Words About Dicks
16 years ago
Wanna hear a dick joke?
Here's one: I've spoken out occasionally against male circumcision, how it's a cruel, needless practice and how it's just as immoral as female circumcision. And then some people get pissed at me for it! That's so stupid it has to be a joke, right? Right? Well, apparently not.
These people get all offended and blubber about how much worse female circumcision is. That so much more gets cut off in female circumcision, and that circumcised males can still have a normal sex life, and that circumcision makes the penis look better, and, most dishonest of all, they claim that circumcision actually lowers the risk of getting HIV by around 50%. Now, the AIDS thing is *technically* true. But what they mean by it is that if two guys both fuck a chick with AIDS, the uncut guy will have a statistically higher risk of contracting the disease than the cut guy. This ignores the fact that they both have a *zero* percent risk of contracting the disease if they don't fuck the AIDS chick in the first place. But of course, it's completely unreasonable to think that maybe parents could just teach their children "Don't go around fucking bitches with AIDS" instead of letting a doctor hack off a third to a full half of their penis skin, along with uncountable nerve endings. And it's more efficient too! After all, who has time to actually educate their children? Irreversible surgical procedures performed without anesthesia are so much *quicker*!
(Anticipating the inevitable response, 'But it's important to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa!' Number one, Africa and America are different places with different circumstances. Number two, if an ADULT male CHOOSES to have the procedure done to reduce his AIDS risk, I have absolutely no problem with that. Otherwise, same thing: Why can't African parents educate their kids instead of hacking up their dongs?)
I've even heard some guys who are circumcised say, "Hey, it's not that big a deal! I'm cut and I don't have any problems jerking off or having sex. I don't understand what's so important about foreskins!" As if this is actually an argument. I'm cut too. And yeah, I jerk off just fine. But see, I don't have anything to *compare* it with. It might be better with a foreskin. It might be worse. I don't know. And the reason why I don't know is because my mother agreed to the procedure out of ignorance and I wasn't given any choice in the matter. Would it be *impossible* to, say, hold off the circumcisions until the kid can decide for themselves if they want it? Saying it's no big deal when you've never known the alternative is like...
Okay, imagine a society where doctors gouge out babies' left eyes with their thumbs because some holy book says for some reason that left eyes are evil. And nobody objects to this because it's been going on for so long that no one bothers to think about it much. "Hey, it's not that big a deal! I got my left eye gouged out as a baby and I don't have any problems seeing with the other one! I don't understand what's so important about depth perception! Besides, in other countries, they cut out babies' left eyes, *plus* their left ears! Now THAT'S barbaric! Only gouging out the eye is so much more humane! Besides, eye patches look cool. Like a pirate! Arrrr! And did you know that having your left eye gouged out helps prevent AIDS? That's right; it makes it 50% less likely you'll see a chick who has AIDS and then take her home and sleep with her."
I want you all to pause for a second and think about this: 'If I had never heard of circumcision before, and then someone told me that people in some other country do it to their babies, would I be as accepting of it as I am right now?' There are many things in life that we accept only because they are considered normal, and so we do not think too much about whether there is any *reason* for doing these things. (Like putting people in jail for not covering their bodies with pieces of cloth, for instance.) If the only justification for doing something is, "because we've always done it", then that is no justification at all.
One more thing. I have pretty strong opinions on this topic, as you can tell, and frankly, I think doctors who perform circumcisions deserve to be sent to jail. If they've performed more than, say, a baker's dozen, they get life. I must be joking, right? That's going way too far, right?
Keep this in mind: scientists have found that babies are actually MORE sensitive to pain than adults. So, whether or not you wanna argue over circumcision's effects later in life, can we all agree that taking a newborn and jabbing him with a knife in the one place it's gonna hurt most is, if nothing else, a really rotten thing to do to a kid!? Does the fact that the baby cannot articulate, "That hurt! Why did you do that to me?" make it okay?
Imagine if there was some guy going around snatching kids out of baby carriages and cutting off their pinky toes with bolt cutters. Don't you think there'd be a wee bit of parental outrage? Don't you think maybe that guy might spend some time in prison? Don't you think he'd be guilty of unconscionable child abuse?
But why? After all, we don't really need our pinky toes. And the pain's over with quickly. And the babies are so young they probably won't remember it. And the toe chopping guy assures all the parents he wasn't doing it for sexual gratification, but because God told him to. Those are perfectly valid reasons, right? We should let him go off on his merry way to kidnap more babies and fill up more mason jars in his basement with infant toes, right? Because that's so much worse than when a doctor gives inaccurate information to a trusting parent to get them to sign a release form okaying the procedure, and then the doc goofs up and cuts off too big a chunk, and then they tell the parents to just go ahead and raise the kid as a girl, right? It happens. Not every time obviously, but it does happen. Anytime you're waving a knife around the most sensitive part of a developing human being's body, the risk of permanent nerve damage exists.
Yeah, I can totally see why people would be offended by my objection to this procedure.
I understand why they're offended.
Because they're fucking stupid.
Here's one: I've spoken out occasionally against male circumcision, how it's a cruel, needless practice and how it's just as immoral as female circumcision. And then some people get pissed at me for it! That's so stupid it has to be a joke, right? Right? Well, apparently not.
These people get all offended and blubber about how much worse female circumcision is. That so much more gets cut off in female circumcision, and that circumcised males can still have a normal sex life, and that circumcision makes the penis look better, and, most dishonest of all, they claim that circumcision actually lowers the risk of getting HIV by around 50%. Now, the AIDS thing is *technically* true. But what they mean by it is that if two guys both fuck a chick with AIDS, the uncut guy will have a statistically higher risk of contracting the disease than the cut guy. This ignores the fact that they both have a *zero* percent risk of contracting the disease if they don't fuck the AIDS chick in the first place. But of course, it's completely unreasonable to think that maybe parents could just teach their children "Don't go around fucking bitches with AIDS" instead of letting a doctor hack off a third to a full half of their penis skin, along with uncountable nerve endings. And it's more efficient too! After all, who has time to actually educate their children? Irreversible surgical procedures performed without anesthesia are so much *quicker*!
