I full agree.
Every race, every culture has their upright citizens, and their trash (usually given a derogative, slur name)
There's white people, then there's why trash
There's black people, then there's you know the word
Mexicans and etc.

I am not using the slurs here but you get what I mean.
I am tired of people acting like ignorant jackasses just because they can.

I am starting to feel like I missed something, or miss interpreted something...

You missed the part where it's a terribly racist rant from someone who complained earlier that people expected them to stop being different.

Being discriminated against just for being a given race or sex, with no other factors involved, is a completely different topic from people putting aside subcultures to form a community.

You can't choose what you're born as, but you can choose how you dress, act and talk, and that is what I'm holding people responsible for.

That has literally nothing to do with racism. Fucking educate yourself, Bunnyta, instead of talking out of your ass because you want to show how offended you are at something you don't even really understand.

In fact, go watch Glory. Listen to what Morgan Freeman says. It'll sound very similar to what I'm saying here.

Yes, yes, it's not racism, it's "culturalism".

You don't actually hate Mexican people, you just hate Mexican people doing Mexican things.

No, he hates mexicans, or any race, doing criminal things, or expressing themselves as criminals.

He seems to dislike a glorification of criminal action. let us run away with your strawman-

wearing green red and white colors, wearing traditionally mexican clothing, devout dedication to family, these are traditional mexican cultural values, of which he has no problem.

Wearing bandoleers in an X pattern, setting, wearing weapons openly, branding oneself with tattoos for a drug cartel are traditional criminal cultural values, of which there is a problem with.

You are asking him to accept q glorification of "street" culture lest he be racist, yet street culture is the most toxic thing to all cultural values, and have been nothing but harmful, especially for the races that practicethem, reguardless of what that race is.

In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE. Srsly, you can buy a shirt and jeans from Wal-Mart for like 20 bucks. Go do it.

in other words, "Stop being of a different culture and just behave like everyone around you."

I'm not a huge fan of Star Trek, but there is one thing they got right. The Federation is made up of tons of species, but they all fly the same ships. They all wear the same uniforms. Even their casual clothes are similar but derived from a blending of various cultures. It's the difference between saying "This is an Officer who happens to be Klingon", and "This is a Klingon Officer". Sure, you go to their quarters and you'll see their culture...but it's not in your face. It's not flaunted in public. This is how you achieve an end to racial prejudice.

in other words, "I'm ok with different cultures as long as they're not doing their cultural things openly."

For anyone who would read this and bitch about how I'm telling them to "give up their culture" when they're in public, well...you're right! You're not Mexican! You're not African! You're not South American! You're not Canadian or Columbian or Jamaican or Indian or Israeli or Pakistani or Vietnamese or Japanese! YOU. ARE. A. UNITED. STATES. CITIZEN.

in other words, "I'm not telling you to give up your cultural identity, i'm telling you to give up your cultural identity."

--

Yeah he's pretty racist once you've actually read *all* the things he wrote instead of focusing on a side note of her argument.

He's basically saying that instead of him doing a little effort to quit being such a racist, other people of different culture should just shove it up their arse and quit being different, and that's how we're going to slove prejudice. Which is hilarious (I mean, if it wasn't racist), considering a while ago he was ranting about how *other people* are terrible because they don't accept him as intersexed. Pot, meet kettle.

Actually, I'm not asking anything from him, I'm just pointing him out as the racist bigot that he is.

Are we to discard him and all he has said for his allusions to cultural homogamy?

And while we're at it, Is cultural homogamy "racist" at all? It is certainly a thing I disagree with, and most of what I have disagreed with in his post, however, cultural homogamy is certainly not racist. It is not a value that seeks to demean, reduce, harm, or belittle any individual or cultural subset. it is not bigoted, hateful, or suggesting superiority of any color of the rainbow to pour all the colors into a single cup, But I would find that resulting color ugly, unappealing, and void if the vividness that the colors once had.

In discussion of seeking to better ourselves, and all of the world, it is important to avoid making things out to be an Us vs Them issue. In attacking and being on the offensive, we cripple ourselves and our ability to improve this beautiful planet and all of it's diverse life. And to do that, we must be open to discussion, we must be willing to educate, and be willing to learn a wide variety of viewpoints.

Right, because basically saying "if you're not a good god fearing american wearing blue jeans and white shirts, you don't belong here, and if you want to belong here you need to shove your different culture all the way up your arse because I can't be bothered to deal with differences" is not racist at all. Nope. It's 'culturalist' aka I-swear-i'm-not-racist

we must be willing to educate, and be willing to learn a wide variety of viewpoints.

Some viewpoints aren't worth learning, particularly when they're racist.

I see. You are unwilling to learn, or teach. Unless you find your tunnel vision and repeating of previously used words a method of teaching, in which case it may be productive to re-evaluate your methods for bettering others.

I hope you find joy and satisfaction in your chosen path.

Oh, there is a deep misunderstanding here, I think.

I'm not here to teach you how to be a decent human being. This is something your parents should have done, and they obviously failed.

I'm here to point out the racist peanut gallery and their hilariously bad hypocrisy and shitty argument.

And laugh at it.

Then you support agitation in a selfish pursuit of entertainment?

An argument can only be made shitty by addressing and eliminating the points raised in an argument. To see an example of such a discussion, you need only scroll lower. (It should be fair to say that I disagree with nearly all of his journal.)

I find no fault in your desire to find personal entertainment, but please select your words with care! Until an argument is made, you cannot give an opinion on an argument, or it's merits.

The implication of my decency comes from someone who has earnestly admitted they have no desire to improve lives and instead wish to find entertainment for themselves. Our differing cultural values makes it difficult for me to give credibility to your implication.

No, I support calling out racism.

And also laughing at their shitty arguments and justifications for being a terrible human being.

If there's a thing that never happens, it's people changing their worldviews over an internet argument. So what I do is call them out as the bigoted racists that they are and then laugh at them.

Flynn's arguments are crystal clear, she wrote a lengthy journal exposing herself as the racist that she is, she also made lengthy replies to people who called her out a racist and dug her racist hole further. There is nothing of value to learn here.

You are right, we have different cultural values. For example, I don't defend racism on the ground that every idea is worth something.

You're a stubborn one, aren't you? You're not really worth a full reply, so I'm just going to leave it a that, and point out that you seem to refuse to compromise on literally anything, which is not how one goes about interacting with people. Either stop being an SJW or don't breed, we don't need you in the gene pool.

"you seem to refuse to compromise"

I don't compromise with racists.

Particularly racists who basically tell other people to "just stop being minorities and we'll stop being prejudiced"

redisdead is all like http://tanuki.kitsunet.net/HowToSJW.gif

http://tanuki.kitsunet.net/HowToSJW.gif

If being a SJW means being a decent human being who doesn't tolerate racism, I don't mind being a SJW.

It's funny how racists just flail their arms around shouting "SJW! SJW!" at everyone who calls out their racism as some sort of victorious last stand after their shitty arguments have been destroyed by anyone with at least two braincells to rub together.

It is a label you earn for making baseless accusations of a terrible thing to all who simply disagree with you, or even simply your methods.
It is a label you earn from many sources, the label you choose to hand out haphazardly bearing only your source.

You have made zero argument. You have chosen only to repeat a single word loudly.

However, I have come to understand your position. Because of your chosen peergroup, you must keep up appearances. If you appear soft in any way, those who have embraced you as friend, whom have appeared to fully accept all the things you present yourself as, will quickly turn on you, ridicule you and lambaste you with shame. You have become terrified of being outcast from your group of friends, as this group has caused you to push away from, and alienate other communities.

I have seen, and even experienced, the patterns you have fallen under. You will ether pull away from that Toxic group of your own accord, or you will make a critical error, and be branded yourself a bigot/racist by this group, and be made outcast.

And although you may discard my words, and though you may laugh and ridicule me now,
Know that when all have turned you away, I will welcome you openly without demand or condition.

"It is a label you earn for making baseless accusations of a terrible thing to all who simply disagree with you"

Calling someone who wrote that minorities should stop being different if they don't want to be discriminated against a racist is not a "baseless" accusation.

Calling everyone who defends a racist's words a racist is not a "baseless" accusation either.

"You have made zero argument. You have chosen only to repeat a single word loudly."

See, that's where you are mistaken. I made an argument. My argument is that Flynn is racist, my proof is the words she's written all over this journal and the comments. You're just buttmad because I'm not writing lengthy essays about why I think it's racist.

The truth is that I don't need to write lengthy essays about why I think saying things like "if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE. Srsly, you can buy a shirt and jeans from Wal-Mart for like 20 bucks. Go do it." is racist, because if you can't see how racist this is, then you're racist too.

"Because of your chosen peergroup, you must keep up appearances. If you appear soft in any way, those who have embraced you as friend, whom have appeared to fully accept all the things you present yourself as, will quickly turn on you, ridicule you and lambaste you with shame. You have become terrified of being outcast from your group of friends, as this group has caused you to push away from, and alienate other communities."

Another bunch of mistakes. You think I do this to be accepted by my friends. Your first mistake is that thinking I need the approval of my friends to begin with. I don't. And I'll tell you why: If you're a racist, you're not my friend.

Another mistake is that you think that I'm afraid people will laugh at me if I don't take a strong stance against racism. I don't do this because i'm afraid people will laugh at me. I do this because racism is shitty and needs to be pointed out wherever and whenever it needs to be pointed out. I do this because I'm a decent human being who doesn't tolerate racism.

And the final mistake in this statement is that I alienated and pushed away the racist "community" because of peer pressure. I didn't. I pushed away and alienated racists because racists are terrible people I don't want to associate with. I don't need a group of people to tell me racism is bad to hate racism. I hate racism because racism is bad. I came to this conclusion by my own accord using my own critical thinking. I could detail the entire process that led me to believe we'd be better off as Humans without racism but it'd probably be wasted on someone racist like you.

" You will ether pull away from that Toxic group of your own accord"

This mistake in your comment stems from your initial, wrong hypothesis that everything I do, I do it because of peer pressure, so I'll let that one slip.

See, your main error here is thinking that to hate racism, you need to be a good little sheep with no will. Well, you are wrong. I hate racism, yet I am a strong willed, opiniated, bitchy cuntface who isn't afraid to call a spade a fucking spade, even if it pisses off some of my friends.

TL;DR You are so wrong it's not even funny. Stop making assumptions, you're making an ass out of yourself.

It's "she" by the way, but thank you! Thank you finally! After the ten billion comments of people accusing me of racism, someone finally points out that homogamy isn't racism! In fact, it's kind of the direct opposite of racism - regardless of being desirable or not - because it's all about race not being important.

But race IS important. It's a history, a struggle, a story. Because race IS important, Homogamy won't work.

It is not a form of hate to ask for a melting pot, but the one who asks for the melting pot does not thing of how the ingredients feel about melting into a pot that is not ultimately owned by one of their own.

Respect has to go both ways, indeed.

Why don't you start showing some?

Oh wait, no, when you mean "both ways" you don't actually mean it like that. Nevermind.

I never talked about appropriation, but keep fighting the good racist fight.

It's funny when racists get on their high horses and call other people SJWs as soon as someone points out their terrible world views.

Because, you know, there's no rampant sexism and objectification and rape in the US culture either. No sir. It's all peaches and roses. It's like motes and eyes and unseen beams all over the place.

This reply makes no sense in this context

The thing is though, I'm not advocating messing with anybody's culture.

I'm just pointing out your racist hypocrisy.

which is why you reply doesn't make any sense

Haha right. Keep arguing about extremes, it totally doesn't make you sound like you're grasping at every possible straws to justify your blatant racism.

Yes, that is exactly what this entire argument is about. You 1) didn't chuck the goalposts in outer space and 2) aren't building strawmen all over the place.

This is not about the Mexican culture being this or that, it's about Flynn basically telling Mexicans to quit being Mexicans if they don't want people to be prejudiced against them. Which is pretty much victim blaming and racist.

You know, because making prejudiced people shove it and learn to live together doesn't make more sense, particularly since Flynn is actually prejudiced.

Bro, it's not just mexicans dressing as thugs. You have to read the whole journal. I know it's hard, there's many words, but please keep trying until you figured them all out. Then we'll talk.

Yeah, people tend to be confused when you move the goalposts several times.

Yes, that's exactly what "moving the goalposts" mean. Don't educate yourself.

As I said, don't educate yourself.

Of course not.

Some people, though, recognize that knowledge is a fantastic tool and take it upon themselves to learn new things.

Some people also recognize that you're a tool.

You missed the part where Bunnyta confuses the topic of people coming together and leaving behind superficial differences to become a community, and actual civil rights issues for someone just being a given race or sex.

And by "leaving superficial differences behind", Flynn actually means "they should stop being themselves and become good god fearing Americans, wearing blue jeans and white shirts"

Who here is talking about MS13 and American gang signals? Why do people focus on this irrelevant details when Flynn is basically telling every fucking minority out there to shut the fuck up and get in line?

Oh wait, that's because you're nothing but a bunch of racists and need to justify your hate of anything different. Nevermind, carry on, I heard raci- oh, sorry, culturalism is OK.

Indeed. I enjoy the company of anyone that acts and behaves like a normal person, someone who is mature at least. Instead of someone who doesn't care that they act like a walking, belligerent stereotype, a living breathing example of everything that their people are trying so desperately hard to distance themselves from. These sorts of individuals really annoy the piss out of me.

Thank you so much. -__-

This is just about the only reply I've gotten to such a simple and basic concept as this that didn't require a minimum of three paragraphs of text because omg why is this such a complicated hotbutton topic? You'd think 95% of the people replying to this actually want stereotypes.

Well, I guess what they're talking about is being allowed to express one's self, to maintain individuality. Sure, individuality is one thing, but it boils down to association and emotional response. Prejudice will always exist until the source of that fear is non-existent.

Like, you know thugs and other social misfits tend to dress in such a manner, and one is walking right towards you down the sidewalk, late at night, with no one else out on the streets. Now, you know that fact, but also that not everyone who dresses like this is a potential criminal either, problem is, you cannot confirm either without social interaction. As he gets closer, that uncertainty turns into fear, because you don't know if he is just passing by or is coming to rob you, and you know these kinds of folks aren't afraid to do it in broad daylight either, night time is certainly no exception either. Adrenaline pumps and your basic survival instincts are on standby mode.

It isn't racism, it is simply fear/caution, basic emotions stemmed from statistics and simple societal facts, everyone feels this, whether they want to admit it or not. Until the source of the prejudice is removed from the equation, good and harmless people will continue to feel some form of undeserved prejudice or another. Don't blame those who are scared and possibly misunderstanding, blame those who are out there setting a bad example for those who don't mean any harm.

Guess I went on and made a wall of text there. You jinxed it. xP

"I was wearing my sagged pants, jersey, ripped sneakers and gold chain yesterday, talkin' shit to my crew, and this white motherfucker dared to call me the n-word!"
"I put on that cute dress the other day, you know the one that comes up just a half inch over my nipples, and all these guys just stared at my tits! Men are disgusting."
"Yeah I took a shotgun to my neighbor's mailbox, they called me a redneck! Claim I parked my trailer on their property and left beer bottles everywhere. Assholes."
"What do you mean I am hard to understand? I am from India! We are better than you. You are too polite. Now please do the needful before I smack a bitch."
"Mm, sorry, I don't have time for you. Golf is at 3 sharp, then I have a board meeting. Maybe if you were my class of people...but we both know you're not."
"Like omg! I wore my babydoll and shorties today, and this macho guy called me a faggot. Can you believe that? I only made out with my bff right in front of him, geez..."

FUCK. ALL. THESE. PEOPLE. That's what I'm saying. :D

(bonus points if you read all of these to yourself in the appropriate voices, lol)

I live in Scotland, but was born in England, I am still English and I class myself as British. I am worried about what will happen next month for this referendum. I am worried about the anti-English groups. I am more worried about what would happen if Scotland became independent, would I have to give up my heritage to suit others?
Would I have to adopt another more alien culture just to fit in?
These are things that concern me.
I still remember back when I first moved up to Scotland and the amount of bulling I got for just being English.
Sadly its easier said than done, people will always have views about others, be it their upbringing or what they see and hear. How many kids in the 1950s and 60s do you think had screwed up views on black people because it’s what their parents or grandparents have said. We are slowly changing but in small steps as there are many who still don’t realise we are in the 21st century not the 18th.
We can someday reach a level of unity like that in Star Trek but it will be a long way off.

Your post is deep.

People do look for convenient ways to 'other' their fellow citizens. It is part of finding identity. It's sad about the bullying you received for simply being a neighbor.

The sad thing is a lot of people are full of shit.

But the upshot is that things are getting better.

If you've committed to live in Scotland in the long term (and not just a temporary thing), then you're Scottish. Not British. You're a Scot of British origins.

My entire family was British on my mother's side, while my dad was of mixed Irish and Native American descent. None of that makes me anything other than an American. I am American. That is my first, last and only descriptor that matters as far as that goes. I dress and talk like a citizen of the US.

If I was going to move to Japan on a permanent basis, then I would be Japanese. I would learn the language, and adopt the culture.

This the balance between conformity and choice. You are free to live in any country you like, but once you make that choice, you are a part of that culture. Noone is ever going to have a better life by waving their differences in people's faces, and it is literally fundamental to nature for that to be unacceptable (or at least drawing unwanted attention). That's the gist of this journal.

It's also okay - and actually encouraged - to be a Scottish person saying "you know, we really shouldn't hate the British for shit their ancestors did". :)

Actuarly Flynn no Im not Scottish, beacuse Scotland, England, Walse and N Ireland are part of the British Isles, and the people are classed as British Citizens.
I am English by brith, and a Scottish resident but overall I am classed as a British Citizen. If I was living in the US, then I would class my self as a US Citizen of British origon.

So basically, because of his attire, the 'ghetto' shirt (often which is a T-shirt that you say is American as apple pie), the gold chain, the sagging pants, all of which are items originating from America - the hypothetical person wearing that ceases to be considered an American.

And we should just treat this person any old kind of way because, well, not as many people dress like them. Even the example you give isn't even all that uncommon. I guess it's just like how we will treat poor people in the Appalachians, right?

I fucking love this country. The American monoculture, one of the newest that exists, is cobbled together from numerous immigrant cultures and customs. The English language itself (of which 'Americans speak a dialect') is itself populated by numerous loan words from other languages. You ever wonder why English, despite being a Germanic language, has so many Latin-root words in it? Most of what we call "American" originates from elsewhere especially as we displaced the tribes that were here beforehand. And by we, I mean whomever gets to decide what's 'odd,' because clearly that's not me. I'm born in the USA but automatically 'othered.'

First of all, if wearing a T-shirt and jeans is iconic and anyone can wear it to be called an American, why do so many dress codes (school or corporate) forbid it? Removing individuality in dress does nothing to address inequality of any type, because the whole point of inequality is that you don't consider the people intrinsically worth as much as you. Putting a woman in a T-shirt and jeans doesn't stop people from saying 'oh women have too much power. Oh women are whiny. Oh women are weak and can't handle stuff like men.'

So this just completes the circle for me of "fuck this culture," a culture that had only valued my ancestors even 3 generations ago (My family is Southern in origin) as cheap or slave labor.

After all I normally dress in business-attire, slacks, shirt, often with a tie, a dapper hat. For this, I don't get regarded as "Seth." I get regarded as "the whitest black guy here." So now I also know that if I were to wear a T-shirt and jeans lower than what some people somewhere feel is acceptable, I also don't get to be counted as a person. I get friends that routinely share with me ethnic or racial jokes about other groups but it's "OK" because I'm not one of the groups. And if I say, "hey, not cool," what'll the response be? "You're so sensitive!" "Laugh a little!" "You're so PC"

Yeah you heard it right. I conform, I speak 'proper' American English without an accent, I dress in culturally prescribed attire.

AND I AM STILL CONSIDERED AN 'OTHER.'

Guess why that is Flynn? It's because I can't bleach this goddamn melanin out of my skin! I can't get plastic surgery to remove my African features; my wide nose, my larger-than Caucasian lips. I can't fucking get rid of them! So it doesn't matter what the fuck I do, what I dress like! Nobody sees my education, they just see another black man! But most of all, I can't change the attitudes of others, others who feel like ethnic humor is funny, who feel like they can just make sweeping pronouncements of personalities of a race or ethnicity just because.

You're yet ANOTHER person I know who says things like this. So what's one more? I wish I could get rid of everything that makes me an 'other' in this fucking broken society that says that no matter what the fuck you do, you're still a black. It's always going to be the fault of the minority for whatever happens to them. You just happened to be in the wrong place. Senecas? Seminoles? You just weren't strong enough. We got your land. Now conform. Blacks? Come the fuck over and pick this cotton, some of you might like it. Oh wait, well that's all over so fuck you. Mexican? Okay I know that you were living here before but now this is the United States so fuck you. And 'speak English' as we mock you even as so many of our placenames are in Spanish. Neither language originates here but who cares about consistency?

