100% this

2nded

4th'd

call me eager

psssshhh naaaah, we should try our fans as nothing more than consumers, cause all that matters is da money

spoken like a true corporate asshole! :D

You have a bright future working for EA

+1

It's pretty simple, there. Just don't support those artists through Patreon.

You gotta tell the artists this criticism though!

Otherwise they won't know why people aren't supporting their patreon

Nah, they just call you a self entitled twat, block you, and carry on without a care in the world.
You get the disgusting likes of:
Kayla-Na who calls you a salty idiot, laughs at you through Tumblr or whatever it was, and carries on;
or Aaron, who just calls you an idiot (while earning $2k/month and still thinks he has to fucking spam FA like an advertisement stall).

Provided they're getting some stupid persons money; they don't care.

oh man, (as someone who used to admire her artstyle) i remember asking kayla-na a while ago on her deviant page why she made so much fnaf shit. only to be greeted by a "fuck you get out" and her flock of dickless hamsters roaming about while calling me out for daring to question her fangirlism. hearing about this makes me even madder now...

I'd say it's disgusting, but it doesn't quite encompass what it really is. What's also amusing is some of Jason's latest Journals too~! I'm sure you've seen the drama-llama related ones? (they have near or over 1k comments)

Not enough people are critical of the way patreon is used. props for actually taking a stand.

Pay 3$ monthly to my patreon to view this comment and other comments like it!

turns out every time it just says "dildo"

Where is my ability to favorite journals...dang it..If I could this would be my number one spot.

Freelancers found a way to commercialize everything they do on their own. I'm impressed... but not necessarily the good kind of impressed.

I unwatch everyone that does this, plain and simple.

I'm almost to that point. Where almost half the artists I watch now is constant flow of , "You could see this whole image...if you had patreon." Well sorry I don't have a job right now so I don't have any money.

That, and those that are on Patreon can't really afford to support EVERY artist that does this. It's like, "Wanna see this picture? Get Patreon! Oh, you're already supporting other artists and can't afford to do so? Too fucking bad."

Which makes it all the more likely that the popular artists are bound to get all the money because they are more well known?

I find it funny* that when you question it- they bring up entitlement bullshit.


*by funny, I of course mean downright pathetic, stupid, irritating and beyond annoying.

same, I can understand drawing is a hobby and it take time out of their day, but they can't expect everyone to just pay them just to view simple things they would draw regardless. Its the worst when you see once gallery filled with cropped pictures and descriptions telling you to go support their patreon.

Probably will do that too sometime. It get's extremely annoying.
I'll post this journal every time I see someone uploading a paywall artwork or journal.

I've never wanted to favorite a journal more than right now.

Yeah. I don't feel I'd have any benefits from pay-walling my shit either. People are free to come and go if/when they want.

Yeah... Always kinda feeling salty to see people just charging up for their regular content. I much more prefer crowd funding sites with some actual direction and goal rather than 'tip me money so you can see anything'. I can see why they want and can to benefit on that, but dunno. It just looks like being total sellout and putting fake sticker of 'exclusivity' for most common activities.

Completely agree! I hate when some Patreons hold content for ransom like that.

For the longest time, I didn't support anyone on Patreon due to that very reason. I've found a few artists who I like who don't institute a paywall, and I've decided that those are the ones that I'd like to support.

What angers me most, though, are the ones that only allow commissions through higher tiers. 50 a month for a chance at getting a commission? That's absurd to me. A person may want to support you, but might not have the expendable income to do so for however long it takes for luck to warrant that they get a commission. It's not about saving. It's about telling your fans that their money just isn't worth as much to you.

Reading through these comments I totally agree with ya, Goji.

I have thought about patreon but I feel the same way about it-- I feel like it is a little bit excessive. And as much as I think it's great that they have found a way to monetize their art, seeing things like "donate $50 a month to have a chance at commissioning me!" is pretty nuts! Although I have seen artists use patreon in a really good way, by offering tutorials, behind the scenes sketches and WIPs--things like that make more sense to me.

Reading through these comments, it seems I wasn't aware that patreon's become so problematic.


Patreon to me is a tool... in the same way a hammer to a carpenter is a tool or a suit for a banker. It's a tool that is at an artist's disposal to help make their craft profitable and more enjoyable for them. It's like Ych's as well, an easy way for an artist to get an idea they've been wanting to try and let the audience decide how much it's worth.


However, you don't overuse or abuse it. It's a good tool, but you're only hurting yourself if you use it in ways that alienates your customers. The biggest problem though, is you won't be aware of the loss of income or potiential donaters unless you're good at economics.

To me its almost starting to become. "Well you I could let you see my art...that's if you had any money...until then your stuck with these half pictures that have the patreon logo all over them!" or "Look at all this awesome stuff you COULD be getting if you were supporting me...oh wait that's right your jobless you don't have the money well fuck you then!"

the ironic thing is the artist is usually jobless too.

I'm not saying they aren't. Or it isn't a good thing to try and support them. But I guess I'm just a little sore that when I watch someone then out of no where it switches to patreon only art ^^'

how would you feel if they didn't only do patreon only art. Would you say this sort of thing could work if one balanced free content with premium content?

I would be fine with it , if it was that way. But when patreon stuff is what fills 3/4ths of my submission box it gets pretty annoying. I don't come to FA for advertisements

I agree, Ive seen lots of artist smell that money and suddenly they just make a full jump onto the patreon train. This information is useful should i ever decide to give it a try but i don't think that would be for a very very long time |D

Its not a bad idea to raise money and make art your job. But at the same time if you spam patreon your going to lose a lot of watchers. Unless your a popufur of course

i figured, no one likes seeing orange logo after orange logo in their inbox XD
what would make you interested in supporting someone?

Well first I'd need the money and a job XD. But the whole "chance" at art kind turns me off of the idea. But its one of the few things to offer. Exclusive content is what I see alot. But I would be most likely to support someone who really needs the money. Like someone who has a kid that needs to be fed or needs to pay off college debt or something.

I guess doing fulltime freelance art isn't a job...?

Maybe I should stop paying taxes!

No im saying they don't have an external job outside of freelance. plus you're not freelance if you don't get paid.

That doesn't even make sense, man. Why would someone working fulltime want to or be able to get another job? There's only so many hours in a week you can work.

And I'm confused, freelance means you work independently. It's just an artist who gets their own work and doesn't work for a company on salary, which most artists don't do because there are not many jobs like that available.
Are you saying that artists need another job?
Or that freelance illustration isn't a "real job"? Cause it pays real money. I'm really confused!

"Why would someone working fulltime want to or be able to get another job? There's only so many hours in a week you can work"

i never said that.

"freelance means you work independently"
yes you are you're own boss, but you still need money though right? If you're a freelance who makes no money then doesn't that just mean you're jobless?


"Are you saying that artists need another job?"
If you're just starting out or you're not very successful then yea its recommended you have some sort of reliable guaranteed income. I never said freelance wasn't a job.

I've actually met tons of people that have two or three jobs.
One of them being a fulltime job. It is possible. It's called they need the money to survive because one job isn't enough.

It wasn't my intention to undermine people with multiple jobs, I was genuinely confused by what the other poster was implying.

Edit: I've had multiple jobs lots of time in my life. o_o

I wasn't saying you were.
I'm just saying that it is a very common occurrence if one job isn't enough.
Sad to say. Its no ones fault.
Just a sad fact with society these days.

im not saying that you said what i said you said....saying xP

Nailed it.

hehe~

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pxCdn8g8s.....ke-button2.jpg

that is all i need to say
since ive found alot of artists doing thing and it bugs the crap out of me since im a fur who has no way of buying things online. so paying for content just isnt something i can do plus even nif i could i could never afford it anyways.

i agree the fans are what are important not lining your wallet with money for bs reasons and escuses.

