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Roadblocks to Honest Discussion With Theists
3 years ago
Hey everyone. Lately I've been listening to plenty of responses to Christian Apologetics, finding it more discouraging to see the same arguments being thrown against me and the rest of the atheist community. I'd like to highlight some of the most troubling trends about this ancient worldview that continues to plague the minds of countless. If you do hold to such beliefs, please do not take such as an attack against you personally. However, these are observations that cannot be denied by the masses any longer, because such stances and behaviors are all to common roadblocks to engaging in honest discussions from one side to the other. The first step in repairing relationships across the aisles is to acknowledge discouraging talking points, so let's review them below.
1. Without God, there is no purpose to your own life. You are just a clump of cells that won't matter in the long run.
This point right here paints a nasty strawman to my fellow atheists. Because religions, especially Abrahamic based ones like Christianity, are dead set in assigning every human's purpose to the percieved "will" of their chosen God. However, no group of people can claim an absolute purpose that defines the reason everyone chooses to life. Part of being human in the first place is discovering purpose for our own lives. We're able to have that agency above other species. Why? Sure, that can be debated if that is the cause via having a soul or the (more likely) evolution of our brains to allow such complex thought. But if you're here as a theist, wanting to throw this point around, all that will accomplish is frustration because you simply will not dare to understand the motivations of the other side. Many theists are rather brainwashed into accepting a scary dichotomy. Either one is motivated to live for God, and thus happily ever after, or one is always miserable because they lack divine direction. I personally find it very annoying how theists are hyper fixated on supporting this point via asking the other side to provide an origin to all things without contradictions. It's a dishonest way to undermine anything atheists can say about explaining their own world view, because it's not the same from atheist to atheist. But that's fine. If we were all motivated in the exact same way, why would we care about individuality? We may as well be like most other species on the planet, existing to survive and little else.
Additionally, because something isn't eternal, doesn't mean it can't have value. Value is relative after all. Who TRULY has the authority to say what we can value or not? The memories we make with ourselves and loved onces matter to us. Religion has poisioned a lot of minds in assigning such hope and stock in living forever via their dogma. But if you truly think about it, is living forever in bliss truly... "living"? There's a good reason why such afterlife theory is so poorly supported by holy texts, because the afterlife has no stock in convincing those in THIS life to follow this God. Just "eternal reward" and "eternal suffering" is good enough to drive people into doing whatever one commands them to do. That to me is sickening, undermining humanity's ability to critically think for themselves.
2. Morality must be absolute and have a source.
If this were the case, and 'true morality' is 'written' across all human hearts, why is there is so much disagreement? Sure, most popular religions will love to point to a form of sin and falling away from the creator as the true cause. However, I don't think that is remotely an adequate answer. To assume such would mean first proving the existence of such a creator and why the care about "sin". While I believe natural materials and laws are just well... natural and self evident without a cause, I can't completely disregard the possibility of some powerful being who made us. The nature of such a powerful being is always up to debate, and my own observations of reality would sway me to believe this being doesn't care about us after they made us. That we're just something to observe like some bored kid making toysets in the cosmic bedroom. Still, this is all just my opinion in the end.
Anyway, the bigger problem of this stance is the definition of morality. Religious morality is rather cherry picked, with a boatload of excuses to ignore or undermine what their deity commanded in the past. One of the biggest exampels I can think of is rules for slavery and how to conquer surrounding nations. I think secular morality has a better system to measure if something contributes to the wellbeing of any living thing you wish to examine. From such, we can determine things that are more helpful than others with repeated experiments and results. Does this improve wellbeing or not? That's just part of the growing pains of any society, and we can't be afraid to explore alternatives as we evolve. However, religion typically does not want to budge from its rules, claiming they have all the answers. If something doesn't comply with their holy texts, unfortunately that ends all discussion with them. Because then the burden is placed on atheists to discredit the text enough to at least get such people to listen to our arguments. Honestly, a lot of me believes that such theists choose to worship a book and authority in their faith over trust themselves to critically think. This is quite consistent with a cult driven society, and its sad to see people make countless mental gynmastics to support an inconsistent God figure.