I want your luxury. I want the luxury of being able to write a journal like this, except that I probably wouldn't write it because I teach and I live in a city built by immigrants that contributed part of their culture to build the America we know.

But you show me that it is a pipe dream. No matter how much I conform I will be 'othered,' I will be subject to casual bigotry and nativism from friends for the rest of my life. So I guess it changes nothing really. It's not like I keep score. After all I'm not a "PC" guy. I just happen to be a minority that sits and takes it when people just say any old thing.

The real problem I'm getting at here is that the US was founded on the idea of a melting pot. I mean, imagine for a moment a fondue. Well, it's got a bunch of cheeses in it, and some seasoning, maybe some milk, and some other stuff. Could you look at a fondue and tell me where the individual cheeses are? Could you pick up a spoon and eat just one of those cheeses? Of course not. This is because all those ingredients have blended together into something new. It's not any one cheese or spice or anything else that I listed...it's fondue.

Essentially, the goal of America should be to actually make that fondue. Noone should be focusing on what race someone is. Or what creed. Or what gender. Those things shouldn't be the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and twentieth thoughts you have about someone. That's what my journal is about. Instead of propagating a bunch of subcultures that only emphasize how different people are, stop driving that wedge. We need to think about our similarities, not our differences.

Honestly, I'm not sure what your point is here. If you're not going around deliberately trying to stick out like a sore thumb, then noone has the right to treat you differently, and if they do then they're wrong. Yes, that certainly needs to end once and for all. That's literally what I'm fighting for, and the entire point of this journal. By the same coin, noone should be making fun of you because you're trying to be an ordinary American. America has it's own evolved style of dress, from tees and jeans to business suits to swimwear and so forth. It also has it's own dialect of English, which has changed so much and incorporated pieces of other languages to the point where it kind of is it's own language. Americanese, as I like to call it.

People make jokes about it a lot, but the US has actually managed to evolve such a thing as dressing American. Talking American. It took a long freaking time, and there's still a lot of bugs to work out (after all, while civil rights issues have been mostly ironed out on paper, it's a whole different story in practice. We're still trying to achieve that melting pot), but the US is finally growing a unified cultural identity.

It's fragile, and still developing, but it's there. I've seen it for myself. Different races, sexes and creeds all shopping in the same stores, having the same conversations, playing the same games, being fans of the same things...without anyone having to point out what anyone else is. I feel we're really close to the cusp of something amazing. Something better.

I went to a furcon this year. There were people of all different ethnicities...white, black, hispanic and asian. There were people of all different genders/sexes...male, female, trans and intersex. AND NOONE CARED. Noone segregated into groups. Nooone refused to talk to anyone, or avoided anyone (well, y'know, except for the creepers...but noone likes a skeevy person). My point is, it didn't matter what anyone was, because everyone was part of the same group. All on the same page. All equal.

I say that when I see other Americans, I don't see their color or gender or lineage or anything else. I just see people, because all those people are forming a new, unified culture. There's no focus on how different everyone is because of what they are, only the uniqueness of still being individuals.

How is anything I've said here bad? You make it sound like I'm crushing some dream...a dream of what, exactly? Continuing to focus on differences?

I'm intersex. Do you know what that means? That means I don't actually exist under US law. At any time, the government can take away the child of an intersex person, annul their marriage, perform non-consensual surgical alternations, pretty much anything that involves swapping us between "male" and "female" because that's all the law allows for, but we're genetically both. These things I've listed have already happened. And not in some history book or many decades ago...these things happened in the last few years, and still are today.

How much easier would my life be if male and female was no longer an issue? If sex didn't matter beyond just keeping records?

How much easier would your life be if the same was true for you, except with race?

That's what this is about.

I agree with you...in one sense, about the 'melting pot.' But it is more of an ideal rather than practice, and kind of a foolhardy ideal. We have indeed lifted items wholesale from other cultures. But at the same time, we still allow other people to bring and practice their cultures here because of our constitutional right of freedom of association. We allow people to practice their cultures of origin here (at least if they're the 'right' cultures) because it makes us richer as a society. As an example, virtually our entire culinary palate originates from elsewhere.

But I digress. It would be very nice if we could have a society where we don't focus on race. I apparently seem to be able to do this as I don't categorize my friends by race, gender or orientation. But for some reason I can't get the same courtesy. That's why when I get to go to a furcon in the past couple weeks, I get someone not only enumerating the number of 'black' people there, sharing this with me, then they tell me, "You know, some of them say you're the whitest black guy here." So apparently we can't have that nice thing.

My point is that when it comes to people like me, dressing, 'talking' as 'proper' American, it all does not matter. My experiences show it doesn't matter, because the thing that makes me different cannot be taken off or hidden. That's why, despite my dress and diction, people feel free to say things like that to me.

I'm going to skip ahead and say that it is criminal that you do not legally exist for being intersex. That is something I seek to change in this culture. It's part of outdated sexual and gender morés that needed changing last century.

I think it would be great if gender and sex did not matter. Unfortunately biology (vis-a-vis childbirth/childrearing) leaves that playing field uneven.

Now let's circle back. I see people too. As mentioned before, I don't pack my friends into little categories. "Why this is my Chinese friend!" "Why this is my transgender friend!" "Oh my goodness, you should meet my Liberian friend!" We should all see people, because, well, that's basic decency! I think it's very nice and basically decent to actually accept people no matter their dress or appearance, and refer to them as people. You know, like, using their name and stuff.

But a few other people can't see me, hence the racial and ethnic comments towards me. I don't get to be an individual because many of them see my skin color first.

Now here's where I especially lost it in your original post. Mind you I was right with you when it looked like you were going to talk about how silly sagging (a fashion fad akin to bell bottoms, hair-hopping, zoot suits, what have you) was. Then I got to the middle portion, I got hurt. And then I got angry towards the end.

The Federation is made up of tons of species, but they all fly the same ships. They all wear the same uniforms. Even their casual clothes are similar but derived from a blending of various cultures. It's the difference between saying "This is an Officer who happens to be Klingon", and "This is a Klingon Officer". Sure, you go to their quarters and you'll see their culture...but it's not in your face. It's not flaunted in public. This is how you achieve an end to racial prejudice.

I want to point out that this hurt me deeply, because it is a bigoted thing to say, and it's actually the exact same language that's used to justify things like beating Sioux students in 'Indian Schools' for speaking their native language. It is used to justify shoving gay people into the closet. But even more so, it minimizes the experiences of people like me. There are no quarters in which I can go to hide my brown skin, as I demonstrated above. Again, I have never, ever in my life sagged or worn that attire you find objectionable. Anyone who sees me at a convention knows that I always dress in shirt and tie, with a dapper hat and nice shoes.

I don't get considered an "American." I don't get to be called "Seth" by a number of folks. I am considered, at best, a 'black guy.' Other people of minority groups are treated the same way, even as things get better.

This is why I am grateful for my friends who do not do this. This journal really hurt me a lot, because it comes on the heels of more minimization like this. I guess I finally got tired of just having it come into my inbox from friends. It hurts a lot from people I consider friends. I can ignore it from random people online. But it's hard to ignore from friends.

Because consider the last line:
You're not Mexican! You're not African! You're not South American! You're not Canadian or Columbian or Jamaican or Indian or Israeli or Pakistani or Vietnamese or Japanese! YOU. ARE. A. UNITED. STATES. CITIZEN.

Many people of ethnic and racial minorities born in the USA still spend an inordinate amount of time having to justify their existence, to justify that they actually are an American. We have idiot pundits that refer to Hawaii as some otherworldly place, for goodness' sake.

The United States, however, is made richer (both figuratively and literally) by these other cultures. That's why a number of cultures that didn't make it into your list still have cultural festivals. Numerous cities and towns in the United States were formed under the auspices of these cultures. If you are ever to come to my city, you may find a Polish Festival (Dyngus Day), an Italian heritage festival, an Irish festival, and a Juneteenth celebration (it commemorates the Emancipation Proclamation). All of these people are Americans yet they still celebrate the cultures of their ancestors. And that's what being American (of the USA) is all about.

Okay, now I see. Unfortunately, you're wrong about something very important, and it's why I couldn't understand your anger or your objections.

What I'm talking about isn't something you can just label as "bigotry", like it's just some social issue to be dealt with. We're talking about something fundamental to the entire scope of nature. Not just humans, we're talking from the mightiest wild cat to the lowliest dormouse. That truth is simple:

Different is bad.

Nothing you, or I, or anyone in ten billion years of this planet is going to say or do will ever change that fact. It is intrinsic. It is fundamental. Now, I'm not saying it isn't unfortunate. I'm not saying it doesn't suck. I'm saying that's what is. It always has been, and I don't see that ever changing.

The only way you can end prejudice of any kind, anywhere, is to de-emphasise differences and emphasize similarities. Yes, I am talking about a certain amount of conformity, but that's the only way this works. However, since we're a planet of many countries, there's also choice. You can choose, but then you're going to have to conform at least for the most part, or else there's consequences.

That's just life. :/

Ironically, after debating this topic, I understand why Talley was rejected by hir people. It sucks, but...that's nature.

I just want this to stand out on its own, so I'm going to say this again.

I already conform culturally in my manner of dress and my speech. At all times.

However, my skin color and facial features, which I cannot change, are a difference which people keep pointing out and using against me.

So under the premise of your original post, it's my fault because I was born this way. I wasn't born with fair skin and an acceptable hair color and texture. I wasn't born with European features.

To just say "Different is bad" is glib and counters the point of you 'dressing down' the sagging black person because the black person is already considered different. As I pointed out several times, it has not mattered one whit what I dress like because I get demeaned either way under the dominant cultural framework. Therefore, it does not matter whether or not the exemplar man sags or not; he is automatically 'othered' by way of his immutable skin and features.

I refuse to believe that humans universally believe "different is bad," because if they did, there wouldn't be multiracial people. Nothing in history, with all of the technology transfer, syncretism and cultural convergences that occur, suggests that humans believe that "different is bad." In fact, we are by and large gregarious creatures, which is why we tend to live in settlements. Just look at the stats!

But even closer to this discussion, it is impossible that humans would intrinsically believe "different is bad" because then I, as a black man, would not have hazel eyes. I, as a black man, would not have partnered with someone who happened to be of a different racial category. If "different were bad" we'd all be inbred because we would instinctively fear those not of our family group. It makes evolutionary sense to meet and mingle with different groups of people, and that is indeed what has happened throughout human history.

So no, I reject that proposition vehemently.

And if this was all true, there would have been no Hitler. Cause humanity would have wiped out itself till there was only ONE race standing long before Hitler was ever born. No Crusades or Jihads, cause everyone wiped out the non-believers of what ever religion happen to win.

Damn, come to think of it, different is bad.......wow, if this was true...the human race should have been extinct long ago.

*sighs*

You're missing the point hun.

Yes, I read that you said you dress and act like any other American, and I also said that if people still judge you on your skin then that's wrong...but I also admitted that common ground isn't perfect. It's just the best option there is. I said:

1. That the idea of "different is bad" is fundamental to nature.
2. That people are by nature different.
3. That removing differences is the best way to end prejudice.

While these may seem contradictory, they're not. You'll never eliminate the majority of people noticing differences. That's never going to happen. But what you can do is minimize how much they react to the differences by removing as many as possible while introducing common ground.

The only other option is - as much as I hate to crush all the idealists replying to this journal - a pipe dream. People will never stop noticing and reacting to differences, but people can choose to be less different from the people around them, at least superficially. We can all change the way we dress, the way we talk, and the way we act. Anything beyond that is what people will just have to deal with.

I'm pretty sure you'd agree with me that you going around dressing like a street thug would not improve your life. In fact, it'd probably make it a lot worse. Hell, I get teased for my big British teeth and nose, or some people skeeve and creep on me because "omg a real herm!". Or I don't get a job because someone judged me for being a housewife, 'cause obviously we're all lazy TV watchers. Yeah, you and I and a million other people get judged on what we are sometimes...but it could be a lot worse.

Totally, things can always be worse.

Look, I get your point about 'minimizing differences' to cause trouble, except that the reason I'm so vehement about this is that my minimized difference doesn't stop people, even friends, from saying and doing out-of-line things. And here's yet another reason why I am going to reject the "difference is bad" proposition.

One has to make a conscious choice to do bigoted things.

We humans are sapient; we can make choices in how we act. We don't automatically shy away from humans like a wild animal would. We observe this readily in children, whom freely play with one another. They are taught by their parents or other family members to be bigoted towards those different from them. That line from South Pacific is apt; you have to be taught to hate. Adults are the ones that teach their children to do things like discriminate against those of different orientations.

By putting responsibility upon the offended instead of the offender, it is in effect endorsing their behavior. I want you to realize that simply wearing a T-shirt and non-sagged jeans would make me a 'street thug' under your example. Why shouldn't I be able to wear that without people harrassing me if that's what I'm comfortable with? What if I'm actually going out to a park or something and going to engage in recreation? Under that framework it's your fault for having teeth and nose that morons tease you about. It's your fault for not being cisgendered so that people can see you as a fetish. It'd be your fault for being a housewife because these people just can't help themselves and it's making them say nasty things.

And look, it's fine when people judge, whatever. But then to share that judgment and be disrespectful? That's definitely a choice. I believe that because of the large number of good people I know, that we don't have to excuse people saying nasty things, because they are making a conscious choice to be pointlessly nasty to people different to them. I know that it's possible to not be an asshole to people and demean them for things they can't change, because I don't do that. I have a wide palette of jokes and statements. None of them include bigoted statements. And it's not even anything that needs to be trumpeted; it shouldn't need to be said because it's a baseline of being a decent person. Instead of pressuring people to suppress their natural differences, I think we should be critical of xenophobic bigots because they're actually anti-human, they're holding us back from progress, and honestly, xenophobia is the root cause of many of our social ills.

Responsibility goes to both parties. Both sides have to make efforts. Saying "people should be able to dress and act however they want" is contrary to social harmony. That doesn't create freedom or equality, it just creates conflict. On the other hand, when people are actually making an effort to be a part of that society, the other side needs to suck it up and put aside their issues.

Freedom has to be tempered with responsibility, and equality requires standing on the same ground. If everyone just goes around fortifying in their subcultures and their heritages, what you'll get is segregation. If someone makes it clear that they stand apart, then they will stand apart.

Yes, my problems would be my fault if I went to a job interview dressed like a housewife stereotype, or if I raised the British flag and spoke in a cockney accent noone could understand, or if I tried to make people feel guilty for being "privileged" male or female. That would put it all on me, and I would deserve my life sucking. But I never use those things to flaunt myself or guilt others. I practice what I preach, always.

I'm being a civil American living on common ground with everyone else around me, and the only thing I'm asking of others is to do the same.

The whole idea that someone has to conform to a certain standards completely undermines the idea of "freedom" doesn't it? Alright, so me, anyone who has heard me talk knows I talk with a "rez" accent (Indian Reservation). This is just how everyone around me talked growing up. I didn't hear a "typical" American accent if it wasn't on TV. I just talk this way without even thinking about it. If everyone understands me then what is the big deal? Yet some people, mostly in Arizona and New Mexico, take issue with it. But I'm under no obligation to force myself to change the way I speak. To them the way I speak is "dirty" or "broken", but that's THEIR problem, not mine. They have the problem with how I speak, not me with how they speak.

So my short answer is, the problem is with you and people like you who want everyone to fit a boring, homogenous standard, not people who don't conform to your arbitrary standards that only originate from your prejudices. No black person is asking you to "act black" and I'm not here asking you to "act Native" so on the inverse you don't get to write that rule and ask us to act "traditional American" or anything else. Furthermore the only traditional way of this land is ours, Native peoples' ways; everything else is foreign.

-Juniper 'Stands Firm'

My problem with people like you is that idealists don't understand that "different is bad" is fundamental to nature, and no amount of positive thinking or hope is going to change that. It's just what is. It's been true though all of human history and throughout the animal kingdom...as the default rule, mind you. Now, there are exceptions to every rule, but a few exceptions aren't going to change the fact that emphasizing your differences will invariably make your life harder because the people are definitely going to judge you for it. Removing superficial differences such as dress, speech and mannerisms reduces that "definitely" to just a "maybe", to where it becomes the exception instead of the rule.

What is "American" now came about through the influence and incorporation of tons of cultures and languages, exactly as America was intended to do. Take a bunch of bunch of wildly different stuff --> make new stuff that becomes uniquely American. The reason everyone who lives in the US should be on board with this is because we all helped make it. It is a new culture born from many old cultures.

What I love most is how many people tried to label this as "conformist" or "bigotry" or "nationalism". Like this is some debate. This is not a debate. This is fact. This is the entirety of human history. Nut, it just proves to me that people are more interested in having someone to blame than dealing with the ugly truth that life sucks and it's not fair.

There's way too much "idealism" in your posts for you to come and tell me I'm idealist. As if our problems would REALLY largely remove a lot of societal problems and ignoring a lot of historical socio-political-economical factors that got us to this point. Ignoring the fact that if I dressed the same exact way each day, my skin is still going to be brown and my hair black. You also have to stop pretending as if the idea of "American" is somehow anything near an "ideal" society and culture as if it was carefully planned and as close as possible to perfect. From its very inception it was a very fearful, xenophobic society; mass murdering or enslaving anything different. THAT is real American heritage. It has always been that way. Not exactly a "standard" to live by, wouldn't you say?

You're also so insistent on this whole "being different is bad" that you're ignoring the fact tensions have gotten better through education and dialogue. While things are still awful for many, ethnic minorities are not being as openly as murdered on the streets and enjoying success, many like myself without giving up our culture. I still have my rez accent, I still am out there in ceremony, dancing, singing, etc, and yet I also have a good career. LGBT people have also gotten many more allies and have gained a large amount of acceptance where it used to be that anything remotely diverging from being straight was sexual deviance and a mental problem. Look how far we've come through informing. There will always be tensions, but the solution is not conformism, it's education and dialogue. This isn't an experiment, this actually works! It has throughout history. Look at all the major centers of knowledge and commerce and going back for thousands of years even, you'll see that people of different customs, languages, creeds, and appearances came together for the sake of knowledge. So maybe what you're really afraid of is that this false Americanism that you have in your mind is going to eventually disappear. And it goes back to my original point. The people with the problem are people like you who are deathly afraid of anything different. It's a plague mentality that is the cause of so many of the world's conflicts. You may think that just because you think so firmly this way that everyone else thinks this way, but no we don't. You just need to get out of your bubble. Just like there are those who look at me differently because of the color of my skin and my facial features, there are also many people that respect me for who I am and how I am. Those people were people who were able to let go of their pride and look past their prejudices (and for those who didn't already have a lot of prides and prejudices, it was easy for them to see me as a human being). These are people who took the time to speak to me, and find out that I laugh, cry, dance, and feel like they do. You need to stop pretending like there isn't anything you can learn from people like us. Don't set your life up to be angry, bitter, and miserable at all that is different to your standards. Their conformity won't be pleasing to you anyway. With your mentality, you will just look for the next thing to complain about from people like me.

-Juniper 'Stands Firm'

That was brilliantly written. You summed up my feelings so succinctly and eloquently that I have nothing to add but my support. Thank you.

I do not want to live in a world where I am free to be myself but my friends and family are not. I do not want conformity. I want diversity and to see other people's cultures. Our differences are not insults but compliments to one another.

Thank you for this. :)

CONFORM OR FACE INSTITUTIONALIZED OPPRESSION BECAUSE I SAID SO.

LETS ALL BE THE SAME. FOREVER. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IMMIGRANT NATIONS ARE OR HOW THEY ARE FOUNDED ON GENOCIDE OR SLAVERY. I DON'T KNOW!!!!

I MAY HAVE TAKEN THE LAND FROM 500 UNIQUE SOVEIRGN NATIONS AND FORCED THEM TO CONFORM TO MY ANGLO PROTESTANT STANDARDS, BUT THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE WHITE IS RIGHT!!! AMIRITE????? YEAHHH!!!!!!!

Okay, i have a question, hijabs, I don't think culture is necessarily a problem when the real problem is that people just need to accept others as human beings. There are some attires, like that gang members as you described, but that isn't a cultural thing, at least not the way I see culture.

Yes the t-shirt and jeans attire is significantly an American cultural type dress wear, but gang attire is not even remotely cultural, that is more group attire by affiliation.

