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Concerning film music industry ; Hollywood ain't no paradise
11 years ago
Looking for a place to chat? Join us at #composers on FurNet!
Want to be a film music composer? Here's some interessing facts you should know :
http://variety.com/2014/music/news/musicians-union-holds-rally-to-protest-outsourcing-of-film-scoring-jobs-1201155669/
There was a time when I wanted to be exclusively a film composer. I was always fond of the scores that Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, and the like would come out with. My early works reflect very much a Hollywood style to them, at least, middle-aged Hollywood and not recent Hollywood. However, when I was studying composing in Los Angeles, the very city to be learning that sort of thing, and getting the opportunity to work in the actual industry on a sort of "intern" basis, I actually got some hands on experience with people from the industry, and... it was less than pretty. I'll leave the details aside and say that it's just a very corrupt and toxic environment. If you're anyone but an A-lister who's well known, you're dirt to most people.
Now about film composers:
One of the reasons I left the Hollywood industry was the money. The composers are some of the lowest of the low in terms of pay, especially when you consider how much of a bearing the music can have on the effect of the final film. The composers I am speaking about are the average film composer (not the A-lister), one who works on B-list or low budget films OR positions you hold other than being the main composer for a film, that is, the assistants (who compose music that they do not receive any credit for), editors, orchestrators, and other secondary positions. The figures you will find online will seem high at first: the average is somewhere between $50,000 and $300,000 for a movie (David Bell: "Getting the Best Score for Your Film"), but this is before you take into account the expenses that the composer has to pay for to produce a professional sounding score. This means hiring professional musicians, getting professional studios, sound people, production, assistants, orchestrators etc. Whatever the composer is left with is his REAL pay. Even worse, as the article states, studio musician work in Los Angeles has been in decline as much as 50% in the past few years, and this is one of the reasons I had decided to leave LA. it is not the musician/art oasis that it makes itself out to be.
The second issue is some of the treatment you receive while at work. There is an overwhelming amount of oversight sometimes, and while it sounds like "oh well you have to do what people ask" it's far worse than it seems. Many people tell stories about how they were forced to do the laundry of the people they worked for, and did other very demeaning tasks in order to get the jobs they wanted. What was sad is how proud they were about it, like "OMG I got to do Hans Zimmer's laundry, that was such an honor!!" No thanks, I won't demean myself like that. Also, nowadays the creativity is very diminished and this is in part reflects the current trend that Hollywood is following of producing half-assed remakes with overly flashy effects: the music is made up more of synthesized drums, strings with ungodly amounts of reverb, and over the top horn lines that without computer editing would sound like shit. Possibly, that would all be topped off with a generic exotic string instrument if the movie takes place somewhere other than in the west. Gone are the days when a composer did their investigation on the music of a certain part of the world, and reflected it in the score, and gone are the days when the orchestration was colorful and creative.
Ultimately, I decided I'm much more effective in the concert setting and can make a much better living producing this kind of music that I am producing now, and I am doing well for myself, every year my situation is improving and I am getting more and more on commission.
Now for the musicians who are protesting:
This is a perfect reflection of how Hollywood is starting to concentrate the winnings to a few select groups within a production. Movie budgets and winnings are higher than ever and yet more and more, movie productions are sending more parts of the productions overseas in order to save every last buck they can, which i have no idea where those go, maybe to give the actors more bonuses? I'm not sure. Musicians of course are among the losers. Let me give you a perspective on what a professional musician asks for. I charge $200-300 to perform for a one hour gig (this can be on piano, organ, percussion, or flute), and I'm considered fairly entry level. A professional, in order to put in the practice that is required and then perform the piece, requires something more like $600 or so per hour, and then add to that the amount of time it would take to record an entire film score. And an orchestra would be at the smallest 35 pieces. This totals somewhere about $63,000 for an orchestra at the lower estimate. These musicians are not being greedy, this is a very modest living they would be making, especially if they live in a city that is as expensive as Los Angeles, and in the grand scheme of things, this is VERY low considering the budgets that some of these new movies command and considering the fact that the music can make or break a movie.
