I'll follow you to whatever payment method you need, Gulos.

That's very kind of you Slither =)!

I will follow you, me too, and i think i'm not the only one ^-^, right =D ?

I'm still not sure what this paypal drama is about

paypal can choose to charge you "fines" of several thousands of dollars if they decide they don't approve of the product/service you are selling under the new ToS

back in October my account was frozen/closed over "terms of use violations" and when I asked them for proof/evidence (one of the transaction numbers they cited DIDN'T EVEN EXIST) they claimed I was making false statements to them and extended the length of my account termination without any actual response or explanation. this is the kind of business PayPal is

or for simply using "gift" instead of "service" for payment options, fining BOTH parties if assumed to be dodging fees.

The initial drama was over ToS/AUP term confusion regarding Intellectual Property right, which (I believe) has since been laid to rest. My current concern is the ToS/AUP change where you're agreeing to being fined X amount of dollars for an AUP violation.

That's what I want to know. Paypal is kind of THE site for monetary transactions, so...what are we - the buyers - supposed to do?

read the journal maybe? it flat out tells you....

"What, you expect me to read?" 8D

"wat is teh name of teh musik in da descripshun"

Or maybe, just maybe they DID read it and got confused.

That's a thing that can happen, no need to be like that about it.

^^^^ THIS.

Payrude - TOStorm.

Okay that made me laugh. XD

why do corporations do shit like this? oh wait, they're greedy evil fucks.
this is stupid what paypal is doing, no excuse, just greed.

I imagine they're covering their bottom line. I recall reading an article where paypal was fined several million dollars after allowing various transactions to take place that were questionable in nature. Applying fees to transaction that violate their AUP seems like a good way to pad their lost numbers, and act as a deterrent for any future violations so they don't get in to more trouble.

gonna self-promote a little here, but

SIMPLE GUIDE TO PAYPAL ALTERNATIVES: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/15473003/

cause seriously, fuck paypal

Awesome =)!

The problem with those is that most of them are U.S. only. Square would seem to be the only option for even something as nearby to the US as Canada. Until more payment methods go international, paypal will dominate.

Agree completely, I wish there were more international options :/

As a full time UK artist who relies on paypal for payments... Seeing how every major alternative is U.S only is depressing :c

The good news is Square is actively working on expanding to other countries, so it'll be around EVENTUALLY...

Thank you! I've never used anything other than paypal to purchase commissions. This is very helpful. I've been wary of other sites as I'm not used to them.

You're welcome :) I was scared to try anything new until PayPal shut me down and I HAD to use something else... I was really sad there was no other simply stated info out there ><

I saw you asked about bitcoin below, xial wrote a brief thing about them here: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6576218/

I was told that Google Wallet is reserved for online platform developers, such as Google Play.. the folks at Google were kind enough to dig through all of their policies to answer my many questions (it took them a while)

I don't know if it might have been that way in the past, but it's not the case now. :)
The only thing close to that I'm aware of is that sellers using Google wallet can only be paid via paypal if it's through an app on the Google store.. Otherwise anyone can just send a request for payment via email.

The mail conversation I had with them was just this week ..I doubt they'd change it that quickly cx

Edit:

From May 9, 2015:

The Google Wallet Merchant Center is used by developers and merchants to manage their orders and receive payments for their content.

• Google Play In-app billing and paid apps
Google Play Developers can use In-app billing and sell paid applications if they're located in one of the supported merchant locations. You may sign up for a merchant account by following the steps in this link.
• The Chrome Web Store
The Chrome Web Store is an online marketplace where users can find a wide range of extensions, themes, and apps designed for the Google Chrome browser. Be sure to check if you're located in a supported developer country. Then get started by visiting the Chrome Webstore Help Center and creating your Chrome Web Store Dashboard.

To further simplify, if you are selling your content from your own website, Google will not be able to provide the payment solutions you are looking for. Currently, we are catering to developers on Google Play and the Chrome Webstore only. Since you are also looking for our content policy, you may use this link as reference.

Thank you for sharing this. I've never done commissions but I've always been wary of PayPal and this is useful. I know what I will be researching this weekend.
Again, thanks.

Then can i please commission you before July 1st? Lmao.

I don't think I'll be able to accept any work before then, I'm afraid. Apologies!

That doesn't apply to "gift" fraud, that is covered by a separate portion of their AUP. That section you highlighted applies to felony level fraud, money laundering, that sort of stuff. It effectively has also been debunked, just more people that haven't read all of the information, and are picking out things to be afraid of.

I appreciate the information! I was pretty sure they were using this to dissuade people who are cheating the system and costing them money and time on a large scale; not some adult art here or there. But, do you have a link to that information? Or is it just legaleese speak that I just overlooked?

You wouldn't happen to have some proof to back this up, would you? As far as I could tell from reading it myself, there doesn't seem to be any specific wording that would indicate that it's only certain specific AUP violations they could fine you for. It seems to say that any AUP violation could result in fines.

Well, if you read here:
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/m.....e-full#top-rev

It doesn't seem to mention misuse of the 'send as gift' option in the AUP at all, I think it is somewhere in the ToS which is separate. The fines are specifically for the AUP so unless you are selling drugs or guns or conducting large scale scams, I think you are safe

You're correct, it doesn't mention that in the AUP, but if you read the restricted activities section (https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/m.....eement-full#r9), there are several points that abusing "send as gift" could fall under.

Under the penalties for violating anything in the restricted activities section, it goes on to say that any violation could result in, at minimum, a $2500 fine at PayPal's sole discretion. Still seems like reason to be cautious.

I have excerpts of all the sections I think are relevant in a post below if you'd like to have a look: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:45746628

And if you don't want to read all of that, these specific points from the restricted activities section could potentially cover abusing "send as gift.:

9.1 Restricted Activities. In connection with your use of our website, your Account, the PayPal Services, or in the course of your interactions with PayPal, other Users, or third parties, you will not:

f. Provide false, inaccurate or misleading information;
k. Conduct your business or use the PayPal Services in a manner that results in or may result in complaints, Disputes, Claims, Reversals, Chargebacks, fees, fines, penalties or other liability to PayPal, other Users, third parties or you;
t. Circumvent any PayPal policy or determinations about your Account such as temporary or indefinite suspensions or other Account holds, limitations or restrictions, including, but not limited to, engaging in the following actions: attempting to create new or additional PayPal Account(s) when an Account has a negative balance or has been restricted, suspended or otherwise limited; creating new or additional PayPal Accounts using information that is not your own (e.g. name, address, email address, etc.); or using someone else’s PayPal Account;

The underline missed the important part of that sentance,
Circumvent any PayPal policy or determinations about your Account
That clause is referring specifically to ban/restriction evasion, not blanketing all PayPal policies ;o
I am on my phone so I am having trouble copy pasting my source, but I would be more concerned about PayPal's porn policy than their payment options one :p

Sorry for the slow reply. It was ridiculously late and I had to get some sleep.

The bit you're talking about...