I wear cargo shorts and T-shirt because it is what I am comfortable in, and I don't believe people would need give up their cultural wear, because it isn't their cultural dress they dislike, it is the cultural or behaviors they display, and culture and race are intrinsically linked. Hispanic people quite frequently exhibit more traditionalist views on gender roles and religion, or at least that is what I see most frequently. That is not only a cultural thing, but that culture belongs to more Hispanic families that have moved into America versus being raised here in America.

We can easily achieve a Star Trek based society when people start accepting people as people, whether a women likes wearing a dress or not, clothing has nothing to do with it. Guinan wears very extravagant clothing while everyone else wears uniforms or casual clothing, and even when we see other races show up in very very different clothing not belonging to the federation they are still treated like people first.

Seriously, it is not culture, it is not race, it is the ability to accept another sapient being as an intelligent living life form.

As I was saying to Seth above, it isn't that simple. You can't just put a bunch of wildly different people in a room, have then continue to emphasize their differences, and expect them to somehow magically get along and "get over it". That flies in the face of the most fundamental aspect of nature, be it humans or any animal of any kind, which is that "different is bad".

That hasn't happened in millions of years, and it's not going to happen now. In order to get a group of people to truly get along, you have to play down their differences and emphasize their similarities. So, you find a common ground that you can all at least sort of agree on, and work towards that. That's called compromise.

Yes, it does involve a certain amount of conformity, but it's conformity created by people of all different kinds living in one nation. Americanese incorporates a bunch of bits of many other languages, and American "common dress" came about though a combination of tons of factors, from the military to various subcultures to styles that began in Spanish, German, British, French, Irish, African and Chinese. But, it isn't any of those things now. It's American styles. People need a certain amount of conformity to function, but in America, this conformity was created by combining a bunch of diverse sources and then giving it a little but of unique spin.

Sp I ask: is it really conformity when you have a language and style created by the people, or is it more just choosing the common ground on which you can set your differences aside? :)

(Also, as to your Star Trek comment, I've seen other bartenders in that universe and they also seem to dress flashy. Which just makes it a bartender thing. Also, noone pays any special attention to the vulcan crewmembers, but when a bunch of vulcan spiritualists in full robes show up, everyone notices. Same for a group of klingon warriors, as opposed to crew who happen to be klingon.)

While it isn't simple, I don't think it is fair to say that people should abandon their culture entirely. Some conformity is expected, but not necessary, because even as the others in Star Trek were noticed, with the robes and the warrior dress they were still very much respected as were their cultural aspects. Granted some of them had to be dulled down based on expectation of being a visitor.

Differences also don't necessarily mean bad either, I accept there are people who are different than me in the ways of being able to run a business, while I know I could not, I also know there are other differences, but again, what position are these differences in and what type of differences are there. Even in Star Trek people of a very different religious convictions were highly respected out of respect for the person simply being a person, but also note that none of these convictions attempted to control anyone else such as some religions of our culture still do.

In terms of people in Star Trek not reacting negatively to the presence of these other groups, it's important not to confuse politeness with acceptance. Oh sure, the crew might be perfectly amiable toward those "exotic visitors"...but you don't see them getting invited to poker night, or having dinner with the crew. This is very much applicable to the real world.

Politeness and civility can give the appearance of acceptance, but they're not the same. That why you need that certain level of conformity, to remove the more overt differences that people - no matter how polite - never truly overlook.

You can accept someone and something without needing to invite the person or particularly agree with it for your personal views

And yet, you're still kind of avoiding them. Kinda judging them. You're just polite about it.

How much is the "acceptance" of someone worth when they find your advertised difference undesirable, quietly exclude you, and keep you out of jobs or social circles you would want to be part of? What if they label you as a threat, but say nothing?

That kind of "acceptance" has achieved nothing but a false smile.

There are federal laws that prevent discrimination for one, and secondly avoidance and judging don't need to go hand in hand. You can dislike something without judging it. We all have likes and dislikes.

Oh I can go on forever about my issues of not fitting in anywhere. When I was living in the Pacific, I was called Haole. When in Philippines, Kano. And back in the mainland, either Chink or Whitey. Why? Cause I am mixed, that's why. But I should not have to explain my ethnic background....cause I am supposedly American. Either way, no matter what I do or what I say, I will never fit in anywhere. And in a way, I doubt anyone can fully fit in anywhere. Now lets think about how big this country is. There's a lot of areas in this nation that act a bit differently that would contradict....or even anger the other areas. I am a truck driver, I drive all 48 states on the mainland. I will say right now there is no correct accent or way to dress in this nation. Go to New England and they all sound different than those who live in former Confederate states. Hell, Louisiana sound different than Texas. Where I am sitting right now, people here in Monte Vista, CO sound different than Texans. Washington State sound different than Indiana. And things everyone expects and don't expect are different. There's always a huge pot of different people living in different ways. I don't like the stupid pants down to my knees with my hand on my crotch style. But in the end, that's them. I'll do the world better (in my mind) by not dressing like that.

I have no idea why we are so obsessed with this "ONE VISION" of America. Especially since I seen everybody's ONE VISION to be mismatched. I would hate to see how you act visiting overseas. Cause I seen lots of people live their lives in non-stereotype ways that mixed their culture with others. And I seen stupid Yank tourist tell some Filipinos to act Filipino and dress up like one. Different ways to live, yet similar. There's no correct way to live...or die. Hell, I had people tell me to dress like a Yank for church while living in the Philippines cause I showed up in a Borang Tagalog. Me and my room mate switched clothing and he got mocked for wearing my suit and tie. So the hell what? At the end of the day, does it matter? Why should it matter? How did it harm anyone? All we should be asking for is respect and space. And in order to get that, we need to do the same. And if it can't be given/gotten, then left alone.

Oh, oh, and while I am at it, when I tell people I am half Thai, or people meet my Mother. They wonder why she is not a Buddhist. Why the hell should she be? Oh, wait....Thai's must be Buddhist, is that it? Or why she don't wear traditional clothing? What the fuck is traditional clothing? Why aren't people wearing the rags from 1700s? Or why is Hawaii still treated like some exotic place despite being a State in 1950? Or why saying I am from there automatically gets me the question of what my nationality is? Even though nationality have nothing to do with ethnicity and vice versa. It's America but for some reason it's treated as a foreign nation. Oh, and Guam and Puerto Rico is AMERICA. They are US territories just like all the states were prior to becoming a state. Just like Hawaii was a territory along with Alaska and the Philippines prior to 1950. Yet when Japan took Guam and Philippines away from us and bomb the shit out of Pearl Harbor, all we want to think about is Hawaii. Despite Hawaii was on the same level a Guam and Philippines. Let's forget Japan conquered OUR land. Nope, can't admit that. Let's ignore that and make Alaska and Hawaii a state, make the Philippines a free nation, and continue to ignore Guam. Yep, let's bury that. And these areas to this day act differently than the mainland.....just like all the areas in the mainland act differently. What's the point of this?

The topic of this was America, but I would say the same of any country. You are a part of where you live, not apart from it. If you flaunt your differences, people will react badly. That's just a fundamental truth of nature.

And yes, there is actually a "one vision" of America. It has a common language that I call "Americanese". It has a common style of dress that can be seen everywhere. What makes both of these so interesting is that they evolved from the input of tons of different cultures. In other words, exactly what America was supposed to do...incorporate a bunch of different stuff and produce something new and more or less unique unto itself.

If anything, as time passes, we've been seeing less and less of people emphasizing their differences in the US. Remember when everyone talked about "girl gamers"? Now they're just gamers. Not because everyone else just "forgot" that they're girls, but because they were no longer unusual nor did they emphasize being female. :)

THey are still called girl gamers as far as I know. Depends where you are at. You totally missed what I was saying and only saw, "Oh, Philippines." And what makes me, me. And cause what? I act like I always act like everywhere I go. And there is no one vision. None what so ever. Have you ever left your state? And also, for someone who claims to want to be valued to think outside of the box, you sure are demanding people to work in a box. Do you realize how you are giving out mix signals here?

Why do people keep reacting to this journal like I'm making some demand of them? This isn't me, it's life. It's nature. It is what is. When I say "people react badly the more overtly different someone is", that's not my opinion. It's just fact. Not believing me is sure as hell not going to change that being true.

Also, when I say that everyone living in America is an American, and that there is an American language, and there is an American style of dress, these things are true. I've lived all over America from the backwater parts of Kentucky to the most prudish parts of Virginia to the most laid back part of Colorado, and much more. I've been coast to coast, and yes, those things do exist.

How am I saying "I don't believe you?" when it comes to people react badly the more overtly different a person is? I been giving examples all the damn time. I am talking about you saying that people should drop who they are and conform like the little soldier they are. I mean, come on, you are using Star Trek as an example...a show about a military space fleet out to protect their interest and to hopefully seek out new life to bring into their fold. Of course they all have their culture quirks toned down...cause it's the flipping military. Deep Space 9 is a show about a space station that is probably the closest we'll see of more interactions of civilians on an outpost. Either way, what I and a few others are trying to get through to you is it don't matter how much you try to conform, people will always find a reason to set you aside as an outcast. Not to mention everyone have different ideas on what is acceptable in their ideal America. Either way, I am going to say you are LYING. Cause if you truly lived all over this country, you would not only know that there's different ideas of an ideal America, but you would understand where half of these people are coming from. As far as I can tell, IF this is true, you probably only lived in the most whitest, suburbanite area of any town, country or not. Cause this is the BS I have to deal with when talking to most white suburbanites. Yes, I went there.

Are you kidding? Are you really judging my perception because I'm white? Grats, now you're racist.

My first residence in Colorado was in an area that was primarily dominated by people of hispanic origin. I also did live in a very prudish part of Virginia...in which my neighborhood was a somewhat-lower-income mostly black and some white people, and they didn't like the rich white prudes of Virginia any more than I did, because those people would judge us not for our presentation but for our color, sex or nature. In fact, I got along quite well with my neighbors, what little I saw of them (most of them, like me, worked very hard and were busy a lot). They weren't wearing gang shit or copping some nasty attitude, they were just people. People for whom, like me, life dealt a tough hand.

But the important thing is, none of these people I lived around were making their lives worse by being some kind of racial stereotype, and yeah some people in power are assholes and like to fuck with anyone different...but emphasizing differences gets you nowhere. That's deliberately choosing to create a cultural rift, instead of minimalizing the issue by embracing similarity. Yeah, there's still gonna be some prejudice no matter what, but that lessens it tremendously.

I never said I wasn't. And to be frank, everyone is a little bit. I don't go out of my way to offend unless I feel like I am being pushed into a corner by someone who refuses to realize how racist they sound. I am offended by you. I really am. And I am giving up on trying to hide that.

NOW, with you saying all these things that where you have lived and experienced, okay, I believe you, cause I lived in these types of areas myself. BUT this also boggles my mind even further on how you STILL can not see how you are coming off as racist.

So here, I won't keep calling you on this then. But instead explain to you what is setting people off. You are trying to say you want people to act like a decent civilized being. Dress up nice and presentable, make it look like you actually care about how you are presented and perceived. Have a good attitude, no one likes to be talked to like they are being barked at by a dog. I get what you are saying there. This fad, this style of clothing of wearing pants down till it's near their knees is just disgusting. Yes, I get it, I agree. You are asking people to please clean up their act, be a decent civilized human being and get a long. Okay, I am all for that.

HOW you are going about it is you are relating this fad to race and ethnicity. You are accusing people who act, in your own thoughts, uncivilized as an outside culture that is foreign to the USA. Especially treating this Gangsta crap as if it's a real foreign culture that belongs to, maybe, Africa. You never said it's from Africa. BUT I can't help that's where you are basing it from since this came up about Black men wearing these things, and probably from Ghettos (I hate that word). And you somehow shifted gears from asking people to be civilized people to demand people to act like a stereotypical American instead of just being themselves. After all, most people from other cultures are civilized. But there's always bad apples too. You demand "Americanese". Which by the way is also upsetting cause I tell you right now, it's ENGLISH. You go anywhere in this world and you WILL get punched in the face for repeating the line, "Speak American". I can tell you from experience. You don't see Mexicans asking us if we know Mexican. They ask us if we know Spanish. Cause it's Spanish they are speaking. Again, another thing you been saying that is really agitating people.

Basically, if you never, not even once jumped on the "American ideal image" bandwagon and demanding conformity like most people with issues towards different cultures and race, we would not be having these issues. Cause the more I read, the more I do see that you are trying to go with, "Be respectable, courteous, civilized human beings." But you keep falling in that hole of patriotism and xenophobia without even realizing it and refusing to even realize that is where you are standing when others read this journal and your responses.

First of all, yes, it is the American dialect. It's not European English. You put someone who speaks pure American and someone who speaks pure English in a room, and there's gonna be a lot of shit that each wouldn't understand. There's all sorts of differing terminology, syntax, measurements, cultural references...and that's because the American dialect has evolved. It incorporated tons of words and terms that European English doesn't use, and has abandoned ones that are still used in English. It evolved. This is why many sites and programs actually differentiate between "American English" and "European English". They are very different.

Also, I'm not relating these things to race or ethnicity. I'm just the observer. It's unavoidable because I'm talking about people who are emphasizing their race or ethnicity by being a stereotype. (I also made it clear that many these stereotypes And 95% of the time, it's a negative stereotype. If people choose a style of dress and behavior that makes them stand out in a negative way, and I say "hey, look at these people doing that thing, and how it's causing them strife", how does that make me guilty of anything?

Wow, thanks Enter key.

....by being a stereotype. (I also made it clear that many these stereotypes can apply to people of any sex or race, because it's generated by dress and mannerisms, ie culturalism) And 95% of...

You just said it, "American English, and European English". It's STILL English, in the end. Just like Australian English, Candian English, new Zealand English, and I won't get into the names of all the countries in Africa and Asia with their own English. But in the end, it's still considered English. So call it what it is.

And once again, you are not watching how you word things, hence why this is a raging debate with everyone. You are saying, "Be that one ideal American." Not once since people been telling you there are many different ideas of what makes an American, including this hip hop gangster fad...or sub culture. It's on TV, it's out there, and it's mimicked overseas, believe it or not. And depends where you are at, it's more prominent in certain areas. It's part of our culture, if I like it or not. Either way, most here who have been complaining and arguing with you are not only saying that your idea isn't very sound. But most including myself have been fucking trying very hard to fill a mold that would be acceptable to the people around us, and it STILL is not acceptable. Half the people including myself are screaming out frustration of mindsets like yours making our lives more intolerable. Have you ever had someone come up to you and say you should be wearing such and such cause you are such and such? And when you do, you get told you should be wearing such and such to fit in....despite you were wearing that such and such earlier. Do you realize you just put yourself in as a target of these people's frustrations? Once again, it's how you word it. If you just went with not proclaiming you are not a racists, and just flat out said, "I find this type of clothing style offensive cause it gives me a peek at their ass and they should dress up respectfully. No one is going to respect someone with their underwear easily shown and talking like a hoodlum." Then maybe no one would feel like you are attacking their ethnicity. But instead demanding decency from this fad. Cause to me, that's all it is. A fad. And I refuse to see it as a subculture, cause then I just gave it power and purpose to exist. And by doing so, it also gives power to those who want to make it their identity. And since you give it power, it now feels like you are attacking a culture and even a race instead of just attacking this fad.

You have some foreigners on here who are offended, you have a few country men who are part of the majority offended. And you really got a huge list of American minorities offended including one who's on a green card and one who lived his life overseas for the first half of his life. Do you know what it is like to live in your country that you are from and to be told you are NOT doing it right? Especially when he's doing the same thing he's done in the last 2 countries he lived in? It's discouraging, frustrating, and quite frankly fucked up. Cause there's no right or wrong way to eat. I eat with a fork and spoon while the rest of my family eat with chopsticks. So the fuck what? It's my choice, still eating the same food they cooked. And it still comes out the same. The message I see here that you are working on hard is for decency. But the screaming you are doing is xenophobic.

This is the fourth or fifth time I've seen this claim so far as I move down this thread. You're arguing based on a variation of the
"Appeal to Nature" logical fallacy: Something is "natural" or "normal" and therefore we should acquiesce to it. In this case, it's being used here to make the claim, "Because even mild xenophobia is normal [to a certain subset of the population], and a majority of xenophobes will be found among the majority population, therefore everyone not of that population should police themselves so as to reduce the fear and dissonance of the majority of xenophobes."

In case the problems with that position aren't clear (there's precedent to suspect that they are not), this argument can equally be used to say, for example:
- Diseases are normal, therefore immunizations are bad because they help weak children stay alive, and weak children cause stress for other children.
- Wiccans, atheists, pagans, Muslims, Sikhs, and more all make majority Christians uncomfortable, and therefore need to go to church, pretend to pray to Yahweh, and otherwise make it clear who is REALLY in charge in order to get along.
- LGBTQIA people should not be around their partners where anyone can see them, because they make some people uncomfortable.

While they SHOULD all sound ridiculous, note that last one in particular; the real-life and mainstream analogy. The Appeal to Nature fallacy and its close cousin the Naturalism fallacy are routinely used by Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals to specifically argue that people like you and me should do as they say to assuage their fear and dissonance.

That's only one problem here. The fact that assuaging the fearful does not work, not with pets, and not with people, is another big one. But if the fact that this argument empowers the fearful majority at the expense of everyone else does not click, then I doubt anything could.

And speaking of fear - which is what motivates negative attitudes about minority groups - why exactly should people with enlarged amygdalas and no desire to discipline their behavior be the ones in charge? A direct consequence of what you saying is that bullies should be in charge as long as they fit in better than their victims. That fear of outsiders should rule social policy. That because some animals attack their weak or omegas, that we, WE should attack our weak, because somehow that is better than the "real" bad guys among us attacking them. Yes, by all means, let's destroy the village in order to save it. That always works.

Your comment is..well..nationalism!
And nationalism is the most stupid thing on that planet whit religious faith , sexysm, homophobia ect. They are all thing build by ignorance, stupidy and hate.

Do i give a shit about my friend cultural cloth? (And i have a lot of friend from other contry^^) No..no i don't . Why? Because i am not retard enough to think a piece of cloth will change
anything about their personality. A woman i know wear a hidjab..and she is the one that wear the pants in all the relationship she add until now, and i meet her..at my boxing club!
If people judge her on a piece of cloth well..i hope they will die.Slowly. Painfully. Because that kind of people create suffering,war, and slow humanity.

You CANNOT say to somone "hé! we are fucking stupid, we judge you as minority..soo..wear what we tell you to wear or you will become a victim! and this is your CHOICE to be a victim!"
I mean come on..help the victim, not the retard that attack them!

Ho and a suprise for you! Most people that travel a little bit learn to don't saw themself only as "japaness, chiness, usa (because well, america is bigger than just usa) ect."
My chiness friend will never leave Québec, they are happy in there. But they stick too whit other chiness people,because they share some culture. And that culture is rich, teach me some cooking trick, ect. They watch the chiness news. What wrong whit this?

I help them to choose the name of their kids. CHINESS one. They still have chiness culture stuff in the store they own. what wrong whit it? Nobody complain where i live. In reality, people are curious and like that.

Maybe "UNITED. STATES. CITIZEN." should think at this : other contry can be happy to discover new culture. I know this is the biggest lie of humanity, but well, your contry is suppose to be a contry of
"individual right and liberty".

I think this is time to apply that. Begin whit yourself. If not, other contry can be happy to take care of you, like afghanistant, where all the man and woman are suppose to wear the same kind of cloth XD.
Be proud of the diversity, of the liberty of people to exprim themself whit their cloths. Nobody have the same opinion of the kind of cloth they are confortable into anywais.

I think you're confusing nationalism with patriotism, but let's review.

According to definition: "Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation." Notice that this does not say idealizing that nation. That would be patriotism. Nationalism is just "if you live in America, then you're an American", which means it would only apply to the latter part of my journal. It also isn't a bad thing. It means that you're an American first and whatever else second.

The main topic, however, was about flaunting your race, gender or subculture in everyone's face and then getting butthurt when people judge you for it. You can't deliberately attract attention and then complain when people react because you're attracting attention. Now, you can judge the severity of their reaction, but not them having a reaction. If you go around emphasizing how different you are, then people are going to see that first, long before they look at you as a person.

yes, both are really close, and both are really stupid ^^

There's only one thing stupid here, and nationalism isn't it.

And guess what - out of my life, I have spent about 11 years living abroad, and if anything, it has made me more proud of my country (Slovak Republic) rather than less, because faults or not, it's still home and I'll never belong anywhere else as much as I do here - I mean, this has shown itself when I was looking for a job in the UK with my qualification after finishing university there - nobody bothered with me, not the least because of being a foreigner despite living there for four years.

