As someone who's primarily a watcher my personal opinion is I don't think you've done anything wrong. I'm a huge fan of TF in all flavours, including the darker, more dubious, more taboo. I subscribed to Snake for a while on subscribestar because I really liked his particular brand of dark TF. But there is a big difference between dark twisted art and art that glorifies real world harm. The furry TF fandom has a no tolerance policy for sexualizing children, it's a place where most of us draw the line, and I think that's for good reason. Like the fact that sexual exploitation of kids and grooming is a very serious problem in these parts of the internet. A lot of furries have had bad experiences or know someone who has had bad experiences.

I personally don't think that someone's a bad person just for making porn with incest or feral sex in it. If I read a dark story where two brothers TF into a bull and cow and lose all sapience and have sex I don't see that as glorifying or normalizing incest, I see it as the author using the broken taboo of incest to show how far gone their minds are, and I have a hard time imagining how that story can cause real world harm. TF art's obsession with feral sex as a catalyst or result of a transformation comes across similarly to me, it's generally depicted in a way where the focus is on the TF and the consequences of the TF, or at the very least abstracted in a way that pulls away from the idea of imposing yourself on an animal unable to consent.

But there *are* practicing zoophiles on this site, there *are* people who are into depictions of post-TF feral sex because they want to have sex with animals irl, and it makes me very uncomfortable to think about how I might be participating in a culture that normalizes that. That's why I am very thankful for conversations like this, and seeing people air their thoughts on where their comfort zones are or going back to update/delete works when they no longer live up to their standards. This is a weird, awkward fandom that's constantly developing and figuring itself out, and conversations like this are one of the things that might help guide the direction of the fandom - hopefully somewhere healthier.

I might be wrong but I feel there has been a gradual shift towards wholesome happier TF, compared to the darker more mean-spirited stuff I saw a decade ago. I see a lot more positivity, intentional changes, gender euphoria. And fewer "cheating wife gets punished by turning into a horny dog" plots. Not that I'm against those, I do like dark TFs as mentioned, but there has definitely been a more general vibe shift across the board imo. And the average TF fan's tolerance for underage people has also changed. It was more normalized before, less normalized now. And the reaction to bubbeh's comic shows that we as a fandom do not vibe with that stuff, generally speaking. Our priorities have shifted.

I have seen bubbeh's comic, and the way it depicted kids absolutely rubbed me the wrong way. There are ways to play on taboos, or amp up the darkness, that do not involve depicting children in the way they were depicted. I can see how it would attract someone I do not want to rub shoulders with, and how it might be used in a harmful consequence. I think bubbeh made the right choice in deleting it, and that the fandom made the right choice in voicing their disapproval.

There's probably a long overdue conversation to be had about how we as a fandom depict feral sex and incest and other taboos, and how we might go forward to create a healthier fandom. My personal stance is that I can accept Snake's work, but not that particular bubbeh comic. When I see Snake's comics I see a large body of work with a focus on darkness where immoral elements are depicted and employed in a way that amplifies the darkness, and there is a consistent tone that establishes the lens you can use to view the work through. That's not what I saw in bubbeh's comic, the sexual elements were disjointed from the tone of the comic. It was artwork involving kids turning into animals against their will, that's dark, sure. But how does a closeup on a kid'd mid-tf bits in a typical horny TF fashion make that story any darker? I'm not buying that. I really don't think we should be doing that. It's a particular kind of tastelessness that worries me.

But as painful as it is I do think it's healthy to take that comparison seriously and reconsider where you place your morals. If you regret works you've done it is very fair to distance yourself from the things you no longer want to associate with. It's fair to have a comfort zone, and also fair to update that comfort zone over time, and to make sure you don't get too lost in the TF sauce and do stuff you regret. People change. And hopefully people should be able to accept that change, this is TF after all! :D

Anyway uhhh that was a very big ramble I'm sorry. In short I think you're cool and I think the darkness comparison to Snake was unfair.

Thank you very much, sorry its a bit to much for me to respond to all of this in the way I would like to, I would probably have to write a full essay to get across my conflicting feelings on this community, its evolution over time and both it and my own both positive and negative relationship with gender/trans issues/feminism/est over the time I have been part of it. I mean... I'd LIKE to write that essay or... Something eventually, but its allot.

