I tried to help other authors once. Upon their request, even. Mostly I just got blowback and flak. So, it'd have to be someone really open to criticism and improving. I haven't found many of those yet.

Yeah, I know the feeling. Or the ones who ask for help, but clearly don't even know basic grammar. Things like verb subject agreement, consistent tenses, and such. Don't even mention "viewpoint" and switching between first and third person.

Admittedly, not everyone who wants to write is that clueless, but I feel like somehow I have ended up with more than my share.

You. Me. Choir. Preach.

I'm hoping that people that apply to be a mentee will do so understanding that they want/need some guidance in their writing. I see where you are coming from though and have dealt with similar issues.

Problem is, all these people really wanted my help. When they saw how thorough I was, they balked and a couple got nasty. Makes me just want to write and keep to myself.

Like I said, your reasoning is totally understandable. Let me know if you're willing to give it another try.

Honestly, I'm not sure. With my workload, at my job and with my stories and my job search, I'm stemming the potential flow by charging, like that recent journal said. It's hard enough scrounging up cash for bills right now.

Take some time to think. Making sure your own life is in order is of a much higher priority. If you even mention this idea in passing to some other writers that'd be a huge help. I know that a lot of people don't read journals.

Yup, I can totally signal boost.

There's a lot of sensitivity to criticism to overcome and a lot of "year this apart because I don't like it not because it's not well written" to overcome. I think it can be done but it'll be a tough road.

Agreed. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, and the feedback stays completely constructive and justified.

A newish writer and would love feedback and criticism doesnt bother me. I am starting a book project so it would be helpful for sure.

I have added you to the list. Lets hope this all comes to fruition!

I would love to start writing more, and a mentor could help a lot, but any mentor that could work with me should deal with my poor understanding of english grammar rules (I'm a native spanish speaker and learnt by myself almost all I know), I try my best to fix any mistakes I do, but there are a lot of rules I just don't know.
Oh, and I also tend to write a lot of F/F adult stuff.

You're added. English is indeed a tough language to grasp; that's why 90% or something of English-speaking countries don't even have a firm grasp on the language. Takes a lot of work

I'm a newish writer as well, who certainly enjoys constructive criticism (so long as that person also doesn't mind explaining to me why x is bad), so I would be interested. I can't write as much now though that college started, so I want that to be out into the open as well beforehand.

Sorry, I probably came across as really picky or something, I just wanted to be as honest about myself as possible.

Don't worry; you're added. Write at your own pace, and you can even have your mentor look at older stuff if you want notes on that.

Thanks so much! I appreciate it!

Everybody has their own lives. "I'm really busy" is the number 1 thing I see in anyone I talk to, writer or otherwise.

I'd be quite interested in having someone to take serious looks at what I can make and tell me what I need to fix or strengthen. It's not easy to come by that kind of open criticism for me. While you could throw me in the mentee category, I consider myself a decent writer and would be glad to help out other writers if you'd like. Just let me know. :D

Added! You'll be in the kind of in-between category.

Sounds good.

I would love to try this. I certainly need help in several areas, but I seem to know enough to help some. So please, keep my name in the query.

Added! You can also go in the in-between area.

Thank you, kindly. Just alert me when ever it's time.

Will do

I'd be quite interested in this, but mostly from the perspective of sharpening my own craft with other professionals. I'm definitely not at the "just beginning" stages these days. More at this point I'd like other for-money published authors lending their valuable time to vet and sharpen my stories and do the same in turn. Unfortunately, what I'm thinking of is probably more akin to a "peer consultation" than a "mentorship" in the traditional sense.

And the truth is most of the professional writers have a lot on their plate, and their time is valuable.

I think this initiative will be great for getting starting writers past their first hurdle or two, but there's going to be a big void in that long, long road between "just starting" and "people regularly pay money for your words".

And from my point on that spectrum, I'd rather be spending my very limited spare time reading and mentoring folks who've come most of that way already. If I'm spending more time critiquing spelling and grammar than I am dialogue styles or thematic elements expressed, then it's going to be a bad use of my time.

