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A Final Attempt to Clarify the Drama
12 years ago
Friends... I'm going to try to be as neutral as I can be here.
It would appear that recent issues have torn some of us asunder.
If you would care to read any further (many won't, and will settle for their own assumptions, making complete fools of themselves as they comment below), I might be able to clear some things up...
...But before doing so, please understand ONE thing. This is NOT an attempt to criminalize any one person. On the contrary, this is an attempt to bring clarity to BOTH angry sides in order to diminish the level of anger and prejudice that has resulted from the discussions of current dramatical issues.
ALSO, please keep in mind that, like EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU (the only ones who know for SURE are the two involved), I am writing this letter utilizing the limited information that had been made known to me.
What we have here is a situation that is, in many peoples' minds, unresolved. We have the words of an intentionally private, yet LEAKED note of one party vs. the written summarization of the other party. Either could be true, and EITHER could be a lie, half the truth, the bending of the truth, etc. THUS, we have a 50/50 POSSIBILITY of a PROBLEM.
***THIS IS A PROBLEM... THAT CANNOT BE SOLVED WITHOUT CONFESSION.***
Sad, but true, the only other way to know for SURE, and without doubt of fabrication of what happened, would be to have video or vocal recordings of what happened-- something we shall NEVER obtain.
For most, this is reason to dismiss the entire issue, because if there's no evidence then there is no problem. BUT HERE'S THE KICKER-- there IS still 50% possibility of a problem! And to MANY, if the problem DID happen, then it a HUUUUUGE issue.
Allow me to explain perspectives of both sides....
SIDE A opinions:
1.) If the accused is innocent, the accused will be subject to ridicule from hundreds-- if not thousands-- of people for a crime he did not commit. This is a nightmare that could happen to ANYONE. Nobody likes the possibility that a party, simply seeking revenge for a broken heart, could achieve the destruction of another person's social stature by playing a victim.
2.) There is no OFFICIAL court evidence. Why take sides when the law itself has not taken one? Nobody wants to be part of an angry mob shrouded by ignorance.
3.) This could be net drama that has gone out of hand. We've all seen how angry outbursts thrive on the internet. Sometimes they are legit, but other times it's just social justice warriors making mountains out of mole hills.
4.) A criminal will get away with it. A person will be wrongly accused of taking advantage of someone, and the accuser will be free to wrongfully vilify someone else.
SIDE B opinions:
1.) If the accused is guilty, then the other party member is a victim of manipulation. They victim was coerced into a sexual act that they were initially unwilling to partake in. If this is the case, it is simply disgusting.
2.) There is no OFFICIAL court evidence -- and there NEVER will be. Even though the victim was coerced, that is still counted as "willing" in a court of law -- this still DOES NOT make it right.
3.) There are apparently SEVERAL other women who claim to have been treated THE SAME WAY by the accused, but they FEAR coming forward, because they DO NOT want the negative attention. Many women claim to have suffered from or witnessed similar behavior from the accused, claiming his disregard for "I have a boyfriend" and "No", but they are too afraid to come forward, for fear of public ridicule. To them, doing so would be like dawning the scarlet letter.
4.) A criminal will get away with it. A person will have been violated, and the accused will be free to possibly take advantage of other women.
There is also a third side, who feel that there is MORE than just a sexual immorality issue....
SIDE C opinions:
1.) The accused is a huge jerk. Many feel that the accused has been extremely rude to those who have spoken to him IRL and online. Reports of rude comments, unnecessarily demeaning ridicule of character, public fan-snubbing, and more have surfaced around the accused's behavior, making him a narcissistic, sociopathic jerk in their eyes, unfit for the job to which he has been assigned.
2.) The accused is not really qualified for the job. Many feel the accused is unprofessional, and not as knowledgeable about the coding of the site, and are upset that the original team has left after having enough of the accused's attitude.
3.) Outside of the issue of the accused, there have been OTHER major problems with the site, which leaves few reasons to stay. The site has gone down numerous times, sometimes for weeks/months. There have been claims that there has been harbouring of a convicted animal abuser. There have been many promises unfulfilled. Many feel there have been several instances of abuse of power with post deletions, favoritism, and unwarranted user bannings -- all of which give some users ample cause to disassociate themselves with the site.
***************WARNING!!! INCOMING PERSONAL OPINIONS!!****************
Here is the kicker...
YOU ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO STAY... AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO.
BUT...
If you give someone shit for EITHER choice.... you are an asshole.
People who want to STAY have the RIGHT to not give a shit about what happened, whether they believe it happened or not. It is NOT their duty to take action, and any attempts to villainize them basically makes YOU a FUCKING DOUCHEBAG who is trying to FORCE someone to believe as you do. Just because you have certain standards DOES NOT mean that everyone else HAS to live up to them.
