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The Dishonesty of Porn vs. Clean Art
17 years ago
So recently, there's been a small gaggle of journals talking about the oversaturation of porn among the fandom. This entire debate was framed dishonestly, and since I'm an obnoxious know-it-all, of course I'm gonna say something about it. Here are my thoughts, point by point.
-There's too much porn in the fandom.
Really? You sign onto a site like furaffinity, and you're shocked to see this much porn? Listen, until somebody can produce some kind of geiger counter to decide how much porn is too much, I can't really take this one seriously.
-The fact that everyone draws porn drags down our reputation as a whole.
No, no it doesn't. Let me tell you something. The reason why people think that we're oversaturated with porn, is because we're a smaller social network. With people who have nothing to do with furries, they have access to exactly as much porn as we do, proportionally. The difference? It's separated. Porn is found in novelty shops, online, through pay-per-view, in magazines, in romance novels, in comics, in anime, and so on and so forth. That is a BOATLOAD of porn, if you ever bother to actually notice, but the difference is that if you find somebody's myspace, they probably won't have a link to that upskirt fetish they've got. But does that mean they're any less entrenched in porn? No. They have walls, we don't.
-All the porn has lowered the quality of art in the fandom.
Once again, no. In fact, you have that backward: all the new artists have lowered the quality of the porn in the fandom. And if they choose to practice their skills on wolf sex with bad anatomy and proportions, it's exactly as valid and valuable as if they practiced on standing poses of clothed furries with bad anatomy and proportions. It's like music. Nomatter what kind of music it is, you want to hear the finished product, but nobody wants to hear you practice. There's no difference, none. Those beginners will be there today and tomorrow and forever. Get over it. Oh, wait! Or maybe, I dunno, give them some constructive criticism and help them improve.
-People get more watches for porn than for non-porn.
True to a degree, but you're missing the big picture, here! The people that watch others just for the porn... I don't want to stereotype, but if they don't care about any other kind of content, will they really have something constructive to say about your phantasmagoric goth art or furry motorcycle blueprints other than "LOL COOL"? Do you really care that these people aren't watching you? I'm guessing you don't, unless you take this whole thing as a contest, in which case you are doing it WRONG. I have a lot of intelligent watchers, and I adore them! But I have a lot of watchers who honestly just want to come around and see some tits. And you know what? I welcome both. But if you don't, then stop whining that they won't watch you.
-Porn is a cesspool of uncreativity.
AAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH
NO. That assertion is worthy of a Conan-What-Is-Best-In-Life "WROOONG!" I have spent the majority of my time as an... 'artist,' I guess, figuring out amusing, intelligent ways to tell the story of human desire in short snippets, through cartoon animals. The trope that porn is for the stupid is because of the porn industry, who refuses to make anything with a plot or even a clever idea. And anyone who knows industries should realize that there's no reason to judge an art form based on corporations that make money from it. Should I judge all oils by hotel paintings? All caracatures by mall jobs that charge you ten bucks for a shot of you and your cousin driving a go-kart? All comics by painfully unfunny newspapers strips and companies that never let their goddamn characters die? NO. No, I shouldn't. That would be stupid and presumptuous, and discounts anybody who's trying to make it better.
So in closing, no, the fandom does not need to change. You want more clean art? Either draw it yourself, encourage your favorite artist with a creative idea, or put your money where your mouth is and commission them.
-There's too much porn in the fandom.
Really? You sign onto a site like furaffinity, and you're shocked to see this much porn? Listen, until somebody can produce some kind of geiger counter to decide how much porn is too much, I can't really take this one seriously.
-The fact that everyone draws porn drags down our reputation as a whole.
No, no it doesn't. Let me tell you something. The reason why people think that we're oversaturated with porn, is because we're a smaller social network. With people who have nothing to do with furries, they have access to exactly as much porn as we do, proportionally. The difference? It's separated. Porn is found in novelty shops, online, through pay-per-view, in magazines, in romance novels, in comics, in anime, and so on and so forth. That is a BOATLOAD of porn, if you ever bother to actually notice, but the difference is that if you find somebody's myspace, they probably won't have a link to that upskirt fetish they've got. But does that mean they're any less entrenched in porn? No. They have walls, we don't.
-All the porn has lowered the quality of art in the fandom.
Once again, no. In fact, you have that backward: all the new artists have lowered the quality of the porn in the fandom. And if they choose to practice their skills on wolf sex with bad anatomy and proportions, it's exactly as valid and valuable as if they practiced on standing poses of clothed furries with bad anatomy and proportions. It's like music. Nomatter what kind of music it is, you want to hear the finished product, but nobody wants to hear you practice. There's no difference, none. Those beginners will be there today and tomorrow and forever. Get over it. Oh, wait! Or maybe, I dunno, give them some constructive criticism and help them improve.