So, I guess... put me down as being a volunteer for "polisher". If your story is already print-worthy or close to it, and you want that extra oomph or a detailed eye? I can do that. I'll leave the big red pen circles to editors though. :)

Judging by that last paragraph, you're trying to give me work! I can appreciate that =)

I'll add you per your specific requests. You'd probably benefit from the partnership option, basically sticking another writer around your level with you to go over what you notice in each other's work. Obviously to be able to learn from a highly experienced and established author is always a plus, but help is help!

You know all those meme pictures of someone smiling and the caption says "I have no idea what I'm doing!"?
That's me writing.
lol

Joking aside, it's a good idea. Luckily for me I've already got a couple of people looking over my proverbial shoulder, whether I want them to or not.

haha. Thanks for the support!

Perhaps this is what you speak of?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0HX4a5P8eE

I remember that commercial so well. Right before the housing crash of 2008. It's quite ironic.

I don't think I'll have ever seen that particular ad on UK television, but I get what you mean. I also laughed.

I'm happy to mentor. I'd prefer to be a manatee, but it seems we don't need as many of those. XD

I'll switch you then. I've seen your writing and you can definitely help out a lot of underdeveloped writers.

Thanks. Hopefully I will learn from teaching; I've been told that it's one of the best ways to learn.

I would like to throw my hat into the mentor ring as well, although I'd say my skill with writing comes down to content more than technical percision -_-

Added, thanks! =)

Wiser words have never been said that compare to these: "Everyone has room for improvement, not one single person is perfect in any craft."

Before you can mentor someone I think this should always be remembered. Not even a mentor is perfect, I fear that with such a title some may let it go to their heads.

Also, you'd have to weed through the Nazi's of the writing community to find good mentors. >.<

I always offer advice to other writers regardless of being a volunteer. Encouraging writers to write on is a fun past time of mine. Many a time I've had my mind blown with the creativity of some of the new faces here on FA. They did lack grammar and punctuation skills but the idea was still there. It's even better when they accept advice and learn from what you tell them. <3

If anyone wants me to look over anything and give my thoughts I am always open for such. Though I am brutally honest; I keep a friendly tone at all times and I certainly love seeing new idea's take shape. If you can paint a picture in my mind, I would love to help you go as far as you want. ^.=.^

Added. I do agree that a some 'better writers' in communities tend to have an elitist attitude. Just gotta find the ones willing to use their experience to help rather than to gloat.

I think this would be good for me as a writer as well. Maybe it will even help me bring life back to my own muse eh? hehe

Thanks for the opportunity to help out. <3

I'm not exactly a fledgling writer, I'm past the there, their, they're stage of my writing, but I would like a little help with plot development, using less thinking words, and basically moving towards the publishing point.

But I also can add a few words of wisdom as far as grammar and not using cliched plots. :D

Added. You'll be in that middle realm as well.

I have two really big concerns:

1) You could end up in a blind-leading-the-blind situation. Some Dunning-Kruger-afflicted amateur who believes himself to be enormously capable and goes on to seriously misguide his "apprentice." I've seen loads of frankly terrible advice given out at panels at cons. I can't imagine what would stop that from happening here.

2) There's not really any motivation for the mentor. The mentored get something out of it, because they get criticism and advice, etc. The mentor, however, gets only the ego boost of being named a "mentor" and the steadily diminishing satisfaction of helping another person. If I have spare time, I'm dedicating it to writing, editing, and the various other tasks related to publication. I just plain haven't got the time to walk someone else through his paces. I have a suspicion that those volunteering to be mentors are seriously underestimating the amount of time and work it really takes to read and provide a deep, considered, meaningful critique. Even if a mentor is willing at the start, give it a few months, and it's kind of a thankless job.

There's a reason that nearly every webpage offering advice on forming a writer's group suggests trying to find people around the same skill level. A group of peers who are willing to collectively read each other's work is far more likely to succeed. For one thing, the benefit of doing all that work is mutual--you're working hard to critique someone else's writing, sure, but you know that they're going to do the same for you in a few weeks. Secondly, you're getting multiple perspectives on your writing instead of just one, and that's vital.

1) It's less about the mentee blindly following advice and more about the mentor sharing experience and tips to help the writers better their own writing. It's to help the newer writers know what to look for in fixing their work as well as ways to generate new ideas for themselves. Anyone can learn from anyone is essentially the rule followed here.

2) I understand what you're saying, and I have two responses of my own.