I absolutely agree with this journal 100%

I mean.. I can see using Patron to have support from your fans for cool projects and giving them some exclusive perks like seeing comic pages before the public, or behind the scene stuff in return.. But to pay-wall for normal stuff.. That's just low and taking advantage for said person's own personal gain.

I'm not really that fond of Patreon at all because even though I strongly wish to support my favorite artists, and befriended ones ... this thing is used in wrong ways too often. I want to support the artists, but not Patreon. To be completely honest, if this keeps up I am developing a love/hate relationship with the thing.

You can argue that all this art is luxury and you're right. But there are so many artists who offer a price on exclusives or "standard" resolution these days, I wouldn't even be able to affort supporting them all. And the number is growing all the time.

So instead, I will show my support with tipping when I have a commission going. I get to have a bit of interaction, which is awesome with friendly folks, and I can show my heartfelt gratitude in words and action regardless.

Patreon could be a fantastic thing for all involved, but like any other service that is capable of creating a quick buck, people abuse it.

I've found that patreon is like a hammer.

The right way to use it is to hit nails into surfaces.
The less right way is to use it for hitting screws into surfaces.

The WRONG way to use it, is to hit people on the head with it.

But, what is right and wrong to a person depends on the person.

A serial killer would say the "wrong" way is actually the right way.

This comment.
To me, Patreon is a nice concept and theory, but I haven't really seen it be used that often. I mean, if Patreon caught on as the norm and then that became the main way to view art, there would be no possible way to ever pay every single one. It would be a subscription service that would have you paying for each individual person's content. I'd even draw the same comparisons between it and when Youtube planned on offering paid subscriptions for individual content creators. I dunno if that is still a thing or not, but I haven't seen anyone on Youtube actually use it if they can. Either way, it just sounds like a bad idea.
It would be like, instead of Netflix even, you'd have individual production groups who each charge per different show. And if that sort of system caught on even in the art world, I'd take a guess that only the most popular artists would thrive when all the others would be left in the dust to fight eachother for the rest of the fanbase..

what? nonesense! Treat your fanbase like cash cows! Force them to pay to view your content that would otherwise be free to view!
Money for me and content for you, remember, you need it!

I do not support patron because of this. I like the traditional way of commissioning.
Waiting.
Watching.
Claiming if I have the money.
But I see too often that people use patron to do commissions and bases and other stuff that others can't use or get.
It's rather annoying to me.
Now I'm not saying that everyone does this with their patron but still I see it to often. And it makes me mad....

It's Artists like the ones doing this that make everyone think so negatively about Patreon. T_T Patreon is AMAZING when used for what it was created for. But now if you ask people what they think of Patreon, there's almost a negative connotation to it because of people abusing the Exclusive content ability and turning it into a Paysite.

I know it can be really nice but just to many don't use it correctly

The best thing is seeing some make a Patreon and it only makes about 20 dollars and ask for about 100 or so. I'm like "yes! fuck your self-esteem you dumb bitch!"

Thanks for posting this. Artists were fine with posting their goodies online until this site became popular.

This. But hey, this is FA, where people believe that drawing furry smut is actually a reputable and decent source of income, so you better don't say it out too loud, because you might kickstart drama.

sex sells. reputable or not it makes the coin.

Really respect you for saying this. I see so many patreons that are nothing more than a wall between them and their audience with very little mutual benefit.

I really like patreons that are used to support projects like you and Kabier's as they truly do need that kind of support in order to come to fruition. Otherwise you'd never have the time or resources to get them done. Too many peopel are just using patreon as a bandwagon to hop onto for a cash grab that really doesn't provide anything to the community in return.

hah XD I just wrote something like this and I TOTALLY AGREE.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6612912/

What do you mean by personal work? just the thing a person usually draws except they charge for it? Does that apply to when a person charges for picture packs or makes exclusive content for those who support him?

" It shouldn't be used to fund personal art that is then severely damaged with rampant advertisements in hopes to make more money."

I COULD be wrong, but I think what he is saying is that when people create personal art (which is any non-commissioned/gift art created for the sole purpose of the Artist themselves) AND THEN they put censors on it and say "If you want to see the full version, you have to donate money to me", that's when it becomes distasteful.

As opposed to using the donations to fund art or art packs and all that. Sort of the difference between a Paysite and creating content for everyone to see.

so eh basically when a person just spammed their gallery's with censored patreon pictures then right? Boy this is a tricky situation...

exactly.. art packs and what not are made with the express purpose of being sold as a product... thus makes sense to be used on patreon or a paysite


Personal... actual personal artwork that is like "Oh I just felt like doodling some dragons and dicks today" that is personal.. and doesn't really justify charging people for .

What about if people have a say in what can be drawn on patreon? like things put to a vote or a common thing people are interested in of some kind.

I saw someone do that on Patreon :D They had a goal, whenever they hit like $200/month, all of their $5/mo Patrons got to vote what they wanted to have happen to the Artist's character. It was sexy and fun and definitely a unique perk!

Stuff like that for sure! It's a nice way of interacting with your base!

See, I actually would fund a couple people to draw personal art if I really enjoy what they draw. There are a couple of artists with really amazing looking characters that I wouldn't mind if some of the Patreon money went toward their drawing their own characters more often. It's really really hard for artists to find (or justify) the time to draw their own characters. But I would definitely prefer that they include what they would be using the donations for up front in their patreon.

would you be into the idea of getting discounts on commissions if you ever subscribed to someone?

That's a fun perk I've seen someone do, too. Or Commission priority. I'm only supporting one person on Patreon right now, mostly because I love their comic and their character. :D

:) thanks for sharing your time with me, your input has been most helpful.

I automatically delete any submission I see with the patreon logo on it. I don't care if it's the dog's bollocks if it's not complete it's not getting looked at.

Not to mention the sheer amount of patreons that are popping up in my journal inbox.

I am watching close to 4,000 users. Should I be sending money to them all? Because it seems like half of them have one of their hands out with a patreon sign in the other hand.

Can we complain about people using Patreon's symbol to censor their work? Seriously, that's the most annoying/dumbest shit ever, I don't know why it's popular. JUST BLUR IT OUT!

Maybe it's a way to attempt to deflect some of the annoyance that should be at the person for what they're doing, onto Patreon itself...

Which is a damn shame because then you get people that are super prejudiced against Patreon, when SOME people like Jasonafex and Kabier and others actually do much more wholesome things with it.

In a lot of cases, said deflection attempt doesn't work. I know it doesn't work my case. When I click on a submission and see a bigass Patreon logo in my face, I get angry at the artist, not the system he/she is abusing to Hell and back.

I appreciate the usage because it immediately notifies me of the crap I'd have to go through to see the uncensored version so I can immediately move on elsewhere.

Check out the image I linked at the top, might get a kick out of it

I was panicced when I saw that at first.. cause I love those guys videos xD

Was the link there at first? Must have missed it was a link and not just bolded, haha.

Thank you so much for this! I tried to voice exactly that opinion several times already, but it is difficult to have a reasonable discussion with the fanboys jumping in from all sides. I am glad to here that there are also some artists out there that realize how ridiculously schemy some of this stuff has gotten!

I've noticed the one thing they all scream at you is "you have an entitlement attitude, that ain't a good image for you!". It's annoying as FUCK.

While I'm using patreon to just generally support artists I like, I do get kind of eye-twitchy when it's literally the same crap they post to FA.

its annoying when they post patreon stuff people pay for, for free less than a few days later right? or did you mean something else?