People who want to GO have the RIGHT to go, because they see legitimate proof of the steady decline of this community. To call them "foolish," de-watch their galleries, and retract your support of their work makes YOU a FUCKING DOUCHEBAG who is inconsiderate of another person's opinions/choices (which, mind you, are at least 50% correct -- possibly MORE if lumped with the beliefs of SIDE C), unworthy of being an artist's fan in the first place. If you enjoy an artist's work, PROVE it and support them no matter WHERE they go, unless they offend you PERSONALLY.
I am hoping that I have brought perspective to both sides of this argument. My one request is that, regarless of what decisions are made, everyone PLEASE be respectful of the decisions others are making. Anything beyond that, and you are simply CREATING and SPREADING unnecessary negativity.
"But GuNMouTH, what is YOUR opinion on the current DRAMA ISSUE?"
I can only tell you my own experiences with this guy that everyone's had a problem with (the accused)... First of all, he has snubbed me every time I have seen him in person. He would approach my former fiance and I, I would say "Hey man, what's up?", and he would give me this "Ew" look and turn away to talk to my former fiance. Despite how lousy that made me feel each time, I am understanding of the fact that simple-minded creatures cannot fathom my incomprehensible beauty~ *fart sound*.
I was, however, a little less accepting of the creepy questions he would ask my former fiance over AIM. And while I do not know EVERYTHING they talked about, I cannot help but wonder what else may have been discussed.
My personal experiences, coupled with what I have heard from other women who have had problems with him, have left me to make my own... personal... silent conclusions...
Good luck to ALL of you in making your own.
Never Stop Rockin'
So not only do I find this drama nonsense to be incredibly childish, I think it is also dangerous because it leads people to make bolt decisions that they may regret later...
As for your comment below, I have been blocked by a couple of people I was watching as well for voicing my opinion about it. Apparently I am a "rape enabler" and "victim blamer" for taking a neutral stand on a situation concerning two people I have never even met before :P
But this works both ways, I have seen a fair number of people who made rude comments when an artist announced that they are gonna leave FA.
They may thing that FA is like a hammer covered in poo, but hammer covered in poo is still useful for its purpose.
Listen. FA has more users than any other site and most artists who do commissions have an established audience here. When you move to a place like Weasyl you start from scratch. So of course this is a difficult move! Sure it can work but it's gonna be hard.
As for the other things, that was pretty much blown out of proportion. Zaush is at worst a horrible person but not a criminal. And they only removed comments that violated the TOS. Those comments were nothing but groundless accusations fueled by rumors and drama.
True it could have been handled better by the admins by issuing warnings but things exploded too fast that they jumped the gun with their response.
Hell, even Gaia Online didn't outright ban/suspend people for calling out members of staff for piss-poor marketing decisions.
FA became the #1 furry community long ago, and it will more than likely maintain that role for some years to come, which MAY cause several users to reluctantly keep their galleries going here.
While lollazer said that he believes leaving FA entirely is a "bad business decision" and the the "drama is childish," they never referred to the artists in any demeaning way, unless I am missing something.
Evidence: Personal first-hand experience.
I left this site for many of the Side C, #3 opinions up there a little over 3 years ago. I left for another venue that I supported and believed in, hoping more people would follow and that venue would thrive. Despite being fairly well established with just over a decade's worth of a following built up, and having a larger number of watches than all but a handful on this new venue, the drop in visibility from leaving FA was significant and indisputable. As time went on, decisions and stances taken by that new venue caused the viability of that venue to serve my needs as a self-employed commission artist to dwindle.
A little over a year ago, it finally reached the point where sustaining myself with commission work via that venue just was no longer possible. I had no choice but to resurface here if I wanted to keep paying the bills.
I was excited when Weasyl was first announced, but due to SEVERAL other FA alternatives coming and going over the years, I didn't get my hopes up. And while Weasyl is a decent venue, it's still simply not the massive userbase FA has.
All venues are not equal, and they do not have equal potential or possibility for people who want to work for this community as their living. While some may be able to manage to make it work on their venue of choice, that's not universal, and by no other virtue than just the size of the userbase, despite all that it can be faulted for, FA still remains the most viable option for someone in the business of doing creative work for this particular fanbase.
Kudos to those who can manage to leave because that's what they wish to do and avoid having to come back out of necessity. But it's not something everyone can manage, and it is NOT wrong or incorrect for someone to point out that no, not all venues have a good enough chance of getting work.
Problem solved. ;)
If they come back to no one watching them, an have to start over
Building there rep an watchers again, they will think twice before doing the
Omg I'm leaving forever drama thing again.
But i have been putting up with these, lets burn furry to the ground if we can't have are way, since the days of the burned furs.
An now feel there should be consequences for engaging in such behavior.
If we don't ever say, All right enough of that, were just setting are selves up for the yearly melt-down over the newest rage-quit flavor of the month. :(
But you worded this journal very well, and you kept to the mostly neutral stand point. I have a feeling you'll still get people trying to justify their sides of the arguments though lol
And people can justify themselves all they want. As if I'll still bother to judge people three days from now. :P Pretty difficult for me, since I am very forgetful and bad with names.
I agree with every single word you say.
