In all honesty. This isn't a United States problem and our government has no business telling that country how to handle gay people: its their choice and their right to denounce it if they want to.

>.< That's exactly what I did to start it last time...

And it starts.. AGAIN! Tune in next time to see why the popcorn you are eating is poisoned! Film at 11! :P

*tunes in!*

Also, sorry if I bit too close or anything. I was trying to debate and discuss, not fight.

No worries. If you read my posts (if not, you might want to :) ) I replied in level headed manner and often times with something you could consider educational. :) A discussion is just that, voicing of opinions, knowledge, etc. :) :)

I tried to be level-headed, but some people were being kinda mean (or at least it came off that way to me).

It did get a bit overwhelming. Though to be fair its a hot button topic and you were, albeit accidentally, defending the view of the "bad guys". Still all in all, it worked out and people were made aware of the issue. I think in the end you could call it a win for the petition due to the increase in awareness?

I wasn't actually defending them, mind you. I was talking about something that was ultimately unrelated, and people took it as me defending the Russian Government (something I wouldn't do, given how bad I think it is).

Actuality and perceived actuality are often times the same, when taken out of context of the original intention. ;)

And all the more easily done with text that is harder to question than verbal discussion and discourse.

See, I'm not stupid, I just have zero common sense online sometimes. XD

I think they call your reaction "Diarrhea of the fingers" ;) That said It all worked out, happy end for everyone and without the extra cost or messy massage oils ;P ;P

...you mean this could have ended with massage oils? NOW I AM DISAPPOINT!

See what happens when you try and have a political discussion? You miss all the fun the rest of us have in the back room ;)

No wonder politicians don't try to have discussions anymore! XD

Haven't you seen where they spend their money at "meetings"? Seriously.. read CNN sometime, its amazing what they can write off as "entertainment" ;)

"Quite. Like in my report... twenty thousand for a... Candi?"
"That's Candi with an 'i', by the way."
" Not to mention the priceless antique car... I believe the note on the claim was 'I thought I could paint it red, but I couldn't find enough goats, so I scrapped it'."
"So that's why we found my father's car covered in goat blood and rammed into a Dairy Queen."
"Oh, yes, and then there's also the Dairy Queen. Sitting at about ninety-five thousand in damages..."

The sad part is.. thats only a congressional aid. You should see what the actual congressman was up to in his private jet ;P

Ohh and.. HA!! ok, that was good ;) 7 points! :P :P

I stole it from Hellsing Abridged, so I can't take credit.

Ok ya.. that sounds exactly like something Kaiser would say.. *snerks* Now I have to give him $*^! over me giving away 7 points I can't ever get back ;)

I think Takahata is the only one who writes Hellsing, actually.

Either way, I need to blame him for something, he's due for it ;P

This is probably the best way I have seen people handle a controversial debate, EVER.

You two are freakin' awesome. XD

Its all a mater of how you look at things :) If you want some real fun, read the original journal that caused it all. And for the record.. I accept your recommendation of freaking awesomeness and respond by offering sushi! How do you feel about California rolls? ;)

I'm more of an eel person myself, but I'm not very picky when it comes to eating sushi. :P

Besides, there's two options when ending an argument: either think the other person is a dick and leave, or try to reconcile overall and have a fun conversation. Just because two people disagree in one area doesn't make them enemies, and I like that a number of people agree with me there.

Reading this whole string of comments between you two makes me go "Where the f*** is the 'Like' button!?" Seriously, that was really well handled you guys. Thank you for not trying to "win the internet" in a comment argument. XD

Discussion is about comparing and, gasp!, discussing different opinions. Trying to win a discussion is like trying to win at Second Life. It...it doesn't make sense. The problem is that I'm also not always good at expressing my thoughts, and people LOVE to read in more disrespect than is there.

That is the joy of a text-only based conversation. XP Trying to have a serious/controversial discussion online, without seeing and hearing the other person sets the stage for massive blowups due to miss-communication and misinterpretation on everyone's parts. You don't get to see the actual "man behind the curtain", the true emotion/mood is lost, and so things can get blown out of proportion and leave ya backtracking to try and make others understand. :/ I think we've all been on the hot seat like you were at least once, I'm just glad that you were willing to take a moment to reflect and not let this turn into some giant "my dick is bigger than yours" contest. XD It's when stuff like this happens that I regain a little more faith in the fandom. There are too many furs out there who go out of their way to make us all look bad and will argue and argue until they literally get banned for it. I'm glad you're not one of them. <3

I sometimes have trouble knowing when to stop, but I usually manage to before I get in REAL trouble. I also tend to not be above apologizing. ^.^

Nobody's perfect. ^^ Sometimes we just gotta humble ourselves in order to keep the peace and not let things get stupid. :)

Oh btw, for being cool about all this and for simply responding to me (lol), you now has a new watcher. ;D

*pouts..* I haz no watcher? You just don't like foxes.. that has to be it :P

I have no idea what you're talking about... ;P

I felt yours and some of the other posts were disrespectful to the intent of the journal. Rukis used the Journal to help get a petition signed and you came along and gave your opinion why people shouldn't. That's just rude.

If you don't agree with the petition and feel you should just look away when other people (non Americans) are being oppressed, then don't sign it and move along.

I think you misunderstand where I was coming from, then. Partially because I might have been missing the point.

Either way, you've got your right to your opinion, and even have the right to interpret mine however you want. But I'm not as callous as you probably think I am, just jaded.

Also, I HAVE been trying to accept that I was kind of being an ass over in this journal, so it's not like I haven't been trying to say sorry.

I do agree with YamatoIouko- and I supportive of gay rights but I want to bring another point.

The major problem- no matter how many signatures you signed if the people of Russia don't care of human beings- they are not going to treat gays equality.

You can't focus laws or respect if culture doesn't accept of others.

My father worked in Yemen for many years. He told me that cannot bring justice to a country if the people don't have a culture of "love fellow neighbor/rights for everyone".