(Anticipating the inevitable response, 'But it's important to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa!' Number one, Africa and America are different places with different circumstances. Number two, if an ADULT male CHOOSES to have the procedure done to reduce his AIDS risk, I have absolutely no problem with that. Otherwise, same thing: Why can't African parents educate their kids instead of hacking up their dongs?)
I've even heard some guys who are circumcised say, "Hey, it's not that big a deal! I'm cut and I don't have any problems jerking off or having sex. I don't understand what's so important about foreskins!" As if this is actually an argument. I'm cut too. And yeah, I jerk off just fine. But see, I don't have anything to *compare* it with. It might be better with a foreskin. It might be worse. I don't know. And the reason why I don't know is because my mother agreed to the procedure out of ignorance and I wasn't given any choice in the matter. Would it be *impossible* to, say, hold off the circumcisions until the kid can decide for themselves if they want it? Saying it's no big deal when you've never known the alternative is like...
Okay, imagine a society where doctors gouge out babies' left eyes with their thumbs because some holy book says for some reason that left eyes are evil. And nobody objects to this because it's been going on for so long that no one bothers to think about it much. "Hey, it's not that big a deal! I got my left eye gouged out as a baby and I don't have any problems seeing with the other one! I don't understand what's so important about depth perception! Besides, in other countries, they cut out babies' left eyes, *plus* their left ears! Now THAT'S barbaric! Only gouging out the eye is so much more humane! Besides, eye patches look cool. Like a pirate! Arrrr! And did you know that having your left eye gouged out helps prevent AIDS? That's right; it makes it 50% less likely you'll see a chick who has AIDS and then take her home and sleep with her."
I want you all to pause for a second and think about this: 'If I had never heard of circumcision before, and then someone told me that people in some other country do it to their babies, would I be as accepting of it as I am right now?' There are many things in life that we accept only because they are considered normal, and so we do not think too much about whether there is any *reason* for doing these things. (Like putting people in jail for not covering their bodies with pieces of cloth, for instance.) If the only justification for doing something is, "because we've always done it", then that is no justification at all.
One more thing. I have pretty strong opinions on this topic, as you can tell, and frankly, I think doctors who perform circumcisions deserve to be sent to jail. If they've performed more than, say, a baker's dozen, they get life. I must be joking, right? That's going way too far, right?
Keep this in mind: scientists have found that babies are actually MORE sensitive to pain than adults. So, whether or not you wanna argue over circumcision's effects later in life, can we all agree that taking a newborn and jabbing him with a knife in the one place it's gonna hurt most is, if nothing else, a really rotten thing to do to a kid!? Does the fact that the baby cannot articulate, "That hurt! Why did you do that to me?" make it okay?
Imagine if there was some guy going around snatching kids out of baby carriages and cutting off their pinky toes with bolt cutters. Don't you think there'd be a wee bit of parental outrage? Don't you think maybe that guy might spend some time in prison? Don't you think he'd be guilty of unconscionable child abuse?
But why? After all, we don't really need our pinky toes. And the pain's over with quickly. And the babies are so young they probably won't remember it. And the toe chopping guy assures all the parents he wasn't doing it for sexual gratification, but because God told him to. Those are perfectly valid reasons, right? We should let him go off on his merry way to kidnap more babies and fill up more mason jars in his basement with infant toes, right? Because that's so much worse than when a doctor gives inaccurate information to a trusting parent to get them to sign a release form okaying the procedure, and then the doc goofs up and cuts off too big a chunk, and then they tell the parents to just go ahead and raise the kid as a girl, right? It happens. Not every time obviously, but it does happen. Anytime you're waving a knife around the most sensitive part of a developing human being's body, the risk of permanent nerve damage exists.
Yeah, I can totally see why people would be offended by my objection to this procedure.
I understand why they're offended.
Because they're fucking stupid.
;)
Well said.
Still, I did get rather educated from reading that! Thank you!
you're welcome. ;)
Although the title of this journal was Words About rather than Words For.
People were giving them condoms and telling them that wearing one would constitute as safe enough for safe sex.
Really now.
I agree that it's inhumane. There are plenty of practices that we perform that are inhumane. It's kinda pathetic how hypocritical our society is, to say that we are civilized and make decisions based on logic when there is nothing logical about the circumcision except for aesthetics. It would be more logical to allow a child to grow up enough to tell his folks whether or not he wants to cosmetically modify his body.
But what do I know... I'm not a doctor...
Actually, you might! If you're really serious about it, there are several devices available that stretch the remaining penis skin into about as close to a foreskin as one could hope to get.
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restore.html
>It would be more logical to allow a child to grow up enough to tell his folks whether or not he wants to cosmetically modify his body.
Absolutely! We don't force piercings or tattoos on babies. Why do we retain this one superstitious tribal ritual? In the freakin' 21st century!
>But what do I know... I'm not a doctor...
Don't say that; your reasoning is perfectly sound. When Richard Dawkins called theology completely useless, a lot of people criticized him for not having read lots of old, important theology books. His response was perfect: Do you need to make extensive study of 15th century fabrics in order to see that the emperor is, in fact, nude?
I like tangents. I shall continue.
I was involved in a ridiculous thread on a forum in which someone said that the ENTIRE field of psychiatry was a fraud and that the real way to psychological health was through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Now, it is not simple ad hominem to discount her opinion as ridiculous and untrue when her opinion directly contradicts the empirical evidence that psychiatry has produced helpful results for many. As a result of this, it is easy and probably correct, to ignore her opinions on the subject and many related to it, as she has deduced something that is provably incorrect due to flawed data.