Now we have literally a great number of artists going crazy. Doing something that pisses me off the most when they leave a site, the delete every damn thing so nobody can view their art here anymore and they may have lost dozens of art they have done and posted here for years. I understand if they want to cut ties to a site but "fuck it destroy everything" is wasteful, petty, and deserves a karmatic punishment to equal their wasteful actions. Though I do understand they have nothing that binds them to have to give watchers like me art to view in the first part. It's just sad they would go so far as to destroy their art to move on. It's be like a great artist in the past dying and saying "Fuck it!" and then proceeded to deface and destroy whatever he could get his hands on that he or she made.
Sometimes we miss out on things, and it is inevitable. When such things happen, we can choose to be bitter or better.
There are artist verbally assaulting people who stay.
The only real problem is the lack of a structured AUP and well abuse of power over this entire incident...
But if their conditions are, "MAKE A NEW ACCOUNT ON ______ WEBSITE and get a discount" then I don't really see a problem with that. That's simply marketing incentive.
The verbal assault of those who stay needs to STOP.
also direct C/P about the discounts
The perks of following me to Weasyl:
• Discounts! Commissions taken on Weasyl will sometimes feature either a discounted base price, or waived fees for things like complex characters.
It'd be like Costco charging you 5$ less for something you could get at Sam's Club, for example... They're not saying "if you don't shop there you get the discount." just "this item is cheaper -here-"
I cannot find their journal now.
Saying that's somehow cheating the users at FA is the most entitled thing I've heard in a while. There's nothing stopping people here from seeing and trying to arrange their deal there.
Its nothing but sensible marketing. People could do the opposite if they so wished, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to.
The one I did remember was more incentives.
Where they say that they aren't leaving FA but they will only post thumbnails/cropped images or censored versions of all picswith a iink to the full version on weasyl.
Say the city planted some kind of sewage drainage pit right beside a place that you frequently visit for food. The owners of the restaurant move to a NEW location, placing a sign in front of the old building that directs you to the new place. To some, that is a huge inconvenience, because maybe that new location is out of the way for them.... but to the restaurant owners, it is a place without poo gas.
Fortunately for art viewers, all they will have to do is click a link, and not drive a mile +
It's one thing if the site doesn't allow it and the link is so you can see itlike human porn on ink or anything FA doesn't allow.
Its like a Video game company releasing the demon on every single platform, you can play it on ANYTHING...but the final game is say is Xbox only. People are subconsciously comparing artists to companies because both of them NEED their watchers. If we don't fave your work, you don't get as much chance to appear on the front page, and get less initial advertisement, which means less watchers, less watchers means less chance of getting commissions.Less commissions equals less money, so if they want to make a living off of art, it doesn't matter what they want, it matters what we want. Now artists aren't big companies, so expecting that of them isn't practical...but its understandable why, since artists sometimes say they want to be more "professional" being professional would mean they wouldn't take a side, so people criticise them because they have.
Simply put, people say something that comes across hypocritical others want to call them out on it. Since so many people have attempted to call someone out ion something in this recent matter.
Also you're wrong about the art viewers, some people lock things for view by people with an account only, so if we don't want to support Weasyl for whatever reason, its feels like we're being blackmailed into using the site. Doesn't matter if it is or isn't blackmail, just that we feel it...because feeling is why this event escalated so much really isn't it?
i won't associate with people who think coercing and manipulating people is a hunky dory thing to do
those who wanna stay neutral though, nah, that's a-ok
just keep doin your thing
whatever really
this entire thing is just making me want to play a sitcom laugh track whenever it comes up
Problem is, as I stated in SIDE A, many people feel there is not enough evidence to support whether or not a crime really was committed. For now, it's just "he said - she said" material.
The only other evidence that could support the proof of foul play are the public testimonies of others who have found themselves in similar situations with the accused. Sadly, as with most similar cases, such victims FEAR coming forward, and thus those seeking evidence never see it.
So for most of those people, it's not that they stand beside coercion or manipulation, but rather they are doubtful that it even happened.
and that's what angers me b/c that kind of mindset is EXACTLY the reason why cases like this DON'T get reported to the police, because people react in exactly that "shrug, it's no big deal" fashion and it creates a really problematic mindset
so like...in my eyes at least not admitting that there was SOMETHING shady going on just sets off big red alarm bells in my head, heheh
Oftentimes in situations like this, it isn't a matter of "who is right/wrong", but more of a matter of information acquired, and the individual comprehension of said information. Some may be mislead by the wrong information, some may not have ENOUGH information, and some may be too stupid to understand the information.
This happens on BOTH sides of most arguments.
When this happens, I feel it is best to brush away the ANGER FACTOR as well as PERSONAL FEELINGS, and approach the situation in a logical form.
In THIS situation, I can see valid reasons for BOTH sides on whether to stay or go, which whittles this down to PERSONAL USER CHOICES. And when you understand that it is truly a PERSONAL decision, you must understand that it is a decision that is deserving of RESPECT, otherwise you are imposing your will upon someone else.
