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It's not wrong for artists to want feedback
3 years ago
General
Earlier today I ran across a tweet from several months back which was oh so not accidentally RT'd by a bud of mine. In the tweet, there's a screenshot of somebody rambling on about how "creators who need to hear this - you have no idea how many people lurk on your work, no idea how many times they revisit your work. Some fans are just shy about engaging but even if you're not getting anything, don't be discouraged!"
This was very appropriately addressed by an apparent background artist for Helluva Boss:
Passively enjoying media is a quick way to get it discontinued. Creators can’t rely on the possibility that maybe there’s quiet lurkers if those don’t engage and prove the work is actually doing something for them. If there’s little to no feedback, things disappear.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
But why don't I take a crack at it, anyway?
You see if you've ever been an artist, ever attempted to do something creative, and ever been disappointed by the lack of engagement it's received, you've probably heard this bit of non-advice from somebody who has no idea what they're talking about:
"Just do it for you!"
SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING DUMBFUCK YOU DON'T KNOW FUCK ABOUT FUCK.
Anybody who says this to you doesn't know what the fuck art is or why it's created. Is it flawed to make art and judge it solely on popularity? Of course, but art is self-expression, it's the creation of an idea which for better or worse, means something to you, and any artist taking it at all seriously want to know if it means something to somebody else. Has the messaging succeeded? Have they tapped into the emotions in you that it did (or was supposed to) in them? THIS is what artists, particularly long-time artists are looking for. Some might be looking for simple praise, and it's okay to want that too, but for me, I don't need you to say "THIS IS AMAZING!!!" or "So hot" or whatever, that tells me nothing for the most part, I'm looking for how it affected you, specifically. Even if it's just porn and it's just 'this is the part that made be horny' hey, that's relevant information, especially given all the decision making that goes into making that shit.
And on that topic, if you at all pay attention to what I say around here then you know how often I lament the lack of reaction to SFW art. Frankly people are also content to just fave or lurk porn without engagement of any kind but its odds of getting something are dramatically higher. And I'll make a journal post or rant in a description about that.
And what happens? What happens nearly every single time?
Somebody comes along, often the same somebody or two and says: I like/prefer your clean work, actually.
Well, you coulda fuckin' fooled me because you only ever make an appearance on these fucking posts to play contrarian, you know what would have been really helpful? SAYING SOMETHING ON THE CLEAN ART YOU SUPPOSEDLY PREFER CRAZY I KNOW.
I don't know what you people think it's like being (or in my case, attempting to be) an artist is but based on the low key resentment so many have, you seem to think it's just waking up one day, drawing something neat and thinking "Gee, I'm so glad to have this skill so I can draw anything I want, anytime! Life is grand!" Do you think it's fun? Because me assure it - it almost never is. It's a curious phenomenon that's been the topic of many memes and jokes online, the plight of the artist and their ever torturous psyche over their own work. You've seen the comic.
"I love this drawing! ...I hate this drawing!"
When you tell somebody "do it because you love it" first of all, again, fuck off and die, but second, while the act of creating might be cathartic, artists rarely look at the finished product and think "That's great, I love this, so glad I did that." In fact they're overwhelmed with doubt, seeing all their little errors. You, the consumer, see it for what it is, all at once. We see every little mistake and imperfection, we see a bunch of incoherent scribbles, and pine for what could have been.
That's where you come in.
When you post art and nobody engages with it, nobody says they like it, whether or not they do, you default back to thinking, yep, my first instinct was correct, that was crap. Or, worse, if you did have a rare feeling of pride for what you've put together, you're crushed when nobody seems to find it any more special than all the other stuff you thought less of and if you're anything like me you take that lesson to heart - never be proud of anything.
"But that shouldn't matter, just draw because you love it!"
Die. And that's exactly what I fucking did. I drew, because I like to draw, because I like to try and scribble out an idea or a concept that I hope takes root in the mind of someone else. When you opt to just sit in the background only taking but never giving, you're robbing me, and other artists, of that final step. Did we draw it for ourselves? Absolutely. But we also drew it for you to see it and perhaps gain a greater understanding of ourselves, what's important to us, what our vision of a given idea is, and if that's worth anything.
