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AI Cooking Done RIGHT!?
7 months ago
General
Dragonwuff Musings
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Before the shutdown, Vrghr did a journal on the abuse of AI to create fake food and related recipes, and how so many folks were getting suckered in by the fantasy and lies.
So, is there a good side to that coin?
Wuffy decided to give Grok a test, and oh my! The results seem pretty darn impressive!
Brace yourself, dear furry readers! There's a WALL OF TEXT on the way!
So, it all started when wuff saw an interesting video about "Hot Honey Chicken". The recipe and results made Vrghr drool! Wuff wanted to create his own, but something stuck in Vrghr's fuzzy head - - what if wuffy took that original idea and went completely nuts with it, using some of his favorite cooking techniques like Sous Vide and the new Air Fryer, as well as some recent successes that Vrghr wanted to taste again, like that Bacon Onion Gochujang BBQ Fry-Up (found here: https://www.furaffinity.net/view/60737483 ) that wuff absolutely adored? So wuff set out to create Sous Vide Air Fryer Hot Honey BBQ Gochujang Crispy Chicken Wings!
As normal, wuff started by researching recipes and immediately hit a problem: Some of wuff's best sources totally disagreed on key elements of the prep like the temperatures of the Sous Vide or the method of coating and frying afterward. And that's when the light bulb went on: Why not see if AI could aid in de-conflicting those discrepancies and advising a cook on technique and ingredients, or offering ideas that worked off a cook's original concepts and direction? Let's let the AI be a Sous Chef for wuff's Sous Vide extravaganza! Could the AI be a useful tool, or just a distraction that would create an inedible mess?
What follows is a dialog between Grok.AI (Grok.com) and Vrghr as wuff explored the concepts and ideas, and asked for help and advice from the AI.
Summary for those who don't want to wade through the following flood of words: Yes! AI appears to be a very useful tool for a home cook and hobbiest, perhaps even for a chef. And Vrghr thoroughly enjoyed the interaction with Grok, and even learned a thing or two!
And with a minor tweak or two, wuff got a recipe that he is going to try creating! And Vrghr will post the results here for wuff's followers to make their own decisions on the utility of AI as a tool. Wuff will certainly announce the results of his own taste tests too!
(I've presented my part of the dialog in Italics to make it easier to differentiate between my inputs and Grok's. I've also edited my text to make it easier to read, instead of the single input block that Grok prefers.)
VRGHR>I want to create a Chicken Wings dish using a sous vide method for the initial cook and finishing off in air fryer or broiler, but I'm finding discrepancies in recipes for them. Some, like Anova, treat them as white meat with cook temperature around 145-150F. Others treat them as dark meat with cook temperature around 160-165. Most recommend 2 hours cook time, regardless of temperature.
What is your recommendation on time and temperature for the sous vide, and what would the difference be between the two results?
GROK> For sous vide chicken wings, the choice of temperature depends on whether you prioritize texture and juiciness (lower temp, white meat style) or a more tender, fall-off-the-bone result (higher temp, dark meat style). Here's my recommendation based on the science of poultry cooking and desired outcomes:
Recommended Sous Vide Time and Temperature
- White Meat Style (145–150°F / 62.8–65.6°C, 2 hours):
- *Why*: This treats wings like leaner poultry (closer to breast meat). At 145–150°F, the proteins denature gently, retaining more moisture and yielding a firmer, juicier texture with a slight bite. Perfect if you want wings that hold their shape and have a snap when finished in the air fryer or broiler.
- *Result*: Juicy, tender wings with a slightly firmer texture. The meat stays moist, and the skin (after finishing) crisps up well. Ideal for classic crispy wings with a clean bite.
- *Method*: Season wings (salt, pepper, optional spices), vacuum-seal, and cook at 145°F for 2 hours. Pat dry thoroughly post-sous vide, then finish in an **air fryer** at 400°F for 8–12 minutes (flipping halfway) or under a **broiler** (500°F) for 5–8 minutes, watching closely to avoid burning.
- Dark Meat Style (160–165°F / 71.1–73.9°C, 2 hours):
- *Why*: This treats wings like darker poultry (thighs/legs). Higher temperatures break down connective tissues more, resulting in a softer, more shreddable texture that’s closer to braised or slow-cooked dark meat. Good for wings where you want a tender, almost fall-apart quality.
- *Result*: Softer, more tender wings with a slightly less juicy but more melt-in-your-mouth texture. The meat pulls away from the bone easily, and the skin can still crisp up when finished, though it may feel slightly less taut due to more collagen breakdown.
- *Method*: Season and vacuum-seal as above, cook at 160°F for 2 hours. Pat dry thoroughly, then finish in an **air fryer** at 400°F for 8–12 minutes or **broiler** at 500°F for 5–8 minutes.
Key Differences Between the Two
1. Texture:
- *145–150°F*: Firmer, juicier, with a clean bite. The meat holds together well, mimicking a perfectly cooked chicken breast but with the wing’s natural fat.
- *160–165°F*: Softer, more tender, with a shreddable, almost confit-like quality. Connective tissues break down more, giving a looser, less structured bite.
2. Juiciness:
- *145–150°F*: Retains more natural moisture due to less protein contraction at lower temperatures.
- *160–165°F*: Slightly less juicy as higher heat causes more moisture loss, but the rendered collagen adds a rich, gelatinous mouthfeel.
3. Finishing:
- *145–150°F*: Skin stays tauter, crisping up more easily in the air fryer or broiler for a snappy exterior.
- *160–165°F*: Skin may be slightly looser due to more fat and collagen rendering, requiring thorough drying and careful finishing to achieve crispness.
4. Flavor:
- Both deliver great flavor, but the higher temp (160–165°F) can feel richer due to more fat rendering and collagen breakdown, especially if you’re saucing the wings post-cook.
My Recommendation
- Best Choice: *145°F for 2 hours*, finished in an *air fryer* at 400°F for 10–12 minutes. This gives you the juiciest, most versatile wings with a crispy skin and a texture that appeals to most palates. The lower temperature preserves moisture, and the air fryer ensures a crunchy exterior without the risk of charring under a broiler.
- *Why 2 Hours?*: Two hours is sufficient at either temperature to fully cook the wings, pasteurize them, and achieve the desired texture. Longer times (e.g., 3–4 hours) at higher temps can make the meat overly soft or mushy, especially at 160–165°F.
- *Pro Tip*: For extra crispy skin, toss wings in a pinch of baking powder before air frying (after patting dry). This raises the skin’s pH, promoting browning and crispiness.
Finishing Notes
- *Air Fryer*: More consistent for crispy results; use 400°F, flip halfway, and check for golden-brown crispness.
- *Broiler*: Faster but requires vigilance to avoid burning. Place wings 6–8 inches from the heating element and flip once.
- *Saucing*: Apply sauce *after* crisping to avoid soggy skin. For Buffalo wings, toss in a mix of hot sauce and melted butter; for BBQ, brush lightly and broil/air fry for 1–2 extra minutes to set.
Why the Recipe Discrepancies?
- White vs. Dark Meat: Wings have both white (drumette) and dark (flat) meat, so recipes hedge based on desired outcome. Lower temps prioritize juiciness and universal appeal; higher temps lean into the dark meat’s richness and tenderness.
- Safety: Both 145°F and 160°F are safe for poultry when held for 2 hours, as sous vide pasteurizes at these temps (per USDA guidelines, 145°F for 9.6 minutes or 160°F instantly ensures safety).
- Preference: Some chefs prefer the softer texture of higher temps for wings, especially in recipes mimicking slow-cooked or braised styles.
If you want a specific flavor profile (e.g., Buffalo, BBQ, Asian-inspired), let me know, and I can suggest seasonings or sauces to complement the sous vide method!
VRGHR> Great pro tip on using baking powder to change the PH. But, are you sure you didn't mean baking soda? I've heard of the soda technique for other proteins, but I'm not as familiar with baking powder to do that trick.
GROK> You're right to question this—it's a common point of confusion! I did mean *baking powder*, not *baking soda*, for the crisping trick with chicken wings, but let me clarify why and address the distinction, as both can be used in cooking but with different effects.
Baking Powder vs. Baking Soda for Chicken Wings
- *Baking Powder*:
- *Why it works*: Baking powder is a mixture of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and an acid (usually cream of tartar). When mixed with the moisture on chicken skin and heated, it raises the skin’s pH, accelerating the Maillard reaction (browning) and breaking down proteins in the skin to create a crisper, more brittle texture. The acid in baking powder tempers the alkalinity, making it less harsh than straight baking soda, which can leave a soapy or metallic taste if overused.