" "innocent until proven guilty" is something the COURTS have to do, but not US AS A COMMUNITY. please understand this."
We thread dangerously close to a grim line. I have no reasons to believe either side of the argument, but only one side has the consequence of potentially harming someone, which also open a precedence for future injustices against -everybody else-.
But sadly, by then the husband, suspected of being involved all this time, was dead. Car was found in the river. Many believed it was suicide.
_________________________
In another case, a young, disoriented man ran to the police for help, claiming the person he was with was crazy and trying to kill him. That person came in, told the cops he was the caretaker for the young man, saying the young man was going nuts from drug withdraw. The cops believed the man and let them both go about their business.
Later that night, that man, murdered the young man, cut him up and ate him.
_________________________
These are EXTREME cases, but the FEAR of taking action is sometimes just as great as the FEAR of inaction. When both sides clash, it gets ugly QUICK, because there is FEAR of the outcome.
When this kind of thing happens, one must be careful not to let FEAR prompt them into causing harm to those that disagree with their angered opinions. Just because someone disagrees with another does NOT make either a criminal.
No matter the outcome, I don't think any good will come out of it. :C
It's the FUTURE now! Where the rules don't fucking apply to us magical internet snowflakes because we're not within punching distance of each other anymore!
We can mudsling, slander/libel, lie, intimidate and blackmail whoever we want because no PHYSICAL crime is being committed! It's all on the internet and there are no rules on the internet!
Fuckin' jesus. x3
I do appreciate a well thought out journal, and it's level heads like yours that make all the extremist douchebaggery carrying on all around us look all the more utterly insane.
Honestly, there's not a single goddamn thing anyone can do about this stuff, and I mean ANY of it. If there are victims who want to press charges, whatever, good luck and more power to you, but that's between them and the accused. If none of them want to go through the hassle and heartache, and just deal with the therapy bills, again, your call, more power to you.
Next issue: You (meaning everyone out there in this case) don't own the website. Hell 90% or more of people on this site have never donated or given a red cent to it, so from a strictly legal perspective, nobody but the owner and his crew have ANY right to ANY input on the matters of staffing. Period, end of sentence. Even the people who HAVE donated didn't do so under contract stating they'd have shareholder input or anything, this ain't the fortune 500, people, so either deal with it or don't, you don't get to affect the outcome either way. While that might be kind of a shitty realization, hey, nobody's forcing you to stay and use the site's service either.
As to the Side C arguments, hey, that's personal stuff, and nobody has the right to denounce you for having a personal opinion on matters of personal experience. Just, please, for fuck's sake, don't try to hammer your opinions down other people's throats like I've seen happening all over lately.
Protip: Take a note from Gunmouth here, and just fucking think for a minute, hokay? Once you realize where you fall in the grand scheme of things, make an informed decision, and live with it. Because anything other than that makes you look like kind of a dumbass.
I would not say that nobody has any right to giving input. For one, this is a community, and ALL opinions have a potential to influence everyone in a positive or negative way. Artists may not pay for their galleries, but it is THEIR WORK that brings interest to this site. Users may not draw, but their interest and/or money keep this site going.
Both users and artists don't necessarily have the RIGHT to control this site... but they DO have the right to remove their investment in a site if they feel their voices are not being heard.
Yes, it is wrong to hammer opinions down upon other users. That is the whole point of this. This includes those that would mock someone for returning. They have the right to come and go as they please.
I am not saying people need to just shut up and move on, though. This is a situation that has valid warrant for attention. I AM, however, saying people can still make their decisions and still be friendly with each other.
but yeah whole thing was dumb...blah :U
mine was Pleasurebonbon.
YERF <3 squeaky clean archive ftw
In the case of a simple, "I'm unwatching their page because it does not exist here, but I will still follow them elsewhere", then of course that is fine.
You can still enjoy artwork, support an artist, and be happy for them without having to sign up for any site.
For instance, you can buy Fred Perry's "Gold Digger" comics without following his FA page
I would only ASSUME, however, that one person who likes one other person's artwork would simply choose to follow whatever gallery they make. *I* do. I watch some people on Pixiv even if they post the same art HERE, on the off-chance they might post something different in both places.
I agree with ya, I'm just staying out of it all. Though I don't like how a large majority of artists are saying how they'll sell their work on weasyl first in order to make me go there >^>; I mean, they can do what they please! But it's like they're trying to persuade me with benefits haha xD
You don't HAVE to eat at Burger King. Nobody is forcing you to never eat at McDonald's again. Burger King just wants you to try their stuff. :)
The wisdom of junk food!
......
OMNOMNOMNOMNOM....
....
OMMMMMMNOMMMMMNOMMM!!!
Burger King did say I COULD HAVE IT MY WAY
Can you REALLY....?
It's not McDonald's or Burger Kings fault, its the fat-asses that eat there.
Careful if a van is mentioned or you see a box propped up by a stick!
MY ONLY WEAKNESS O A O;;;
I'm SO THERE!!!