What do you think about this? Are there situations wherein people's opinions can be discounted due to their lack of expertise? Or is this a different situation? I am just wondering what everyone thinks about this.
This is true. However, there are some who equate experts with Gods. I see it on the news and on talk radio, the attitude that 'If an expert said it, it MUST be true!' People tend to think in all-or-nothing terms. Sure, and expert is MORE likely to know more than a layman, but it doesn't mean they'll ALWAYS be right.
>I was involved in a ridiculous thread on a forum in which someone said that the ENTIRE field of psychiatry was a fraud and that the real way to psychological health was through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
<facepalm> Gimme a second. I need to recuperate from that.
>Now, it is not simple ad hominem to discount her opinion as ridiculous and untrue when her opinion directly contradicts the empirical evidence that psychiatry has produced helpful results for many. As a result of this, it is easy and probably correct, to ignore her opinions on the subject and many related to it, as she has deduced something that is provably incorrect due to flawed data.
Absolutely. There's a big damn difference between opinions about factual things and opinions about ethereal things. I can point out the many (MANY) technical flaws in Michael Bay's Transformers movie, but I can never successfully argue that someone is wrong for enjoying it. (Although I may think less of their intellect. ;) )
I've had arguments where I'll present a proven fact to someone, and they'll come back with a huffy, "That's just your opinion!" and I wanna *strangle* them! "No, it's not!! It's a fact which is borne out by evidence!" Ooooooh, how I wish proper debate/argument skills were taught in school...
>What do you think about this? Are there situations wherein people's opinions can be discounted due to their lack of expertise? Or is this a different situation? I am just wondering what everyone thinks about this.
Absolutely, I think there are situations where that can, and should, happen. Your 'Jesus > psychology' example is a good one. Also, white supremacists who think their race is superior to others. Science has proven that we're all 99.9999(etc.) percent identical, so their opinion is worthless. If it's a situation where a person's expressing a proven-wrong opinion, and there is readily-available proof of how wrong they are all around them, a good dose of ridicule is more than acceptable. However, I can definitely see someone saying they approve of circumcision for wrong reasons, yet only doing so because they've never had access to all the information on it. Similarly, I'll bet there are plenty of people who wear fur because they simply have no idea of what fur animals actually go through. In those cases, I'd try to gently educate them. And if afterwards they decided to go deny the evidence and persist in their ignorance, I'd just lay into them mercilessly. ;D
Oh yeah, I felt the same way. Another guy on the same forum was similarly idiotic. He was DEMANDING that actual CURES be produced before anyone take psychiatry seriously. I tried to explain that this is obviously a stupid thing to demand. I don't think he got it.
Also, regarding Transformers, I was watching this debate between Hitchens and some other guy, wherein the other guy suggested that the fact that people believe in something means it must have some element of truth. Well, people LOVE the Transformers movie, but that in NO way makes it good.
Actually, time for another tangent. My boyfriend and I had an interesting discussion regarding Transformers (he doesn't like it either, don't worry). He said things to the effect of though he doesn't like it at all, he could never consider it a bad movie in its entirety, if only because of the massive success it enjoyed. It is interesting to me to think about the criteria on which we judge such things. I will freely admit that there are specific qualities to that movie that do have merit and are indeed good, particularly ILM's work on it. However, I do not consider the success to ever be a real indicator of the quality of such a product.
Sorry, it's just interesting. Also, the trailer for the second movie makes me want to punch a baby in the foreskin . . . yeah . . .
Arrrrrrrgh. I get that from my grandfather. He thinks my therapist has magic beans or something, as evidenced by the fact that he's said several times things to the effect of 'Well, isn't he supposed to fix you?'
>Also, regarding Transformers, I was watching this debate between Hitchens and some other guy, wherein the other guy suggested that the fact that people believe in something means it must have some element of truth. Well, people LOVE the Transformers movie, but that in NO way makes it good.
"If a thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
>Actually, time for another tangent. My boyfriend and I had an interesting discussion regarding Transformers (he doesn't like it either, don't worry). He said things to the effect of though he doesn't like it at all, he could never consider it a bad movie in its entirety, if only because of the massive success it enjoyed. It is interesting to me to think about the criteria on which we judge such things. I will freely admit that there are specific qualities to that movie that do have merit and are indeed good, particularly ILM's work on it. However, I do not consider the success to ever be a real indicator of the quality of such a product.
I agree, the special effects team deserves much praise. But yeah, just because something's successful doesn't mean it's good. Lots of terrible movies make oodles of cash. Lookit all the goddam romantic comedies!! Also, if he thinks success = good, ask him if that applies to the Macarena and Who Let The Dogs Out. ;)
>Sorry, it's just interesting. Also, the trailer for the second movie makes me want to punch a baby in the foreskin . . . yeah . . .
Actually, I saw a trailer for it before the Wolverine movie, and I was struck silent by the mere fact that it actually looked almost not-terrible. The biggest thing for me was that it looked fucking *crammed* with robots, and probably the worst part of the first one was how so much of the movie was taken up by boring, unlikable human characters. If Transformers 2 is nothing but a 2-hour-long robot-on-robot beatdown, it will be a VASTLY superior film.
Also it will still contain much of the creepy fetishistic way Michael Bay shoots military equipment. I don't know, I didn't like the way the robots in the first movie were designed, even, so I don't think having a bunch of them fight for no reason will be an improvement for me, you know?
I think that a lot of the robots in the new movie are ugly as shit, and about the only good one is Sideswipe, and even then he looks nothing like Sideswipe has ever been.
All I'm saying is that the possibility exists that this will be better than the first one. Which is like the difference between a turd, and a turd with a chocolate chip stuck in it.
How'd we get onto Islam though? The Jews came up with dick-chopping.
TELL me you're being facetious.
"The practices of the interpretation of scriptures is outdated and barbaric" is different from "X religion is a crime."
