Pretty much what's been on my mind but more lengthly and better written.

Fucking signed.

Thanks

I guess you can put me down as a "leaving", since once the decision was made, I've deleted everything.

once the decision was made, I stopped updating, since there was really no point in dragging on the drama once the damage was already done. You can read more about that in my latest journal, but yeah... it's sad to see so many people leaving, but I fully respect anyone's decision to do so.

You can put me down under considering leaving if ya want.

There's a slew of others artists who are leaving if the ban doesn't go through, though I cant remember half of their names at this time.

Yea, I know... I've seen a lot of others two that just didn't come to mind as I was writing this. I wish the community would come to their senses about it...

Thanks for the input - I added you to the list.

Yea, I know... I've seen a lot of others too that just didn't come to mind as I was writing this. I wish the community would come to their senses about it...

Thanks for the input - I added you to the list.

heh, didn't catch and edit fast enough... sorry for the double post (typo)

Megan Giles, Thornwolf and Xianjaguar will leave as well I believe.
I know there's more but I can't remember all of their names off the top of my mind.
Personally I'm probably also leaving if they allow kiddy porn.

Oh, and Chris Saywer, Kaputotter and Zetallis.

Kaputotter already said she wouldn't leave regardless of the decision. Do read her journal before making assumptions:

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/51498/

I distinctly remember that in the comments in the journal of a mutual friend that she said she -would- leave if pedo-porn was allowed. There were 3 or 4 of us expressing this opinion and she agree, too bad she changed her mind.

Don't assume I assume, asshat.

Hey, if you want to go by second-hand information rather then getting the information from the artist first hand, that's you choice and indeed your assumption in the end.

Insults aren't really necessary to make a point, now are they?

"Hey, if you want to go by second-hand information rather then getting the information from the artist first hand, that's you choice and indeed your assumption in the end."

Okay mr. Know-it-all. Kaput said a few times she would leave the site if cub porn is allowed. She changed her mind. It's her decision.

Now I know you didn't want to remove a picture that was reported for being against the ToS, so cut out the "I'm hollier than thou" attitude. I'm still suprised you're an admin after shitting on the ToS.

It's being amended in any case, so you can cut out _all_ of the unecessary unpleasantries please.

I saw it first-hand.

What were you saying about assumptions again?

Actually, Kaput was kind of pissed people would say she's leaving FA over something that is as frivolous as this subject.

Nice to know she thinks it's "frivolous" that people are saying stuff like "Raping children isn't as bad as raping adults" in defense of this shite.

At least she won't be burdened with my respect then.

Not everyone has the same priorities or beliefs as you. I would suggest you leave this website and find a gallery where people who think differently than you will trouble you no longer.

And to clarify, the "frivolous" comment refers to the bullshit furry e-drama.

Thanks for the input - I've added those names to the list... some more reasons for me to reconsider staying as well it seems. It'd be a pity to see you, Thorn and Xian go... I love your work.

Thank you :3

I'll be around ofcourse, just don't wanna hang out with wannabe-childmolestors :3

Seconded.

...Or, obviously, the many thousands of other users of this who are not "wannabe-childmolestors." I feel that FA administrators made their decision to the best of their ability, without either A) stepping on legal interests while B) promising you and everybody else a method by which to shut out these interests for yourself or themselves.

Leaving this site won't necessarily get you away from wannabe-childmolestors. They walk around, go places, go to conventions, and talk. Just like you or I do. Or anybody else. Scary, no?

I hate murder, rape, and cub pornography, and quite strongly. And to me, those three things, and other things unlisted, are all equally terrible. To leave because one of those things is allowed, but not because the other two are allowed... Well, it comes off as a double-standard.

But in the end, really, the choice to leave is based on your own opinions and is your own decision, and nobody can stop you or make you but yourself. Just remember that the members of FA who thrive on cub pornography are a very, very small minority, and are not representative of the rest of us.

Add me to "I'll Leave FA" list.

How selfish of me... add Calorath to the list too.

and here for some reason I thought you had already left =P

added, and thanks (:

I'm waiting for the official annoucement before jumping on "BAWWWWWWWW CUB PORN IS ALLOWED" bandwagon. Besides, my art prolly will be here, although I won't update no more.

1) That's a mute point, as it could be applied to anything the people in charge dislike. If the laws were to be changed,
the then illegal art could simply be removed - it would be tagged and therefore not hard to find.
To the rest the first sentence applies. And yes, it might be a bit more likely to happen with cub than with other
types of art, but really, the difference is minimal.

2) Moral is totally subjective and not based on rational logic. Which means one could just think about his morals
and change them - or preferably discard them altogether, but that's a bit too much for most people, so just ask
yourself this: What exactly is bad about cub art? And no, reasons connected to the depicted acts done in reality
are not what I'm talking about.
Pedophilia acted out in reality is something that could be discussed, but art? Of what use is your stance on the matter
for you? None, maybe? That is what it boils down to, as there's no logic reason for this kind of art to be 'wrong'. Or is there?

3) We already have a bad name. To someone outside the fandom it really doesn't matter where some kind of art is posted,
as long as it's associated with the fandom. Meaning for them we're all pedophiles, as long as sites like cub central exist.
Inside the fandom...Well, I've talked about that in 2).

4) Personally, I'd rather have one site without restrictions of any kind as far as furry art goes than one with and some
more artists, regardless how well they may draw. I couldn't care much less about someone who's not even able to
use fundamental logic.

5) This may or may not happen as far as the flood of new cub artists goes, but it seems you've forgotten about the filters.
It's not like you'd even notice they're here if you don't want to. You're using the slippery-slope argument here, by the way.

5²) I'd rather exclude narrow minded people that can't even control their own morals.

I often wonder why people are unable to question moral. Do you know?

Amen, and to this end I offer up the intelligent thoughts I tried pointing out in the middle of the flame war.

One) We're talking about mature cub art, not porn.
Difference being tasteful nudity vs. sexual acts, explicitly shown.

One is nowhere even close to the borderline of child pornography as confirmed by both FSC (Free Speech Commission) and the USC (United States Code)

To confirm this, any one of us can go to a bookstore (Large name btw, like Hastings, Borders, Barnes and Noble) and find both art and photography books by a number of professionals which depict images of nude minors.

If I were selling art books would this cause me to want to tell my publisher not to sell to distributors who stocked these places? No. It's stupid.

Morality is just like religious beliefs, we all have our own, and the moment you start trying to -force- them on someone else, you've stepped across the line of what is feasibly intelligent, because the harder you push, the more the opposition will push back, and it will lead to a split.

That's how we end up with different denominations and faiths in the religious world.

My .02

Verias

Am I the only one thinking "mature cub art" is a negation in itself?

Yes, the wording is almost paradoxical, just like saying "adult cub art".

Still, what I wrote stands based on the definition given.

Put me, Winged Siamese, Gutterhorse, Kilojara, Bloodhound Omega, GrayWolf, and Resilient as folks who will leave if its allowed. There's a lot of us =(

Yeah, it's sad... I hope the community can come to its senses before it shoots itself in the foot over this crap/ *hug* thanks for the input... added you all.

I couldn't have said it better and I totally agree.
It's about time someone draw the line somewhere.

Thanks.

I'll be leaving as well. Airu will also be leaving if it is not banned.

Thanks for the input - added you to the list. Here's to hoping this ToS lift doesn't pass.

Signed.

Agreed to every single point but the morality one. Morale in a society is defined by the group, not by every single individual, else anybody could do whatever they want.

And the defintion of fandom morality is mood. There is none.

Thank you, even if we don't agree on that issue, you're entitled to it.

with you there.

I'll be going... it's just too dangerous to be associated with.

And I joined right before all this went up and had enough time to really,... really like this place.

Yeah, it's too bad when crap like this happens... I really hope it doesn't turn out that way.

If it doesn't, and you're still around, I'll be watchin'. You have some nice stuff of your own, which it would be a pity to see go. (:

You can add me to the list of Most likely to leave if it is allowed.

Thanks for the input - you've been added... hope it doesn't turn out like that.

Sadly enough even though I'm not well known chances are I will be leaving to. It's becoming sad really when you look at it from different perspectives. I love art I really do but I have to draw the line at some points. thankyou for putting this up (just found this on the forums heh)

Aye, I know how you feel... you're welcome, and thank you for your input. I've added you to the list.

I'm also one of the folks who will leave if it is allowed. If you can, add me to the "Will leave if it is allowed" list

You too eh? that's a damn shame... I really hope it doesn't come to that - your art is some of the best I've ever seen here. *hug* I've added you to the list - thanks for the input.

I didn't even know you were on FA hunny and I watch you on DA..weird? I think so too. o_o

Just... wow.

I voted for allowing cub-stuff, and even went so far as to press my position in the forum thread for a few pages. This wasn't because I hold any personal or moral position on the stuff, but because I tend to think little good can come from such restrictions as the ones suggested by the opposing argument.

However, after reading your summary of the sitauation, you can call me converted. o_o

I enjoy debate for various cathartic reasons and have had a great deal of practice, but your reasoning is watertight, even to an opposing perspective. The points you make are nearly all irrefutable, and after rethinking the matter, I know that if I could, I would go back and switch my vote. I still dislike the idea, but with all the points laid clear, the necessary choice is plain to see.

Many, many thanks for being another island of sanity in the partisan whirlwind that this issue has become.

Thank you. It really means a lot to me that it was well-recieved like that. I just hope it isn't too late to keep the community from shooting itself in the foot, so-to-speak.

With so many great artist leaving, the admins would destroy this community that they had worked so hard to build. But why would they do that after investing so much time and money? Is it so that a tiny minority can still post adult furries fucking children.

The fact that this question is even being asked at all makes me wonder if the roomers are true that some of the FA admins are into cub porn.

If the admins have even half a brain, then they will keep the ban and maybe even enforce there own rules.

I agree wholeheartedly, but it is clear to me that, as you said, the fact it was put to poll at all indicates that something is getting in the way of the admins' objectivity. I don't know if it's an appreciation for the material discussed, or just a desire to appease the people in support of it, but their beliefs in the community are clearly misplaced to an extent.

But what good is it to appease those who support child porn if the a sizable number of artists leave because of it. And these aren't just any artists. These are the best of the best.

The artists are the life blood of FA. Without them, this community will never be the same.

I know this isn't my site to run, but it's obvious to me that the admins are being pretty fucking retarded.

That is EXACTLY why I made this journal. It is EXACTLY why I am against allowing it, and it is EXACTLY why I am very disappointed in Dragoneer and the rest of the administration for the horrible decision they made on the matter.

They just ruined a thriving community of artists with their own stupidity and incompetence, and I will not forgive them that.

You are spot on when you describe what horrible mismanagement of FA they have done. By the way, have you been reading Dragoneer's journal postings? They come off as both pathetic whimpers and the sort of propaganda you would expect from a loosing politician in denial. If Dragoneer has to promote his site as "THE NUMBER ONE FURRY WEB SITE ON THE INTERNET" when people are leaving, you know he's got some serious problems.

He also made a post asking who was still out there and if he could have some "kisses". My interpretation is that Dragoneer didn't expect so many individuals and so many big names to leave. After pouring his wallet, heart and soul into this place only to have his web page rejected by said big names must be heartbreaking for him.

But you know what? He brought this upon himself and I have no sympathy for him. He was warned repeatedly, but he didn't listen and now his ego has received a great injury.

This is precisely what happens when the person in charge caves to the whims and opinions of his underlings. What he spineless? You bet. After all, Dragoneer original said he was against cub porn, but his staff disagreed.

A real leader stands by the choices he makes and is confident in them. Dragoneer made a choice, but now feels dejected for it. Was cub porn worth driving so many people away? I think not.

By the way, I go into more detail about this affair in my new LJ, which cna be found here: http://evil5miley.livejournal.com/370.html#cutid1

I'm really not an artist I'm afraid to say. Still, that doesn't change my position, nor should my name be removed from that list.

You're a colourist. You're a half artist!

As well it shouldn't... I myself am no artist, but a writer. Everyone is a contributor, and all opinions matter, even if they're just here to view the art and comment from time to time.

As well it shouldn't... I myself am no artist, but a writer. Everyone is a contributor, and all opinions matter, even if they're just here to view the art and comment from time to time.

Oh, thank GOD someone pointed out the thing that's been bothering me the most. The "slippery slope", so to speak. People are bitching that if they lose "cub porn" the next thing to go will be macroeexplodingdicknipplesex with herms with twelve foot cocks.

And I know I'm not that lucky, so...

Anyway, put me down for the "considering leaving". Not sure what I'll do quite yet. What I seek to get done is to attempt to find and/or start a site that would require submissions before accepting artists, as well as a hard R rating as far as art goes, and also, more tools such as stores for the artists to sell their work. This could be a potential migration, and I'd love to take advantage of it to find better places that might help to rebuild.