- *Benefits for wings*: Baking powder is gentler and more foolproof for achieving crispy skin, especially when finishing in an air fryer or broiler after sous vide. It promotes even browning and a light, crunchy texture without overpowering the flavor.
- *How to use*: Pat wings dry after sous vide, toss with 1–2 teaspoons of **aluminum-free baking powder** (to avoid metallic taste) per pound of wings, plus salt and spices. Air fry at 400°F for 8–12 minutes or broil at 500°F for 5–8 minutes.
- *Why preferred*: It’s less likely to leave an off-flavor compared to baking soda, and the acid component helps balance the pH shift for consistent results.
- *Baking Soda*:
- *Why it works*: Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is a strong alkaline compound that raises the pH of the skin even more aggressively than baking powder. This speeds up browning and dries out the skin, which can crisp it effectively. It’s commonly used in techniques like Chinese-style fried chicken wings or for roasting proteins (e.g., turkey or pork) to get ultra-crispy skin.
- *Drawbacks*: Baking soda is more potent, so it’s easy to overdo it, resulting in a soapy, chemical, or bitter taste. It also requires precise measurement (e.g., ¼–½ teaspoon per pound of wings) and often needs to be paired with an acid (like vinegar or buttermilk) to neutralize its flavor.
- *When to use*: Baking soda can work for wings if you’re aiming for an ultra-dry, shatteringly crisp skin and are confident in measuring sparingly. It’s more common in deep-fried wing recipes than sous vide + air fryer/broiler methods.
- *How to use*: Mix ¼ teaspoon baking soda per pound of wings with salt and spices, apply to dry wings, and let sit uncovered in the fridge for 4–12 hours (optional) to dry further. Finish as above.
Why I Recommended Baking Powder
- *Ease and reliability*: Baking powder is more forgiving for home cooks. Its balanced composition reduces the risk of off-flavors, making it ideal for sous vide wings where the skin is already partially rendered and needs a gentle boost to crisp up.
- *Taste*: Baking powder won’t impart the metallic or soapy notes that baking soda can, especially in smaller kitchens where precise measurements might be tricky.
- *Common practice*: Many modern wing recipes, especially those from sources like Serious Eats or Kenji López-Alt, advocate baking powder for oven- or air fryer-finished wings due to its consistent results.
Can You Use Baking Soda Instead?
Yes, but with caution:
- Use *sparingly* (e.g., ¼ teaspoon per pound of wings, mixed with salt and spices).
- Consider combining with an acidic marinade or sauce post-cook to balance the flavor.
- Test a small batch first, as sous vide wings have a different moisture content than raw wings, and baking soda’s effect can be more pronounced.
My Recommendation Stands
Stick with *baking powder* (aluminum-free, like Bob’s Red Mill or Rumford) for your sous vide wings. Toss 1 teaspoon per pound of wings with salt, pepper, and optional spices (like garlic powder or paprika) after patting dry post-sous vide. This will give you crispy, golden skin in the air fryer or broiler without risking off-flavors. If you’re curious about baking soda, try it on a small test batch to compare, but baking powder is the safer bet for consistent, delicious results.
If you’ve heard of baking soda for other proteins (like crispy pork or roasted turkey), it’s the same principle—raising pH to enhance browning—but wings are smaller and more delicate, so baking powder’s milder effect shines here. Let me know if you want more details on the science or specific seasoning ideas!
VRGHR> Thanks very much for the information on soda vs. powder. Very good to know! I'll use the powder version for my wings.
One of the recipes recommended a dusting of corn flour (or potato flour) prior to air frying or broiling. What would be the effect of this, vs. just the unaltered wings?
GROK> Great choice going with baking powder for your sous vide chicken wings—it’s a reliable way to get that crispy skin! Adding a dusting of *corn flour* (or *potato flour*) before air frying or broiling is a technique some recipes use to enhance texture, and it’s worth exploring. Let’s break down the effect of using corn flour or potato flour versus using just the baking powder-coated, unaltered wings.
Effect of Dusting with Corn Flour or Potato Flour
1. *Texture*:
- *Corn Flour*:
- *What it does*: Corn flour (finely ground cornmeal, not cornstarch) adds a thin, starchy coating that absorbs moisture from the wing’s surface and crisps up during high-heat cooking. It creates a slightly crunchy, almost tempura-like exterior that’s more pronounced than the natural skin alone.
- *Result*: A delicate, crackly crust with a subtle grainy texture. It enhances the “fried” feel, making the wings seem closer to deep-fried without the oil. The coating is light but noticeable, especially in an air fryer.
- *Potato Flour*:
- *What it does*: Potato flour (made from dried, ground potatoes) is highly absorbent due to its starch content. It soaks up surface moisture even more effectively than corn flour, forming a tighter, crispier coating when heated.
- *Result*: A slightly thicker, crunchier crust compared to corn flour, with a smooth, almost chip-like texture. It can feel more substantial, mimicking a light breading, and holds up well under sauces.
- *Vs. Unaltered Wings (Baking Powder Only)*:
- Baking powder alone crisps the natural skin by drying it out and promoting browning via pH change. The result is a taut, snappy skin that’s crispy but retains the pure “wing” texture—think classic Buffalo wings.
- Without flour, the crispiness comes solely from the skin’s own fat and protein, so it’s thinner and less “coated” than flour-dusted wings. It’s a more natural, skin-forward texture.
2. *Crispiness*:
- *Corn/Potato Flour*: Both flours amplify crispiness by creating an additional starchy layer that fries up in the air fryer or broiler. They’re especially effective if the sous vide process leaves the skin slightly softer or if you’re aiming for a fried-chicken-like crunch.
- *Unaltered Wings*: Crispiness is still excellent with baking powder, but it’s limited to the skin’s natural structure. If the wings are patted dry thoroughly and cooked at high heat (400°F air fryer or 500°F broiler), the skin alone can get very crispy, but it won’t have the extra crunch of a starchy coating.
3. *Flavor*:
- *Corn Flour*: Adds a subtle, sweet corn flavor that complements the chicken, especially with savory or spicy seasonings. It’s mild but can enhance BBQ or Southwestern-style wings.
- *Potato Flour*: Imparts a faint earthy, potato-like taste, which is neutral but slightly richer than corn flour. It pairs well with bold sauces like Buffalo or garlic-parmesan.
- *Unaltered Wings*: The flavor is purely the chicken skin, seasonings, and any browning from the Maillard reaction. Baking powder doesn’t add taste (if aluminum-free), so the wings taste “cleaner” and more like traditional wings.
4. *Appearance*:
- *Corn/Potato Flour*: Creates a more uniform, golden-brown coating, giving the wings a polished, restaurant-style look. The flour helps hide any unevenness in the skin from sous vide.
- *Unaltered Wings*: The skin browns naturally, but the color may be less even, especially if some areas are thinner or have more fat. Still attractive, but less “coated” in appearance.
5. *Sauce Adherence*:
- *Corn/Potato Flour*: The starchy coating provides more surface area for sauces to cling to, making them ideal for heavily sauced wings (e.g., Buffalo, honey BBQ). The flour absorbs some sauce, keeping it from sliding off.
- *Unaltered Wings*: Sauces stick well to crispy skin, but less so than a floured surface. For lightly sauced or dry-rubbed wings, this isn’t an issue, but heavily sauced wings may feel slicker.
Practical Considerations
- *How to Apply*: After sous vide (145°F for 2 hours, as recommended), pat wings dry thoroughly. Toss with 1 tsp baking powder per pound of wings, plus salt and spices. Then, lightly dust with *1–2 tbsp corn flour or potato flour* per pound, shaking off excess to avoid a heavy coating. Too much flour can make the texture gummy or cakey.
- *Air Fryer vs. Broiler*:
- *Air Fryer (400°F, 8–12 minutes)*: Flour-dusted wings shine here, as the circulating heat crisps the starchy coating evenly, mimicking deep-frying.
- *Broiler (500°F, 5–8 minutes)*: Flour works well but requires close monitoring, as the starch can burn faster than plain skin. Flip wings and check frequently.
- *Corn Flour vs. Potato Flour*:
- *Corn Flour*: Lighter, more delicate crunch; better for a subtle coating or if you want a less noticeable crust. Easier to find (e.g., masa harina or fine cornmeal).