Yemen, despite being a theology government system, have a culture where a death of a child have the same fine if one kills a farmer's goat.

And the biggest car have the right way.

If Russia's culture have this "Narcissism" idea culture similar to Yemen- it is not going to work.

I appreciate that you understand where I'm coming from. It's a shame to hear such cultures still exist in the world, but people will be what they will until they decide to change. I want to see them change, but they're the ones that need to want it.

No trouble!

Sorry you got sweep under the carpet like that though. :/ I love a good debate but it was an eye sore watching you trying to explain over and over to the others.

Politics are not clear nor is it black or white. But I wish more understand that concept.

And while the heart is there in Rukis's journal- do someone does something intentionally good doesn't mean it will come out good.

when someone does something intentionally...


XD Opps, slip of the fingers.

It's okay. I let too much of it get to me, and I did get a little harsh with some people. But I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings.

This is at least partially true, but there's a difference between changing the minds of the Russian people (which no petition is going to do) and critiquing the policies of the Russian government. Not too long ago, when the government of Uganda put forward a bill that would have made homosexuality punishable by death, a proposal that was very popular in Uganda, the law was prevented almost entirely due to the international outrage that resulted. The knowledge that the world is watching can influence governments.

Will that happen in Russia? Almost certainly not. The country is too belligerent and powerful to be worried about what western countries or their citizens think of it. Does that mean that the petition is useless? Not necessarily. LGBT people in Russia are being persecuted, sometimes violently, by the government and by the majority of Russian citizens. If the knowledge that there are people who are outraged by what is happening to them makes their lives even a tiny bit easier, the petition is still worthwhile. And the petition raises awareness of the suffering laws like these can cause, which encourages the kind of empathy that makes our cultures able to embrace the tolerance and human rights that we hold dear.

I agree with you on this.

Outside influnce can have impact on other countries- if only if there is a relationship.

Uganda depends on first world nations for business and goods. If the countries don't like what Uganda is doing- they cut ties. And Uganda suffers.

And that's why it political pressure mostly don't work in North Korea- one of the most, if not the, isolated country.

Now I don't know what Russia- I have not study it's relationship with the other nations for a long time.

^this

inb4 I get attacked for my opinions.

for that you get a watch+

Oh?

Here we go again...
This petition is ONLY about kicking them so that they stop treating gay people like shit. You want to change the world? Then start looking beyond your own borders.

Funny, the people who always say lines like that never look past their own borders for the problems, also signing a sheet of paper to kick somebody out of office, wonder how that will turn out, tee hee hee.

Cause its not our business. That would be like a foreign government coming over here and telling you that you can't have something you like just because its offensive to them.

Preach.

I think there's a big problem if you value governments over actual people.

In a proper society, the government and the actual people should be one and the same.

Yes, but we do not live in such a fantastical utopian society and I have my doubts that we ever will. So until that does happen, if it ever does, I am always going to side with people over government.

But if you can't change the government, how will the people be able to be free? I'm just confused here, sorry.

You try to change the government by taking the side of the people, which may include encouraging outside intervention. Governments are supposed to represent their people, but it's painfully obvious that in many cases they do not - which is why outside influence is often necessary, because what governments may not care about their citizens but they do care about is their international relationships because economy relies heavily on trade.

I am only going to say this ONE time, and this is solely my opinion, take it or leave it. Speech is speech. There's a lot of human rights violations all over the world, and speaking out against them does no harm. All it does is let the public know: we do not approve. And if enough people begin to feel that way, they can enact change within their own borders. It's expression, not enforcement. There's a vast difference between signing a petition, and Vietnam.

That's all I'm going to say on this, though. I really don't want to be a part of this debate any further. I was trying to help a fellow artist. . . that's all.

Exactly.

I agree.
I see why some people get confused about the separation of opinion and action, and the dovetailing that occurs when outside opinion curbs or encourages changes in the actions of another country.

But it's like Bangladesh. Back in the 70s or 80s, factory-workers died in the thousands due to cruel and unusual working conditions in unsafe work-places. But only NOW, after vigorous public campaigning and public-awareness projects, are supporters of such inhumane and destructive practices (Walmart) finally being put on the spot for it.

Public awareness is what lets you know that just because your village supports torture of females, the rest of the villages in your country(or nations of the world) do not.

But where's that petition, Rukis? I didn't get a chance to see it.
Could you repost a link to it? I'd like to sign.

Well said. I ask that you don't take down the journal, despite the drama. This is not about slippery slopes, this is about civil rights, and there's no reason whatsoever to turn our backs on it. +1 petition signing

People being treated like second class citizens?

Oh not my country? Sorry none of my business the fuckers can burn for all i care right? It's not my country so i should mind my own business...



and people wonder why we humans treat each other so terribly...when sane people tell others who are trying to prevent social injustice to mine their own business

People treat each other badly because they're flawed and imperfect. It's the same reason some people choose to focus on one fight, or focus on their own lives over society. It's because none of us has the right answers, and each of our own chosen "right answers" conflict with one another.

Sorry but treating other people like second class citizens due to their sexuality is WRONG.

I don't give a crap if you say nobody has the right answer or that everyone has a right to their own opinion...it doesn't change the fact that those beliefs should NOT be allowed to deny other people THEIR rights!

Yes we are flawed and imperfect creatures...but for christ sake we have to TRY and be better and fucking try too help one another!

Some of them are trying. Others are still convinced that it's an abomination. The problem is that people resist learning when they become adults, on the whole. I don't know why, but it makes me sad.

Well that *some* needs to become *all* for starters.

EVERYONE should be trying too stop shit like this in the world...From the U.S to the Far East and everything in-between.

Just because that human being is born somewhere else doesn't mean they don't have the Human Rights modern society is based off of.

I hate too bring Nazi Germany into this but...