But, it's natural. People are naturally tribal, we flock to people similar to us, and when you think about it, it makes a bloody lot of sense that we do. Hell, your chinese friend's example is precisely this effect in action.

As a final point, well, individual rights and liberty go both ways, as the orginal post was pointing out.
Nobody prevents you from dressing like a "gangsta" or running about naked (except for maybe public decency laws), but if you do, nobody prevents other people from avoiding or ostracizing you to some extent because of that.

P.S. Your points would have a lot better shot at pretending to be insightful if your grammar was not this atrocious.

Nationalism IS stupid :). Deeply. Nobody can say the opposite..exept if they are deeply blind and stupid themself. This is NATURAL to be racist or homophobic (because, yeah, this is naturel to hate people that are not from our group , what seem strange..ho..wait..that remenber nationalist, where people are stupid enough to think give a name to a land create a communauty they are proud of!) This is not because something is NATURAL that we should be proud of it!
This is naturel for some people to kill. Will you let them kill because, hé THIS IS NATURAL HELL YEAH!...
so pathetic...


And if you think people can put you awais because of your cloth, style ect..well..you sir, are fucking stupid.
I don't push people awais because of what they wear, i judge them on how they are, and who they are. I reallly pretty in real life, and because of this, some people think i was stupid. I have a baby face, and because of that some people think i suck in a ring (what is wrong XD). Because i dress sometime nice, people think i cannot enjoy a metal show. Because i sometime dress in lazy way, tomboy, people think i am lesbien (wtf?) or i have no money (haha so funny!) .
People that judge like that can only do mistake. They deserve at best hate.
Same, if you judge somone because of is "getho style" when he may just like the rap music..well..fuck you. That guy may be able to buy you and all your family 8 times, have superior study degree, ect.


ps: Sorry if my english suck, as this is not my first language. Sorry, i lost my time at travel become lawyer and reach the shape of a professional athlete and learn some chiness. We all have our priority :). What was your?

Nationalism IS stupid :). Deeply. Nobody can say the opposite..exept if they are deeply blind and stupid themself. This is NATURAL to be racist or homophobic (because, yeah, this is naturel to hate people that are not from our group , what seem strange..ho..wait..that remenber nationalist, where people are stupid enough to think give a name to a land create a communauty they are proud of!) This is not because something is NATURAL that we should be proud of it!

I fail to see what's so overwhelmingly stupid about people associating on basis of common language and culture. There are other ways of doing it, like associating on the basis of a religion (see medieval times where pretty much everyone in europe thought of themselves as part of "Christendom" because most everyone was catholic), but I very much doubt that'd work today.

As for ourselves, we got our own nation in 1918 after centuries of being oppressed by the Hungarians, and uh, I'm glad that we have and not eager at all to toss it away.


This is naturel for some people to kill. Will you let them kill because, hé THIS IS NATURAL HELL YEAH!...

Not actually all that natural. People are a fairly eusocial species, which is how we have been able to estabilish a society in the first place - if everybody was pretty ready to kill everybody when it suited them and when they thought they'd be able to get away with it, the police force and courts would be absolutely swamped.
In other words, weeding out the bad apples is a meaningful effort there.

Same, if you judge somone because of is "getho style" when he may just like the rap music..well..fuck you. That guy may be able to buy you and all your family 8 times, have superior study degree, ect.
Nine times out of ten, he won't be. That's the thing about stereotypes - they tend to be true fairly often. You just need to take care not to be guided by them when there's evidence pointing elsewhere that's stronger.


ps: Sorry if my english suck, as this is not my first language. Sorry, i lost my time at travel become lawyer and reach the shape of a professional athlete and learn some chiness. We all have our priority :). What was your?
It's not my first language either. But, fair enough I guess - I have seen worse from native speakers.

Wrong! sociopath and psychopath are the elite of our scociety usualy. Some of them enjoy the idea to kill and will never do anything, most will never do anything criminal.. ..but that kind of people is the doctor that heal you, the lawyer, the man that give you a job because he is on the general board of big corporation ect. I date one, so i know what i talk about, i did a lot of research about them :). And they are naturel (natural..the word that mean nothing haha..but yeah, they are natural in all the meaning of that word)

and the MEANING of stereotypes is well..that mean what that mean! Bullshit is bullshit! Only somone whit a really tiny mental capacity could think stereotypes have justification. Don't forget stereotypes is racism, homophobia, ect. Not only cloth style. This is the same mental and social mechanism. Anybody that lead that way should be kill at sigh for the good of humanity. Torture the tormentor, not the victim.

But i guess people like you cannot understand simple thing like that one :).
This is at the same time SO simple...and so complicate for some people.

I wasn't going to respond, initially,because you made me feel like I didn't have a right to, since i don't always, or necessarily want to, conform to your ideal of what an American Citizen appears to be. I have lived in America for 7 years, I am a legal permanent resident; I'm not a citizen yet. Also,I am of mixed race, so,I come from more than one heritage, and that is it's own kettle of screaming eels.

However your attitude is one that was shared by a (former) friend of mine, and made me feel very uncomfortable about my choice to come to America, where i thought i could be free to be, believe and be accepted for, myself. But this attitude implies I need to strip myself of many influences that made me who I am. And the thing is, which part of America should I fashion myself after, to fit in?

Do i be a chill, surfing vegan? Do i become a baby-making sister-wife with long hair and a long skirt? Should start saying 'Doncha know?' and buying a lot of ugly sweaters? Maybe I should become a hardcore Christian and protest abortions, birth control and feast on Pecan pies? Maybe I should learn to rap, wear gold necklaces and start wearing a scarf around my head? Or should I learn to cook meth and live with an alligator in my backyard? Should i strive to own 3 large trucks, which i sometimes use to get to my mail box when i don't feel like walking the 10 ft from my front door? Should I buy a gun that i barely know how to shoot let alone maintain? Should I buy a gun and get super mega into learning how to use and maintain it? Do I start wearing pointed white hoods and causing property damage? Do I marry a sweet girl and decorate our home and selves with rainbows and tiaras, adopting babies from poorer nations?

Which kind of American should I be; which kind is correct? Where are you from, should i be more like you to fit in? Should I forget about the cultures I grew up with? the cultures my parents are very much part of, living in their respective countries? Once I become a citizen am I only allowed to send seasonal greetings to my parents on the 4th of July,Thanksgiving and Christmas? Will i have to willfully ignore and avoid the holidays THEY still celebrate? When i can't visit them on these occasions in their own countries, will i have to sit at home alone,celebrating by myself,instead of inviting American friends over to celebrate with me? Am I not allowed to go out to a restaurant on these occasions,with my American friends,dressed in a traditional outfit usually worn on the day, that I've pretty much been doing since birth, because i would be flaunting it? If my dad calls me up while I'm in private, do i answer him solely in English, making him wonder why i'm ashamed to speak the same language as him, in public?

And yet, growing up, a lot of people assumed i was American because I somehow ended up with a mildly American accent.

I thought, thanks to television I guess, that being an American was about accepting people despite their clothes, accents and backgrounds; that everyone was given a chance to prove themselves instead of being judged in just one glance, and letting people do what and how they will as long as it wasn't hurting anyone. Imagine my surprise, after living here for just 7 years, how intolerant, unsupportive and dismissive some Americans can be towards not only Immigrants, BUT THEIR FELLOW AMERICANS.

Because... the style you're discriminating against in your journal (which usually incorporate a t-shirt and jeans) is as American as the apple pie you mentioned; as far as I'm aware, that fashion came from America before being emulated elsewhere in the world, and I think it started to develop around the disco era, drawing influences from the affluence of the (usually white) celebrities on tv with attitudes and sensibilities from the situations/neighbourhoods they grew up in...if I'm wrong,please let me know.

And the fact that you say that you have to dress a certain way to not be perceived as a threat; isn't that like asking "What was she wearing when she was raped?" ie; what was the victim wearing when he was shot, on his knees, through the top of his head?

Because, dressing and acting a certain way is not going to guarantee a positive outcome. I dressed very conservatively and neatly when i worked retail, and i still got people assuming I was for sale or would provide services for the right amount of money.

And when i was still living in my father's country, I'd dress the same as everyone else, spoke the same language, but because i was paler, and admittedly my language skills weren't too great, i was avoided, even shunned,by the various groups at school. Even the groups that spoke english, because i just didn't fit in, visually.

I have a friend who is a brilliant musician specialising in Irish music(he is American by the way,so i guess he shouldn't be playing foreign music at all), but because he's half chinese,that is what a lot of the judges see, and even scoff at, saying he shouldn't be playing 'their music'... he is half Irish-American.

Also, you bring up Star Trek, I'm not much of a fan myself, but I'm going to point out a few things i remember from various series/episodes.

People employed by the Federation, ie, most of the main characters of the shows, are part of Starfleet; they all essentially wear the same thing because they are usually depicted Doing Their Jobs, so therefore are in uniforms. This however doesn't stop them from showing aspects of their culture, anything from traditional piercings, tattoos or accessories, worn as part of their uniform.
When they are not on the clock, they will usually adopt casual outfits that reflect their personalities or cultures; it is not something they have to keep behind closed doors.
The civilians that are depicted usually have a wide variety of fashions and aesthetics, some groups leaning towards one look more than another group.
Sure, the crew's off-the-clock clothing could look similar, but maybe they just shopped at the same places, or a particular style was 'in' at the moment - but nothing and no one was stopping them from wearing something ore culturally significant in their spare time either, and some characters would do this more than others.

Sadly, I'm too tired to do any more long replies, so just read the dozen other long-ass ones I've done and hopefully you'll see what I'm getting it. :D

But I will give you a quick synopsis:
1. "Different is bad" is fundamental to nature. You can't change that.
2. A culture gains strength from incorporating differences. This is also true.
3. Emphasizing differences will always lead to conflict. Again, a fundamental truth.

Basically, contribute to the whole but don't stick out like a sore thumb. Be a part of where you live, not apart from it. That's my journal in a nutshell.

Also yes, t-shirts and jeans are actually American. Wiki that shit. :D

And just like anything else american: "came from somewhere else"
Just like Cowboys origins are actually from spain...

Once you've rested up a bit, I hope you can formulate responses to some of my questions that weren't remotely addressed by your synopsis.

And yes, t-shirts and jeans are American... and the 'ghetto street thug' uniform you keep bringing up as an example incorporates that, the style itself being as American as the core items in the aesthetic - and while it has been an indicator of a certain upbringing and financial situation, it by no means should = street thug,no matter who is wearing it... because a lot of the people i see dressed that way in real life, especially with gold necklaces, are singers, musicians, actors and other people of means... who are not likely to mug anyone. But maybe my location doesn't allow me to witness these real street thugs and hoodlums in their natural habitats.

I would think if it was so common a indicator and uniform of someone dangerous, people would adapt their fashion... but thats somewhat akin to saying "Hey Mahmud, you might wanna take off that turban, some white guy might think you're a terrorist and kill you."
Why is it solely the individual's responsibility to ensure their own safety? Why do they have to live like a potential victim in order to be safe?
And just because an individual modifies their behaviour to avoid discrimination... that doesn't address the mindset that caused this kind of modification to have to occur; why does the minority have to change? Why are you saying is it easier for a minority to change their whole mindset and lifestyle but not the people prone to discrimination? Why aren't they held accountable for being dicks to someone who doesn't match their definition of 'acceptable American Citizen'?

The solution to everyone's problem that you keep proposing isn't going to resolve anything, it is just sweeping the problem under the rug and letting hurtful, ignorant mindsets continue to grow and prosper.

You keep spamming 'Different is bad', and how it's a fundamental force of nature,
Granted, you have a point; in the wild, overt differences within a species can cause other members of the same species to be unable to recognise the mutated individual as part of the same species, and would be driven out, shunned or killed.

Last i checked humans were more evolved than the common trout, and are capable of overcoming differences.
For example, if differences are so bad to humans, we do we strive SO HARD to change things regarding nature?
Fruits, grains, vegetables,domesticated animals; humans made them different from their natural counterparts, made them better suited to our needs. These differences are Good.

Humans continue to shape and change the physical world around them, why should philosophies,mindsets and culture be exempt from changes? Why should negative attitudes be left the way you say they are? Why shouldn't people be striving towards a future where ACCEPTING differences is the norm, and tolerance is more than just insincere politeness?

You may be saying it how you see it, and I don't like what you see. I've seen shades of it myself, but I don't want to be a victim. Your truth is not my truth, I refuse to believe that this is the best humanity can be.
And if YOU really believed it, you wouldn't be in the furry fandom - one of the most expressively diverse fandoms in the world. What you are advocating as a solution to a more unified, peaceful America would destroy people's ability to participate in the fandom; they would not be allowed to have conventions in public, it would be illegal for people to wear fursuits out in public. It would be illegal for furs who go to hospitals in their suits to cheer up ill children, or from appearing and performing at charity events to raise awareness and money for a cause.

Also, you keep saying there is a certain level of unified Americana that everyone should adopt.
Why do you presume America is at the pinnacle of it's cultural evolution? Why do you feel 'this is it'? You don't seem terribly satisfied with what you see, so why let this be your America?
Because otherwise you are implying that culture stops developing after a point.
And historically, cultures that try to minimise outside influences stagnate (ie; The Dark Ages) or just cause more tension that can lead to bloody conflicts. Because there's another term for the kind of minimisation you keep bringing up: Oppression.

You have literally been suggesting that the best thing for people to do is oppress themselves to be accepted by the majority.
People shouldn't have to be afraid of being different and people shouldn't be afraid of those who are. People should not have to hide aspects of themselves just in case someone of the majority takes violent offense to their harmless expression of self.

No one should be forced to choose being oppressed over being free to do things that do not hurt other people in any way... and usually when this happens, people are usually in a situation few would consider ideal.

And you keep saying "This isn't what i think, this is just how the world is,I'm just pointing it out, why do you, the different, keep getting upset at me for pointing out the way things are?"

Because we want a better world than what you keep saying is the norm.

200 years ago, people I currently consider friends would view me as exotic, and unfortunate; unwanted and unnatural. 100 years ago, wearing pants would've been the most offensive thing for me to do. It would've been normal for me to have had 8 kids by now,perhaps 3 of whom survived past infancy, if i was lucky. My parents wouldn't have been allowed to get married let alone interact in the first place. You would be sitting naked in a travelling carnival, lucky to see a dime of the money you generated. Things are clearly greatly improved since then, and that's because people have been fighting for equality, and freedom and human rights for DECADES. Why should people stop striving for further social and cultural development in 2014? Why should we accept 'things will never change' when clearly,things HAVE, by and large, changed?

Why throw up your hands and say "The Oppressors are right, being different is only going to get you in trouble, stop being so different and they should leave you alone."?
Because not only are you coming across as nihilistic and defeatist, but because what you have been promoting as 'the way things are and how to best deal with it' is enabling racism, sexism, homophobia and ableism. That attitude will not create a unified world where everybody gets along, that attitude pushes people into closets and justifies the ill treatment of those who 'are not like us'. It is a mindset that is, and promotes ethnocentric, xenophobic, intolerant behaviour.

Honestly half the time you sounded like you were two steps from suggesting eugenics would be a good idea to reduce difference between races and genders even further. Because you seem incapable of conceiving of a world where different mindsets and fashions and beliefs can get along, where identity needs to be stripped down and closely controlled.

It is people with attitudes and mindsets like your's, that HELP the overtly hateful racists get away with their BS; because you blame the victim more than the antagonist. Nowhere in any of your discussions have you suggested ways that antagonists should modify their behaviour - only that if the bullied 'stand out less' they would be antagonised less. Oh you acknowledge that bullies and racists are BAD... but you still have not said anything about how THEY should be reprimanded, but again and again, you reprimand individuals for not 'confirming' and say this makes them a target. My beliefs, the culture of my parents, and me wanting to remember and perhaps incorporate it into my life no matter where I physically am in the world, no matter what kind of passport I carry,should NOT label me as a target. Hiding is not the answer - expecting to be treated like an equal in country that is built on multiple ethnicities,cultures and beliefs, should be the right of not just visitors and immigrants, but of American Citizens.

America should not be the homogenous, stunted, unevolving monoculture you claim it is or should be.

And THAT is why people are getting upset at you.

But if being an oppressed minority (despite your obvious white privilege) makes you happy, that is your right. Live that way, love that way, promote that way; but don't expect people who are tired of living that kind of life roll over and agree that 'it is the best and only way'. THAT is why people are disagreeing with you. Because nobody wants what makes them the people they are looked down upon, hidden or stripped away, just for the facsimile of peace and unity.

I don't want to be oppressed, that is not why I came to America.

Yes, but point I was getting at earlier is, despite me dressing up in a Barong Tagalog when I was in the Philippines, I was still the white looking kid with light brown hair that stuck out in the entire room filled with brown people with black hair. And in the end, guess what? Still an outcast. That stuff STILL happens in America.

Also, she never said t-shirts and jeans are not from America. She is saying there's many different ideas of the ideal American that she's seen to the point that it's confusing to try to follow...cause they all don't match and maybe counteract the other. Maybe if you took the time to fully read all the replies instead of giving some of the most ridiculous replies that don't even fully relate to what was being said, people maybe a little more nicer.

"For anyone who would read this and bitch about how I'm telling them to "give up their culture" when they're in public, well...you're right! You're not Mexican! You're not African! You're not South American! You're not Canadian or Columbian or Jamaican or Indian or Israeli or Pakistani or Vietnamese or Japanese! YOU. ARE. A. UNITED. STATES. CITIZEN."

Unfortunately I must contradict this statement for I am NOT a UNITED. STATES. CITIZEN nor do I live within the USA borders, I AM a CANADIAN CITIZEN living within the borders of CANADA and unlike the USA witch has been refereed to as a cultural melting pot the grate nation of CANADA is a beautiful cultural mosaic in witch diversity is excepted and celebrated....... unless your from Quebec.


Personally I wold rather look at a divers and colourful mosaic then staring at a pot of melted goo.

Ah, Canada. So much undeserved idealism. Let's look at some fun facts!

1. Only about 61% of Canadians can speak and understand each other via a common language, and even that's divided between English and French. 93% of Americans speak American.

2. Canada is a great place to live...if you're white. Non-white ethnic groups in Canada earn notably less in most jobs, and even less than that if they're female (this is from an actual report by the Canadian Department of Justice). In every state I've lived in in the US, people earn the same wage for the same job, regardless of sex or origin. A few states still manage to get away with unfair wages in some jobs, but they're the minority.

3. 95% of Canada's "ethnic diversity" is funneled into four provinces, and 91% of those people live in the metropolitan areas of those provinces. Hmmmmmmm....no comment.

Yes, Canada is diverse. Yes, it embraces ethnic individualism.

It's also a bloody mess.

Let me put it this way...the current American dollar is shit. It's based on projections, lies and overdue credit, and everyone knows it...yet the Canadian dollar is worth a full 10% less than the US dollar. Grats on having less economic value than the loud-mouth idiot barbecuing in his underwear next door. I should also mention that 44% of Americans who've been exposed to the Canadian healthcare system described it as "poor", and ours isn't exactly sunshine and rainbows.

But y'know, by all means, enjoy your mosaic. :D

Health care my be a bit of a low standard (unles you pay for additional health insurance)but at least it is available to all were as in the USA its only available to those that can afford it.

Also Canada invented the chocolate bar, the telephone, basketball and poutine so that automatically makes us better

The chocolate bar and the telephone are something to be proud of.

Basketball sucks.

Poutine is so gross. :D

For the record...I like you. :D

This is funny how you know total shit about canada. Canada is a contry i really dislike , as i am from Québec...but WOW you are SO wrong hahaha. You seriously know shit about the stuff you talk about.

well ..let take the health care ^^. I get a disease, i saw many doctor. I did many test, and all these stuff would cost me few MILLIONS of $ in usa. What that cost me in canada..hmm..nothing?
I go at hospital few time, because well...fight sport and i am kinda stupid haha.

For a real injury, i never wait more than few 2 or 3 hours. And they was not SERIOUS injury.
Yeah..we wait few hours..so what? If you NEED some medical attention, they will take you right now. if not you wait. Do you know why? Because in canada, they don't let die a HUGE majority of people because they don't have money, and when they heal them, they don't take anything they have, house, car, ect.


And unlike what you say, the official stats say clearly racism at work is a bigger problem in usa than canada :)

ho and know what? In Québec, we are socialist. We hare open to other communauty. We don't belive in retard stuff like nationalism or patriotism, or religious stuff, or fanatic hate of commnism, or one of the MANY other flaw of usa. And when the usa economy colapse, our keep growing :).
so yeah..i prefer my mosaic to a contry where most of the people don't have the knowledge of a teen of 14 years old from canada or québec (because yeah, instand of buy missile for kill civilian, we prefer to pay school at our kids ^^)

"Two of the common things happen when you place different people in a room"
They either find common ground enough for them to tolerate each other in a peaceful manner, or they fight each other

Your Star Trek sits on this base idea...
The Federation consist of civilizations that have seen that they have enough common ground with the other civilizations in the federation to co exist with em.
BUT
They are still themselves, they don't change for or melt into the federation, they are PART of the Federation.