Artists like myself are asking so absurdly little of you. That if you like what you see, if it makes you happy, entertains you, titillates you, you just say something to that effect. It's an incredibly one-sided transaction. In exchange for completely free content which, if you're a watcher/lurker probably consistently entertains you, we merely ask to know a little about why. And when you can't even do that, when that is asking literally too much, some artists, like myself, will begin to grow resentful. First toward ourselves for apparently being unable to create anything which convinces you to perform the laughably simple task of sharing a reaction, but also because we've given you untold hours and gigabytes of entertainment for free and your attitude seems to be "I should get this for literally nothing, even occasional feedback is far too much for me to do."
This is especially true if you're an artist who is outspoken about this as I am. By now, anyone paying the least amount of attention knows that I'm looking for reaction over faves or more often, nothing at all. You know this, you show up long enough to say "Well I dunno what to say" and you go back to doing nothing. So little was asked of you but it's too much because you're just here for the free content, you don't want to support the content by encouraging its continued existence, you just want to consume it until it's gone and then move on to whatever else.
"I don't know what to say..."
What went through your mind when you hit that fave button, hit that watch button? Have you noticed how many artists ask you what item of theirs garnered the watch? BECAUSE THE WATCH ALONE TELLS THEM NOTHING. Whether they're trying to figure what's considered to be their best work or tailor their content to reach a broader audience and succeed financially, it's of the utmost importance that they know what creative work of theirs is succeeding with people. And what do they do with this information? They make more art for you to enjoy.
And for you to sit there, and do nothing, and defend doing nothing as "Oh well I-I don't know what to say, m-my anxiety..." is fucking bogus. Oh, you have anxiety? Try bearing your goddamn soul in graphite or text for the entire world to criticize while those who do like it sit in their dark little corner too fucking chicken shit to say "I like this character because ___." Think about that for a moment, so many of you are fucking paralyzed at the thought of saying that you like the art that you like. You have the easiest fucking role in this entire operation and you just can't fucking be bothered.
And what does it get you? Sure, maybe the artist will get popular despite this, maybe they'll be profitable and keep on going. Or maybe they won't, maybe they figure well, guess this isn't working, give up, move on. If they're like me, they actively avoid giving you what you want on the grounds of "honestly, fuck you." Despite the fact that nobody other than friends could be bothered to weigh in on it, I'm still considering launching that Patreon but this time it's not due to an effort to make money to live off of which, frankly, was always gonna be a bust, no, it's because I legitimately don't want to give you the content I know you want. I feel like I'm failing myself in giving it to people who can't even rise to the absolutely bare minimum of support, and my thought process is "Well, I tried to give it to you for free, asking only for some indication as to why you're enjoying this supply of free content, but even that was too much, you were too entitled to my work to even do that for me, the one thing in the world I asked for in return, COULDN'T EVEN DO IT WHEN I ASKED FOR IT AS A BIRTHDAY WISH A FEW YEARS BACK so now, fuck it, you should pay. That's where I'm at. Let's call it what it is, most of you watched me for the porn, many of you for the niche interest in rape porn, and what as your "I don't know what to saaaaaaaaay" crap gotten you? Massive, massive, massive rollback on how often this stuff gets posted. You know I put a lot of work in trying to express that kink in a way that's different, more palatable, more enjoyable, eschewing much of the usual chauvinism and cruelty and presenting it in a way that can be enjoyed even by the most squeamish, so much thought goes into body language, facial expressions, dialogue, setting, personalities positions, bodies, everything to show off my vision for that that very specific pervy thing you all like can be, and all that ever happens is that I come out of it feeling like I could have done none of it, I could have just drawn yet another jock wolf making that narrow-eyed douchey-grin face while filming with his smartphone saying shit like "shut up slut, this is gettin' good" or that also absolutely gutter trash you guys have worked so tirelessly to entrench into this contrived, boring fandom. Would you even notice if I just did that instead? I honestly don't know! Because you don't even seem to notice when I put in writing, I will block lurkers! There are lurkers who I have told this to, and blocked, and they still watch me! There is absolutely no reliably evidence of mental stimulation on your end.