There were concentration camps near some towns in Germany and citizens there would IGNORE those places...they would go through their daily normal activities even as the TERRIBLE stench of burning bodies wafted over from the camps. When asked why they did nothing many of the citizens said "It was none of our business" or that "I didn't want to know what was causing the black smoke that smelled of death"


Good people can't keep saying it's none of their business or that its just that persons beliefs...Wrong is wrong no matter what...anything that goes against the Human Rights every person has in this world should be fought tooth and nail to be stopped.


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Modern society doesn't apply to all of the world, though. As globalized as we are, we are not one society. That's the problem, our technology is outpacing our governments and laws and boundaries. And it spreads misunderstanding that there's things like a global society when no such society truly exists. We may be moving that way, but it really isn't there yet.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that people deserve to be treated equally...but not everyone's reached a point where they agree with it, and changing minds is one of the hardest things to do.

And your saying in these journals that Americans should just mind their own business about this social injustice because its not their country!

Stop telling the people who are trying to do the work your saying is the hardest thing to do with people EVEN HARDER! This kind of global network given to us by the internet NEEDS to be used this way to fight social injustice like this! This kind of work NEEDS to happen...NOW so that the slow process of improvement can get moving!

If people did what you said and let stuff like this just happen or too *mind their own business* we would never change anyone's minds...ever

Actually, you can do whatever the hell you want. I'm just saying the only people who will change Russia are the Russians.

You need to stop making everyone who doesn't agree with you into the enemy, the world isn't black and white.

Incorrect...what about the pressure from the outside world on the U.S Bills SOPA and PIPA? Don't underestimate of GLOBAL public pressure against something...it CAN do things.

Hell what if RUSSIANS on the internet *Like you* sees these people making petitions online and thus learn about these bills and start voting against them or something!

I'm not making anyone my enemy...I'm just so mad when i see people telling other people that are doing what they can to help to *Mind their own business*

the power of*

sorry i'm dyslexic.

All too true, but you can only spread yourself just so thin. America's gotten itself so invested in trying to oversee the globe that it's going like Rome - rapidly decaying from the core outward with corrupt politicians and disobeying its own laws to the point of trying to incarcerate any who TRY to enforce those laws.

Since it is intense discrimination and endangerment of a certain group of people, it is technically a human rights violation and therefore an interest of not only America, but the interest and concern of the United Nations.

That never stopped America from pushing its mind and force through other countries, though. Ever heard of Operation Condor in South America, and the unwavering support of America for Israel?

America needs to stop policing the world. Its spreading our forces too thin and ignoring all the damned problems that are running wild here. Like our shitty immigration policies and our lack of border control.

Then why don't people complain about that then? I haven't seen any petitions demanding to leave the Jew state alone, or leaving the Middle East and let them kill each other in peace altogether. No idea why people get so worked out about a petition for gay rights, and don't care a damn about sponsoring a parasitic country like Israel.

That is a damn good question. Its cause our government has to be 'humanitarian' when in the long run: nothing we do over there will change anything because that is their nature and its what they know.

It can add international pressure, though. But then again, this country really can't talk much about gay rights while being overrun by Christian-fueled homophobia and hatred. But if you believe that it's not the place in America to say anything about other countries' policies, the first step would be sending every single U.S. military personnel back here, get every single U.S. military overseas base dismantled, withdraw from the U.N. (specially because of the U.S. bullying in the U.N. to protect its bastard child Israel), and so.

I personally would support the petition because I, as a foreign gay living here, know how it feels to have a society and a government that despises you.

People can complain and throw fits all they want. They can talk about change all they want but again, its not up to us to change that country because they could just as easily say. Fuck off, we don't have to follow your rules or what you think is right.

Yes, they could. But the U.S. still has a lot of pressure power. It wouldn't be that bad to put that to a good use, for a change.

I have to nitpick. Why you ask? Because I have NITS!! And they itch!! Thats why! Now sit down and listen while I get to scratching. The proper terminology would be that its the "Jewish" state, not the Jew state. Though in reality it would be "Israel" or the Israeli state.. unless you're referring to predominant religion, and which point it would indeed be the Jewish state.

To call it a Jew state:
A) Makes one feel that there is only 1 person there who is Jewish
B) Makes me think its extremely cheap (*chough*ok I admit that was a bit uncalled for but really, a cheap laugh people, please, its late and I used up all my good material ;) )
C) You're using internet speaks and ment Yew state.. which I suppose could work, its a very popular and pretty tree for landscaping.

*shrugs*

*shrugs to, not to be left out.. it might be some new fad and he doesn't want to be the last to know*

I've run out of things to say about this conversation.

Then my advice is we do a happy dance, and have gummy worms! I can see no flaw in this plan :P

I love gummy worms. I'm going to buy some now.

My plan is working already! MUWHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAAaaaaaaaaohhh.. hey.. wait.. I want some! *grabby paws!*

*swats your paws* Mine!

*holds his paws and sniffles* Fine.. be that way.. *grumphs and hugs his tail* I guess I won't share the pocky I got at the Asian store the other day.

I don't like pocky!

*runs away screaming in horror!*

*does a victory dance* Huzzah!

What is this mysterious pocky you all speak of? *sips tea*

What's exactly the difference between using "Jew" and "Jewish" as adjectives? I'm sorry, but English is my second language.

First off I must say your command of English is very good, and for that you should be proud of yourself. :) To answer your question Jew would be normally considered to be singular. He is a Jew, She is a Jew, and so on. Though sometimes it's considered less polite or derogatory to say Jew as it is a shortened form of the correct term. Jewish is the formal term when speaking about a nation or multiple people. These minor language rules are mostly annoyances that are specific to any one language and often not the same in another, you only learn it as you deal with it. Hope that helped some. :)

*nods*

*nodnodnodnodnods and now looks like a bobblehead fox*

Can we PLEASE not do this again? This is EXACTLY how the last journal went to hell. >_<

Yeah yeah.

You could always hide the offending comments.

To be fair, I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was just voicing an opinion. It just happened to be an opinion based on skimming instead of properly reading.

not gonna wade into that mire. . . there'd be too many to block, anyway

I really am TRYING to be respectful, mind you...some of what was said towards my opinion was really hurtful, though.