"t. Circumvent any PayPal policy or determinations about your Account such as temporary or indefinite suspensions or other Account holds, limitations or restrictions, including, but not limited to, engaging in the following actions: attempting to create new or additional PayPal Account(s) when an Account has a negative balance or has been restricted, suspended or otherwise limited; creating new or additional PayPal Accounts using information that is not your own (e.g. name, address, email address, etc.); or using someone else’s PayPal Account;"

The way I interpret that is that each underlined part of the bolded section is its own separate statement. I read it to mean that (a). circumventing any PayPal policy (such as don't abuse "send as gift") is against their ToS and (b). circumventing any determinations about your account, such as suspensions or restrictions they have applied to your account, is against their ToS.

I don't really read those two things as a statement about one thing, but about two things. The first seems to me to be a blanket statement about circumventing any PayPal policy, and the second seems to be about circumventing restrictions they've put on your account.

Either way, the porn policy is still very relevant, and as much as people are willing to fly under the radar (and many do successfully), there's always a chance that someone might put something stupid in a note or you might get a random investigation from PayPal. I just think it's better to think about that while you have the luxury of time, rather than having to deal with it immediately in the event that something goes wrong.

It's counterproductive to put blanket policy statement within very specific segments of their AUP, I read it as you are not to circumvent any default policy that applies to your account (i.e. having multiple accounts to avoid the money transfer limit), or any additional determinations that are added at a later time not already described in their ToS (Such as creating an account because your other one has a negative balance).

Aside from that, if you look at their adult content policy, they say that they don't support the sale of 'obscene' materials (that which have no educational or artistic value) or digital pornography. Though some furry artwork could probably easily be considered obscene, the thing is, these artists are not selling their digital artwork itself, but are charging for the service of creating it. This section applies primarily to using Paypal for access to porn sites, and otherwise charging to download pre rendered art, photographs, etc. Commissions should be exempt because you are being charged for labor, not necessarily the product, and in the worst case scenario, you should still be able to mail out a print of the artwork to the commissioner and still satisfy the requirement of not selling digital pornography.

I spent a while calling up PayPal today, and after getting several customer service representatives who were totally unaware of this section of the user agreement and AUP and unable to give me any sort of straight answer about it, I was able to get through to a manager.

The manager confirmed that the fine would only apply to highly illegal activities and potentially to repeatedly attempting to circumvent account limitations. I asked about the "certain sexually oriented materials or services" part of the AUP, and the manager told me that this mainly applies to human trafficking and prostitution, though may also apply to photographic pornography in some cases.

When I asked if it would apply to hand-drawn traditional or digital pornographic artwork of anthropomorphic animals and/or mythological/fantasy creatures, the manager had to put me on hold and contact the department that deals with risk to PayPal and compliance with the AUP. That department said that it would have to review the work to give a definitive answer, and that it would basically come down to whether or not PayPal is comfortable being associated with whatever artwork you're creating. They may consider furry to be on a thin line between acceptable and bestiality. I was provided an email address that is a direct line to that department and told that anyone who wanted to sell digital pornographic anthropomorphic art and make sure they were safe to do so could send links to their website or samples of their work to the department to be reviewed. That email address is aup@paypal.com.

As for sending payment as a gift, they said don't ask your customers to do it. If your customers do do it, refund them and send an invoice. The only way this could potentially lead to you being fined is if you had your account closed or limited for breaking that rule and then you attempted to circumvent the closure or limitation despite several warnings.

All in all, you're right. According to the manager I spoke to, most of us will never have to worry about any of this stuff.

But how else can we circlejerk about the eeeeevil corporations?

I mean, I don't like PayPal much myself, but come on.

Well...this might be a GOOD reason to drop paypal. o.o

At the very least, a reason to look in to some alternatives =).

If you follow these three simple steps, you'll never have a problem:

1) never say anything in comments that will raise a red flag (i.e. "Here's payment for the nude, adult, penis in the vagina artwork you're doing for me!! Thank you!!)

2) never send payment as a gift (receiver doesn't have to pay fees and doing getting gifts from 'random' people like this all the time WILL raise red flags with paypal)

3) artists should consider sending invoices -- they are more secure and protect both parties much better than leaving something in the hands of a commissioner who may be "new"

My question is about number 2 : What if you're sending part of a refund?
Lets say I quoted someone $11 for shipping and it only came to $6. I usually refund the extra $5 as a gift. Do I need to stop doing like this? Is there a better option that we know of?

With all of my products, Fursuit related, I do it with the Goods and Services, NEVER accepting a payment as a gift. So I know I'm fine there, but I'm just concerned with how I do/did refunds of that very small amount.

In that respect, I wouldn't tell the commissioner that the shipping was cheaper. You'll know the more accurate price for next time. MANY people out there charge a flat rate for shipping, like $10 -- because sometimes it comes out to be $5, sometimes it might be $11 or $12... As the artist shipping the work you always hope to come in under, and pocket the few extra dollars.

That's how most people I know operate. I don't see it as cheap or underhanded, that's the price they set and the price paid by the commissioner.

So, again, in your case with fursuit products, just stick with a standard rate of shipping for whatever you ship out. (like $15 for the headpiece, $10 for feet, whatever price you set you should keep consistent)

Ah, okay. For some reason I always felt bad not refunding the difference, even if it was a few bucks. I guess more so because the package itself usually says how much it was to ship. I feel a little more comfortable not doing that if there is a large base of people who do that.

Thank you so much for the quick answer!<3

Its no problem. Plenty of times artists just say $10 and I see the package will say they spent like, $6.70 or somewhere around the $7 for USPS Priority Shipping. I don't care about a few dollars here and there. I would never risk a good, healthy relationship and good business with an artist over a few dollars. If I was a dick about a few bucks, I wouldn't expect them to accept a commission from me ever again.

Think of it like normally expecting to pay $20 for a service you regularly use as a part of doing business, and finding out on that particular day that you're getting a discount due to an on-going sale. You'd consider that money saved on your bottom line, wouldn't you? :)

This is where people say "shipping and handling"
This way, that 10 covers the 6.50 in shipping, and the rest left over is for your time, your "handling" fee.

Packaging, driving to the shipper, etc.

I'm not sure how long you can use the option for/if there's a cut-off point, but I've always sent partial refunds for shipping or anything like that through the original transaction. You just go to where it says to send a refund when you're looking at the transaction details. You can send a full or partial refund then. It doesn't take out any fees sending it back to them, and actually it shows what you're sending, and what paypal will refund from fees. (Usually not much, a few cents.)

In the times I've done this, it has been issuing a partial refund on an invoice. Paypal fees are removed from this refunded amount so you don't get charged twice for doing it.

Very good advice~! Unfortunately the risk is still too high for me, especially with already having AUP violations under my belt and on their records.

Well, if you consider your previous violations as being at the felony level, then maybe. But if it was because someone put "penis" or "vagina" in the comment section once or twice, you'll still be fine. Paypal isn't stupid. They want our money, whether or not its for adult stuff -- they just don't want to KNOW about it.

Why exactly do you think it requires committing a felony in order to have your account investigated, actioned, or restricted? They lay out all the activities they consider breaches of their restricted activities and their acceptable use policy, and there are plenty of them that aren't even remotely illegal--just things that they don't like.

They also have a long list of actions they will take against you for any of those breaches, and none of them say "only if you do this specific thing." It clearly says they may take any and all actions listed, and more.