Indeed, every argument I have ever heard from people who argue for circumcision at birth is really only distracting from the issue. People try to bring up things that are beneficial about circumcision, or reasons why it isn't that bad, all of which are flimsly at best. The HIV thing is by far the most legitimate argument in favor of circumcision, and even that deserves clarification; the circumstances wherein the statistic applies need to be stated, it should be better explained why exactly the statistic exists, and most importantly, the problem is that it ignores condom use completely.
Very quickly, regarding the HIV thing, I seem to remember hearing that it is against federal law to withhold from a sexual partner that you have HIV/AIDS if you know you have it. I may be wrong on this, and if so, someone please correct me. However, if it is true, it really erases alot of the other attempts by outside parties (meaning the people not having the dangerous sex) to reduce risk of contraction, because all one must do is make sure not to have sex with AIDS carriers.
Back to the point, however. It absolutely does not matter that there may be points in the favor of circumcision. No matter how life-saving it might be, no matter how much it reduces the risk of any STD, no matter how long we have been doing things this way, using those points to argue the practice is completely ignoring the point. There is nothing stopping someone who is of sound mind, independently thinking, and most importantly, old enough to decide for themselves from getting a circumcision, and if they want to, far be it from me or anyone else to stop them. All arguments in favor of circumcision are fine when applied to that situation, and that one only.
These arguments do absolutely nothing to argue the legitimacy of performing this process on babies.
What it comes down to for me is the realization that if we were a society that had never heard of circumcision, and someone started up a cult and began cutting off babies' foreskins, they would very likely be put in jail. Is uppose I should clarify; I'm not saying we should put doctors in jail right now, but for the pain they've caused I think they *deserve* to be in jail. Sometimes someone can deserve a punishment, but it is unrealistic to expect it to actually happen.
>These arguments do absolutely nothing to argue the legitimacy of performing this process on babies.
Yes, yes, YES!!! Oh, I could kiss you! That is the perfect essence of what I have tried to argue countless times. I remember I was arguing with this one fathead and I kept trying to get across the idea 'It's a horrible thing to do to babies', and he just kept going on and on and on about all the excuses we've already mentioned here. Pardon me, but isn't part of the Hippocratic Oath "First do no harm"!?
Indeed, though, to me, no one really addresses the issue at hand. The issue is in no way whether circumcision itself is good or bad, but that our current practices of painfully removing foreskin from babies, thereby removing any kind of choice in the matter, and permanently affecting their sex life in one way or another, is wrong and in no way morally defensible.
I think we tend to agree on lots of things on this subject, lol. I think this actually relates really well to the religion discussion, though circumcision for cleanliness was at one point useful. The only reason now that people still do it unquestioned is because it is traditional within religion. You aren't allowed to question religious beliefs, therefore you aren't really allowed to say bad things about practices that are based in religion. If you do so, you are labeled as intolerant. Ridiculous, I know. That's one of the biggest things I don't like about this country.
Side note, regarding medical practices, if a time should ever come when stem cell research progresses to the point to make us essentially immortal, wouldn't the Hippocratic Oath force doctors to cure people of old age?
Absolutely. I remember on Penn & Teller's Bullshit they talked about how Ghandi said some amazingly racist things against black people. But they were quick to point out that his attitude was completely _normal_ for the time period he was living in. You can't judge people for doing something they have no reason to believe is wrong.
>Indeed, though, to me, no one really addresses the issue at hand. The issue is in no way whether circumcision itself is good or bad, but that our current practices of painfully removing foreskin from babies, thereby removing any kind of choice in the matter, and permanently affecting their sex life in one way or another, is wrong and in no way morally defensible.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I think getting the information out there is super-important so that parents will learn and actually be able to make an informed decision. I'm very big on pushing little-heard opinions so that people can finally hear the other side of an issue that may have never occurred to them before.
>I think we tend to agree on lots of things on this subject, lol. I think this actually relates really well to the religion discussion, though circumcision for cleanliness was at one point useful. The only reason now that people still do it unquestioned is because it is traditional within religion. You aren't allowed to question religious beliefs, therefore you aren't really allowed to say bad things about practices that are based in religion. If you do so, you are labeled as intolerant. Ridiculous, I know. That's one of the biggest things I don't like about this country.
Totally agreed. It's insidious and cowardly that religions have done so much to insulate themselves from the kind of criticism that Anything Else On Earth should be able to withstand. I think the early church leaders knew damn well their beliefs could never stand up to reason, so the idea that 'questioning faith is horribly rude' was created intentionally.
>Side note, regarding medical practices, if a time should ever come when stem cell research progresses to the point to make us essentially immortal, wouldn't the Hippocratic Oath force doctors to cure people of old age?
<shrug> I dunno. I've read enough sci-fi to know that there'd likely be lots of people who would insist that a life has to end eventually. That anything that exists forever without changing will eventually become boring to the point of madness. Personally, I'm not sure I'd wanna live forever, but I would absolutely like to have the possibility exist, so that I can choose to die after I've done everything I wanted to accomplish.
Sorry to totally hijack this, but I find this to be such an interesting subject. I wrote an English paper on embryonic stem cell research. It is interesting to me that the only real reason not to allow stem cell research on blastocysts is religious. At that point in development, the embryos don't have nervous systems, or even neurons, and therefore they can almost certainly not feel any pain, at least not in the human sense.
I read an article against it, which discussed a new process, currently still not perfected, in which embryonic stem cells can be retrieved from umbilical and placental tissue, thereby not destroying any embryos. The writer asks why people who support embryonic stem cell research were not really pleased and celebrating such a development, and he went to the odd non-sequitur that their goal must really be to farm fetuses for something or other. This ignores the fact that we have so many embryos at our disposal, many of which will be destroyed anyway, but we are not using them. The only reason we are not is a religious one, the belief that this tiny cluster of cells is somehow special and has a soul. That's why people aren't celebrating. We are ignoring the resources we have, instead using roundabout and still being worked on techniques to get the same results, and all to please a whiny group of people who do not base their reasoning on any form of science at all.