-People get more watches for porn than for non-porn.
True to a degree, but you're missing the big picture, here! The people that watch others just for the porn... I don't want to stereotype, but if they don't care about any other kind of content, will they really have something constructive to say about your phantasmagoric goth art or furry motorcycle blueprints other than "LOL COOL"? Do you really care that these people aren't watching you? I'm guessing you don't, unless you take this whole thing as a contest, in which case you are doing it WRONG. I have a lot of intelligent watchers, and I adore them! But I have a lot of watchers who honestly just want to come around and see some tits. And you know what? I welcome both. But if you don't, then stop whining that they won't watch you.
-Porn is a cesspool of uncreativity.
AAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH
NO. That assertion is worthy of a Conan-What-Is-Best-In-Life "WROOONG!" I have spent the majority of my time as an... 'artist,' I guess, figuring out amusing, intelligent ways to tell the story of human desire in short snippets, through cartoon animals. The trope that porn is for the stupid is because of the porn industry, who refuses to make anything with a plot or even a clever idea. And anyone who knows industries should realize that there's no reason to judge an art form based on corporations that make money from it. Should I judge all oils by hotel paintings? All caracatures by mall jobs that charge you ten bucks for a shot of you and your cousin driving a go-kart? All comics by painfully unfunny newspapers strips and companies that never let their goddamn characters die? NO. No, I shouldn't. That would be stupid and presumptuous, and discounts anybody who's trying to make it better.
So in closing, no, the fandom does not need to change. You want more clean art? Either draw it yourself, encourage your favorite artist with a creative idea, or put your money where your mouth is and commission them.
But yeah, most people think we're perverts. Is that our problem? No.
... though your views are wonderfully valid. *shrugs*
And you've GOT to be shitting me.
The thing that upsets me the most is that someone boiled his argument down to badly drawn male porn.
The internet is mainly for porn, all other uses are secondary to the true reason. Its like marijuana, sure it can cure some eye illness or whatever but the main use is to get one high.
You, who have so eloquently conveyed your personal opinion, have proven to be one of the more sane, intelligent members of our little fuzzy fuck-cult as most might consider it and I thank you for going to such trouble. I agree with everything you have said but I would add an addendum to the porn/creativity issue: seriously, you have to either be on some powerful abusive, illicit substance, or more creative than Salvador Dali (who painted this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:....._Awakening.jpg ) to produce something as bizarre as some of the more extreme fetishes that can easily be found on this site alone.
Srsly, though. Both take time and skill to draw. Same creative process. What's the big deal?
So what is best in life Conan?
womenmen. >=CActually, Yeah, I looked over this journal. The debate for me is non-existant. Artists draw what they want. The end.
xD
Still need to draw you. Gotta remember.
I am in full support of what you have to say here; I even got a journal up about it msyelf and would have happily linked to this one had it been up almost a week ago.
I just want to say that Michalangelo did David, and he was naked...which, you could say is...pornographic!?!? *gasp!*
...and is considered quite the work of art. :3
I respect everyone has a right to have a say about these things but you're never going to drum up support if you can't even be bothered to try to write a decently thought out arguement, nor provide any evidence to back up your claims or comment on why you're allowed to not practice what you're preaching.
Thanks for showing me at least some here take the time to sit down and think first before they start going wild with accusations. Norithics.
IN addition, let me make it clear to you that you are wise, and your face would be beard, had you one. Then you would have a wisdom (not to mention a beard!) taht would supplant that of Wise Beard Man himself!
Which also lets me breath a sighe of relief, that there is no upper limit to Pr0n. There can NEVER be too much pr0n. After all, it IS one of the addendum rules of the internet! Just after "If it Exists, Tony Stark can build it in a cave with a box of scraps."
Oh wait, I already did.
For starters, is it possible that some people might think that because PORN IS ALL THEY EVER LOOK AT THEMSELVES!?!?
For seconds, you can never have too much porn. Obviously.
-The fact that everyone draws porn drags down our reputation as a whole.
Right, because we should care more about the opinions of constantly-complaining constipated pouty loudmouhs who will hate us no matter what we do, as opposed to following our own desires and not living under the oppressive misery of personal repression. Riiiiiiight.
-All the porn has lowered the quality of art in the fandom.
Right, just like gay marriage tarnishes the sanctity of traditional 'divorce 50% of the time' marriage.
