We Believe....' statements, if it any wonder I'm worried and looking for input?
Reminding folks that I live in New York, USA, my highest concern regarding my little one's camp out is that it's being held at a location that claims itself to be a, "Bible Conference and Retreat Center".
There is a little-known clause in our country's by-laws referred to as 'The First Amendment' - some of you might have heard of it. It says, in part, and paraphrasing here, that the government is not allowed to promote or hinder any religion. This has typically been refereed to as, "The Wall of Separation between Church and State".
My highest concern is that if at this "Bible Conference and Retreat Center" the promotion of Christianity (or, really, ANY religion) is promoted or taught By The Staff then they would be breaking the Law - in this case at a Federal Level.
To offload some responses and my answers to them....
... try and find out if this is going to be a Religious experience by talking to a teacher or who ever you can and not send the little one if you're worried you'll have to pull her out any moment.That's exactly what I'm working on; getting my thoughts together to write a letter and get information and assurance from the people who are supposed to be in charge of this. Because once it's in writing, at least, if there IS a problem I have something to back me up with if I need to press the issue.
If you don't want your kid to be raised christian it's easy enough to tell the teachers, "Hey, she doesn't need to stand up during this," or whatever.
It's not gonna hurt her to be in the room while people offer a corny prayer. This just sounds like you're being a dick for the sake of being a dick.The problem is not simply, "let them have thier fun and you Atheists can just wait outside while we have our fun", it's the legality of it all. At the Federal Level it would be illegal while at a moral level it would be demeaning, exclusionary and simply wrong. A 5th grader doesn't need to be told, "You're going to be left out because we believe in a Sky Daddy you don't".
As for being a dick? I'm not at all upset you said that, only confused why you might think that. Protecting my daughter (hell, her whole CLASS) from someone who MIGHT be looking to break her/their First Amendment Rights as a US Citizen hardly seems a dick-move to me.
Question - WHY is a secular public (public?) school going to a "bible conference and retreat center"? that DOES sound like a problem that needs to be addressed.Agreed - and its one I was wondering about also. IN AN OF ITSELF.... it may be a simple thing; maybe it was just a location they were able to secure for the best price for the time wanted.... and the event will be staffed / managed by the school teachers themselves. So long as they keep to a secular event, I'm OK, if squeamish about, where the event is being held. I still plan on writing a letter of disapproval later regardless, just to make sure they know that I think they're skirting a BIG issue... but as stands, pending further problems, I'm willing to wait-and-see a bit.
I'd say not worry about it. It's just one event, after all.And 'just one murder' is still murder, if you'll pardon the indelicacy of what I'm saying. Breaking the law is still breaking the law. Its not a matter of 'WELL, just let them have one little bit...' After all, at what point, then, does the law step in to protect those that need the protection most if not at the first sign of attack?
... If they require that they must pray at mealtime ask if your child can choose to maintain silence out of respect to their custom and if they say all must participate then you have your answer....And the problem with this is, as before, there should not even be a issue like this coming up. I already told her that if the 'thanks' is to have everyone think about and appreciate where all the food came from (the kitchen staff, the farmers, the grocery workers, etc) then I'm all for it! But if there's even ONE mention of a god, then that cross the line and kicks dirt across it to boot.
To help you all along with how concerned I was, I would ask you to read the "Doctrinal Statement" of the facility, as located at http://www.odosagih.org/content.cfm?id=295. I have done no editing at all.
I. We believe that the Bible (66 books, Genesis - Revelation) is the Word of God to man, written by men divinely and plenarily inspired, and that it is the supreme, infallible authority in all matters.
II. We believe in God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, measureless in power. We rejoice that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men, that He hears and answers prayer, and that He saves from sin and death all who come to Him through Jesus Christ.
III. We believe in the pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ. We also believe that the Son, Jesus Christ (Messiah), was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, and sinless in His life. He is atonement for the sin of men by His substitutionary death. He was buried, arose bodily from the grave, ascended into heaven, and is presently at the right hand of the Father interceding for believers.
IV. We believe that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and regenerates, indwells, seals, teaches, and fills all those who receive Christ.
V. We believe that the Second Coming of Christ for His ransomed church is imminent, the next great event; that at Christ’s revelation to the world after the great tribulation, He shall set up His literal, worldwide Kingdom and reign over the world for at least a thousand years.