So while "Yes, different is bad" history shows also shows "being different is why all things happen". Being the same does not advance things, if anything conforming has much of a history of destroying things than being different.

That's why it's a compromise. Everyone is always going to be a bit different, and through those contributions to the whole it becomes stronger, but emphasizing those differences will only cause things to fall apart by creating rifts.

It's the big trick...benefit from everyone's differences while not having those differences become an obstacle.

But it will always be an obstacle no matter what: in star trek Every civilization was vastly different from another, heck there are civilizations that DON'T get along with another one that is part of the federation so they tolerate them cause to someone else that civilization is probably needed by another.

A bit Different is still Different as Idola will say: You either accept the differences and proceed to the path of co exist or gradually destroy yourself trying to conform cause we will always find a reason to view each other differently. This goes for the US cause each state itself is different from another state (even down to the driving habits as my friends find it weird I prefer driving barefooted or hang a foot out the window if i'm the passenger due to where I'm from being the US Virgin Islands its common for people to do that or even walk quite a bit of ways barefoot.).

The actual trick is to acknowledge the differences and not judge base on em but instead on the individual merits rather than trying to erase the differences.

I can tell me and Seth while both black, we are already completely different I prefer to always dress casually, to be comfortable due to where I am from but in the damn end we'll both end up being treated the same way...I would rather be treated base on myself, and I'm sure Seth up above would rather be treated base on themselves.

That's not the actual trick, because it'll never happen. It's naive idealism. People will always judge anything that stands out too much, for good or ill. All of history supports this. Hell, even furries make judgements about other furries. "Oh god here come the dragons. They're gonna be powergamers or special snowflakes..."

My opinion doesn't matter. Your opinion doesn't matter. It's just nature. I agree that it sucks, but that's what is. You can't change what is, but you can work around it. You compromise. Be a part of the community, instead of apart from it. As I said to Seth, it's not a perfect solution, and even with that blending there can still be a little prejudice left over no matter how much everyone integrates...but it's the only solution that works. In fact, it's proving that it can work right now. People have truly failed in this country to appreciate how much of our current equality has come from people evolving to be less blatantly different. Women and men dressing in similar clothes. People of different ethnic backgrounds all learning one language. Driving similar cars. Working the same jobs. Making the same pop-culture references. Playing the same games online.

Giving up overt differences in favor of common ground is the building block of...well, everything social ever. :)

No the overt differences benefit the whole, this is why total order and total chaos doesnt work, thats why YOUR view won't work either cause its also naive idealism

If you really did know nature, you understand that nature is sides with chaos more so than with order
Different VIEWS CONTRIBUTE TO THE WHOLE
People are not dressing the same due to our differences, people are not playing the same games online due to different views, people of who speak different languages preserving their languages while learning the common language (specially since the english language heavily rely on taking words from DIFFERENT ones). It doesnt work that way EVER due to nature works on chaos, it demands people to learn of each other than to be simplified.

You can find common grounds while keeping your differences, you don't ever have actually have to submit to conformity to improve things, its conforming that does the actual damage right NOW.

What you must understand, is that when Flynn has a peculiar definition of "compromise"

When two people have a problem and they compromise, it typically involve the two of them making concessions and meeting in the middle. They find a compromise.

When Flynn compromises, they actually mean that you should do whatever they want and if you're not happy you can always leave.

Which is funny enough rather different idea of their Star Trek Federation example of which the federation embraced the diversity as each civilization whom continued to remain themselves instead of changing to be "normal". I mean even in the starfleet they allow these people to continue to be themselves as they still have their mannerism, allowed to decorate their quarters to their likings and some wear their Starfleet uniforms differently.

And even if Flynn say "be american" they failed the simple idea the every state is different (hence they saying they been all over america, and if they did they would literally learn that each state is different, just like how each European country is different from each other), and me being in florida, we do have a high hispanic influences, our signs tend to be in english AND spanish on top of which we have slight caribbean influences as much of the population come from the caribbean (I being a person from the US Virgin Islands).

Flynn just failed to realize that "american culture" they push out so much is literally things america have taken from other cultures, like how football in america came from rugby(as my grandma humorously put it "pansy rugby" when she means American football), and they wanting me to be "american" I guess I better stop watching soccer as soccer is not an "american" sport.

It's not racism if I call you out for having a different culture!

No quit having a different culture and behave like everyone else, we don't need your silly antics in the good ole United States of Amuhricas.

You must forget your heritage, you are now a US citizen, and much like the Borg, we will assimilate you. Actually, no, because assimilating means taking your distinctiveness and adding it to your own, so if you could *please* become a good god fearing, minority hating American, that'd be great kthx.

Man, I don't understand why everyone hates us. They must be jealous I guess!

This is about people making efforts to get along. A bunch of people standing around emphasizing in every way possible how different they are does not - and won't ever - lead to a functional culture.

This is true of every country on the planet...well, except for Canada. They said "fuck unified cultural identity, let's embrace diversity on every level!". Now they have massive levels of inequality, a dysfunctional healthcare system, and a dollar worth less than the US dollar...and that's saying something.

You want people to work together as a community? They gotta have common ground, and not be all crazy-different. Just different enough to strengthen the community as a whole, contributing their differences instead of constantly calling everyone's attention to them.

This is about people making efforts to get along. That is, about people making efforts to get along with me, not the other way around.

Also, lol at an American calling other healthcare systems dysfunctional. 'sup pot, I'm kettle, how you doin?

The US healthcare system is dysfunctional, and known to be so...and yet 44% of Americans treated in Canada said theirs was worse.

That's pretty bad.

Also, that line of thinking is gonna get you nowhere, hun. It's about meeting people halfway, and finding common ground to get to know each other on, not getting to just do whatever and people magically accept it for some reason. Saying that it's all about them having to get along with you is a rather self-centered attitude. :/

Dude, it stopped being about meeting people halfway and finding common ground when you told everyone to go buy a pair of jeans and shirts (for $20) because it's the American way and as good god fearing citizens of the United States of America, they weren't allowed to be part of a culture that is not yours.

Context is important. Remember me mentioning that person dressing like a gangsta street thug? I'm saying that's what they should wear instead, because if they did, they'd be seen by the populace as a normal American instead of a street thug.

Why is every reply to this acting like this is somehow just applicable to America, and not the entire world? Or that some ideal of perfect acceptance is even remotely going to happen, ever, in some make-believe fantasy world? This isn't an American truth, it's just truth. You gotta fit in at least to an extent or you're gonna stand out, and people will judge, use or avoid you because of it. You have to make an effort to be part of the majority culture of where you live in order to have a normal life, unless you plan on starting a revolution or seceding from the country or something.

Context is important, indeed, here's the context:

If some black guy walks by me in a tshirt and jeans, I'd barely notice, if at all. If I'm having a really good day on the other hand, I might say "hi", smile or wave like I would to anyone else. Same if they were hispanic, asian, Columbian, whatever. There's no difference there. So they have different skin or hair or whatever...who cares? They're another person just like me.

Now, if that person has a ghetto shirt and a gold chain and his pants sagged down to his fucking knees...yeah, I'm gonna notice that! He could be black, white, hispanic, anything...doesn't matter. It's not his color or origin that's making him stand out, it's his dress. It's his attitude. This person is clearly odd. They're dressing and behaving in a manner that sends up a red flag of "wtf?". aka YOU ARE DIFFERENT AND THIS DEEPLY BOTHERS ME BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT WEARING BLUE JEANS AND WHITE SHIRTS

In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE. Srsly, you can buy a shirt and jeans from Wal-Mart for like 20 bucks. Go do it. aka STOP BEING DIFFERENT THAN ME KTHX BLUE JEANS AND WHITE SHIRTS ALL THE WAY BBY THIS IS AMERICA.

You're not Mexican! You're not African! You're not South American! You're not Canadian or Columbian or Jamaican or Indian or Israeli or Pakistani or Vietnamese or Japanese! YOU. ARE. A. UNITED. STATES. CITIZEN. aka YOU LIVE IN AMERICA, YOU HAVE TO LIVE, SPEAK AND BREATHE THE FREEDOM AIR OF AMERICAN FREEDOM, WHERE I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR ETHNICITY AS LONG AS YOU ARE WEARING BLUE JEANS AND WHITE SHIRTS AND FORGET ABOUT YOUR ETHNICITY AND BEHAVE LIKE A GOOD GOD FEARING AMERICAN.


TL;DR you basically started you rant with "i'm not racist but..." and like 100% of the rants that starts this way, you're spewing racist shit. Which is hilarious, considering you were ranting about how people didn't accept your difference in another journal. Which makes you, like every other racists out there, a fucking hypocrite.


PS: FA you suck with your lack of comment preview

Okay, first of all, you do realize that the "I" in those examples is also the majority of people everywhere? Also, please stop turning culturalism back into racism - which it's not - because that just fucks our society over more. It also kinda proves my point as well. I would have the same reaction if that person was white, hispanic, asian or any other ethnic background (in fact, I've found said people just as suspicious and wanted to avoid them). A person who dresses like a gansta street thug - no matter what color their skin is - sends the exact same goddamn message...so don't even try that racism shit. It should not be encouraged among any group as something that's okay.

I would expect people living in Japan to behave in a Japanese manner. So would the fucking Japanese. How do you think they'd feel if some American jackass decided to go mudding in a rice paddy? Oh, but you know, "gotta respect my ethnic culture". If you live in America, be an American. If you live in Germany, be fucking German. If you live in Ireland, embrace Ireland. People going around flaunting their differences just causes them to segregate themselves, as can be seen...pretty much anywhere. That's. Just. Fact.

Oh, right. Not racism, culturalism.

It's when you don't hate Mexicans, it's when you hate what makes them Mexican.

Also, that is such a terrible example, you should be ashamed of yourself. Yes, a Japanese would be fucking angry at an American mudding in their rice field. Just like an American would be angry at anyone mudding in their HFCS fields.

also, shocking news, people are racist. More news at "it doesn't actually makes racism OK" o'clock.

PS: you're racist.

*beats her head on the desk*

I DON'T DISAPPROVE OF WHAT MAKES MEXICANS MEXICAN BEING OPENLY DISPLAYED WHEN THEY'RE IN MEXICO. But when you move to another country you adopt that country's speech and traditions when it comes to public behavior. PUBLIC behavior. That's basic fucking courtesy! And respect! But apparently respect is dead. Everyone just wants their entitlement. Everyone wants to be their special cultural snowflake and go around rubbing it in people's faces instead of making efforts to be an American and come together as a community, so FUCK IT ALL. I'm gonna go out and raise the British flag and talk like a cockney fuck and paint a giant intersex symbol on the front of my house because WHO CARES ABOUT GETTING ALONG, RIGHT? Fuck everyone, I have my culture!

PS: You're a fucking idiot.

No, no, I fully understand your point.

People should make efforts to get along and respect each others. And by people I mean obviously not you, as you are wearing blue jeans and white shirts already. People should just stop being what they are so you can enjoy walking down the streets of your God Given American city of Freedom without having to see, *gasp* people of different ethnicity doing things differently. They should be respectful like you, bury their culture down in the backyard with their hopes and dreams, and wear blue jeans and white shirts, speak perfect american, eat cheeseburgers and drive GM trucks.

I too, hate how the Good God Fearing American culture is threatened by these dens of evil different cultures that are Chipotle and Taco Bell.

I mean, that's what working together as a community is about, right? Force other people to behave exactly like you so you don't have to deal with their differences at all! It's totally respectful and they're terrible people for not wearing blue jeans and white shirts.

Dude, you're a racist fuck. I know, I know, you don't hate Asian people, you just hate how they insist in driving Japanese cars and eat rice and doing all these Asian things you don't like like having new year in the middle of the year what the fuck is wrong with these people amirite? But hey, you're not racist, you're willing to actually work with them, together, to convert them in Good God Fearing Americans because you can't possibly deal with how different they are.

What? Making an effort to tolerate difference? Lol no, that's too much work, they're the different ones and they're the ones who should stop being different.

Wow...you're actually really racist...huh...

I know, right? It's almost as if I was plagiarizing and making fun of your own argument!

GIVE THE BUNNY A BLOODY MEDAL!

Okay Bunnyta. I'm going to explain this once, and only once, in the hopes that it sinks through that thick skull of yours.

A unified America is happening. It's already existing. Growing. Thriving. This new American culture is composed of every race, sex and background, and it came about through a blending of those cultures. A new culture from the many. This is real. This is now. It's everywhere, with more and more people realizing how great and amazing it is to be able to relate to so many other people who would've been so very different before, but are now living in the same areas and working the same jobs and doing the same activities together without any overt tension or pointless judgementalism.

This is a good thing. This is what the melting pot of America has achieved.

However, as this majority social culture of America grows, the belligerent minority cultures become more and more obvious, and thus there's more and more tension, leading to more and more conflict (including conflict between people of the same race separated by that division). I don't see this getting less prevalent, I see it happening more often, can't you see the same thing? It's inevitable. What I'm saying is that these groups deliberately choosing to stand apart could give a little and meet halfway. Make an effort to be some part of the majority culture. They don't have to stop being individuals, or forget where they came from. That's not even what this is about. A little compromise benefits everyone and our social future, that's what I'm saying.

A unified America is happening.

I think you misspelled "I am delusional and also racist"

PS: Minorities are still being discriminated against in the USA. Yes, even the mythical ones who dress in blue jeans and white shirts.

redisdead has already explained she has nothing of value to contribute. It is best to hide/block and disregard her at this point.

Weren't you throwing a tantrum a short while back about how people wouldn't accept that you were "intersex" and expected you to conform to real, non-make-believe gender like male or female?
Kinda hypocritical that you expect everyone else to conform to what your idea of 'proper culture' is, isn't it?

Not at all, actually. As people spend less time emphasizing how different males and female are, and focus on the similarities, that only puts people like me closer and closer to a better position. Same goes for trans people. It's much easier to accept things when you make them less "different". The key here is that an intersex person may be born different, but we don't act or dress different from typical men and women of today. This is exactly my counter-point. That when everyone's on the same page, we should all be equal...even if that isn't always the case in practice. But, we can get close.

Yes, I am an intersex person...but I talk like you, I dress like you, I act like you, I play the same stuff online you do...I'm contributing my difference, but I'm not using it to stand apart from anyone. Hopefully that makes sense.

Also there's the fact that intersex people don't legally exist in the US, which puts us in a very unusual kettle compared to gay or ethnic groups. A battle for civil rights for what you're born as is NOT in the same topic as being part of a community. The irony is, until that changes, I'm not even going to benefit from the idea of cultural compromise.

Everything I've said here literally gains me nothing. It just puts an end to a lot of pointless strife and entitlement that's not achieving anything except impeding progress and costing precious lives and resources.

Well, I may be putting my foot in it again and making some people mad, but I feel the need to chime in too. I think some of the people missed the point again, like the one person talking about being the whitest black guy his friends knew...he's just one person doing this and the problem doesn't go away overnight. Does he have any other black friends who aren't dressing and acting different for the sake of standing out?

Actually, I think I'm getting a little side-tracked already. The real point I wanted to bring up is the strange fixation on being 'unique' that people have and the fact they do so buy adopting other cultures or the mannerisms of a group. I know when I went to school there were clear cut and defined groups of people and I see that even in the real world, it's just that there are MORE groups instead of the handful I had in school. To use the example Flynn did earlier, no matter what the skin color, people are wearing outfits like that because that's the group they want to belong to. They think it makes them cool and look tough...or whatever reason they have. It's being a nonconformist by conforming to a group. Or in more simple terms, be different by acting just like everyone else in this group...and honestly, it's one of the few bits of human behavior that still confuse the heck out of me. O_o

I think one of the saddest examples of style of dress influencing what people thought about someone involves a man trying to buy a truck. He comes into the dealership wearing boots, overalls, and is a bit on the dirty side. He looks around some, picks out a truck, and says he wants to buy it. The salesman gave him a bit of a hard time, basically commenting that he didn't think the guy could afford the truck. Well, turns out this man owned multiple oil wells and was seven flavors of rich...he just liked to actually WORK on some of the wells he owned. Turns out he knew the owner of the dealership, so he just asked to see him, got his truck, and the salesman lost out on a rather nice commission, especially since the man always paid for the vehicle in full, with cash when he bought a new one. :p

I guess what I'm getting at is that in a perfect world it shouldn't matter how people dress, but the sad fact is that it does. Even I'm not immune to it. I make assumptions about people based on what they wear sometimes.

Since you're addressing what I've said, I'll reply to you directly.

I think some of the people missed the point again, like the one person talking about being the whitest black guy his friends knew...he's just one person doing this and the problem doesn't go away overnight. Does he have any other black friends who aren't dressing and acting different for the sake of standing out?

The problem here is that the person addressing me this way is not black. In other words, I have a person of majority race relaying this to me. His friends (multiple people) are referring to me this way. They are not the same race as me.

Whether or not I have 'black friends who aren't dressing and acting different for the sake of standing out' is immaterial to that, and I have many such friends. In fact, I could even say that all of my friends that happen to be that race, do not 'dress to stand out.' Which is ridiculous, because we ALL stand out because of our race, which cannot be taken off. This is exactly why I've been upset by this journal.

Why should you give people a hard time for how they dress in the first place? Why even give them a hard time for their differences? You have a choice in what you do. You don't just have simple autonomic responses like a nematode; you are a sapient being! Those things that were said to me, which hurt me because I was simply referred to by my race and not myself as an individual, were said because of conscious choices of people. Not all of my friends do this; it's just that a bunch have lately and it disturbs me. It disturbs me because we can do much better.

All of the context of the journal disgusts me, because the people subject to the prejudice are being blamed for the prejudice by being different. It's victim-blaming, full stop. I get the point of the journal. The point of the journal is offensive to me, and I quote this from Flynn's own clarification upthread:

The main topic, however, was about flaunting your race, gender or subculture in everyone's face and then getting butthurt when people judge you for it. You can't deliberately attract attention and then complain when people react because you're attracting attention. Now, you can judge the severity of their reaction, but not them having a reaction. If you go around emphasizing how different you are, then people are going to see that first, long before they look at you as a person. (emphasis mine)

Can you empathize with me for a little bit and see why I find this so wrong? Let me spell this out to you.

I didn't CHOOSE to be born with brown skin and 'African' features! I don't have a goddamn time machine to go back to the 1700s or 1800s or whenever, go to some place in western Africa (based on conjecture) and say, "Hey man you had better run far away because there are these big boats full of your people, and they're going to a place you're not going to like." Do you understand how offensive Flynn quoted statement is? I'm not TRYING to flaunt my race! And again I conform to this dominant culture!

And then how do people 'flaunt' gender? What is the deal here? How does this make any sense?! This is disgusting and dehumanizing, and most people are not acting like this. So why should we endorse people's prejudices? Clearly we are capable of not saying bigoted shit, clearly we can accept others since the presence of different cultures and subcultures, fashions, genders and orientations doesn't bother me! Nor does it bother most people, apparently! So why should it bother the rest of them?

Being bigoted is a conscious choice and we can expect better of people to make better choices. Difference is not bad because if it were, no cultures would include new things and there would not be multiracial people. We have sapient brains that allow us to take in new stimuli and meet new people. We are not like most animals, that have primitive brains that can't accept difference. (Even in nature, differences can and do get accepted, else we would never have symbiotic relationships).

More and more, it makes me recognize that it's the xenophobic, bigoted people that are the aberrations, the odd ones. Their minds are the ones that are primitive, not the ones that can accept differences.

Oh for fuck's sake Seth! I'm not talking about you! The topic was the people of any color or creed who go around dressing like a gangsta or whatever and making themselves stand out for no reason other than emphasizing their differences. But you can't even see that! You never even addressed that problem! All you've talked about is yourself.

Goddamn you have a serious persecution complex! You're not doing anything wrong. You have a pretty good life. If you're taking it personally when I'm talking about people whose behavior is nothing like yours, then maybe you need to see a counselor about this. I'm talking about people who are actively deharmonizing society with bad behavior and bad attitudes and all you can do is not listen, pull the race card, and talk about bigotry.

The only one fixating on the color of your skin in this entire topic is you.

I'm severely disappointed in you...and I'm done talking.