- *Potato Flour*: Crunchier, slightly denser coating; ideal for a more pronounced fried texture. Less common but available in specialty stores or online.
My Recommendation
- *If you want classic wings*: Skip the flour and stick with *baking powder alone* (1 tsp per pound, aluminum-free) for a crispy, natural skin that highlights the sous vide juiciness. This is perfect for traditional Buffalo or dry-rubbed wings, where the skin’s texture is the star. Air fry at 400°F for 10–12 minutes, flipping halfway.
- *If you want a fried-like crunch*: Use a *light dusting of corn flour* (1 tbsp per pound) after the baking powder. It adds a subtle, crispy crust that mimics fried wings without overpowering the chicken’s flavor. It’s great for sauced wings or if you’re serving a crowd that loves a coated texture. Air fryer is the best finishing method here.
- *When to use potato flour*: Choose potato flour if you want a bolder, crunchier coating or are making heavily sauced wings, as its absorbency holds sauces well. Use sparingly (1 tbsp per pound) to avoid a thick crust.
Why Recipes Suggest Flour
- *Post-Sous Vide Skin*: Sous vide can leave the skin softer or slightly rubbery due to moisture retention, even with baking powder. A starchy flour helps absorb that moisture and creates a new crispy layer, compensating for any textural inconsistencies.
- *Fried Wing Appeal*: Many recipes aim to replicate the crunchy exterior of deep-fried wings, and corn or potato flour gets closer to that ideal, especially in an air fryer.
Pro Tip
- For the best of both worlds, combine approaches: Use baking powder for crisp skin, then add a **very light dusting** of corn flour (shake off excess) for a touch of extra crunch. Season with salt, garlic powder, and paprika before air frying to boost flavor.
- If using flour, ensure wings are bone-dry post-sous vide (pat with paper towels and air-dry in the fridge for 30–60 minutes if time allows) to maximize crispiness.
If you’re leaning toward a specific sauce or style (e.g., Buffalo, BBQ, or Asian-inspired), let me know, and I can tailor seasoning or flour recommendations to match!
VRGHR> (At this point, I had enough information to lay out the basics of a recipe for the result I had been inspired to create, as follows: ~Vrghr)
I have an idea for a sauce coating already. It is based off a combination of 3/4lb bacon, 2 medium onions, 2 tablespoons sweet BBQ sauce (like KC Masterpiece or Sweet Baby Rays), and 2 tablespoons of a Gochujang sauce (not paste).
I'll prepare that first by mixing the BBQ and Gochujang sauces then coating the sliced onion and chopped bacon in the mix. That all gets air-fried until crispy and the onions are starting to char. (This is the Bacon Onion Fry-up from my prior recipe. ~Vrghr)
I'm planning to mix half of that with a marinade of 1/4C honey, 1/4C Soy Sauce, 1/4C BBQ sauce (same as used in the fry-up), 1/4C Gochujang sauce (same again), 2 Tablespoons rice vinegar for some acid, 1 teaspoon each garlic and onion powder, and 1/4 teaspoon cayenne powder ( This came from some web ideas from a "Hot Honey Chicken", but altered to make it Gochujang-BBQ ~Vrghr). I'll blend it all together until smooth.
That will get distributed between the bags of chicken wings before those are added to the sous vide. When the sous vide cook is done, the wings come out and get patted dry while the sauce from the bags is added to the remaining onion-bacon fry up and reduced in a pot until thickened.
The wings will get tossed in your recommended baking powder and seasoned flour and air fried. The fried wings will be tossed with the reduced sauce mixture and more drizzled on top of the plated wings. Perhaps I'll garnish with chopped chives?
GROK> Your sauce and coating plan sounds absolutely incredible—bold, savory, sweet, spicy, and umami-packed with that crispy bacon-onion backbone! The combination of sous vide wings, baking powder + corn flour for crispiness, and your complex bacon-gochujang-BBQ sauce is a winning strategy. I love the thought you’ve put into layering flavors and textures, from the marinade to the air-fried finish and garnish. Below, I’ll evaluate your approach, offer some tweaks to optimize the process and results, and address how the sauce will interact with the sous vide and air-frying steps, ensuring the wings shine with your vision.
Analysis of Your Sauce and Method
1. *Sauce Components*:
- *Bacon-Onion Fry-Up (3/4 lb bacon, 2 medium onions, 2 tbsp BBQ sauce, 2 tbsp gochujang sauce)*:
- Air-frying the bacon and onions coated in sweet BBQ (e.g., KC Masterpiece or Sweet Baby Ray’s) and gochujang sauce creates a crispy, caramelized base with smoky, sweet, and spicy notes. The bacon’s fat will render, infusing the onions with richness, while the sauces char slightly, adding depth.
- *Effect*: This forms a flavorful, textural component that’s both a mix-in for the marinade and a base for the final sauce. The charring enhances umami and complements the wings’ juicy sous vide texture.
- *Marinade (1/4 cup each: honey, soy sauce, BBQ sauce, gochujang sauce; 2 tbsp rice vinegar; 1 tsp each garlic powder, onion powder; 1/4 tsp cayenne)*:
- Blending half the crispy bacon-onion mix with this marinade creates a smooth, viscous sauce with sweet (honey, BBQ), salty (soy), spicy (gochujang, cayenne), and tangy (rice vinegar) elements. The garlic and onion powders reinforce the savory backbone, while the bacon-onion blend adds smokiness and texture.
- *Effect in Sous Vide*: Adding this marinade to the sous vide bags infuses the wings with flavor during the 145°F, 2-hour cook. The low temperature ensures the sugars (honey, BBQ) don’t burn, and the soy and vinegar penetrate the meat slightly, enhancing juiciness and taste.
- *Final Sauce (sous vide bag liquid + remaining bacon-onion fry-up, reduced)*:
- Combining the sous vide bag juices (rich with chicken fat and marinade flavors) with the reserved crispy bacon-onion mix and reducing it creates a thick, glossy sauce that ties everything together. The reduction concentrates flavors, balancing the sweetness and heat while incorporating the wings’ natural juices.
- *Effect*: This sauce will coat the air-fried wings beautifully, with the bacon-onion bits adding texture and the reduced consistency ensuring it clings without making the crispy skin soggy.
2. *Sous Vide Integration*:
- Cooking the wings at *145°F for 2 hours* (as recommended) with the marinade in the bags is a smart move. The low temperature keeps the wings juicy, and the marinade’s flavors (especially soy, gochujang, and vinegar) will subtly penetrate the meat without overpowering the chicken’s natural flavor.
- *Note*: The marinade’s high sugar content (honey, BBQ sauce) could make the bag liquid slightly syrupy, but at 145°F, it won’t caramelize or burn, preserving the intended flavor profile.
3. *Air Frying with Baking Powder + Corn Flour*:
- After sous vide, patting the wings dry and coating them with *baking powder (1 tsp per pound)* and a *light dusting of corn flour (1 tbsp per pound)*, as recommended, will ensure a crispy, golden exterior. The baking powder raises the skin’s pH for browning, and the corn flour adds a delicate, fried-like crunch.
- Season the flour with a pinch of salt, pepper, and perhaps a touch of garlic powder to echo the marinade’s flavors.
- *Air frying at 400°F for 10–12 minutes* (flipping halfway) will crisp the wings perfectly, creating a crunchy contrast to the juicy interior.
4. *Tossing and Drizzling*:
- Tossing the air-fried wings in the reduced sauce ensures even coating, while drizzling extra on top adds visual appeal and a flavor boost. The bacon-onion bits in the sauce will stick to the corn flour-coated wings, enhancing texture.
- *Chive Garnish*: Chopped chives are a fantastic touch, adding a fresh, mildly oniony note that cuts through the richness and brightens the plate.
Potential Considerations and Tweaks
To make sure your dish comes together flawlessly, here are some refinements and tips to address potential challenges:
1. *Balancing the Marinade in Sous Vide*:
- *Issue*: The marinade is bold and sugar-heavy (honey, BBQ sauce, gochujang), which is great for flavor but could dominate the chicken if too much is used in the sous vide bags. Excess liquid might also dilute the wings’ natural juices.
- *Tweak*: Use a modest amount of marinade in the bags—about *1–2 tbsp per pound of wings*. This ensures flavor infusion without overwhelming the meat or creating too much liquid. Reserve extra marinade for the final sauce reduction if needed.