SUPER short and reductive version: I think this community IS very healthy MOSTLY, but it WAS not that long ago allot more toxic and kinda fucked up in allot of ways that have still left lingering marks and things like 'a guy turns into a woman and AUTOMATICALLY becomes submissive and horny and INSTANTLY he starts using she/her and is considered female in every way that counts the SECOND her dick is gone, even if she still self identifies as a man' clash hard with the more trans affirming and generally welcoming and respectful nature of the TFTG space over all. Not that makes the community BAD, far from it, it is, even by furry standards, one of the most trans affirming and lovely spaces around... But ya its complicated.

But ya I... I donno. I feel bad and I feel very conflicted about some of the work I have done, do in no small part to seeing just how fast someone can slip over the line from, "questionable feral stuff" to "full mask off creep". But... On the other hand I DO trust Snake, I think he's a good guy and the two of us have had talks in the past about where the lines SHOULD be and while he's... More willing to go REAL dark then I am, I respect that he is generally pretty thoughtful about what he draws most of the time. He talks to me when he's not sure if something will be to far over the line or when he's not sure if his unfamiliarity with American culture might cause offense. (For one example someone wanted to do something with a black man, implying he was flaky and a bad father and Snake asked, "Is this a negative stereotype?" And I told him it was probably going to come off as a bit offensive and that was it, he changed it immediately without argument.) So... I don't think he'd ever do anything like that, but I DO worry about myself that I am still willing to write stories and comics that personally make me uncomfortable because I am being paid or just have been asked to really nicely and I don't want to let folks down. Like... At what point does, "Can you write me this story that makes you uncomfortable because its really dark and taboo?" Become, "Can you write me this story that makes you uncomfortable because its WRONG?" And if that where to happen... Would I still say no? I hope so, but I am... I worry and I don't ever want to just assume that I'll always do the right thing because I know my compulsive need to please can push me into ignoring my own better sense sometimes.

Anyway... I guess all of that is just to say that I don't think what I have done with Snake or in my older work is as bad as what that comic had in it, but I think allot of members of this community are starting to really ask themselves what they are and are not willing to just let slide because, "Hey its fine, its just a trope of the genera/kink." And for me, that doesn't just mean as a reader/watcher, but as a creator, especially one who pushes allot of boundaries. Despite what allot of edgy comedians will tell you, pushing boundaries doesn't make you a heroic free speech warrior, it makes you a minesweeper, constantly on high alert trying to make sure you don't blow your legs off or leave someone else to get hurt... I mean IF you give a shit about other people, if your just an asshole, then its just about throwing mines all over the place and then laughing when people explode, but you know, I'd really rather NOT be that kind of heartless prick.

Blah... Heh so ya that's the short version, I am sure you can see why trying to get across my feelings in depth on all of this would probably end up being longer then most of my stories.

And thank you, genuinely this is one of the best write ups I have seen on this subject and I am both impressed and touched that you wrote this here! Thank you very much!

Hell yeah! The trans affirming part of the TF fandom is seriously beautiful, and it makes me so happy that it was able to flourish.

I also wanna highlight this bit in particular

> I think allot of members of this community are starting to really ask themselves what they are and are not willing to just let slide

Because I super agree and I think this is a really good sign. I feel like the fandom is entering a sort of introspective moment where we're taking time to think about what we want to support and what we don't want to support. I'm hopeful that we'll continue to grow and evolve as a fandom, even though it means occasional growing pains and controversies. And we'll all grow as people too, with regrets and changed priorities. TF has fucked me up in ways, but it has also massively helped me. And I think the current incarnation of the TF fandom the way it is today can be a good influence. Especially with people like you and Snake in it, who care about the impact you have on the fandom. :D

Genuinely so happy to hear all of this from you! I think, if folks like you are at all representative of our community, we will be just fine!