And you tell me "Why does this bother you so much, seems like a waste of energy?"
Simple, because I'm doing all the work. It's a ludicrously unfair setup and it would still be stacked heavily in your favor even if you were making an effort to engage and support. I've been working on a huge animation project for a long time, biggest I've ever done, will likely break 1000 frames, not even confident if I'll be able to upload it, and I'm just sitting here like...do I even want to do that? Provide that caliber of free entertainment for people who just can't be fucking bothered? Yeah, sure, you'd probably have words for the animation itself, since those are basically the nuclear option, of all the artistic mediums around here they require the least imagination and thus the least amount of work for you to enjoy so of course you love the shit out of them. You know why you put something together like that? Because you're eager to see how people will like it, eager to see if the bells and whistles and ideas you put in there will hit them the way you hoped it would, even if you 'do it for yourself' it's crafted from the ground up to make a positive impact on the consumers, it's tailor made to entertain them, make them happy, make them want to see more.
And the one ask in return from me and other artists is for you confirm that for us.
And so often, you don't.
Because you're the fucking dick. Not the guy giving you free stuff.
This was very appropriately addressed by an apparent background artist for Helluva Boss:
Passively enjoying media is a quick way to get it discontinued. Creators can’t rely on the possibility that maybe there’s quiet lurkers if those don’t engage and prove the work is actually doing something for them. If there’s little to no feedback, things disappear.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
But why don't I take a crack at it, anyway?
You see if you've ever been an artist, ever attempted to do something creative, and ever been disappointed by the lack of engagement it's received, you've probably heard this bit of non-advice from somebody who has no idea what they're talking about:
"Just do it for you!"
SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING DUMBFUCK YOU DON'T KNOW FUCK ABOUT FUCK.
Anybody who says this to you doesn't know what the fuck art is or why it's created. Is it flawed to make art and judge it solely on popularity? Of course, but art is self-expression, it's the creation of an idea which for better or worse, means something to you, and any artist taking it at all seriously want to know if it means something to somebody else. Has the messaging succeeded? Have they tapped into the emotions in you that it did (or was supposed to) in them? THIS is what artists, particularly long-time artists are looking for. Some might be looking for simple praise, and it's okay to want that too, but for me, I don't need you to say "THIS IS AMAZING!!!" or "So hot" or whatever, that tells me nothing for the most part, I'm looking for how it affected you, specifically. Even if it's just porn and it's just 'this is the part that made be horny' hey, that's relevant information, especially given all the decision making that goes into making that shit.
And on that topic, if you at all pay attention to what I say around here then you know how often I lament the lack of reaction to SFW art. Frankly people are also content to just fave or lurk porn without engagement of any kind but its odds of getting something are dramatically higher. And I'll make a journal post or rant in a description about that.
And what happens? What happens nearly every single time?
Somebody comes along, often the same somebody or two and says: I like/prefer your clean work, actually.
Well, you coulda fuckin' fooled me because you only ever make an appearance on these fucking posts to play contrarian, you know what would have been really helpful? SAYING SOMETHING ON THE CLEAN ART YOU SUPPOSEDLY PREFER CRAZY I KNOW.
I don't know what you people think it's like being (or in my case, attempting to be) an artist is but based on the low key resentment so many have, you seem to think it's just waking up one day, drawing something neat and thinking "Gee, I'm so glad to have this skill so I can draw anything I want, anytime! Life is grand!" Do you think it's fun? Because me assure it - it almost never is. It's a curious phenomenon that's been the topic of many memes and jokes online, the plight of the artist and their ever torturous psyche over their own work. You've seen the comic.
"I love this drawing! ...I hate this drawing!"