3. Positive human emotions have no basis without a God. There's nothing stopping you from wanting to bring the world to ruin by acting in completely your own self interest
This is just a sad attempt for religious individuals to claim ownership abstract things that we all cherish. Things like love, trust, community, and passion. Religion has claimed that the reason we're able to have strong families, societies, and good times is because of what God has done. However, that is further from the truth, as many demonstrable societies have existed without such figures demanding things from them. Humanity is a social species, and for the sake of our own survival, getting along is part of the process. It would be very convinient for these religions to point to group of people and have them be demonstrably miserable for their claim to hold water. That is why a lot of them engage in missionary trips around the world to 'help' struggling societies while converting them at the same. I personally cannot stand such trips, as such efforts to convert others could put the lives of these people in more jeopardy than before they arrived. Sure, that would be dismissed by such people since they value the unprovable "eternal fate" over one's soul versus their wellbeing in the current day. But that's a gamble to me, and one that people should not be put through.
As far as acting in your own self interest, that's not always a bad thing. Again, this is just as symptom of basic black/white thinking that is common in religions. If society is pressuring you into doing things that make you geniually unhappy, why continue to conform? You can't help increase the wellbeing of others if you're killing yourself internally from such social pressures. This is why I get pissed off when certain religious structures demand married couples stay together even if things break apart later on. Divorce is a wonderful invention that values the individual and personal responsibility to seek another bond. Some kids might be happier in that instance, some are clearly not. But it can be used as a learning experience for the next generation. I try to see the positivity in all things. And maintaining one's autonomy is one of the things I value the most in life.
4. Atheists seek to destroy every religious population they come across because they are an agent of evil
And this right here is classic fear mongering. Typically, it's actually the religious majority that seek power to wipe out such an unbelieving crowd via establishing a theocracy. They are the ones that advocate that true peace is obtained once their deity swoops on down to cause armageddon, destroys all false believers, and then rescues the rest like some chosen population. If an theist wants to paint their opposition as such, that is such a hard thing to go around. Criticizing a worldview does not advocate for the destruction of it. Of course, PERSONALLY I'd like to see secular humanism become the governing world view as that has the most room growth. But I know religion provides comfort to countless and helps them lead better lives. Still, it is important to question why we believe what we believe. Even scientific papers and pursuits need to be carefully examined before being convinced by them.
Anyway, that's it for now. Thanks for continuing to listen to my thought dumps and supporting everything that I am. I have been much happier without the presence of religion in my life, and I don't want to hear that I'm lying to myself. Because none of you know what's in my own heart. I choose to act for the interests of myself and those I care about. I hope my gaming streams and online presence here can bring joy to others. My own legacy is something I always think about, yeah. But I rather work towards it on my own terms instead of living up to expectations set by any group or individual.
Love you all. Keep those minds thinking critically!
1. Without God, there is no purpose to your own life. You are just a clump of cells that won't matter in the long run.
This point right here paints a nasty strawman to my fellow atheists. Because religions, especially Abrahamic based ones like Christianity, are dead set in assigning every human's purpose to the percieved "will" of their chosen God. However, no group of people can claim an absolute purpose that defines the reason everyone chooses to life. Part of being human in the first place is discovering purpose for our own lives. We're able to have that agency above other species. Why? Sure, that can be debated if that is the cause via having a soul or the (more likely) evolution of our brains to allow such complex thought. But if you're here as a theist, wanting to throw this point around, all that will accomplish is frustration because you simply will not dare to understand the motivations of the other side. Many theists are rather brainwashed into accepting a scary dichotomy. Either one is motivated to live for God, and thus happily ever after, or one is always miserable because they lack divine direction. I personally find it very annoying how theists are hyper fixated on supporting this point via asking the other side to provide an origin to all things without contradictions. It's a dishonest way to undermine anything atheists can say about explaining their own world view, because it's not the same from atheist to atheist. But that's fine. If we were all motivated in the exact same way, why would we care about individuality? We may as well be like most other species on the planet, existing to survive and little else.
Additionally, because something isn't eternal, doesn't mean it can't have value. Value is relative after all. Who TRULY has the authority to say what we can value or not? The memories we make with ourselves and loved onces matter to us. Religion has poisioned a lot of minds in assigning such hope and stock in living forever via their dogma. But if you truly think about it, is living forever in bliss truly... "living"? There's a good reason why such afterlife theory is so poorly supported by holy texts, because the afterlife has no stock in convincing those in THIS life to follow this God. Just "eternal reward" and "eternal suffering" is good enough to drive people into doing whatever one commands them to do. That to me is sickening, undermining humanity's ability to critically think for themselves.