VI. We believe that all men by nature and by choice are sinners, but that those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior are freed from the penalty and power of sin, rejoicing forever in God’s presence. Those who refuse to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are forever separated from God.
VII. We believe that Spirit-directed witness is a personal responsibility of individual Christians in the salvation of others. Part of this witness is separation unto God, from worldliness and ecclesiastical apostasy.
VIII. We believe that a person must admit he is a sinner, repent of his sins and receive Jesus Christ into his life personally as Lord and Savior to have the “new birth” relationship and become a child of God.
IX. We believe in the Church, a living, spiritual bond, of which Christ is the Head and of which all regenerated people are members. We believe that a visible church is a company of believers in Jesus Christ, buried with Him in baptism and associated for worship, work, and fellowship. We believe that to these visible churches were committed for observance “till He comes”, the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper, and that God has laid upon these churches the task of persuading a lost world to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and to enthrone Him as Lord and Master (Rom. 12:4,5; Eph. 5:23; 4:11-13; I Cor. 12; Matt. 10:15-18; Acts 2:41; I Cor. 11:23-26). As an extension of the church, it is the purpose of Odosagih Bible Conference to enable the church to fulfill this task.
X. We believe that God has commanded that no intimate sexual activity be engaged in outside of a marriage between a man and a woman. We believe that any form of homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality, bestiality, incest, fornication, adultery, and pornography are sinful perversions of God's gift of sex. We believe that God disapproves of and forbids an attempt to alter one's gender by surgery or appearance. (Gen. 2:24, Gen. 19:5, 13; Gen. 26:8-9; Lev. 18:1-30; Rom. 1:26-29; I Cor. 5:1, 6-9; I Thess. 4:1-8; Heb. 1:4)
XI. We believe that the only legitimate marriage is the joining of one man and one woman. (Gen. 2:24; Rom. 7:2; I Cor. 7:10; Eph. 5:22-23)
Considering this collection of 'We Believe....' statements, if it any wonder I'm worried and looking for input?
welp, I'd write the school and make sure all that zombie-jesus B.S. isn't being pushed on the kids behind the parents backs.
as long as they students are not required to "give thanks to god" By the School Staff, i wouldn't worry too much. having to stand, not an issue in my opinion.
I half expect the facility staff in their ignorant arrogant way to try and "bring the kiddies to JEZ-us" but I'm sure Tiny Trib can explain to them that she is not religious and doesn't need such fairytales to live a good and moral life.
First one, in Genesis, is about getting out of the home and getting married; though it uses Wife, only one translation (A jewish one, it looks like) actually specifies woman instead.
Romans is actually about divorce, and basically says the man owns his wife until he dies, and then she's no longer legally his. Wow, this bible camp really knows how to look up their passages; a side note, Romans isn't a chapter to directly base anyone's lives on, it was an Epistle passing God's word to the Romans.
First Corinthians is, again, a divorce verse, saying from God that a wife shouldn't leave her husband... nothing one man, one woman, there; again, aside, Corinthians was another letters/messages to a people chapter, about how they should live more for God's way... I really wish that these people realized this more about their beloved books of their bible.
And then Ephesians, another "Letters to..." book... saying wives should give themselves to their husbands as they do to God, or put their husbands before themselves, as they do God, because the man is the head of the wife, as Jesus is the head of the church. (I almost put Jesús, pronounced Hey Seuse, instead of Jesus there, XD)... Again, nothing about marriage itself, just about how the woman is supposed to be subservient property of the husband.
Gods, and I do mean plural of the "Sky Daddies" as Shu put it, are they full of [explicit]... My not-religious opinion, Shu, if you can get past the religion blurb here, is that you do what you are doing, and watch it closely... I'd already have the letter typed and numbers keyed for quick dial should this get any more preachy of a situation.
NOTE: I have nothing against people of the cloth, or their divine beings of following. I do, however, think of religion, especially most of the Christian/Catholic denominations, like a dick: You can have it, and be happy about it, but it shouldn't be waved about in public here, and don't make with ramming it down my throat...
I'm working on the letter now, matter of fact. Going to revise it during the weekend and have it delivered Monday Morning. I don;t want to rush through it and come across as a litigious nut-job or fail to get my points across.
Dealing with school administrators & school boards can get ugly, very quickly, and recording any meetings/discussions will go a long way to protecting yourself should they try to bullshit you -- and they WILL.