A few that I support will just straight use patreon like an FA gallery. I still don't mind supporting, but I do feel a slight bit of entitlement. :P

Kayla-Na is pretty much the first person I thought of. God, she's awful in so many ways.

How so?

She constantly uploads censored artwork (originally for absolutely no real reason, which was even WORSE) instead of cropped images or just nothing at all, she frequently antagonizes and attacks people on other websites like Derpibooru when they complain about her poor practices and acts the victim when they lash out, her legions of inexplicable fans have a stunning tendency to stand by her side and protect her from anything resembling criticism, and her art isn't that great.

Rant over, proceed as normal.

are there other things you dont like about patreon

The censored "Pay to see the real piece" people are the worst by far. They intentionally took their art and made what they consider to be an INFERIOR VERSION of it, to try and guilt/trick/coerce/lure/bait/entice people to pay. How can you even justify that from an ethical standpoint as an artist?

I agree with you on all points. She used to be pretty awesome. Now she's a prime example of how to abuse the system. And then artists whine that people are using other means to acquire their work...

I mean, I've paid for other artists' work. Sefeiren is a prime example of that; I've bought a number of her portfolios and access to every season of Frisky Ferals. But the difference is that Sef's work is fucking fantastic, and her personality (on the internet, at least) isn't utterly repulsive. She doesn't tease you with censored images; hell, for the Kobold pack a while ago, she uploaded all the images themselves in full, just a slighlty lower quality...and i still bought it because I wanted to support her. Given that she's had a lot of funding for her newest comic, I'd say that business model is fairly successful.

What are you basing your assessment of her personality on, considering you've never once made personal contact with her, ever. I've certainly never seen you leave message, note, email, or comment on any piece of art she's ever posted in her gallery. So you are spreading innuendo on the internet with zero personal experience to support your claim, nor are you sighting any specific situation supported by fact. You're just making a vague generalized comment.

You complain about censored artwork, but in the past 30 days she's uploaded 12 uncensored pieces of adult artwork mixing from a range of heterosexual and homosexual adult situations. That's an average of 3 images per week, almost every other day save for one weekend day. To this day from March 2nd she's had 44 uploaded images to her gallery, with only 7 of them being censored for Patreon. That is an artwork production surpassed by many artist who do have Patreons, and that's just uploads to her FA gallery, not including the comics she does for the Patreon. Her artwork output puts her at a pace of at minimum an image a day.

So I ask you, what is the minimum you feel an artist should in ratio to FA uploads to Patreon uploads based on actual factual data instead of blown up assumptions and misinterpretations of a person's motives. Not liking a particular artist's artwork style over another artist's is one thing and a valid reason to not support one artist over another, but attempting to slander the name and rep of an artist by making sweeping generalizations of there personality (with zero experiences yourself) or even publicly explaining the situation where you feel you were treated unfairly by an artist with specific examples is just cheap.

Finally, this claim of an artist using Patreon as a "Pay Wall" doesn't hold up if the artist is still producing just as much artwork for public consumption as they are for their Patreon, if the public consumption artwork is coming as a result of the Patreon, or if the artist is still as active now on their public page as they are on the Patreon.

Based on what factual data do you make this accusation? He posts just as much art now as she did before having a Patreon and she still posts more non-censored artwork now than she did before having the Patreon (heck, you may be getting more uncensored artwork now than before the Patreon). She's got a work production of almost a picture a day. 44 images in the month of March alone, and we still have 2 days before it's over.

I don't think it's a factual data. I have seen the numbers you typed out. Yes, she does post just as much art, but pictures with big Patreon logos all over, cropped and censored pieces have definitely been on the rise and from what I see, a lot of the uncensored pieces are usually sketches or WIP art. Not all, but a lot.

She definitely used to post a lot more finished/"full" pieces before Patreon became a thing. I understand that patrons have to be rewarded as well and I have nothing against the concept of Patreon itself, but I think I have some reasons to think that more adult/censored/etc. pictures will continue to be restricted to Patreon. And not just by Kayla, but I don't think it's coincidental that a good couple people thought of her as an example. This can be compared to how many people cropped and censored their pictures during the First Great Weasyl Exodus.

I see you already posted a journal rushing to judgement and ridiculing those who happen to be of the same opinion as I am. You're entitled to that opinion. But what are the chances that you would have hidden my comment/deleted my shout and promptly blocked me if I expressed these views on your page or Kayla's? I'm sure the chances are pretty high. Well, you can't do that here.

I still post plenty of art for people that don't support Patreon for them to enjoy that ISN'T censored. You can very easily ignore the ad pictures and just delete them from your inbox. That's what I do if an artist I watch posts something I don't like. Just delete it, you won't see it anymore unless you directly go to the artist's page.

And that is exactly what I do. In fact, I haven't spoken out about it until now for the reasons mentioned in my previous comment. Which you probably didn't read in its entirety, because if you did, you'd know that "from what I see, a lot of the uncensored pieces are usually sketches or WIP art. Not all, but a lot.".

What exactly is wrong with sketches?

What do you mean you don't think it's factual data. Just go to her gallery and look at her submissions and count backwards until you hit the first submission that is dated outside of March.

You are speaking in general again. How many pictures in the last 30 days have been pictures with "Big Patreon logos all over, cropped and censored pieces"? In the past 2 hours since I last typed what I did she's uploaded and additional 4 images, 2 censored by request of the commissioner. In the past month she's posted only 7 total images that have either been cropped or have had the Patreon logo on them, with 2 additional pictures created to advertise 2 products she had done.. That can total 9 images out of now 48 images uploaded so far this month. By my math that means 19% of her total art uploads for this month have been what you are complaining about with 81% not. And of that 48 images 13 are completely colored, that's 27% of her total uploads, that also makes it an average of 4 completely colored images per week.

That's using pure facts and data. I'm sorry if it's not supporting the narrative that you want to drive, but facts are what the facts are.


And sir, I've never hidden a comment in my journals to this date, because you have a right to your opinion and if they hold up, they'll hold up. I have confidence and faith in what I have to say, you should as well. If I'm wrong and you prove me to be so, I'll admit my error and concede, but all you've presented is speculation with zero empirical evidence to support your claims.

The reason people complain about her and bring her up is because she bothers to censor anything AT ALL, because our fandom has this mindset that EVERYTHING should be 100% unfettered and anyone who does otherwise is the worst type of person imaginable. I don't get this ...idea that people feel, that everything an artist does should be presented in its fullest, just because. I've yet to see anyone fully express this point of view logically that doesn't sound like "Just because I say so."

I'm awful cause you don't like my business practices? Yeeeah ok. >_>

Two days late. Took you a while to pop up and start acting high-and-mighty, didn't it, Kayla? I figured you would eventually.

And by the way? There are a lot more reasons than that, which you quite conveniently decided to ignore. Good job.

The aforementioned reasons have nothing to do with Patreon, nor they are true. Hence why I didn't acknowledged them. I'm sorry you think that I'm high and mighty, but I'm not. Sarcastic, yeah, but not high and mighty. A little difficult to convey emotion on the internet sometimes.

I don't like that people try and use it as a paysite. It seems a bit dumb. I think you can pledge the minimum amount, see what you want, and leave...right? I've never supported anyone on the site but from what I remember hearing you can do that.

I dunno, mine just kinda hangs out. Support it if you want. I don't care xD
For the most part it's like character concept sketches along with files and such. With a few tiny perks of stuff here and there ;u;

Yes you are able to delete your pledge. In fact I think some people pledge, save all the content, then delete it before its charged.

I thought so.