When you tell somebody "do it because you love it" first of all, again, fuck off and die, but second, while the act of creating might be cathartic, artists rarely look at the finished product and think "That's great, I love this, so glad I did that." In fact they're overwhelmed with doubt, seeing all their little errors. You, the consumer, see it for what it is, all at once. We see every little mistake and imperfection, we see a bunch of incoherent scribbles, and pine for what could have been.
That's where you come in.
When you post art and nobody engages with it, nobody says they like it, whether or not they do, you default back to thinking, yep, my first instinct was correct, that was crap. Or, worse, if you did have a rare feeling of pride for what you've put together, you're crushed when nobody seems to find it any more special than all the other stuff you thought less of and if you're anything like me you take that lesson to heart - never be proud of anything.
"But that shouldn't matter, just draw because you love it!"
Die. And that's exactly what I fucking did. I drew, because I like to draw, because I like to try and scribble out an idea or a concept that I hope takes root in the mind of someone else. When you opt to just sit in the background only taking but never giving, you're robbing me, and other artists, of that final step. Did we draw it for ourselves? Absolutely. But we also drew it for you to see it and perhaps gain a greater understanding of ourselves, what's important to us, what our vision of a given idea is, and if that's worth anything.
Artists like myself are asking so absurdly little of you. That if you like what you see, if it makes you happy, entertains you, titillates you, you just say something to that effect. It's an incredibly one-sided transaction. In exchange for completely free content which, if you're a watcher/lurker probably consistently entertains you, we merely ask to know a little about why. And when you can't even do that, when that is asking literally too much, some artists, like myself, will begin to grow resentful. First toward ourselves for apparently being unable to create anything which convinces you to perform the laughably simple task of sharing a reaction, but also because we've given you untold hours and gigabytes of entertainment for free and your attitude seems to be "I should get this for literally nothing, even occasional feedback is far too much for me to do."
This is especially true if you're an artist who is outspoken about this as I am. By now, anyone paying the least amount of attention knows that I'm looking for reaction over faves or more often, nothing at all. You know this, you show up long enough to say "Well I dunno what to say" and you go back to doing nothing. So little was asked of you but it's too much because you're just here for the free content, you don't want to support the content by encouraging its continued existence, you just want to consume it until it's gone and then move on to whatever else.
"I don't know what to say..."
What went through your mind when you hit that fave button, hit that watch button? Have you noticed how many artists ask you what item of theirs garnered the watch? BECAUSE THE WATCH ALONE TELLS THEM NOTHING. Whether they're trying to figure what's considered to be their best work or tailor their content to reach a broader audience and succeed financially, it's of the utmost importance that they know what creative work of theirs is succeeding with people. And what do they do with this information? They make more art for you to enjoy.
And for you to sit there, and do nothing, and defend doing nothing as "Oh well I-I don't know what to say, m-my anxiety..." is fucking bogus. Oh, you have anxiety? Try bearing your goddamn soul in graphite or text for the entire world to criticize while those who do like it sit in their dark little corner too fucking chicken shit to say "I like this character because ___." Think about that for a moment, so many of you are fucking paralyzed at the thought of saying that you like the art that you like. You have the easiest fucking role in this entire operation and you just can't fucking be bothered.