- *Pro Tip*: Before sealing the bags, massage the marinade into the wings to ensure even distribution. If using a vacuum sealer, double-seal to prevent leaks from the viscous marinade.
2. *Managing Bacon-Onion Fry-Up*:
- *Issue*: Air-frying bacon and onions until crispy and slightly charred can produce a lot of rendered fat, which might make the mix greasy if not drained properly.
- *Tweak*: After air-frying (e.g., 375–400°F for 15–20 minutes, shaking occasionally), drain the bacon-onion mix on paper towels to remove excess fat. This keeps the blended marinade and final sauce from being overly oily.
- *Pro Tip*: Reserve a small amount of bacon fat (1–2 tsp) to add to the final sauce reduction for extra richness without greasiness.
3. *Reducing the Final Sauce*:
- *Issue*: The sous vide bag liquid (chicken juices + marinade) combined with the bacon-onion mix might be thin initially, and over-reducing could make it too sticky or intense due to the sugars.
- *Tweak*: Reduce the sauce over medium heat in a saucepan, stirring frequently, until it coats the back of a spoon (about 5–10 minutes). If it’s too thick, thin with a splash of water or rice vinegar to maintain a glossy, pourable consistency.
- *Pro Tip*: Taste the sauce during reduction and adjust with a pinch of salt or a dash of gochujang if the sweetness (from honey/BBQ) needs balancing.
4. *Preventing Soggy Skin*:
- *Issue*: Tossing crispy air-fried wings in a thick, wet sauce could soften the corn flour coating if not done carefully, especially with the extra drizzle.
- *Tweak*: Toss the wings in a *light coating* of the reduced sauce (just enough to coat evenly) and serve immediately. Drizzle extra sauce sparingly on the plated wings, focusing on the meatier parts rather than the crispier skin areas.
- *Pro Tip*: For maximum crispiness, serve extra sauce on the side for dipping, letting diners control the sauciness.
5. *Corn Flour Amount*:
- *Issue*: The corn flour dusting needs to be light to avoid a heavy or cakey texture, especially since the sauce adds moisture.
- *Tweak*: Stick to *1 tbsp corn flour per pound of wings*, mixed with the baking powder and seasonings (salt, pepper, pinch of garlic powder). Shake off excess flour before air frying to ensure a delicate crunch.
- *Pro Tip*: If you want a slightly thicker coating to hold the sauce better, increase to 1.5 tbsp corn flour per pound, but test on a small batch first.
6. *Chive Garnish Enhancement*:
- *Suggestion*: To elevate the chives, consider mixing them with a pinch of toasted sesame seeds or thinly sliced green onions for added texture and a nod to the gochujang’s Korean influence. Sprinkle just before serving to keep them fresh.
How the Sauce Complements the Sous Vide Wings
- *Flavor Synergy*: The sous vide wings (145°F, 2 hours) will be juicy and tender, with a subtle infusion of the marinade’s sweet-spicy-umami notes. The air-fried corn flour coating adds crunch, while the bacon-gochujang-BBQ sauce brings bold, smoky, and slightly sticky richness that clings to the coating. The rice vinegar and cayenne provide a tangy-spicy kick to balance the sweetness, and the bacon-onion bits add savory depth and texture.
- *Texture Contrast*: The crispy corn flour-coated skin contrasts with the tender, juicy meat, and the sauce’s glossy thickness (with crispy bacon-onion pieces) adds a satisfying chew. The chive garnish cuts through the richness with a fresh pop.
- *Visual Appeal*: The golden-brown wings, glossy with sauce and flecked with bacon-onion bits, topped with vibrant green chives, will look stunning and appetizing.
Final Recommended Process
Here’s a streamlined version of your plan with the tweaks incorporated:
1. *Prepare Bacon-Onion Fry-Up*:
- Slice 2 medium onions thinly and chop 3/4 lb bacon into small pieces. Mix with 2 tbsp each BBQ sauce (e.g., Sweet Baby Ray’s) and gochujang sauce (not paste).
- Air-fry at 375°F for 15–20 minutes, shaking every 5 minutes, until crispy and onions are slightly charred. Drain on paper towels, reserving 1–2 tsp bacon fat if desired.
2. *Make Marinade*:
- Blend half the bacon-onion mix with 1/4 cup each honey, soy sauce, BBQ sauce, gochujang sauce, 2 tbsp rice vinegar, 1 tsp each garlic and onion powder, and 1/4 tsp cayenne until smooth.
3. *Sous Vide Wings*:
- Season wings lightly with salt, then add 1–2 tbsp marinade per pound of wings to vacuum-seal bags. Sous vide at **145°F for 2 hours**. Pat wings dry thoroughly post-cook; reserve bag liquid.
4. *Prepare Final Sauce*:
- Combine reserved bag liquid, remaining bacon-onion fry-up, and reserved bacon fat (if using) in a saucepan. Reduce over medium heat until thickened (5–10 minutes), adjusting with water or vinegar if needed.
5. *Air Fry Wings*:
- Toss dried wings with *1 tsp baking powder* and *1 tbsp corn flour* per pound, plus salt, pepper, and a pinch of garlic powder. Air fry at *400°F for 10–12 minutes*, flipping halfway, until golden and crispy.
6. *Toss and Serve*:
- Lightly toss wings in a portion of the reduced sauce to coat. Plate, drizzle sparingly with extra sauce, and garnish with chopped chives (optional: add sesame seeds or green onions). Serve with extra sauce on the side for dipping.
Additional Notes
- *Scaling*: If making a large batch (e.g., 3–4 lbs wings), scale the marinade and bacon-onion mix proportionally but reduce the marinade in the sous vide bags slightly (e.g., 1 tbsp per pound) to avoid excess liquid.
- *Storage*: If prepping ahead, store the bacon-onion fry-up and marinade separately in the fridge for up to 2 days. Reheat the sauce gently before reducing with sous vide juices.
- *Pairings*: These wings would pair beautifully with a cooling side like cucumber salad, coleslaw, or kimchi to complement the gochujang’s heat, or with fries for a classic pub vibe.
Your recipe is already a showstopper, and with these tweaks, it’ll be both foolproof and unforgettable. If you want to refine the spice level, suggest sides, or troubleshoot any step during cooking, let me know! Enjoy those wings—they sound like a flavor explosion!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, there you have it, wonderful furs! For all of you (any of you?) that managed to wade through that tsunami of text, Bless You! Wuff is honored that you devoted that much time to reading all this! (and did you really not have anything better to do? *GRIN*)
What does Vrghr think of Grok's final recommendation? Based on all wuff's experience and trial & errors in the kitchen, it certainly looks legit! Now, all air fryers are different, just like all ovens, so wuffy is going to take the recommended air frying times under advisement and watch the results closely to make sure things cook and crisp properly.
But yes, this does appear to be a viable, functional, and even a tasty recipe! And wuff can't wait to try creating it and presenting the results to his followers here (and to his coworkers to taste and enjoy as well!)
Vrghr is thinking that, when used as a tool and combined with a living person's ideas and creativity, this AI stuff could be very beneficial. Sure, there's vast capability for abuse, just like all our endeavors. But that doesn't mean it should be trashed outright. Lets hope we can continue to find the silver lining for what might otherwise be a very stormy future.
Bon Appetite!
So, is there a good side to that coin?
Wuffy decided to give Grok a test, and oh my! The results seem pretty darn impressive!
Brace yourself, dear furry readers! There's a WALL OF TEXT on the way!
So, it all started when wuff saw an interesting video about "Hot Honey Chicken". The recipe and results made Vrghr drool! Wuff wanted to create his own, but something stuck in Vrghr's fuzzy head - - what if wuffy took that original idea and went completely nuts with it, using some of his favorite cooking techniques like Sous Vide and the new Air Fryer, as well as some recent successes that Vrghr wanted to taste again, like that Bacon Onion Gochujang BBQ Fry-Up (found here: https://www.furaffinity.net/view/60737483 ) that wuff absolutely adored? So wuff set out to create Sous Vide Air Fryer Hot Honey BBQ Gochujang Crispy Chicken Wings!