I mean, the site's not meant to be a pay site type of thing...And if you use it as such you'll end up having people who do just that. ;u;

Hopefully that gets fixed soon because it's really cheating the artist

But that's the thing - Patreon is NOT DESIGNED to be a paywall site. But people are using it as such, and this can be exploited. Patreon does not intend you to be hiding content with it, it's meant to be a donation site.

If you want a paywall, make a website, charge for accounts, and control it yourself. Don't complain that a site you're using incorrectly won't fix a problem of your own creation.

The system is permitting people access to Patreon Only Content before Charging them for their Donation Pledge... that... is in error in the system in my eyes.

Well, what's the solution then? If it's supposed to bill you every month, and you sign up on the 29th, should it bill you for a whole month then bill you again 2 days later? A pro-rated amount of that month left? Charge for a full month immediately and have everyone be billed on different days? (Worse for the artist)

Again, no good solution because that's not what Patreon was made for.

simple don't grant them access to patreon content until their pledges Are actually charged. if the billing cycle is only once every month and charge me that once every month
it's a pretty simple idea to me

If you're going to restrict access that way (account management) you might as well just make your own pay site.

Explain to me why it's beneficial to grant Patreons IMMEDIATE Access to the Patreon Creators Content w/o gauranteeing the payment however... cause all I'm hearing is NO NO NO but w/o any understandable counterpoint to what I'm saying

Well, explain to me how it currently works. How are you restricting access?

I don't own a patreon

But what I'm hearing from artists is that Patreon allows someone to Pledge a Donation, it gives them access to the content for that pledge.. they save everything.. and then take back their pledge before they actually get charged.


It's like a grocery store allowing shoppers to take the groceries and put it in their car.. and then TRUST THEM to come back inside and pay for it before they leave.

Yes, it's built into the site itself.

Which is why the site is not built as a paywall. People are using it incorrectly as such.

So then your solution is that Patreon creators shouldn't provide any patreon content on patreon

Actually, it seems like his solution is for those people not to use Patreon at all, as it's the wrong tool for the job.
Patreon was made with the creation of new content in mind, you're supposed to be pledging not to get what was already provided, but to say "Hey, I like your stuff, keep up this sort of thing and I'll support you!". So really, if artists want to make money off of content they've already made- which is perfectly reasonable - they should be using a different platform to do it.

That's kinda what I was looking for.. all I was getting the whole time was "Nope.. nope.. can't do that.. nope" with nothing to help me understand xD

Ah, I'm glad I could help sort that out for ya'!

It's been like a week but....I'd say that still isn't a solution to the problem. If the whole idea behind Paetron is to give creators a way to receive financial support from fans...and the content is provided for pledged support that never arrives, then it's not even doing what it set out to do.

Which is really mean-spirited and fucked up on the part of the site creators. One solution I've seen some artists use is to set a weekly pledge amount instead of monthly, but if it's done for those reasons it feels unethical, like those 7-day-trials that turn into automatic monthly charges later that bank on people not cancelling before the seven days are up. I don't get why they didn't just code in locking people out of the content until the payment went through. You don't drive a car out of a dealership and come back to pay for it a month later..

yeah. that was my whole point... Why give pledgers access until their pledge actually goes through... .. it just lets them Dine and Dash

It was meant as a rather verbose way of agreeing with you but also to give a specific solution. Though it's not like the Paetron devs read all this.. I have a feeling the site wasn't actually created by people who have sold something before.

You know asking for a logical explanation to a situations and statement like that is only going to lead to you getting a stress headache right?

It's a hard lesson to learn ;_;

I draw for fun, and I always will. I use patreon purely as a 'if you like my stuff and want to throw money at me, you rock, tyvm <3". I do my best to reward their kindness with -extra- stuff I wouldn't normally publish, like concept sketches and random doodles I might otherwise keep to myself, but I promised myself when I first signed up to it that I'd never use it as a paywall, and I intend to stay that way. My comics won't get less frequent or lower quality just 'cos you ain't throwing money at me. They haven't for the last few years, why start now? :/

I think what you should say that such Patreon practices may not be good business practices for the artists/content creators in general because it could be seen as disrespectful to their fans.

However.

I think a lot of people commenting here are misinterpreting what I think it is you're trying to convey. I see a lot of people complaining about advertising and having to pay money for art. That's total nonsense. If anything, folks have been getting it easy for getting a huge resource of free art and are now seeing the results of artists who want something more for all the hours they've put into their trade. Criticizing anyone for doing that makes you a bad person. It doesn't matter what kind of practices they have. If you don't like it, don't support it. But it doesn't deserve hate or ill-will.

Un-follow. Don't pay. Maybe even explain why (in a polite way). But don't get upset. The content belongs to the creator to do with as they see fit (assuming a second party hasn't paid or contracted them in some manner). If its a bad choice, they'll suffer.

I agree with this completely. 100% correct.

Their opinions are equally as valid as your own. What you find to be nonsense may be very important to another user.

There was already a wealth of income opportunity within the community such as commissions, donations already existed prior to Patreon. Artwork will endure without it's existence.

Criticising does not make you a bad person, in any retrospect. I openly encourage criticism of my own work, otherwise how else would I know when I make mistakes? The main thing that spurred the creation of this journal was the curating of critical comments addressing the issue.

Content creators such as myself are nothing without our supporters.

What if artists don't want to do donations or commissions any more an only do in the first place to make money, with Pateron they can focus on what the artist wants to do. No one is forcing people to join. Ive seen artists who still take commissions an do Pateron exclusive art an posting up ADs for there Pateron is a way to get attention to it. Exclusive art for Pateron are for folks who was willing to sponsor the artist an as such are given private arts an gifts for it.

Then I do not support those artists.

An that's fine, no problem with that but the big problem is how people are telling others that there wrong for doing that kind of business with there Pateron. To each there own, everyone has there own way of doing things but telling other people how there doing is wrong is just rude. What your doing with your pateron works for you then that's great an same goes for the others artist's on how they use there pateron. If you think what there doing is wrong, that's fine an they might suffer for it an will learn the hard way but you just cant call out to all artist like this cause you view things differently.

everyone has there own way of doing things but telling other people how there doing is wrong is just rude.

you just cant call out to all artist like this cause you view things differently.

I am classified as an artist, you are calling out to me. Why can't we do the same for others?

So long as comment sections exist, critic should be welcome. No-one is saying we need to start harassing or bullying content creators.

I agree with you on there, no one should start harassing or bullying content creators but its why a lot of people do when it comes to peoples Pateron when they feel its "unfair". "Unfair" is different to many people from different points of view an so no can truly say whats really is fair but since its the artists Pateron, its up to them to see what is fair since we don't always know why there running there Pateron in a certain way or the reasons for it.

Its not wrong to give advice even critic something but it must be with respect. You may not like what there doing but you have to respect them if they don't heed your advice. Agree to disagree an move on. Many don't do that an just make an up roar about it without giving proper reasons an i mean real general reasons for it other then just, "i want to see it" or " there just being greedy". A lot of Paterons use there art as that lively hood so they run it like one. Some do it a strict way, others doing a more loose way while others is a meesh of the two but to each there own. You may not like it but you need to respect there choice.

I feel most of the comments made here are respectful. Artists are simply normal people and don't need to be placed on a pedestal that is immune to controversy.

I made a couple of comments before creating this journal about similar matters to a couple of artists. One clarified that it wasn't as bad as it initially appeared, the other noted me personally to find a solution, and already made efforts to treat their audience better.

Had I not made those comments, I would have simply unwatched them.