I noticed that falacy cropping up on page 1, and every subsequent page of that >100-page forum flamewar, so I figured it merited some mention... do I detect some distaste for much of that other stuff too? (;

I'll add you to the list of those considering... best of luck whatever the outcome. If you find a favorable pasture, let me know.

Very well said, Saicin. I will be posting it in my journal.

I'm actually leaning more toward considering leaving, but it's very likely to happen, but I suppose at this point in time 'leaving' is fine. I'm waiting for Dragoneer's commentary upon his return although just as Swandog said one of my major issues is that this debate even exists. This doesn't appear to be a debatable or questionable issue. It should be very cut and dry.

If I do leave, it's unlikely that I'll be going to DA. I'm not sure where I will be going, but I will make my journal more art oriented and people can view my stuff there (http://darbyburke.livejournal.com)

I know more people who're likely to leave, but I can't be certain how serious their considerations are. Needless to say they're two very well known and talented artists.

Oh and quick note, you're missing the 'g' in 'thegentilcat' :3 Hee.

Thank-you for posting this.

Thank you very much, Darby! I'm very glad someone like you is helping to spread the word.

I agree that it should be a very clear line, but as the polls show... well, I think the First Geek Social Fallacy I mentioned may have a lot to do with the amount of contention it has generated. A lot of the people in a community such of this tend to defend "freedom of expression" to the death, and some of the extremes they take it to... ugh. Would you like me to move your name to the "considering" list?

I've viewed a lot of dA's policies and MOs as antagonistic toward artists, especially anthro artists, so I can understand not going there... I wouldn't myself. JL has some pros, but a lot of limitations too, and one of the reasons I'd really want a site like this to stay is that it affords such a rare opportunity for people to see all their favorite artists' works in one place, and if they drive off the community by allowing cub porn, then, well... what's the point?

And thanks for catching that - I missed it in proofing somehow, but it's fixed now (or it will be, once I finish the next round of edits and update)

You're most welcome, and thank you again for passing it on!

~Earthshine Saicin

I don't think it'll matter whether it says considering or leaving, it's up to you. :3 I'm really torn about all of this. I think that's the best way to put it.

I really can't stand this much stress online. Such strife really should be kept to real life.

i will leave too
thats a stigma I do not want over my head.
very well said, and BACKED UP for once.

Thanks for the input, and also for passing on the word! I'll add you to the list.

Thanks again. I hope it can do some good.

Your argument is too well thought out and logical. I wanted some absolutes that I could type capital letters at you for.

own'd?

Verily. Though I doubt anyone would recognize my name, put me down for considering leaving. If they explicitly allow paedophilia I will undoubtedly leave at least for some period in protest.

Thank you. : I'm very much considering leaving FA if they do allow mature cub art, because of idiots who are supporting it. They have no logic behind why it should be allowed other than "it's not real" or dragging other fetishes in.

I just wonder why you have to explain in DETAIL why fucking children is WRONG.

EXACTLY my thoughts. And you have to explain it MULTIPLE TIMES, over and over again.

Because as you've mentioned, some folks (those who support the cub-porn) believe that since the child furry isn't real, it's harmless.

Which is just bullshit.

Just recently, a guy in my community got arrested for molesting children. In his possession were countless images of child pornography, including lolita anime.

These folks fail to understand that these sickos are getting off on these fictional images and, eventually, the fantasy will no longer satisfy their desires; hence they go out to molest the real deal.

In the end, images of fictional children (furry or not) do nothing but encourage these sickos to eventually act out their fantasies on the real deal.

Aye, and giving in to people who want that sort of thing to look at is like feeding a disease. In the end, someone gets hurt, and there's no argument for "freedom of expression" that can justify that.

This was going to be a big reply, but I changed my mind toward the end. I'll keep it quick: sick-minded people are not driven to action by pornography. People seek what they like, and if they want a certain type of mental stimulation badly enough that they'll abuse children to get it, the porn is only going to keep them at home. Those among them that have strong morals or ethics will stick with the fantasies because they know that's the better answer to their needs. Look at the ex-gay liars, or more appropriately the Catholic priest abuse scandal: sexual desire is hardwired into the brain and repression will drive people to extremes.

Porn is no substitute for reality. If it were, child molestation and rape would cease to exist.

Causiality is indeterminate at best, but even if child pornography does not fuel the acts of child molesters, why should we cater to people of that mindset? and more importantly, why should we find it acceptable to support a site that does, and post our art alongside it?

It's a matter of choice. This isn't a list of people who are leaving to make a point - it's a list of people who find child porn unacceptable and choose not to associate with a site that allows it. I will support them in that choice, just as I support the people who decide to stay in theirs.

What I won't support, is an administrative decision that favors allowing child pornography over supporting and keeping those artists who have voiced their opinion as such.

You can't explain why something is WRONG to people who have no moral standards. There's no point in even trying. So I appeal to logic... granted, it can look like some lack the capacity, but at least it's a shot.

I think the main reason so many support it is that they're just so overly dead-set against censorship, to the extent that they'll do ignorant - stupid things to prevent it... still, the line is clear to me, and it's disheartening that so many people fail to see that.

That standard is the high moral standard of acceptance and diversity. To this moral code, all other codes must bow. This is why they include anybody and everybody, just so long as they don't violate this high moral code. And you wonder why the pro-cub pornsters seem almost gleeful that the people who disagree with them are leaving. To them, the evil closed-minded people are finally being expelled from there utopia. This isn't simply immoral thinking, it is irrational, too. I hate to say it, but logic will not work on them either.

I predict that the admins will not enforce the fur suit porn rules and that this will eventually be removed from the ToS as well. If you stand for everything, then you don't really stand for anything, and if you don't stand for anything, then you stand for nothing. The entire world then looses it's meaning, which is exactly when one becomes his most selfish.

The problem is not the issue of the moment. The problem is that furries will always be furries. And every time a splitting issue comes up, there'll be a group that will leave, because of teh drama.

This time was cub art. But if it had been allowing / disallowing transformer-like robots with fur, ears and tails, there would have also been a (albeit smaller) group screaming "I'm leaving forevar!!1one"

For once, I say, I don't care what decision the admins take. I'll be more than glad to hold the door open for the whiners that say they will leave. The fandom can do without them.

Agreed.
While I've had my share and my opinion on this, I just kind'v gave up. I'm growing more sick of all the drama than the issue itself anymore. .___.' People are stubbornly sticking to their sides and throwing tantrums and just basically being stereotypical, immature furries. It's to the point where you can't refresh FA without getting 932570523 journals about it, jeez!

Yes, this time it was cub art, or more specifically _mature_ cub art, and I understand that no matter what the crosshairs fall on, someone is going to break off and leave. That doesn't make the ruling on this issue any less nevecessary however. I also don't think there's really any question of comparison here, and I sincerely hope that this will be the end of it.

Personally, I think the fandom has a chronic problem with undervaluing its artists, and those being affected by this are no exception.

I'm an "artist" and I still will be glad to see those crybabies leave.

If they go, 20 more will come to replace them, and nobody will remember them in due time. As I know that it would happen to me if I left. I really don't care a little bit. They sooner whiners are gone, the better.

PS: _Mature_ cub art FTW.

That doesn't say much for your own level of maturity, mind you, and it doesn't put you in a good position to be calling anyone else a whiner over the situation.

Double standards are so sweet.

You don't seem to have a problem having your art in a site that can be seen side by side with this: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/253214/

Pedophilia is not illegal. It's a sexual deviation / preference (depends on how you want to see it). A pedophile is not a criminal. Trying to make a pedophile a criminal is trying to make someone guilty of a thought crime. The act of molestation, on the other hand, is illegal.

Drawn depictions of the act are not illegal. It's a drawn representation made by adults, for adults. That's been more than overstated in the forum thread and is not an issue.

The rest are personal assumptions you're making with no proof whatsoever. Only based on your lack of information, fear and prejudice.

Wow, I'm sorry. For a moment there I forgot everyone here has a PhD in copy+pasting from the internet.

I'm not gonna bother to point at the top of this page, where this user has written in his journal that cub porn is legal. Instead of that, I'm going to invite you to put your money where your mouth is. If you're so convinced it's illegal, why don't you open legal actions against Cub Central or the new upcoming Softpaw Magazine?. You can't lose, I mean, you must be right, right?

It is not "illegal" on the grounds that age is subjective and no amendment has been made to make it verifiable. Nevertheless people HAVE been prosecuted for such offenses, and one of my friend's older brother was convicted a felon, served jail time and registered as a predatory sex offender because the police turned up hentai on his computer. If you think cub porn is any different, you are mistaken.

I will be posting this to my journal.

I'm more or less considering leaving... I'm not sure what I want to do. I'll make my full decision with the announcement of what they plan to do.

Being a mother I'm not to fond of the idea of characters that are not sexually mature engaging in sexual acts, it's sickening to me. To have that here will just not help the way other look to the furry community. It's bad enough that there seem to be a lot of fur haters out there already that consider us pedophiles. allowing this will just make it worse.

As an author of stories from a fantasy realm, I find myself wondering a lot if I am a hypocrite in some way. My Damien, for example, he is a demonic Felidae and Demons of the Tanberian races mature much faster. Unfortunately, their body does not grow with their maturity. Damien is physically the equivalent of a six year old child, but in maturity he's like that of an 18/19 year old. Further along in his story he does take a potion that makes him to look the age of his matureity, but it is before that he actually engages in sexual acts and even gets his mate pregnant. But then, he is consideres sexually mature is he not? Where as a lot of the cub art i see is of children that are not sexually mature. I've seen rape and incest and all sort of things of that like all dealing with a underage character not wanting what they're getting or being told it's alright. I'm sure there's a lot of things that are a lot worse too. Its that kind of thing that I don't like.

I don't mind nudity, we're all born nude, there's old archival art that depict child nudity. But it's the expression of the cub in a sexual way that really gets to me...

That's just my two cents. this is very well written and thought out. thank you for posting and letting others to see it. Again, I'm posting a link in my journal.

Also I need to add to this, after showing this to my friend he gave you a good cheer and said that there should be another category. peole that won't come if cub porn is allowed.

He's been thinking about coming to join here but won't if cub porn is allowed. he goes by the name 'Dash'

Ah yes, there is certainly that... just a bit harder to collect names for, since they're generally not here to read it (;

Thanks. I'm glad it was well-recieved, and I'll add that in.

While I do not share the same vantage point as you on this issue, I agree with what you said.

There are a lot of grey areas, and that's part of the trouble with trying to enforce something like that. If it were my ruling, I would say that is within the bounds of acceptability, since the character is clearly from a mental standpoint a consenting adult, however someone else may view it differently, and that's a possibility we as writers would need to be prepared for.

Tasteful nudity is apart from the issue in that it celebrates the body's form, be it animal, human or somewhere inbetween. I don't see it as a problem, since as you said, we're all born nude.

Thank you very much for reading it and for giving your input, and of course, thank you for passing it on.

considering leaving
wessa

Thanks for the input - I'll add you in.

Brutha, you win at least two intarnets. Kudos and a-fucking-men.

Also, you made me go "SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE SNORT!" with the "some of the *best*-part in your speech. AZA IS PLEASED, nevertheless due to sad kiddieporn-reason <3

Hey, glad you approve - let's just hope that we can approve of the admins' ruling on this when it comes (:

Already left weeks ago here.

--

Have my own message in my Journal, it's not as nice as yours.

I try really hard to be nice... sometimes, I succeed (;

Thanks for the input - I added you to the list.

Well said! You can put me under considering leaving, too.

Thank you Shani, and for your input. I'll add you to the list *hugs*

I had assumed like most that the idea was about allowing cub porn. However it seems that the admins were actually considering allowing what amounts to mature cub art. I support the ban on cub porn like most sensible people. However I do not support a ban on non sexual mature cub art. Many things can be considered mature including: blood, nudity, violence, swearing, drug use and similar. However when any of this is in a sexual context it should be banned, even if it is mild.

An example of mature cub art that I would consider acceptable would be a baby breast feeding with its mother. An example can be seen in Kacey's gallery. Likewise children in violent situations would be acceptable as well; at least if we dont consider japanese RPG's and coming of age animes to be unacceptable.

I say ban the cub smut but don't limit storytelling.

I agree with all that is said here. I believe the line should be drawn with under-age art that depicts *sexually*-mature themes and the like. Artistic nudity is not a part of that (such as with Kacey's example) nor is violence/profanity/drugs etc.

There will be grey areas of course that will need to be up to the interpretation of those tasked with enforcing it... hopefully they won't limit that which is within reason, but nevertheless I'd be a lot more comfortable with it if I were the one writing the ToS... heh.

I agree. The real debate should have been about clarifying the TOS more than anything else. Unfortunate that the very nature of the discussion was so polarized.

This has kept bugging me, and this is the first I've seen the issue addressed so finely. Why is sex so much worse than violence? If the root of the issue is the age of consent and the maturity required for it, why allow drug use, violence, and other adult themes while banning sex? If the age of consent and maturity aren't the crux of this dramastorm, what is?