Hopefully I didn't say anything hurtful. I do tend to get my jimmy's rustled, but I try to avoid being too mean.

Even if you did, I'm willing to let it go easy enough, especially if you're willing to cop to it if you did.

...I don't remember if you did or not, but it means a lot to me when people are willing to own their mistakes. I do my best to, as well.

I do not feel i said anything hurtful to you. I only asked you to think. If you feel I have in some way insulted you, I am regretful, but not sorry.

I think you're a bit prideful if you feel that way, but I can forgive it either way. To assume I didn't think about it and come to a different conclusion is...I'm not sure what that is, actually. But this isn't mathematics, so the problem doesn't necessarily have the same answer.

Again we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

I respect how calm and well worded you came across. Seriously dude. I don't know how I stand on this, I agree with you more than not. And ignore what people say. You did a very nice job staying polite and level headed through all the people freaking out and insulting you.

I feel like I was a lot closer to the edge than you might realize, but I'm glad I came off better than I felt like I did.

Yes, and your opinion is stupid. Why? Because you implied that this issue stops at you own borders. And that is bullshit. Gay people all over the world are being treated like complete shit, in the most assbackwards parts of Africa and in parts of the middle east gays are killed just for being gay. Why? Because of hate, political nonsense and religion.
I don't know about you, but I won't stop voicing my own opinion until gay people are treated properly. I will sign petitions and verbally crush those who treat gays badly based on ridiculously stupid BULLSHIT like christianity, islam, any other ancient fairytale or simply based on political nonsense. And I also don't care where it happens in the world.

Thats kind of harsh.. I may agree his logic was founded on incorrect, incomplete, or false assumptions, but an opinion is an opinion. It can't be stupid by nature, just right to the person that has it and maybe right or wrong to those who don't. All you can do is try and convince them otherwise by showing what you feel is compelling evidence, not try and be rude or bully them into it.

I don't care about harsh. I am always rather blunt and I don't like to censor myself just because OH MY GOSH I MAY HURT SOMEONE'S FEELINGS!!
And no, I disagree. An opinion can always be stupid. Take our german politicians for example who believe it is ok to deny gay people their rights based on a fairytale like christianity. That is not a very smart opinion to have if you ask me!

Just because you are blunt is no reason to be rude. The two are not mutually tied to the hip with each other, there are many ways to say what you want in a direct manner without being abusive so your comment of "im blunt and don't censor myself" is not a valid shield to hide behind because you wish to demean someone. A point I am sure you missed was the fact Yamato apologised for misreading it and misunderstanding the petition entirely.

As to your opinion on opinions.. I can only say... Thats your opinion.

I don't really know anymore, maybe I'm just so pissed because they are not allowing it here in Germany because of such a retarded reason. It's the fucking 21st century and we are still judging others on 2000 years old fairytales >__> You have no idea how much that pisses me off.

It happens here as well. The world evolves slowly, the larger the nation the slower the evolution. Getting worked up and commenting about things without thinking through clearly what you wish to say or convey, especially online, only furthers the negative thoughts and feelings. Often times this causes a chain reaction with others feeling hurt to where they want to lash out at someone. All it takes is a little time to calm down and concisely and clearly state your views, and why you feel that way.

I agree with you entirely.. its sad and reprehensible that they treat people , gays, anyone, like that just because of a belief rather than an actual. I can see the person next to me, I can not see faith. Which one of the two should i care about the safety of more? That said, I still have to respect the right of someone to believe what they do, even if i do not agree with it.

Mull it over for a while and come back with what you truly feel and why in a clearly defined statement. I am sure we will all appreciate the effort you put into a response and will appreciate your viewpoint for the meaning you intend. :)

That is tough because I actually do see people like that as an enemy of humanity.

Oh also, you don't have to respect anything. Respect is earned and not handed out like chocolate. Religion certainly didn't do anything to have earned respect and neither did 99% of humanity. The word you are looking for is tolerance^^ Tolerance is much more important than respect in my opinion!

Ahh, but you missed the point, I said respect the right of the person, not the person. I respect rights and freedoms very much, many people have fought and died to uphold every freedom we have. For better or worse, that is the state we are in and the rights and freedoms we, I, have.. i respect greatly.

Well, alright. Yes, human rights are probably something that actually deserves respect^^

And that is why you take time to read carefully and then form a response. :) It's also what got Yamato in trouble, he only skimmed ;) Still, I was serious. Think about what you want to present with your views and feelings and I promise to read it and reply. :)

P much.

Also, I read "Well, it's a different COUNTRY they can do what they want!" as the exact same statement as, "Well, it's a different STATE, they can do what they want!"

I really don't get that a degree of political boundary is the difference between someone supporting the fight for basic human rights or completely ignoring human rights abuses. It's 2013, for real.

We are all humans afterall.

You = not helping. You're kinda perpetuating previous drama, rather than diffusing it. Better that you just drop this altogether, as should everyone else who made the mistake of focusing on the political aspect.

I love how Rukis says to be polite and decent and you come right out swinging calling people stupid. Good job

This is simply a topic that pisses me off to no end. Gay rights are still being debated in my own country for the most retarded reasons, religion being one of them, so if someone says that we shouldn't care about people who are in an even worse situation that kinda makes me go apeshit.

i honestly don't see what this has to do with another nation when its said to help out a friend i for one am in full support for all gays to have full and rightfully attained rights just as everyone else in this world whats the big deal im not seeing it its to help out someone who needs it id love to support but i don't get involved in politics for numerous reasons many of them personal not going any further than that

id love to support this in any way i can

For what it's worth, I commend you for taking a stand for your friend. Much respect, and I feel the same towards it as you do yourself.

Heh... asking people to be decent and respectful, yet they drag the same arguments over to this journal. /smh

I'm gonna go work outside in the barn for awhile, and if it's just continuing like this when I come back, I'm going to wipe both journals, I swear. This sucks.

working in the barn is the best for making problems go away <3 :) I do it all the time.