Your right, the comments have been respectful which is a refreshing sight to see but the journal that you made still comes off as a lil disrespectful. I do get that its your opinion for which i do respect but i feel that you could of added that you may not agree with there practices, it is there choice an people should respect them for it an if they must insist on giving criticism then it must be in a constructive manner. If not then its just as you said, just simply unwatch them.

I don't like being delegated to public relations simply for being popular. I like being a person with a sometimes offensive opinion, it keeps me humble.

I never said that you should cause your popular, that was never the reason. Its just good courtesy an just general respect for people is all. Being popular has nothing to do with this. Although it is has you just said, you like to have offensive opinions at times. In any case, i think ive said all that i wanted to say or can think of saying. In the end, i have seen some of your points an i hope you have seen some of mine. If not, no biggie. Agree to disagree. ^^

aye..

^^^^^^^^

Sometimes it feels like everyone wants everyone else to tip toe around everything "just in case.

If someone is offended by something, that's their prerogative ALWAYS. You don't HAVE to respond, entertain or interact with anyone. People are people, and posting their opinions on THEIR profiles is their prerogative and they are certainly welcome too it. And if individuals disagree, then folks will have to agree to disagree and move on.

People have been paying for art for a very long time without Patron leaving the artist free to practice their art. Patron doesn't add anything to that point. Some people used to even pay for art with copper and silver coins! :P

Exclusive artwork is one thing and I feel that is a separate conversation. But if it's exclusive, keep it exclusive, don't make people pay for it and then turn around and post it for free a few days later. I've seen a lot of that.

And if you're paying for the privilege of accessing X data and are given gifts for it, did the artist even need your money in the first place? Obviously they've got extra time and money on their hands for free art and gifts... But that's something else I'm not a fan of; being basically bribed by free stuff after I've already paid. "Thank you" and other shows of appreciation used to be adequate for people. It's like when FA asked for all those donations, then turned around and spent hundreds or thousands of the "critically needed hardware upgrade" money on gifts and "thank yous". If they can afford to give people free stuff that costs THEM money, did they need all of the money they took in to begin with? And if they built in the cost of gifts into the donation amount, that's pretty much a scam.

Your are correct that people in the past have paid art before Pateron but as time change, there are new ways for that as well. As i stated before, many don't want to do commissions anymore an only cause they have too an with Pateron they don't have to. As much as people don't like hearing that, its up to the artist if they want to continue to take commissions while Some do while others don't.

Yes, exclusive art should stay exclusive but there is nothing wrong in advertizing there art so others can see what there doing. As an AD, its meant to show a lil sneak peek of what is happening there an "maybe" might make a few join in. If they don't then that's fine, nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with posting it a few days later or even a month or 2 later an there not making people pay for it. If its going to be out at a later time then you don't have to join to see, its just those that do can see it ahead of time. An if it annoys you then there is nothing else left then to unwatch them.

As for getting gifts an extra time, some artist are faster then others so they have time to give a lil extra back to those who sponsor them. Other artists do it as a reward for reaching a goal for an art project. Its not wrong for the artist to give a lil from time to time to there sponsors since do help the artist out. If they are not going commissions anymore then yes they do have a lot more time on there hands so its not wrong to give something back. I don't see the "being bribed by free stuff after I've already paid", most artist i follow don't advertize that they will get free stuff or gifts. There always a surprise if they completed something or have been a great help.

Excuse me if im starting to repeat myself.

You're right about criticism in general, yes. It helps people improve if given in a constructive manner.

Which is why I said that you should be telling people that they -could- be making a bad business model by trying to make money this way because it might turn a fan base sour. That is a very valid criticism. What is WRONG is saying that "This is the wrong way to use patreon." or "this is an annoying way to advertise" because you then are adding no constructive feedback or value to your critique. You are simply giving an opinion. Which you are free to give. But it doesn't make it right.

Just because there are other methods doesn't mean using one of them is wrong.

I'm not disagreeing with you, either. I don't think abusing your fan base for free dosh is a good way to gain support. I just think people should be able to try making money in a way they deem fit to their lifestyles without getting hate for people who don't want to pay out a few dollars to get their beloved porn back.

Exactly this!

Being informative was the goal of the journal. I tried to provide some solutions in the latter portion. It doesn't appear satisfactory to some, and that's fine.

In regards to the right and wrong way to go about giving critic, it is entirely subjective. My opinions should never be treated as fact. Anyone who needs to state that critic or particular opinions are wrong, bad or invalid is dismissing discussion or counter-arguments to their own opinions.

FA should be an open forum for all and any constructive criticism. That is the only objective statement that can be defended without conjecture.

This.

You know, the problem with some of those artists is that they can't take any kind of criticism at all. You could spend minutes wording your issues with their antics in the most constructive way possible and before you know it, they block you, make a 'woe is me' journal and in some cases, their White Knights come into play as well.

I really really like you.

That is the big slippery slope that is polarizing both sides. One side says "Give me money to look at my art, and if you don't like it go away... or wait for 5 days and get it for free anyways." and "You get all the art for free and I'm starving!" with the other side going "You're all just a bunch of greedy assholes with your pay walls and Patron adds everywhere." and there's no middle ground except to what seems to small number of level-headed people even willing to broach this conversation in a public forum like this.

I don't care about having to pay money for art, but when I am not _expecting_ to have that experience and instead get to a submission that is about nothing but "Give me monies on Patron naow!", it is disappointing and annoying. It's nice when you've got enough money that you CAN just give it to artists to support them but not everyone wants to or even can spend $10-20-30+ a month to support an artist. I support artists via PayPal (imagine that, we already had an online payment system that worked perfectly!). I don't want more spam and ads everywhere I go.


This entire conversation does NOT have to be about whether people want to pay for art or not; there are plenty of actual pay-sites out there like HotBlush or WetFur or whatever Jeremy Bernal calls his website, and Bonk has a pay site with guest artists, etc... If you are willing to pay for art, there are plenty of places out there for you. But this conversation far too often gets pushed right into that court with no consideration for any other aspect of it.


I think at this point the whole Patron controversy has become more of an issue of social acceptance and socially acceptable behavior by businesses/artists versus greed or fadism, which Patron (and furry) already has in spades. I think this is a healthy conversation for people to be having and it benefits the artists/businesses each time we have it because it's a big litmus test for them over a very hot-button issue.

Yeah, this. Pretty much all of this. I'm vehemently against Patron as a whole due to it's fad-ism and the greed it's stirred in various communities (and I'm still unconvinced there isn't shady dealings going on), but there are a small number of artists I've seen that use Patron well. You do so because you don't seem to feel the need to put up Patron ads everywhere or include a link to your pay site with every single friggin submission, whether it's Patron-related or not!

When an artist uses Patreon - or any other means - to FORCE viewers to pay, I quit following them. At that point they've ceased to be a legitimate artist who creates for the joy of creation & just another peddler. I have donated freely to projects & artists I love, but i DONATE. I'll never pay to see what's behind a giant censor graphic if that's all that's ever posted.

I don't totally agree with you here. Here's the thing, what you guys are doing is making a game, so there are more opportunities for you to offer unique rewards to your patrons, such as a cameo in the game, a thank you in the credits, etc. When a traditional artist uses an outlet like Patreon to help fund their work, they are limited to what options they have for rewards and thank-you's for the people that support them, most of the time these do end up being things like early access to comics, and .psd files, and, while the .psd files aren't anything as fantastic as a cameo in a computer game, they do offer up people the chance to see how successful artists present their workflow.

I don't see offering "smaller" rewards like .psd files and raffles as the way that they get people to support their work, I see it as a thank you FOR supporting their work, I'd still support the artists on Patreon that I do even if they didn't have anything like those, because I like their art and want to see more of it.