Sorry for that tangent, but it needed to be said lol. It is shocking how many things in this country are only that way because people base their views of science on something other than science, and we cannot question it.
You keep pushing these small opinions, dude. People need to hear them.
Just the point I was about to raise. I would definitely make use of stem-cell anti-aging technology if it were available since, while I may not wanna live forever, if I can keep from becoming a wrinkly, decrepid old shambling sack of bones, that'd be great. Old age scares the shit outta me, frankly.
>Sorry to totally hijack this, but I find this to be such an interesting subject.
Hey, no problem! It's interesting to me too.
>That's why people aren't celebrating. We are ignoring the resources we have, instead using roundabout and still being worked on techniques to get the same results, and all to please a whiny group of people who do not base their reasoning on any form of science at all.
WONDERFULLY SAID!!! <thunderous applause> I could not agree more. The anti side is saying, "Why aren't we doing the solution that pleases everyone?" and the pro side replies, "Because we shouldn't HAVE TO." It's not science's job to please everyone, it's science's job to find out what works best. Scientists should not have to make any kind of allowances for religious faith because there is no reason to. (Factoring in morality, on the other hand, is necessary since it not only has real consequences, but morality has been proven to be pretty constant amongst almost all humans.)
>Sorry for that tangent, but it needed to be said lol. It is shocking how many things in this country are only that way because people base their views of science on something other than science, and we cannot question it.
I know. I despise the idea of doing things just because they are traditional, or because 'it's too much fuss' to try to change them. I absolutely hate the idea of 'leave well enough alone'. We should always strive to be better, to do more and learn more. When we are content to sit placidly in our ignorance, we rot like the dead.
>You keep pushing these small opinions, dude. People need to hear them.
My supreme theory of everything is "Extremes are very rarely a good idea." It fits pretty much every situation. Including the idea that issues are almost never black and white, fully good or fully evil. The minority viewpoint is *always* worth listening to, even if it turns out to be wrong.
Also, "Because we shouldn't HAVE TO." is an excellently concise version of my response. lol
And I honestly don't believe at all in the idea of pure good and evil, so I don't really believe in moral absolutes. People who do forget that there is no real concrete basis for morality, that it varies between societies and there is no way to prove that the society you disagree with is "wrong" or "evil."
Damn straight. I can't believe that some religous people actually believe that it is *impossible* to be moral without religion. It makes me wanna ask them, "So, does that mean if you weren't a Christian you'd choose to lie, kill, steal and fuck prostitutes?" ;)
>People still think that they get their morality from their religion, when in fact they only define their already socially instilled morals by the religion they have.
As evidenced by the fact that most Christians do not, for example, stone disobedient children to death.
>Also, "Because we shouldn't HAVE TO." is an excellently concise version of my response. lol
Tee hee. You're welcome.
>And I honestly don't believe at all in the idea of pure good and evil, so I don't really believe in moral absolutes. People who do forget that there is no real concrete basis for morality, that it varies between societies and there is no way to prove that the society you disagree with is "wrong" or "evil."
Actually, I DO believe in an objective good and evil. Condensing it down as much as possible, it's my belief that, if an action causes *far* more suffering than it relieves, it is evil and if it results in *far* more pleasure than it takes away, then it is good. Most things, you can determine how good or evil they are by weighing the consequences (and factoring in the intentions, too). So, it's more of a scale of good and evil, rather than putting things into one category or another.
Regarding your hypothetical question to Christians, I believe I mentioned this before, but I have talked to multiple Christians who did say yes to that very question.
AGH! I had something else to say that was friggin hilarious but I CAN'T REMEMBER! Well, I'll try later.
See, I dunno. I think that in practically any situation where there is a population that needs to get along with each other, the rules of morality I mentioned would naturally evolve. I think that if something keeps popping up on its own in a variety of different situations, we can begin to consider it a constant.
Compared to the governments I've seen... well... Hippos are known for their violent tempers and fighting. What would be different?
We're getting off on a tangent. I'll sine off now.
while I don't agree with doing it for astetics or religion, doing it for health reasons im okay with
though while they were doing that they should a fixed my fucking toung *grumbles* I'm tounge tied, and not in the metaphorical sense either, literally...id explain it but that'd take too long im sure theres a medical site out there or something that could explain it, never bothered looking myself
Look at it this way; yes, you *could* get an infection in your foreskin. You also *could* get an infection in any other part of your body. Is that reason enough to remove them? I constantly hear on the local news about all sorts of health concerns that could potentially harm people, yet they never give any kind of reference for how great a risk it really is!! To tell me that something is risky means nothing. Crossing the street and playing russian roulette both carry a risk of injury, but I'm sure you'd agree there's a huge difference between how MUCH risk each one has. I'd love for someone to show me hard statistics of how many people get really serious foreskin infections every year, and whether or not those are proportional to the number of infections to other body parts.
Tired of having to blow your nose all the time?...
;)
(I say 'claiming' because I've seen TruTV shows about federal cases involving doctor impersonators. Ain't pretty.)
You can't put religion as a back up, because Abraham (the guy that pimped his wife to fund a nation) was a grown man when he was told he had to get snipped. Not a kid, not a teen, a grown man. I am as religious as I can be without actually talking with the big guy, but i can't believe he would have me drop my pants with St. Peter and boot me from the gate because my trouser snake is a spitting cobra. I guess the tradition became "babies first" because they are less likely to shove that cock cutter up the doc's "Its healthy in the long run" ass.
Now for health issues. I've heard/read/been told in health class that cut cocks are healthier. To that I might agree. Possibly less smegma, easier to see if something is wrong, and it wont retain the sent of piss.... or you can do what I do and learn to clean your penis properly. Q-tip under the hood with warm water. Wash regularly (can NOT stress that enough). And air out on occassion. Thats right. AIR OUT. You are less likely to get infections if you let fresh air in. Put aside an hour or so at home to just let the boys hang out. In private (hah a pun), or in a group (may lead to orgy, but thats up to you).