You may also want to consider familiarizing yourself with the Regulations of the Commissioner of Education (www.counsel.nysed.gov), particularly with making appeals to the Commissioner of Education under Education Law §310. Researching past Commisioner's decisions (on that same website) can be very enlightening.
If you're able to do so, I'd also suggest seeking the services of a lawyer who specializes in education law. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, standard disclaimer applies, etc.
(Again, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV)
Also, before you record a conversation with another party, check the laws in your area for details - you may be required to inform them that you're recording, provide them a copy, have to desist if they demur, or may be prohibited from recording, in some instances. the latter cases are unlikely, but crop up now and then.
I actually personally never knew EXACTLY what the First Amendment did, and now that I know ... I'm horrified to realize JUST how much that law is broken on a day-to-day basis. Every city and state around the country that is against same sex marriage ... is essentially breaking Federal Law. That ... actually makes me even MORE angry, now, that this is even being allowed to happen. It's not even going on "under the table", it's blatantly right in our faces. Anti-gay laws are flung into our faces day in and day out, and now I find out that it's actually a Federal offense...? I'm shocked. Furious, horrified, and shocked. This is a spit into the collective faces of our founding fathers.
I always knew that one day the little one and I would have to defend ourselves, being atheists and all. I just thought it would take a little longer than this.
You want to have even MORE bile about the whole "Same Sex Marriage" thing (or as I like to call it... "Marriage"), check out George Hrab's podcast episode where he takes apart the Ruth Institute's "77 Reasons to support man/woman marriage". (FF to about 14:30 to begin.)
And now, just think... all the complaints about the ACLU and the Freedom From Religion Foundation "taking away Christian rights in public".... how much a crapfest all those complaints have been. Especially when you consider that ~75% of the population of the USA identifies as "Christian". And since when, apart from Apartheid South Africa, has a dominant group ever been repressed?
I'm beginning to understand that it isn't a matter of changing the laws to be more tolerant and logical ... but more a matter of ENFORCING the laws that ALREADY exist to protect us from religious persecution, but are blatantly ignored by the government that lies through their teeth when they claim to have our best interests at heart. No greater lie has ever been told. The simple truth is that they don't enforce it because it doesn't allow all of these government big-wigs to act upon her own biased agendas. They'd be ruling AGAINST themselves. That seems to be the only reason why the First Amendment is not as strictly enforced as it should be.
Everyone has the right to say what they will - even Westboro and the KKK and the American Nazi Party and Mittens Romney. What they are NOT allowed to do is promote a / any religion in the capacity of a government representative.
Example: A few years ago (2011) Texas Gov Rick Perry invited other state gov's to Texas for, “a day of prayer and fasting on behalf of our troubled nation.”
This got people WAY pissed off because it was open to Christians and anyone who was willing to accept Jesus as the True Son Of God... meaning if you wanted to be there but were, say, Jewish... you'd have to accept Jesus wasn't just a highly respected teacher but the Divine Flesh-n-Blood of God Himself.
You can imagine how the Atheist community felt.
Here's the catch..... if CITIZEN RICK PERRY had done the same thing, invited people to his private place, or even his church, there wouldn't have been ANYTHING about it - no law suits at all... because it would be a Private Citizen's actions and NOT "The Duly Elected Governor of the Great State of Texas, Rick Perry, invites you to...."
(Spoiler - the judge down there said there was 'insufficient harm' to the atheist community to warrant an injunction.)
So, yeah.. you can well imagine I'm walking a REALLY fine line between protecting my girl and her WHOLE CLASS vs being branded a trouble maker.
But trust me, if I have to make trouble about this, I will bring a WHOLE HELL of a lot of Rain-n-Pain.
Seriously, you've got all my support on this. I'm all for freedom and fairness for everyone, but that means EVERYONE. Not just the "favorites" (read; Christians) being given free reign to force their beliefs on everyone else.
Instead of trying to push advice your way, let me tell you about how we raised our kids. My wife and I like to think we live in a responsible, ethical fashion, but we are a-religious. More specifically, I usually describe myself as being a "Carl Sagan Atheist." (I can't prove there isn't a god, but in absence of strong evidence, I must default to the assumption there is no god).
We look at the space of possible religious beliefs a bit like memes or viruses. At first we thought to shelter our children, but then we decided that would leave them ripe to rebel against mom and pop. We needed to inoculate them with Cowpox so that they wouldn't catch Smallpox. So we enrolled them in Sunday school at the local Methodist church. I was raised a Methodist and most such churches are very "moderate" and generic in their teachings. I knew a few people in the local church and they were all too happy to give my sons some Methodist teaching even if we were not formally part of the church.