Ya try to do nice things on the internet...and this is what you get. :(

At most, you did what your friend asked to support them and their feelings, and that's all that needed to be done. Don't feel bad about this, it's not you that's shitting on all of the well wishes and we can only do so much.

Take care and I hope your Russian friend is doing well.

...I tend to believe in speaking to people directly when you have a problem with them. Also, I'm trying to be respectful in this discussion, either way. I'm FAILING in some cases, but I can admit that too. >.<

true

It's sad to see it starting all over again in this journal as well. Do what you have to. I know I appreciate the information at least.

Oh, hope i dont offend someone :(

I don't really know how I feel about the issue, but i don't see harm in a simple petition. but I did wish more people took more action than just a small petition, if everyone wants change they have to BE that change!

*the issue being all the arguments in the last journal, not the bill being passed XD

That's a good idea, but do you know what to do to get that done?

I think we should start shagging in the streets ASAP

way ahead of you

lol ok, i see that shit starts here again 0.0, some people should get a hobby, really !

oh dear. oTL good luck

Russia wouldn't even listen to countries and other groups who told them they where over fishing certain species out of existence and that they should cut their fishing industry back a little.
Russia are your next door neighbors who wont turn down the music at 3am and are friends with the police chief.

It's a shame that you have to make this journal, and people immediately bring the topic of the previous one into this one.

Given the emotiveness of the topic under discussion, I'm actually surprised that the comments on the other page were, by a fairly large margin, mostly at least moderately respectful and reasoned. Mistakes and miscontruals notwithstanding.

True, it was basically a big political debate, not really a lot of flaming. I guess thats a step in the right direction for the internet?

I apologize if I caused any trouble. Didn't mean to, I'm just a firey internet jackass.

As Ghandi once said, "you must be the change you want to see in the world."

Ghandi also said..

“A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.”

The word kaffir was used in the former South Africa to refer to a black person and is considered a racial ethnic slur. It was one of hundreds of recorded instances where he showed intense vile racism towards native black Africans. Food for thought.

Be Careful who you quote, for he may suffer from foot in mouth. :) Also I seldom get to quite the darker side of Ghandi and it seemed like a good segway ;)

Ghandi hated black people? GASP! B-but, Martin Luther King Jr. modeled his whole approach after Ghandi... <i>what madness is this?</i>

But honestly, I'm actually relieved when I hear stuff like this. It shows that even the greatest men have flaws like all of us little folk.

Ahh, the joys of a big steaming helping of reality. :) That said there was nothing wrong with the teachings and general sentiment Ghandi was trying to portray. Its just fun to point out no one is a flawless saint, except perhaps Weird Al Yankovic... but thats where I draw the line.Perhaps by being flawed it shows the greatness that he was trying to teach in a more human light, and make it more accessible by the common man. We are all great and horrible at the same time, to be otherwise would not be human, the trick to to learn to portray our best sides whenever possible for the betterment of all. :) *hugs!* :)

Yep, but see thats how it is. "YOU must be the change you want to see". Not point fingers and say,"YOU MUST CHANGE."
Lead by example.

TLDR; America needs to get its sht together and be the shining example. Eventually....hopefully. -facepalm-

If it makes you feel better, Rukis, your heart is in the right place, just like the person who made the petition. I salute you for trying to help someone :O3

The one thing that I have to say about this is that I see a lot of people using the word 'non-American' in the context of the debate and its a little condescending to do so, if you get straight down to the point, every single mixed, or even 'pure blooded' American, isn't actually American. They are foreigners to the American shores that were either born, raised, or arrived in America as immigrants, the whole of the Northern Americas is filled with "non-Americans", and its that diversity that made this country into the melting pot it is today, immigrants from foreign countries, no matter where they arrive from, come here because its considered a land of opportunity, a land where their beliefs and ways of life were promised not to be oppressed, where they could be free to express how they thought, felt, or wanted to be heard without fearing everything they did would be a problem for someone else. It was the intention of our constitutional forefathers that America would be a land free of oppression, where you could live a life you desired in the pursuit of your own happiness. Over the centuries however, that constitution of simple human rights has been defaced, re-written, claused, amended, and violated by our subsequent leaders to exclude certain races, creeds, religions, and orientations, what was written was in simple black and white: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL MEN are created equal.

Until people actually remember that this statement was to include all beings of the human race, regardless of who, or where they are from, there will always be an issue with people not being treated fairly, simply because the attitude of most 'Americans' nowadays is "Its not our problem, we don't have to deal with it."

Yeah, we have our own problems to deal with - most of it going back to paragraph one, above. And the kleptocratic monied elite who are squeezing the life out of our country one right at a time.


Native Americans are the exception to that, I would assume, since 'hominids' didn't start in Australia or Argentina, either, and migrated there to be considered 'Native'. Anything after 1600ad would be immigration.

Let me be the change I want to see in the world.

A motto to die by

Instead of more controversy heres this instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtX.....XUeUcdlXwg5ptQ

BBBBBbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! *runs around screaming in a muppet flail!*

Its a bird!

Its a plane!

It IS a plane!

WITH DOCTOR BEES IN IT!

This situation has not improved with the addition of more bees!!!!

"Thank you, Father!"

"Loud Noises!"


Cheers..

Fucking Russia...who cares?

Russia still isn't of my concern since I, as a citizen, can't do anything to help you. We've got our own gay rights issues and litigation over here to deal with.

The whole WORLD should technically be our concern, when it come stop this issue. But that can only change one country at a time. Gay/lesbians should have a right to be free REGARDLESS of what country they were born into. Not everyone got to CHOOSE where they ended up in the world. =/

*comes to stopping this issue, fuuuuuuck my life T_T

I'm honestly not concerned with and do not follow global politics. I only really honestly care what happens to me here in my own country, because it's the only country in which my voice--my vote--can do any bit of good politically, and it's the only place I desire to live on this floating space rock.

Gay rights are more important than the country?

*sighs*

Rukis, If i started, and or facilitated some stress for you, it was not my intent.