-People get more watches for porn than for non-porn.
Then how come I got a shit-ton of watches for my submission which was simply a large image of the sentence "Fuck You I'm Voting For Aquaman"?
-Porn is a cesspool of uncreativity.
<squints> Anyone wanna come a little closer and say that to my face? ;)
Porn is a cesspool of WIN
...if cesspools get you hard. ;)
Ace journal, Norithics. You are one of the best adjusted furrys out there. *gives you the Furgeta-stamp-of-coolness* It occurs to me that even the most conservative of people have a fetish of some sort, and dollars to donuts, it's usually adult. Whether they choose to explore it or not is their decision. We've been exploring our fetish undetered by other groups and I feel that is a healthy thing.
But I expected intelligence.
I chose wisely.
Anyone who points to other fandoms as an example conveniently forgets that all those other fandoms are formed around regulated source material. Furry isn't. Duh.
Fandoms have no inherent ability to perform any co-ordinated action for their own collective betterment, be it squelching porn or raising the overall talent level of its artists. You might as well attempt to herd cats.
One does not pay a fee, earn or qualify for a license, permit, certification or anything else that can be revoked to disallow your participation if you misbehave of fail to live up to some ideal, in order to be a part of this fandom (or any other). And in the event that such a thing ever comes to pass, you still lose the argument because once anyone can be formally barred from associating with it, such an entity ceases to be a fandom.
1. There's never too much porn (unless you have so many submissions you're forced to nuke them all o_O), just as there is never too much non-porn. It's way too subjective.
2. Well said. We just lump it all together in a few sites, with all kinks.
3/5 combined. I object to those myths, as I've seen quite a bit of really well-drawn adult artwork. Take, for example, some of your stuff. It's drawn well, and funny, too, at times. Or, say, honestly, anyone on my watchlist that draws adult stuff. I don't watch people that aren't good.
4. As they say, *sings* THE INTERNET IS FOR PORN! THE INTERNET IS FOR PORN! etc. And those that draw non-porn furry art are usually at sites that don't accept adult art, where the clean furry art is much better represented.
I think I just wrapped up your entire journal in a nutshell! =B
>.> also shh no pointing out my ramblings >.>
I've been noticing this meat-headed mentality for a while also. I haven't quite reached my critical mass of annoyance yet so I'm glad that you've articulated it well so I can tend my other peeves for a while. XD
Whenever I hear someone criticizing me for drawing so much adult material, I can't help but imagine some idiot telling Masamune, "You play with your sword too much."
I'm good at it, and I do it, and I'm not hurting anyone.
It annoys me to no ends when people come with fiery arguments that are heard despite the fact they completely miss the point. Correlation isn't necessarily the same as cause and effect. (as in: what drags down the quality of the art selection, etc)
For instance the "only porn" thing. The difference isn't how much porn there is room for in people's interest list here compared to anywhere else - it's the fact you SEE how much porn there is on FA, since it's lined up alongside with everything else.
I do not think the percentages are different when comparing furaffinity members to anybody on the street. Sex is a fundamental aspect of life, lots of people like it. ;3
More watches for porn? I'd like to draw a parallel. People say you get more watches for fan art than original art, but in my case? I draw personal, non-mainstream interpretations of stuff. Generally popular stuff gets you more watches - but also more general watchers, like you touched on up there.
The level of creativity isn't bigger in art with other themes than porn. Take a look at the selection of tame art, and you'll get that confirmed. Every kind of art is what you make it. Take any category, split it up any way you like, into fan art and original works, into porn and clean, into romance and horror, and in each category you'll find tons of unoriginal stuff, some half decent stuff and then some golden nuggets.
And good art is good art, no matter the theme. Bad porn is no fun, good porn is fun :3
So get to drawing us some porn! :D
No? Ah, well. Worth a shot. =P
Heh heh, we'll see. :3
i cant rp In Second life without having to deal with a Gorean or person who thinks they understand what being furry is about! *dances* I can not wait for your next bits of wisdom can i call you buddha? XD
*watches* hope you don't mind
Very well put, Nori. I've had conversations along this topic many a time with friends who put effort into not necessarily toggling my dongle for what I have done, but strove to make what I did do BETTER and told me when what I had done was worthwhile. These are the members of the audience we as artists (of whatever nature) keep close: the ones who make intelligent replies, give advice or constructive criticism, but are unafraid of just saying "Good for you!/Well done!/I like what you did there!"
Y'know, the people we were creating this for in the first place. :3
Again, well put, amigo.
HUGZ! THANK YOU!