I think you two said everything that needed to be said. I would comment something, but there's nothing else to add but say: dark themes can be perceived very differently from things that are clearly problematic. I don't like a lot of Snake's stuff, however I don't think exploring the darker aspects of TF is wrong, unless it's something that actively promotes harmful ideas (i.e. child explotation, glamurization of zoophilia, total degradation of womanhood, things like that). If you actively question yourself on what you do, you're miles away from being a bad person. People who don't give a fuck and label anything that is criticizes as "mere drama" are not the same thing as you or anyone else who wants to have a discussion. If anyone feels they need to change something they do after what happened, it's their choice, but don't beat yourself and never be afraid to talk to people. In my eyes, you both are right and deserve love.

Thank you, I am still struggling with allot of this, but the thoughtful comments from so many people have really helped me process all of this madness.

I haven't read much of your work, I think I gave you a follow over a comm pitch that didn't work out? I don't remember. But if I can speak on some of the stuff you said, obviously CP is horrifying and no one should be doing anything with it, that's correct. Not even going to discuss that.

As for your concerns about writing darker things sometimes, does that really matter? Art in general is about conveying feelings, and lots of people use it as an outlet. Whether you want to write dark things or light things or whatever else, I don't think it really matters as long as you're okay with it and it's not breaking any laws. A person's state of mind fluctuates, people change over time, there's nothing wrong with liking things at one point and not liking them later, or the other way around. There's very few people out there that can actually look at the works they made 10 years ago and not cringe. If it makes you feel better now doing something (or whoever commed it from you, since they're the ones wanting it) then I don't see how that can be bad. There's gallons and gallons of sonic fanfics out there that I'll never read, but it made someone happy to write them, and maybe even someone else happy to read them.

I seem to recall that yes.

And I understand your position and to a degree I do agree, though I think its... I think its doing art a disservice by saying it has no effect on people and cannot have a real world impact. Like sure, my story about a magical dragon turning two guys into sea dragons ISN'T going to fundamentally bring society crashing down or lead us forward into a golden age, but if, say, a TON of stories and art and the like all push the idea that, "If someone says no, but you can make them feel good, they will come around and fall in love with you." Then that can have a genuinely negative impact on society. One story is VERY unlikely to change someones mind, but a community wide or culturally wide set of assumptions can do allot of good OR harm by effectively pushing the 'overton window' for what that community or culture views as right and wrong.

On the one hand, allot of trans affirming stuff in the furry community and TF and TG especially makes it more and more likely that young people getting into the fandom will have a much more positive view on trans people then the wider culture. They have engaged with a community or even just with fiction that hammers home the idea that being trans is okay and that being cruel to trans people makes you an asshole. And because of that, allot of older TG stories that went hard into throwing out trans slurs and leaned heavily into the idea that being made feminine was like, THE ULTIMATE punishment for a man, unironically and not just as an ironic punishment for overly mocho meat heads, has become... Well kinda cringe. Some people still post work like that, but its way less common then it used to be and the most popular TFTG artist tend to be the ones who are either wholesome or comedic or at the very least mix it up between genuinely dark stuff and more affirming pieces.

(Seriously, back in the day a big time TG caption writer went on a big rant about how much he wished he could beat his wife and how women having the vote ruined the world and got like... A TON of support and love from the community and I cannot imagine that happening today, not from the wider community at least.)

But on the other hand you have stuff like the example I gave above, where the very wide spread trope in movies, books, TV and ya porn all going, "Hey if a girl says she doesn't want it, just keep going and she'll come around!" Helped to normalize, well... Rape Culture. The depressingly wide spread notion that consent basically was just someone not fighting back and that taking advantage of people who where drunk or had been manipulated or pressured, est. Was fine because as long as they said 'yes' at some point, in some way, your in the clear. And that had a legitimately horrific human cost and while blaming media for it isn't wholly fair... Media DID have an impact on it and it wasn't a positive one.

How you do art and what you say alongside it should always be taken in consideration. If I had a nickel for TFTG fans/artists that dislike women and/or trans/nb individuals, I unfortanely would probably be able to buy a PS4. However, most of it goes deeper than fetishes or porn, it is rooted in our society. Hipocrisy can exist because a lot of people like to think their real world views and actions doesn't need to be translated in their "after dark life". And that's why talks like this are always important.