I have no intention of having my possible son meet the Foreskin Man, but I can hear the debate of "What if your wife wants your kid to?" Here is my rebutal. "If my wife wants to cut the child's foreskin off, then she will be held under contract to have her nipples pierced without any form of anesthetic in the public forum of my choosing." (If a briss can be a family party, so can this). It will be visually pleasing, and the child will have more holes to suck through while he is nursing."
Thats all I can think about. Now to get back to the drawing pad.
Eeeeeyikes.
>I guess the tradition became "babies first" because they are less likely to shove that cock cutter up the doc's "Its healthy in the long run" ass.
<blinks> WOW. I hadn't thought of that before, but it makes a lot of sense. Maybe the fact that babies are incapable of consent is a reason WHY it's done to them. Jeez...
>Now for health issues. I've heard/read/been told in health class that cut cocks are healthier. To that I might agree. Possibly less smegma, easier to see if something is wrong, and it wont retain the sent of piss.... or you can do what I do and learn to clean your penis properly. Q-tip under the hood with warm water. Wash regularly (can NOT stress that enough). And air out on occassion. Thats right. AIR OUT. You are less likely to get infections if you let fresh air in. Put aside an hour or so at home to just let the boys hang out. In private (hah a pun), or in a group (may lead to orgy, but thats up to you).
Plus, the simple fact is that *any* part of you will get smelly is you never wash and/or never air them out. My feet can get stinky after a long day of walking around, but that doesn't mean Imma let someone cut 'em off.
>I have no intention of having my possible son meet the Foreskin Man, but I can hear the debate of "What if your wife wants your kid to?" Here is my rebutal. "If my wife wants to cut the child's foreskin off, then she will be held under contract to have her nipples pierced without any form of anesthetic in the public forum of my choosing." (If a briss can be a family party, so can this). It will be visually pleasing, and the child will have more holes to suck through while he is nursing."
Oooooh, I like the idea. Even better though. "Sure we can ave him circumcized, honey! Except that YOU have to do it yourself. You have to hold up your son's penis and cut into it with a striaght razor, and then you have to live with the memory of his screams of pain for the rest of your life. Sounds fair to me!"
And people wonder why so many Father Flannigans go around with the alter boys.
>" My feet can get stinky after a long day of walking around, but that doesn't mean Imma let someone cut 'em off."
*puts away the hack saw* Darn. But it does bring up a thought. I was checking out some of the anthropology/sociology books in my library involving nudist colonies, and a great deal of the males in the pics still have the skin. Could mean nothing, could mean something.
> "Sure we can ave him circumcized, honey! Except that YOU have to do it yourself. You have to hold up your son's penis and cut into it with a striaght razor, and then you have to live with the memory of his screams of pain for the rest of your life. Sounds fair to me!"
I bet someone would say that would be dangerous due to post partum depression (Who else reads Dr. Spock) .... To which I would say "Then don't cut it!" Some parts of old culture needs to be weeded out... and I hink this is a damn good start.
The darn old Jews didn't feel like listening pretty much spawned this whole thing.
The darn old Jews didn't feel like listening pretty much spawned this whole thing.
Probably does. I've seen studies that show that kids who live in nudist colonies have much healthier self-images and overall better self-worth than non-nude kids. Which makes sense, because if you tell someone they must be covered up at all times, they will believe that they are ugly and deserve to be covered. So, probably they don't feel the need to mutilate their penises because it 'looks better'.
>I bet someone would say that would be dangerous due to post partum depression (Who else reads Dr. Spock) .... To which I would say "Then don't cut it!" Some parts of old culture needs to be weeded out... and I hink this is a damn good start.
You know what else we should get rid of? Cemeteries! I vote we start eating the dead.
Because that's kinda sexy.
Because that's kinda sexy.
I agree. Plus it would cut down on future zombie invasions.
Eat them first!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpSa7PIZHBQ
It needs porn!
Warning: Zombies may "Wasssssup!" for hours. Effectiveness may decrease with fresher zombies. Zomies in Amsterdam have high tolerence rate.
Eating an arm or some balls should be fine.
(You need a droll voice for that one. ^.~ Damn text. )
A number of species will do this I think.
No one circumcised their kids in the US until the 1890s. It's pretty well documented how sexually repressive the Victorian era was. Anyway, puritanical types of the era pushed to have doctors start circumcisng male infants NOT because it would be cleaner, but so that adolescent males would not touch themselves. I'm not sure how these myths about circumcision have developed over the years, but my guess would be because the practice has existed for over 100 years. People have forgotten why it was done in the first place, so they make up things that sound logical.
Yyyyeah, I kinda wish I hadn't...
But it's still called Practice. Does that mean they're still not getting all of it right?
Actually, I've heard scientists are doing some amazing stuff with vampire bat saliva; that the anticoagulents in it are, like, a bazillion times better than anythign we currently have. Go bats!
Im cut and i always wondered what it would be like to have what was removed.
Chopping off a part of the body for... tradition or because its always done.. is just a dumb assed reason..
* sighs* people are stupid.
There are devices that restore foreskins, or come pretty darn close to it. I'd consider trying one, but I masturbate so much I'd be constantly taking the thing off... ;)
>people are stupid.
Very, sadly, true. Individual persons can be very smart, but collectively, people are fuckin' dumb as shit. (It's my personal theory that people get individually dumber the more of them you crowd into a single area.)
I've heard of those.. they look intimdating to me XD And i'd be taking mine off for the same damn reason XD
> Very, sadly, true. Individual persons can be very smart, but collectively, people are fuckin' dumb as shit. (It's my personal theory that people get individually dumber the more of them you crowd into a single area.)