I'm just having a hard time picturing a rubric that gives the okay to a darkly themed picture of two thirteen-year-olds in a knife fight but bans a happy little doodle of a fourteen-year-old masturbating.

I believe it has to do with a combination of our psychology and biology. Consider this, to do all those non sexual things requires no physical prerequisites. However when a sex act is performed it does require the body to be in a certain state. It's not that sex is worse than violence, it's that sex requires a certain set of criteria to be met. If those criteria are not met then the individual is not seen as being capable of sexual acts. Thus the sex act is imposed on them and is seen as a violation.

Simply put a kid can go through the motions but can't actually masturbate.

Another example not involving children would be a person that can't swim being thrown in the water. There's no betrayal of trust of the innocent in violence or drug use so we feel less compelled to protect ourselves from those things.

However the current trend in society that even adult sex is worse than violence is just retarded :P

I have been masturbating to orgasm since I was 13. This wasn't any innocent rubbing for pleasure, either; it's roughly the same thing I do nowadays. I've gotten better at it, but little else has changed in 'going through the motions.' If your intention is for the cutoff of 'cub' vs. 'mature' to be puberty, then by all means, say so and I will be more understanding.

Since puberty progresses differently in everyone we can only assume post pubescent to acceptable since it does guarantee readiness. Age is not an accurate tool to measure sexual readiness, but biology is.

I started masturbating around the same age, though not to orgasm. It's also the origin of my inflation fetish . But I was certainly not sexually mature at the time.

Since pedophiles tend to be attracted to underdeveloped features they would be less likely to be attracted to an image of a sexually mature 14 year old. I also doubt artists that draw sexual cub art would go so far as to include fully developed sexual features. In the realm of furry it would essentially make their age simply a number since they would no longer posess child like features.

In a word: society.

Western society as a whole has adapted to accept violence more than sexual acts. It's evident in the way mention of sex and the like is considered taboo in public (a conditioning that the furry culture as a whole is less affected by) while war games are produced and passed around by everyone from private VG developers to the national military.

That doesn't make sex any *worse* than violence, but it does make it a far more sensative issue, and one that people need to take caution in dealing with. As for pedophilia being an even greater deal...

Did you realize that pedophiliac pornography is the only form of 'artistic' expression that is illegal?
Murder is illegal, but drawing or writing about it is not. Have you ever seen "Battle Royale"? It's one of the darkest depictions of child violence you can find, but it's still a perfectly acceptable and marketed film.
Rape is illegal, but expressing or enacting 'rape fantasies' in life or porn is not, provided the act never occurred.
Child molestation is illegal, but on top of that, so is child pornography. If you're caught with such, you're more than likely convicted a felon, deemed a threat to society, and registered as a predatory sex offender. Jail time is almost a certainty.

Yeah, it's some messed up priorities, but that's life, and you need to live with it, or bad things come your way.

Actual videos of rape and murder are illegal to sell, so far as I know. Enacting "child molestation fantasies" with real people, especially minor actors, is some very dark grey area. As you stated in your journal, though, drawings and writings are perfectly legal. You mention fictional murder, fictional rape, and actual child porn as if they are on the same level. You are comparing apples and oranges to make your point and I do not appreciate it.

I do not care about personal sensetivity and societal norms as they relate to the allow/ban decision. Either we are trying to come to a rational decision or not, and the will or willies of the majority without solid supporting argument amounts to nothing more than brute force.

I'm not asking anyone to *care*. All I'm asking is that they be rational about what they support. If you don't care about the community, that makes you selfish, and frankly, that's where I lose a lot of respect for you and your opinions. The real disappointment however, is when people use bad logic to further their selfish goals.

You are not any more important than any other non-artist on this site, and you sure as hell aren't more important than the hundreds of respectable artists you're telling to fuck off and get out. This isn't your community to run, and your opinion isn't the most important just because you shout it the loudest.

You want to know what disgusts me more than the cub porn on this site? It's people like you who flame anyone with a differing opinion from your own, and turb everything you come across into some long, drawn-out drama-fest for which you need to be the center of attention.

Get over yourself.

I haven't been yelling. I haven't been shouting. I haven't even been typing in all caps except in place of bold and italic. The only people I have told to fuck off and get out are the ones who either said "I'm leaving if the other side winds" and those who cleared out their galleries following the drama. What I have been trying to do is have a rational and generally calm discussion of the issue that was on the table and the attitudes surrounding it. The very comment this reply replied to was a snipe at your logic - not at you.

I have not, to my knowledge, proclaimed my inherent superiority to anyone on this site or similarly demanded respect as some manner of authority. I certainly haven't claimed the site as mine - several times I have stated very clearly that if the owner of the site enforced a ban simply because they felt like it, I would be okay with the decision.

As for the cause of this drama, I'm not the one calling the other side a group of disgusting pedophiles. So far as I remember, I have accused the Ban voters of nothing more than highly selective ethics and inconsistent logic. I haven't been vying for attention, I've been trying to discuss an issue where appropriate and clear my name where neccessary (ex: here).

Kindly get your projections in line before you flame.

I don't believe this.

What more do you people fucking want?

You already got your wish of porn in FA because Sheezy broke your fucking promises, but now this?

Make up your fucking minds.

Slope will appear, believe it or not
what do you think then of SONIC fan art porn and similar?
what about klonoa?
characters from digimon?
catgirls or catboys ( used widely in the icons of many people.. )

and so on....

well considering sonic and digimon are copyrighted characters I forsee porn or otherwise fanart of those being stopped at some point as well.

But then FA is not needed, there's VCL for original furry art.

Did you know that a lot of people are on FA _because_ it allows fanart (unlike VCL) and adult work (unlike Sheezyart) ?

The idea behind the ToS revision is to draw the line. If these things fall one one side of the line and qualify as under-age and sexually-suggestive/mature, then they're removed, and if not, they stay. As for Sonic, Digimon, etc... that's an issue of trademark, not of policy. FA is liberal in their policy about trademark enforcement, and I don't forsee that changing unless a trademark owner decides tomake a deal of it, at which point FA would have no choice but to comply.

they're still underage retard!!

characters such as tails, are "oficially" less than 15 in most cases ( if not them all )

remember ,the internet is still serius business ;)

I'll repeat. Read.

"The idea behind the ToS revision is to draw the line. ***If these things fall one one side of the line and qualify as under-age and sexually-suggestive/mature, then they're removed, and if not, they stay***. As for Sonic, Digimon, etc... that's an issue of trademark, not of policy. FA is liberal in their policy about trademark enforcement, and I don't forsee that changing unless a trademark owner decides tomake a deal of it, at which point FA would have no choice but to comply."

If they are underage, and they depict sexually suggestive or explicit acts, then they would be banned. If either one of those criteria are not met, they stay. Sonic and Tails fanart is fine, provided that it's not pornographic. One policy, one ruling, many applications. No slippery slope.

wrong again.. you're not getting it?
why it fall on "trademark" if they're )clearly stated in their original creator's website) that they're less than 13 years old?

The decision as to whether any fanart including clean art of ANY trademarked characters is permitted AT ALL is a matter of trademark. I believe that was clear enough in my initial post.

Rulings to allow fanart on FA are completely independant of rulings to allow adult-oriented under-age art. They have no relation, and banning one is not going to lead to banning the other. That was my point. You're the one that's not getting it.

so accorfing to you, making pedo, cub art or anything related is OK is the character is "COPYRIGHTED" by a corporation ??
lol, nice thinking sir!.. you made me LOL..

That sound you just heard was the point of this debate doing mach-4 over the top of your head.

I don't know how much more painfully clear I can make it.
By disallowing pedo and cub porn, the original ToS implied that it is NOT okay, ever.

You had used some slippery-slope argument to say that FA disallowing pedo and cub porn would lead to banning fanart. First and foremost, this is not true because FA had already been disallowing pedo and cub porn in the ToS, and fanart was still permitted (provided it didn't break the pedo rule). The point was and is that any rule regarding fanart of corporate trademarked characters (characters are not subject to copyright) is a matter of trademark enforcement, and is in no way related to the ruling on cub art.

and yet you dont get it in your tighthead that im not talking just about "copyrighted" characters.
re-read what I said SIRE..
because you look completely brainwashed and reading something I didnt type..
I REPEAT.. CHARACTERS SUCH AS TAILS ARE UNDERAGED, YET YOU ARE HIDING (IE CONDONING AND ACCEPTING PORN )THEM AND CLAIMING THEY'RE OK TO UPLOAD BECAUSE THEY'RE "FAN ART" ?

SO BASICALLY ANYONE WHO DRAWS PEDO ART OF TAILS I OK BECAUSE ACCORDING TO YOU, ITS " COPYRIGHTED STUFF" and
then according to you, fits in "FAN ART"
thats the SLOPE I'm talking about

I just noticed that you're indeed a usual internet-tard who hides behind the double standard rule of convenience.

I'm done here, because you are a fucking idiot, and are clearly incapable of comprehending my words or your own.

Typing in caps does not make you look smart.

Go find someone to help you re-enlist in the fourth grade or something, but get your stupidity the fuck out of my journal.

lol, yeah, just because you dont open your mind and eat your own mistakes? rofl..
btw, in other hand.. werent you the egolatric retard who wanted so much leave this site because "OHH NOES, IT SUPPORTS PEDO!!"
yet you're clinging to it very tightly...
again.. CONVENIENCE..
cogratulations!! you just confirmed the total hypocrite you are! :D
ps, if you could use your brain a little, ( just like you claim you're "too smart" to talk with me ) theres a "block" option in your control panel if you want to play the coward, and block me ;)

now, do something useful and leave because you know I just owned you hardcore.

LOL, I'm sorry my friend, but if anyone just got owned, it's you.

Firstly, after reading this debate it is crystal clear to me that CaptainSaicin never, in any way implied that under-age fan art porn was ok. He was pointing out that under-age characters in sexually explicit situations were not ok, no matter who they belonged to. And that on the other hand, CLEAN fan art would not be affected by that, thus no slippery-slope.

Secondly, I've read all his journals and the entirety of the comments on this one, as well as his opinions on several other journals. He never once said he was leaving or planning to leave. If you can't link me to a post where he did, I'll assume you're lying about that.

Thirdly, the block option does not work. I've tested it, and it is made of FAIL. Even if he did block you, it wouldn't stop you from spreading your stupidity on his journal.

Finally, 'egolatric' is not a word, retard.

In summary: you fail at basic rules of the English language, you use very poor logic and continue to defend it after it has been solidly refuted several times, you make up lies about his position on the matter and use them to attack his character and call him a hypocrite (Straw-man AND Ad-hominem, both of which he talked about in his journal!).

He just completely owned you, and yet you're so stupid you actually think you're winning. I find that hilarious. :D

CaptainSaicin is right. This whole debate just flew over the top of your head like a Black Ops strike force, and you're clueless, grasping at nothing but air.

So yea, give it up and go cry to mom already... or just keep replying so I can laugh at you some more.

as for the block feacture: it does work: maybe you dont know how to use it, or perhaps they desactivated it because of the current slowdowns (but trust me, they worked preety fine around 2 weeks ago )


and as quoted: "The idea behind the ToS revision is to draw the line. ***If these things fall one one side of the line and qualify as under-age and sexually-suggestive/mature, then they're removed, and if not, they stay***. As for Sonic, Digimon, etc... that's an issue of trademark, not of policy."

note.. " as for sonic, digimon, etc.. thats an issue of trademark"

interestingly you say that I Lie,
sadly for you , the world is not only one country. so dont focus on my english :>

second: on your first issue, if he was against it, he could easily have clearly said "Underaged characters porn even of they're copyrighted should be banned", I never seen him saying that in the older posts, except once that I now notice ( and dont appear in the screenshots, so I suspect he edited them), do you?


second: he might have edited the main page, you can edit it. didnt you know?.
I think I have an screenshot of the original where he clearly makes his point, then makes a list of people leaving, and THEN he said he will leave with the artists if they're quite a bit ( and they where quite a bit ) as far I know.

third, as for egolatric, I accept that mistake, since my main idiom is spanish, the "egolatra" is the correct word, wich cant be translated correctly with babelfish, searching a bit trought dictionaries, made me find the word wich is "egotism" person who thinks only of himself.

fourth, Refuted where?
Im sorry Im not going around to all your friend's journals triying to search for your "refuted" thing.

fifth: Im glad Im entertaining you, and sadly for you, I dont cry that easily.

sixth: Its still serious business I HEARD!!!

HAHAHAHAHA

Try it, moron. Try blocking me. It doesn't work - It never has. I don't need to trust your lying tongue - I know for a fact that they didn't. So give it a try. See if you can stop me from posting on your page and in your journals.

SONIC AND DIGIMON IS A MATTER OF TRADEMARK.

IF you understood the English language, it would be clear to you as it is to everyone else that he is seperating the two policies in that statement. CLEAN fan art falls only under trademark. So does porn fan art with characters that are not under-age. PORN FAN ART OF UNDER-AGE CHARACTERS IS COVERED BY THE PEDO RULE THOUGH, AND AS SUCH IS NOT OK.