The first - As I mentioned above, anyone can learn from anyone. Whether I put two mid-level writers together with clashing styles who can help fill in the gaps the other has or if I put a novice writer with an experienced writer, there will always be learning to had. Anyone who doesn't think so falls under that 'elitist' category that I'm trying to help the guild avoid.

The second - Why does there need to be a big payoff? Whatever happened to doing good? When you walk in a cancer foundation walk-a-thon, do you expect to be rewarded for your time and effort? When someone takes a lot of time and effort to write a story to post online for free, do they expect everyone that reads it to page an entrance fee? No. The whole point of the guild is to help develop current and new talent. If we aren't doing that then there's frankly no reason for the guild to exist.

Whoever signs up to do this will need to put some work in, sure. We also aren't talking about professional writing coaches here. We're talking about one writer mentioning a couple tips to another. I don't expect a term paper out of each mentor on each story they look at. I expect a few bullet points on what can be improved with some explanation.

I agree that we can do a lot with writers at the same level helping each other. That's where the 'partnership' part of this comes into play. Writers working with those along there own level, perhaps with a contrasting style or weakness to someone else's strength. We're obviously not going to know what kinds of pairings we can have until we gauge the interest level first.

Skill level differences are reality. As much as I wish the world were egalitarian, it really isn't.

I'm sorry if that's hurtful, but let's take this to a different level. Reducto ad absurdum.

You cannot tell me that Stephen King is on the same talent level as myself. He is worlds above me in talent and in execution. I acknowledge this because it is reality.

You may subjectively enjoy my work, or the work of another writer, more than King's. That's perfectly valid. But it is very possible to objectively judge the quality of writing in an academic sense.

What do you get out of it?

Well for one thing, you get a captive beta-reader. Even if the mentee is not great with editing, it's another pair of eyes on your piece that can find mistakes or make observations. Every set of eyes help.

Because I know that I'm not going to mentor someone if they're not willing to give back (in this case, reading my stuff). Quid pro quo is only fair.

Ah! Dunning-Kruger effect! I've been wondering if there was some term for that, as it's something I've noticed a LOT of. Lot. Thanks for giving it a name for me.

Dunning-Kruger: When you're too inexperienced to know what things you're too inexperienced to know about!

Pretty much! If you ever want to see it in effect, hop in a game of Dota 2 or League of Legends.

ill like to just if its happening

I could use some mentoring.

I figured you'd want to be on the other side of the coin. You are added as desired, though!

When I get good enough, then I'll try to teach.

I believe that before we start a mentoring program we should build on the aspects of languages. Some people prefer to write, or can only write, in other languages, like Spanish. One of my novels is currently being written in Spanish as a graduation thesis. What then? o: I do like this idea though. I also think that we should have a conference, or some sort of paid workshops, on critique and giving criticism, emphasizing on how to word critique properly. Most of the times, at least in my experience, the problem is not with the critique but with HOW it's said. People need to learn to be sensitive to the author when it comes to evaluating a set piece, may it be art or otherwise, while avoiding sugarcoating stuff. Rather than being destructive, people have to be supportive, noting the bad AND the good.

To me, criticism is empty if it doesn't mention someone's particular victories in the particular work being critiqued.

And another thing. Membership should not be restricted to people just because their main written language is not English. This is one of the disagreements I've had with FWG for some time.

Before I say anything else, let me make it clear that I do not have any authority and do not represent the FWG.

I think all of your points are valid and worthy of discussion. Please join us at http://www.anthroaquatic.com/forum/index.php so that we may further discuss the particulars of your situation. Best wishes.

I do agree that, in your case, the mentoring program here wouldn't be very effective unless you either wrote some things in English or we had another writer that was proficient in Spanish literature.

However, the guild does not directly say that Spanish writers are excluded. The qualifications are still the same: you either need to have one published work in a paying furry venue or two published worked in a non-paying, but exclusive furry venue (basically you need to submit something and have it be accepted).
I honestly am not sure if any of the publishers have been sent any Spanish/non-English items. Something you'd obviously have to talk with them about. You could have the first published Spanish furry novel in a paying venue, though! So that's a goal for you.

A straight up mentoring group is probably a bad way to go. Much better would be to set up a writing group (or groups) with 4 or 5 or 6 people per group who help each other.

That's not a bad idea either. Granted you could get enough dedicated people to follow through with it.