I spent the day calling PayPal until I was able to connect with a manager who actually understood the user agreement. She confirmed to me that you would have to be doing something illegal or repeatedly and flagrantly breaking the rules in order to be at risk of the $2500 fine. The rest of what I found out can be seen here: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6741659/

Bada bing. Called it. But thanks for confirming for everyone here.

Basically this. Done this from day one, and never had a single issue.

This raises good points and your following replies to other people have given me more information to consider as well. Especially the invoice thing.
Thank you for sharing your opinion on the matter as all the information will be added to my pool of research this weekend.

you could make it a requirement that commissioners do not leave any notes in the paypal money sending process, also invoices are still a good idea and make sure the 'no address needed' is always the default setting each customer uses, that alone will save a lot of artists trouble if the commissioners are reminded of this consistently it shouldnt be an issue...but whatever you feel you need to do, its worse for some artists because apparently some dumbass people have been talking explicitly about the commission they were receiving in full detail in the paypal note they send to the artist...like...hello...are you insane..

Theres a problem with the whole "no address needed"
Paypal removed it due to the future ToS change where to give protection to digital goods (current paypal ToS dont protect digital goods)

I definitely always tried to use the invoice option in the past; but (at least for me) I've already got a red flag associated with my account, so the overall risk is too high in my opinion.

better safe than sorry

A bit off topic but are you comfortable discussing the three AUP violations that Paypal terminated your account over? Had your customer reported you or did Paypal find out some other way?

This is good info, I want to switch to Squarecash but I'm concerned my customers won't follow.

Taking Square Cash exclusively isn't a great option because it's US debit card only (for now), but it's one of the best I've used for the folks that can!

Yeah, there's just not too many other options if you're not in the US! And they seem to have similar restrictions to Paypal too. I'm just trying to scout out other options at this point. :)

I posted a link a little bit up the page with the info I was able to find when I had so sniff around back in October :)

Yeah I saw! Helpful comparison, thank you for making the guide.

I don't mind elaborating.

This is purely speculation, since I have neither proof, nor did I ask paypal directly why I was caught violating the AUP, but I believe that I wasn't reported by anyone. Rather I simply reached a certain number of transactions through my account that triggered it to be checked to make sure nothing was up. Upon checking they saw indications that implied, or directly stated adult content was involved in the transactions in question, and as such constituted a violation.

I guess for anyone else concerned about 'being caught', I should probably say I wasn't as discreet as I could have been. I was a little more concerned in making sure people knew what they were buying from me, rather than offering a vaguely worded product. I've always kind of accepted that Paypal was a timebomb this way (at least for myself), and if I'm correct in my understanding of the new AUP and ToS, I'm rather glad I had my violations happen before the new rules were put in to place.

Paypal, unfortunately, has a really wonderful globally reaching monopoly. There's definitely some cool alternatives like Squarecash/payments, but it really sucks that there isn't an alternative that's as inclusive of as many countries as paypal is. Sometimes it's really difficult to even know if your customers will be even able to follow you, even if they want to.

I used to do this all the time in the past. Could they check my account after said date and say HEY!!! You violated this back in January!! Here is 10 grand in violation fees!

Yep, I'm done with PayPal now.

I'll most likely still use them for buying music on bandcamp, but that might be it XD;.

So what adult material can artists sell? I went back under their acceptable stuff, and couldn't find the specific bit about not allowing adult artwork. I wasn't sure if it referred just to adult paraphernalia like toys and such

It covers all adult works including drawings as some artist in the past lost their paypal when paypal learned a process was for adult works (why artist started to stress to not post anything in the note/memo area when doing a service)

That's what I thought, but I was reading back over their policies and couldn't find things that pointed out the adult material specifically. Maybe I'm just blind! I just know barely anyone's been busted for selling adult artwork, even people who have a lot of people who hate them who could report them.

My account was limited for "violation of PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy regarding your sales / offers of Adult services" without proof (the transaction numbers were for clean artwork or didn't exist at all), so I know it happens -_-

Yeah, I've heard some really shitty stuff about paypal, but I haven't heard about anyone specifically losing their account due to actual violations (just people false reporting or someone hacking it, or someone in paypal abusing their position). That doesn't make it better; if anything it's worse and shows how awful their customer service is.

yes, it's absolutely worse because it means a false accusation is all it takes - better to use another service. they held over $100 from me for three months because of this thing, I had to borrow money from a friend to pay bills because of it :/

Oh i have seen many folks busted for using paypal for porn art. Its actually why FA cant accept donation money a long time ago due to paypal finding out this site hosted porn.

That was because someone actually reported them. Honestly, I'm surprised at how many artists are able to use it and are popular enough to have people dislike them, and still they're able to use it and never get reported.

Cause they take over by using invoices or request the person to put no further info but their name. Some was caught cause someone put orgy in the subject line or provide additional info that is explicit in the memo area. Paypal's system is semi automated to pick up on key words to catch folks for violating the no adult items rule.

I don't actually know the answer to this. Purely through word of mouth I thought there used to be a distinction between digital and physical products, but from reading the AUP, the only mention I can find was the following:

Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

2.relate to transactions involving: (i) certain sexually oriented materials or services

Source: https://www.paypalobjects.com/webst.....eptableuse.pdf

I imagine you'd have to contact paypal directly to find out if your adult materials are the certain ones allowed or not. Based off of personal experience I can conclude that mine were the type not allowed.

Thank you, I couldn't find it on their site anywhere.

Unless you are doing federally fraudulent things or running a business where all money processes going through gifts than services. You should worry BUT you have dealt with them in the past and could of been fined by them for those issues, so it is best to move to a different service but i believe not many actually accept adult works using their services or isnt international.

There are absolutely artists on this website who require every transaction be sent as a gift, so the more artists know about these changes, the better.

No artist should be doing gifts mostly cause paypal wont help dispute it if said artist dont do the work. Currently its said to do invoices as its safer as the artist is in control of the information and some pointed out its tax deductible.

These artists risk saving $1 or $2 here and there as a gift versus a transaction, keeping Paypal out of the loop. The gift option was only ever meant for when people want to send money as a birthday present or something, yet people take advantage of the system and the service provided. You fuck the system, and they will eventually come for your ass. Plus this is coming from a person who pays for these fees for the artists I work with 99% of the time anyway.

You are preaching to the choir. I have seen artists who have been politely informed that they are breaching Paypal's rules but continue to do it anyway. Fees are a cost of business just like taxes, which I doubt these artists take care of either. It's unprofessional.

Damn, I didn't even realize Paypal warns people. "Hey, stop trying to dick us around, and we won't come after you."

And still people have the nads to be like, "FUCK YOU PAYPAL, I WANT TO USE YOU AND NOT PAY YOU. YOU ASSHOLES!!"

Try telling that to a whore, jk jk.

Ah, sorry, I meant that other artists and customers warned them they were breaking Paypal's ToS, not Paypal themselves. Pretty sure they just bring the hammer down and don't listen to justifications. :P

Its also funny the reason paypal is like this is cause a few years ago thr IRS started to bug em about folks using paypal and not doing the txes. Its why paypal have a rule of folks should be doing their taxes on their work if they cross a certain money amount a year threshold. Heck they will gladly help you do the tax work by providing the information you need to do so.