He shouldn't NEED to specify that copyrighted characters are included in the under-age porn ban, SINCE IT'S AN OVERLAPPING POLICY, AND THEREFORE BY NATURE TRUE.

And you can't edit comments, dumbass, so accusing him of doing so doesn't fly.

Sure, he can edit the journal entry, but after that bullshit you just spewed about him editing the comments, I'm not inclined to believe you about that.

Oho, so now we're claiming we have solid evidence, but are just too special to share it? If you have a screenshot, post it, you dumb fuck. The fact that you won't only PROVES that you don't have it, and are making shit up that you can't substantiate.

POST A FUCKING SCREENSHOT ALREADY IF YOU HAVE ONE. You don't.

He's properly refuted it with every reply so far to your moronic posts. You're just too dumb or ignorant to see it.

You'd have to be smart enough to realize how badly you've just been owned to cry about it, so that's no disappointment.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this with you at this point... you're clearly too ignorant/inept/stupid to understand it anyway. And if you don't understand English, you should stop arguing about it, comprende? Saying you're not a native English speaker isn't an excuse for being stupid. It's just an excuse to not say anything and therefore avert making a fool of yourself. Too bad you couldn't use your right to remain silent.

see soundhound's reply: LOL NAMECALLING!!!


and you feel better with tossing insults from right to left?
:D

ps, pmed you my directory of screenshots on drama stuff.

I think it's okay to draw nudes of Denis The Menace as a wolf boi because he's, like, 50 years old.

I think it's okay to draw nudes of Denis The Menace as a wolf boi because he's, like, 50 years old.

Klonoa has never had a clearly stated age. As for Digimon, none of the 'mon themselves are 'underage' as they are data and came into being with the internet itself. They have various stages of transformation but it's hard to label a Rookie or even a In-Training Digimon as underage. Chibi does not = underage. The kids are a whole other pot of fish however, till the end of season 2 for the first two batches.

Catgirls and Catboys also are hard to define at a set age. I'm pretty sure Dragoneer said it will be handled on a case to case level, but that Pokemon/Digimon are already largely off the hook. (Can't say the same for the Pokemon babies though)

Im afraid you're wrong,I've seen in quite a few websites he's stated to be around 13..
similar to tails mentioned as 12
in a few "biographys"

and as digimon, I mean the KIDS..
theres quite some art that involves the kids doing sexual acts with their digimon.


and I know chibbi is not underage, but some styles that are a mix of chibbi & normal, such as Inuki are preety in the grey line(or borderline), and of course, these kind of artists always defends their very-young looking characters with the classic "I SWEAR they're ALL OVER 18!!"

the problem is, if they ban it, they MUST develop the rules perfectly to cover all sides, to prevent people to go extreme-borderline and prevent witch-hunting like Y!G as gone towards furry, anything with fur is been reported, even borderline catboys and catgirls.

and trust me.. Y!G is almost now total crap, they produce and submit like.. at most.. 20 pictures per day ( compared to the huge ammount before the ban , and the witchhunting wich is scaring more ppl ) and from these 20, only 2-3 are worth seeing ( the rest are just crap art from random horny otaku girls )

I'm talking about OFFICAL age, not what some websites list him. Namco of Japan has -never- ever given him a offical age.

And if you think Chibi's going down too, I'd say that's some whole other pot of fish.

what about tails sir?

in other hand, who will play god and tell whats a correct chibbi, or pedo?
who says whats is chibbi and whats not?
what if someone hides on the classic "BUT ITS MY STYLE!!!" thing?

you need to broad your opinions, you're just thinking inside a very tiny box..

tl;dr

For teh lulz huh?

You talk like this, and it sickens me. I've seen your stories, filled with rape. Rape is morally wrong and the fact that you apparently enjoy raping people is disgusting.

(This post is sarcastic, used to prove a point that morality is relative and with such issues, it's always wiser to shoot for the greatest possible freedom as minimum personal damage. And as cub porn DOES no damage..)

Yes, morality is entirely subjective. As a writer, I take liberties with my stories within the bounds of my own moral standards, and that in of itself is subject to change as well.

As a number of people have already pointed out, the idea that cub porn is incapable of damage is flawed. Statistical evidence exists that suggests there is in fact strong correlation between collectors of pedophiliac art, real or imaginary, and real-world offenders. This is why so many of the parents of children on this site refuse to support a community that will allow 'cub' porn. As for the morality of it, morality is a construct which acts as a mechanism to prevent such damage. The fact that is deemed immoral is indicative of its capacity for potential harm.

Very well said and you know I agree 100%.

Though, you spelled my username wrong (it's 'thegentilcat') - you forgot the 'g'. ;)

Thank you. I'm glad it was well-recieved.

And yeah, Darby caught that and pointed it out too - sorry about that... typo on my part. It'll be fixed as soon as I finalize this update.

*reposts from scappo's journal*

I think it should be allowed, and if allow wins, the mods should put a filter up for those who don't like it, though i'm sure you already are. Listen folks, its ink on paper, if artists wanna draw it, let them draw it. You don't like it, put your butt somewhere else, all your doing is causing drama for the people that like it, or the people that don't really care about it. I do like it to an extent, in the real world, yes i would ban anything...stop..etc, but since its the net, and its art, i pick allow. If you don't like cub porn, then don't look at it. Yeah its hard to tell what from what, but some artists actually put on their icons if its cub porn or not, so if you see it, stay away. If you see it, close it down and move on. If it makes you stop looking at that artist's art, then its your problem, not their's and it shouldn't be that big of a deal. Next thing you know, FA goes bye bye..and what will you do then? Yeah another site or two will pop up, but soon you'll probably do the same to them...or someone else will, and it goes bye bye. So leave FA alone, we come here to enjoy art, its the safest place to post what we want, etc. So, let it go.

the filter idea is quite an excellent compromise! i don't think cp should be completely allowed or completely banned, because clearly this community is split fairly evenly either way. or, the current tos should be kept - allow young looking characters to be posted as long as the artist offers an acceptable explanation for it.

Thats if they ever get the filters working.

haha yes, quite a big if ;O(

Who gives a damn about those who are leaving? Let them be whiny. Heck, I'm glad some of them are leaving. This place will be a lot better without them.

I think you will be surprised by the influence they have on the community when they finally leave. Your lack of appreciation is noted, but frankly you undervalue the community and take far too much of it for granted.

On an art site, you should judge people by their contributions, not their principles.

Sorry I just disagree with your opinion that some members are far more important than what should rightfully be allowed onto this site.

I love this community. I really do. That is why I will be more than happy when these people leave. FA doesn't need intolerant hypocrites.

hypocrite how, exactly?

Well, they claim that they don't want to be associated with such illegal and immoral acts. Yet, they don't seem to have a problem with violence, rape, or murder. And, last I checked, those are just as illegal and immoral.

Except staged violence/rape/murder in art or photograhy are not illegal, but pedophilia in it is.

I'm not talking about fictional stuff you moron. I'm talking about REAL rape and REAL murder. They are all illegal and immoral. Or do you not understand the difference between fiction and reality? So far the only ones who can't seem to grasp this concept are the ones bitching about the cub porn.

The one who is a moron is you. I made it very clear in multiple posts.

NOBODY HERE IS PERFORMING REAL RAPE OR REAL MURDER. Your argument that they are illegal/immoral is completely pointless, since fictional rape/murder is NOT illegal/immoral.

Fictional pedophile porn IS illegal, and regarded by most as immoral.

So far you've established that you are an asshole AND a moron. I'm not impressed yet. Would you care to keep arguing and reach for another title?

You're the biggest hypocritical moron I've seen here thus far. You OPENLY admit that fictional rape and murder is a-o-k because, after all, it's not real. Then why the hell can you not grasp the fact that the exact same rule applies to artwork depicting sex with minors? It's FICTIONAL, thus it hurts NO ONE.

And there are NO laws in my country banning cub porn. So the whole law thing is invalid.

You know what, fuck this. Your head is too far up your ass to understand common fucking sense.

Hey, if it's legal in your country, then that's fine. Go out on the streets and masturbate to all the kiddie porn you want. I'm not going to stop you.

IT IS ILLEGAL IN AMERICA.
Incidentally, America is where the FA servers are hosted.
That means that FA is liable, and prosecution of FA and any US-resident members may occur under any applicable US law.

Doesn't affect you? that's great... it may make you a selfish son of a bitch, but you can't be arrested, so that's fine. You may lose FA when the owners get prosecuted and the site is taken down, but hey, you're in a free country - you can go out and wank to all the kiddie porn you want without FA, so what does it matter to you?

Get the fuck out. You disgust me.

Put me down for leaveing!

Thanks for your input. I've added you to the list.

Thanks for the input - I've put you down.

I hope it doesn't come down to that, but it doesn't look good... at all.

1) The possibility that something might become illegal is a poor reason to ban it, especially in a nation that doesn't hold past actions accountable for future laws. The Supreme Court has upheld the right of artists to draw whatever they want so long as no actual people are harmed, and barring a constitutional amendment or further Supreme Court rulings, any laws on the book contrary to those rulings are at least partially invalid. As for litigation, civil suits can be leveled for basicaly any reason at all - under the currently half-broken legal system, any organization with enough money could shut FA down on the thinnest of pretenses. We're much more likely to be busted by Sega for sexy Sonic fanart than by the DOJ for general anthropomorphic erotica of any sort.

2) If I draw something that other people don't like, it does not affect their moral standing. To my knowledge, only very angry, fundamentalist strains of Islam are so paranoid as to say that action actually harms others. Even in uploading that art, it steps on nobody's toes but the site owner's and those who come upon it accidentally. To me, this means we need a better content sorting system, and until then people ALREADY need to watch out for crap that offends them! I watch a fraction of the artists I browse through, and I STILL get scat and inflation crap in my inbox. It's the internet; bad things happen here.

3) ALLOWING SOMETHING IS NOT SUPPORTING IT. To an even greater extent, allowing fantasy DRAWINGS of a topic does not equate to support of similar actions and mindsets in real life! Don't pull that one out unless you want to say that FurAffinity and its primary admin, Dragoneer, condone, support, and encourage murder, rape, incest, torture, kidnapping, and shitting on people in real life. See 1 below if you're angry right here.

4) I watch and love some of the people on the leaving list, but I say this: fuck them. If they aren't mature enough to ignore this one kind of art, so be it. How many people will stay in spite of cub being allowed? How many will still be here after this dramafest blows over? What fraction of artistic talent does this cabal represent?
As an aside, I find it interesting that you do not call those on your list "exhibitioners." Unless they are dumb, and I doubt they are, they are doing this for show and their threats of leaving, however real, are little more than attempts to gain leverage toward a ban. Whatever you think of the anti-ban camp's threats to leave, so do they think of the pro-ban camp's.

5) CubCentral sucks. I check it every now and then, but it's a hole, and it has very, very little worth seeing since Asthexiancal left. It has no sense of community, no ease-of-use, no openess besides a limited selection of publically available pictures. FA is greater than it in every regard (it even has Asthexiancal!). People went to DA because it had a community and was easy to use. People went to Sheezy because DA fucked them. People went to FA because Sheezy fucked them. I'm not going to leave FA if FA fucks me on this, but that's kind of the point - FA is the best there is right now, cub or no cub. Don't shove me and mine off.
As for the XYZ thing, I dare you to name one place where that's happened. DA is still general art, Flickr is still pictures, CubCentral is still cubs, Y!Gallery is still yaoi, Sheezy is still crap. FurAffinity will always be fur. After the initial flood of CubCentral people coming over and uploading their back portfolios, the amount of cub art and artists coming is going to be the same as with any other niche fetish. How often do you see scat on the front page?

As for your treatment of fallacies:

1) I have made a similar claim (click on my name and see Journals), but with one very important difference: I don't say 'need to' or 'will.' I say 'should.' If the reason FA bans Cub art is because the real-world equivilent of the act the drawing represents is illegal and immoral, then the admins SHOULD follow through with all other illegal/immoral acts. You are fully capable of compartmentalizing your thoughts to exclude scat, murder, torture, rape, etc. because a character's apparent or stated age is somehow much more important than their consent, well-being, or survival. However... it is important to realize that you are doing so. If you honestly believe that the age of consent is more important in fantasy porn drawings than life itself (in fantasy porn drawings), fine. I think your morals are askew, but fine. Otherwise, you need to get your throughts in line and make sure you have some reaons better than "ewwwww!" for banning cub porn.

2) Many straw men have been raised and razed over this issue, and pointing it out is a service to anyone who's unfamiliar with formal logic and debate. I will note, however, that I have not seen any real reasons for banning cub that don't boil down to "I think it's worse than anything else in the fandom" and "I think it's immoral/unethical." The former is either the same as or close to "I don't like it," and the latter is extremely selective (see 1 directly above).

3) Truth. People can be stupid. Attack the stupidity, not the person.