As normal, wuff started by researching recipes and immediately hit a problem: Some of wuff's best sources totally disagreed on key elements of the prep like the temperatures of the Sous Vide or the method of coating and frying afterward. And that's when the light bulb went on: Why not see if AI could aid in de-conflicting those discrepancies and advising a cook on technique and ingredients, or offering ideas that worked off a cook's original concepts and direction? Let's let the AI be a Sous Chef for wuff's Sous Vide extravaganza! Could the AI be a useful tool, or just a distraction that would create an inedible mess?
What follows is a dialog between Grok.AI (Grok.com) and Vrghr as wuff explored the concepts and ideas, and asked for help and advice from the AI.
Summary for those who don't want to wade through the following flood of words: Yes! AI appears to be a very useful tool for a home cook and hobbiest, perhaps even for a chef. And Vrghr thoroughly enjoyed the interaction with Grok, and even learned a thing or two!
And with a minor tweak or two, wuff got a recipe that he is going to try creating! And Vrghr will post the results here for wuff's followers to make their own decisions on the utility of AI as a tool. Wuff will certainly announce the results of his own taste tests too!
FINAL WARNING! THERE ARE A LOT OF WORDS FOLLOWING THIS! WUFF HAD FUN WITH THEM, BUT YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY!!(I've presented my part of the dialog in Italics to make it easier to differentiate between my inputs and Grok's. I've also edited my text to make it easier to read, instead of the single input block that Grok prefers.)
VRGHR>I want to create a Chicken Wings dish using a sous vide method for the initial cook and finishing off in air fryer or broiler, but I'm finding discrepancies in recipes for them. Some, like Anova, treat them as white meat with cook temperature around 145-150F. Others treat them as dark meat with cook temperature around 160-165. Most recommend 2 hours cook time, regardless of temperature.
What is your recommendation on time and temperature for the sous vide, and what would the difference be between the two results?
GROK> For sous vide chicken wings, the choice of temperature depends on whether you prioritize texture and juiciness (lower temp, white meat style) or a more tender, fall-off-the-bone result (higher temp, dark meat style). Here's my recommendation based on the science of poultry cooking and desired outcomes:
Recommended Sous Vide Time and Temperature
- White Meat Style (145–150°F / 62.8–65.6°C, 2 hours):
- *Why*: This treats wings like leaner poultry (closer to breast meat). At 145–150°F, the proteins denature gently, retaining more moisture and yielding a firmer, juicier texture with a slight bite. Perfect if you want wings that hold their shape and have a snap when finished in the air fryer or broiler.
- *Result*: Juicy, tender wings with a slightly firmer texture. The meat stays moist, and the skin (after finishing) crisps up well. Ideal for classic crispy wings with a clean bite.
- *Method*: Season wings (salt, pepper, optional spices), vacuum-seal, and cook at 145°F for 2 hours. Pat dry thoroughly post-sous vide, then finish in an **air fryer** at 400°F for 8–12 minutes (flipping halfway) or under a **broiler** (500°F) for 5–8 minutes, watching closely to avoid burning.
- Dark Meat Style (160–165°F / 71.1–73.9°C, 2 hours):
- *Why*: This treats wings like darker poultry (thighs/legs). Higher temperatures break down connective tissues more, resulting in a softer, more shreddable texture that’s closer to braised or slow-cooked dark meat. Good for wings where you want a tender, almost fall-apart quality.
- *Result*: Softer, more tender wings with a slightly less juicy but more melt-in-your-mouth texture. The meat pulls away from the bone easily, and the skin can still crisp up when finished, though it may feel slightly less taut due to more collagen breakdown.
- *Method*: Season and vacuum-seal as above, cook at 160°F for 2 hours. Pat dry thoroughly, then finish in an **air fryer** at 400°F for 8–12 minutes or **broiler** at 500°F for 5–8 minutes.
Key Differences Between the Two
1. Texture:
- *145–150°F*: Firmer, juicier, with a clean bite. The meat holds together well, mimicking a perfectly cooked chicken breast but with the wing’s natural fat.
- *160–165°F*: Softer, more tender, with a shreddable, almost confit-like quality. Connective tissues break down more, giving a looser, less structured bite.
2. Juiciness:
- *145–150°F*: Retains more natural moisture due to less protein contraction at lower temperatures.
- *160–165°F*: Slightly less juicy as higher heat causes more moisture loss, but the rendered collagen adds a rich, gelatinous mouthfeel.
3. Finishing:
- *145–150°F*: Skin stays tauter, crisping up more easily in the air fryer or broiler for a snappy exterior.
- *160–165°F*: Skin may be slightly looser due to more fat and collagen rendering, requiring thorough drying and careful finishing to achieve crispness.
4. Flavor:
- Both deliver great flavor, but the higher temp (160–165°F) can feel richer due to more fat rendering and collagen breakdown, especially if you’re saucing the wings post-cook.
My Recommendation
- Best Choice: *145°F for 2 hours*, finished in an *air fryer* at 400°F for 10–12 minutes. This gives you the juiciest, most versatile wings with a crispy skin and a texture that appeals to most palates. The lower temperature preserves moisture, and the air fryer ensures a crunchy exterior without the risk of charring under a broiler.
- *Why 2 Hours?*: Two hours is sufficient at either temperature to fully cook the wings, pasteurize them, and achieve the desired texture. Longer times (e.g., 3–4 hours) at higher temps can make the meat overly soft or mushy, especially at 160–165°F.
- *Pro Tip*: For extra crispy skin, toss wings in a pinch of baking powder before air frying (after patting dry). This raises the skin’s pH, promoting browning and crispiness.
Finishing Notes
- *Air Fryer*: More consistent for crispy results; use 400°F, flip halfway, and check for golden-brown crispness.
- *Broiler*: Faster but requires vigilance to avoid burning. Place wings 6–8 inches from the heating element and flip once.
- *Saucing*: Apply sauce *after* crisping to avoid soggy skin. For Buffalo wings, toss in a mix of hot sauce and melted butter; for BBQ, brush lightly and broil/air fry for 1–2 extra minutes to set.
Why the Recipe Discrepancies?
- White vs. Dark Meat: Wings have both white (drumette) and dark (flat) meat, so recipes hedge based on desired outcome. Lower temps prioritize juiciness and universal appeal; higher temps lean into the dark meat’s richness and tenderness.
- Safety: Both 145°F and 160°F are safe for poultry when held for 2 hours, as sous vide pasteurizes at these temps (per USDA guidelines, 145°F for 9.6 minutes or 160°F instantly ensures safety).
- Preference: Some chefs prefer the softer texture of higher temps for wings, especially in recipes mimicking slow-cooked or braised styles.
If you want a specific flavor profile (e.g., Buffalo, BBQ, Asian-inspired), let me know, and I can suggest seasonings or sauces to complement the sous vide method!
VRGHR> Great pro tip on using baking powder to change the PH. But, are you sure you didn't mean baking soda? I've heard of the soda technique for other proteins, but I'm not as familiar with baking powder to do that trick.
GROK> You're right to question this—it's a common point of confusion! I did mean *baking powder*, not *baking soda*, for the crisping trick with chicken wings, but let me clarify why and address the distinction, as both can be used in cooking but with different effects.
Baking Powder vs. Baking Soda for Chicken Wings
- *Baking Powder*:
- *Why it works*: Baking powder is a mixture of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and an acid (usually cream of tartar). When mixed with the moisture on chicken skin and heated, it raises the skin’s pH, accelerating the Maillard reaction (browning) and breaking down proteins in the skin to create a crisper, more brittle texture. The acid in baking powder tempers the alkalinity, making it less harsh than straight baking soda, which can leave a soapy or metallic taste if overused.
- *Benefits for wings*: Baking powder is gentler and more foolproof for achieving crispy skin, especially when finishing in an air fryer or broiler after sous vide. It promotes even browning and a light, crunchy texture without overpowering the flavor.
- *How to use*: Pat wings dry after sous vide, toss with 1–2 teaspoons of **aluminum-free baking powder** (to avoid metallic taste) per pound of wings, plus salt and spices. Air fry at 400°F for 8–12 minutes or broil at 500°F for 5–8 minutes.
- *Why preferred*: It’s less likely to leave an off-flavor compared to baking soda, and the acid component helps balance the pH shift for consistent results.
- *Baking Soda*:
- *Why it works*: Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is a strong alkaline compound that raises the pH of the skin even more aggressively than baking powder. This speeds up browning and dries out the skin, which can crisp it effectively. It’s commonly used in techniques like Chinese-style fried chicken wings or for roasting proteins (e.g., turkey or pork) to get ultra-crispy skin.