I'd agree, but the problems ends up being delays in communication between the group. If you only have two people talking back and forth, they can work out times where they can actually live chat with each other via Skype or whatever. You get four or more people all in different timezones and that becomes an impossibility.

Just because each writer will have a mentor/partner doesn't mean they still can't ask another for advice. A third opinion isn't always a bad idea.

It isn't that difficult, honestly. Just set up a time for the group to hop into Skype or Google Hangouts or whatever you prefer. Just needs to be one hour every week or two. If someone fails to make it one week it isn't a huge deal, they can show up next week.

Between time zones, people working full-time jobs, and general lack of availability it does become that difficult, unless we look at people's schedules before we go on. Imagine having one person from California, where they have school weekdays from 2pm. The next person is from London where it's 10pm and they are in bed because they have to work in the morning. Then the person is school also works a part-time job on the weekends, taking up most of them. Someone else is from Virginia and works full-time in a retail job, which includes weekends. they'd probably work a rotating schedule including weekends so it'd make them hard to plan much of anything.

Then maybe some of these people have social lives.

I'd also like to think that the mentors/mentees would talk more than once every two weeks. I imagine a lot of the communication would be by email, sending links to stories and asking for feedback, something that would get rather cumbersome if each member of the group consistently had to submit replies to multiple other people.

We can try to plan 'double dates', if you will. Two mentoring pairs have a conference and discuss each other's work. That would obviously plan on the ability of each pair, however.

Not any more difficult than organizing anything else. People really make too much of the time zone differences, and yes I have experience with such things thanks to playing in several online D&D games. If someone wants to be involved in something they will make time for it. Period. Otherwise they don't want it all that much, do they?

In any case, regardless of how you decide to set things up I'd be happy to get involved.

The problem of requiring too much effort out of a volunteer project is something I'm trying to avoid. Projects have a way of dying this way.

Glad you're willing to be involved!

I don't know if I qualify as an "experienced" author, but I'll toss my hat as a mentor.

Your record speaks more confidently than your words. =)

Added to Mentor.

I know that this was something I would've probably appreciated, since there is no furry writing skill. Unlike conventional writing, even though the two share several things in common, there are no classes for furry writing, nor really controls to prevent bad writing. Egos run rampant in some places, especially in self publishing or kickstarted projects, and I always felt like such a dick asking for help. Like how dare I consume the time of Kyell Gold or Whyteyote when for all I know it may end up accomplishing jack sh*t. While the above person somewhere was like, what does the mentee get out of it for imparting knowledge to a noob, well.... I am the other side of that. I am so respectful of the authors that have earned their place that I dare not be so rude to ask for their help. Not to mention every furry and his brother asks the top 5 for help I am sure. I can't really afford to go back to school for an English degree, and I'm not even sure if I can control my anxiety long enough to write again with joy.

Of course, with the above expectation of a payoff, then that person should not expect a large influx of growing talent. If those of us that came before hoard our knowledge, then every person must start from bare scratch. This is not what the itnernet, schools, and so on are based on.

I have no idea of what use I'd be.

Other than the fact that I am seriously considering reviewing some of the furry books I have read that were especially bad, though I fear fan reprisal.

I can put you in the in-between category. Your skills definitely could help out some newer writers, and someone with a bit more experience could really help take your work to the next level.

This is the problem that I tend to see with the 'top level' in the furry community, not just in writing but in art as well. It seems that the more prolific/talented the person, the less time they seem to have to help. I know that some furs do all of their work on top of a full-time job, but I like to use myself as an example. I work a full-time job. Granted right now my job is so dead that I work on half of my editing/FWG stuff at work, but it isn't always like that. That just allows me to take on something as big as the FWG while still working on other things.

Never be afraid of fan reprisal when doing a review. As long as your points are justified and not 'this book is bad so me no likey' then you don't have to listen to a word the fans say. It's like when a huge fan of Nora Robertson/JD Robb gets upset at someone because they pointed out a few really bad mistakes that rather stop the flow of the book. Every book has mistakes; that's why I tend to skim-read most stuff I actually read (curse of being an editor) because I'll see those mistakes and get hung up on them. Does my own writing have mistakes? Sure. Does this post? Probably. People need to get over thinking that their favorite writer's book is perfect, because in no way, shape, or form is it perfect.