Wait, this isn't candy... these are handcuffs!
This would be the major reason I'd leave FA if anything - I've seen people "ban nazi"-d by the admins for not agreeing with them or saying their opinions of someone else closely connected to the admin in question. I've heard about way too much favouritism from the administration and, instead of trying to be professional and compromise, they often shoot first, shoot second, shoot some more and not once ask a question.
One thing that I honestly dislike is that admins will ban you about saying something about another FA user... on ANOTHER website. If, for example, I posted on DA that I thought that [Admin A] only got the role, because they're screwing [Admin B] and that they don't deserve authority, I don't care if they find out - I didn't say it on FA. And even if I did, that's MY opinion. If I go out and personally after them on some kind of tyrade, then fine... but if I'm posting a journal (or replying to one), I shouldn't have to worry about the admin's black-baggers coming to steal my account away in the dead of night. If they want to post their opinion on me, then fine. I'm not going to send jack-booted thugs after them.
Absolute power, man...
As for the site's layout, I'm just used to it. Other sites are indeed far more intuitive (and it's been years since they've promised improvements), but I've been here long enough and can pretty much do whatever I want in my sleep.
but then you find out that you actually have to jump to Weasyl to view the submission in it's entirety.
Would that qualify as "Pulling a stunt?" posting something like that onto FA after an artist would have
recently mentioned they'd cease being active on Fur Affinity. And that would be after you discover
said artist had made an attention-whoring journal that they jumped ship and may or may not have
nuked their gallery in order to signify their outcry of distaste over the whole Zause/FA-admin drama.
As you said, this is a case of poo hands. And who's to say the cook didn't wash his hands in the kitchen after we went back to the table and told everyone our horror stories?
I think that is the issue for many folks. They do not want to feel that they owe any sort of gratitude towards someone they are not happy with.
xD
In other words, thank you and your incomprehensible beauty for being a voice of reason in all of this.
“Do you have multiple, independent accusations of sexual harassment from women in the community against the accused?”
The leaked notes point to one solid account of sexual harassment, regardless of whether any crimes were committed or not.
To correlate this to human resources at a business: if a manager has multiple, independent accusations of sexual harassment against an employee, that may not be enough to fire that person without corroborating evidence--i.e. it may not be enough to permanently ban the FA account. But you’re certainly not going to promote that person into a position of greater power.
Only Dragoneer can answer whether multiple women have sent him accounts of sexual harassment regarding the accused, but if he has that information and he still promoted that user to a position of greater power, that indicates bad management.
And if someone has a single sexual harassment complaint in the workplace... realistically they are probably already looking for another job (or should be if they are smart).
Note this has nothing to do with Gun's sides A, B or C above.
The issues I have are with artists who've taken this as an opportunity to burn bridges and alienate their current watchers on FA, doing so in as dramatic a way as possible, using this situation to create their own theatrical, dramatic, ridiculous exit from the site. If artists have reasons for moving their business elsewhere, I have no issue with that. That's their decision, and the issues with this site have been multi-layered and complex. But if someone is (a) inventing their own lies to add to this situation, (b) assuming whispered rumors are truth without actually looking at the situation in question, and © insulting their watchers while storming out, I have no respect for that attitude. And that doesn't make ME a "fucking douchebag" for feeling that way.
Text can be hard to derive someone's tone from, but if you're unsure, have you tried asking some of these people "storming out" their reasons? Or have you just said "SEE YOU IN A WEEK!" ?
The problem is that people are trying to force their will and -not- taking time to understand the other side's point of view. Comparatively speaking, though, i see -far- more abusive comments from people taking personal affront to those leaving. There's been some nasty, even down-right vile comments that, were i on the fence, would drive me away in a heartbeat. What's more, in the time it takes to make these comments, those same people could continue to watch some of their supposed favorite artists, and not have to without their art at all.
That's the kind of ridiculous garbage that I can't respect.
When one spreads ill will and unnecessary negativity towards others for simply having different opinions, that's just plain nincompoopery.
You have every right to lose respect for those being nincompoops.
I'm busy trying to get rid of Columbo anyway. Everywhere I go, he seems to be there.
If the plaintiff was lying than she is a criminal. False accusation against the defendant, slander and libile, and decimation of character.
If the defendant was guilty, than he could charged with rape depending on what the stat uncovers in their investigation.
Neer is equally guilty as an accessory to the crim for not reporting it and can also see jail time.
They are all guilty in my book.
The whole situation is sketch as f*ck though. =x
though my reasons for partially cutting ties with the site isn't so much the drama but people's reaction to it, I've seen some users show really polarizing statements on both sides, especially side A whose reactions to those leaving have just been insensitive and callous at worst (in fact some showed almost no empathy for those leaving that were formal sexual abuse victims)
no matter which side people were fighting on, it showed a really ugly side of the community that just made me feel disillusioned and alienated, artist I liked chewed me out for not agreeing with them because I try to explain valid reason WHY a lot of people are leaving, meanwhile people on my journals leaving comments questioning my choice and trying to trivialize it by saying I'm overreacting and how i shouldn't complain about a free site ever and how overrated Weasyl is and how everyone will be crawling back here ect. ect.
its like... something is seriously wrong with the way this site is being run if the staff just let's these kinds of incidents create such a toxic environment for so many people with no sense of accountability to the reputation of this site and what it's done to the community (let alone listen to any of their genuine concerns)
please tell me if I'm making any sense cause this have been really irking me for so long
Like literally, penis anger.
