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Let's Bitch About Patreon
10 years ago
I tried. I really, really tried.
I tried to avoid this point for as long as I could.
I have to make a Patreon.
I know, I know. Pelt me with rotten meat, get it out of the way but after I emerge from the pile of pestilent protein hear me out and then leave a comment. I'm going to need feedback on this because this is uncharted territory for me.
Patreon has REALLY took off in the last two years and I'd say about 90% of the Patreons I see confuse the hell out of me. Whether it's seeing people who make godawful content make a mint or being befuddled by the things people offer as "rewards" it's clear to me that I'm not exactly the target audience. This was only made more apparent after I did a sweep and checked to see if ANY of the comic artists I like have Patreons. Survey says? None of them. None of the artists whose work I follow closely have Patreon accounts. Maybe this is why I've held out so long, "None of the people I look up to have these dang things!" I say to no one in particular, "Why should I?!?!" Furthermore I checked on my anti-role models (people I occasionally look in on to see what I SHOULDN'T be doing) and all of them had Patreons; people were giving money to artists who rarely produced content and weren't that good or disciplined in the first place. The world was getting topsy turvy.
"Should I start drawing bad porn, make comics about boys kissing that DON'T turn into violent weird fests, wear a kigurumi like a jackass and rake in the money? Should I take the 'satirical' song 'Sell Out!' by Reel Big Fish seriously and... sell out?"
Luckily I have a gigantic poster I use at cons that literally says "Never sell out! Never surrender!" so sense was knocked back into me. I'm incapable of selling out. I've carried around my 'Fuck Communism' lighter for so long I'm allergic to the color red. So is there a way...is there a way to be a good artist, maintain my integrity, AND have a Patreon? Can I have it all???
I think I can. I want it all. My stupid gay baby body may be slowly shutting down but dammit I still want it all. So this is where you come in: what would YOU want out of a Bone-Fucking-Itis Anti-Patreon Festival of Madness? I've come up with some things I definitely DON'T want to do:
-Locking content behind paywalls. I'm not going to do some thing where certain scenes or illustrations are for patrons only, we're running this baby like PBS, the sexiest of networks. As an aside: people who do comics where adult scenes are behind paywalls are awful storytellers.
-Speaking of tacky: I'm not going to put that big dump "P" logo on the bottom of my pages, it's a disgrace to layouts. People who read comics want to see good layouts and storytelling, not every scene getting interrupted by a giant corporate logo and a list of names. Credits go in the back of the book. Get a clue.
-I don't know if this is a Patreon or a Tumblr thing because I've largely opted out of internet society and am gradually going mad but I hate character asks. You know what would make "Preacher" better? If I could stop the narrative flow every couple of minutes to ask the characters about their genitals and get a fourth wall breaking reply! Has life gotten so sad that we have to ask fictional people about their love life because ours are non-existent or terrible? I've never sent a character an "ask" but I have caught a shark and eaten it. Fuck you.
Things I'm iffy about:
-Sending out page layouts, pencils, inks, etc...before the actual comic page lands. This is mainly me being a stickler about narrative and presentation but I wouldn't mind sending patrons those things once the page is up, I don't really post my pencils and inks anywhere so would this be considered a paywall? The comic itself would remain absolutely free and I don't care if anyone shared the files anyway. I like to assume people who like my stuff and want to support me will, in fact, do so.
Things I would LOVE to do:
-Originals auctions. I have fuck tons of originals lying around and not enough cons to sell them at. I think it'd be cool to raffle off an inked or penciled page, an illustration, and...
-Livestreamed inked sketches. I wouldn't want to do penciled ones because that's lame. Inks are the choice of kings and I'd love to pop on my brand new webcam once a month, chat it up, and ink some anthropomorphic masterpieces.
This all just me free-balling it. I want to hear from YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU NEED TO COMMENT
What would you hate to see in my Patreon? Anything I don't seem clear on? What would be fucking AWESOME in my Patreon? What would make it worth your hard earned cash?
Start un-subscribing to losers and hoarding gold because this thing is going live by the end of the month and anyone who doesn't support it is going to regret it till they die.
-Bone
I tried to avoid this point for as long as I could.
I have to make a Patreon.