That's pretty much exactly what I'm trying to get at with allot of this. The thing that bothers me isn't so much that people will judge me, I mean I'm not immune to social pressure, but its more A. Will this hurt someone and B. Am I allowing my own biases to push me towards being more understanding and accepting of dark/fucked up stuff and if so, what does that say about my underlying biases?

As I said in another comment, I think the TG community is moving in a much, much more healthy direction then when I first came into it, but their is still plenty of just... Unaddressed assumptions about ALLOT of things that I myself have fall into from time to time. Treating being a woman as fundamentally different in some innate way then being a man. Acting like having a dick is the solo determiner of manhood (to the point where your pronouns change the second its gone), treating women as more submissive and nurchering by default and by a pretty wide margin and getting kinda controversial here, but acting like the SECOND a sperm meets an egg the woman is pregnant AND any change to their body would be 'destroying a life' and that not only does that mean they cannot turn back now, but they are locked into womanhood basically forever because they also have to be a mother to the child, because a child NEEDS a mother and a mother MUST devote their life to their child... Like Jesus, I know its just cus 'preggers = TG lock' is a nice and easy way of letting people know the TF is permanent right away the second the person has sex, but like that is some WILD 'trad wife' BS! 'Taking a morning after pill is murder and a child needs a mother, no single fathers or gay couples allowed' is a HELL of a position for the, I would imagine, majority at least somewhat progressive TG community to just nod along with and go, "Ya that works."

I don't think that stuff is NECESSARILY dangerous, I don't think being a TG fan who rolls with that idea instantly means your going to start holding ultra conservative, hard black and white views on issues of maternity and the role of men and women, marriage and gender identity, but... Its worth taking time to consider because if someone is already somewhat on the fence or already has these kinds of opinions, being constantly bombarded with comics and stories like these can absolutely sway them, just as all the trans affirming stuff can push them the other direction.

But... Well I'm bias. I'm one of those spooky lefty, feminist, transfem NBs who loves choice and can't help injecting 'politics' into video games I work on so obviously I think about this stuff more then most people do or possibly should.

Nothing wrong with being that kind of person, it is very honorable in my eyes, at least. And yeah, I hate seeing that TFs that end with becoming a woman try to play on stereotypes. What about just enjoying it? Or at least trying to explore a new sexual of yours now that how have a new body, just like regular TF does?

Thank you.
But ya its... That's happening more now which is great! But ya their is some lingering stuff that just feels... Weird.

Oh wow I hadn't even thought about how the "preg = TG lock" trope fits into conservativism. This has given me things to think about. I think it's good that you talk about this, it's important insight!

Ya that's something I've struggled with for awhile cus like... Preg is a HUGE fetish of mine ALSO a huge gender euphoria thing, I would love to have a kid, that would make me very happy and be really gender affirming and great, BUT... The way its presented allot of the time is like:

Guy TGs into girl
Girl has sex with a guy
Girl tries to change back, but cannot
Checking the spell book, "This magic cannot be used to cause harm. Turning back would kill the life you have created, thus your locked in now!" And also like, default assumption tends to be, 'There for ALSO your going to be a woman for at least 18 years now so as not to leave your child without a mother.'

And like... If you actually think about it for more then a second its like, WOW that is some HARDCORE 'morning after pills = baby murder' and 'Adoption is amoral, you MUST be a good and present mother till the kids AT LEAST a legal adult' far right nonsense! Like not even just normal conservatism or pro-life stuff, that's like... An old school religious laws kind of hard line stance that is just taken as fundamental truth for the sake of the magic 'detecting life' and thus FtM TGs being impossible for a woman within the first SECOND of impregnation!

Again again again NOT saying using this trope makes you a fundamentalist, I've used it myself, its a SUPER easy way of justifying a more or less perma lock, it lets you confirm a preg ending without needing to have the characters pee on a stick or seeing a doctor, it gives the story a nice satisfying BAM ending and (again falling into some other kinda questionable ideas) its generally seen as a decently happy ending for the main character trapped in a possibly distressing situation to at least get a baby out of it and maybe whoever the baby daddy was as a partner... The heterosexual 'babies ever after' dream come true! But... Ya its a fucking weird one that has ALLOT of super strange implications that probably should be unpacked eventually.