This is a day and age where you can do damn near everything, using a laptop/phone, or tablet... in the comfort of your own toilet seat.
If it's REALLY an inconvenience for someone to be on more than one art website (Many are ALREADY on tumblr, DA and FA combined), then they might consider planting their toilets in front of their computers, cuz I don't know if they'll SURVIVE the walk to the potty...
and all i can say is more power to you, i guess?
For me, it really was years of build up of disagreements with how the site was run. I have never personally stated I felt he was guilty, because frankly the things he said after the leak happened were enough for me to decide he wasn't the type of person I cared much for regardless of what happened that night. Him being given a position with the site along with another person whose moderating abilities had proven awful in the past was just the final straw after years of broken promises (remember Ferrox?). No site will be perfect, but Weasyl has about six years of bad feelings to match up with how I feel about FA right now.
I did not and have not told anyone they should leave. My decision was mine alone. I am a lucky person in that commissions are not my source of income, so the loss of them for choosing Weasyl was something I anticipated. Frankly people saying to others "See you next week!" and treating them as if they were traitors for wanting to post somewhere they felt more comfortable has solidified this decision. I was also fortunate that for the most part people who commented on my leaving were kind, and I appreciate their understanding.
There's still enough awful creepy shit done in public, and stories like Gunmouth's at the end of the OP, that mark the dude as someone who has absolutely no business being in power over other people in this community. Promoting him to be so is a hugely unnecessary self-inflicted wound on the community and website and shows a serious lapse in judgement on the part of the head honcho here.
Obama pulled back with the nomination of Larry Summers as Fed Chairman because of the media outcry, even though they are good buddies, and Obama probably thought Summers was the best guy for the job. You can't just ignore and silence people's opinions even if you think they're wrong. Sometimes you have to make compromises.
I have never seen explained why it would be worth angering the community this much just to put one guy in one job on this site. How could picking the #2 choice possibly be so terrible?
That is what pushed me over the edge, and why I will be using Weasyl as my primary gallery going forward.
It's not easy...hell, it's freakin' difficult to tell what's going on, sometimes. This is why I never judge anyone based off of an accusation. Period. Our system of justice just doesn't work like that, and this is exactly why. Does that make me heartless? I don't think so. I might be much more cynical than other people, but at the end of the day, I want to see justice done. Just done properly, to the correct authorities, and with the correct procedures.
In THIS case, not everything has been made clear... but there are things outside said event (separate, personal encounters) that seem to indicate that ONE of the outcomes may be the one most likely to have occurred. Is it PROOF? Not enough for the law, but it may be proof enough for people to choose to avoid someone. This is why, when you put yourself in a spotlight, you have to be EXTRA CAREFUL about how you treat those around you, or you'll only damage yourself in the end.
ok if you scroll down to me i will explain shit to yall
if you have read both sides of this story of Zaush being accused of rape.... you would find this shit fucked up.
i found out from a reliable source that the woman or man (dont really give a fuck) has brought more detail to this supposed act of rape. i myself have been accused of rape and been to court. now you may think oh hey im a rapist lets start bagging on this guy.... no dont even go there. thing is i was accused of something that never happened my lawyer told me to agree to the terms of probation for 2 years even though there was no evidence to back the statement of 1 mother who was a total bitch to my blood line family.
thing is im trying to point out Zaush even if he was or wasnt the suppposed rapist is owning up to anything he says because he feels its best in his duty to step up and just let everyone say your a rapist till your hearts content. sure it seems fishy but for fucks sakes just call him a rapist and leave him alone guys... seriously you give this man enough problems as it is with the shit about the website update but god GET OVER IT JEEZUS... everyone please listen take a deep breath, calm your tits, and try to read. everyone is biased of decisions one may have done in the past. this girl didn't realize that 1. he was trying to be sweet help her in her time of need of pleasure and just be a friendly person who could help with her NEEDS. 2. he is owning up to something that may or may not have even happened and shes just a total douche who wants something out of him.( if you have seen enough tv and shit you would know there are men and women who try to cry rape and get something out of it even though it never happened just like my bitch aunt did)
3. he is openly admitting he did some fucked up things in the past... GET OVER IT. the past is in the fuckin past, present is the present, and the future is the future.
please stop bitching and moaning over something that may or may not have even really happened. he stated he tried to help her in her time of need that she wanted to try and break up with her ex but got back with him. i think that sounds fishy cause ive seen men force a woman to come back by some things and i wont go into detail.