I know, I know. Pelt me with rotten meat, get it out of the way but after I emerge from the pile of pestilent protein hear me out and then leave a comment. I'm going to need feedback on this because this is uncharted territory for me.
Patreon has REALLY took off in the last two years and I'd say about 90% of the Patreons I see confuse the hell out of me. Whether it's seeing people who make godawful content make a mint or being befuddled by the things people offer as "rewards" it's clear to me that I'm not exactly the target audience. This was only made more apparent after I did a sweep and checked to see if ANY of the comic artists I like have Patreons. Survey says? None of them. None of the artists whose work I follow closely have Patreon accounts. Maybe this is why I've held out so long, "None of the people I look up to have these dang things!" I say to no one in particular, "Why should I?!?!" Furthermore I checked on my anti-role models (people I occasionally look in on to see what I SHOULDN'T be doing) and all of them had Patreons; people were giving money to artists who rarely produced content and weren't that good or disciplined in the first place. The world was getting topsy turvy.
"Should I start drawing bad porn, make comics about boys kissing that DON'T turn into violent weird fests, wear a kigurumi like a jackass and rake in the money? Should I take the 'satirical' song 'Sell Out!' by Reel Big Fish seriously and... sell out?"
Luckily I have a gigantic poster I use at cons that literally says "Never sell out! Never surrender!" so sense was knocked back into me. I'm incapable of selling out. I've carried around my 'Fuck Communism' lighter for so long I'm allergic to the color red. So is there a way...is there a way to be a good artist, maintain my integrity, AND have a Patreon? Can I have it all???
I think I can. I want it all. My stupid gay baby body may be slowly shutting down but dammit I still want it all. So this is where you come in: what would YOU want out of a Bone-Fucking-Itis Anti-Patreon Festival of Madness? I've come up with some things I definitely DON'T want to do:
-Locking content behind paywalls. I'm not going to do some thing where certain scenes or illustrations are for patrons only, we're running this baby like PBS, the sexiest of networks. As an aside: people who do comics where adult scenes are behind paywalls are awful storytellers.
-Speaking of tacky: I'm not going to put that big dump "P" logo on the bottom of my pages, it's a disgrace to layouts. People who read comics want to see good layouts and storytelling, not every scene getting interrupted by a giant corporate logo and a list of names. Credits go in the back of the book. Get a clue.
-I don't know if this is a Patreon or a Tumblr thing because I've largely opted out of internet society and am gradually going mad but I hate character asks. You know what would make "Preacher" better? If I could stop the narrative flow every couple of minutes to ask the characters about their genitals and get a fourth wall breaking reply! Has life gotten so sad that we have to ask fictional people about their love life because ours are non-existent or terrible? I've never sent a character an "ask" but I have caught a shark and eaten it. Fuck you.
Things I'm iffy about:
-Sending out page layouts, pencils, inks, etc...before the actual comic page lands. This is mainly me being a stickler about narrative and presentation but I wouldn't mind sending patrons those things once the page is up, I don't really post my pencils and inks anywhere so would this be considered a paywall? The comic itself would remain absolutely free and I don't care if anyone shared the files anyway. I like to assume people who like my stuff and want to support me will, in fact, do so.
Things I would LOVE to do:
-Originals auctions. I have fuck tons of originals lying around and not enough cons to sell them at. I think it'd be cool to raffle off an inked or penciled page, an illustration, and...
-Livestreamed inked sketches. I wouldn't want to do penciled ones because that's lame. Inks are the choice of kings and I'd love to pop on my brand new webcam once a month, chat it up, and ink some anthropomorphic masterpieces.
This all just me free-balling it. I want to hear from YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU NEED TO COMMENT
What would you hate to see in my Patreon? Anything I don't seem clear on? What would be fucking AWESOME in my Patreon? What would make it worth your hard earned cash?
Start un-subscribing to losers and hoarding gold because this thing is going live by the end of the month and anyone who doesn't support it is going to regret it till they die.
-Bone
Now, that's mostly to get around paywalls, so maybe you'd not see much of that?
Does Patreon bring you a new audience? If not, would there be a way to get more scratch out of FA?