Its a valid theory to me. People get swept up into raging tides of stupidity in groups. Then again with my job i see more stupid people then smart ones.. A lot more stupid people. Humans have a pack mentality... and its a stupid one at that.
Heh. Actually, the barbell-shaped one looks kinda fun.
>Its a valid theory to me. People get swept up into raging tides of stupidity in groups. Then again with my job i see more stupid people then smart ones.. A lot more stupid people. Humans have a pack mentality... and its a stupid one at that.
I had a chilling epiphany a while ago that it may be *necessary* to a functioning society for most of its members to be stupid. Think about it; if everyone were to reach their full mental potential, who would take out the garbage? Who would do the menial, manual jobs that are essential to our continued quality of life? It's horribly plausible, and very, very sad. Still, maybe when one day everything's run by robots we can finally afford to all be smart.
I'll have to check that out XD
>I had a chilling epiphany a while ago that it may be *necessary* to a functioning society for most of its members to be stupid. Think about it; if everyone were to reach their full mental potential, who would take out the garbage? Who would do the menial, manual jobs that are essential to our continued quality of life? It's horribly plausible, and very, very sad. Still, maybe when one day everything's run by robots we can finally afford to all be smart.
I don't nessicarly agree with that. Even if everyone were to become very intelligent.. there would be those that do these jobs.. Robots are plausable but one would wonder the effects of powering such things and the possable pollutants and other side effects. (if you've seen Wall-E, you get the idea)
And of course among the intelgent there are the lazy or simply those who are not drivin to compete in the mental suprerority contest that would arise.. They would porbably do the jobs. and be happy that the arent braking their brains over those kind of things.
One does not need to be stupid to enjoy physical work., Even I tend to enjoy moving furniture and constructing it for the furniture department from time to time.
Its like they treat people like.. .Human beings... On and Retiring is only for the rich.. Everyone else has to work in order to pay for overpriced medicine and medical expenses.
Ever seen Michael Moore's "Sicko"? I was fucking _floored_ at how much better French employees have it over Americans.
>On and Retiring is only for the rich.. Everyone else has to work in order to pay for overpriced medicine and medical expenses.
EXACTLY. That's the punchline to the Big Lie. 'Whoops! You worked your whole life away, and now you're too brittle and sickly to enjoy all that money you saved up! Awww, too bad!' I say, every life needs a healthy dose of pure hedonism.
I HATE the usa's work system. theres no point out of paying debts shoved up your ass. We need some control. and a good dose of socalism. Espeally in the medical relm. And note these are the same people begging for government money for their corperations.. God forbid they spend some of their own cash on something besides their third island. Meh.
We need control... and to force the closing of any company trying to pay off officals.. and if any officals take the cash, they should have to pay it to the people and then be BANNED from running for ANY office.
If its not stopped and harshly, this will never change.
Before I continue, I feel I should mention that I get lots of this information from my boyfriend, but he knows lots of shit, lol. If my facts are wrong someone please tell me.
But anyway, one result of this is that the ADD kids would grow up and take the menial jobs like mechanics. However, now, there are medical solutions to those kinds of disorders, and therefore many more people are now going to college who would not have had the opportunity to before, due to difficulty functioning in a normal learning environment. So, in a while, once this generation grows up, there may indeed be far less people trying to get menial jobs than there were before, because they all got college degrees for something or other. It'll be interesting to see how this ends up playing out.
>It'll be interesting to see how this ends up playing out.
Agreed. I frankly have no idea how it will. I'm hoping though that it'll lead to more of an acceptance for 'This is inefficient. We can do this better' kinds of thinking.
"The IQ of a mob is the IQ of its most stupid member divided by the number of mobsters."
- Terry Pratchett
I'll tell you something else, too. Having foreskin gives you so many more options when it comes to masturbation. Your skin is like a natural lubrication, a sliding barrier between you and your cock, which gives you exactly the same amount of pleasure as a male with a cut penis masturbating with lubrication. And THEN, if you want even more, you can use toys or genuinely fuck somebody, which pulls the skin back, and turns your sensitivity up by multiples.
Circumcision. Supreme nonsense.
A really excellent point! I've noticed that, in general, a lot of medical advice is overblown. As if people are fragile as glass and have no immune systems. It's good to use common sense, but you don't gotta live in a plastic bubble.
>I'll tell you something else, too. Having foreskin gives you so many more options when it comes to masturbation. Your skin is like a natural lubrication, a sliding barrier between you and your cock, which gives you exactly the same amount of pleasure as a male with a cut penis masturbating with lubrication. And THEN, if you want even more, you can use toys or genuinely fuck somebody, which pulls the skin back, and turns your sensitivity up by multiples.
Can you tuck a little ball into it and then shoot it across the room? :D
But now, I have to. Where's my old marble collection...
Sometimes it seems to me that it's pushing a religious agenda using health as an excuse. Honestly, are guys so lazy that they can't clean their own genitals?
Indeed. Nature usually knows best. Why the heck do you think we have evolution? It tends to get rid of useless things and leave things that we actually need.
Also, regarding faving journals, bug the admins. Seriously. I hear constantly about people wanting to fav journals. Maybe if the clamor for it annoys them enough, they'll do something about it.
I hear the preference of looks a *lot*. I think it's probably related to simply relating to what reminds you of yourself. Those who have been cut for as long as they can remember feel more comfortable with its appearance because they're familiar with it. Uncut looks unfamiliar, strange and alien.
I have no real set position on circumsions, but I do feel like it should be done with the consent of the person getting circumsised, since babies are more sensitive to pain and it sounds wrong to "change" a person's happy place without them having a say-so, obviously.
BTW, you ever pull your ballsac up over your dick and make your penis disappear? I found that an endlessly amusing magic trick as a kid.
Also, good for Norway! Them Netherlands folks seem to have their heads on straight in regards to a whole bunch of quality-of-life issues.