over all BACK THE FUCK OFF PEOPLE IT WAS IN THE PAST IT SHOULD STAY IN THE PAST DONT BE A FUCKIN BITCH PULL THE "oh you did this in the past so ill fuck you over with it" card shit happened back then way back then stop pulling that shit back up that you force the person into depression and can cause them to do things that will make them dissappear.
if you really wanna support anything guys give him a hug apologize say something that will be kind and helpful to him and make him realize that shit is in the past and just needs to be forgot. sure he did fuck up with the site updates but hey thats just in his nature to be a dick about somethings. have you never been a really big dick to someone over something so trivial. if you wanna troll me, flame me, put a pitch fork up my ass.... go ahead i wont respond to you and feed your lil thread. im the one who is deciding to write this tell you to stop, think about what your going to say, and how you should present it. if you really want to respond to me and discuss things stop and think dont try and say oh your defending him cause you know him. i dont even know him im backing him up from what i know is most likely a bitch who wants something from him just like what happened to me.
please understand that there are people who want to see both sides and want to see the right thing. sure ide tell him to step down from tryin to push dragoneer and shit for the site update but please everyone STFU PLEASE. end of discussion stop your nonsense now and nut up and shut up.
2.) Despite what may have happened to you, both parties must be considered. You can't assume that a person is a "bitch who wants something" when sheherself never intended it to be public anyway.
3.) Anyone who is apparently a "dick by nature" naturally deserves to be treated like a dick.
4.) You're telling everyone to nut up and shut up, yet yourcomment is the largest one here.
and i got both sides of the story i learned from a friend who wanted to dig deeper into the problem that the girl kept changing her story ALOT.
and the nut up and shut up thing im telling people to drop the subject of rape cause no one knows if it really did happen.
APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
you : let's be cool and let people do their own thing
some comments in here: yeah i guess you're right but iNSULT INSULT INSULT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE GRRRR
:(
Can't say I didn't see it comin.
This whole thing just gave them an entire goddamned buffet!
Thank you.
But if we weren't really personally involved.... then whats the point getting involved?
Isn't my job to police a website i view and occasionally post art on
Really the only sense i've seen is what someone above said
Possible artists wanting to get some fresh views, re-evaluations whatnots, capitalizing on this incident as an opportunity to paint themselves how they see fit and possibly gain bigger audiences.
In THAT regard, everyone in this web community has the right to voice approval/disapproval.
So yes, it is not your job, but no, you are involved by proxy.
"We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
- Elie Wiesel
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
- Edmund Burke
I can understand the sentiment that "If you support FA, you're supporting an administration that doesn't care about rape victims", but I don't know how helpful it is to shove that in people's faces. I think most people separate the site itself from the people running the site. I feel like, to most people, the site itself is just a tool, a thing, which is not inherently good or evil, and using the site in no way implies supporting ALL the policies of the site's administration. That's like saying that if your current president/prime minister/leader is seen by a lot of people as a douche, you should move to a different country in protest.
It all sucks. :y
If the person who made cars was a terrible person, would that make a car any less of a beneficial tool? If a politician seemed evil, should you feel obligated to move to a new country?
If so, we'd be moving all the time... on horseback.
As for neutrality. I feel that the ARGUMENT should be neutral, and that is why I did my best to make my journal as neutral as possible. However, I myself have made my own decision, and I hope others will as well. :)
I don't argue with people about whether or not what happened was rape for multiple reasons. The problem is not whether or not rape ACTUALLY happened. The problem is what to do when all you have is an accusation.
I personally think that FA dropped the ball and made a number of dumb decisions regarding all this. All of this could have been avoided if they'd chose chosen someone different, but they didn't. A lot of this could have been avoided if Zaush had resigned or been kicked off the staff, but that didn't happen, either. Instead, we had FA defending Zaush, saying that everything was OK because there was no legal conviction and that everyone should just shut up about the whole rape thing.
But in any case, it still comes down to your point. People are going to make choices one way or another. In general, it would be cool if we didn't all go "WOW UR CHOICE SUCKED", and instead said "Hey, I don't agree with your choice, but that's OK. You have the right to make your own choice given the evidence provided."
There's a great saying in psychological therapy that you can't MAKE someone change their mind about something. They have to come to that conclusion themselves. You can only provide them the information the need to make that decision.
And if their decision doesn't match what you WANT it to match... well then. It's up to YOU to choose whether or not you're cool with that and how you're going to treat them in response.
So then, the question would be, "When there is a severe uproar of people complaining about one individual being appointed to a certain position, would it be within the company's best interests to relieve said person from duty and hire someone else?"
The choice was made not to relieve said person, and thus current issues ensue. Individual assessment varies per individual.
This is simple politics.
One can SAY they have nothing to do with the political issues of the country they live in, but that does not exempt them from being affected by the political decisions that are made. You can say the same for any website community.
You have expressed your frustration. CONGRATULATIONS!! You are even MORE involved, just like everyone else who has, in turn, expressed their own frustrations.