Yeah, I think a LOT of people don't realize that by screwing over Paypal with using the "gift" option and NOT paying fees, the IRS calls us Paypal and says, "How is it that such a large percentage of people using your service are sending gifts. Well, you know what? We don't fucking care. Here's the bill for X number of dollars your business helps send back and forth."

Hence, Paypal is put under the gun by the IRS, ergo, users are put under the gun with stricter AUPs to scare the crap out of people who shouldn't have been gaming or screwing the system in the first place.

If you are doing things correctly, you have NOTHING to worry about with Paypal.

Those that HAVE been screwing Paypal over, SHOULD be worried.

Pretty much my thoughts.

I saw an artist say that their commissioners need to pay the paypal fee, too. That's deliberately against Paypal's terms of service. I don't understand why people don't just charge a few more. I think it's super skeevy (not to mention not allowed) to expect your commissioners to pay the fees

Exactly! It reminds me of brick and mortar stores that try to pass the merchant fee on to customers who want to pay with a credit card. Just as skeevy and it doesn't exactly make them look professional in that case either.

I charge people for additional fees, say they choose to send me €20 and the fees would take 10 out because of the system they're using or currency conversion or other fees on their end.. my personal/account fees are my costs only and that can't be taken out of customers.. so if Patreon takes $2 out of my €20 commission I wouldn't complain, since that's my account fees

You pay what's on the invoice.. everything else is my expense — as it should be!

Also: fees for materials required or third-party fees in the production of their stuff.. important! They can have the new art supplies they funded (if they desire), but when I need something just for their work it's only fair they provide the means since I'm too poor to just stock up on all of it ^-^;

I have to disagree a little on the brick and mortar one.

On the smaller stores that pass this on is kind of necessary. In order to use Square for instance they automatically take out $0.30 + 3% out of every transaction. That can virtually kill just about most margin on small items like soda or candy and other items that are in the lower dollar ranges that you often see at things like local food/gas stops in areas.

When it comes to larger stores though it's not really an issue because they're typically dealing in larger transaction dollar ranges and that take from the credit card thing is too minimal to even consider wasting the customers time with. At small stores it's just kind of an accepted thing because we understand that we're inconveniencing the store itself by not using cash. I know personally I've never minded paying for the convenience of using a Card at these small time stores because I choose not to carry cash on hand.

I've spoken to the owner of a small convenience store/deli (not a chain) that I go to often and he says that while the thought of the fees bug him when he sees someone buying a pack of gum with a credit card, he would never pass the fees on to the customer because 1) it's very clearly against the merchant agreement he has with Visa and Mastercard and 2) it's bad press. It leaves the customer with a "gross feeling" as he put it. I still say that even fees like that are an accepted cost of doing business and that passing them on to the customer is unprofessional.

Now, I have never encountered a store here in Canada with Square enabled so I can't comment on that, only on credit card merchant fees.

it may just be more of a common thing down here in the states then perhaps. I'll say i've never had a gross feeling from paying a little extra because I didn't have cash on me. I've always kinda felt that was more my inconvenience than the store owners since I could of just paid in cash. Either way it's not something ya see very often regardless.

When it comes to something like paypal though.. then yeah. I whole heartedly agree you shouldn't be directly forcing your customers to pay any fees. Those fee's should be built into your pricing .

Could be a culture thing too! It`s become quite uncommon to use cash here, I think I`ve heard that debit is more commonly used here than in the States.

Certainly possible.

but man i feel for that shop-keeper....

using a card for a pack of gum..... just makes you want to smack people sometimes.

I'm definitely looking in to different services, but you're right! Very, very few accept adult works, and even fewer allow for international use.

Out of curiosity, what were the violations that you were allegedly violating?

I violated section "2.(h) certain sexually oriented materials or services," under the Prohibited Activities section by selling adult artwork.

which is odd since they some how allow certain other adult things which pisses me off, it's intentionally vague GAH. I hope square is better.

Square's TOS reads that "Adult entertainment oriented products or services (in any medium, including Internet, telephone or printed material)" are unacceptable, but since its sales method is invoice-only you never disclose what you're selling (mine are all labeled simply Artist Services or similar)

ah cool, thank you for the info <3

..and that's one major reason I don't use Square xP

I'll start hoppin' on the Square Cash wagon m'self, soon enough!

They looked interesting upon first glance!

have you tried google wallet?

I have not! I think I recall them being US only, though. I'll have to double check!

I've not been following this very closely, since I gave up on Paypal years ago.

But if half of these allegations are true, Paypal is shooting itself in the foot something fierce. The increase of income they'll get from fees and fines won't equal the loss of trust and business.

because they own/are owned by ebay, they'll stay in business. it's a shitstorm :T

Actually, I think PayPal and eBay are splitting up in the very near future. Haven't done any more than scan the headlines on their web site, but Google it and take a look.

I heard they were becoming separate entities, but I thought their general ownership/leadership was staying the same. I will look into it with great interest! since I currently can't even use ebay thanks to paypal. <3

Well they arent by july, all these changes are due to splitting from Ebay

oooh, that makes sense. in that case, I hope they crash and die die die lmao

It could definitely end in some bad PR for them. It'll be interesting to see what kind of coverage they'll get once the new ToS and AUP are enforced.

Ah, so if we to search for an alternative, people like me in Asia will be fucked, as no other alternative accepts us since most of them are US-Only services or Possibly accepting Europe as well, I do commissions but in this case, I will have no method in gaining funds, Siiiigh~

It is really, really tough if you're outside of the US. I definitely sympathize. Hopefully a solid solution will present itself in the future, though. *fingers crossed*

Ah well, Hopefully... We still have the good ol' Western Union, now we need to convince people to move their asses to make the transfer if we ever end up using Western union XD

That's no good, my bank goes balistic whenever I use Western Union. They call me, email me and have a finger hovering over the freeze button whenever I've sent money via Western Union XD They see it as high risk and it is.

Try Patreon.. they claimed to have a good standing with PayPal without sharing details about what you sold, so PayPal would only see that it's your crowdfunded fairly-earned income

Then can only charge you for up to $2,500 worth of damages that they can prove they lost as a result of your violation. :\

So basically, they can't charge you money unless you screwed them out of money -- and even then, only up to the value that you screwed them out of, to a limit of $2,500.

There are WAY more unreasonable 'fine print click here to agree' shenanigans going on than this. x)

Maybe they wouldn't charge you for a simple violation, but as far as I can tell from actually reading the User Agreement and the AUP, they can charge you $2500. At minimum.

It specifically says that simply by accepting their User Agreement, you agree that they can charge you a minimum of $2500 for any restricted activity (which includes AUP violations, specifically), and that whether or not you have committed a violation is at the sole discretion of PayPal. And that they only have to believe that you have done so.

You can check yourself if you think I'm reading it wrong. If I am, I would appreciate it being pointed out and explained.

I have excerpts in a post further down if you want to read it. http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:45746628

everything you described in your second paragraph here is consistent with my personal experience, and my guess is it will stay that way in the future (since there's no reason to change a ToS such that makes it harder for them to screw people)

I would love to be proven wrong, and would happily admit to being wrong if someone could show me that I was. The way that I am understanding their User Agreement and AUP seems like a disaster waiting to happen for any furry artist doing porn work and accepting payment with PayPal, and that's not something I would wish on anyone.