tl;dr:
Bottom line, working in Hollywood is not even close to the glamorous stories you're told; the work environment is horrible, the abuses of power are blatant, the creativity has plummeted in the past few years. And most importantly, the pay is not what you think it is, it's bad, and it's a big reason I left and now am living my dream doing music out in different venues, and it has been the best decision I have ever made. It is sad to see that with the budgets Hollywood commands that it is resorting to hiring musicians from out of the country to keep saving those little extra bucks and screwing over Los Angeles studio musicians. I really don't see how this situation in the article will be helped. I don't see what can possibly be done to bring the studio musician jobs back to the US, and back to Los Angeles specifically, where they SHOULD be.
Journal written originally by
Juniper_Squirrel , displayed here with Juniper's kind permission :3
I can only confirm what have been said. Juniper's experience with Los Angeles is a bit different of the way things work in Europe (London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna...) but to sum it up : you're as screwed as your US friend. In Europe, the laws on copyright garantee you a percentage on the incomes a movie makes. But producers are as greedy in Europe as they are in the USA. Either they will force you to abandon your right to a percentage (If you "agree" and sign a contract, they will definitely rob you those rights). The fact is, you will work for peanuts most of the time :
- For a 26mn movie, expect no pay at all. "That will make you more visible, having your name on the credits and such project to add to your resume is already something worth working for" is basically what you will be told about 95% of the time. Directors are powerless on this situation, given their own pay for the movie (when they get paid)
- For a 52mn movie, expect maybe 4000€. Given most studios and productions are located in the capitals (London, Paris, etc...), where life is insanely expensive, expect your pay to vanish in about two month of rent*. You haven't eaten, paid for your car, insurrance, got your licenses for the softwares** and your production devices, etc...
*You could say "I don't need to be on (let's say) Paris to compose. I can do it away and sent the music to the director. Yeah. I though that too. And I am moving to Paris after the current movie I'm working on is finalized.
** I will make a journal about studios and legal issues in most european countries. Most of you (an immense majority) think they can pirate their softwares and make money out of the music they create with this. Well... Nope.
- For a 90mn+ movies, the pay is variable but can go up to 50k€. You think it's a lot? Pay the London Symphonic Orchestra, the Orchestre National de Paris, the Berliner Philharmonik... And see what's left after that
The money generated by the music is estimated by the contract you signed. This fraction of the income is to be divided by 3. The composer (you) gets 1/3, the producer, as "he made the production possible by bringing the money in the first place", gets another 1/3, the editor keeps the last 1/3. Often the producer won't bother hiring an editor that would potentially spread your music on radio, TV or anywhere else. They often get the label of editor to get this 1/3 but won't do the proper job of communication that is expected from a real editor. What does that mean? That means over 100€ you made with your music, you keep 33€, the producers keeps 66€. I haven't talked about taxes yet. PLUS, the music being not spread to TV and radio, you loose all the royalties you could have got. Again, you're screwed.
There is countless of ways to get robbed by the producers. And they know every one of them. There is no friendly, cozy work environnement when you are a film music composer. 95% of the cases, you are the lowest person involved in the creative process. Litterally the lowest. You are nobody, and you're here to bring the 35% of the movie for the least amount of money possible.
"Okay, I can deal with stress and don't need a lot of money to live"
That's forgetting how single minded the producers are. You think you will compose your own music?
Forget about it ! Begginners compose Zimmer-style. Because "that works". Very few of us can actually compose the music they would feel "perfect" on the pictures ; producers want a big, fat sound, like in "The Dark Night". Two chords of horns and some strings staccati, and you're getting hurrays from the producer. Anything a bit creative, new, is considered "risky" and gets rejected if the producer think about his money (trust me, he does!)