So you don't agree with us, but agree with us at the same time?  kabier is a traditional artist who offers PSDs for her comic, while still releasing the comic at the same time here with no reductions in quality.

Both methods work equally well, both myself and kabier have had great success with Patreon while being completely fair. If you are implying artists should exert less effort for smaller projects but net similar results, I disagree.

Not quite, what I'm trying to say is, people would still support the artists andbcontwnt creators either way, at least how I feel. The way I feel,about Patreon is like this, at least for the furry community: it's a great way get a somewhat steady income for doing your art and things, because not everybody wants a commission and not every body wants to feel like they have to pay an artist to show their support and not every artist wants to set up a tip jar. Granted, most ppeople will feel that a like speaks louder than payment for a commission, because when You do a commission for someone, they are obligated to pay you for your work.

I haven't come across anyone in the furry community that doesn't release their Patreon-only content afterwards, so in a sense, it's just them giving you something a little extra before everyone else gets it, much like how game devs will send out early-access keys.

This game you're making with the aid of Patreon will be free to play, redistribute and do with as one pleases once you are finished with it?

Thats the intention, yes.

Then no offense, but maybe it's you that has the questionable business practices, however, the bottom line is, it's your work to do with as you please and see fit and who right does anyone have to say you're foolish in doing it the way you want to do it? Just a thought.

How dare I make a free game, what a monster!

it's your work to do with as you please and see fit and who right does anyone have to say you're foolish in doing it the way you want to do it?

Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?

Well that's my point. It's your choice. You have every right to make that decision and what others think about it doesn't really matter. That was you choice and it's awesome of you to do that. Others may think differently about using their artwork in other ways, so shaming them or saying how they do their thing in their own way isn't right. (though, it's not really free, free, since Patreon is paying for it's creation. If it were free free, there'd be no need for money at all to make it).

This guy.

You're horrible practices will ruin us all man. COME ON.

FOR FREEEEE?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-o.....tu.be&t=8s

This is pretty much THE reason I call it Jewtreon. The concept itself is perfectly okay, but just like with a lot of other concepts - like the concept of DLC - people seem to have turned it into an abomination by taking advantage of it, putting even some of the most basic content behind a paywall...and automatically dissing anyone who doesn't support them.

Problem is, I see more and more artists on FA, who aren't using Jewtreon Patreon to supplement their income - they're using it as a main income.....in addition to comparatively lazy attempts such as adoptables, the kind where you have one character with at least a dozen different (and oftentimes stupid) color variants.

Individual artists say $1 per month really isn't all that expensive - but when there are potentially hundreds of artists you can pledge to, all those little values add up to an amount a lot of people really can't afford. Also, some of the restricted content is simply....not good enough for me to pay for.

Naturally, no one can criticize the system, because as soon as you do so, not only do you get a verbal slap from the artist, but you have to deal with White Knights, SJWs in addition to a block, so you can't even defend yourself and let your opinion be heard. So many times I have seen messages like 'NO NEGATIVE STUFF OF ANY KIND OR YOU'LL BE BLOCKED!!!11!oneone' that it's almost like communism. :P

Blatant censoring, messages like 'you could see this if you were my patron!' and all the other jazz is what made me go from 'Patreon? Well, if it allows artists to make more money doing what they love...' to 'Fuck Jewtreon'.

So yeah. Fuck that shit.

Every time I've voiced my concern over artists getting a Patreon, either my voice didn't matter or they blocked me so...

Most patreon people be like this

:v

100% agreed with you though :I kinda feel trolled when something pops up with a huge P there >_>

This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPXOvNKdvUw

Wow... that is entirely too awesome to exist. But it does. And I'm glad.

A shame most people are so eager to use and abuse.. :T

Absolutely, positively, 100% AGREED!

Want to hear some REAL bullshit, however? One of the artists I've watched for a long time pretty much did this Patreon paywall nonsense in the past couple months, now using their sites to post preview images that pretty much say "Want to see it all? Well, FUCK YOU GIVE ME MONEY!", despite getting all defensive when they did. But the REAL kicker was a week or two ago, when they posted a journal kicking this idea around...

"So, some of you can't/won't give me money? Well, that's okay. Just give me free art every month! 3 sketches or 1 full picture a month gets you access to my Patreon content."

Serioulsy. What. The. Ungodly. FUCK?!?

So, first the artist in question completely slams their entire fanbase behind a paywall... but then they have the BALLS to say "give me free art, so I can show you art I'm doing for paying customers?" Also considering that most commissioners would charge as little as $10 bucks for a sketch?... TIMES THREE in order to view the Patreon content... MONTHLY?!? Pretty sure the Patronizers only are being charged 1 to 3 doll-hairs... which tells me that apparently, someone must think your art is pretty shitty...

You have to be one full-of-yourself-asshole to think that kind of shit up... even CONSIDER it.

I was worried that Patreon would bring out these types of greedy pricks... but holy shit... this is probably one of the reasons I do not support Patreon... or (as I put it before) "patronize" these "artists".

Heck, a very talented artist many people know by now (slugbox) has wholly admitted to be doing much of his art for the sake of making money (although it seemed partly as a joke) and he does tons of commissions... but unless the commissioner says they want to keep it private, he at least shows off his art to everyone. Why? Because IT GETS YOU NOTICED, which BRINGS IN MORE FANS and over time GETS YOU MORE COMMISSIONS, which ultimately means MORE MONEY. If ol' sluggy's admitting to being a "cash whore", then compared to some of these Patreon abusers, he's a goddamned SAINT!

Anyways, that's MY rant over...

Oh that was Kayla-Na, wasn't it? ;D

I am not saying who it was, since FA's rules do not allow people to talk negatively about other people in the community... I'm sure there's more than one person out there who's considered doing that kind of underhanded move, so I'm certain there will be multiple guesses...

The idea isn't entirely worthless, it's equivalent to trading, however the person giving art in exchange should be receiving something they find as equally valuable as what they're trading for.

Other than the fact that, if you're not paying the monetary fee, you're paying up to 10 times the amount (minimum) in artwork every month... and must continue to do so in order to keep seeing their art. The person in question is pretty much telling you that your art is barely worth anything... but their art? OOOH, you better be paying if you want to see it!

It's extremely douce-y.

I'm not agreeing with the amount they're asking for, I'm just saying that exchanging goods instead of money is an acceptable practice, in my opinion.

Oh sure... when the goods being exchanged are worth the value of money... but the artist in question is pretty much saying the gift art they're getting from people is worth about $1 a piece... which is pretty much saying the gift art is nearly worthless.

THIS.
how many fucking times have I told people this.

Good lord.
Patreon is like for comics or games or things that take a long fucking time.

Not for commission work!

I've always felt that Patreon was much more suited for semi-professional activities that cost a lot of money to produce but can't monetize via traditional mainstream media methods, with some of the mega-YouTube channels being the primary examples.

I thought about using Patreon for my vore art on DA, but I decided it wasn't worth annoying my fans for what would likely amount to little more than pocket change. Plus, I don't use Patreon because I prefer to directly commission artists that I like. I don't think it's reasonable to expect my own watchers to behave any differently. There are better avenues for value-added services that people won't revolt over, like prints and putting your images on zazzle goodies or selling calenders like SixthLeafClover does (and has been successful enough at that there's now several artists selling calenders).

Trying to sell the art itself on a monthly subscription (which is what most Patreons amount to) is just never going to work though. I'm not going to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do with their art, but I would ask to people considering using Patreon as a paywall to ask themselves why they expect to earn more money that way verses doing commissions or merchandising their existing and new designs.