Sure enough - the Methodist teachings educated them on basic Christian mythology, exposed them to mild proselytizing propaganda, but had no real effect on their religious beliefs. Further, they now have experienced what it is like to be in an environment where nice people are trying to convert them, resisted, and learned it is OK to not join the flock.
We are no longer as afraid that our kids will get sucked in by some cult. They have now seen how religions work from the outside and from the inside.
And I'm using the Santa Myth to teach her, slowly, the life lesson of how one learns, over time, to break away from something she was taught from birth as true... it hurts when I've been asked if I would lie to my child, because I know that I am and WHY.... but I know that she will need to understand how it feels to be, effectively, conditioned to believe something until logic works it free.
I've worked over my first draft of the letter I'm going to send, posting it "now" for review and critique... we'll see where this takes us.
A popular quote by Jesus Christ. People interpret it differently, but I see it as his endorsement of separation of church and state. Mind you this is just my interpretation of it.
But still, that sounds like an... awfully bigoted group. Even if it's a secular event, I recommend you not send your little one there.
Go, dad
On the other hand, likening a prayer over dinner or a football game to a murder is insane.
The problem is not simply, "let them have thier fun and you Atheists can just wait outside while we have our fun", it's the legality of it all. At the Federal Level it would be illegal while at a moral level it would be demeaning, exclusionary and simply wrong. A 5th grader doesn't need to be told, "You're going to be left out because we believe in a Sky Daddy you don't".That's precisely the problem. All of these people over here(points to a buncha Christians in a corner) wanna pray to their god. If a bunch of Muslims want to pray to Allah, let them, and God bless them. If some Jews show up and want to pray as well, fine. And if some Catholics want to pray to the saints or offer a few Hail Marys let them, too. I suppose you can have your kid sit and do calculus or something.
As for being a dick? I'm not at all upset you said that, only confused why you might think that. Protecting my daughter (hell, her whole CLASS) from someone who MIGHT be looking to break her/their First Amendment Rights as a US Citizen hardly seems a dick-move to me."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
"Shall make no law," simply means that Congress cannot create a unified national church, which they have not done here, or anywhere else in America. The federal government DOES NOT own the public school system, nor is the public school system an institution of the federal government. Federal government funds the State, the State Funds the school system(does not own it, though), and the school board appropriates funds as they see fit. The Federal Government isn't funding or endorsing any religious organization here.
I would say in hindsight that you're not really being a dick, just being hypersensitive which I take offense to, for personal reasons which you can surmise from my latest reply on your last journal.
Complete religious tolerance is COMPLETE religious tolerance. Not just selective tolerance for the favorite majority while everyone else has to get brow-beaten by someone else's dogma. Justice is either absolute or it simply doesn't exist. The very biased old Conservatives still firmly in power care too much about their own agendas to ever abide by the principles of our founding fathers.
Is what they're doing unethical? Not really, because they are PROBABLY not using federal funds to pay for it(on average only 8.2% of school funding comes from the Federal Government).
Why can't everyone have their prayers, or calculus, or mantras, or chants, or whatever it is they wish to do/not do, instead of creating this zone where ONLY ATHEISTS are protected, and everyone else is restricted? From my personal experience 99% of public schools are completely anti-religion, to the point of suspending children or giving them detention for wearing the wrong tshirts and praying over their lunch.
Atheists aren't being discriminated against, they simply want to enforce their beliefs on others, and they(on the whole) are even more hateful and militant about it than any Evangelical Christian.
Having been in that situation, and having seen the uglier side of what religion can be, I would strongly argue that such a situation IS unethical. Extremely. Nobody should be pressured into accepting/going along with something, no matter how benign it might seem to someone outside the situation. Not everyone is going to feel that what's "harmless" to you is also "harmless" to them.
THAT'S the primary issue. It may be someone's right to follow and freely practice their chosen faith ... but it's also someone right to not have the beliefs of others forced upon them. Respect runs both ways.
But I DON'T believe those things, because that's not what force is. No one's holding a gun to anyone's head. If, IF it wasn't his right to pull his kid out of it, if the child HAD to attend, and HAD to take part in the stupid little prayer(Idk how they'd force her to do that, like, actual FORCE, yelling, physical force, threats, etc.) then FUCK YES that's wrong! But he can pull her out, and she can decide to not participate in singing the silly song.