*sigh* I believe Equal Rights for LGBT is a global issue.
Alas, no good deed goes unpunished even here on FA
I am very sure there are some other Russian furs that saw that and maybe even contributed. Who knows?
You may be right...it's the Russian's business what happens in Russia, but we should be aware of our brothers and sisters struggle in other countries...even Russia, don't you think?
= "the answer"

All we need is .., ..
is all you need

Yays!
*gigglebark*

*pouncefloofs!* And thats how a fox does it :P

Rukis, I believe it is best to take down both Journals. Unfortunately, too many people are in favour of "No Respect" especially towards other humans.

I really wish all humans around the globe would respect one another. It's very sad to see this is not the case, especially here on FA.

I'm of the mind that Russia preventing gay marriage and parenting etc., is very discriminatory. I'd like for gay couples to have the right to be together and raise a child. If they have the smarts, the means, and are fully capable of taking care of a child, then they should have that right. I see a lot of straight couples around home here where they have no two clues how to take care of a child. I'd much rather see a gay couple full of love to the child rather than alcoholic straight parents who let their child go hungry and lock 'em in their bedroom all day long.

Anyway, it's sad to see so many people who don't care about anything/anyone beyond 2 feet in front of their noses.

Are you sure about this whole respect thing? Does Average Joe, who did nothing huge in his life deserve respect?
I don't think so. He deserves to be tolerated though!^^ Respect is something that you earn. In that regard tolerance is a lot more important than respect.

Respecting someone in the deep sense is one thing, but every human being deserves to be treated with respect, whether you feel positively or negatively about them.

People talk about earning respect and 'respect' needs to be earned, but decent treatment, even good treatment should be a standard.

Yes, and that is part of tolerance, not respect.
People who actually accomplished something for all of mankind deserve respect.

So no one deserves respect unless they won a noble prize or something? Doesn't seem right to me.

As I said, respect is something that you earn. That is why I think tolerance is much much more important than respect.

Oh okay, misunderstood you :P Gotcha now

I just don't like how people are literally throwing around respect like candy.
To me respect means to put something above all else as an example for what humanity can do. Human rights deserve respect.
But the reason why I think that tolerance is more important is simply the word implies a basic understanding among all of us and to work together as a whole. And I also think that people and concepts that work against that don't deserve respect or tolerance. That is also one of the reasons why I hate religion, it actively works against this common understanding between all of us.

Indeed, I agree with you lol I'm also a VERY opinionated liberal and republicans, who I think are more religious, can't stand that because they support anti-gay and anti-women legislation for example.

and I'm like "Just let gay people marry and tolerate it. It's not effecting you in anyway" but nope, they always bring the bible into it and tell me that it's wrong and yada yada yada because the bible says yada yada yada.

The bible also says that in a divorce, the women must be stoned and killed, might as well do that too if they're going to bring up the bible
I tolerate people that don't agree with gay marriage even, but if I tolerate them, they better tolerate my support of it. :P

Which is why I agree with you.

You are absolutely right! Gay marriage wouldn't suddenly make their own marriage illegal or force them to marry poeple of the same sex.
Also, Deuteronomy 22:13-21 says that a marriage is only valid if the woman is a virgin. If she is not she should also be stoned to death. I just love how they keep hammering down on the whole gay thing but conveniently forget about the whole virginity thing ;D
Religion in itself is nothing but cherrypicking. They don't like gays so they ban gay marriage. They like having sex so let's just forget about Deuteronomy. But you know what? Shellfish tastes pretty great, too... So let's only keep the whole gay thing from Leviticus and forget about the rest he said. And while we are at it, let's forget about everything that was horrible in the old testament because Jesus said so! But we have to keep the ten commandments of course.
Bloody hell...

Exactly, lol if we still lived by "marriage is only valid when yada yada". I guarantee that 50%, or MORE of women in the world would be dead, maybe even 70%-80. I know I'd be dead, as well as my friends and family who are women. We aren't in the biblical times anymore lol.

And yeah, their cherry-picking is even going so far as to destroy women's rights. I'm not a feminist, but I'll be damned if someone tries to stop me from getting birth control and calls me a whore. Which sadly has happened before, about 5 times in the past year here in Alaska and its terrible, women shouldn't go through that. I'm sorry but most Republicans (not all of them) and most Christians need to learn tolerance.

Yeah, it really is disgusting. A woman should always have the right to decide over her own body. Terminating a pregnancy and birth control are part of that.
This whole abortion thing is ridiculous anyway. A random blob of stemcells is not a human being. That is like calling a seed a fully grown tree! Once it's a fetus and just grows we can start talking about a human but before that? No way.

Yeah, once it's about 12-16 weeks then yeah, I think that's the deadline of termination in my opinion as that's when it enters the 2nd trimester. And about birth control, birth control pills help women more than just pregnancy preventions, like it helps with hormone balances, acne treatment, ovarian cysts, weight gain/loss, etc. I could go on about how most health insurances cover viagra so an older man can have sex and not birth control that has much more health benefits buuuuuut I disgress lol

Oh yes I know about that!^^ My sister had some issues and got the pill for that as well.
In my opinion anything that could potentially survive outside the womb, even with a lot of care, should be called a human. At 11 to 16 weeks you are pretty much done, you are just growing inside the womb.

exactly! I like your thinking, good sir!

Unfortunatly many people disagree with that position. People who try to avoid butting heads with those religious fanatics at all costs because "OH NO, YOU MIGHT OFFEND SOMEONE!!"
I always like to quote Stephen Fry in that situation: http://blog.flicks.co.nz/wp-content.....12548805_n.jpg

I have to disagree, many people have found the discussions informative.

I think a lot of the comments on the other journal came out of ignorance, or out of skimming the related/relevant documents. Either way, though, politics are always going to divide people, I just hope it doesn't continue to the point where help you were giving to someone else drives you nuts.

Have a nice day

The cause is good but the petition is pretty badly written.