*GOD I SO NEED TO DO A TF PODCAST! I HAVE SO MANY WEIRD THINGS I WANT TO TALK ABOUT!*

I know I'm behind on a lot of stuff, and ott only knows how qualified I am to talk about literally any of this. I won't comment on the work you've done before, because I just don't have the information about your life to even consider the morals or intention.

What I can offer is a small bit of advice. Deleting records doesn't delete the history, and having records from the past lets others learn what works and what doesn't. Deleting the stories your not proud of, is the same as pretending you never did it to begin with. However, if you keep it around with an addendum addressing how you feel about it, you can look back and reflect on how you got better and why, while also giving others a chance to learn from what you've done. No ones perfect, but the best we can do is admit the mistakes we've made and address them, not remove them and take away potential steps for others.

I mostly agree, though I don't think its a black and white issue. I don't think anything I have done glorifies or condones amoral or vial behavior nor does it feed genuinely vial communities like active, proud pedophiles, BUT just because something manages to clear the bar of, "Isn't CP" doesn't mean it's harmless and their IS a point at which leaving something up is going to do more harm then just tearing it down and leaving in its place a reminder that, "This is what HAD been here, it is gone now and this is why."

Not that I am going to do that since like I said, I don't think anything I've written has crossed that line, but I DON'T agree with the idea that all art is sacrosanct simply because it is art and has been put up somewhere.

Should all art be kept in museums or archives? Sure why not. Even the WORST art has some value even if its just as a negative example. But at the same time does all art deserve to be hung up in a public gallery? Fucking no, obviously not!

I missed the drama, what exactly happened?

Famous and well loved TF comic artist drew explicit NSFW of two children (one a young teen the other a pre teen) and their parents being TFed and engaging in sexual acts with one another. Due to it violating both the sights policy and IRL laws and being a wildly grotesque and inappropriate thing to do, they deleted the comic, made a very bad, "Sorry you feel offended" apology, then realized they had basically ruined their reputation and where looking at a ban anyway and so preemptively deleted their account and vanished off the face of the internet.

In the comments of that comic, before it was deleted someone compared the comic (as a compliment) to the work of the Russian comic artist Snake89, who I work for as a freelance translator and editor. A comparison that probably had allot more to do with the comics over all dark and twisted tone and horror elements OUTSIDE of the CP as Snake has never and would never draw CP, BUT its still got me thinking very seriously about who I work with and just how much of a slippery slop 'dark, shocking comics that push the boundaries of good taste' can be as you constantly look for ways to keep things fresh and surprising.

So I've been doing allot of soul searching and talking to friends who both think what I am doing is fine and should keep it up and others who think its wrong and I should use this as a wake up call to realize I need to hard quiet and... Figuring out where I stand.

yeah. i learned of what actually happened in the comic and big yikes. also a very bad sign zefurr is defending bubbeh too.

Wait who is? God damn it... People really have just been crawling out of the woodwork to show their whole asses on this thing.

yeah zefur is trying the "its just a drawing so its fine" argument which isnt surprising considering some of the stuff he likes on twitter.

Wait Wren Zephyr??? Ah FUCK ME SIDEWAYS I'VE WORKED WITH THEM BEFORE! GOD DAMN IT!

I am... FUuuuuuuck... Fuck I HATE PEOPLE! No... No I like most people, just some people are fucking trash.

Sorry, thank you for letting me know.

zefur the one that did a lot of bigfoot and sasquatch stuff

OH! Ooooh okay... Well thank god I waited to hear that before saying anything to anyone else! Okay well, FUCK THAT DUDE THEN! But... Hopefully Wren Zephyr is still okay... Actually looking at their twitter... uh... maybe should just keep my mouth shut and not open more cans of worms.

oof yeah that could have been bad situation if conclusions were jumped to lmao. glad you waited too. i wouldnt wanna accidentally disparage someone because their username is similar to another persons username

Heh indeed.