I just started a Patreon and it's been pretty successful so far. I think the reason a lot of the artists you look up to don't have them is because they're typically hard working artists firmly entrenched in the comics industry? (I'm taking Sean Gordon Murphy as the example here, same with most manga artists.) So they know where their moolah's coming from. As a freelancer, who does not have an exclusive contract with any one company, it's important to ~*~~*~DIVERSIFY YOUR INCOME SOURCES~*~~*~ which is something I do, and something I very much encourage you to do as well! It's also very handy for webcomic artists, who do not have a big company backing them in the professional print/marketing/sales department, and must be their own printers/marketers/salesperson +accountant.
For Patreon, for me at least, it's been super helpful to think of this as more of a "if my comics were actually in print and people had to go to the store and buy them, this $3 a month isn't actually that unreasonable, as it is the typical cost of a monthly floppy issue." Now, it's also important that people don't HAVE to do this with Patreon, and that you're keeping all of your major content free for the public. And finally, what's most important is that A LOT OF YOUR FANS JUST WANT TO SUPPORT YOU. Sure you've got jackholes who are like "wuhhh i'm entitled and needy and mean on the internet and i hate that you're even thinking about making money off of it" but those people ARE LOSERS??? AND HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER MADE ANYTHING! AND NEVER WILL!! So don't pay them any mind. Their sad whiny voices of dissent don't matter.
Furthermore, to give another way to think about it: All those people who love your art and love to commission you, they can't be at every single convention! Think of their small contributions adding up over the months as the funds from those commissions they wanted to ask of you, but logistically couldn't. Think of them as tips! You're a great artist, I'm sure you get tipped a lot!
CONFESSION TIME: I'm writing this huge essay because I just finished studying for a midterm and want to think about anything other than "MFA Art History: Landscapes in Photography." But I really do see Patreon as an instrumental tool in keeping freelance artists funded and producing more of their work for their fans to enjoy. Don't let some shitty bozo furbies ruin it's core benefits and functions for you!
Confession time: I made this big angry journal because I keep seeing these "P" logos everywhere and I want to show people how to do it right!
Also, some possible rewards to think of:
>Pages of quick sketches that have to do with the comic or specific characters? Maybe you don't like doing character asks, but you could put out some interesting tidbits about everybody that are probably too obscure to make it into the actual comic. People like that kind of stuff.
>Concept work, research, or thoughts on your pages and where you're going with the story. Kind of like these journals, but specifically about your comics, and what your goals and ideas were with specific scenes and pages, and why you think drawing sharks in the backgrounds of some panels was a hella rad stylistic choice.
>This is a me thing, but maybe you could figure something out like it: I have a specific minicomic that takes place between two Sakana chapters that I only sell online or at conventions, but I have a tier on my Patreon for a digital download if they pledge for at least one month. I don't think it's a bad thing that people pledge to that tier for only one month and then lower it, or even delete their pledge afterwards, what's important is that I have the money now, as if I'd sold it normally. Your whole comic could remain free, but you could have periodic "aside" episodes that aren't really integral to the plot, just silly character stuff, that people could access on your Patreon.
>Pencils and Inks, you'd be AMAZED how many people just like pencils and inks.
>Monthly votes on like...IDK, what type of furby should I draw doing this hilarious thing? This month it's dolphin month, get ready for some weird-ass extra bonus dolphin art because you crazy kids are paying me and I have to. Dragon month. Standard Poodle month. Daddy Longlegs month. SERGAL MONTH???
But seriously, daddy longlegs month.
Make a million dollars on daddy longlegs month.
I have TONS of character notes and concept art lying around too, I'd love that as opposed to asks.
Hell, I've GOT a 22 page comic penciled that I've never released AND that thing Karen's working on!
SO MANY IDEAS
Patreon is fine! Starving children in Africa? Let's bitch about Patreon! Its like no one else has anything better to do. I support Kris Patrick on Patreon but to be honest, it makes sense to support art THROUGH Patreon because if they don't update anything that month, you owe nothing!
And that is the thing with Patreon: you need to choose a model for which intervals you get paid at. Per comic page? Per issue? Per insert time period where you have produced some art? It all makes a difference.
And yes, while people pledge to pay you a certain amount per interval, they can both set a limit to how much overall they will give per month and can back out at any time.