You can only, truly uninvolve yourself by remaining silent.
A fun tactic in elections is to intentionally vote for the guy who will not win. That way you can always say that you didn't vote for the winner and remain justified in future complaints, should you have the need to. Never joining a party, and sometimes never even voting only serve to irritate the people who want your vote.
...I'm not sure where I was going with that, but it was fun to write lol
'Nuff said.
What really pisses me off is that I was considering giving Weasyl a try before the shit hit the fan. Now I'm stuck in a catch 22 of "If you stay you think rape is totally ok" and "If you go, you're a drama whore". T_T And what pisses me off even more is that people will label you like that while knowing ABSOLUTELY DICK about you.
I have been the victim of a sexual scandal before...then I was the victim of cyber bullying for five years that also dredged up the aforementioned sexual foible AGAIN. Now the entire internet knows me as a slut, a whore, someone who goes to airports to do sexual things with airplanes, someone for whom takeoff on a flight can cause orgasm, an immature attention-seeker who is incapable of being an adult or doing anything for herself. The real kicker to all of this is that my ex-FIANCEE was involved with the bullying! Oh, if they could live a day in my chef clogs...
This situation has gone the opposite direction, to an extent. This time, the man is taking a good deal of blame instead of the woman, as happened in my case.
Mind if I post a journal link to this? It's just so frigging GREAT...
You must be really.... really.... REALLYREALLYREALLYREALLY tall.
And yeah, as someone said before, it's derailing into a "damned if you do/don't" situation. I'm hoping to change it to "blessed if you do/don't", but it ain't easy.
Also, something I've seen going around that makes me snicker is "I'm going/go to Weasyl/random site. No rapists there!"
Is it just me, or is that statement incredibly stupid and naive?
As for trying Weasyl out, I made an account then posted "here's my account on weasyl at least it gives you a way to contact me when this site goes out lol -winkyface-"
No one has given me shit, and even though this whole situation has been kinda draining and upsetting only my friends have heard where I stand on it.
Can't.
Fave.
Journals.
><
"I am understanding of the fact that simple-minded creatures cannot fathom my incomprehensible beauty" <_< *nods* "rock on"
Also, excellent summary of the current dramalama farm that is FA at the moment
That was 3 years ago.
The Drama for this story died then for me, and the minor blip in made on the grand scheme of things happened for me then.
This stuff was public when it happened too, Everything was spilled out into the open.
It makes no sense for people to suddenly be butt hurt about it now, especially since I am seeing names I saw back then bitching about the same things they did back then too. It's like they forgot they did it already.
I had my butt hurt over it years ago, and it wasn't enough to stop using the site.
People just need to Preparation H and carry on be it here or elsewhere... @_@
The CURRENT problem is that many people do not want THAT person to be the new leader of the team in charge of making the new website.
Creepy Uncle Tom
Creepy Uncle Tom is a seemingly decent fellow. He has never been convicted for any crime, but some peoples' kids-- let's say, in this case, one of those kids was your daughter -- have reported that they have seen him peep on them while they change, or watch/filmed them as they went swimming, and he goes out of his way to hug kids for an uncomfortably long period of time.
Also, little Suzie claims Creepy Uncle Tom was touching her in a funny way. But Suzie has always been known for her overactive imagination, with talks of faeries and other imaginary friends... so she's probably just confused. Besides, Bill's worked with Tom for twelve years, and there's NEVER been that sort of behavior at the office. Oh, silly Suzie~ She's just trying to get attention from her parents~
Today, Creepy Uncle Tom wants to do voluntary work for the local day care...
Hmmmmmmmmmm......
Would you still send your child to that day care?
In this case, many people are taking their kids OUT of said day care, because they simply do not want THEIR kids to be the first of something bad.
The PROBLEM is that this creates an uproar amongst parents. Some parents are telling others that they are "stupid for staying", and others are telling others they are "stupid for going." This then becomes a problem where one party fears FOR the other party's kids, and the other party is telling them to mind their own kids' business. Both parties have equal rights, despite the possible, looming issues...
The day care owner has no personal qualms against Tom. To her, Tom's been a huge help, lifting all the heavy equipment, driving the kids around on the mini bus they have, cleaning so she does not have to strain her back. She's never witnessed him behave awkwardly. All she's heard were the frantic claims of a bunch of angsty parents who've been threatening to take their children to the day care that's 15 minutes further away -- and with gas prices as high as they are, she knows they'll come crawling back eventually.
While this is a slightly more frightening comparison, the similarities between both situations are virtually the same -- whether Uncle Tom has done something bad or not, many people are still not willing to take chances. Some parents want to leave the daycare for numerous other reasons: the day care lady smokes, there's stains on the floor that have never been mopped-up, her son's thuggish friends hang around the building sometimes, some kids claim the lady yells at them a lot, etc.
EITHER WAY, the parents have the right to keep their kids in, or take them out. Decisions have been made, and they will more than likely not change. As a result, the drama sticks around...
Surprisingly, some people still don't get it. :V