And what does it get you? Sure, maybe the artist will get popular despite this, maybe they'll be profitable and keep on going. Or maybe they won't, maybe they figure well, guess this isn't working, give up, move on. If they're like me, they actively avoid giving you what you want on the grounds of "honestly, fuck you." Despite the fact that nobody other than friends could be bothered to weigh in on it, I'm still considering launching that Patreon but this time it's not due to an effort to make money to live off of which, frankly, was always gonna be a bust, no, it's because I legitimately don't want to give you the content I know you want. I feel like I'm failing myself in giving it to people who can't even rise to the absolutely bare minimum of support, and my thought process is "Well, I tried to give it to you for free, asking only for some indication as to why you're enjoying this supply of free content, but even that was too much, you were too entitled to my work to even do that for me, the one thing in the world I asked for in return, COULDN'T EVEN DO IT WHEN I ASKED FOR IT AS A BIRTHDAY WISH A FEW YEARS BACK so now, fuck it, you should pay. That's where I'm at. Let's call it what it is, most of you watched me for the porn, many of you for the niche interest in rape porn, and what as your "I don't know what to saaaaaaaaay" crap gotten you? Massive, massive, massive rollback on how often this stuff gets posted. You know I put a lot of work in trying to express that kink in a way that's different, more palatable, more enjoyable, eschewing much of the usual chauvinism and cruelty and presenting it in a way that can be enjoyed even by the most squeamish, so much thought goes into body language, facial expressions, dialogue, setting, personalities positions, bodies, everything to show off my vision for that that very specific pervy thing you all like can be, and all that ever happens is that I come out of it feeling like I could have done none of it, I could have just drawn yet another jock wolf making that narrow-eyed douchey-grin face while filming with his smartphone saying shit like "shut up slut, this is gettin' good" or that also absolutely gutter trash you guys have worked so tirelessly to entrench into this contrived, boring fandom. Would you even notice if I just did that instead? I honestly don't know! Because you don't even seem to notice when I put in writing, I will block lurkers! There are lurkers who I have told this to, and blocked, and they still watch me! There is absolutely no reliably evidence of mental stimulation on your end.
And you tell me "Why does this bother you so much, seems like a waste of energy?"
Simple, because I'm doing all the work. It's a ludicrously unfair setup and it would still be stacked heavily in your favor even if you were making an effort to engage and support. I've been working on a huge animation project for a long time, biggest I've ever done, will likely break 1000 frames, not even confident if I'll be able to upload it, and I'm just sitting here like...do I even want to do that? Provide that caliber of free entertainment for people who just can't be fucking bothered? Yeah, sure, you'd probably have words for the animation itself, since those are basically the nuclear option, of all the artistic mediums around here they require the least imagination and thus the least amount of work for you to enjoy so of course you love the shit out of them. You know why you put something together like that? Because you're eager to see how people will like it, eager to see if the bells and whistles and ideas you put in there will hit them the way you hoped it would, even if you 'do it for yourself' it's crafted from the ground up to make a positive impact on the consumers, it's tailor made to entertain them, make them happy, make them want to see more.
And the one ask in return from me and other artists is for you confirm that for us.
And so often, you don't.
Because you're the fucking dick. Not the guy giving you free stuff.
Sorry that you still don’t much engagement on here/other platforms. Not really sure what else you could try (and frankly think you’ve probably tried everything I could suggest anyway)…
But I never said anything. At the time it was at least partially because I didn't have an e621 account. I still don't. But I also didn't say anything because I was outright terrified of being noticed by other people who enjoyed the kink for very different reasons than I was and desperately did not want that interaction. But when I noticed you had a FA and watched you, funnily enough, the lack of engagement on here made me braver. I started responding to your journals and the dam broke so to say. Someday, I will go back through all your work and comment on every single one. Dredge up all those memories of when I first saw them and how they made me feel. I just hope you won't feel like it's too late, or phoned in.
And you are right to avoid an e621 account. If I didn't know better, I'd swear its userbase thought they were people.
Anyway, I wouldn't pressure you to do all that retroactive reacting. If you decide you must, it wouldn't feel phoned in. The worst part would be me simply having to look at that old crap again. I'd have to reach the comments while shielding my eyes from the art itself.
On the one hand, I get where you're coming from on this. Even if I don't have any meaningful content here, I've got loads of it other places, and there have been plenty of times over the years when a little acknowledgement and maybe a comment or two on the work I'd posted would have been nice, but as you've pointed out numerous times yourself, all too often that's too much to ask.
At the same time, I've got what I think is a good reason for why I've fallen into the bad habit of not interacting as much as I maybe should. I'm not much for leaving comments on things simply for the sake of leaving comments on things, simply because it seems to me that leaving a comment that doesn't actually say anything is, at best, only slightly better than not leaving a comment at all. I don't want to do something to somebody else that I'd rather not have them do to me
Basically, I understand the frustration completely even if my own way of thinking is that no engagement beats meaningless engagement.