It was a VERY fast turn around from, "Comic goes up" for at most two hours to "comic comes down and an (very bad) apology gets put up in its place" for the rest of that night to finally "whole account is just gone!" by the next morning. Which is why I think its important to be very clear about what happened because in the wake of the comic going down allot of defenders of the artist began openly just lying about the content of the comic, claiming it NEVER included CP and was PURELY a dark comic that happened to have kids in it, but that they where not involved in anything sexual or where in anyway NSFW. Which... Ya no MASSIVE lie that anyone who actually saw the comic before it went down could tell you.

But ya, it was indirect, they where talking about Snake not me, but due to my work with Snake... I could have let it lie and I don't think anyone would have ever noticed or cared, like I said, super short time up, that comment probably got seen by a dozen people at most before the comic was taken down and I doubt any of them would even know who Snake was let alone that I work with him, but... I don't want to just sweep things like this under the rug. That comment hurt and has had me doing allot of very serious soul searching and I want to be held accountable by the people who support me, good or bad.

Anyway, thank you for the kind word.

Its just... Depressing and gross.

TF has a lot of elements, and it can go to dark corners like body horror, gore, non-consent and just plain loss of humanity. Do I think sometimes it goes too far? Yes. Do I think it's the same as using children as another object of suffering? No.

If you want to have a whole "family ends up turning into a buch of animals and their loss of humanity makes them do things they wouldn't otherwise", Arania has a series of stories about families who end up becomming zoo attractions. The key difference being they are all adults. This kind of scenario doesn't exactly does it for me as I have never understood why they are appealing, but it's something that stray very far from real life. The same cannot be said about the exploitation of minors. It's easy to imagine someone grabbing a drawing like that and manipulating people by saying "see? this could be you", and since a lot of us actually discovered our interest for TF at an early age, that in itself is more than enough reason to bash said content.

The thing about doing explicit content is thst you habe to be careful of what it might say. When I see a dark TF comic, I see the possibility of liking it in the same way we pretend to say "oh noo don't turn me into an animaaaall noooo!" and actually want it. Big part of our influences in media came from that fear of losing control and being put into a situation where you act more primal and fierce. That can be translated into power play, BDSM, consensual non-consent, etc.

You know what purposely sexualizing minors can be translated into? Nothing. The only way you can obtain something from it is by seeing their suffer. And there's only one way of obtaining that.

This is why I feel it's very different from Snake's things. Hell, even the commissions of the person I suspect commissioned the comic are very different from that comic itself. The thing is that the hyperfocus on seeing a family suffer and lose their morals, humanity and ethics stood above all else. To them, the naked child was nothing more than an object of fantasy. And that's why I think sometimes you do need to question what you do. Again: I don't think slippery slopes work like that, otherwise people on YouTube who said that SFW young furs are all victims of grooming and that liking sexual anthros are one step bellow bring a zoopride would be right. It's like saying pupplay in BDSM is a temporary excuse to not fuck dogs.

It's. Not. The. Same.

You know what is the same thing? Actually saying things like "oh it's just fiction so I csn produce anything without worrying who it might affect, how it is seen and used, and what kind of message it may convey". And when you do it to the point that you actively draw bestiality, CP and other criminal stuff, then I can only assume you either condone those things or have a severe case of porn addiction to the point you think those are alright.

If anything, those are still very far from a lot of stuff. And if you're worried about what you are doing, talk to people. Talk to a therapist. They can help sort those things out.

*POINTS UP AT THIS!*

Thank you! I already took awhile responding to your other messages, but this pretty much covers most of what I would want to say anyway so just like... Ya! Basically this!

God I really need to do that podcast where I just talk to people in the TF community and try and get their perspectives on various odd and often unaddressed aspects of the fetish, both good and bad, from egg cracking to weird gender essentialist ideas.

Anyway thank you! When I saw I had three new comments here all from one person I was really worried it was going to be a creep coming in to argue with everyone about being to mean to CP creators and fans, so I'm BEYOND delighted to find you are not only NOT that, but an impressively thoughtful and insightful commenter who I really think has done a WONDERFUL job summarizing and arguing these points!

Well done, sorry if this is kinda hugely patronizing, but I want to give you a gold star!

Omg, sorry for so many comments. It's because I saw your comment on YouTube and couldn't reply to it with my IRL account, so I came to FA and ended up finding this very interesting thread.

Its alright and aw thank you!