I am not quite sure what they are asking to be done and on top of that, it is called the Magnitsky list not the Manitsky list.

Whether you think we shouldn't tell the Russian government what we think or not doesn't matter. People are being suppressed. The worst thing that could happen is that they don't listen to us.

Actually.. the worst thing would involve nuclear weapons, 4 rhubarb upside down cakes, 7 metric tons of fake elephant poop, no less than 36 hours of back to back Oprah specials and a really really bad hair dresser.

That said.. Your icon is adorable! :P

I could take anything but the bad hair dresser. Thanks for the compliment.  electrocat did this for me.

How about a semi skilled hairdresser and a professional makeup artists from the 80's music video days? And you're much welcome! :)

I could probably get by with a paper bag and an 8 track player.

Only as long as you have a full quadraphonic sound setup. ;)

I'm really sorry Rukis, that you just trying to help a friend has sparked such a selfish debate among other users.

YOLO I don't care what happens in the world. Lawl. Irrelevant to me.

Damn you and your floating space castle!

You can't catch me! Kekekekeke

*chases after in a space plane made out of cheese from the moon!*

It's pretty easy to say that, until the day those "irrelevant" problems end up affecting you or someone you love directly. Gay Rights is a crisis that affects EVERYONE. Regardless of what country they're from. =/

Shit, there should be legislation where all Russian citizens are required to make weekly crash compilations for YouTube.

Rukis, any time you mention anything regarding politics, religion or x-civil-rights there's going to be a big holywar. You really need to mention in the VERY FIRST SENTENCE that you're not going to put up with it and start blocking people that get out of hand.

Furries are not so big on tolerance if the issues don't pertain to the fandumb directly. Even though they/we like to believe otherwise.

Leave the journals up even if everyone's throwing a fit. You would be silencing a channel of discussion, even if that discussion is a bit heated. It will do you no harm to leave them. If someone really feels attacked they can personally take that up with fa admins.

I agree with this. Some of the things I've read through these journals today were enlightening

Amen to that. I posted a journal myself yesterday about a petition but it seems to have turned into a debate. And I fear the original intention of the petition will get lost in the shuffle.

the same thing happened to me a couple weeks ago. don't take it down if you dont want to. if ppl have a problem with you supporting things like that in other countries, then they can write their own journal to complain. "if you dont have anything nice to say, then dont say anything at all." its not always right to shove your opinions in other ppl's faces just because they dont like your journal. (n continue it on another..) who cares if you posting from another country doesnt help? who is it hurting?

I'm gay, for gay rights, etc etc blah blah blah...

...but when you put any hot button issue on the interwebs and say "discuss," the internet is going to shit its happy panties in response. Pretty much always to be expected.

Got that right.

I hate to say if when you open up a topic that give people choice to just do something or be an ass they most of the time chose to be an ass. I respect you view on this. Weather people are straight, gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, Christian, muslim, white, black, green or what ever other color, sexualtiy, or religion, its THEIR CHOICE and they do have rights as human beings first and formost.
So I applaud you and sign what you posted. Gay rights are finally moving here in the USA in a more positive position. Dont see why other countries need to be buck ass backwards on this.

Politics, sex, Religion, and of course Money. The sacred 4 that always spark off a storm.

So saying the idea of trying to get the hate and intolerance out of politics so we can deal with each other as fellow humans is a great idea but sadly most politicians are there for *each other* and not for the folks that voted them in :/. I applaud wanting to get a petition going to change things as its up to us to make the change happen.

Gaia bless for pointing this out Rukis and a big soft bearhug for you
Pakesh_De
Chaircritter for furnal Wquinox

Cant people ever be decent on journals like this :(

I love to help which is why i signed the petition. every little bit helps ><

I just wanna add my own two cents to this, I consider myself a human rights activist and LGBT supporter BEFORE I consider myself an American, and I'm willing to bet that people who are signing the petition also feel the same way. They're not trying to interfere in other peoples' business, they feel like it IS their business concerning a global issue, and as fellow human beings.

i signed the thing beforehand, and i do hope the dram from the last journal didn't stress you out

Well I'm just fucking floored somebody thought it would be a brilliant to bring up the exact same issue in the exact way that would create yet another shit storm. So much for respect of the wishes of the author of the journal guys, especially when there was another journal where these things were being discussed.

Signed and made a journal of my own to spread the word.

You either sign it or not and leave. Its simple as that.

Sorry your journals were needlessly turned into such issues

However, I did become aware of the petition because of it, so thank you ^-^

As I have to say to a friend of mine quite often. INSIDE THOUGHTS. Everyone has a right to an opinion, and everyone has a right to express their opinions. However, there ARE times when voicing your opinion is not acceptable. A journal asking a friend for help is not a place to spit all over that person's plea for help, regardless of how "useless" it may seem to a person.

There's a difference between having a right, and knowing how to accurate make use of said right.

Also, I'm glad I saw this journal, to be honest, because I have now seen the petition, and will also spread the word.

"The only thing the bad guys need to win is for the bad guys to do nothing."

That is all I'm going to say on this matter ;)

The more rights this world has the better,by signing the petition your not disrespecting the country or the government and since most of the people signing it aren't government officials its not our government telling another what it should do but the people and as people were all in the same boat and have a say to protect our fellows rights.
This petition is not an excuse to treat each other like crap but an opportunity to help out others in another part of the world to have rights.
Not signing it is okay its your right but bickering at each other if you do is just silly ,lets all take a deep breath and treat each other with some manors and respect.

History will out. Russia's political elite has made a horrible mistake because they refused to pay attention and learn from the past. Shuttering knowledge only makes people seek it all the more intensely. So, in essence, they've guaranteed promulgation of all the things they wanted to curtail (which is exactly what happened to the Old Russia and brought the Wall down).

Now they'll have to swallow that bitter pill - and it won't go down easy.

Holy Shitstorms, Batman.

I believe that it is faith, considered, and thoughtful [literally, filled with thought] that is a foundation for betterment personally and socially.
Without faith in something besides yourself or at least outside of yourself, you tend to put yourself first, foremost and to the detriment of those around you.