I'll probably make a Patreon or something at some point and try to get people to pay me enough money so I won't have to work anymore (paying for my rent, food, clothing etc.). Obviously I'll create some kind of content in order to make people toss money at me. To me people can do whatever they want with their Patreon. People can just NOT give them money if they don't feel like it... though I do admit that I'm baffled at how some people throw like 800$ at some kid playing a video gaming on Twitter... WTF is wrong with people... I don't even... either people are too retarded to handle money, or have too much money...

Preach it, brutha!

i see what you did there :)

Exactly. The worst is when they start moving stuff behind the paywall because they feel "guilty" that they're not giving the Patreon people enough stuff. The mind boggles.

The Patreon bubble is going to burst soon, I feel.

I will agree, that I think it is a jerk move to go "If you backed me you could see 90% of my art!" I could understand maybe a few "Special" peices, though they don't get -teased- saying "Back me to see this!" They just are posted there quietly, so it's a bonus to those who are subscribed, and not used as a "PAY ME FOR MORE!" scream, Just a small note on the main page that, "Some art is posted on Patreon, that is not avalible for view here." or Better, Art that I put on patreon, Can be seen *insert time frame here* sooner, then It will be seen here on FA, No reduction if possible, just you see it -early- by comparison.

In a way, You could compare it to a Free to play game, with things you can buy, You shouldn't Punish your free to play players, by giving those who can pay, things that are exclusive, game changing items that are impossible to get.

However, If the item actually is a gameplay effect, Make ti so it can be earned, or eventually unlocked for the free people, If anything
The only pay for content, that is -only- pay for, is literally, Just visual content for a game, It makes -no- difference to the game other then
personal enjoyment for visual reasons.

Or in the art case, You are not punished for "You can't see this art because You suck and are poor!" but "You can enjoy my art, Without a problem, Though there are some special things I do have on my Patreon that can be enjoyed as well."

This should be stupidly obvious but no one seems to listen unless it is another artist saying it.

so then  Kayla-Na would be on this list

... who seems to be oblivious to the discussion as he talks the best way to circument piracy in his current journal.

I don't know anything about the artist so I'll be neutral. However, when they talk about "piracy" it sounds like they make a living off their art. So these people probably need it all. Not sure.

*she. Also, I can't really see that as piracy if the guest artists are drawing art for her Patreon as well if they're getting some or all of the Patreon art in return. Probably an imbalance trade, but too potent to say piracy.

Patreon artists that censor commissions are just silly to me.

"This person paid me so you could all see his character. Pay me to see his character!"

When you can just go to the commissioner's page and see the uncensored version.

Man, I really liked/do like the idea behind patreon, I don't like how artists abuse the system. Most of the ones getting away with it are the "top tier" artists, doing as mentioned in previous comments where only folks with SUPER deep wallets get anywhere at all. It's sad, because it's "setting a standard" for the "up and coming" to copy their idol artists with the same method eventually. It should be a way to gain a little extra and make "crowd funding" certain things a little easier/more reliable. Sometimes it feels like some artists loose touch with their fanbase and forget that the majority are struggling in a time where min. wage is the most common wage (at least where I live and with those I talk too), and it's hardly enough to survive on. Let alone afford the LUXURY we offer are "furry" artists, or even artists at all.

Several art pals have been hounding me for a few months now, telling me to get an account there when I mention taking on more work, but I refuse every time. Until I can make a "crow funding" type comic, free for all to see, and keep it going on the side. I'm not interested. My commissioners and fanbase, no matter how big or small, is not my personal bank. I'm not going to squeeze what little they have out of them. I'm not trying to be that greedy, and some of these artist, that's what it feels like.

I agree with you. While I'm neutral to people doing it, it does seem to get excessive.

:)

Any time and this journal did help me find a few more artists to watch as well, yours included.

I saw! I can't thank you enough for your support! <3

Perhaps someday you'll nab some art from me to fill your page D: It's empty man!

Perhaps one day.

Some of the people, seth-iova for example, are doing comics that while being created will be edited for non-patreon viewers as it is posted page-by-page, but when the comic is actually finished it will be posted free of editing to all viewers.

I don't exactly see a huge problem with this type of activity since the end result is that they're still showing everything to people without permanently gating it.

As long as Patreon artists aren't posting `thumbnails` as full posts advertising constantly, I don't mind an edited version of the full work as long as you can still see enough of the work to fully appreciate it.

This is exactly what patreon is about IMO. Having people donate to see unfinished/WIP content, giving them a hand in things (with polls and stuff about the story board for example) before it is done and released for everyone to see. That, and extra content maybe.

My husband Skidd and I have been using Patreon to fund out webcomic UberQuest, it's not a porn comic so there is no reason to censor things.We've provided all but maybe 2-3 images free for public viewing, along with doing monthly free sketch raffles,an AskBlog which is almost like a second comic, making merchandise and doing commissions for higher tiers (old tiers used to give cameos to patrons in the comic too..) . Funnily enough we felt censoring was the way to go- all the other Patreons were making more money and exclusively censored art,

Our comic is also publicly posted on the Katbox twice weekly - which is obviously free to view..

Now briefly Skidd had a Patreon for adult work, it'd be released after the month was over - these were behind a paywall for the given month and people flipped out - this is of course when Patreon was new. It only paid out well for a bit, but pledges started to drop because of leaks and it just didn't feel worthwhile to do - he has since then replaced it with an adult AskBlog free-to-view for all.


Now while we aren't really making the bank as big as the paywall exclusive porn artists, we are having alot of fun doing a clean webcomic. We tried some different business practices and see what worked.

The sad thing is that it's working. One artist who springs to mind righ now is close to 2000 bucks per month on Patreon, and besides sketches and FA commissions everything is hidden behind the Patreon paywall.
That's what I expected when Patreon caught on in the community, that everyone would use Patreon to create their own "mini paysite". And apparently this is even more effective than having a regular paysite!
Luckily the artists who I watch don't do that and many other artists came up with very cool Patreon concepts! For example,  onta made one of their Paysites completely free to access for everyone once their Patreon campaign reached a certain goal! That is really cool.
Or as you mentioned, making higher resolution versions available through Patreon.
I'm glad that Patreon exists because it makes new projects more easy for artists, and it allows them to live from their work more easily.
But yeah, abusing it to create a paywall when the content was completely free to access before... That's pretty low.

Yeah, the good patreons still release the same quality content for general audiences but use patreon for project support or for more personal rewards like sketches and other things where you get to personally interact with the artist by pledging enough.

But it seems like 95% of people don't offer very exciting rewards to me, especially for the amounts they're asking. Discounts on commissions and high-res art usually don't really make me more interested in supporting.

I sorta feel the same about subscription sites as well. Money's hard to come by, so I get why people want to make patreons and such, but if I can't keep something, it's not worth the money (I can't even get a job or disability benefits). I signed up to this one site hearing that a game would be released that month for free to users, but then it got delayed and I couldn't get it before my subscription ran out. I dunno, maybe I'm just self-entitled or something.

But you're a popfur so you don't need things like patreon to make loads of cash.

I think that artists deserve payment, and that they have the right to that expectation; they can waive it if they like, but art is not an essential good or service.

I do take exception to seeing FA treated as a billboard. That's sleazy, like if U2 were to put on a free public concert, stop halfway through the first piece, and tell people where they can pay to hear the rest. If you're not paying for the ad space, you'd best make it worth the venue's time.

The way I use Patreon is that I let patreons see scetches and the progress of my drawings (and sneak peeks into my reviews and countdowns if I have made enough progress on them).
But I'm not sure if I made the rewards I have exciting enough, or if people like that I even use Patreon.