Yeah.
As I see it from he original post, the whole point is resting on the distinction between differences one can't change or affect (race, sex, sexual orientation, nationality) - if someone gives a person a hard time because of these, they are pretty much an asshole, and the differences one can affect (mode of dress, culture, behaviour, whatever) which, well, are fair game, because they actually speak about your choices and therefore about who you are as a person.

Anyone trying to turn this into "I obviously can't change my inborn traits and you're asking me to so fuck you." is being deliberately obtuse.

Dude...all anybody really needs to care about is whether someone is a good person or not.

If some guy wants to dress in heels and spandex and walk around Walmart, it's not my place to judge them.

If someone wants to change their physical gender, it's not my place to treat them differently.

If someone wants to move to this country and decides NOT to learn English, it's not my place to tell them otherwise.

Those are all choices, and they are all NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

I care only about whether is someone is kind and trustworthy. They can speak AAVE, or dress wildly, or pierce their skin, or dye their hair or whatever. I just assume they are living in a way that makes them feel most comfortable. I can at the very least not stare at them or tell them their fashion sucks or whatever.

Unfortunately, I'm not a 'cubi, a psyker or have any other mind-analyzing powers. And until then, looking at a person I don't know is going to have to be the base of getting my initial impression of them.

And honestly? One of your examples is very much not like the other. If someone moves into a country and can't be arsed to make an effort understanding the state language, it's absolutely not anyone's duty to go out of their way trying to do business with such a person.

Exactly my point. You're not a cubi or a psyker, so quit judging people by what you see and strike up a conversation with them.

And while language barriers can prevent meaningful communication which might very well prevent business, you still do not have the right to judge them and act like a jerk to people by screaming "This is Amurika! We speak ENG-LISH here!" as I've seen so many people do.

Uhh, I do have eyes, and a modicum of common sense.

And again, you do, in specific contexts.
When in Rome, do like a Roman and don't write "ROMANES EVNT DOMVS" on walls.
Because in the first place, coming somewhere and expecting people to be able to communicate with you because you graced their backwards country with your presence is being a jerk.

Yeah, about that...a selection of pictures from my city, in the United States:

http://www.bristolwood.net/wp-conte.....ct-5-small.jpg

http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/ima.....MG_4717TNT.JPG

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012.....04ca4a135f.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5219.....e8cdb8a5d8.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1ZWUmsOG-.....e+10-17-09.JPG

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This is a reflection of the immigrant tradition in the United States; all of these date from the 19th century except for the street signs in the first image. (The Irish came to Buffalo starting mid-19th century however.)

And one of the reasons that this is embraced here in the United States is that there actually isn't a state language. You can get your government documents in a multitude of languages, in fact. Passports in the United States actually display information (like the signature statement) in English, French and Spanish. Many government websites have information in different languages. (e.g. http://www.irs.gov/Spanish )

The United States also includes areas that have a majority of speakers that are Spanish (notably Guam and Puerto Rico). Accordingly, we have ability for them to file their taxes like so:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040pr.pdf

This is a long tradition of diversity in the languages spoken in the United States. It is truly an interesting place! Though not unusual for having multiple languages spoken.

TBH, that's absolutely weird.

I mean, here, in places with very big minority populations (Hungarians, specifically) there are provisions for them made, such as two-language signs (all around Galanta, our district capital, for example) and certain official documents can be, in those places, available in Hungarian as well as Slovak.
However, that's a local property of places that have a big concentration of them, not something that's universal - and in general you are expected to carry out official communication in the state language.

It's one of the things that makes the United States very special. This is in fact a very cosmopolitan nation. You can find similar things in Canada as well.

Actually, a lot of countries (like Japan) have dual signage in English and Japanese too. The United States is just special in that it has no official (state) language. Indeed, when you come to the United States, you can speak in whatever language you like, and many communities became comfortable enclaves of immigrant culture as a result. Right now in my city, continuing that trend of immigration from the mid-19th century, we have Somali, Ethiopian and Myanmarese immigrats. So we will see some signs in their languages as well.

This is a long-standing tradition in the USA! In fact there are places in the United States that have never, ever spoken English.

Let's go into this "deliberately obtuse" bit since you have the luxury of handwaving my experience in this.

That 'distinction' is a distinction without a difference, because of the context of how the "sagging pants" were brought into the discussion. First of all, the journal starts off name-dropping races. Then we get this context:

Now, if that person has a ghetto shirt and a gold chain and his pants sagged down to his fucking knees...yeah, I'm gonna notice that! He could be black, white, hispanic, anything...doesn't matter. It's not his color or origin that's making him stand out, it's his dress. It's his attitude. This person is clearly odd. They're dressing and behaving in a manner that sends up a red flag of "wtf?".

I want you to note that all of those ideas are subjective, as has been pointed out frequently. There is no standard as to what a 'ghetto shirt' is, nor is there a standard length for sagging. I have also pointed out that this is not even odd as many people adopt this fashion. It is a fashion fad akin to any number of fads that have come and gone in society. But here is where the context turned for me. Because I want you to know, I was thinking, "Okay, this person hates sagging in this journal, whatever, alright." up to this point.

Now we add this loading:
In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE.

This is the attitude that really made me sad, because in the United States, to be treated like a minority is to be oppressed. I want you to note something, as you have said above in another post, you are from the Slovak Republic.

In the United States, one of the constitutional rights that all Americans have is freedom of expression. Purportedly, this makes the United States special by enshrining this as a right, found in the First Amendment. This means that, unless laws (or rules on private property) prohibit a particular expression (such as running about naked), we in fact do have the freedom to dress as we wish.

Because of the races called out in the beginning of the journal, we have a very nasty context involved here. This is where I got sad, because what it means is that you can be an American citizen, but if your expressions do not line up with what the majority culture (whatever that is, as America is actually very diverse) directs, you automatically give license to people to abuse you. I want to make this perfectly clear; at no point did I say people had to like you. But 'treated like a minority' is about an action.

That directly contradicts that portion of the First Amendment; and indeed history shows us that Americans have long been able to display and dress according to their culture of origin (as the USA is a country largely composed of immigrants).

I then became upset with this:
Sure, you go to their quarters and you'll see their culture...but it's not in your face. It's not flaunted in public. This is how you achieve an end to racial prejudice.
(emphasis mine)

So now we have the context, and I am livid. Because now Flynn has invoked race, adjacent to a statement of "flaunting" culture, I then pointed out (as others like me have pointed out) that it matters not what my dress will be; I will still have negative actions (whether harrassment, disrespectful statements, or outright atrocity) committed against me, as I also demonstrated.

Further clarifications did in fact outline to me that this was not just about 'subculture' but it was in fact due to things that could not be changed. Observe Flynn's clarification:

The main topic, however, was about flaunting your race, gender or subculture in everyone's face and then getting butthurt when people judge you for it. You can't deliberately attract attention and then complain when people react because you're attracting attention. Now, you can judge the severity of their reaction, but not them having a reaction. If you go around emphasizing how different you are, then people are going to see that first, long before they look at you as a person.

I want to point out something to you.

Someone being different from me gives me no license to disrespect, accost or otherwise berate that person. I am entitled to think what I want about them. But the other things I spoke of are actions, and they are actions in the United States that are part and parcel of ethnic and racial discrimination. There are myriad abuses visited upon cultural (ethnic) and racial groups in the United States due to this kind of mindset.

This is why I reject the notion of the person being insulted as being responsible for someone getting offended by their existence. Someone looking or speaking differently from you, whether by clothing or by race, does not give you carte blanche to abuse that person.

I want you to note that all of those ideas are subjective, as has been pointed out frequently. There is no standard as to what a 'ghetto shirt' is, nor is there a standard length for sagging. I have also pointed out that this is not even odd as many people adopt this fashion. It is a fashion fad akin to any number of fads that have come and gone in society. But here is where the context turned for me. Because I want you to know, I was thinking, "Okay, this person hates sagging in this journal, whatever, alright." up to this point.

Come on. Sure, there is no standard but you know it when you see it.

Because of the races called out in the beginning of the journal, we have a very nasty context involved here. This is where I got sad, because what it means is that you can be an American citizen, but if your expressions do not line up with what the majority culture (whatever that is, as America is actually very diverse) directs, you automatically give license to people to abuse you. I want to make this perfectly clear; at no point did I say people had to like you. But 'treated like a minority' is about an action.
For some reason, I think you are reading far too much into the bit here - what I think they were pointing at was the sort of people who make no effort at fitting in, then complain about everyone treating them the way they do. And, nice or not, it's the factual state of matters.



That directly contradicts that portion of the First Amendment; and indeed history shows us that Americans have long been able to display and dress according to their culture of origin (as the USA is a country largely composed of immigrants).

Being able to do something still does not protect you from disapproval


So now we have the context, and I am livid. Because now Flynn has invoked race, adjacent to a statement of "flaunting" culture, I then pointed out (as others like me have pointed out) that it matters not what my dress will be; I will still have negative actions (whether harrassment, disrespectful statements, or outright atrocity) committed against me, as I also demonstrated.

Now, this is true, and the claim that it's what it takes to end racial prejudice is rather grandiose and stupidly oversimplified - among other things, it's not going to happen. So yes, I concede that one. (However, what needs to be pointed out is that they never condoned the sort of negative actions that happened to you - in fact the whole journal speaks against them, as opposed to the sort of thing which has basis in the person's action)

Someone being different from me gives me no license to disrespect, accost or otherwise berate that person. I am entitled to think what I want about them. But the other things I spoke of are actions, and they are actions in the United States that are part and parcel of ethnic and racial discrimination. There are myriad abuses visited upon cultural (ethnic) and racial groups in the United States due to this kind of mindset.

Sorry, but let's go back to the original point. Dressing like a street thug is not a part of an ethnic... and if people avoid or not trust someone on the basis of that, it's completely reasonable. After all, they just might turn out to be, you know, a street thug.

I want to point out that I have said many times in this exchange that it is fine to be disliked. The problem is when that dislike has been translated into action. Second, what constitutes a "street thug" is always racially based in the United States, because it has only been certain racial minorities that are considered 'thugs' when wearing the particular outfit.

That is why so many people are upset in this thread, and have been upset with the sentiments of your posts. I note again, a 'thug' is denoted by his or her actions, not by dress, because the 'street style' is extremely common in the USA. Numerous people of all walks of life sag their jeans and I will guarantee you that they are not treated the same in the USA because they have not lived here.

Second, 'street thugs' do not automatically attack every person they encounter or that encounter them just by nature of wearing a hoodie, T-shirt and jeans (sagged or not).

Even then, I am pointing this out to you, because I am not sure if you have ever had the experience of a minority group in the United States of America. To be a minority group in the United States is a situation where oppression occurs, where violence is visited upon you or taken a blind eye to, and where you receive worse (and sometimes no) protection under the law. This is not just a simple 'dislike,' which is all well and good. I am actually fine with people hating others and I am glad when people are open about their hatred and dislike of minority groups, it allows me to give them a wide berth so I don't have to pollute their sight with my presence. But in the United States, this dislike is often translated into action. Fortunately the actions happen much less than in the past.

...and this is why I didn't want to reply at first. Did you read what I said and think about it or just automatically take it as an attack on you? You are a single person and are a prime example of what I think they were trying to say. The fact that the person addressing you was white is PART OF THE PROBLEM! I'm not trying to say they aren't or support that sort of behavior. Pretty sure I didn't say anything of the sort.

To answer your question, no. I don't understand how a statement not aimed at you, talking about you, or referring to anyone you know can be offensive to you personally. That was why I started my comment talking about how I think people were missing the point and I feel you still are. It's not about you. It's about people who deliberately go out of there way to make themselves stand out and the thought that maybe they are contributing to the problem.

I think they covered how you can flaunt gender rather nicely. I've personally seen women in tiny skirt or VERY low cut tops getting mad when they get stared at, despite the fact they are exposing themselves. Or to use the other side, men with incredibly tight clothing. No one said the majority was, just that it was there and it was a problem. Again, I believe you are missing the point here.

I fully agree. Bigotry is a choice, though some people learn it and have a hard time unlearning it. Dead dogma and such is a hard thing to break away from sometimes.

The sad fact is that normal is defined by the majority and I think just enough people have issues to make it a problem. Hopefully, you will read this and understand what I was saying before when I used your comments as an example of how the point is being missed though about what the aim of this all was.

I think what you're not getting is that Seth knows exactly what you're saying and isn't agreeing with you. I don't agree with it either. I don't see what you are saying as being what is actually happening in the real world.

I will say simply that race and culturalism are different but interlinked, sadly so. I am a white male in his 30's who wears glasses; because of this, I frequently have people take it for granted I am innately intelligent on some given subject, just as you stated earlier someone wearing the gold bling and showing off their underwear is expected to fit into a certain stereotype.

I prefer to judge people based on their actions, not their dress. If I saw your human self walking down the street, I'd wave and say hi, and go from there. If you were wearing a shirt that stated "Autobots suck Vacuum" I might figure you a transformers fan, but beyond that I'd still simply consider you a fellow person, worthy of respect and compassion unless you acted otherwise.

That is being fairly ingenious. Thing is, dressing yourself is an action, and one that tells fuckloads about you. Which is for example why you wear suit or formal dress to job interviews - the people who can't be arsed to are justifiably automatically looked down on to as someone not willing to put in effort to make a good appearance, which suggests they likely aren't willing to do the same in other areas, such as actually working.

but that can be misleading as well; growing up my father worked in radio, and I routiunely knew people who had 7 or more figures behind their names dressed in tattered jeans and worn T-shirts, as they were comfortable vs. being formal.

I didn't realize we had dress codes :|

You must be unemployed, then.

...and yes, there is such a thing as "dressing normal". I'm absolutely dumbfounded that so many people apparently don't see this in their everyday lives, when it's literally everywhere. In fact, I'm willing to bet you yourself wear a tee and jeans, or shorts, or a tank top, or camo pants, or slacks, or a hoodie, or something else that's a hallmark of common American dress.

Everyone notices when someone dresses in gang attire.

Everyone notices when someone walks around in a robe.

Everyone notices when someone emphasizes their subculture.

The amazing thing is...people act like somehow me pointing this out is making it happen, which is so incredibly laughable. All those people you see everyday dressed in jeans and tees and shorts and casual shirts...they're all dressing similarly because they all want to be part of this greater community. Because it gives them so many more people to relate to and feel comfortable around. It's social evolution, and it's all about leaving behind superficial distinctions.

It's starting with America most visibly, but the whole world has the internet, and it's just going to continue. Gender is becoming less important. Race is becoming less important. Eventually, we won't even care about orientation or country of origin.

We'll just be people.

Oooooh, ouch. Insult thoroughly noted!

But we'll go with your assumption and assume I'm unemployed.

I'm actually really new to this new type of prejudice. I grew up on old fashion racism and sexism. With both on the decline I think its only natural we as 'muricas find something new to hate each other with. Culturalism is brilliant. It never crossed my mind to group cultures together like this for the sole purpose of dividing the people of this country in a new way. Living abroad for a good portion of my life and seeing how different cultures live and interact, and how different they all are I can definitely agree that these people do not all conform to the "t-shirt and jeans" 'murican standard. Like you said before, different is definitely bad.

But as this is kind of perplexing for me, as I've never been one to categorize people, I'm a little confused as to how the whole culture and clothing thing goes. I do have a few questions I will need to ask so I can become a gainfully employed conforming, normal 'murican.

Assuming I'm unemployed and do happen to land a job interview, do I wear said T-shirt and jeans to my interview? I was always told I needed to dress up and look professional when trying to land a job. Maybe this is why I'm still unemployed.

I'm a little confused on the 'ghetto clothes' thing. Aren't 'ghetto clothes' t-shirt, jeans and hoodies too? I do wear these items from time to time and I do NOT want to be mistaken for a gang member. Am I now, due to my clothing, already in a gang? Should I be worried about rival gang members? If I wear a gold necklace what is the maximum allowed length and width before its considered a 'ghetto chain'. This is all very worrisome.

Am I allowed to make food based on my heritage and traditional family recipes? If I do, do I need to eat them in private?

If my religion has stipulations as to what I wear, do I need to give up said religion to be a proper 'murican?

I do have a small bit of advice for you though, as a crusader for a new and fascinating new form of discrimination. If you want anyone to actually take you seriously, you may want to choose your words a little better. I think I get the hint of what you're trying to say, but you just come off as a the stereotypical close-minded 'murica with entitlement issues. Starting your original post with "Now, I think we can all agree that racism is wrong." and then ending it with "Act like it, fucknuggets." isn't going to get any rational point across. Also, opening yourself up for debate, the insulting everyone who disagrees with you is the truly laughable part of all this.

Social evolution is coming together and NOT discriminating against one another, not find new ways to do it. I certainly hope one day you get a chance to see the world for what it really is. There is a whole big world out there outside the US, you are focus far too much on small, in significant details of your fellow human beings.

Many of us don't. Flynn does.

Kinda wanna sag my pants now. Looks horribly awful, but if it keeps people like this away......wooo weee!

The intolerance is strong with this one. The dogma is even stronger.
You're only comfortable where everyone dresses and acts like you do. The only place you're going to find that is the military. Go join. Now.

Yes sir/madam, I will pretend to be an intersexed dragon with pink hair on the internet like all good American citizens do.

Who gave Alex Jones an FA account?

if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE.



Woooooooooooooooooooooow

It's almost like the person writing this is completely out of touch and wants everyone to be whitewashed. Shocking

Hey look, another racist!

American isn't "white", it's American. Everyone contributed. Grow up.

Yeah thanks for proving again that you don't have a clue.

Okay, I don't know which version of whitewashing you're referring to, so I want to make sure.

An old version of whitewashing refers to the fence treatment and means making everything more the same, in which case the term homogeny would be more current (this is a really old term, and not really in use in modern culture. I actually had to look it up). If this is the case, then yes, I am talking about homogeny.

If you mean the current slang whitewashing, which means "making everything more white", then that would be racist.

You're calling me racist when you're the one whos saying non-whites should start acting like white people? Is this some sort of post-ironic meta-troll journal?

I mean, if people of other cultures make you uncomfortable just say so and get on with it m8

"...acting like white people"

Yep, confirmed racist. Feels weird to be guilty of racism when trying to turn a topic about any people being culturally obnoxious into racism, doesn't it?

Also yes, you're absolutely right! Making a journal about offensive culture does allow all the secretly bigoted people on FA to turn it into racism. It's a trap, and look how many people fell for it!

Now everyone who read this and really understood it, knows just how many racists there actually are on FA.

Welcome to being exposed, everyone. :)

Jesus, what a liar you are. You didn't like the audience reaction, so now you're changing the narrative. No, your comments do not in any way support this new version of events, and no one is fooled except those whose reading comprehension chips weren't properly seated in the first place.

I see this behavior from fundies on religious sites all the time. They'd rather burn down the whole place than modify their arguments and suffer the unspeakable-to-their-minds social stigma of being mistaken or even just tone-deaf about something. Here's the thing, though: what you're making up, right here? This is far worse than being wrong. This is you claiming that you don't even debate in good faith to begin with, which, thanks to the revisionism, would hold true whether or not you were telling the truth.

You just told people that, rather than practice swimming laps to develop a better time, you'd rather shit in the pool and then not try very hard, because then all those who do participate will inhale your feces and you'll "win anyway". Congratulations.

You think I'm lying? Have you actually read a lot of these replies?

Seriously, I want you to go back through and see for yourself how many people speaking here have very racist views, or make very racist or sexist comments.

This whole thing saddens me, because frankly everyone was going to agree with the original post, but in that same original post of Flynn's, she was the one that brought up race and ethnicity.

I respond with my experience and how avoiding sagging still subjects me to discrimination results in me being "race carded." For that I am so hoping I am one of the "racists" she's referencing.

Nobody cares what race Flynn is. They care that she said something very bigoted and hurtful, and instead of walking it back or even deleting it, or even just being graceful and saying "Okay I see where I could be wrong." Instead of taking the "L" she's doubled, tripled, quadrupled, even quintupled down, and has been lying on top of it.

I repeat. Nobody is making issue of Flynn or anyone else on her side being white. Lots of scolds are free to be mad about sagging. People are calling this journal racist because of these lines, which I am again excerpting.

In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE. Srsly, you can buy a shirt and jeans from Wal-Mart for like 20 bucks. Go do it.
Sure, you go to their quarters and you'll see their culture...but it's not in your face. It's not flaunted in public. This is how you achieve an end to racial prejudice.
For anyone who would read this and bitch about how I'm telling them to "give up their culture" when they're in public, well...you're right! You're not Mexican! You're not African! You're not South American! You're not Canadian or Columbian or Jamaican or Indian or Israeli or Pakistani or Vietnamese or Japanese! YOU. ARE. A. UNITED. STATES. CITIZEN.