I freely admit I suck at geography.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_(disambiguation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_(terminology)
THERE'S A REASON. @_@
So, is Zimbabwe part of the Netherlands or what? ;)
<shoots self in head to relieve the pain>
That is... Unspeakable. That is just sad beyond words. Jesus fucking shit...
Because dicks like booze. That's why.
...Oh. This wasn't actually a dick joke thread. Understood. Also, I agree with you as usual.
And hey, guess why? My parents had the same idea as the tiny little scribbling fox behind his computer did.
"Let 'em grow up to decide on their own."
To describe how it feels... Well, it's like a few more bits of nerve endings - More receptors to pleasure and pain, and also capable of sliding over the glans a little more... Softly than bare fingers.
One thing I've heard, not sure if fact, is that without the foreskin, a thin layer of mucus thickens around the head of the cock... ~Shrugs.~ Personally, I'd rather not have that glossy finish... I like my dangler the way it dangles.
It'd be a lot rougher, though.
Your parents are awesome then. :)
>One thing I've heard, not sure if fact, is that without the foreskin, a thin layer of mucus thickens around the head of the cock... ~Shrugs.~ Personally, I'd rather not have that glossy finish... I like my dangler the way it dangles.
I have never had mucus on my wiener. I don't think I've ever even sneezed on it. ;)
"... If it became regular skin... I have no idea what it would feel like."
Probably much the same, just significantly less sensitive.
Not mucus per se, but a protective membrane in place of the foreskin.
~Probably much the same,...
I had the same thought, just... Didn't want to be the first to say it.
Nope. Not that I can tell. It's just like reg'lar skin. Just, more penis-shaped. ;)
BTW, I am uncut.
So my dickhead is basically a giant callous. I want to find the doctor who cut me and wring his neck even MORE now...
It's divine to own a dick.
From the tiniest little tadger
To the world's biggest prick!
Hooray for your one-eyed trouser snake!
Your piece of pork, your wife's best friend, your percy or your cock
You can wrap it up in ribbons, you can slip it in your sock
But don't take it out in public, or they will stick you in the dock
(Though I've no idea why)
And you won't
uh-come
uh-back.
Ohhhh, thank you very much.
(Low-key, get it? Yeah, that was terrible.)
I WANT THE GOD DAMNED CHUCK OF MY TALLIWACKER THAT PRICK LOPED OFF BACK! AND I WANT IT BACK NOW!
Fact 1: It is stated that God created us in his image, therefore we are made after his likeness and should not mutilate ourselves.
Fact 2: For one reason or another (never HAVE found a listen reason why God wanted to guillotine the ol' Gigglestick), God demands that males be circumcized.
Now wait just a minute! If Christians believe that all life is sacred and that we are made after His Holy Hotshit's likeness, then forcing an individual with no capacity for free will or argument to undergo a procedure that detracts from this perfect creation based on their object of worship is CONTRADICTORY.
Therefore, to win this argument, either tell a Christian these two facts and when they say that can't be right, say this:
"Well, since they both can't be right, either circumcision is wrong, or God is. Take your pick."
Watch. Them. Squuiiirrrmmm. :3
Yeah, I'm thinking of how so many hardcore religious folks uphold the command not to cut their beards. At least beards grow back!!
Ooooh, I can't wait to try this on someone...
Meh, now you can! <glee!>
Circumsision is part of Jewish faith, not Christian.
Not only that. It was basically a symbol to put you out from the rest. That you did what God told you to do.
Sort of a self branding, so to speak.
God's kind of an asshole. Just look at Job.
But I digress. The whole thing is just unfair to the child. I was cut and while I can't remember what it sounded like, Mom told me much later on that she immediately wished she had said NO, judging from the screams. But! Alex is right in that it can be kinda grown back. Granted, mine *somewhat* has, but still isn't the real deal.
As for the whole "standing out from others", what kind of God makes the requirement for that? "Well, everyone'll think you're super cool if you put your baconstick in that meatslicer over there just a little bit!" Yeaaah, no. Also, while circumcision may have BEGUN in Jewish faith, Christians basically stole it because they thought it was a good idea. Yes, Jesus never said that, but someone down the line may have gotten tired of the bragging from the Jewish people and decided to make it a rule so the Christians didn't get left behind.
Not trying to be mean here, that's just my opinion on what happened.
And no duh Christians did it anyway. They only did it because they were Jews before becoming Christian and were basically following the traditions of there old religion as tradition rather than being for a purpose. (The willing to brand yourself a follower of God.)
The hair...THE HAIR I TELL YOU.
Or maybe not. :3
Way back when I asked my mom what chscumision was... she told me about it and that it basically makes it look nicer. And I pretty much agreed with her.
I just think it goes under the whole parents raise there kids the way they want to.
If a parent wants the kid to grow up and decide to have earrings: okay.
Same goes for circumsision. If the parent allows it.
On religous terms: some where in the new testament it was decreed that Jews didn't have to be circumsized anymore.
Therefore, it should be okay for parents to give their female babies permanent tattooed-on makeup because it makes them look nicer? Who cares if the child grows up and doesn't like that decision! Do parents have absolute dominion over their children and never have to think about the long-term consequences of their acts?
The one thing that pisses me off about the AIDS bit is: why do they believe that will slow the spread of AIDS when the Mosquitoes that spread AIDS don't care whom they bite?
Have you considered trying one of the many foreskin restoration devices?
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/qa32.htm
(When I typed in 'can mosquitoes', Google replied with about eight different variants of 'spread AIDS'.)
I thought not. I mean, if mosquitoes really DID transmit HIV, we'd *all* have it in a matter of months.
THANK YOU. I swear, I have heard so much bullshit about this in all the time I've posted pics of uncut characters. "ohhh, I prefer uncuuuuttt, please mutilate your character's dick m'kaaaaay" GOD. >=/
The Holy Ghost will always rescue from a bug or something.