Of course, I've been a terrible excuse for a writer this year. I haven't written a word since November, and I take months to reply to rps. :( But anyway.... I know that I don't expect most active writers to have time for random dude number 5, of course. If I'm anything I'm courteous, I don't want to be 'that guy' that's like OMG teach me how to do what you do as I know artists and so on.

I have a full time job too, of course, I have to focus all my attention there just to make sure I don't fall behind. For a good long while I couldn't wait to get home and start typing, but the pull isn't as strong as it used to be. I know traditionally I haven't been all that good about sticking to things I'm supposed to do. Character flaw, I guess.

Well, I know that I can write a review, but of course the question is if I can do it without letting my emotions color my assessment. I'd have to pull them off my shelves and skim them.

I know that a big problem in the furry community is that a good part of the writers are really, really bad. Add to that a good number of them write just for fun, and thus react unpredictably to criticism (myself included), and then there are folks that will be like, 'it's a good book, that's all I care about' and that'll be that to them. Of course, I don't suppose I can convince everyone, but I do think I'd like to say what I feel, though one of the things that has held me back is the writer is a friend. Of course, IMHO, and I hold myself to this standard as well, when you start accepting payment for your work, the safety net disappears are you are subject to criticism.

Life gets in the way. Everyone understands that it happens and no one blames you for it.

Who knows? Maybe working with another writer will help get you inspired again.  dandin and I were talking yesterday and we just mentioned a few words about names, then all of a sudden we both had a really crazy story idea that we both kind of wanted to write (even though it would end up being a terrible story). It doesn't take much to spark creativity, and once that gets going there's no telling what kind of motivation you'll have.

I'd be hoping that the writers who both write for fun and don't care about improving would not volunteer for this. Everyone whose in this program should either have a desire to improve or a desire to help others improve. Those that respond harshly to constructive criticism and feedback shouldn't be here. On the other side, those that find that deconstructive criticism and harshly-written feedback probably shouldn't be mentors. It's really about helping each other; not putting each other down.

Yeah, I suppose, but I'm still working on both the heart and a few other things to make me want to do it again. I used to love getting new ideas, now I'm not sure if I ever really managed to be all that original.

Though the review I'm talking about would have nothing to do with the mentoring, it was some books I read, some of which were enjoyable to me and others that honestly were really not so good with IMHO obvious things like one dimensional characters, convenient plot twists.... Contradictions in logic...

Of course, I don't suppose I can convince everyone, but I do think I'd like to say what I feel, though one of the things that has held me back is the writer is a friend.

Just jumping in here. >^_^< It does get kind of awkward with furry writers being a small group and there being various circles of friends (or cliques, if I'm being uncharitable), and being worried that the person isn't going to want to talk to you ever again if you say something negative about their work. I know of at least one furry writer who won't review for that reason, and there may be more. I'm sure there have been horror stories with people overreacting, much the same way writers do to well-meant crits on FA and such. It's an odd situation anyway, with the fandom sort of dissolving any boundaries between creators and consumers and critics.

I would say, though, that as long as the review is fair -- in other words, you're pointing out both strengths and weaknesses, and not being sarcastic or snarky -- I think most of the published writers in the fandom are mature and professional enough to understand that it's not personal. I think in some ways the tone of the review matters more than the content. And if they're not mature and professional enough to deal with it, then you know who not to review again. Or, if you're really worried about your relationship with this person, I suppose another idea would be to run the review by them privately first and ask if they'd be okay with you posting it. (And if you can't say at least something positive about the book, then I wouldn't risk the review or the relationship.)

Of course, for all I know, you could be talking about my book. And if you are talking about my book, then I'll tell you straight out, I'd much rather have a balanced review (or even a somewhat negative one) than no review at all just because the friend is concerned about hurting my feelings. Yeah, I'm human, I'd love glowing reviews, but to me things like snark and almost mocking the work are what truly hurt, far more than fair criticism.

(I should probably amend that to say that I would hope most of the published writers in the fandom would be mature and professional enough to understand that it's not personal. I'd like to think they'd be, anyway, though I could be wrong. That said, I do understand why some writers don't review books by people they know, and why they'd want to just steer clear of the whole thing.)