Remember, this is the original post, the actual journal. You can see clearly that race and ethnicity are invoked.

Because Flynn is continuing to cosign these statements, THEN people are saying she's bigoted and racist. (Well, I didn't call her bigoted and racist but she says I played the race card). And you know what cements it? When Flynn clarifies with this comment:

The main topic, however, was about flaunting your race, gender or subculture in everyone's face and then getting butthurt when people judge you for it. You can't deliberately attract attention and then complain when people react because you're attracting attention. Now, you can judge the severity of their reaction, but not them having a reaction. If you go around emphasizing how different you are, then people are going to see that first, long before they look at you as a person.

THIS is why people are upset with Flynn. Her saying otherwise in subsequent journals is a goddamn lie and this is sick and disgusting. I'm fucking pissed off with this cheap mendacity of revising the journal like this.

I saw that troll journal with the 'black guy' telling people to pull their pants up. You know, the pull your pants up challenge. Know why people aren't angry with him? Because he's not saying shit like
The main topic, however, was about flaunting your race, gender or subculture in everyone's face and then getting butthurt when people judge you for it.

It's not that hard to say a point without being hurtful!

Yes, I do mention race, but I don't put any race in a derogatory light. That would be racism. Let me get the dictionary...

As a noun: "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races"

As a verb: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"

So in order for something to be racist, I have to be doing one of the following:

A. Targeting specific races for the purpose of establishing them as inferior.

B. Glorifying my own ethnic background.

Therefore, nothing I said in my post was racist. Now let's look at bigoted:

"intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself"

Talking out against dress and mannerisms is not speaking against an opinion, and that doing so contributes to segregation and social tension in a fact. Now, in most of my replies to people, I tried to stick to facts over opinions. Social evidence. I don't think I expressed any intolerance toward opinions, with the exception of ones that were just hairing off into delusions with no basis in reality (which I think is fair to argue).

Now, there is something I will admit to. No, I wasn't racist or bigoted, but I did skirt that line without ever actually going there. Have you ever seen one of those spy movies where they're trying to lure out the bad guys? They have to go right to edge - without quite going over it - in order to get the villain to react enough to expose themselves. To appear like you could be inviting a certain kind of commentary, but not actually doing so, and then seeing how many people go in that direction. Yes, it is entrapment.

However, how many racists comments do you think that video is going to get? I'm betting either none or no more than one hand's worth. Racists are surprisingly good at hiding these days, especially in furry. I've been fishing this topic for a long time, in little ways, but I finally decided...I wanted to know. Not a guess, but for sure.

Was there a point to this? I'd like to think so. First of all, it turned out to be something a lot of people had wanted to see said, in plain words, because it was something they've been having to deal with but never felt they could speak out on (kind of emphasizes the idea of an intimidation culture existing). Second, some people here might not have been fully aware of their own racism, sexism or whatever. Now it's out there. Maybe it'll shock them into checking themselves. As for the people who just want to hate...well, now people know who to avoid.

Virtually all progress comes through confrontation.

Now that the reality of this journal has been firmly established, I'd like to talk to you. As my friend. (P.S. I am sorry I got so flustered with you. 200+ replies...omg...)

You really do fixate on your race a lot, Seth. It doesn't matter if you get snide comments from some a-holes, you should never feel any kind of guilt or regret for who you are. What you are. Frankly, I think you're a damn amazing person. I may be frustrated by what society does to me for being intersex, or judges me for it, but I never lament being intersex. Neither should you lament yourself, or even give the appearance of lamenting yourself.

Fuck the haters. Your friends know how awesome you are, and other people do too, even if they don't always show it.

You truly are not seeing why people are upset. On top of this you are completely unable to empathize with me.

Second, choosing to dress in a particular manner of dress would be like an opinion would be considered bigoted. Even then, using your dictionary definition, you were bigoted towards others when they said, "Hey, I find your journal offensive."

Third, I don't believe you that the journal had this after-the-fact purpose since you deliberately trolled after creating it. You knew what you said and you doubled down on it. And you know how I know it was bullshit? Because you "race-carded" me after I told you several times that it doesn't matter whether or not I or any other black in this country sags or doesn't sag his jeans. You went on to minimize and handwave my experience in this. You are completely unable to empathize with my situation.

You are unable to empathize with the other members of racial and ethnic minorities (not just me) whom are sharing their experiences with you and telling you, "No, adopting your blue jeans-and-t-shirts kind of frame is not reducing the abuse we get." You deliberately ignored them.

I'm also going to guarantee, just going by the FA demographics, that 90% of the people in opposition to you on this journal, are 'white.' You lied and characterized them as 'anti-white racists.' That is a disgusting, unfair lie! You are not arguing in good faith, and 95% of the people (that is, those that were just angry off the bat and decided to troll) are arguing in good faith.

You notice that you didn't get this level of heat from your second journal, but you did in the first? You know why you did in the first? You brought up race and ethnicity in the first place. And you cannot possibly be unable to know what "In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE. " signifies to people.

But hey there's something new for me to be angry about as you have yet again handwaved me.

You really do fixate on your race a lot, Seth.

You have amazing chutzpah to write this to me. I correctly pointed out that my race means that I do not get insulated from discrimination and disrespect. Other people pointed this out. I am absolutely, totally disgusted and hurt that you would say something like this to me.

The only reason I talked about race and ethnicity at all was because of you injecting race and ethnicity into the discussion in the first place. And I had never even called you racist! You look at my journals on FA. I NEVER talk about my race here. I don't even have any badges for the cultural groups on FA because I have not joined such.

As a matter of fact I stopped talking to you because you not only 'race carded' me but then told me you're 'through talking.' My race is not some goddamn card in a deck that I can play to 'win' an argument, and if there was a race card, you were the one that pulled it out in the first place in your OP. At no point did I even invoke or even allude to your race, and that is true for almost everyone arguing against you in this journal!

But you don't care, at all. You are not even willing to consider what those sentiments I quoted from your journal mean to people in the USA. Racial and ethnic minorities all. Dissertations have been written about why what you are saying is wrong. Numerous people have told you their experiences, written paragraph after paragraph, and you. Just. Don't. Care.

Do you realize that the premise behind your argument against sagging, is the same one that was used to "steer" my mother away from buying a house in the suburbs? That it's used as an excuse to deny GLBT the right to adopt children? That it's used for, say, certain Muslims in Iraq to commit atrocities against the natively Christian population there? That's what people were trying to get you to say.

I can't even make this pithy and not tl;dr. I know a lot of people don't care. I get that. But I was really hoping you would care.

Third, I don't believe you that the journal had this after-the-fact purpose since you deliberately trolled after creating it. You knew what you said and you doubled down on it.
This is just you making an assumption, probably because you've seen other people do it. Honestly, this is like the fifth time I've pulled something like this on FA alone (I'm surprised more people aren't catching on), you just haven't known me that long. It might interest you to know that the people who have known me a long time expected something was up with this journal, and that I might be fishing, or they were at least suspicious. I have a (admittedly deserved) reputation for being a very, very devious troll among those who know me well, and I go all the way for results. So...don't judge just because you don't know me well enough. Keep watching, and you'll see me do more things of this sort. And amazingly, I bet people will keep falling for it. Maybe even the same people (a couple of the ones in here, in fact, I've trapped on a related topic in the past).

It was also true that I wanted to discuss the topic of people dressing like cultural stereotypes or being deliberately flippant to where they live, and also the consequences of choice, but I could have done that with about 1/4 that much text (as I did in later journals, just for the people who wanted to keep discussing it and not wade through 200+ replies). Does this mean I'm devious? Yes it does. I don't pretend not to be.

I NEVER talk about my race here.
Now let's stop and be reasonable for a moment.
a culture that had only valued my ancestors even 3 generations ago (My family is Southern in origin) as cheap or slave labor
I get regarded as "the whitest black guy here."
I can't bleach this goddamn melanin out of my skin! I can't get plastic surgery to remove my African features
I am considered, at best, a 'black guy.'
because then I, as a black man
I didn't CHOOSE to be born with brown skin and 'African' features!
You did mention your race a lot, as I've just shown. No matter what, you have to admit I would have a good reason for at least taking notice of how many times you said it. I not sure why you'd be angry at me for pointing out something you actually did. :/

And I had never even called you racist!
Not directly, no. Certainly not in any intentional way. So not racist per se...it was more like I had this increasing impression from you that I was supposed to be either focusing on or acknowledging your race or something. I hit on the topic of culturalism to bring out the racists, but I never made it about any particular race or creed. Honestly, your comments were very hard to read into, and I tried.

My race is not some goddamn card in a deck that I can play to 'win' an argument
Then why mention it all those times I listed above? Now, it didn't seem like you were trying to win anything, so I would agree with that...but what was this about? As far as I can tell the only thing you kept saying was - and correct me if I'm wrong - that "sometimes people still get judged or fucked with for the color of their skin no matter how they dress or act". I...would agree? I don't recall ever saying that wasn't true, and I've made it very clear that targeting people just for being their race is wrong.

and if there was a race card, you were the one that pulled it out in the first place in your OP
Technically no. I did use an example, but then I said that person could be of any race and the same reaction would be there, which is true. Because I had to compare presentation, I had to have an example. This part is kind of a catch 22. If I said the person was white, everyone would get the second part, but since there's pictures of me on FA identifying me as "white", they would laugh at the first example. "Of course the first person isn't going to be noticed, they're the same race as you." Instead of getting the racists to trigger, this would make them laugh and not take me seriously. I honestly don't think it would have been any easier if the initial example had been hispanic or asian. If I had made the person generic, it wouldn't have triggered people with racist leanings toward racism (psychology is tricky, especially for people good at hiding the bad shit).

You lied and characterized them as 'anti-white racists.'
Out of context interpretation. Also not a lie in context. This was specifically referring to the people who actually did make a racist or prejudiced white reference themselves, in their own words. I believe there was about four of them, but I'm not exactly going to shout out specific names in a journal. That typically gets journals removed by the admins.

But I was really hoping you would care.
I do care, Seth. If I didn't, would I be trying to talk this out with you? This journal is over and done. I've spent hours here typing to you because I care. Unlike the hatey people I was trying to draw out of the woodwork, I was caught off guard when you got involved so deeply, but then some of the haters started playing off of your posts, and...okay, I did make one unfortunate mistake.

I love surprising people too much. Hell, I like trolling a bit too much. I admit to that flaw. Most of my close friends were suspicious (which is why they waited and watched instead of commenting), but I didn't tell them in advance what I was actually doing. I probably should have. When I saw your first post, that was the only moment where I went "Well...shit". I should have told you early on once you got involved. But there were a hundred more replies, I was trying to marathon them while the iron was hot, and I wound up distracted. Yes, that does sound pretty bad of me. Honestly, if you want to be angry at me for not getting you in on it when I had the chance...that's fair. That's my fault. Though, after you'd already read it and replied, would you have believed a Note saying "I'm trolling for racists?" Or would you have thought I was trying to placate you? :/

Fine, whatever. You're trolling. Good on you for screwing with people, I guess. Everyone needs a hobby.

I just want to point something out. You know what I meant when I said "You look at my journals on FA. I NEVER talk about my race here." I don't write journals about my race. I don't even engage people on political issues here. My journal updates are about my comics and signal boosts for people I've heard about. Because this journal is the sum total of my discussion of my race on FA. And the only reason I spoke up was because of considering you a friend, and needing to speak up to say, "Hey, what you are saying is hurting me."

Actually if you had sent me a note saying "I'm trolling for racists," I probably would've believed you. But honestly, you know how I'm able to troll for racists? Just existing, because they just can't help but share their beliefs to me. My reputation precedes me; I don't get angry at people saying things like this in public. Heck, I wasn't even angry at you until you handwaved my experience with 'race card.'

Then I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you were getting at, and went to the wrong conclusion.

It's alright then. I forgive you.

In fact, here's some examples of me doing this very kind of trolling hot-topic thing several times before...and some of the same people who fell for those too (look for their names in this journal).

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5964612/ Successful! More or less.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5965037/ Unsuccessful, but some great responses.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5818502/ Unsuccessful. I blatantly tried to get the SJWs and nasty types out of the woodwork with this one, but they're smarter than I expected.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5441422/ Unsuccessful, but damn good replies here! This was right after "the big rape debate" on FA.

In fact, I used current events a lot, without ever actually referencing them. I was going for the timing. If you're trying to expose the nasties, you've got to hit them at a weak moment, like when they're fired up about something related.

Second, choosing to dress in a particular manner of dress would be like an opinion would be considered bigoted.

Typing angry breaks my syntax sometimes. Insert the revision for the above paragraph.

----

Second, choosing to dress in a particular manner is a form of opinion since it is expression. Demeaning that would, under that dictionary definition, be considered bigoted.

Bigotry in the USA is also apparently used as a catch-all-term for prejudice, but trying to make it less...'overused' of a term? I don't know why. I used that context though as it was used in general USA usage. So I'll stand corrected on saying that those statements were bigoted. They merely reflected prejudice against ethnicity and race, under the framework of your clarification.

>>>/stormfront/

Whitewashing is actually something that people do while painting. I more took this meaning as making everything the same as opposed to literally everything becoming white.

They didn't make that clear, so...I can't tell. You could be right? I don't know terminology from however long ago.

It's actually current terminoloy, thankfully. It's a very helpful process, but I guess that's getting off topic! lol

Okay no, seems I had it right. whitewash itself is no longer in common use, which is why I've never heard of it.

On the other hand, Urban Dictionary lists whitewashing as "Someone who is looked at as leaving behind or neglecting their culture and assimilating to a white, western culture."

I suppose maybe not to some people! I preoccupy myself with a bit more agricultural activities, and whitewash is still used, at least near the facility that I have observed and assisted in maintaining.

Oh, well, from the urban dictionary standpoint, that seems like your ideal-- save to replace "white, western" with "American" (which is a white, and western culture. ) so ultimately not far off?

"American...which is a white, western culture". Wow you're also amazingly racist.

LOL. I'm sorry, what? Tongue-in-cheek statement and accusations of reverse racism aside, the American "culture" is basically what you make of it. I realize you state you're willing to be kind to people in gneeral, and you absolutely are able to make the choice to treat people how you like based on how they dress and act.

At present, we're the offspring of a bunch of ex-pats which chose to move to another place in the world (for multiple reasons.) I'm fairly certain you recall American history well enough to know what happened, after we arrived, to those races that were already here before we got here. I realized we formed our own country, but at our core, we're only the way we are because of the people who got here first (mostly white, some protestant or Catholics). If it had truly been another country settling first, and everything working out the way it did for America, what do you think this country would be like? And that is where the entitlement for people to act and behave in a way you perceive to be nationally good and correct kind of strikes me as shocking. ( Please understand, I'm very much a "don't tread on me"/camo-wearing/cheeseburger eating/'Merican flag wavin' and protectin'/huntin'/shootin'/fishin'/horseback ridin'/tractor driving/pickup truck loving type of person. ) I love my country, and I am sad to see this kind of conversation about it.

On that note, contributions to our society from other cultures are great. We have all kinds of regions of different accents, slang, clothes, food (omfg food though!), weird quirks, and lifestyles in this country. All of them are interesting to see, and no single one is "correct."

whoops. general*

and realize* Yep. I'm going to go to bed. Hah. I might as well be typing with hamburger helper mitts on!

In your own words: "American" (which is a white, and western culture.)

Labeling American as "white culture" is absolutely racist. That's not an "accusation", you just said it! :D

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying people shouldn't dress like negative stereotypes, or adopt threatening dress/mannerisms just to intimidate others, or walk around constantly giving their country of residence the proverbial finger. There are ways to do that that don't involve being a constant disruption or outright insulting to everyone around you. That's just being an asshole. :/

If I had a way to express some sarcasm online with just a symbol, sweet baby Jesus, I'd use it so hard. It seems to be missed so often.

I am fairly sure I just explained why America is not exclusive to white culture. Maybe twice?

My pants were way too big, because I lost a ton of weight and I didn't have a lot of money. (Same with hoodies, t-shirts, etc.) They were baggy. They sagged. I probably looked like a stereotype, but shit-- I wasn't giving my country the proverbial finger. I can't run out and buy new clothes every time I lose weight. I know you say " Pants are just $20 at walmart. It's cool. " but sometimes people don't have $20. I'm tall, and they don't carry pants long enough for me. There's all kinds of reasons people do what they do. Maybe they've got on hand-me-downs that are too big but it's what they can afford.

Threatening mannerisms should never be adopted. These are generally public disturbances of the peace, or just being an asshole in general.

This conversation makes my head hurt. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because I can't wrap my head around labelling people like you do. Life is hard enough for people already. Don't let judgment of others make it worse for you or them.

Just because you want everyone's culture to be homogenized doesn't mean THEY want it. Your opinions on how people should act aren't law and hopefully you'll never be in a position of power high enough to enforce those views. The real world doesn't exist in a vacuum where one simple thing will fix everything and your "proposed solutions" just scream out white-privilege (even though I hate the term).

And besides, this whole journal sounds like you're trying to justify cops shooting unarmed black kids "who are acting black". Lmao go back to fucking Stormfront or some other racist echo chamber where everyone will agree with you

IT ISN'T ABOUT WHAT "I" WANT

People are already choosing this. It's happening all over the country, entirely on it's own. This "American majority" composed of all races, sexes and orientations I'm talking about? It already exists.

And they chose it. Because there is an American community. I sure as hell had nothing to do with that, and all these idiots replying to this journal acting like I'm somehow affecting that at all are seriously insane. Like they can deny reality by not believing me or calling me things. It's laughable. Everyone just wants to pull a race card or a nonconformist card or an oppression card and just talk out of their ass so that they can feel like they're defending something for high moral standards.

The American social majority is already happening. What it means is that the more obvious or belligerent subcultures are now becoming more and more noticeable. The more people that have formed this coherent American "theme" the more people who choose to deliberately fly in its face stand out. Tension therefore increases. And increases. This means that conflicts between the social majority and the cultural minority are only going to escalate the more time passes (which includes people of the same race hating each other across that line). Again, nothing you or I say is going to affect that.

It's inevitable.

What I'm saying is that these cultural minorities have a chance to stop being belligerent and try to get along more with the mainstream before it reaches that point. Before it starts taking a real toll in lives, much more than we've seen currently. Yes, they have a choice. Free will. But people have to understand that the ball is rolling on a unified America and it's not gonna stop. And choosing to cooperate with the social majority is not some horrible thing. We're still individuals. Nothing has changed that. We're just standing on common ground.

Sadly, I fear that things are going to get much worse before they get better, because most people won't understand my message here.

Ghetto (whatever that means) shirts, gold chains and saggy jeans are just as American as T-shirts and jeans. In fact, it's just about as American as you can get. Yes, it is a style most often worn by African-Americans, but it wasn't invented in Africa. It was invented right here in the USA.

Both of these outfits are completely American. You just so happen to like the one worn more by whites, and to dislike the one worn more by blacks. I know you say you're not racist, but that's a bit suspicious if you ask me.

PS. Monotonous dress codes have done nothing to address gender inequality. Female factory workers have been mandated to adopt the clothing of their male counterparts. That's not tearing down inequality, it's enforcing it. You are a male chauvinist. The fact that you recommend T-shirts and blue jeans, are stereotypical male clothes, shows this.

You're talking about the outfit without addressing the attitude. I dare you to show me one person who dresses like a gansta that doesn't have an attitude. Who doesn't adopt an abrasive manner of speech, a certain swagger, a kind of grating aspect to their personality, or a certain disrespect for others. I guarantee they'll have one of those, at the very least...because it's a subculture. Not just any subculture, but one geared toward social unrest and resentment.

All the other clothes I've listed ARE NOT WHITE, they're American. A common style of dress that people of all sexes and races are adopting to create more harmony, because they want to belong to overall American culture, and also because they think it looks cool.

My uterus also make your male chauvinist argument the dumbest thing ever.

You're actually the one who sounds racist and sexist.

1. You do not have to be a male to be a male chauvinist. "Male" in "male chauvinist" describes the type of chauvinism, not the gender of the beholder. Chauvinism is not a gender, it's an outlook and a social bias. I shouldn't have to explain that to you. I don't care what your gender is; the factory dress code example you gave, and the fact that you list stereotypical male clothing for all your examples shows you to be a sycophant of patriarchy. Sexism lives in your brain, not in your uterus, so your anatomy has precisely zero relevance here. And for your information, stereotyping gender with social outlook is sexist in itself, so watch what you say.

2. The gangsta style and subculture are indigenous to the USA. In your post you tell those who adopt such a style to dress like Americans. They are already dressing in a uniquely American style. Can you not see the problem with this?