2. Morality must be absolute and have a source.
If this were the case, and 'true morality' is 'written' across all human hearts, why is there is so much disagreement? Sure, most popular religions will love to point to a form of sin and falling away from the creator as the true cause. However, I don't think that is remotely an adequate answer. To assume such would mean first proving the existence of such a creator and why the care about "sin". While I believe natural materials and laws are just well... natural and self evident without a cause, I can't completely disregard the possibility of some powerful being who made us. The nature of such a powerful being is always up to debate, and my own observations of reality would sway me to believe this being doesn't care about us after they made us. That we're just something to observe like some bored kid making toysets in the cosmic bedroom. Still, this is all just my opinion in the end.
Anyway, the bigger problem of this stance is the definition of morality. Religious morality is rather cherry picked, with a boatload of excuses to ignore or undermine what their deity commanded in the past. One of the biggest exampels I can think of is rules for slavery and how to conquer surrounding nations. I think secular morality has a better system to measure if something contributes to the wellbeing of any living thing you wish to examine. From such, we can determine things that are more helpful than others with repeated experiments and results. Does this improve wellbeing or not? That's just part of the growing pains of any society, and we can't be afraid to explore alternatives as we evolve. However, religion typically does not want to budge from its rules, claiming they have all the answers. If something doesn't comply with their holy texts, unfortunately that ends all discussion with them. Because then the burden is placed on atheists to discredit the text enough to at least get such people to listen to our arguments. Honestly, a lot of me believes that such theists choose to worship a book and authority in their faith over trust themselves to critically think. This is quite consistent with a cult driven society, and its sad to see people make countless mental gynmastics to support an inconsistent God figure.
3. Positive human emotions have no basis without a God. There's nothing stopping you from wanting to bring the world to ruin by acting in completely your own self interest
This is just a sad attempt for religious individuals to claim ownership abstract things that we all cherish. Things like love, trust, community, and passion. Religion has claimed that the reason we're able to have strong families, societies, and good times is because of what God has done. However, that is further from the truth, as many demonstrable societies have existed without such figures demanding things from them. Humanity is a social species, and for the sake of our own survival, getting along is part of the process. It would be very convinient for these religions to point to group of people and have them be demonstrably miserable for their claim to hold water. That is why a lot of them engage in missionary trips around the world to 'help' struggling societies while converting them at the same. I personally cannot stand such trips, as such efforts to convert others could put the lives of these people in more jeopardy than before they arrived. Sure, that would be dismissed by such people since they value the unprovable "eternal fate" over one's soul versus their wellbeing in the current day. But that's a gamble to me, and one that people should not be put through.
As far as acting in your own self interest, that's not always a bad thing. Again, this is just as symptom of basic black/white thinking that is common in religions. If society is pressuring you into doing things that make you geniually unhappy, why continue to conform? You can't help increase the wellbeing of others if you're killing yourself internally from such social pressures. This is why I get pissed off when certain religious structures demand married couples stay together even if things break apart later on. Divorce is a wonderful invention that values the individual and personal responsibility to seek another bond. Some kids might be happier in that instance, some are clearly not. But it can be used as a learning experience for the next generation. I try to see the positivity in all things. And maintaining one's autonomy is one of the things I value the most in life.
4. Atheists seek to destroy every religious population they come across because they are an agent of evil
And this right here is classic fear mongering. Typically, it's actually the religious majority that seek power to wipe out such an unbelieving crowd via establishing a theocracy. They are the ones that advocate that true peace is obtained once their deity swoops on down to cause armageddon, destroys all false believers, and then rescues the rest like some chosen population. If an theist wants to paint their opposition as such, that is such a hard thing to go around. Criticizing a worldview does not advocate for the destruction of it. Of course, PERSONALLY I'd like to see secular humanism become the governing world view as that has the most room growth. But I know religion provides comfort to countless and helps them lead better lives. Still, it is important to question why we believe what we believe. Even scientific papers and pursuits need to be carefully examined before being convinced by them.
Anyway, that's it for now. Thanks for continuing to listen to my thought dumps and supporting everything that I am. I have been much happier without the presence of religion in my life, and I don't want to hear that I'm lying to myself. Because none of you know what's in my own heart. I choose to act for the interests of myself and those I care about. I hope my gaming streams and online presence here can bring joy to others. My own legacy is something I always think about, yeah. But I rather work towards it on my own terms instead of living up to expectations set by any group or individual.
Love you all. Keep those minds thinking critically!