- *Drawbacks*: Baking soda is more potent, so it’s easy to overdo it, resulting in a soapy, chemical, or bitter taste. It also requires precise measurement (e.g., ¼–½ teaspoon per pound of wings) and often needs to be paired with an acid (like vinegar or buttermilk) to neutralize its flavor.
- *When to use*: Baking soda can work for wings if you’re aiming for an ultra-dry, shatteringly crisp skin and are confident in measuring sparingly. It’s more common in deep-fried wing recipes than sous vide + air fryer/broiler methods.
- *How to use*: Mix ¼ teaspoon baking soda per pound of wings with salt and spices, apply to dry wings, and let sit uncovered in the fridge for 4–12 hours (optional) to dry further. Finish as above.
Why I Recommended Baking Powder
- *Ease and reliability*: Baking powder is more forgiving for home cooks. Its balanced composition reduces the risk of off-flavors, making it ideal for sous vide wings where the skin is already partially rendered and needs a gentle boost to crisp up.
- *Taste*: Baking powder won’t impart the metallic or soapy notes that baking soda can, especially in smaller kitchens where precise measurements might be tricky.
- *Common practice*: Many modern wing recipes, especially those from sources like Serious Eats or Kenji López-Alt, advocate baking powder for oven- or air fryer-finished wings due to its consistent results.
Can You Use Baking Soda Instead?
Yes, but with caution:
- Use *sparingly* (e.g., ¼ teaspoon per pound of wings, mixed with salt and spices).
- Consider combining with an acidic marinade or sauce post-cook to balance the flavor.
- Test a small batch first, as sous vide wings have a different moisture content than raw wings, and baking soda’s effect can be more pronounced.
My Recommendation Stands
Stick with *baking powder* (aluminum-free, like Bob’s Red Mill or Rumford) for your sous vide wings. Toss 1 teaspoon per pound of wings with salt, pepper, and optional spices (like garlic powder or paprika) after patting dry post-sous vide. This will give you crispy, golden skin in the air fryer or broiler without risking off-flavors. If you’re curious about baking soda, try it on a small test batch to compare, but baking powder is the safer bet for consistent, delicious results.
If you’ve heard of baking soda for other proteins (like crispy pork or roasted turkey), it’s the same principle—raising pH to enhance browning—but wings are smaller and more delicate, so baking powder’s milder effect shines here. Let me know if you want more details on the science or specific seasoning ideas!
VRGHR> Thanks very much for the information on soda vs. powder. Very good to know! I'll use the powder version for my wings.
One of the recipes recommended a dusting of corn flour (or potato flour) prior to air frying or broiling. What would be the effect of this, vs. just the unaltered wings?
GROK> Great choice going with baking powder for your sous vide chicken wings—it’s a reliable way to get that crispy skin! Adding a dusting of *corn flour* (or *potato flour*) before air frying or broiling is a technique some recipes use to enhance texture, and it’s worth exploring. Let’s break down the effect of using corn flour or potato flour versus using just the baking powder-coated, unaltered wings.
Effect of Dusting with Corn Flour or Potato Flour
1. *Texture*:
- *Corn Flour*:
- *What it does*: Corn flour (finely ground cornmeal, not cornstarch) adds a thin, starchy coating that absorbs moisture from the wing’s surface and crisps up during high-heat cooking. It creates a slightly crunchy, almost tempura-like exterior that’s more pronounced than the natural skin alone.
- *Result*: A delicate, crackly crust with a subtle grainy texture. It enhances the “fried” feel, making the wings seem closer to deep-fried without the oil. The coating is light but noticeable, especially in an air fryer.
- *Potato Flour*:
- *What it does*: Potato flour (made from dried, ground potatoes) is highly absorbent due to its starch content. It soaks up surface moisture even more effectively than corn flour, forming a tighter, crispier coating when heated.
- *Result*: A slightly thicker, crunchier crust compared to corn flour, with a smooth, almost chip-like texture. It can feel more substantial, mimicking a light breading, and holds up well under sauces.
- *Vs. Unaltered Wings (Baking Powder Only)*:
- Baking powder alone crisps the natural skin by drying it out and promoting browning via pH change. The result is a taut, snappy skin that’s crispy but retains the pure “wing” texture—think classic Buffalo wings.
- Without flour, the crispiness comes solely from the skin’s own fat and protein, so it’s thinner and less “coated” than flour-dusted wings. It’s a more natural, skin-forward texture.
2. *Crispiness*:
- *Corn/Potato Flour*: Both flours amplify crispiness by creating an additional starchy layer that fries up in the air fryer or broiler. They’re especially effective if the sous vide process leaves the skin slightly softer or if you’re aiming for a fried-chicken-like crunch.
- *Unaltered Wings*: Crispiness is still excellent with baking powder, but it’s limited to the skin’s natural structure. If the wings are patted dry thoroughly and cooked at high heat (400°F air fryer or 500°F broiler), the skin alone can get very crispy, but it won’t have the extra crunch of a starchy coating.
3. *Flavor*:
- *Corn Flour*: Adds a subtle, sweet corn flavor that complements the chicken, especially with savory or spicy seasonings. It’s mild but can enhance BBQ or Southwestern-style wings.
- *Potato Flour*: Imparts a faint earthy, potato-like taste, which is neutral but slightly richer than corn flour. It pairs well with bold sauces like Buffalo or garlic-parmesan.
- *Unaltered Wings*: The flavor is purely the chicken skin, seasonings, and any browning from the Maillard reaction. Baking powder doesn’t add taste (if aluminum-free), so the wings taste “cleaner” and more like traditional wings.
4. *Appearance*:
- *Corn/Potato Flour*: Creates a more uniform, golden-brown coating, giving the wings a polished, restaurant-style look. The flour helps hide any unevenness in the skin from sous vide.
- *Unaltered Wings*: The skin browns naturally, but the color may be less even, especially if some areas are thinner or have more fat. Still attractive, but less “coated” in appearance.
5. *Sauce Adherence*:
- *Corn/Potato Flour*: The starchy coating provides more surface area for sauces to cling to, making them ideal for heavily sauced wings (e.g., Buffalo, honey BBQ). The flour absorbs some sauce, keeping it from sliding off.
- *Unaltered Wings*: Sauces stick well to crispy skin, but less so than a floured surface. For lightly sauced or dry-rubbed wings, this isn’t an issue, but heavily sauced wings may feel slicker.
Practical Considerations
- *How to Apply*: After sous vide (145°F for 2 hours, as recommended), pat wings dry thoroughly. Toss with 1 tsp baking powder per pound of wings, plus salt and spices. Then, lightly dust with *1–2 tbsp corn flour or potato flour* per pound, shaking off excess to avoid a heavy coating. Too much flour can make the texture gummy or cakey.
- *Air Fryer vs. Broiler*:
- *Air Fryer (400°F, 8–12 minutes)*: Flour-dusted wings shine here, as the circulating heat crisps the starchy coating evenly, mimicking deep-frying.
- *Broiler (500°F, 5–8 minutes)*: Flour works well but requires close monitoring, as the starch can burn faster than plain skin. Flip wings and check frequently.
- *Corn Flour vs. Potato Flour*:
- *Corn Flour*: Lighter, more delicate crunch; better for a subtle coating or if you want a less noticeable crust. Easier to find (e.g., masa harina or fine cornmeal).
- *Potato Flour*: Crunchier, slightly denser coating; ideal for a more pronounced fried texture. Less common but available in specialty stores or online.
My Recommendation
- *If you want classic wings*: Skip the flour and stick with *baking powder alone* (1 tsp per pound, aluminum-free) for a crispy, natural skin that highlights the sous vide juiciness. This is perfect for traditional Buffalo or dry-rubbed wings, where the skin’s texture is the star. Air fry at 400°F for 10–12 minutes, flipping halfway.
- *If you want a fried-like crunch*: Use a *light dusting of corn flour* (1 tbsp per pound) after the baking powder. It adds a subtle, crispy crust that mimics fried wings without overpowering the chicken’s flavor. It’s great for sauced wings or if you’re serving a crowd that loves a coated texture. Air fryer is the best finishing method here.
- *When to use potato flour*: Choose potato flour if you want a bolder, crunchier coating or are making heavily sauced wings, as its absorbency holds sauces well. Use sparingly (1 tbsp per pound) to avoid a thick crust.