The problem is, the people who have said that it's not as big a deal as it seems have yet to come back with any actual evidence that it isn't how it looks. I'd rather people be safe than sorry if all we have to go off of is claims that there isn't actually any risk.

100% agree.
The only valid reason I see for people continuing to use PayPal is that, as of yet, no clearly winning alternative has been shown when it comes to international transactions - Square is the next best thing out there, but it doesn't offer as many buyer protections as PayPal (kind of) does. Still, I wish more people would actually RESEARCH alternatives instead of just saying "meh, I'll use paypal until something happens to me personally".

Went through easily 20 options, none suitable for me as a poor Belgian artist with government limited surplus hobby income.. for someone doing this as their job there's plenty options, and for people in the US there's always Dwolla c:

The amount of terms and policies I wasted my eyes on was insane Dx

"10.3 Actions by PayPal - Restricted Activities. If PayPal, in its sole discretion, believes that you may have engaged in any Restricted Activities, we may take various actions to protect PayPal, other Users, other third parties, or you from Reversals, Chargebacks, Claims, fees, fines, penalties and any other liability."

"Believes" What a draconian mentality. That sort of behavior typically gets people sued. If you are trying to play Cop PayPal, believing will get you in trouble.

Then again, it's so poorly worded, it can also mean PayPal is LIABLE to protect everyone, included those involved in restricted activities. In other words, if you cause trouble, the solution is nothing XD

Yeah, the wording is definitely really sketchy. I'm definitely not educated in legalese, but acting on a belief instead of something tangible like proof, well... seems like a bad idea.

This basically states my reasons for being careful ..if you can afford an attorney then by all means defend yourself from such mis"belief", but for a regular joe that's just as expensive as paying the damn fee

Any paying website thing i can link to my email that doesnt suck as much dick as paypal?

Paypal is dead.

Long live Google Wallet!

Afraid I don't have any recommendations at the moment.

Bit coin is really expensive though, that is my only concern

1 Bitcoin equals
237.40 US Dollar

Bitcoin is divisible up to 16 decimals. So you don't have to send 1 bitcoin, you can send 0.00001 bitcoin. Which is like, a penny.

interesting

What Janglur said. You don't have to buy or use a whole BitCoin. You can break it into fractions of a BitCoin. The hardest part of using BitCoins is actually finding a reliable way to buy the damn things.

ah.

You can buy as little or as much as you'd like~! I bought the equivalent of $5 worth of bitcoins to try it out last year =)!

Fascinating.

I'm really not worried at all. This is only a problem for scam-artists who demand money be sent as a gift; either because they want to avoid the Paypal fees, or they have no intention of ever delivering the artwork for which they've been commissioned. If some idiot sends payment with a note like 'for furry porn of my OC deep-throating a giant horse cock' it's as simple as don't accept payment, and then block the user on FA. If they're that much of a moron, they're not worth doing business with.

If you feel confident in continuing to use their service, then by all means do! I'm certainly in no position to tell people what to do; rather felt it was just something that was worth mentioning should any others feel it's a cause for concern and weren't aware of it yet.

IMPORTANT!!! Please don't be duped. 10.3h is NOTHING like what you probably copied off the fear-monger.

http://drillbot.co.vu/post/11903260.....-paypal-update

Read that, and go to the ACTUAL paypal policies. Breaches of AUP is under 10.3 "G" and it only refers specifically to activities against the law and stuff.

As far as I can tell, this is wrong. I will provide excerpts:

Actions by Paypal for being caught performing restricted activities

10.3 Actions by PayPal - Restricted Activities. If PayPal, in its sole discretion, believes that you may have engaged in any Restricted Activities, we may take various actions to protect PayPal, other Users, other third parties, or you from Reversals, Chargebacks, Claims, fees, fines, penalties and any other liability. The actions we may take include but are not limited to the following:

a. We may close, suspend, or limit your access to your Account or the PayPal Services (such as limiting access to any of your Payment Methods, and/or your ability to send money, make withdrawals, or remove financial Information). Use the Report Form link to request information in connection with an account limitation, hold or reserve – to access the Report Form, go to https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/h.....=neg_infolimit
b. We may contact Users who have purchased goods or services from you, contact your bank or credit card issuer, and/or warn other Users, law enforcement, or impacted third parties of your actions;
c. We may update inaccurate Information you provided us;
d. We may refuse to provide the PayPal Services to you in the future;
e. We may hold your Balance for up to 180 Days if reasonably needed to protect against the risk of liability or if you have violated our Acceptable Use Policy;
f. We may take legal action against you; and
g. If you violate the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy, then in addition to the above actions you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPal's damages caused by your violation of the Acceptable Use Policy. You acknowledge and agree that $2,500.00 USD per violation of the Acceptable Use Policy is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPal's actual damages considering all currently existing circumstances, including the relationship of the sum to the range of harm to PayPal that reasonably could be anticipated because, due to the nature of the violations of the Acceptable Use Policy, actual damages would be impractical or extremely difficult to calculate. PayPal may deduct such damages directly from any existing Balance in the offending Account or any other Account you control.
h. PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to the PayPal Services for any reason and at any time upon notice to you and payment to you of any unrestricted funds held in your Balance.

What is a "Restricted Activity?"

"Restricted Activities" means those activities described in Section 9 (Restricted Activities) of this Agreement.

Okay, let's check Section 9

9. Restricted Activities.

9.1 Restricted Activities. In connection with your use of our website, your Account, the PayPal Services, or in the course of your interactions with PayPal, other Users, or third parties, you will not:

a. Breach this Agreement, the Commercial Entity Agreement, the Acceptable Use Policy or any other agreement or policy that you have agreed to with PayPal;
b. Violate any law, statute, ordinance, or regulation (for example, those governing financial services, consumer protections, unfair competition, anti-discrimination or false advertising);
c. Infringe PayPal's or any third party's copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or other intellectual property rights, or rights of publicity or privacy;
d. Sell counterfeit goods;
e. Act in a manner that is defamatory, trade libelous, threatening or harassing;
f. Provide false, inaccurate or misleading information;
g. Send or receive what we reasonably believe to be potentially fraudulent funds;
h. Refuse to cooperate in an investigation or provide confirmation of your identity or any Information you provide to us;
i. Attempt to double dip during the course of a dispute by receiving or attempting to receive funds from both PayPal and the Seller, bank or credit card issuer for the same transaction;
j. Control an Account that is linked to another Account that has engaged in any of these Restricted Activities;
k. Conduct your business or use the PayPal Services in a manner that results in or may result in complaints, Disputes, Claims, Reversals, Chargebacks, fees, fines, penalties or other liability to PayPal, other Users, third parties or you;
l. Have a credit score from a credit reporting agency that indicates a high level of risk associated with your use of the PayPal Services;
m. Use your Account or the PayPal Services in a manner that PayPal, Visa, MasterCard, American Express, Discover or any other electronic funds transfer network reasonably believes to be an abuse of the card system or a violation of card association or network rules;
n. Allow your Account to have a negative Balance;
o. Provide yourself a cash advance from your credit card (or help others to do so);
p. Access the PayPal Services from a country that is not included on PayPal's permitted countries list;
q. Take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure; facilitate any viruses, Trojan horses, worms or other computer programming routines that may damage, detrimentally interfere with, surreptitiously intercept or expropriate any system, data or Information; use an anonymizing proxy; use any robot, spider, other automatic device, or manual process to monitor or copy our website without our prior written permission; or use any device, software or routine to bypass our robot exclusion headers, or interfere or attempt to interfere with our website or the PayPal Services;
r. Take any action that may cause us to lose any of the services from our Internet service providers, payment processors, or other suppliers;
s. Use the PayPal Services to test credit card behaviors;
t. Circumvent any PayPal policy or determinations about your Account such as temporary or indefinite suspensions or other Account holds, limitations or restrictions, including, but not limited to, engaging in the following actions: attempting to create new or additional PayPal Account(s) when an Account has a negative balance or has been restricted, suspended or otherwise limited; creating new or additional PayPal Accounts using information that is not your own (e.g. name, address, email address, etc.); or using someone else’s PayPal Account;
u. Harass our employees, agents, or other users.