4) Truth. Poll should have had at least 4 options: hate it/ban, like it/allow, apathetic/ban, apathetic/allow.

5) What greater good? All I see is you and the people on your lists claiming we're pedophiles. Sorry, off-topic. FurAffinity is exclusive in name, since it doesn't openly invite or to my knowledge contain any human-only artists. If there's a good reason to keep something out ("the founder didn't like hyoomans" is a good enough reason for me, FYI), then by all means keep it out.

Regarding your final comments, I find it hi-larious that YOU have the list of worthwhile and oh-so-talented artists (far more to lose, by your word) cutting themselves loose if the ban isn't enforced, but WE'RE the ones tearing the site apart. What monsters we untalented 49.9% must be.

I noticed that there is a small number leaving if the ban is to go into effect.

I'm saying there are over 30,000 accounts, in the entire archive. If this is going to be about "the good artists leaving" or "popular artists leaving" this is just as grade school as idiots that follow celebrities' morals simply because they're celebrities. I'll leave cuz Samuel Jackson said so!

I'm tired of people trading atrocities here to gain high moral ground, it's making me disgusted with a lot of people. "Well your fictional fetish is worse than my ficitonal fetish"

So now the diaper shitting baby furs gather together with the rape fetishists to out those that draw fictional characters because their perception is that they're automatically a pedophile?

What is funny is that I had my own reasons for the ban, but I am so sick of how people are trying to use skewed morals as the main issue. Everyone is borrowing someone elses' talking points do they realize it's just fucking POLITICS? I thought people HATED politics. This is the same crap.

More people on this archive probably voted here than they will in their local elections, elections where you can vote people in that can make laws against REAL sex offenders.

If I quit the site there won't be an announcement of "I'm leaving because of blah blah blah" I'll just quietly leave because I just want to get back into my piece of reality and deemed this place too stupid beyond belief ;)

I'm actually insulted by this - I'm not a real artist because I don't have an open mind when it comes to kiddie porn?

No, dear - it means I have a conscious and think that little kids being depicted in sexual situations (even fictionally) is grossly immoral and disgusting.

If FA were to allow the no cub-porn to be lifted, I would most definitely leave the day it was made official.

About filters - as it stands now - there are none to block out that kind of stuff. And even if there were, I would (personally speaking) not be able to get past the fact that though I can't see them, they're still floating about on the site. I would simply rather leave than associate myself with a site that will allow such dispicable images to be displayed.

And, just so you're aware, filters are not always the answer. Some artists tend to mislabel their images, thus they can get past the filter from time to time. What happens in those cases when a person is forced to see an image they had filtered out because of a mislabeling?

Saw the drama, read it down.....Just was waiting for someone to say exactly that *applauds*

This is a fight about freedom of art, if you dont like it just use the filters and dont look at it...As easy as that.

I totally agree with thegentilcat. Just because you do not support one thing doesn’t mean you are not real artist, nor do you not have an open mind. An open mind can only expand so much. Can you honestly tell me there isn’t a single thing that you are disgusted by? Besides aren’t you all acting like a ‘cry baby’ about it too. There are sites specifically for that sort of art. A whole community shouldn’t have to go down the drain just because a few think having a rule is bad.

I hope you BURN! HARD!!!

I came upon this journal through Darby's. I for one would be leaving if the site allows cub porn, which is a shame because I have only been posting for a couple of weeks and I enjoy the site. However, the issue has come to disgust and disturb me and I have no problem taking my work elsewhere if it is allowed. It is nice to have a site where almost anything goes but there has to be a line drawn at some points. A whole community shouldn’t be in danger just because a handful of people want complete freedom. Without some rules there is chaos.

How are you endangered because of my art or anyone else's? Why should our rules be any more restrictive than the law requires and the theme in the name of the site suggests? Exactly how much chaos are you expecting over the official recognition of a rule as it is already enforced?

*nuzzles and licks* Well said love

i'll prolly leave if it's allowed

Fucking signed. And if all these artist leave, I might leave as well.

i'll probably leave too -_-;

This journal recieves my stamp of approval. And for the record, I've already removed my art work from the site.

I feel guilty, however, assuming a fallacy that FA does in fact allow "Cub" porn in it's TOS. I should have done my own research. But, I have seen images of this filth floating around FA, so I logically put one and one together. Either it was allowed or it wasn't being enforced. Either way, I'm sick of all the drama and instability in this community anyway. I don't really consider myself a furry anyway but I really do like the art (not so much the porn as much of it is a bit too out there for my tastes, but anyway). Which is why I still have my account and am still watching others on this site. If they ban it, I'll gladly return. I'll also consider returning if they enact a filter system that actually works!

I know some people may argue that leaving solves nothing. That we should stay and fight it. But what's there to fight? If they allow it, and many others leave (which they most likely will), it will be in the majority and of course, the majority is always right. You'd be banned yourself for harrassment if you posted something in their gallery like "This offends me. Please remove it."

Agreed, and sorry to see you go.

Running away from a problem isn't a viable solution, but then what is staying going to solve?

Good luck and hope you find something better.

I've already left. Even if they decide to ban, I'm not comin' back. No amount of debating will change my mind.That's all I have to say about that.:D

I've already left. Even if they decide to ban, I'm not comin' back. No amount of debating will change my mind.That's all I have to say about that.:D

Crap. My internet triple posted my message.Is there any way to delete messages that were sent too many times?

Exactly the points I was looking for and unable to write out myself as well. I'll be gone if it goes ahead on allowing this.

I've also already left. The fact that this was even up for discussion, along with all the other drama that's been here since the start was the straw that broke the camel's back. Regardless of the decision to ban or not, I will not be uploading here anymore.

Ya hit the nail on the head with exactly what had been going through my own mind on this issue. I hate to see many of the artists on that list leave, if they do then my own visits will be reduced because half my watch list is gone, I also would not like to have my name connected to something I find morally wrong and disturbing.

This is not like water sport, vore, or scat which many find disgusting. Pedophilia is a very real and potenally dangerous mental illness and everyone that I know who had young kids or relatives fears the spread as such being acceptible. Regardless of what might be portrayed in art children under the age of 14 do not give consent, they do not have the development in the brain to understand what is happening.

aye, it has taken its toll on the community already... it's very sad and disappointing that the decision was made the way it was, and furthermore that even now the admins seem to be oblivious as to why so many people have left or are leaving.

Let's ban rape art next. Let's ban vore art next. Let's ban for-legger art next. Let's ban bondage art next.......

Sorry but this is a no-brainer. You just can't censor stuff this isn't illegal in art form. Cub art, along with art of ALL the other genres I just mentioned, is totally legal. Therefore it must be allowed to be expressed.

So why is there no massive debate to ban these other morally reprehensible art themes?

You do realise that we MUST do the same for all these other things right? Or else you have to explain to me why we ban cub art but not rape art, etc.

you didn't read the entry at all, did you? you are using the "slippery slope" argument.

Fuck yeah! I say ban ALL OF THAT SHIT. This should be a G - PG13 kink/fetish free site. This isn't about kinks or fetishes, this is about creating great works of art that anybody and their mother could enjoy. You furries need to get better PR.

LOL XD

Well, you can count me in as one of those few who'll be tearing ass outta here.

You're smart person, and I completely respect that. Also, if you've any incentive to continue viewing my artwork (and I won't blame ya if you don't), I'll still be posting my art up on my dA site. I want you to know that I deeply appreciate your support of my work here and I'd greatly appreciate it there too. I do have a rather grand submission in the works as well. Anyways, the url is on my user page under "website", ironicaly enough.

Take it easy now.

mn, sorry, but I must say this...
Don't get me wrong, the journal post is awsome, believe me, explains well and all. But by asking the names, are you tyring to make people see "allow it and they leave, they are awsome artists the community will lose!!11oneone"?
Eh... sorry, I just think that emotional blackmail/ultimate shouldn't be considered a point of "why to ban it". actually, i find it sad and I mostly think that people should be mature enough not to create drama when leaving either it's an art-gallery, either is a forum.

meh, people "converting" as said above because some artists leave?... and many of them taking advantage because they are "well know artists". ah. I don't care about that really. What i do when I see a tiny dramatic journal "I will leave if this goes through", I simply un-watch the artist and end of it. I can't stand blackmailers, either if they are Picasso or not.

pff.
What an argument.

"Nuke the world, give evolution a second chance"

The list wasn't about giving an ultimatum. It was about substantiating point #4, which was that people are leaving. If I said that I was against allowing cub art because it's driving away a lot of the community, I'd inevitably be asked to prove it - to give names. Indeed I was asked on a few occasions elsewhere, to which I simply pointed back to this journal.

If people are going to leave, that is their choice, and I respect them in making it. It's not my place to argue against someone else's moral stanards, just as I expect others to accept mine. Of the people who are leaving or have already left, most of them aren't doing it just to make a point - they are doing it because for professional, personal or moral reasons, they can't or won't tolerate it.

Cub art is a dangerous grey line to tread, and for some people they simply can't risk it. I think it's very sad to see them go, but I still respect them for that. Ultimately, you can't blame them for leaving, and when they make good on their promise... well, that's the end of it.

I made this journal to tell the community "Look, this is what's happening," and "this is what will happen," because I think an uninformed community is a danger to itself, and I didn't want to see it damaged. Whether people are a part of the solution or a part of the problem depends on whether they are able to listen and use their own reason and judgment well.

I'm not saying the people who are leaving are right... running away from a problem does nothing to solve it. But I do understand that many of them don't think it will accomplish anything to stay.

You win some, you lose some, and you let it go... what's done is done, and the important thing is that you stick to your guns in the end and move on.

to those "great artists" that are leaving becuase it may not be allowed. Too bad! You are not really that great after all, are you.

Because a site will not be able to allow Child pornography you are leaving.

So in other words you are a pedophile?

because if your art is anything it is mass appeal. Is child pornography all you are really about and is that the only reason you are at FA?

This is a posibility to those reading this thinking of leaving if the ban goes through. could you not simply state your opinion, then post you stuff that would be banned here, on cub central, or is it too incovienient?

You know if some people are prima dona's i say okay fine you say that now, just wait when some editor that you have to do work for, othewise you are going to starve this week, is standing with his shoes all over your best artwork and then pulls out a piece of shit and says, "can you do something with this?" and he is serious, if you don't suck up to him he will go to the next artist and you don't eat!

or will you instead like now put your foot down and stand for total freedom or else!

What i just stated is the real world beyond art school, Showkaiser...You have good form and good color but i've never seen you try anything outside of your realm!

the rest of you are being inconsiderate and closed minded if this pedophillia is all you really are.

Now i do not approve of having to ban anything, but this must be banned from this site. It is not up to us. It is up to law. right now, there is no law that specifically states this is illegal, YET.

but Democrats are all about making new laws. And many people are going to vote the democrats back into control, eventually. then FA and any site on the internet that allows cub porn and everyone that posts even a flower picture will be put on the criminal sexual predetor pedophile list, because of association. Even if they left, before the ban was or was not implimented. So even the people that have already left are still subject to proving themselves innocent after being accused only.

Rmemeber the media exists to promote democrat liberal thinking and control of the government through the rule of law, as long as democrats are in control, of course.
So what do you think would sell more newspapers for the new york times if there became a law outlawing any cub porn. Even though those of us that do not ascribe to this form of art in any way shape or form would be accused and considerdered guilty before any trial ever happened. Sorry but i am going by other pedophile cases where it turned out the people actually were falsely accused. still they are on the sexual predator list even though they were acquitted! this is a fact, it happened at a day care center in detroit in the early nineties. It all turned out to be a prefabricated hoax. But the damage still has not been undone. all eight of the acquitted defendents still have to register with the police where ever they move to!
To Showkaiser and the rest that approve of cub porn when this becomes a law, making it illegal even retroactive twenty years ago from its inception date, i will come after you for ruining MY ENTIRE LIFE!

This is a list of people who are leaving if they don't ban it. We don't want pedo art =/

I find it hi-goddamn-larious that people are STILL bashing the Dems specifically for crappy laws about personal freedoms. Texas had laws against gays fucking. Alabama STILL has laws against sex toys. The neocons in power are slowly ripping apart the constitution.

Please, stop targeting the inneffectual dipsticks who haven't changed anything since 2000 and just use the word "fascists."

you know i've heard you before, you told me all this a long time ago, but STILL i'm waiting for the Nixon era prison camps to start up from the fascist Nixon!