One thing I see a lot of the writers I follow who have Patreons do is take Patreon only requests. Not literally commission level requests, but suggest a theme and the artist gets to choose. I don't know how it's handled on the Patreon side of things, but push comes to shove we could always ask someone who does it. Plus, you have said that commissions are better if you aren't given super specific details, so a Patreon request would also work better under a simple sentence restraint. You could even set limits or themes on the types of requests you're accepting, either overall or per month. Even set the expectations of request will be ink only, since it is what you're known for.
As for what you could lock behind the Patreon in general... it really would be the inks the comic, but the trick is you don't HAVE to release them when the inks are done. If you are afraid of spoiling things you can release the inks to Patreon at the same time as the comic is posted. Or at least as close to it as your fingers can navigate the web.
...no opinion on auctions of originals. I just don't personally have physical space in my life for nondigital art.
And... yeah, that is about all I think I can contribute. I hope it works out; you do deserve to get paid for what you do.
I like the request idea too, since I hate excessively detailed (read: worthless) descriptions.
I'd release pencils and inks on the same day as the comic, I think that would be ideal for narrative.
No space for originals? Something must be done!!
Instead I've seen people abusing it as paywalls and in ways they end up posting LESS content than they did before. At least in public.
I actually considered the idea of making one by the time I make a webcomic, but seeing its current... "Notoriety", now I'm having second thoughts...
Then again, crowd sourcing has that same kind of problem: A great idea on paper, with some notable successes, but Sturgeon's Law at full swing, with people trying to use it for scamming or incredibly crappy ideas for the sake of easy money.
That being said, to use one shouldn't be a form of selling out, despite of how others use it. Streaming inks sounds like a good idea, specially for mid tier. And holding auctions ain't bad either.
Do not austrocize your fanbase.
I promise.
That said, it can't hurt to create one. I've seen people set theirs up so that it's basically a donation page. They don't restrict content, or bog themselves down with trying to dole out rewards. It's merely a "Like what I'm creating? Please consider donating to help keep this thing going." sort of affair.
I currently don't support any artists there myself but you're one of the few that I would.
The biggest failures I see on Patreon are usually people who treat it as nothing more than a tip jar, getting paid even if they post nothing, which a shockingly high number of artists seem to do. And then they wonder why people stop paying them!
I understand your health issues may limit your options. Usually I look for campaigns that provide some kind of personalized or at least tangible perk. Offering only high-res files for generous patronage seems odd to me; offering a sketch every month to anyone who pledges, e.g., $20 or more makes a lot more sense. Think of these as a commission subscription. Without Patreon, it is extraordinarily rare for someone to come back every month to ask for another commission, but if they've already committed with a monthly pledge, that's exactly what you've got locked in; people will seldom withdraw their support unless necessary.
I don't think it's complicated, really! People pay you; you give the world a comic and your most generous supporters get art. If you feel that's too elitist, maybe do a raffle for lower levels so everyone has a chance to get something.
Be very careful about rewards because it's possible to scam the system. People will pledge, get the rewards, and then cancel before they're charged. Try to arrange your rewards so they're only delivered after payment is collected.
You'll do great. :)
Seriously though, I've never really seen anything fundamentally wrong with Patreon. I don't really like it when artists lock their stuff behind a paywall because that's art that I can't see unless I pay them, not to own it or have a piece done but just to be able to view the art, and I can't financially support every artist that I follow -even a small donation would run into hundreds of dollars total and I just don't have that kind of cash. I especially don't like it when artists make a Patreon and then either don't do anything more with it than they would be otherwise, or just don't do anything with it at all. I'm sure it's nice for them to have a place where they can just get money because people like them, but if I'm going to contribute money regularly (and that's the important part, that it's periodic) then I do expect to see SOMETHING out of it.
As for what that something might be, I think you're on the right track. I know your work ethic, motivation and general pride is way too good to do anything shitty with your Patreon like produce less content just because. From the sound of it there are people out there who would be interested to see pencils and layouts or concept art of comic pages even if the comic was being posted on FA at the same time, so I think that's a good idea. Auctions would probably work as well, especially if you're not already doing them here. Even if you were, just seems like a way to move more art to me. I never personally understood the appeal of livestreams, either as the one streaming or the one watching, but it seems like lots of people do and if you think you'd like it too then you can't go wrong. Hell, I'd probably participate just to talk/interrogate/make bad jokes at you in the chat text box while you work, if you were to allow such.