What's a violation of the AUP?

Prohibited Activities

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

1. violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.

2. relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, © items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods (e) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.

3. relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other "get rich quick" schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, © are associated with purchases of annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems, off-shore banking or transactions to finance or refinance debts funded by a credit card, (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item, (e) are by payment processors to collect payments on behalf of merchants, (f), are associated with the sale of traveler's checks or money orders, (h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses, or (i) involve certain credit repair, debt settlement services, credit transactions or insurance activities.

4. involve the sales of products or services identified by government agencies to have a high likelihood of being fraudulent.

5. violate applicable laws or industry regulations regarding the sale of (a) tobacco products, or (b) prescription drugs and devices.

6. involve gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize, including, but not limited to casino games, sports betting, horse or greyhound racing, lottery tickets, other ventures that facilitate gambling, games of skill (whether or not it is legally defined as a lottery) and sweepstakes unless the operator has obtained prior approval from PayPal and the operator and customers are located exclusively in jurisdictions where such activities are permitted by law.

IANAL, but I agree with your reading of this. Basically, "certain sexually oriented materials or services" are covered under AUP violations, which are covered by the clause that talks about fines.

Is there even a real definition of "certain sexually oriented materials or services" somewhere? :/

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6741659/

Wow, "certain sexually oriented materials or services"
That loose of a definition could be used to hurt a lot of people if they wanted. It could be interpreted to mean a whole slue of things.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6741659/

Sef, I'm so sorry that this is such a difficult thing. I wish some furs with connections could start something that would work for you and your fellow artists.

It'd definitely be cool, but I imagine there's a lot of red tape with this stuff. I feel like I wasted an entire month when I was doing my own research in to trying to find a payment alternative, and I'm still not sure I have a solution yet XD.

I wasted much of my "should work on this commission" time too, but my findings were more positive ^-^; ..just not applicable to me unless I earn enough to cover account fees

The problem with a Furry-based for-adult network system similar to PayPal would be that it's hard to trust like PayPay once was.. they didn't ask many questions either, but their service was a potential abuse/theft hazard, and now their url hard-links to PayPal. My main concern with Furry homebrew financial institutions is the potential for abuse; just think about how much "can't unsee" porn comes by your screen and imagine how many international laws selling that sorta stuff could break cx

Well I was thinking something like a fur who wasn't publically furry, but would make a system that allowed adult transactions.
It would be difficult to work out, though. Some countries really wouldn't like it.

No, I meant it wold be hard to trust as it's a new service.. you'd need really good PR to make that work and with all the competition it's not going to be an easy start-up :\ ..the fact that you're fur, either private or public, has little impact on the unfair nature of the industry itself

Glad I closed out my account with them. Think not too long ago they also made a change that made it sound like you lost all ownership of posted materials.

That one was a misunderstanding actually. They get rights of the logos you upload for your business accounts and stuff like that, for them to use "to show that they have businesses using them as payment method", or something similar. Since Paypal CANT see or have any knowledge about the products that as artist you sell, it's impossible that they cant own it in any way.

Someone made an interesting point about the ownership/IP claim that went around previously; they pointed out that it almost sounded like paypal might be starting up its own storefront availability, which might better explain the wording they'd used. Purely speculation though!

Well, the "gift" part was actually already know, I mean, receiving money as a gift in exchange of services to not to lost the fees bit is a form of fraud. Anyway I as some have said, don't yell "that gay commission of two individuals rubbing cocks" in the description box and you should be fine xD

I think for the most part people already knew that sending payments as "gifts" instead of "services" was frowned upon and were fine with taking the risk that might be involved with that. With more prominent repercussions about to be in place though, it felt necessary to at least mention them in case anyone hadn't taken the time to read the changes and could make an informed decision instead of an ignorant one.

People really should start reading the AUP/ToS of the stuff they use, at least the ones that really can get them in troubles like these that involve "real"money.
But anyway you're right, they should at least mention them before, it's not like 2500$ is a small quantity for a fine!

Hokay, that's the official end of PayPal for me. They've struck me as scumbags from the get go, but this is a whole new level of injurious exploitation.

I certainly agree. So many small companies and individuals use their services that a fee like that is potentially crippling. It feels incredibly disrespectful and unforgiving to your userbase to apply a fee of that magnitude. I probably wouldn't think as badly of them if they at least implemented a "three strikes you're out" type of mentality with it, but there's zero predictability with how they have it now.

It gets worse. I checked their TOS, and while some of their 'restricted activities' are a bit on the ambiguous side there was one that grabbed my attention: having a poor credit rating qualifies as a violation of PayPal's AUP. What in the actual fuck.

So what other websites can we use?

Paypal is dead.

Long live Google Wallet!

not if your outside of the us.

This is a very difficult question to answer! I think some services to possibly pay attention to that might have capabilities on an international level would be Square Payments, and Bitcoins. Alternatively you might be able to do the Patreon thing.

I really hate to do a patreon because it seems unfair. But then again I dont have a lot of watchers anyway..

As an artist, these are exactly what my concerns have been regarding Paypal ever since that "Gift vs. Service" thing came to light in the furry community. I just don't know what else to use? :(

Paypal is dead.

Long live Google Wallet!

It's definitely a tough question! I'm mostly looking at those with international capabilities and aren't US only... so from that view point I think the options are Square Payments (they don't allow adult content, so you'd be similarly going under the radar as people are doing with paypal now), bitcoins (which doesn't quite seem to have an easy exchange process as of yet? I still need to look in to it) or Patreon.

Paypal is dead.

Long live Google Wallet!

IA! IA! GOOGLE WALLET FTHAGN!

Just a doubt, does Google Wallet have any kind of annual limit like Paypal does in some countries?
I don't know if this applies to US or other places, but for example in Spain you can't earn more than 2.500€/year without having to declare it to the State (and therefore having to become autonomous).

I don't know about other countries, but in the US they do automatically report after I believe it is $20,000 AND 200 separate transactions (Square, same deal) but that's based on a federal regulation, and any legitimate transaction service will do the same.