Why Recipes Suggest Flour
- *Post-Sous Vide Skin*: Sous vide can leave the skin softer or slightly rubbery due to moisture retention, even with baking powder. A starchy flour helps absorb that moisture and creates a new crispy layer, compensating for any textural inconsistencies.
- *Fried Wing Appeal*: Many recipes aim to replicate the crunchy exterior of deep-fried wings, and corn or potato flour gets closer to that ideal, especially in an air fryer.
Pro Tip
- For the best of both worlds, combine approaches: Use baking powder for crisp skin, then add a **very light dusting** of corn flour (shake off excess) for a touch of extra crunch. Season with salt, garlic powder, and paprika before air frying to boost flavor.
- If using flour, ensure wings are bone-dry post-sous vide (pat with paper towels and air-dry in the fridge for 30–60 minutes if time allows) to maximize crispiness.
If you’re leaning toward a specific sauce or style (e.g., Buffalo, BBQ, or Asian-inspired), let me know, and I can tailor seasoning or flour recommendations to match!
VRGHR> (At this point, I had enough information to lay out the basics of a recipe for the result I had been inspired to create, as follows: ~Vrghr)
I have an idea for a sauce coating already. It is based off a combination of 3/4lb bacon, 2 medium onions, 2 tablespoons sweet BBQ sauce (like KC Masterpiece or Sweet Baby Rays), and 2 tablespoons of a Gochujang sauce (not paste).
I'll prepare that first by mixing the BBQ and Gochujang sauces then coating the sliced onion and chopped bacon in the mix. That all gets air-fried until crispy and the onions are starting to char. (This is the Bacon Onion Fry-up from my prior recipe. ~Vrghr)
I'm planning to mix half of that with a marinade of 1/4C honey, 1/4C Soy Sauce, 1/4C BBQ sauce (same as used in the fry-up), 1/4C Gochujang sauce (same again), 2 Tablespoons rice vinegar for some acid, 1 teaspoon each garlic and onion powder, and 1/4 teaspoon cayenne powder ( This came from some web ideas from a "Hot Honey Chicken", but altered to make it Gochujang-BBQ ~Vrghr). I'll blend it all together until smooth.
That will get distributed between the bags of chicken wings before those are added to the sous vide. When the sous vide cook is done, the wings come out and get patted dry while the sauce from the bags is added to the remaining onion-bacon fry up and reduced in a pot until thickened.
The wings will get tossed in your recommended baking powder and seasoned flour and air fried. The fried wings will be tossed with the reduced sauce mixture and more drizzled on top of the plated wings. Perhaps I'll garnish with chopped chives?
GROK> Your sauce and coating plan sounds absolutely incredible—bold, savory, sweet, spicy, and umami-packed with that crispy bacon-onion backbone! The combination of sous vide wings, baking powder + corn flour for crispiness, and your complex bacon-gochujang-BBQ sauce is a winning strategy. I love the thought you’ve put into layering flavors and textures, from the marinade to the air-fried finish and garnish. Below, I’ll evaluate your approach, offer some tweaks to optimize the process and results, and address how the sauce will interact with the sous vide and air-frying steps, ensuring the wings shine with your vision.
Analysis of Your Sauce and Method
1. *Sauce Components*:
- *Bacon-Onion Fry-Up (3/4 lb bacon, 2 medium onions, 2 tbsp BBQ sauce, 2 tbsp gochujang sauce)*:
- Air-frying the bacon and onions coated in sweet BBQ (e.g., KC Masterpiece or Sweet Baby Ray’s) and gochujang sauce creates a crispy, caramelized base with smoky, sweet, and spicy notes. The bacon’s fat will render, infusing the onions with richness, while the sauces char slightly, adding depth.
- *Effect*: This forms a flavorful, textural component that’s both a mix-in for the marinade and a base for the final sauce. The charring enhances umami and complements the wings’ juicy sous vide texture.
- *Marinade (1/4 cup each: honey, soy sauce, BBQ sauce, gochujang sauce; 2 tbsp rice vinegar; 1 tsp each garlic powder, onion powder; 1/4 tsp cayenne)*:
- Blending half the crispy bacon-onion mix with this marinade creates a smooth, viscous sauce with sweet (honey, BBQ), salty (soy), spicy (gochujang, cayenne), and tangy (rice vinegar) elements. The garlic and onion powders reinforce the savory backbone, while the bacon-onion blend adds smokiness and texture.
- *Effect in Sous Vide*: Adding this marinade to the sous vide bags infuses the wings with flavor during the 145°F, 2-hour cook. The low temperature ensures the sugars (honey, BBQ) don’t burn, and the soy and vinegar penetrate the meat slightly, enhancing juiciness and taste.
- *Final Sauce (sous vide bag liquid + remaining bacon-onion fry-up, reduced)*:
- Combining the sous vide bag juices (rich with chicken fat and marinade flavors) with the reserved crispy bacon-onion mix and reducing it creates a thick, glossy sauce that ties everything together. The reduction concentrates flavors, balancing the sweetness and heat while incorporating the wings’ natural juices.
- *Effect*: This sauce will coat the air-fried wings beautifully, with the bacon-onion bits adding texture and the reduced consistency ensuring it clings without making the crispy skin soggy.
2. *Sous Vide Integration*:
- Cooking the wings at *145°F for 2 hours* (as recommended) with the marinade in the bags is a smart move. The low temperature keeps the wings juicy, and the marinade’s flavors (especially soy, gochujang, and vinegar) will subtly penetrate the meat without overpowering the chicken’s natural flavor.
- *Note*: The marinade’s high sugar content (honey, BBQ sauce) could make the bag liquid slightly syrupy, but at 145°F, it won’t caramelize or burn, preserving the intended flavor profile.
3. *Air Frying with Baking Powder + Corn Flour*:
- After sous vide, patting the wings dry and coating them with *baking powder (1 tsp per pound)* and a *light dusting of corn flour (1 tbsp per pound)*, as recommended, will ensure a crispy, golden exterior. The baking powder raises the skin’s pH for browning, and the corn flour adds a delicate, fried-like crunch.
- Season the flour with a pinch of salt, pepper, and perhaps a touch of garlic powder to echo the marinade’s flavors.
- *Air frying at 400°F for 10–12 minutes* (flipping halfway) will crisp the wings perfectly, creating a crunchy contrast to the juicy interior.
4. *Tossing and Drizzling*:
- Tossing the air-fried wings in the reduced sauce ensures even coating, while drizzling extra on top adds visual appeal and a flavor boost. The bacon-onion bits in the sauce will stick to the corn flour-coated wings, enhancing texture.
- *Chive Garnish*: Chopped chives are a fantastic touch, adding a fresh, mildly oniony note that cuts through the richness and brightens the plate.
Potential Considerations and Tweaks
To make sure your dish comes together flawlessly, here are some refinements and tips to address potential challenges:
1. *Balancing the Marinade in Sous Vide*:
- *Issue*: The marinade is bold and sugar-heavy (honey, BBQ sauce, gochujang), which is great for flavor but could dominate the chicken if too much is used in the sous vide bags. Excess liquid might also dilute the wings’ natural juices.
- *Tweak*: Use a modest amount of marinade in the bags—about *1–2 tbsp per pound of wings*. This ensures flavor infusion without overwhelming the meat or creating too much liquid. Reserve extra marinade for the final sauce reduction if needed.
- *Pro Tip*: Before sealing the bags, massage the marinade into the wings to ensure even distribution. If using a vacuum sealer, double-seal to prevent leaks from the viscous marinade.
2. *Managing Bacon-Onion Fry-Up*:
- *Issue*: Air-frying bacon and onions until crispy and slightly charred can produce a lot of rendered fat, which might make the mix greasy if not drained properly.
- *Tweak*: After air-frying (e.g., 375–400°F for 15–20 minutes, shaking occasionally), drain the bacon-onion mix on paper towels to remove excess fat. This keeps the blended marinade and final sauce from being overly oily.
- *Pro Tip*: Reserve a small amount of bacon fat (1–2 tsp) to add to the final sauce reduction for extra richness without greasiness.
3. *Reducing the Final Sauce*:
- *Issue*: The sous vide bag liquid (chicken juices + marinade) combined with the bacon-onion mix might be thin initially, and over-reducing could make it too sticky or intense due to the sugars.