Religion is a structure that's meant to build faith. However, some of those who profess to preach and teach and champion their religions are truly warped individuals who have sublimated their personal wants with the greater good. And the greater good to me..... can be defined as such:

"To do unto others the best that you have in yourself to do. To be unto others the best that you can be. To live AND die for the dignity that is inherent to the human condition. And to uphold that dignity and the preservation and protection of that dignity in others."

Amen to that sir. This is the one thing that narks me about Religion , those who twist it to their own ends, the extremists. In america, we have the bible bashers, who will use any scrap of the bible they can to justify their small-minded actions [usually rednecks...] , and in foreign lands various terrorists who quote the Qur'an as their motivation to blow innocent people limb from limb. It makes me ashamed to say i'm a Christian , ashamed that i beleive in the morals and values of the religion.

I feel that is wrong. I've always been open minded , in fact Jesus himself was open minded atleast in his outlook. My favourite question i heard once was this. Do you live like Jesus, or like the Pharisees. The pharisees lived by the holy texts word for word , and Jesus did not. Who was more influential. I say i am a Christian becasue i fel it helps me better myself and live for a cause greater than my own personal ends. To be an honest caring person in a world that seems to broken and faithless.

I don't know what comments you were reading, I just went through 90% of them, and all but a few are very civil. There's not really any name calling or insulting stuff, just difference of opinion.

People have a difference of opinion. I think its good to see both sides of a coin. Not everyone will agree with you.
I can understand people being afraid if we police other countries, then we don't want them interfering with our stuff in matters they don't understand.
We did intervene in WW2, but that was a war not a petition to sign. I feel bad in how Jews were being treated, it was wrong. We should of stepped in earlier. I think we have our own problems too with our things going on. Theirs many problems around the world. Child sex slavery, child abuse, children hurting in factories. What about those? is it our job to step in? But think of the people, they're humans like us who need our help.

Then again, I am loosing my house and my family is disowning me. I feel bad about those treated wrong and I think about me. I wouldn't mind people helping me out. Then I think, what's the best thing to do? What's the Right thing to do? I guess it be help one problem at a time and when weighing the pros and cons; a petition to sign and say what you're doing is wrong, then I see no harm in it when it comes to helping a fellow human being. I wouldn't mind a friend spreading the word to help me out. I think my life experience has made more more humble and thinking about those treated wrong. They didn't chose to be gay. I didn't chose to be like how I am, I wish I was someone else. I didn't chose the situation I am in. I would love to have someone to help me. So I think why not just help another person in need of help.

For what it's worth you've done nothing wrong Rukis. You were doing nothing more than trying to help others. And for this I commend you.

Thank you for having a heart Rukis.

Be decent?! But I already took my pants off!

*Reads journal* OOOHHHH! Ah, ok then . . .

>>
<<

Hello,

For what it's worth: a [non-furry! they exist!] LGBT Russian friend of mine made a very similar request as you, Rukis. The situation over there really is grim, and his take was that pretty much the only thing that seemed to help was pressure from outside. So thanks for giving this a signal boost.

Yes, we do !

And yet the whole Uganda fiasco had EVERYONE in Agreement, but when it comes to Russia, several hundred people don't give a damn. Weird.

You know, this might be a little off topic, but I never have understood that. Why is it that there are so many people out there who can't disagree with someone without making it personal? I've actually had people start lobbing some rather pointed insults over some of the silliest things and it really makes me have to ask...when did being 'right' mean the other person had to be some sort of monster or less than human?

I've read a lot of the comments on both of the journals and honestly, both sides have points. I think it IS a little pretentious of America to try and force other countries to do things they way they want and there is a long history of that. America has gone into other countries and tried to change the entire government because democracy is the best, regardless of what the country and its people want. That being said, human rights isn't an issue that should be ignored no matter what country it is in. So, I guess it really comes down to how it is handled and what America does, if anything.

Sorry...got a little babbly and maybe a bit preachy there. I'll go back to lurking around, staring at the pretty porn/stories, and make the occasional attempt at humor. ;)

The "not my / our problem" fraction should be aware that this table may turn one day.
Then others will say "not our problem" too.....

http://youtu.be/qgYDwJLqYHU

It sad that a lot of people don't understand how the government or politics work in this country let alone others.

Russia may see that Americans care about others, but all they may think is why should we listen you gay Americans? Sad to say but they dont really care about what we think.

And who knows maybe the people of Russia will stand up for their gays. But as long as violence is there and people are more afraid of their own government and neighbors they won't do a thing.

Best thing America can do is accept gays from Russia that would like to live in America...


I support the gay people in Russia and at home, but we are talking about culture that we don't fully understand and a government that has just come out of strict communism.

Besides shouldn't we clean up our own mess before we try and help other. America left the Middle East in a mess. Shouldn't we help them just as much as people want to help Russia (who has no wars, fighting, rights/law, or wounded people right now?)

These are just some random thoughts I don't take them to legit

Also if you watch the video I posted its only for lying to children soooo...

It sure the people are gonna go against a unanimous vote for the bill from their government

Hi Rukis. Hope You enjoy Your journal comment section turning into an internet drama
Sorry to be a sarcastic ass, but You know the saying "No good deed goes unpunished"?

As for the rest of You guys, I kinda noticed that in neither of the journals did Rukis ask for opinions, she merely suggested that IF You wanted to sign the said petition, You COULD do that via the specified link. For voicing out opinions and discussing politics and what not, which is commendable, there is a thing called "Forum", I believe, or a "chat". So, why not drop the issue now and finish it someplace else (I won't be attending, just so You know)?
This is my humble unasked for opinion on the topic of this journal and if You want to respond or oppose to it, I suggest You DO NOT post it here (unless You are the author of this journal), You can always send me a notice or shout me down as much as You want. Thank You

I don't support gay marriage issue but I do support ruckus posting in supportof what he feels is right. That's my $0.02