You really are a piece of work so how long have been pissed off about one or two state's laws concerning Gays? I don't live in the state i want to, because of assholes that think their way in the only way. That is i have to conform to rules imposed upon me by the Gay and Lesbian community of San Fransisco, So come off with all your high and mighty bull about how i'm being inconsiderate.
To you that use no facts at all i can bring a ton of stuff to look up, then you can test my numbers. But you on the other hand, all you have is baseless hear-say, oh my brother's cousin's friend's sister said it was true and i just have to believe her, cause she's a lesbian.
Where are your facts? Ms. Pelosi?, what is your party platform Mr. Reid, never mind the money you've been making, (over one million dollars for a property he'd sold in 2000, using his weight in washington to get the envioronmental protections taken off an area with several endangered species on it. Yep ONE of YOUR wonderful Dewmocrats stealing money to make himself rich, and using his position in government to change existing laws to PROTECT wildlife. There is FACT how are you going to explain it? He did all this through subterfuge in commitees. Since true his is not the controlling party in congress, however that has never stopped lawmakers.)
I have other facts that will show you that the Democrats are really a bad influence, i'll be happy to show them to you, off this post./ drop me a note on FA and i'll give you a tome on what the Democrats and the liberal Democrat papers have been 'reporting' what you need to know. Myself i really always fight for the underdog. For sixty years, longer than i've been alive the democrats hoodwinked the american voter into thinking they were the only party to vote for. In a way that IS fascism, control of information creation of the establishment.

Many of the people that were activist in the sixties and seventies gave up asll the values they said they held dear and all of them became yuppies and turned their backs on what they used to believe in, what they wanted to change. Instead they became thier parents. I refused to give up my values the oither reason i stopped aging internally at 19, exterior i'm over twice that old. but inside i'm still 19. Everyone i knew gave up and capitulated, this hippie never did, i just found out who the Democrats really are and how government really works. If president Bush is ever brought up on impeachment for the lives of solidiers in a war we intend to win, i want ex president, YOUR darling sax player, to be brought up on murder charges for mogadishu, somalia, indonesia, haiti, and kosovo, all those wars we lost because after he pulled a jimmi carter, he pulled the troops out and retreated, losing the war to the jihadists. No wonder Admangijaad of Iran wants us to vote in Democrats, he knows they won't fight him!

I'm not telling you not to attack Democrats who deserve it. I'm saying you should paint with a wider brush and attack ALL who deserve it. Politicians fuck up on all sides, but the general lack of an uproar over the far-reaching, unconstitutional laws and signing statements Bush and his ilk have pushed through Congress are what have been at the front of my list of things to get angry about.

Whether or not we should be itching for a fight in Iran when our war in Iraq isn't making much progress on billions of dollars and dozens of lives daily is another discussion entirely.

I'm a libertarian. I voted for Kerry just to get Bush the fuck out, and he lost. Don't tie me with any fuckups in the Democratic party based on that or less. I'm not going to defend or assault a man who's been out of office for five years when the man in office has a growing track record of grand deceptions, Orwell-grade ducktalk ("free speech zone"), and generally boneheaded decisions.

That said, Nixon-era prison camps? Fucking what?

Fox news freepie! Bush and Co can do no wrong in your eyes right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uo-9bFJcRM

Remember: furry artwork helps the terrorist win! Why do you hate America?

ROFL

*whooooosh*

Right over your head it went! :D

As soon as cub porn comes, I am going.

Its already here :/

Right, well I'm gone then. I'm better off on DA anyway.

1) Gather skilled, well-known artists and have a mass exodus from FurAffinity, ultimately letting others percieve you more as drama whores than upstanding human beings.

2) ?

3) PROFIT!

PS. If the ending result DOESN'T go your way, lesser known artists get more exposure and fans. Win/win from my angle.

Hey, I can sling popular lines from TV too!

Ahem..."Here's a quarter, call someone who cares."

1) Gather skilled, well-known artists and have a mass exodus from FurAffinity, ultimately letting others percieve you more as drama whores than upstanding human beings.

2) ?

3) PROFIT!

PS. If the ending result DOESN'T go your way, lesser known artists get more exposure and fans. Win/win from my angle.

you forgot:

1.5) threaten talented artists who won't bow to your will and join your drama parade with social stigmatism and worse.

Don't try and tell me it isn't happening, or it isn't disgusting.

Yeah, I've seen it on Loup Garou's journal and I think Xian Jaguar mentioned it. I think much less of those artists now than I did when they pulled their original drama whoredom. I don't see myself ever becoming their fan again. I feel that by doing this they may have irreversibly damaged themselves.

PS. Woot for having the same first name :D

People love saying that it is 'just ink on paper'. Libel is also merely 'ink on paper', but the content is such that it is offensive and damaging. While no 'real child' is being harmed in the image on paper, I do firmly believe it crosses a line of good taste and is damaging to the reputation and well-being of the community. People have spent the last several days arguing over 1's and 0's routed through a computer--they don't even have the benefit of ink or paper!

While I write and do not have artwork per se, I do intend to leave if cub porn is allowed. I'm not asking other people to join me, I assume we're all adult enough to make the choice of support or not for something without being coerced into doing so. It's called 'voting with your feet'. And does anyone else appreciate the irony of all of this taking place just in front of a hotly contested US election on Tuesday? Very well written, though. Thank you.

The intent of the "ink on paper" argument is to say that nobody was harmed in the creation of the work. Libel is illegal because it harms the reputation and potentially the life and livelihood of the person being lied about. The ink on paper represents an attack. Similarly, if one prints out a JPEG of actual child porn on an inkjet printer, the result is also ink on paper - this time representing child abuse.

Everytime someone says "just ink on paper," do them a favor and pretend they said something more substantial, like "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant." (John Stuart Mill)

This is the best journal about this stuff! Way to go!
I will post it in mine too.

For more informations go to my jornal at:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/51510/

Spread the topic title, i think this is the big hitter.
Spread the entire post if you like.

1) Legality
It's not illegal now.

2) Morality
A great number of people find furry erotica fucking sick! And I'm not talking about scat vore, unbirth, rape... all of those thing that'll be allowed to stay.

And if you want to use the morality argument: My religion is about freedom, and banning a legal thing from this site steps on my sense of morality.

3) Setting an example
If you're worried about your public image, move to Sheezyart or DA, call yourself an "Anthro Artist". The term "furry" looks bad and it won't change soon.
As for Furaffinity it _is_ the DA for furry art, it's reputation must not be better than "furry" itself.

4) People leaving
Well, they're free to go isn't it? There are other art communities:
- Sheezyart
- Deviantart

Furaffinity started as the furry porn art community ; when I see people in the with galleries full of clean art I wonder why they came to Furaffinity to start with (DA or Sheezy accepts would accept their content). Especially if those people are worried about their reputation.

There are many skilled fanart artists who draw art that would be affected by then ban, like Tiny Toon Adventures, Sonic fans, artists with a "chibi" style. I don't want them to leave because THEY HAVE TO.

Having your respectable artists leave because THEY CHOOSE TO is very much preferable, in my oppinion.


You say we'll lose great artist if underage mature art is allowed and that we'll lose much less if it banned (just a bunch of "artists" that draw nothing but cub porn and freedom-loving hippies). That's your oppinion and it depends on each person tastes ; I'd rather see artists in your list go than seeing for example tiny toons fan artists go.


5) If you allow it, they will come...
Of course, hordes of pedophiles will come to FA and draw cub porn...

I visit Cubcentral regularly, _THE_ cub porn website. And I can tell you it's very low traffic. Maybe 20 pictures a week. We are very far from seeing FA flooded.


Fallacies Surrounding the Issue:

1) Slippery-Slope Logical Fallacy
The slippery-slope doesn't have to work, you just need to be an hypocrite: ban underage mature art and leave rape, vore, snuff...

I'll say the same as Ezalias: if you ban underage mature art then you SHOULD ban other art depicting illegal situations.


I won't leave FA because I'm affraid more things will get banned, and I would find that stupid too. I'll consider leaving FA if they ban underage mature art by principle.



5) "Ostracizers are Evil" Social Fallacy
There's no "furry community" anyway ; those who believe in such a thing have too high expectations. I see examples of this everyday.

I didn't even know about this discussion until now! oô

But you can trust me... cub porn in MY opinion is equal to child pornography. I tolerate a lot of disgusting pictures and fetishes here on FA, but I'm not willing to tolerate this theme since I made horrible experiences with that theme myself and it's not tolerable. It's not just fantasy, people who like that can also fantasize about sexual interactions with children.

I will leave FA if they'll allow it. That's for sure. Damn.

Yeah, it's disturbing that the subject really came up or was debated like that, really...

Thanks for the input, and I've added you to the list. I'll be sad to see you go, since you're another I would consider among the best artists here on FA, but I can respect that decision completely.

I don't have high hopes for the administrative decision today either... I can almost smell the gunpowder of them shooting themselves in the foot with it. I've lost a lot of respect for FA and many of its residents throughout all of this.

Yeah, it's really sad that this subject even is discussed. I dunno... fetishes okay, but somewhere has to be the end.

It's also sad because I actually love this place. I would really appreciate a place where adult art is accepted but without those extreme "fetishes".. ._.

I also don't think that they will ban it.

Yeah, I know how that is... It's why I'm fighting this so hard - FA is really a great place, and I don't want to lose that to a stupid choice...

I've got $20 that says they won't uphold the ban, for anyone willing to take the bet. Win-Win: I get $20, or I get to keep what I have invested in this community... For all the indications I've seen, they're going to allow it, and I am very, very disappointed with them for that.

Oh... before I forget: Please add Kaji to the list. He will also leave if it'll be allowed.

Done, thanks... between you, Kaji and Silber jumping ship, I'm not sure where I'll turn for my fix... heh.

*shakes her head and sighs* You know...you guys are full of nothing but drama..I deal with it enough let alone in my own FC here in Colorado....To those who say pedophilia is not a crime..bullshit! You say that "Wah wah wah if cub porn should be banned so should macro/micro, vore, rape, bondage, bathroom play, snuff and all the other kinks cause of the XYZ formula". You know something...did you notice that all of these kinks are played out in real life say for Macro/micro? Do you guys even take time to notice what is happening in the real world? Several months ago here in CO a man and a woman were sent to jail for raping a 4week old child. Do you want to know what it's like to be raped at 11? Do you know what it's like to have someone you know being sent to jail for having sex with a minor who GAVE consent? NO. NONE of you fucking do. I made a decision to leave because of the drama. I deal with it enough in real life I sure as hell don't want to put up with it on the internet. So what if I'm not a popular artist. I had my boundaries set and by some of you trying to fight against a point that even if you claim is not real it still puts bullets in some peoples sides. You claim those who are leaving are immature...I think you are immature for pushing these people away. They have their reasons be it good or bad. And you say the fandom has a bad name as is..you're only making it worse.

P.S. if you flame me reassure I'll unleash on you.

Sadly, been both the victim of sexual abuse (Grandfather, ages 4-6) and child porn (He was caughtthanks to videotaping himself raping me & my siblings). Sadly, I'm tired of being told that being a parent/parent-to-be or a victim of such crimes is no excuse, and we should suck it up & deal.

Dragoneer said in the Affinity Discussion of the FA forums that his decision will be announced later on today, and Yak said that FA will down later on today as well. Something about fixing the filters.

One way, or another, I'm staying no matter what, because basically, I really don't give two shits about this.

That sounds bad, but I expected as much from the time he said the official announcement wouldn't be made until today... it gives them time to start putting filters in place before making the call.

http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/ww.....inion/gsf.html

Five Geek Social Fallacies

Within the constellation of allied hobbies and subcultures collectively known as geekdom, one finds many social groups bent under a crushing burden of dysfunction, social drama, and general interpersonal wack-ness. It is my opinion that many of these never-ending crises are sparked off by an assortment of pernicious social fallacies -- ideas about human interaction which spur their holders to do terrible and stupid things to themselves and to each other.

Social fallacies are particularly insidious because they tend to be exaggerated versions of notions that are themselves entirely reasonable and unobjectionable. It's difficult to debunk the pathological fallacy without seeming to argue against its reasonable form; therefore, once it establishes itself, a social fallacy is extremely difficult to dislodge. It's my hope that drawing attention to some of them may be a step in the right direction.

I want to note that I'm not trying to say that every geek subscribes to every one of the fallacies I outline here; every individual subscribes to a different set of ideas, and adheres to any given idea with a different amount of zeal.

In any event, here are five geek social fallacies I've identified. There are likely more.

Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil

GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

In its non-pathological form, GSF1 is benign, and even commendable: it is long past time we all grew up and stopped with the junior high popularity games. However, in its pathological form, GSF1 prevents its carrier from participating in -- or tolerating -- the exclusion of anyone from anything, be it a party, a comic book store, or a web forum, and no matter how obnoxious, offensive, or aromatic the prospective excludee may be.

As a result, nearly every geek social group of significant size has at least one member that 80% of the members hate, and the remaining 20% merely tolerate. If GSF1 exists in sufficient concentration -- and it usually does -- it is impossible to expel a person who actively detracts from every social event. GSF1 protocol permits you not to invite someone you don't like to a given event, but if someone spills the beans and our hypothetical Cat Piss Man invites himself, there is no recourse. You must put up with him, or you will be an Evil Ostracizer and might as well go out for the football team.