I would offer WIPs, character art, maps, ect. to my supporters, but still have the full comic for free.

I've begun to hate Patreon just a tad because lots of artists have started taking to it and... tend to use it as a way to just get more money than what they get for commissions, which is fine in and of itself. But then they only LIMIT these images to those who are willing to pay the extra cash on Patreon just so that they can see the damn things. They're blocking out a huge chunk of their viewerbase. It's being hidden behind a pay wall which is... quite frankly, an extraordinarily disgusting practice. Sure, it's fine to have some sort of award for Patreon supporters, but to make the art ITSELF the award is just fucking disgusting and really should be frowned upon.

You say that to many artists though and suddenly you're "feeling entitled"!! Le-Gasp!

I want to favorite this journal

This is actually a thing that people do..? I've seen artists do teaser images for paystie work but...there are artists who honestly put personal work behind pay-walls..?

Isn't the point of creating art, aside to fill a creative need, to be seen by others? If you're not sharing it, what's the point? I get having bills to pay but...the whole concept is kind of ridiculous..

I've just unwatched someone called "Angel27" who done this. Great art, explains his position well, but I don't agree with it.

I know the artist you're talking about, actually. Did he put random personal work behind a pay-wall or image series, portfolios, etc. that were designed specifically to bring in money?

His most recent upload is a "censored" (looks more like he cheaply brushed over the crotch tbh), "go support me on patreon for the uncensored version" image, the previous 10 or so were the exact same, but plastered with orange text everywhere.

Ah.. That kinda stuff bothers me. I get needing to pay bills..ugh, seriously I get it. To me, it...always seemed like spitting in the face of your fans when you lock everything behind a paywall like that. No one likes being coerced into paying for something..

The way I've always wanted to do it, and the way I've seen it done most successfully, supporting an artist monetarily should get you extra things aside the gallery, not access to the gallery itself. Sketches, hi-res files, PSDs, process vids, advance notice on commissions...all that is such a better alternative to charging an admission fee just to view the artwork. And people wonder why brick-and-mortar art galleries are fast-approaching extinction..

I agree! But the second you argue with them, they plaster you as a self entitled cunt who expects to get everything for free. *facepalm*.

I agree with that too, and is the way I suspect it's SUPPOSED to be used. I keep using a hammer metaphor for this. Patreon is a hammer, and most artists seem to be using said hammer to hit PEOPLE on the head, rather than nails (or, in a less right way, screws).

It makes you realise though, they don't care who watches them, they just care about the ones who throw dorrahs around.

Aye.. It's not that they expect to get everything for free, it's that they feel kind of...insulted. They've been supporting an artist all that time and then suddenly because they can't afford to support them monetarily, they're not worth anything anymore.

Heh. True.. Those kind of people tend to only be in it for the money, but I've seen artists with decent fanbases who are well-respected pull this shit too.. It sucks because it gives the rest of us a bad reputation before people even get to know us as individual artists.

Yes, your opinion is clearly the correct one because you have typed them.

BTW, what exactly do you consider to be a "Pay wall". What, in your opinion is the right ratio of artwork created for a Patreon vs artwork distributed for public consumption for free. And I base this off of artwork originally generated and created by the artist themselves. No offense to what you do, because what you do is amazing, but in the end, a lot of the artwork you post to your DA page isn't work originally created by your own hand, so I'm not totally sure it's a fair comparison.

Patreon was meant to be a donation box. A system for artists to gain funding for their projects, which would eventually be showcased (in other words released) to the public. Nothing more, nothing less. It's really an artist's decision if they wish to provide rewards to those who donate. The whole point of donating, anyway, is to give money or something of worth to someone or a group of someones with no intention of receiving anything in return.

So, I really don't agree with artists actually hiding their sketches or already-finished projects behind Patreon just to make a quick buck. And, I'm glad someone as recognizable as you has spoken out about this issue.

THANK. YOU.
Holy shit, thank you.
This has been bothering me forever and... honestly I'm more and more afraid to speak my mind for fear of being ridiculed or ganged up on by writhing masses. There's just way too much animosity on both sides and you can't say anything against the one side or you're a bigot.
Fuck... thank you though. Gosh. <3

Fight fire with fire: "Hey you want a viewer to actually give a shit about your uncropped uncensored exclusive artwork ONLY on patreon? Well now you can! All you have to do is sign up and support me on MY patreon! By donating $1, thank you for your support of wanting me as your possible future patreon! For $20 patreons, i'll actually give a fuck of donating to you and your exclusive-only "P" uncensored contents! For $50 patreons, i'll actually watch your account! For $100 patreons i'll actually comment on your exclusive contents! For $150 patreons, i'll fave your contents! For $200 patreons i'll even SPREAD your patreon cause for support on all my journals, tumblr, twitter, and reddit! So become my patreon today so i can become YOUR patreon! Otherwise my glimpse and care on your super exclusive patreon ONLY content will be censored with a big "P" on it! "

would be a nice patreon joke account to the artists who abuses Patreon as a paywall/subscription tool as means of making their own little pile of cash.

I respect the artists who knows how to properly use it, by giving patreons early, extra BUT fair contents while allowing the general public to view it on later date for free. I see that as a positive way to gain more patreons in the future because it encourages for more completed/extra contents for both communities. "No non-patreons allowed" practices are starting to get ridiculous to the point it hurts me to seeing some of them were my favorite artists who i watched in the past. There are many OUTRAGEOUS paywalls out there, and this one is one of them i seen similar: Patreons who donate this fixed amount, will get a chance to commission meeeee (or be selected by RNG)!!! Hurraaaay!!! You PAY to GET a chance to PAY for a commission.

Oh well what can we do other than criticize. Its the internet, and these type of guys are popular enough where nothing will faze them. Just glad you are the few i seen who sees the abuse of Patreon as another Clubestripes, Sexyfur, etc.

Keep it real Jasonafex and Kabier!

Y'know... I'm actually gonna start plastering that all over images covered to death with patreon shit. :D

I fully agree with this, earlierartists earned money by doing commissions, now patreon is there and ruins the relationship between artists and their followers, making their art visible just for those who pay.

Its a nice concept, no doubt, but its like setting the fans under pressure and only money resolves the problem, this way many artists will loose fans, because not everyone can afford this or even doesnt have paypal for that.
This ends up in anger and frustrations and some fans who cant pay will feel betrayed by their idols.

Not to mention if you have a hand full of favorite artists, you never could pay them all u less you are spending half your money just to view contentyou eventually dont even like all the time.

I am curious where this is gonna end or what this will turn into

i agree with this. its a pretty good sign that artists who do stuff like that only care about there fans money and those who blindly support it anyways are simply being complete tool's to them.

it's basically an artist holding up a sign that says 'i just want your money'.
also im glad im not the only one who dislikes these particular patreons.

its funny how this is acceptable on patreon. but think of it this way. what if this was a thing on fa? i bet if this was a feature on fa people would all hate it and demand it be taken down if we had to pay just so we can view an artists gallery. imagine in real life a guy walks up to you saying 'hey im an artist want to see my artwork? well for just 10$ ill let you look through my sketchbook all you want. but you have to give my sketchbook back once your finished'

and imagine if fa had a feature where artists could hide there gallery off to those who dont pay 5-10$ or whatever just to view there gallerys? i think that would be FA signing its name in the death note pretty much. *lol yes i mean the one from the anime death note*

in my opinion at least that is what i think about those types of patreons.

What is your position on this situation:

A patreon that is this sort of "paywall" model but that for being a patron you get a free sketch a month which quality is higher than the price of what you are donating.

If this was the case, do you still consider it a bad way to use patreon?