No money, low esteem from the producer and the director, and no creativity encouraged (or even tolerated)... The composers' work is really tough for most, sometimes even not allowing to sustain on the job. I advise people who want to work in that industry to prepare themselve before considering to turn their dream into nightmare. Like my friend Juniper said, this is NOT the oasis Hollywood documentaries and DVD/Bluray bonuses display.
TL;DR : For those who don't want to read the whole stuff, here is a one phrase summary
If you have any question on that topic, I'd be glad to answer
karuno
http://variety.com/2014/music/news/musicians-union-holds-rally-to-protest-outsourcing-of-film-scoring-jobs-1201155669/
There was a time when I wanted to be exclusively a film composer. I was always fond of the scores that Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, and the like would come out with. My early works reflect very much a Hollywood style to them, at least, middle-aged Hollywood and not recent Hollywood. However, when I was studying composing in Los Angeles, the very city to be learning that sort of thing, and getting the opportunity to work in the actual industry on a sort of "intern" basis, I actually got some hands on experience with people from the industry, and... it was less than pretty. I'll leave the details aside and say that it's just a very corrupt and toxic environment. If you're anyone but an A-lister who's well known, you're dirt to most people.
Now about film composers:
One of the reasons I left the Hollywood industry was the money. The composers are some of the lowest of the low in terms of pay, especially when you consider how much of a bearing the music can have on the effect of the final film. The composers I am speaking about are the average film composer (not the A-lister), one who works on B-list or low budget films OR positions you hold other than being the main composer for a film, that is, the assistants (who compose music that they do not receive any credit for), editors, orchestrators, and other secondary positions. The figures you will find online will seem high at first: the average is somewhere between $50,000 and $300,000 for a movie (David Bell: "Getting the Best Score for Your Film"), but this is before you take into account the expenses that the composer has to pay for to produce a professional sounding score. This means hiring professional musicians, getting professional studios, sound people, production, assistants, orchestrators etc. Whatever the composer is left with is his REAL pay. Even worse, as the article states, studio musician work in Los Angeles has been in decline as much as 50% in the past few years, and this is one of the reasons I had decided to leave LA. it is not the musician/art oasis that it makes itself out to be.
The second issue is some of the treatment you receive while at work. There is an overwhelming amount of oversight sometimes, and while it sounds like "oh well you have to do what people ask" it's far worse than it seems. Many people tell stories about how they were forced to do the laundry of the people they worked for, and did other very demeaning tasks in order to get the jobs they wanted. What was sad is how proud they were about it, like "OMG I got to do Hans Zimmer's laundry, that was such an honor!!" No thanks, I won't demean myself like that. Also, nowadays the creativity is very diminished and this is in part reflects the current trend that Hollywood is following of producing half-assed remakes with overly flashy effects: the music is made up more of synthesized drums, strings with ungodly amounts of reverb, and over the top horn lines that without computer editing would sound like shit. Possibly, that would all be topped off with a generic exotic string instrument if the movie takes place somewhere other than in the west. Gone are the days when a composer did their investigation on the music of a certain part of the world, and reflected it in the score, and gone are the days when the orchestration was colorful and creative.
Ultimately, I decided I'm much more effective in the concert setting and can make a much better living producing this kind of music that I am producing now, and I am doing well for myself, every year my situation is improving and I am getting more and more on commission.
Now for the musicians who are protesting:
This is a perfect reflection of how Hollywood is starting to concentrate the winnings to a few select groups within a production. Movie budgets and winnings are higher than ever and yet more and more, movie productions are sending more parts of the productions overseas in order to save every last buck they can, which i have no idea where those go, maybe to give the actors more bonuses? I'm not sure. Musicians of course are among the losers. Let me give you a perspective on what a professional musician asks for. I charge $200-300 to perform for a one hour gig (this can be on piano, organ, percussion, or flute), and I'm considered fairly entry level. A professional, in order to put in the practice that is required and then perform the piece, requires something more like $600 or so per hour, and then add to that the amount of time it would take to record an entire film score. And an orchestra would be at the smallest 35 pieces. This totals somewhere about $63,000 for an orchestra at the lower estimate. These musicians are not being greedy, this is a very modest living they would be making, especially if they live in a city that is as expensive as Los Angeles, and in the grand scheme of things, this is VERY low considering the budgets that some of these new movies command and considering the fact that the music can make or break a movie.