This phenomenon has a number of unpleasant consequences. For one thing, it actively hinders the wider acceptance of geek-related activities: I don't know that RPGs and comics would be more popular if there were fewer trolls who smell of cheese hassling the new blood, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. For another, when nothing smacking of social selectiveness can be discussed in public, people inevitably begin to organize activities in secret. These conspiracies often lead to more problems down the line, and the end result is as juvenile as anything a seventh-grader ever dreamed of.

Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am

The origins of GSF2 are closely allied to the origins of GSF1. After being victimized by social exclusion, many geeks experience their "tribe" as a non-judgmental haven where they can take refuge from the cruel world outside.

This seems straightforward and reasonable. It's important for people to have a space where they feel safe and accepted. Ideally, everyone's social group would be a safe haven. When people who rely too heavily upon that refuge feel insecure in that haven, however, a commendable ideal mutates into its pathological form, GSF2.

Carriers of GSF2 believe that since a friend accepts them as they are, anyone who criticizes them is not their friend. Thus, they can't take criticism from friends -- criticism is experienced as a treacherous betrayal of the friendship, no matter how inappropriate the criticized behavior may be.

Conversely, most carriers will never criticize a friend under any circumstances; the duty to be supportive trumps any impulse to point out unacceptable behavior.

GSF2 has extensive consequences within a group. Its presence in substantial quantity within a social group vastly increases the group's conflict-averseness. People spend hours debating how to deal with conflicts, because they know (or sometimes merely fear) that the other person involved is a GSF2 carrier, and any attempt to confront them directly will only make things worse. As a result, people let grudges brew much longer than is healthy, and they spend absurd amounts of time deconstructing their interpersonal dramas in search of a back way out of a dilemma.

Ironically, GSF2 carriers often take criticism from coworkers, supervisors, and mentors quite well; those individuals aren't friends, and aren't expected to accept the carrier unconditionally.

Geek Social Fallacy #3: Friendship Before All

Valuing friendships is a fine and worthy thing. When taken to an unhealthy extreme, however, GSF3 can manifest itself.

Like GSF2, GSF3 is a "friendship test" fallacy: in this case, the carrier believes that any failure by a friend to put the interests of the friendship above all else means that they aren't really a friend at all. It should be obvious that there are a million ways that this can be a problem for the carrier's friends, but the most common one is a situation where friends' interests conflict -- if, for example, one friend asks you to keep a secret from another friend. If both friends are GSF3 carriers, you're screwed -- the first one will feel betrayed if you reveal the secret, and the other will feel betrayed if you don't. Your only hope is to keep the second friend from finding out, which is difficult if the secret in question was a party that a lot of people went to.

GSF3 can be costly for the carrier as well. They often sacrifice work, family, and romantic obligations at the altar of friendship. In the end, the carrier has a great circle of friends, but not a lot else to show for their life. This is one reason why so many geek circles include people whose sole redeeming quality is loyalty: it's hard not to honor someone who goes to such lengths to be there for a friend, however destructive they may be in other respects.

Individual carriers sometimes have exceptions to GSF3, which allow friends to place a certain protected class of people or things above friendship in a pinch: "significant others" is a common protected class, as is "work".

Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship Is Transitive

Every carrier of GSF4 has, at some point, said:

"Wouldn't it be great to get all my groups of friends into one place for one big happy party?!"

If you groaned at that last paragraph, you may be a recovering GSF4 carrier.

GSF4 is the belief that any two of your friends ought to be friends with each other, and if they're not, something is Very Wrong.

The milder form of GSF4 merely prevents the carrier from perceiving evidence to contradict it; a carrier will refuse to comprehend that two of their friends (or two groups of friends) don't much care for each other, and will continue to try to bring them together at social events. They may even maintain that a full-scale vendetta is just a misunderstanding between friends that could easily be resolved if the principals would just sit down to talk it out.

A more serious form of GSF4 becomes another "friendship test" fallacy: if you have a friend A, and a friend B, but A & B are not friends, then one of them must not really be your friend at all. It is surprisingly common for a carrier, when faced with two friends who don't get along, to simply drop one of them.

On the other side of the equation, a carrier who doesn't like a friend of a friend will often get very passive-aggressive and covertly hostile to the friend of a friend, while vigorously maintaining that we're one big happy family and everyone is friends.

GSF4 can also lead carriers to make inappropriate requests of people they barely know -- asking a friend's roommate's ex if they can crash on their couch, asking a college acquaintance from eight years ago for a letter of recommendation at their workplace, and so on. If something is appropriate to ask of a friend, it's appropriate to ask of a friend of a friend.

Arguably, Friendster was designed by a GSF4 carrier.

Geek Social Fallacy #5: Friends Do Everything Together

GSF5, put simply, maintains that every friend in a circle should be included in every activity to the full extent possible. This is subtly different from GSF1; GSF1 requires that no one, friend or not, be excluded, while GSF5 requires that every friend be invited. This means that to a GSF5 carrier, not being invited to something is intrinsically a snub, and will be responded to as such.

This is perhaps the least destructive of the five, being at worst inconvenient. In a small circle, this is incestuous but basically harmless. In larger groups, it can make certain social events very difficult: parties which are way too large for their spaces and restaurant expeditions that include twenty people and no reservation are far from unusual.

When everyone in a group is a GSF5 carrier, this isn't really a problem. If, however, there are members who aren't carriers, they may want occasionally to have smaller outings, and these can be hard to arrange without causing hurt feelings and social drama. It's hard to explain to a GSF5 carrier that just because you only wanted to have dinner with five other people tonight, it doesn't mean that your friendship is in terrible danger.

For some reason, many GSF5 carriers are willing to make an exception for gender-segregated events. I don't know why.

Interactions

Each fallacy has its own set of unfortunate consequences, but frequently they become worse in interaction. GSF4 often develops into its more extreme form when paired with GSF5; if everyone does everything together, it's much harder to maintain two friends who don't get along. One will usually fall by the wayside.

Similarly, GSF1 and GSF5 can combine regrettably: when a failure to invite someone is equivalent to excluding them, you can't even get away with not inviting Captain Halitosis along on the road trip. GSF3 can combine disastrously with the other "friendship test" fallacies; carriers may insist that their friends join them in snubbing someone who fails the test, which occasionally leads to a chain reaction which causes the carrier to eventually reject all of their friends. This is not healthy; fortunately, severe versions of GSF3 are rare.

Consequences

Dealing with the effects of social fallacies is an essential part of managing one's social life among geeks, and this is much easier when one is aware of them and can identify which of your friends carry which fallacies. In the absence of this kind of awareness, three situations tend to arise when people come into contact with fallacies they don't hold themselves.

Most common is simple conflict and hurt feelings. It's hard for people to talk through these conflicts because they usually stem from fairly primal value clashes; a GSF3 carrier may not even be able to articulate why it was such a big deal that their non-carrier friend blew off their movie night.

Alternately, people often take on fallacies that are dominant in their social circle. If you join a group of GSF5 carriers, doing everything together is going to become a habit; if you spend enough time around GSF1 carriers, putting up with trolls is going to seem normal.

Less commonly, people form a sort of counter-fallacy which I call "Your Feelings, Your Problem". YFYP carriers deal with other people's fallacies by ignoring them entirely, in the process acquiring a reputation for being charmingly tactless. Carriers tend to receive a sort of exemption from the usual standards: "that's just Dana", and so on. YFYP has its own problems, but if you would rather be an asshole than angstful, it may be the way to go. It's also remarkably easy to pull off in a GSF1-rich environment.

What Can I Do?

As I've said, I think that the best way to deal with social fallacies is to be aware of them, in yourself and in others. In yourself, you can try to deal with them; in others, understanding their behavior usually makes it less aggravating.

Social fallacies don't make someone a bad person; on the contrary, they usually spring from the purest motives. But I believe they are worth deconstructing; in the long run, social fallacies cost a lot of stress and drama, to no real benefit. You can be tolerant without being indiscriminate, and you can be loyal to friends without being compulsive about it.

Hey, Are You Talking About Me?
If I know you, yeah, probably I am. It doesn't mean I don't love you; most of us carry a few fallacies. Myself, I struggle with GSF 1 and 2, and I used to have a bad case of 4 until a series of disastrous parties dispelled it.

I haven't used any examples that refer to specific situations, if it has you worried. Any resemblances to geeks living or dead are coincidental.

Yes, I tried to point to that a bit in my journal. I hate seeing so many people look at the poll and contention and leave, assuming that half the furs here actually are in support of the cub porn.

What really bothers me is that the administration itself seems to be under the influence of these fallacies, and would rather turn a blind eye to all the people opposed to it and drive them off silently than just stand up and say "no" to cub porn. I want to think the FA team would have more intelligence and integrity than that, but somehow I don't have much faith at this point that I won't be proven wrong.

I'm not sure how often you're updating this, but add Iisaw and Graywolf to the list of people who have already bolted. And, what the heck, put me down as "considering leaving". I'm pretty small-time as far as pageviews and comments go, but about the only thing keeping me from leaving is the lack of a good alternative site.

I'll be leaving this site as well, if Cub porn is allowed. And this will be the last damn time i return to FA, cuz this is annoying.
Children getting fucked by a large adult? EWW!!!! They dont fucking know what sex really is in a age from 6 to 14!! (or younger/older, whatever) and thats just disgusting when a much much much older person stuff their things in innocent bodies. once again - EWWW!!! Hell no if i support that!!

Just an update for your list, but Showkaizer has removed all art from his gallery and is moving on... too bad, I'll miss his art here. =

I'll be leaving to as soon as cub porn's officially allowed.
It's a shame ppl are even debating about it.

This was posted today http://www.furaffinity.net/view/277544/ Due to the recent issue debate I believe this seems to be a blatant "fuck you" at the site admin and members, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. I have already posted a note to Dragoneer about it. It's things like this that have started the issue/debate in the first place. Admin can't catch all of them so they do need some help with removing the things that are against the ToS. That's why they make it easy for us to contact them and point these things out. It's still sick and disturbing. Just... eeew... **shudders**

Well - I'm gone.

http://www.furaffinityforums.net/sh.....d.php?tid=4257

They have decided to allow cub-porn, after all (despiet the fact that their poll resulted in a ban, even by a small margin).

The fact that even an admin can't see the difference between cub-porn and all the other illegal examples is rather stomach turning.

Perhaps they see no difference because the only difference involved is an arbitrary figure irrelevant to drawings and other fictions.

For those of you who will be leaving FA because they didn't ban cub art, may I suggest using Playmouse.

This furry art gallery website does not accept cub art.

Here's the website:

http://www.playmouse.com/

In playmouse's faq about cub art, it does say that cub porn is not acceptable.

Anyway, I'm staying on FA, and I respect Dragoneer's decision.

I'm not entirely decided on what I'm going to do about the site... I'm highly considering just having my own gallery on my site for original art and leaving my fanart to DA...

If the Cub art enters in silently and stays in the background and doesn't flood the site, I won't be going anywhere.

However, if it does end up ruining FA, in that most of the decent artists I follow & respect leave, or my audience leaves, or suddenly it's simply become a flood of nastiness & drama & what have you.... I WOULD consider leaving.

As of now, I don't know. I'm waiting to see what happens.

Either way, I have other galleries. I don't show any non-fur my FA page anyway, because there's a LOT of other shit here that I don't want to be associated with in front of people who may not "get" the whole furry thing. So I'm not worried about my rep being tarnished by staying here.

however, IF IF IF this ends up being the "beginning of the end" that some are claiming it to be... well then who knows where I'll be.

I share your sentiments completely.

I really don't have anywhere to go... maybe yiffstar, but that has nothing on this community. As a writer and appreciator of furry art, I'm essentially up a creek without a paddle now that so many of the artists I came here hoping to watch will be leaving. My writing is not welcome on dA, SA or any number of other places, and I can't find the art I want in writing communities.

I keep everything on FA exclusive to members for the same reasons, but I still care for my name as a member of this site. RL people may not see it, but I wouldn't want the name of Earthshine Saicin soiled by such things in any case... I've made my intent clear, however, so I needn't take it personally if anyone is so stupid as to hold staying against me... besides which, XianJaguar has a valid point about staying as an example.

As for if it's the "begining of the end", only time will tell the severity of the damage to the community... my hopes aren't high in that regard, but we have a ways to go before "critical mass" is reached, so you never know.

I don't know what to think of this anymore. I'm not against allowing it, because I'd rather people have a non-destructive outlet than take their acts out on a real life person, but... I'd rather not see the art become the norm here. If that's what happens, I'll leave, but my optomistic side says it won't dominate the site.

This whole situation sucks. I can't really leave, at least in my opinion, because I honestly don't like VCL as much as a real community-type site like this, and DA's too big for me to be noticed at all (lord knows people several hundred times better than me don't get noticed either). Playmouse is an option, but I honestly don't draw a lot of hard- or softcore stuff, I think...

I share your sentiments about dA and other sites. FA had something special... It's beginning to lose that, but only time will tell how much of it. I would like to stay, but after witnessing administration in action both here and abroad, I tend to be cynical of such things.