Unfortunately not. Maybe US users will diminish, but until there is actually a viable option for other countries, Paypal will likely remain. ^^;

Google Wallet is restricted to Google-platform development (at least in my country, although they replied on an international base so that could be anywhere) :\

I didn't think Google Wallet was international as of yet, but it's certainly one to keep an eye on!

Just use invoices.

I've used invoices in the past, but even then I've had instances where paypal would investigate especially if someone wanted to flag the transaction and file a dispute. It certainly helped lower the risk, but not negate it.

0o'='o0 so glade i do not have paypal account

You're safe!

Sigh...I regret not commissioning you sorry...

Nothing to be sorry about! I'd like to think there'll be a solution in the future to safely accept payments for adult works, but it's just not in place yet.

Yeah liked to still not certain....

That's incredibly fucked up. I reread all the appropriate sections, and yeah, you've basically signed a date-less check to Paypal for $2,500 or more by using their services after July 2nd. There is literally nothing in there that a lawyer could use to get you out of it. Why people aren't flipping the fuck out about this across the world, I don't know..

Also, people usually cite section (i) below, but section (g) is just as bad..

....(f) the promotion of hate, violence, racial intolerance or the financial exploitation of a crime, (g) items that are considered obscene, (h) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (i) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories...

I would love to find an alternative that wasn't a total bitch for everyone to switch over to... Though honestly, if this change goes through, hopefully people won't need much motivation. Now if the fandom could just move as one onto a different merchant for fandom-transaction purposes.. I saw Hanazawa had posted a link in the comments for alternatives, so I'm gonna check that out.. Thanks for posting this journal.

I'm glad the journal was informative! That was the intent so people could make their own decision about continuing (or not) to use Paypal.

I'll still be using it for now. I don't exactly have such a fanbase that just by my switching alone, I can motivate people to sign up. And I have ToS provisions to avoid actually breaking their ToS and AuP, but I'd definitely like to have alternative methods up eventually. It's a shame Google Wallet isn't international yet..

"you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPal's damages caused by your violation"

Dear user, you paid for a drawing. But because it had a dragon dick in it, you have to pay us two grand because it DAMAGED us somehow

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Dragon dicks can be extremely damaging! They're practically weapons of mass destruction!

*removes "M" for classic lame joke*

Wow, I wasn't even aware of this! Seeing as Paypal considers anything regarding Furaffinity as adult entertainment I might have to consider other sources as well. This is very unsettling news indeed.

I'm pretty scared of the bitcoin option since I've never used it. How would we go about commissioning you with them if you choose to accept them? I don't know anything about them.

Personally i never saw paypal as "the" alternative payment solution. Since the last update everyone asks for the "friends and family" payment, which means the paypal transaction fee is my threat now. Other than that, the paypal ToS bug me since paypal decided to turn into some kind of "bank", not a simple service anymore. I guess its a good choice to find some better alternative...

Nice.

Apparently they don't get enough money already from randomly sacking any account that gets more than £50 in it.

http://i.imgur.com/vAbDXSK.png

This doesnt seem to effect the uk for some reason

I think it's bo big deal. Just ask people to Note you when they pay and tell them not to leave any additional comment on the transaction. Problem solved :P

That doesn't really solve the problem. You might never get caught, sure. Some people don't. Some people do, though, and then suddenly all of this becomes exceedingly relevant.

Also, asking people not to leave a note via PayPal doesn't stop some from doing it anyway, and all it takes is one really stupid note to get PayPal breathing down your neck.

Would paypal even check if we use the '' send money to familly or friends'' feature? Because that's what I always do.. if I wanna send money to someone I know it's just legit.. I can use this feature to pay instead of the ''pay for a service or item'' feature.

It seems like they keep track of how many family or friends payments they receive, so you are taking a risk by using those to buy items or services. If you are really using that option to send money to family or friends, or to reimburse someone gas money or something like that, I wouldn`t worry.

I've done some elaborate digging through PayPal replacements myself and found two that were non-credit-card, online, wire-to-bank services. The best seemed to be Dwolla, their fees are tiny and only start counting at $10.01+ and they accept payments from other services like PayPal with few questions ..however, this is a US-only service. The other sadly also didn't provide to my country, but their fees were higher so I forgot about them quickly after finding Dwolla.

I read all of the ToS of every service I could possibly find (15 major and a whole bunch of minor), including direct-to-bank (Stripe, which is the only consumer one) and credit-card based, the latter most often being no-questions-asked but fairly high fees. Dwolla and whatever that other one was are the only two who have no regulation against porn. Most adult-industry-trusted high-fee services may not be too picky about certain porn, but not as freely as these. Dwolla states in their terms that you can't make positive transactions (receive money) for "escort services", which doesn't contain anything related to drawn or video sex, even bestiality which is often part of Furry art. However, their seat of law may be in a state that is a little fussy about such materials and "illegal content" may still contain bestiality in the broadest sense.

There are plenty services who are claimed to be adult-friendly by all sorts of adult industry folks, including former AlertPay whose legal print is now very much opposed since being purchased by their current parent company. Most of the actual no-questions/no-card services are only viable if you earn excessively ..like one of the highest praised ones having a "sleeper fee" for inactive accounts of almost $50 per month on top of their annual fee.

Naturally none of these services staid in my memory for all that long as I have other things to worry about.


I've contacted PayPal about this whole thing, probably orange-flagging my account for scrutiny in the process, and asked them about selling porn, including bestiality and "fantasy creatures". They replied in kind that these materials (even as services, like drawing them) could not be sold through their service at all and that they were glad I asked about it as well as refusing to circumvent their terms.

I've also been in contact with the staff of Patreon and they claimed (read: "guessed") that you can use their services to sell mature work, providing this stays within legal boundaries and your account is properly flagged NSFW and possibly hidden, despite PayPal's policies with whom they've been in close contact for over two years, and also that it's not considered circumventing but an honest earning of income. I'm a little wary, but at least having those logs is useful if there ever were a case where I can't earn a buck with my porn because of account freezing.

As a result, I use PayPal invoicing for my regular works, non-age-restricted (as they required) up to 16+ (PG17), non-sexual, non-obscene, while considering Patreon would be for my adult art, which I still have to try. I don't know how to sell my porn free of all these extra fees without living in the US or getting a credit-card based service, but I guess that's just a matter of time before something pops up.

Paypal has been evil and had a horrible dystopian ToS since day one.

what other payment sites are there besides paypal?

Paypal has never actually given a true statement saying that artwork that is pornographic is against their TOS.

A friend of mine actually contacted Paypal regarding this(over the phone), and they said "That's a grey area, and we'll get back to you on that." They never got back to her on that.

The way I see it, their rule "(i) certain sexually oriented materials or services" pertains to real pornographic materials. Fictional characters or otherwise is, again, a grey area.

They replied to my e-mail inquiry and clearly said that it's absolutely forbidden.

Same with Slither. Where you head, Cyr will follow.

Someone can tell me what is going on? I not understand so much. , Please, If someone can explain me this, thank you very much.

Ouch, that fine is very steep and I totally agree it's not worth using Paypal any more. It's a shame because it's one of the only ways to avoid overseas debit card charges.