3. Your "dare" seems to be base on anecdotes, but here it goes: I know / knew plenty of people who dress in that style. I grew up with them. I went to school with them. Until I started going to college in BC, I was one of them myself. If you think you know more about this "attitude" than I do, nothing I say will be able to change that. I've never encountered an attitude, but I don't treat people differently for how they dress. To so would be shallow and vain of me. It is naive to thing that these people just go around acting like dicks all the time. Try as you may to make the application of your stereotypes racially neutral, you have clearly been influenced by racist stereotypes. Why do I say that? A very large percentage (I don't know exactly, but certainly far more than the general population) of people who wear that style, including myself, if you are racist enough to care, are black. A few who I grew up with were Asian. Very few were white. That style of clothing is undeniably linked to black inner-city youth, and it originated in predominately black neighborhoods. By contrast, T-shirts originated in predominately white grounds - though there are exceptions, the military has long been a racially exclusive institution until very recently. Blue jeans too first gained popularity among (mostly white) workers in the American west. I invite you to look this up yourself if you don't still believe me. Button-up shirts and slacks aren't the only white dress out there. There are many styles that originated among mostly black populations, many styles that originated among mostly white populations, many styles that originated among racially diverse populations, and so on and so forth.

The way you single out a distinctly black style and target it as un-American (which is absurd, as I explained above) and hold a great many negative preconceptions about people who dress in that style mirrors the racially-charged stereotypical perceptions of the people who just so happen to originate that style.

If you treat people like "fucknuggets" because they're not "American" enough, and your post certainly makes it evident that you behave differently around people who wear a style you don't like, they are likely to be abrasive and grating towards you in return. That goes for anyone, any color, anywhere, wearing any clothing. That's not a matter of dress, that's a matter of social skills, and you might want to work on that if you wish to have a more pleasant experience interacting with those around you.

As for your calling me racist and sexist, you just sort of tagged it onto the end of you post as a meaningless insult. If you want me to take you seriously, you should provide reasoning for your arguments, which I have been doing all along.

plz excuse the typos, touchscreeens don't make good keyboards

Very complicated subject. I feel like "Culturalism" is taking the blame for the real problem, though. Culturalism in this discussion is like an innocent bystander taking fire.

People fear each other, and reasonably so. I'm scared of black people wearing sagging pants because I went to high school with them, and many were openly hateful to myself and others in some form - and I see what their music celebrates. Minorities are often afraid of policemen, and reasonably so, because policemen are more likely to take unreasonable aggressive action against them, I've seen it first hand. Whether they actually do or not isn't important - It's pattern recognition. This fear is reasonable.

But that doesn't mean that wearing strange things (or being different in any way) is inherently wrong and needs to stop. It just means it's scary. People who are wearing something different need to be understanding about how they make others around them feel, and make special effort to make people comfortable and accustomed to them. I love it so much when I see people open up this way - it's like the active opposite of racism and hate. It kills fear, and thus kills hate.

Uniforms are another way to fight fear, but I only see it as a short-term solution because it's impossible to force everyone into uniforms. It cannot happen, people do not accept it. That, and people don't gain "practice" in dealing with differences. People who are accustomed to uniformity won't know not to hate. Look at the 50's - if your family didn't have the right number of kids, your neighbors would give you dirty looks. And that's just the tip of that iceberg. Does anybody really want that?

So that leaves the question, what is the real problem and what's the proper way to deal with it?

Racism is only a small subset of an entire type of hate that is all just as bad as racism. Any time an entire group of people is demonized or painfully mocked for any reason, they need to be shamed. It's really that simple.

That's why I don't think you should be telling other people what they should wear.

A coworker of mine is a black dude who wears saggy pants. He knows a lot about classical music and he has a very small penis. Stereotypes are bad, mmmkay.

It's a blurry line between first impressions and extended hate.

I do not fully agree, but you do raise points worth discussion and examination.

Outward apperance, and choice of clothing IS an expression. If I want to seem friendly and casual, I will wear shorts and a pop culture tee. If I want to seem intimidating, I will wear spiked tire rubber shoulder pads and coal face paint. If I want to seem successful, I will wear a dapper suit with gloves.

and expression is like any form of communication, subject to hiccups in communication. useing an intimidating apperance to gain initial respect may instead be seen as a thrat or challange.

This actually goes deeper than that. Choosing to be a cultural minority, or to stand apart, is only escalating the tension with the social majority. Contrary to what a lot of loud, blind and ill-informed people in this journal have been saying, it's not a "white culture". It's a majority culture composed of every race, sex and background. An American culture, that came about through the action of the very melting pot the country embraced as an ideal.

By the way, I find it both sad and hilarious that the very "pipe dream" that America had been striving for, the thing so many people laughed at and so many people died for, is finally happening...and all these people can do is hate and bitch.

But, now that this new American culture actually exists and is growing by leaps and bounds, more pressure is on the culture minorities. America is finally becoming America...and that doesn't bode well for the people who want to constantly emphasize how much they stand apart.

My message is actually simple: "A little compromise saves lives." Meet halfway. Don't be belligerent for the sake of belligerence. Give a little to gain a lot. It doesn't mean giving up being an individual, it means becoming part of the new American culture, and that's not a bad thing.

It is important to stand apart, however. An effective skillset is strengthened by it's differences, and homogamy is not the answer. It is "American" to cling to the ideals of a melting pot, however, many flavors, vitamins, and (in breaking away from this metaphor,) skillsets and perspectives become lost when haphazardly melted, with majority flavors overpowering minor flavors.

But perhaps you have found the root of the cause of violent, criminal expression yes? There is greater pressure then ever to conform to a more corporate culture. It is as if those who cannot fit into a corporate ideal cannot survive and have a life free from need. And this pressure effects everyone, every culture- Even the traditionally american ideal of Middle Class Family-ism is under attack.

"A little compromise" is often a lot to ask, especially when it is asked by one who's idea of compromise is "fit in or get out." -But the idea of no longer expressing criminal culture is a good "little compromise" to have.

Ah-ah, careful. I am on board with what you're saying here, but don't put words in my mouth. Easily 90% of the replies to this journal are making that mistake. At no point in my post do I say "fit in or get out". Yes, I did say people in America should be an American first, and I said that dressing or acting like a belligerent minority will earn you a lot of negative attention and segregation...but I never said it was that or get out. It's more of along the lines of "if you don't compromise and adapt, you will face the consequences of your choice, and it's not going to do you any favors". It's not me doing anything, either...that's just what will happen. It's instinctually inevitable.

...and I think that's what a lot of people here really hate. They hate someone saying "hey, this perfect world you imagine where people just magically stop reacting to overt differences? It's a fantasy. Hasn't happened in the recorded history of ever. Not gonna happen now". It can be hard to accept that, especially in furry, which is pretty much about that ideal. It's hard to look at the world and see it not working, no matter how hard they've tried. So, as an alternative, here's a majority culture coming out of these different cultures that is letting people be more equal...but it's not a true tapestry. It's not an ideal. Everyone's kind of giving up a chunk of their past/ethnicity/whatever in favor of this new thing.

Is that bad? Honestly, I can't say. I like the idea of something new. Sure, the tapestry would be awesome...but it just doesn't work. :/

You speak from the mind, which is a good place to speak from. But it does not speak to the heart.

Humanity is essentially a being of the heart. We really are. And the heart is not a thing of logic, it is a thing of emotion, however irrational as they may be.

And the heart loves things, and holds onto them. The heart loves things familiar to it, and loves to feel like it is being spiritually enriching. Homogamy is a simple solution- When spoken to the mind. Everyone loves themselves though, loves the things that sets them apart from others, loves the things that makes it "Not one of the Normal People"

It's even prevalent in furry. While furs don't have many of the "racist" hangups (They still exist actually, and specisim exists as well...) there is still a strong emphasis on being different. There's still a strong desire to say "Well I'M a rabbit princess from the moon!" to set yourself apart from "regular" furries.

We do need to come together and agree on a set of "expressions" that is criminal. Those who wish to be criminal and do harm use the ideals of tolerance to break into established societies, and even the most "tolerant" of us need to agree on things that arn't acceptable. In furry for example, most channels I administer does not allow the excuse of "It's apart of my character's story" as an excuse for very anti-social and disruptive behavior. In society, it could be as simple as saying "The shirt that says I'M A COP KILLER" is a statement of criminal intent" ...although even that has many repercussions which we all would not enjoy.

In the end, it is up to culture itself to be corrected. Those encouraging criminal behavior or glorifying it should be outcast and shunned, not granted golden globes and rewards.

It is the heart that needs convinced, not the mind.

How one dresses should not matter, only their actions. Come to FL and say everything you just said in this journal and if you already live here come say it in my area. You'll be on the news, seriously everything you just said contradicts your first statement. =/

> In other words, if you don't want to be treated like a minority, STOP DRESSING AND ACTING LIKE ONE.

Stopped reading there. I'm sorry, dear Flynn, but I can't take this journal seriously--what, with all the implications that line alone insinuates. If anything, I am f is appointed, at best.

See my long reply to Colada, above. This isn't about what I want. The social majority is happening, and it's composed of every race, sex and creed. My message is about sparing this country suffering and greater loss of life, because it's going to happen. Isn't it worth a little compromise to avoid that?

Conformity over comfort? Seems pretty socialist no?

Hey, socialism is cool, we get healthcare and shit.

Don't fucking diss socialism.

Meant Fascism! Sorry Bunnyta! *offers as sacrifice*

Pardon me. Fascism rather.

Spare me. The line I quoted was the single most disrespectful thing I've seen you say; and in turn, the context of the whole journal swings that way. So, no--I will not take this journal seriously.

This is some GR8 B8 M8!

But no, really.
Fuck you, man.

This is exactly what racist sons of bitches rant about.


The United states are called "United" for a reason.

It is a collective of multiple cultures that are brought together.


With that said, I salute you for starting up this wonderful little shit storm. You belong on 4chan! Truly, you do! <3

*lifts lighter up*

There already is a United States culture, idiot. It's already happened, and it is happening right now. People of all different races, sexes and origins forming an American community, which came out of multiple cultures blending into one culture.

The social majority is happening.

What I'm talking about is that the growing and inevitable tension between the social majority and the various cultural minorities can end if they choose a little compromise. A little effort of cooperation to make it less obvious how much they stand apart. Because it will save lives.

The violence we see now? It's only gonna get worse the closer America gets to having a true identity.

All I can do is squint at you and slowly mumble "You dense motherfucker".

So you're telling me that I am supposed to compromise and give up what makes my ethnicity unique for conformity into one specific culture?

You're telling me that we're supposed to become a communist country?


At this rate, sure. But you will never truly achieve this kind of goal. The pride of man as a whole makes it impossible. There shouldn't be a conformity, but an understanding. The fact that you show your disdain for certain cultures gives off that you fear these people for a severe misunderstanding. Violence will be rampant wherever you go. It is the opposite force of peace. Without one, there cannot be the other. There is already a true identity for America, but you fail to see it because you are that blind to the big picture.


Why do you think that we have 50 different states and state flags, when we are all one nation?
We understand and are a joint community, without giving up the very thing that makes us unique.

Fuck you, man.
Fuck you.

:/
No words.

Honestly, at this point, I think everything that could possibly be said has been said. Literally.

This was supposed to be about ending cultural strife through a little compromise...but it seems people are more interested in propagating it while waiting for the "magical day of acceptance".

Wurm is tired...

I dunno man it honestly just comes off as "I don't like when people don't dress in an expected cultural norm" but I think that the freedom of expression is one of the good things about this country. Saying people shouldn't dress like minorities if they don't wanna be treated like minorities is fucked up. Like.. yeah. I'm not gonna go into why I think this whole journal is just a complete mess.

Whenever I see comments like this it makes me laugh.

My people were here first, the current culture isn't the correct or right culture in the US.

Signed,

Some Native American Asshole.

There are two sides to this coin. By all means, people who stand out or behave oddly are more likely to get judged and scoffed at, but you have to realise that making a scene out of total non-issues like dress sense, speech patterning or cultural slant are standing out and behaving just as 'oddly'. The same judgements should also be directed upon those people, yet for some reason people just love the bandwagon effect. Be careful not to confuse "Unity" with simply diminishing variety.

How a perfect stranger dresses or behaves is a non-issue if they aren't being offensive, violent or disruptive. Focusing on the differences between people and using it as an excuse to try arbitrarily quench it is just pointless social abrasiveness, and FAR more divisionary than unifying. Pointless judgemental behaviour is a cancer eating at the heart and soul of modern civilised societies, and no amount of manufactured rationale can excuse a grown adult from being openly derisive for something as idiotic as meager opinions of other people's core patterning. To suggest otherwise is to suggest total strangers have a claim in your life or personality. By all means be worried about the effect of cultural memes, the degeneration of the english language and the direction of accepted fashion, attitudes and behaviours! Yet if you can't tackle it with rationality instead of an equal-opposite primitive response of foot-stomping and effective "stop liking what I don't like!" then really you're just as much part of the problem.

"United" does not mean "Assimilated" or "Enforced conformity" for crying out loud, there is no singular committee for a singular "normal" and there sure as hell isn't any individual human being that steers it. There is no mature justification for trying to badger people into culturally 'wearing your brand' over someone else's, provided they are a functioning, cooperating element. All people make some common sacrifices in their preferred behaviour as to fit into civilised society, and those who do not typically end up in trouble with the law. Those that cannot obide this basic of integration find themselves incarcerated or unemployed, in which case the issue is about lawbreakers or people unwilling to contribute though being entirely (and reasonably) capable of doing so. Not their culture. Coming together does not mean brow-beating your neighbours into drinking your personal favourite brand of soda. You can be united without being synchronised. You can wear the same colours without the same uniform.

I would happily walk among a hundred thousand people who to me seem "Weird" or "Odd" or even "Vaguely annoying" than willingly suffer the company of a single person who is knowingly and willingly able to resort to open, public douchebaggery simply for the sake of rudely saying "I disapprove". There are no sovereigns amongst equal peers, everyone's shit stinks, and the sooner we stop pretending there is some kind of cultural elite, the better.

If you are functional, lawful and carry a modicum of tact and respect for others, then you're cool. As it stands, people who throw high-profile judgements at strangers tend to be badly lacking in that respect part.

Shit, this is painful to even try to read in hindsight. Might try re-wording it when I'm not on the edge of falling to sleep :P

What this entire rant came down to was the following:

1. All living creatures are inherently xenophobic, except for a rare few individuals (glitches in the Matrix, maybe). Human types can suppress that to a degree with conscious choices, but they can't eliminate instinct.

2. Wishing that wasn't true doesn't make it any less true. The ideal tapestry world isn't gonna happen, or if by some miracle it eventually does, not for a long time, and certainly not in the naive way people have been proposing.

3. Acting like a stereotype will get people reacting to you negatively.

4. Yes, you could remove assumptions of a stereotype with education. But, if the people who were propagating that stereotype keep up the same behavior, a new stereotype will form for the same reasons as the old one under a different name...which still puts it on them to make a change.

Living as a society is a balance of individuality and compromise. Yes, people should remember and honor their heritage, but they should also adopt the public conventions of where they live. Blatantly standing apart just creates strife. Basically, it is possible in civilized society to express yourself without sticking out like a sore thumb. :)

Indeed.

The main problem with your journal though, is that it places responsibility upon those who are being judged, not those who are doing the judging. In particular, the line about "if you don't want to be treated like a minority, don't act like one" suggests that it's the 'victims' fault for being victimised, simply because they behaved a certain way. The onus should be upon those willingly and knowingly creating the divides.

She's probably just going to point out to you that it's the minorities causing the divide with their belligerent behaviour not the majority who looks down upon and judges them. Because different is bad.

But thank you for this, thank you so much for pointing out her "The victim was asking for it" mentality. I kept trying to figure out how to say that without resorting to another damned essay but couldn't (granted reading some of the other comments clarified some of the things I asked her about... but only raised more questions, which I have been resisting the urge to ask. Helps that other people have brought some of those questions and statements up and have only gotten abuse or reiteration back so that helps).

Read my response to Uroboros. I think it'll be right below this one. I feel I explain the issue pretty well. :)

It's very easy to confuse "fault" with "circumstance". It's actually not a fault thing. They're not "guilty" of anything (unless, of course, they're doing it to be deliberately and knowingly abrasive, threatening or offensive, in which case it's absolutely their fault). It's more like...let's say you live near a mountain trail. The trail is a faster way to get to work, but it's also more dangerous than just walking down the big slope farther away. For the sake of brevity, you take the trail. One day, you lose your footing and fall. Crap.

Was that your fault? My inclination is to say "yes and no". It's a very complicated question. It would also be fair to ask "why hasn't the city come by and fixed that trail? I pay my taxes, just like everyone else. The fact that it hasn't been shored up is irresponsible", and that would be right to ask.

But, the trail hasn't been fixed, and you still chose to walk it. Maybe there's a good reason, too. Maybe you were late to work. Maybe the scenery was better. But you still made that choice, even if the trail being in shit shape is not your fault. This is the extremely complicated mechanic we're dealing with.

But, when it boils down to it, ask this: Which is more likely to happen - the city coming all the way out to shore up a single dirt trail, or you choosing a different path?

The answer is pretty obvious, but that doesn't make the city's lack of giving a damn right, nor does that make you having to give up the trail right, it just means you're changing your path to deal with it. That's the essence of what I'm talking about here.

When I say "emphasizing minority culture leads to segregation and violence", that's just what's happens in the world, and is happening now. What I'm saying to people is "Yes, those hateful people are wrong. But they're always going to be there. It's not worth it. It's not worth the violence. It's not worth the innocent people who aren't involved and have nothing to do with the overt culture getting hurt or killed because you're reminding the hateful people of their hate."

Are you opposed to different appearances in culture or are you opposed to accepting appearances associated with danger, trouble or negativity?

It's pretty normal if it's the latter. If you want a contemporary example, people are disturbed by the appearance of cops since civilians hear constant reports of corruption. In my case, I become wary of those who display neonazi imagery or brandish illegal firearms in public.

Of course, you can't accurately determine the character of a person who wears a "negative appearance", but most people opt for a "better safe than sorry" route.

I'm opposed to combinations of appearance and mannerisms that are disruptive to social harmony by being threatening or covert, absolutely...but also ones that are deliberately flippant.

What I mean by flippant is, if someone is dressed in a manner that causes myself and everyone around me to act like they're basically giving us the finger? Yeah, that's being deliberately offensive. :/

So yeah, threatening or flippant, that's my priority. Otherwise, what I'm really saying is...don't be tacky, people. Don't walk around practically wearing the flag of another country as a toga all the time. Have some respect and decency.

See I think if you had completely reworded your journal to say something along the lines of "I don't think people should dress in threatening ways or ways that are disruptive/can cause dangerous situations" then it wouldn't be a big deal. But even then, that is completely subjective. Some people are terrified of tattoo'd up bikers. Some people are afraid of people wearing masks in public. Some people are afraid of crossdressers. You could turn your argument around and say that if transgender people don't want to be treated like minorities they shouldn't dress like minorities.
It's very subjective. I live in an area where many, many residents wear big baggy t-shirts, low jeans and other typical "ghetto" fashions, that is simply their culture. I've never had a problem with them, in-fact the only dangerous run-in I had with someone was a guy wearing a pretty decent suit!

Furball you are just so freaking right.

But in my job i've met a lot of people with different backgrounds.

Race

Gender

Religion

And Nationality.

But i've learn so many things from each of them and became friends with many as well.

I just hate that this is going on.

And the US Patriot has risen. *waves flag* USA! USA! USA!

That just pisses me off that this close mindedness keep happening over and over.

Here and all over the world.

A big whole load of bullshit. Be what you are, act like you feel, and be proud of yourself.

My eyes hurt.

This contradicting, hypocritical, self-centered, fascist, overwhelmingly exaggerated piece of shit argument is literally hurting my eyes.

You make no sense. People shouldn't be subjected to how they dress or act. If you have a problem with it, ignore them. But acting like you run shit by thinking you know what should be right from wrong will not only nullify your argument, but also make you sound like an entitled manchild who knows nothing about how life works.

I'm 18 and I can be more mature about this topic than you can ever be.

Get the fuck off the stage.

>I can be more mature about this topic
>get the fuck off the stage

More like "can't".

Hahaahahaha

The good ole' "oh crap i'm getting flak from the racist things I said, let's pretend it was an elaborate ruse!"

This is like the fifth time I've pulled something like this. You'd think people would be getting wise to me by now. :D

Yes, yes, it's all an elaborate ruse

You're not backpedaling so fast everyone in a 10 miles radius caught whiplash, you're a master trolle.

I mean, it's not like you've spent all that time being obviously emotionally involved while defending your shitty racist rant.

http://i.imgur.com/uOgBN.png

this works too.