Not practicing my belief because you don't believe the same as me isn't respect, it's self-deprecation. And when you believe in nothing at all, then you can't really violate those beliefs, you have nothing there to offend. At a LARP I sang a drinking song in praise to Odin. Did that make me a Pagan? No, I don't think so.
Please forgive my sarcasm, but... Sorry, this is just a completely spineless argument. "I felt like people were forcing their beliefs on me, I felt pressured, other people may not see it as harmless, etcetcetc.." Force is when Catholic Missionaries withhold food and medicine from people who don't go to church, force is when the Tokugawa executed 37,000 Christians in one act, when the Catholics burned "heretics" at the stake, THAT is force. Saying grace in a outdated song? That isn't force, by any margin, and calling it that makes a joke of all the people that have ACTUALLY been oppressed, and who have ACTUALLY been violated.
Soooo ... in light of that ... good luck to you.
I really am sorry if I offended you.
* The 1st Amendment protects ALL citizens from government interference regarding any religion's desires, tenants, dogma or instructions.
* The Federal Government is not allowed to promote any religion nor to inhibit the people to enjoy whatever religious view and opinions they wish.
* The individual states are enjoined and bound to the same responsibilities as the Federal Government via the 14th Amendment... meaning the 1st also applies as well.
* ANY violation of The Law, however slight, is STILL a violation; it becomes especially egregious when an organization that's been given the trust of The People abuses that trust and breaks its own rules.
Bottom line, if this is an Official Publicly-owned-and-operated-School-District event, then the school is obligated to comply with The Law... meaning they cannot promote any religion in any capacity. And IF this facility is being used as a smoke screen by someone to promote Christianity to our most vulnerable citizens, then it is MY job as father and citizen to complain and ensure her rights are safe.
Now.. to back track some of your assertions:
I am flabbergasted at what constitutes force, nowadays.Consider the term, 'Force' as 'coercion' instead. In that case, "Peer Pressure" is 'Force'. At 10 or 11 years old, how ready were you to buck against Peer Pressure? What do you think the average 10 / 11 year old would do with nearly 100 people looking at them disapprovingly? Dare I say MOST, if not all, would simply cave in and follow the herd. The point being this situation, according to The Law, is not supposed to even be an issue.
Force is when Catholic Missionaries withhold food and medicine from people who don't go to church....No. That is 'Sadism' of the worst kind.
...and THIS argument is complete and utter bunk and I will show you why;
Why can't everyone have their prayers, or calculus, or mantras, or chants, or whatever it is they wish to do/not do, instead of creating this zone where ONLY ATHEISTS are protected, and everyone else is restricted? From my personal experience 99% of public schools are completely anti-religion, to the point of suspending children or giving them detention for wearing the wrong tshirts and praying over their lunch.
Atheists aren't being discriminated against, they simply want to enforce their beliefs on others, and they(on the whole) are even more hateful and militant about it than any Evangelical Christian.Students CAN have their prayers in school. TEACHER-LED PRAYERS are illegal because that would then be a Public School / Government Employee promoting A religion in an official capacity. Students may pray on their own as they wish.
Atheists are not specifically protected by this Law, ALL citizens of ALL religious persuasions are protected. Catholics from Protestants from Atheists from Methodists from Eastern Orthodox.... NO governmental official is allowed to promote a religion in their official capacity.
Your 'personal experience' is hardly a compelling argument. HOWEVER that being said what you SHOULD have observed in a US-Based Public School was 100% SECULAR positions; No promotion of ANY religion. Being "Anti-Theistic" would be the promotion of a religious ideology and would be against the law also. That being said, please link me to the articles where students in the US were suspended / detained for prayers of clothing with religious messages.
Atheists ARE being discriminated against at all turns in the US. Tell me, how many Openly Atheistic Senators are there? Who are they? Those who are self-identified as "Atheist" or similar make up better than 15% of the current population. Meaning, statistically speaking, there should be 15 - 20 Senators (out of 100) who are Atheists. But how many are claimed to be?
Atheists are not militant as a rule, not hateful. By and large we LOVE out country and only want it to fulfill it's charter - to ensure that ALL citizens are able to enjoy the same freedoms equally.
...after all, have I struck you as "angry" so far?
The closest thing to do that would be remotely fair would be to offer a moment of silence so that those of whatever faith may have their prayers to themselves. Then they could pray to whichever god(s) they believe in and let the atheists think about whatever they want to think about. But considering the venue, I doubt that will happen.