My most recent journal has a better description of how I see things, if you care to read it... this one is obsolete.

Feel free to add my name to the list of those leaving.

I already did... you were one of the first, since I read it in your journal at some point while upkeeping this thread. I'm sorry to see you go, but I fully understand and support your decision.

Someone should make a musical about this !

This all reminds me of the song So long and thanks for all the Fish .

there are very few places to go. All these that leave will want to come back. When they find out, there really isn't anyplace that they enjoyed as much freedom and had so many fans. Will they want to build back up thier fanbase in a new location? i don't think so they will look back and regret thier desision

That depends on their reason for leaving... for those few leaving in protest, that's a possibility. For those leaving in earnest because the ruling conflicts with their beliefs or strong moral standards, they won't be back...

So, uh. Have you all left yet?

I just did a comparison listing. Of those names here, 15 are on my watch list. I have a total of 605 on my watch list. That's less than 3% of the artists I watch. I'd be amazed if the number climbs as high as even 5%.

Ahkana, Chris Sawyer, Nimrais, and Thaily all have other places I can view their art. As for the others, well...[shrugs]. I'm sorry to see them leave, but it doesn't really affect me much.

In the end, it's not a community's job to base itself on objections to anything that does not exist outside the theme of the community, with the exception of flames/spam/etc. I support the right of individuals to have certain "moral standards", because that's part of freedom, but the other part is that they also don't have the right to dictate them to others.

When all is said and done, I think you may be surprised.

I watch almost 400 people, and of them, over 10% have decided to leave. It's not just how many, but who - professional-grade artists and animators make the majority of the people who left on my watch list.

The numbers seem to have hit their peak...and I'd say I've lost maybe 7-8% of my watchlist. As you say, sadly, about half of those are "professional" artists whose art I enjoy.

Again, it's unfortunate, and personally I think they're being a bit prudish...or overy prudent...whichever applies best. I hope they return, but if they don't, it's not something I'll lose sleep over.

I don't know any of the people on this list.

Like that chick from Suikoden, I demand more people in your party before I will join you.

Exodite Dragon and denali_kat have also left.

1. Legality
Yes, the laws can change and make portrayals of child abuse (or any other illegal act) themselves illegal. It can happen, and it can happen at any time without much or any warning. But we can only base our actions on what is on the books now.
Secondly, yes, people can get persecuted and prosecuted for acts that aren't actually illegal. It's rare, though, and generally results in not just an aquittal but a lawsuit against the government. So long as the person charged doesn't believe the prosecution's lies - and if they're doing this, they *are* lying to the defendant about what is illegal - and stands up for himself, they'll come out all right.
Lastly, I'm can't see why you think this can create a civil case. A judge would be well within his bounds to toss it out of court.

2. Morality
Yes, I certainly agree with you when you say that a lot of people find this art immoral. I will even agree with you that I find the subject matter distasteful, myself. But it is like Voltaire said: "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Since the art is not illegal, and as it is only a drawing and thus not actually hurting anyone to create it, I see no reason not to let this art be made and displayed.

3. Setting an example
Why do you assume showing a drawing of someone sexually abusing a child (or cub, if you prefer) means they support pedophelia? It means nothing of the sort. It means that they support free speech and artistic license.
And people don't need to point to FA as "proof" that furry is full of pedophelia. There's plenty of that elsewhere. Those who will associate you with those pictures will do so no matter where you are, just because you're furry. People who are willing to listen and judge people individually won't care if you're in the same art distribution system.

4. People leaving
Yes, people are leaving. Some of them are darn good artists, darn good people, or both. But this matters little. For one thing, I doubt it'll be all that many people. There will be plenty of other artists who aren't leaving. You can still see their art here, and it's not all going to be pedophelia. Not even close. Secondly, those who are leaving have said that their art is still going to be available online. You can still see their art, even their new art, it just won't be on FA. There may be a few people who leave furry fandom entirely over this, but they will be a very, very small minority. So far, I personally haven't seen anyone say that they will.

5. if you allow it, they will come...
An interesting possibility, but I doubt it'll happen. A very large percentage of the pre-permissive population has to leave in order for this ball to start rolling, leaving the people who actually create that "attraction" or are themselves attracted in the majority or a very large minority. With (reportedly) 30,000 users on FA, I really doubt enough will leave for the remaining artists to make cub porn noticeably more predominant in the new art pages.

Fallacies
1. Slippery-Slope Logical Fallacy
If you ban cub porn, it doesn't mean all the drawings of other stuff that is illegal and/or immoral will be banned. I agree, there. But it does mean that there is no real argument for why they shouldn't be. The line will be drawn, I'm sure, well before bondage, vore, and bloody claws get the boot. But where it gets placed will be entirely arbitrary.

2. Straw-Man Logical Fallacy
I haven't seen anyone, from either side, claim that the anti-cub-porn people want to ban all art involving adolescent characters. I'm not saying they haven't done so, since I can hardly claim to have read post in every thread on every site involved with this debate. I have to agree that it's a stupid argument to make (assuming, of course, that the anti-cub-porn people *aren't* trying to ban all art involving underaged characters, and I'm going to assume they're sane enough not to advocate that). All I can say is that people on the "allow it" side who are claiming the "ban it" people want to kill underaged character art are exactly as extreme and psycho idiots as those on the "ban it" side would have been if they actually *did* want to ban all that stuff. In any mass debate, there are people who go overboard - on both sides.

3. Straw-Man Logical Fallacy
I haven't seen this, either, and my response here is pretty much the same as my last one.

4. Biased Sample Faulty Generalization Fallacy
Well, the poll was basically 50/50. (Yes, "ban it" won, but only by one vote - well within the margin of error of such a survey.) So half the people were pretty much guaranteed to disagree with whatever decision was made. Since I'm not sure what the claim *is* that you are claiming is a fallacy, it is hard for me to refute it. All I can say is that, given the poll, the admins were essentially left to make the decision for themselves.

5. "Ostracizers are Evil" Social Fallacy
I've never seen a problem with avoiding people I find disgusting, annoying, or chronically disagree with. If being around them makes me unhappy, why should I bother to stay around them?
But, again given the poll, a lot of people were guaranteed to be upset. If we ban this art, people would leave because FA is no longer a permissive place. If we allow this art, then some people would leave because it is too open to too much. Either way, FA loses people. Either way, though, it is a case of *self*-ostracizing. And that is their choice to make. Since we make them uncomfortable to be around, they left. That's their right, and I agree with their choice to make it.

1.
I happen to know someone whose older brother was arrested and convicted of posession of child pornography (a felony), sentenced to jail time and forced to register as a predatory sex offender because hentai (that's pornographic anime) was discovered on his computer that depicted what was deemed to be under-age girls. It's not as rare as you think, and the consequences are very, very serious.
The judges would have been well within their bounds also to throw the injured burglar case out of court, or the woman who sued a fast-food franchise because their coffee was hot. The fact of the matter is that these cases don't get thrown out of court nearly as often as they should, and for every frivolous case, there are a thousand filthy lawyers willing to take it to the courtroom. So when a mother is looking for someone to sue for her child being molested, what makes you think she can't pin it on the 'cub porn' of the furry community? Heck, if the guy who did it has an anthro picture on his wall or a link to FA in his browser history, it's almost a done deal.

2.
There is widespread contention as to whether cub porn can lead to people getting hurt, so I'm not even going to go into that. However, morality is a construct that exists for the purpose of acting as a mechanism to prevent harm to oneself or one's community. The fact that it is deemed to be immoral is indicative of its capacity for harm. The correlation is there, and so is the danger. pedophiliac images are considered a threat by society, and are therefore deemed immoral.
Know what else is immoral? The neutron bomb. It was deemed a threat by the UN, and banned on the grounds of immorality. I may disagree with that and think it is a very clean, sane, effective and humane weapon of mass destruction, trivial in comparison to the now widespread thermonuclear weapons, but my opinion doesn't count, because society has seen fit to deem neutron weapons immoral and embrace nukes in MAD. If someone made a neutron bomb, we'd nuke them, or at the very least plunge their country into war. The point is, morality may be subjective, but in a world where society makes the rules based on it, God help you if you break them. You're free to say what you will, and with that comes responsibility, but what you say and what you do are two different things. Cub pornography isn't free speech, and displaying it on FA isn't a right.

3.
I never did, and if you really comprehended what I posted, you would see that. I said it may be ENTIRELY INACCURATE, But that's _still_ the message it sends. In fact, it already has, as proven by the fact this fiasco came up for discussion in the first place. Let's get one thing straight: people are dumb, ignorant animals. If they see something they don't understand, they panic, and when they see a sexually-suggestive picture of a clearly young anthropomorphic caracter, they become _panicky_, dumb, ignorant animals. They scream "pedophilia!" and naturally, anyone who so much as tolerates it is supporting it.
On the subject of your second assertion, I'll bet you that before this year is out, a trollish article about furs being pedos will circulate the internet that points to the poll here as conclusive evidence. Would you like to put your money where your mouth is and take the wager?
As for people not caring about you sharing a distribution system with it, just tell that to all of the professional artists here who will leave because they can't risk their careers over this. Employers don't care about judging people individually, because they don't have to.

4.
FA is a community site, the purpose of any community site being to bring people together to one place to share their art and ideas. When you begin driving esteemed members of the community away, you fail at this. What's truly disturbing in this case is that kind of people FA is driving away are the very kind that hold communities together. In spite of being a writer of adult material, I tend to keep good company in communities such as this, and among the company I keep I have seen no less than three people back out of the furry fandom in its entirety over this. My real concern however is the FA community shooting itself in the foot by driving so many artists to simply leave and take their art elsewhere. Of the dozen or so artists I joined FA specifically to watch, only four remain, and maybe fewer once it's all said and done. This essentially means that I don't have any reason to stay here myself, and could end up leaving because of that. Things like this tend to snowball if they reach a critical mass, which I get to in...

5.
This happens, a lot. It is especially common with web forums and troll populations. In my experience, it is the number-two killer of forum communities, next to neglect. Whether it happens with FA and cub art depends on a number of factors, known and unknown. Only time will tell. Nevertheless, even if critical mass is not reached, the effect on the community is damaging. FA ceases to be "the place to go" for a vast and eclectic selection of furry art and turns into just another backwater furry community waiting for something better to come along.

***

1.
Arbitrary placement of the line is unavoidable, but the most wise decision as to where to place it would have been before cub porn, not after.

2.
Accurate enough...

3.
You mean Ad-Hominem, right? I assume that's what you meant, since Straw-man was 2... anyway, I've actually seen a lot of this, specifically from people on the pro-allow side of the argument. It manifests a lot in the claim that people who back out of FA on moral grounds don't matter, specifically with respect to those who threaten to back out in protest if their "Freedom of expression" is "oppressed" by banning cub porn. There's also the endless contemptuous flaming and trolling of those who oppose them. That counts as Ad-Hominem even if it is not specified as argument for their cause. Frankly, the level of libel and slander directed at those who were in support of the ban sickens me, and many people have expressed that they will be leaving FA as a result of the venomous attacks on ban-supporters rather than the decision to allow it.

4.
Putting the vague, bipolar poll up in the first place is encouraging heavily biased sampling of the community's views on the matter. Putting it up on the forums rather than the main site further contributes to the problem, and let's not forget that people were caught making multiple accounts in an effort to skew the results. A number of more specific polls showed far different results and constructed a solid case for keeping the ban. What the ban/allow poll really showed is...

5.
http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/ww.....inion/gsf.html
50% of people hated it enough to ban it, while a majority of the other 50% still hated it, had a difficult time being intolerant enough to just say no. The community's position is anything but weighted in favor of allowing cub art, to the point that a very large number of people are so firmly against it they will leave if it is allowed. The number of people who would have left if the ban on cub porn had been upheld is drastically smaller, and limited to a few people who draw nothing but, and a tiny sampling of drama queens and extremists who may or may not make good on their threat to leave in protest. What the community administration has opted to do, and what I disagree with from both a moral and logical perspective, is to back down from the challenge of confronting and saying no to these few loud-mouthed individuals, and appease them at the cost of a far larger number of artists, with the justification that since the artists decided to leave on their own, it's not really their fault they were driven away. It's a lot like a parent giving in to a whiney 2-year-old and allowing it to boss them around, only the outcome is far more desctructive.

I'm done and gone from FA because of this change.

Sorry to hear, man, Godspeed.

I'm very sorry to see you go, and I hope you find someplace better. Your art was fantastic, and one of the reasons I came here.

* Calorath

(No Subject) Posted November 5th, 2006 03:15 PM
You know.. you really make a good point. I think for the time being I'll sit on things and make my decision when I see how the cards play out.

So yeah. I guess you should move him from "will leave" to "may leave".

I stopped adding to or updating the list when the final decision was passed. You can read more about that in my latest journal if you want...

I agree wholeheartedly with what Xian has to say on the matter, but with that I fully respect anyone's decicion to leave. I just want people to know all the facts before makign any decision like that.