The idea of doing a mini-comic that's only available to Patreon subscribers (Patrons? Whatever, IDGAF) from Mad is a neat one. If you were to handle it like he says then I don't think anyone could fault you, since it's more of a one-time payment but people could pay more if they wanted to. Lots of artists sell comics, and you're not even selling the main event, as you've stated. So that seems workable to me. Voting for a theme of the month or whatever would be cool too. As long as people feel like they're involved and they're not just dumping cash into your pocket -the interaction is the key selling point to me, not necessarily the content, even if it's just something dumb like "Do I do lions, tigers or bears this month, guys?"
I also really like Soba's idea of exclusive sketches/raffles, but really that's just because I'm greedy and I like free art. Though I know if I could get consistent requests in (even as infrequently as once a month) just on the level of a basic sketch or ink it would go a long way towards maintaining the periodic payments. Like, "It's that time of the month again (no not that one), I could just stop paying this fucking loser but then again I'd really like to get a sketch of [insert whatever weird thing I've been thinking about since the last sketch] so I guess I will. Also to support him. Yeah." At the same time I understand if you might not want to do that, since that seems like it could be more trouble than it's worth if you get a ton of subscribers and thus a ton of requests. You could do something like make those a monthly raffle and whoever wins submits a sentence on your next stream or whatever. I dunno. It's 3:00 A.M.
Also, if it hasn't become clear by now, I'm in favor of a monthly subscriber fee.
And sorry about the really long description I gave you for that one commission! I didn't realize that you don't like details. My father's an engineer so I was taught that knowing as much information as possible is always beneficial. And then something about missile systems. But the point is that I won't vomit words on you in the future.
Or as he might put it, "I was intoxicated by the elixir of my own verbosity."
I'm definitely going to do monthly subscriptions and I'll probably have a monthly "Backer Week" where everyone can participate in one way or another but a set number of pledgers will have request/commission slots.
If I ever put up a Patreon account someday, I will never go down the paywall route. I'm an artist, not a goddamn member of MPAA/RIAA.
BUT! You seem to be of this same opinion. So, with that in mind... I don't see why you can't do this... The only thing standing in your way. Is coming up with meaningful things to offer to those whom pledge too you. Which, I'm sure you can do. It has been done properly by a few people. Mostly those offering priority commissions, or drawing/doodling stream requests, or input on projects. Stuff like that. Stuff that in my mind. Makes sense. They aren't paying for access to your content as much as they'd be paying for access to you. Not that you'd be exclusive to them, but to me that is something worth paying for. That doesn't push people away from you and your artwork nearly as much as trying to hide yourself behind the infamous paywall.
-Porn is here today and forgotten tomorrow, as are cheap gimmicks. If you go that way you run into the problem of coming up with new gimmicks constantly. It's a race you can't win in the long run. Remember the comic 'Authority'? For one year we got more bombastic stories and then it dried up. They could't top themselves anymore. It's the same problem with some movies these days. After the heroes saved the planet, how do you top that? The galaxy or the universe next? And then what?
-Stories however stay much, much longer. Look at the Sandman comics. After 30 years DC Comics keeps reprinting the trade paperbacks. And stories should have an ending. Don't try to make it last forever. Have at least large chapters. The Webcomic 'Girl Genius' ( http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php ) does that. The 'Chapters' are printed as comics.
-The webcomic 'Druids' ( http://druids.thecomicseries.com/comics/ ) attracts readers with sex scenes and often the same readers say at the next sex scene: "Very nice sex scene, can we go back to the story?"
And yeah, I'm not into doing a lot of porn or racing to make fanart of every new thing that comes out simply because it doesn't interest me, I'd rather focus on drawing my comics (both of which already have their endings written, don't worry!) and creating a cohesive body of work that doesn't reek of cynical pandering.
And good to hear.
I don't follow anyone on Patreon, so I don't know it's ins and out. I've had artists I like go over to Patreon, and I've ended up not getting anything from them anymore - not because I don't like them or their style, but because their public outlets (FA, Weasyl, DevArt) went stale, and I've 'forgotten' about them.