That is true, there are no real barriers between the writer, the fan, the critic, and the purchaser. I'd never thought of that nor considered it when I considered writing as something I might want to step it up.

I suppose that I should be able to manage to be fair, though I know my overall assessment will not be positive (not that I hated the books, but they clearly needed more work before publication), which incidentally was self published.

I know that there's the 'if you can't say something nice' train of thought, but honestly that never works on the internet that I've ever seen. I just feel like if no one ever tells you you've got toilet paper on your butt, you'll never pull it off and figure that out. I normally don't criticize most, even when it's deserved, but in this case the person has mostly been their own editor as far as I know and as such in my opinion has not advanced from book to book at all. I guess on one hand it isn't my place to judge, but if I never say anything... I suppose as long as I keep emotion out if it, it's within reason.

And I'm not talking about your book, in this case, but I will review it.

Well, something else to consider is that, generally speaking, reviews aren't necessarily written for the author's benefit but for potential readers'. Sometimes they can help authors see weaknesses to improve on in future books (if the author is open to that or even bothers to read reviews), especially if the same overall weaknesses get pointed out more than once. But for the most part, reviews are aimed at letting other people know whether the book's worth one's money and time. So that might be something to keep in mind -- that in essence you're talking to the readers/public, and not to the author.

(And if you need an electronic copy of mine to practice on, just drop me a line here. Offer also good for anyone else reading this who's willing to write a review.) >^_^<

True enough. And I suppose in that spirit I've attempted to keep that in mind when writing my review. I'll probably do a few more, if folks really are intested.

And I meant no furry writing school. Not skill. Brain no workie.

Just to clarify, these pairings would not be permanent nor exclusive. Just because Mentor A is helping Mentee A, Mentee A can ask Mentor B for a second opinion if they post that they are willing to give these second opinions. Or if Mentor C and Mentee C aren't working out and want to swap with Mentor D and Mentee D, they can do so.

The initial pairings are more for getting the ball rolling, so to speak. They can always be tweaked.

Maybe I'm just lucky but I've had some really helpful, positive experiences on both sides of the equation. I find similar level and taste work best, but sometimes it's interesting to get or give perspective on something that's not usually your thing.

Er, I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm in.

I have checked your name off again, as you were one of my original two in there. =)

I'd like to sign on as a mentee...

Added! It's interesting to see some established guild members on here as mentees. Nice to know that people aren't afraid of learning more!

I'd like to be a mental patient....

I'm with Dandin up there; I want to be a manatee. >^_^<

Poemanatee doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Well, being honest with myself...have I been published? Yes, twice, but it was in con books. Have you seen what's good enough to put in a con book?

Do I have a cloud of admirers who flock to every journal I make? Do I have enough watches to have contests about "Watcher number X000 gets a free doohickey!" No, I don't. So I probably have some things to learn. :D

Enh, writers don't really get those to begin with. You want that, you're better off learning to draw.

I was being kind of snarky. :> It's a bad habit.

But seriously, it's hard to portray myself as established or talented when I've been too timid to even try "getting out there", submitting things to anthologies and publications. It's safer to stay at an amateur level.

It's also very dangerous to the ego to go further than that. I know I wasn't really sure I liked it.

With the caveats that I have absolutely no guarantees about my commitment level or capacity on top of everything else I'm doing, I'm interested to see what happens if someone else is willing to run this. My life got simpler after RF, but only somewhat.

Just let me know if you find that you become a bit more free in the near future. I'm sure you'd be quite a benefit to this.

I've been on the fence about this... but I think I'd be up for it? I need critique and more refinement so... I'd like to please sign up to be mentored?

Added! Thanks for taking the plunge.

Can I be added as a Mentee?

I can also give constructive criticism as well, but I wouldn't consider myself mentor material just yet.

Can do. Thanks a bunch!

I'll go ahead and join up as well.

I think as far as tutelage is considered, I'm mostly in-between. Probably want to put me in that halfway group.

Friday/ Dandin and I talk nearly daily on skype now, and our schedules sync pretty well. We're more than happy to work together, but we'll go where we're needed.

I’m pretty tempted to give it a try as a mentee.

Go for it! We're always taking more applications for mentees, even if we don't have a mentor for you at the immediate second.

I'll add you and send you the questionnaire via note. You'll be getting it in the next minute or two.