And frankly its rather offensive to attack atheists for trying to protect their beliefs, when really nearly all religions attack every other religion that isn't their own for the same reasons. Its all just bad negative energy cycling over again. This is of obvious concern for Shu as a parent, and he has every right to handle it the way he is. There is no need to be getting so aggressive when he is just looking for some advice.
The 14th Amendment, among other things, sets forth that the individual states MUST abide by the federal level laws equally. By that any public school, meaning funded with public money as collected by The State, MUST abide by the laws at the Federal Level... including the so called 'Establishment Clause' of the 1st Amendment. To that end, there does not need to be the creation of a physical church to run counter to the 1st, but a bias regarding ANY religion would be a violation. The promotion, even tacitly, of ANY religion is against the law.
Consider this regarding possible hypersensitivity; If the kids were going to a facility run by Islamists, who prayed 5 times a day, as they are required to by their faith, who tell the kids that they will be separated by sex and taught different things because that's the rules for their faith and while at the facility they have to abide by those rules.... you might (or should) have serious misgivings about the place. If you knew that your public school was disallowed to teach or promote religion, yet the class was taken to a place where religion was taught.... would that not send up a red flag? Taking a Catholic to a Protestant facility... or a Jew to a Muslim one. Each is wrong on moral and ethical levels... and moreso on a Legal Level
If I'm right, and I'm 99+% certain I am, then I'm standing up for the rights of the whole class, not just for my girl... and I will likely be branded a troublemaker now and a smart man later.
You said: 'And 'just one murder' is still murder, if you'll pardon the indelicacy of what I'm saying. Breaking the law is still breaking the law. Its not a matter of 'WELL, just let them have one little bit...' After all, at what point, then, does the law step in to protect those that need the protection most if not at the first sign of attack?'
Now we're talking semantics. :)
Why are we comparing prayer to something like murder? That is a little steep of an example, I would agree.
How about we compare it more to double parking, because guess what? That's breaking the law too, yet we all have done it and didn't feel bad about it.
I'll just restate what I said before: ask her what she wants to do. :)
My other question is this? This may not be relevant but it has got me thinking: What else does a school/secular camp do to elicit this kind of reaction out of people other than mentioning God? I mean, we'll pass students who should be failing left and right, yet ya mention God once and everyone is up in arms.
Just an observation. :)
What she wants is not the end-all be-all. She WANTS to go, has wanted to for the last 3 years since she knew about it. However if what the school is offering is illegal it will NOT happen and I will have to do my damnedest to help her come to terms with that AND to find a way to make it up to her.
To cover your last section... Public Schools in the US are bound to the same 'Wall of Separation between Church and State' that ANY governmental organization is. What else causes this level of reaction? I have no idea to be truthful. All I know is what I'm seeing smells bloody awful and as a parent and citizen it's my obligation and duty to see that my concerns are wrong.. or to address and fix them.
This might be best discussed in another journal, but what I am noticing is people are more up in arms about this sort of thing than they used to be. It was never such a strong topic of debate before. I can figure this one or two ways:
1) People are more aware because of the ease of information now.
2) We have more people, so we'll have more voices in the air.
X. We believe that God has commanded that no intimate sexual activity be engaged in outside of a marriage between a man and a woman. We believe that any form of homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality, bestiality, incest, fornication, adultery, and pornography are sinful perversions of God's gift of sex. We believe that God disapproves of and forbids an attempt to alter one's gender by surgery or appearance. (Gen. 2:24, Gen. 19:5, 13; Gen. 26:8-9; Lev. 18:1-30; Rom. 1:26-29; I Cor. 5:1, 6-9; I Thess. 4:1-8; Heb. 1:4)
XI. We believe that the only legitimate marriage is the joining of one man and one woman. (Gen. 2:24; Rom. 7:2; I Cor. 7:10; Eph. 5:22-23)
Way to get specific, and you can believe that I would NEVER let any child of mine get anywhere NEAR that institution. And yes, my girlfriend and I haved talked about having children. Frankly I think it best to just decline her attendance politely, perhaps stating your reason, but I will say, because I'm not really the inflamatory type, that I would not request they cancel it for the fact its being held at religious sites. I'd simply refuse the attendance of your daughter as you feel it is an infringement upon her right to not have such things forced down her throat...
..and thank you deeply.