tl;dr:
Bottom line, working in Hollywood is not even close to the glamorous stories you're told; the work environment is horrible, the abuses of power are blatant, the creativity has plummeted in the past few years. And most importantly, the pay is not what you think it is, it's bad, and it's a big reason I left and now am living my dream doing music out in different venues, and it has been the best decision I have ever made. It is sad to see that with the budgets Hollywood commands that it is resorting to hiring musicians from out of the country to keep saving those little extra bucks and screwing over Los Angeles studio musicians. I really don't see how this situation in the article will be helped. I don't see what can possibly be done to bring the studio musician jobs back to the US, and back to Los Angeles specifically, where they SHOULD be.
Journal written originally by
Juniper_Squirrel , displayed here with Juniper's kind permission :3I can only confirm what have been said. Juniper's experience with Los Angeles is a bit different of the way things work in Europe (London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna...) but to sum it up : you're as screwed as your US friend. In Europe, the laws on copyright garantee you a percentage on the incomes a movie makes. But producers are as greedy in Europe as they are in the USA. Either they will force you to abandon your right to a percentage (If you "agree" and sign a contract, they will definitely rob you those rights). The fact is, you will work for peanuts most of the time :
- For a 26mn movie, expect no pay at all. "That will make you more visible, having your name on the credits and such project to add to your resume is already something worth working for" is basically what you will be told about 95% of the time. Directors are powerless on this situation, given their own pay for the movie (when they get paid)
- For a 52mn movie, expect maybe 4000€. Given most studios and productions are located in the capitals (London, Paris, etc...), where life is insanely expensive, expect your pay to vanish in about two month of rent*. You haven't eaten, paid for your car, insurrance, got your licenses for the softwares** and your production devices, etc...
*You could say "I don't need to be on (let's say) Paris to compose. I can do it away and sent the music to the director. Yeah. I though that too. And I am moving to Paris after the current movie I'm working on is finalized.
** I will make a journal about studios and legal issues in most european countries. Most of you (an immense majority) think they can pirate their softwares and make money out of the music they create with this. Well... Nope.
- For a 90mn+ movies, the pay is variable but can go up to 50k€. You think it's a lot? Pay the London Symphonic Orchestra, the Orchestre National de Paris, the Berliner Philharmonik... And see what's left after that
The money generated by the music is estimated by the contract you signed. This fraction of the income is to be divided by 3. The composer (you) gets 1/3, the producer, as "he made the production possible by bringing the money in the first place", gets another 1/3, the editor keeps the last 1/3. Often the producer won't bother hiring an editor that would potentially spread your music on radio, TV or anywhere else. They often get the label of editor to get this 1/3 but won't do the proper job of communication that is expected from a real editor. What does that mean? That means over 100€ you made with your music, you keep 33€, the producers keeps 66€. I haven't talked about taxes yet. PLUS, the music being not spread to TV and radio, you loose all the royalties you could have got. Again, you're screwed.
There is countless of ways to get robbed by the producers. And they know every one of them. There is no friendly, cozy work environnement when you are a film music composer. 95% of the cases, you are the lowest person involved in the creative process. Litterally the lowest. You are nobody, and you're here to bring the 35% of the movie for the least amount of money possible.
"Okay, I can deal with stress and don't need a lot of money to live"
That's forgetting how single minded the producers are. You think you will compose your own music?
Forget about it ! Begginners compose Zimmer-style. Because "that works". Very few of us can actually compose the music they would feel "perfect" on the pictures ; producers want a big, fat sound, like in "The Dark Night". Two chords of horns and some strings staccati, and you're getting hurrays from the producer. Anything a bit creative, new, is considered "risky" and gets rejected if the producer think about his money (trust me, he does!)