There are a lot of artists that charge a LOT for a commission - ANY commission - and then they complain that they are poor and don't make enough money. And then when I send them a note, email, or whatnot goin', "Hey, would you be interested in doing something for $" and they end up getting mad at me, well, their loss.
Now, I may not be the typical fur - fuck, I know I'm not. Hell, I work on a railroad. But because of that, I get commishes when I can, with who I can. There may be months where I can't afford anything and don't purchase anything. But by continuing to post things that I can see - to remind me that you're still working, and still living, and laughing and having fun, well, that keeps you at the top of the list for when I go, "Hell, you know.. I wanna see Kami go on and rob a bank that closed down a friend's ranch!".. I think that you would be the one that could pull it off for me, and that you'd not only appreciate the job but would enjoy getting paid for it. Hopefully, then, too, doin' something for me would keep you at the top of other's minds, and so on.
Now, not sayin' that something like this *wouldn't* occur on Patreon, but I think that those that DO hide behind a pay-wall limit this kine of exposure - like others have mentioned, pulling everything down except for teases is NOT a way to win someone like me over. All I'll end up doing is scoffing at those teases and think that you're some ditz, and not worth my time.
And that's my thoughts, waiting for my next ride.
On the rest: I wouldn't abandon my FA since this is where I get decent exposure. I tried DA (too big) and Weasyl (too small) and FA has been sloooooowly, agonizingly, getting my work exposure. I'd only ditch this place if it went completely tits up.
And, good. I know a few artists I have liked, and then eventually lost interest in because they moved to Patreon behind the pay-wall. :(
I seem to recall hearing that Patreon doesn't allow raffle rewards anymore, so might want to check on that.
And yeah, I've got HUNDREDS of originals since I transitioned to traditional and they sell at cons but there's not enough cons!
but that's just my biased opinion. I far more like a focus of a comic or an animation or a story or a series, rather than "pay me and i'll just draw whatever!" cuz... sure fans could pay into it, but i feel like thats not as creative as a whole project to work on.
blablal subjective opinions~
and yea i do the same! with my comic downtime lately ive had LOTS more time to do commissions while i also start a new project :D it works well.
But I've seen a few use it properly per the site's rules. High-res images. Or variants of images. WIPs. Etc. I like the idea of being able to go after originals. There are several images I would've picked up at cons if funds hadn't been drained for hotel costs, etc.
I'm on the fence about patrons getting discounts or first crack at commission slots like some artists do. But those seem to get claimed quickly when offered.
You are one artist I would consider supporting depending on the reward setup.
I do think wips being posted exclusively to Patreon and Patreon exclusive streams aren't bad ideas! The livestream seems to be a very popular option for artists on Patreon as it allows the fans who'd presumably love the most (or at least enough to shot off a couple dollars) to know them more personally. You could host other non-Patreon exclusive streams as well, but maybe the Patreon one could have perks such as: less people, so possibly more fun, and also Patreon real time requests.
Uh... because you have a webcomic, it sounds like you would have plenty of content to post consistently (pencils as you mentioned).
Hmmm... I haven't seen other artists do this, but I had considered if I had a Patreon, there could also be a Patron level for discount codes to online merch and such. Not 100% sure if that's a great idea but have been thinking about it.
Anyway uh, I only skimmed the other comments so maybe you've already heard this! But 'tis my two cents. Good luck with whatever choice you make!
I myself have been considering it more strongly since consistent employment in the animation field is hard to come by. The long hiatuses aren't easy, man.
But you definitely seem to have enough of an audience, that I think a Patreon would be a worthy endeavor!
I neglect to pay attention to artists who put their content behind paywalls, I don't bother with names. I recognize yours but I'm not sure why, which tells me you did something that struck me as unique at one point but that, because I'm disconnected from the furry fandom due to schoolwork (engineering is hard), I won't remember until I have a break from schoolwork.
So. The artists I like I want to fund regardless of their work because I think they bring something into the world. I'm a college student, so I can't fund much. However, so far I've only commissioned artists that do more than render pictures with their art and audience.
So...I'd look at what your message was and what supporting you would bring into the world before deciding to support you on Patreon. So far, though, I don't even look at the site.
It's gone now. Q_Q