Has anyone used Payza? It sounds good and they take international. Not sure about their policies tho....

Payza, formerly AlertPay, is now under no-smut ruling

Well, unless I skipped over something, so far in their Legal agreement it just says it can't be "Pre-adult content, such as pictures, videos, etc., of individuals under the age of 18"

Also this:

"Individuals whose businesses fall under the following "Regulated" industries ARE permitted to use our services. However, accounts and industries that fall under the "Regulated" category must be verified and pay fees associated with their industry. Please note, some industries may be subject to higher fees than regular and other "Regulated" industries. The fees are applied at the discretion of Payza. Please contact Customer Support for more information."

And "Adult Content" being one of the things on the list that is considered "Regulated" industry with them.

I haven't read their terms in well over a week and been through plenty others since, so I can't recall much of it, but I know I skipped the service for some reason and either porn or bestiality restrictions must've been part of that decision, or fees ..not sure there :\

Didn't see anything on bestiality restrictions either. They just seem to care if it's porn of individuals under the age of 18.

So you probably just skipped it for the fees. The regular fees seem okay, but if they're going to charge you extra for you making your business account under "adult content", then I don't know how much more they're going to want to charge you. @.@ I'll try and dig around for the answer to that.

^-^ thanks! I could too but laziness and the pressure of "you're supposed to work on commissions" are rather convincing not to spend hours wading through the legal writing cx

Yes you did, you just don't realize it :D

That would be covered under the " obscene " category. Where that get dangerous is obscenity is defined differently depending on where you live.

In at least one State in the US, it is illegal to own or offer for sale " Obscene Devices " within certain counties. The definition of which is: "a device including a dildo or artificial vagina, designed or marketed as useful primarily for the stimulation of human genital organs."

Based on the definition of "Obscene" in the aforementioned State, just about everything under the Sun that isn't standard sex between two consenting adults can be considered a violation. A wall of text version for you:

"Obscene" means material or a performance that:

the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that taken as a whole appeals to the prurient interest in sex depicts or describes:

patently offensive representations or descriptions of ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated, including sexual intercourse, sodomy, and sexual bestiality; or

patently offensive representations or descriptions of masturbation, excretory functions, sadism, masochism, lewd exhibition of the genitals, the male or female genitals in a state of sexual stimulation or arousal, covered male genitals in a discernibly turgid state or a device designed and marketed as useful primarily for stimulation of the human genital organs; and taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, and scientific value.

"Material" means anything tangible that is capable of being used or adapted to arouse interest, whether through the medium of reading, observation, sound, or in any other manner, but does not include an actual three dimensional obscene device.

"Performance" means a play, motion picture, dance, or other exhibition performed before an audience.

"Patently offensive" means so offensive on its face as to affront current community standards of decency.

"Promote" means to manufacture, issue, sell, give, provide, lend, mail, deliver,transfer, transmit, publish, distribute, circulate, disseminate, present, exhibit, or advertise, or to offer or agree to do the same.

"Wholesale promote" means to manufacture, issue, sell, provide, mail, deliver, transfer, transmit, publish, distribute, circulate, disseminate, or to offer or agree to do the same for purpose of resale.

"Obscene device" means a device including a dildo or artificial vagina, designed or marketed as useful primarily for the stimulation of human genital organs.

If any of the depictions or descriptions of sexual conduct described in this section are declared by a court of competent jurisdiction to be unlawfully included herein, this declaration shall not invalidate this section as to other patently offensive sexual conduct included herein

Considering it IS the 21st Century, laws of this nature just baffle me.

That definition is pretty much my understanding of "obscene" ..so if someone says "no obscenities" in their terms I'm kinda just proverbially screwed :\

Where in Payza's Legal agreement does it say "Obsene" isn't allowed? Cause I just reread everything that's not allowed and still not seeing it.

Like I said, it states that "adult Content" is allowed on their site, as long as you pay the added fees for it being "adult".

From PayPal's site under prohibited activities:

" violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation "
" items that are considered obscene "

( via https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/m.....ptableuse-full )

Like I said, depending on where you reside, mere possession of the material can be enough since the laws defining what is " obscene " are typically derived from what the moral majority believes it to be.

Just tread carefully.

Dude, I'm asking about Payza not Paypal. Payza is a completely different pay site.

Two Words: "Google Wallet"

Don't know.. You can still use PayPal... just do invoices? But what do I know? I am just a little dragon. :c

This is indeed really sad to know, and just a bad move on their side if they do that. But PayPal being the annoying company we all know, I am not really surprised though. I sell on Ebay a LOT as my primary source of income now, and I have many horrible story to tell now about them sadly (even had to go to their main headquarters once to solve some high troubles).

But anyway, I super love what you do and will super follow what ever payment method you will use in the future too. Keep up the good & delicious dragon stuff !

This is very good to know. Thanks for the heads up!

Well that's defiantly not cool.

Now I have to look up Bitcoin and squarecash and other possible payment methods. Stupid PayPal.

No, you don't... Nothing is gonna change for us... People are just panicing again, many users have already contacted Paypal and confirmed that selling erotic artwork is fine.

For real? Thank you so much.

To be on the safe side people should just use invoices. Because then it really isn't a problem.
I mean think about it. This would cost them tons of customers. Also, there are online stores that sell porn and sex toys that accept PayPal as payment.
It just doesn't make sense for them to be that prudish.

I've been looking for alternatives for months, so far the only good contenders are https://www.paxum.com and http://www.zombaio.com/ but they aren't ideal solutions. If you find anything, I'm sure a lot of use would be happy to jump ship.

So bottom line, it's still the gigantic crapshoot it has always been and they make 0 effort to actually clarify things in the actual AUP so that it remains a gigantic crapshoot.
Your erotic artwork is totes okays except when it isn't and to make things more "interesting" there is now that substantial fee which totes won't apply to you ever, fo reals, don't listen to what that silly AUP states, dawg.
Yeah probably no reason to be any less careful around paypal.

Yeah, that seems to be the situation.

Anna:

I don't know the American law

Is it even legal for them to charge SUCH tons of money, in addition to, for a MERE BELIEF you broke their own TOS and without a lawsuit?

technicly no... but in practice yes, because the legal fee's to try and deny them would be higher then paying it out. by using their system you are agreeing to their terms, and therefore you are subject to their fees that you have contractually agreed to, even if those terms were changed. It's a mire of legal backstabbing.

Anna:

How about the 'innocent until proven guilty' kind of rule? :/ How is it possible they may legally charge people for PP's staff b-e-l-i-e-f-s, and without suing the suspected user? The law needs a change to remove that gigantic loophole... Pity governments ususally don't give a damn.

I don't know how to get paid for commissions now... I may ban +18 contents from the acceptable commission subjects and stick to general audience only but if I can be robbed anyway just because PP can B-e-l-i-e-v-e in my potential breaking of their TOS and take more than I have then PP is not an option... I'm scared to use it after June...

I wonder how would they react if they lost 50% of users thanks to that nonsense... Pity people won't mass-leave like that.

I already knew all of this for a LONG time.

Thats why I never tell people to link any thing in any description about art or any thing, so nothing ever comes into question