No money, low esteem from the producer and the director, and no creativity encouraged (or even tolerated)... The composers' work is really tough for most, sometimes even not allowing to sustain on the job. I advise people who want to work in that industry to prepare themselve before considering to turn their dream into nightmare. Like my friend Juniper said, this is NOT the oasis Hollywood documentaries and DVD/Bluray bonuses display.
TL;DR : For those who don't want to read the whole stuff, here is a one phrase summary
If you have any question on that topic, I'd be glad to answer
karuno
It's not an easy pill to swallow: the good days are gone. You're not going to be the next John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith. They don't want those types anymore; and if you think you'll manage by composing like Hans Zimmer, don't be naive, soon they won't want these types either. They will soon be hiring composers from Macedonia, Hungary, and other countries to save even more bucks, and screw us over.
"Your name on the credits is already a good pay" is the mainstream opinion in the production... It's unbelievable how deep under acceptable the esteem they have for us has fallen.
Took the film scoring extension program at UCLA, fairly cheap and worth it for the contacts you make, but every one of them pounded this very theme into your head - it ain't glamourous. One teacher had this anecdote:
"A former student approached me and told me she was offered a deal of $2000 to score a film, I told her if she thought it was fair compensation for her work, she said 'no I'd pay them $2000 for the privilege of scoring their film'."
...
That's where it's at right now. Don't know if a golden era (or even bronze for that matter) will ever be back but it sure ain't in the near future.
It is all very disappointing to say the least. I have my BA in music and I have done nothing with it. I recently went back to school and got a Master's in a technology field so I can at least find a position that will pay for food and roof over my head.
For all the budding musicians/composers out there: if music is your passion, I'd say go for it! Just PLEASE don't go running blindly down the path thinking you're on your way to fame and fortune. Make sure you know what you're getting in to. Take some business classes. Pay attention to what's going on in the industry. Protect yourself from being taken advantage of!
There are so many talented people out there! We have quite a few right here. Just continue to do what you do, and maybe one day the entertainment industry will come around. But it starts with us standing up for what's fair.
Thanks for listening!
I can not agree more with you on telling people to go for it. We need more musicians in the world, you don't need to necessarily make a living out of it, as some people do music part time while doing something else on the side. The reason I wrote this journal is that I still see people who are in that mindset that they're going to be the next John Williams, and they just need to know that if they cling onto that fantasy, they're in for some painful disappointment.
Thanks for opening up the discussion on this topic. I think it's important for any student, regardless of field, to understand what they are getting into. It's good to have hopes and dreams, just make sure they have a foundation in reality!
I, myself had never any intention to move into LA, as it is practically a huge pain in the ass to move out of Europe in the first place, but to read that the small network of composers doesn't grant the room for "fresh" creativity/composers is really depressing...
It's...saddening, but definitely good to know these things, thanks!
I was asked to do something similar, but I took a lot of liberties because I had something in mind that would have perfectly fit the scene. After listening to the cue, he stated that the music "simply didn't work"
I asked more informations about what he expected and he told me "something more like *starts singing the theme*".
He made me change details on my music again and again until eventually I had no choice but nearly plagiarize the music he put at the beginning.
It was at the extreme limits regarding the european standards about this ; still not please. Eventually he told me he didn't feel the music was right for the scene. A music nearly plagiarized.
Turns out that he was so used to see his movie with the Skyfall track that everything that wasn't said track was not fitting in the movie in his perception.
Every composer will face this situation eventually. Being asked to copy a (rather bland) theme because the director really liked it, to the point he wish it was his own movie's soundtrack... The situation is very frustrating !
Especially if, like I naively did, you trusted the director and didn't sign the contract right away :-P I ended up being asked to restrain any creativity I had and not having a single note of mine on the movie.
So yeah, always be on your guards.
And what do you eventually do with the tracks that are even left unused because of situations like these?
Since I was also responsible of the sound team in this project, I haven't been that spoiled. And next time things will be done differently, especially regarding music