- *Tweak*: Reduce the sauce over medium heat in a saucepan, stirring frequently, until it coats the back of a spoon (about 5–10 minutes). If it’s too thick, thin with a splash of water or rice vinegar to maintain a glossy, pourable consistency.
- *Pro Tip*: Taste the sauce during reduction and adjust with a pinch of salt or a dash of gochujang if the sweetness (from honey/BBQ) needs balancing.
4. *Preventing Soggy Skin*:
- *Issue*: Tossing crispy air-fried wings in a thick, wet sauce could soften the corn flour coating if not done carefully, especially with the extra drizzle.
- *Tweak*: Toss the wings in a *light coating* of the reduced sauce (just enough to coat evenly) and serve immediately. Drizzle extra sauce sparingly on the plated wings, focusing on the meatier parts rather than the crispier skin areas.
- *Pro Tip*: For maximum crispiness, serve extra sauce on the side for dipping, letting diners control the sauciness.
5. *Corn Flour Amount*:
- *Issue*: The corn flour dusting needs to be light to avoid a heavy or cakey texture, especially since the sauce adds moisture.
- *Tweak*: Stick to *1 tbsp corn flour per pound of wings*, mixed with the baking powder and seasonings (salt, pepper, pinch of garlic powder). Shake off excess flour before air frying to ensure a delicate crunch.
- *Pro Tip*: If you want a slightly thicker coating to hold the sauce better, increase to 1.5 tbsp corn flour per pound, but test on a small batch first.
6. *Chive Garnish Enhancement*:
- *Suggestion*: To elevate the chives, consider mixing them with a pinch of toasted sesame seeds or thinly sliced green onions for added texture and a nod to the gochujang’s Korean influence. Sprinkle just before serving to keep them fresh.
How the Sauce Complements the Sous Vide Wings
- *Flavor Synergy*: The sous vide wings (145°F, 2 hours) will be juicy and tender, with a subtle infusion of the marinade’s sweet-spicy-umami notes. The air-fried corn flour coating adds crunch, while the bacon-gochujang-BBQ sauce brings bold, smoky, and slightly sticky richness that clings to the coating. The rice vinegar and cayenne provide a tangy-spicy kick to balance the sweetness, and the bacon-onion bits add savory depth and texture.
- *Texture Contrast*: The crispy corn flour-coated skin contrasts with the tender, juicy meat, and the sauce’s glossy thickness (with crispy bacon-onion pieces) adds a satisfying chew. The chive garnish cuts through the richness with a fresh pop.
- *Visual Appeal*: The golden-brown wings, glossy with sauce and flecked with bacon-onion bits, topped with vibrant green chives, will look stunning and appetizing.
Final Recommended Process
Here’s a streamlined version of your plan with the tweaks incorporated:
1. *Prepare Bacon-Onion Fry-Up*:
- Slice 2 medium onions thinly and chop 3/4 lb bacon into small pieces. Mix with 2 tbsp each BBQ sauce (e.g., Sweet Baby Ray’s) and gochujang sauce (not paste).
- Air-fry at 375°F for 15–20 minutes, shaking every 5 minutes, until crispy and onions are slightly charred. Drain on paper towels, reserving 1–2 tsp bacon fat if desired.
2. *Make Marinade*:
- Blend half the bacon-onion mix with 1/4 cup each honey, soy sauce, BBQ sauce, gochujang sauce, 2 tbsp rice vinegar, 1 tsp each garlic and onion powder, and 1/4 tsp cayenne until smooth.
3. *Sous Vide Wings*:
- Season wings lightly with salt, then add 1–2 tbsp marinade per pound of wings to vacuum-seal bags. Sous vide at **145°F for 2 hours**. Pat wings dry thoroughly post-cook; reserve bag liquid.
4. *Prepare Final Sauce*:
- Combine reserved bag liquid, remaining bacon-onion fry-up, and reserved bacon fat (if using) in a saucepan. Reduce over medium heat until thickened (5–10 minutes), adjusting with water or vinegar if needed.
5. *Air Fry Wings*:
- Toss dried wings with *1 tsp baking powder* and *1 tbsp corn flour* per pound, plus salt, pepper, and a pinch of garlic powder. Air fry at *400°F for 10–12 minutes*, flipping halfway, until golden and crispy.
6. *Toss and Serve*:
- Lightly toss wings in a portion of the reduced sauce to coat. Plate, drizzle sparingly with extra sauce, and garnish with chopped chives (optional: add sesame seeds or green onions). Serve with extra sauce on the side for dipping.
Additional Notes
- *Scaling*: If making a large batch (e.g., 3–4 lbs wings), scale the marinade and bacon-onion mix proportionally but reduce the marinade in the sous vide bags slightly (e.g., 1 tbsp per pound) to avoid excess liquid.
- *Storage*: If prepping ahead, store the bacon-onion fry-up and marinade separately in the fridge for up to 2 days. Reheat the sauce gently before reducing with sous vide juices.
- *Pairings*: These wings would pair beautifully with a cooling side like cucumber salad, coleslaw, or kimchi to complement the gochujang’s heat, or with fries for a classic pub vibe.
Your recipe is already a showstopper, and with these tweaks, it’ll be both foolproof and unforgettable. If you want to refine the spice level, suggest sides, or troubleshoot any step during cooking, let me know! Enjoy those wings—they sound like a flavor explosion!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, there you have it, wonderful furs! For all of you (any of you?) that managed to wade through that tsunami of text, Bless You! Wuff is honored that you devoted that much time to reading all this! (and did you really not have anything better to do? *GRIN*)
What does Vrghr think of Grok's final recommendation? Based on all wuff's experience and trial & errors in the kitchen, it certainly looks legit! Now, all air fryers are different, just like all ovens, so wuffy is going to take the recommended air frying times under advisement and watch the results closely to make sure things cook and crisp properly.
But yes, this does appear to be a viable, functional, and even a tasty recipe! And wuff can't wait to try creating it and presenting the results to his followers here (and to his coworkers to taste and enjoy as well!)
Vrghr is thinking that, when used as a tool and combined with a living person's ideas and creativity, this AI stuff could be very beneficial. Sure, there's vast capability for abuse, just like all our endeavors. But that doesn't mean it should be trashed outright. Lets hope we can continue to find the silver lining for what might otherwise be a very stormy future.
Bon Appetite!
but also you have knowledge enough of cooking to decern most of this info for your use.
i might have learned something unusable reading that (as i don't have either device) but got good info
usually if i'm wondering if a fact or 2 is correct, i'll usually just google that bit of it to confirm
In this case, Vrghr started out from the Google path, but that's when the discrepancies mentioned started showing up between the different links. Rather than wading through even more links and trying to sort some wheat from the chaff, wuff decided to let the AI search engine loose and see what it came up with.
And my, did if ever "come up" with stuff! *grin*
i do like when it explains why it is choosing the things it said though as it adds some clarity, I can't wait to see what you do with your new knowledge
And wuffy is putting together his shopping list and checking work calendar for good chances to find time to whip this dish out for his coworkers to (be guinea pigs on) enjoy! *grin*
Vix
Even if the name DOES sound like something out of an anime cooking show! LOL " Sous Vide Air Fryer Hot Honey BBQ Gochujang Crispy Chicken Wings "
Vix
If not, like me, you might only catch bigger errors.
When Vrghr asked a few other questions, Grok displayed the number of sites and references scanned for the answers. That also helps in analyzing wuff's belief in the results. Answers with only a few reference sites have a much greater chance of bias or error.
In this instance, it was the "hybrid" approach. Grok provided analysis and citations for specific questions, and wuffy provided the foundation for the recipe and expected dish. Then Grok offered tips and refinements. That certainly seems a good way to employ AI in general. :)
;-P
I haz no culinary skills (Worth the sentiment). Not. One. Momma tried valiantly, and various friends/acquaintances over the following decades, but that's a gene that seems to be absent in me.
While I HAVE mastered the art of boiling water, and can usually operate a toaster with decent results (That don't have the fire alarm announcing them!), for me, I've always considered 'M.R.E.'s' to be 'A.I. foods!' I can chuck a pack with a fair degree of accuracy, and distance! Maybe that'll come in handy someday?
Still... I do enjoy good eats, and have all the respect for people who can create 'em!
Meanwhile, after reading you Post, I'll just replace this shirt, 'cause of all the drool you caused. Yeah, that's mah story an' I'm stickin' to eet!
:-D
Wuffy has managed to educate a few of the "barely boils water" folks in use of an instant pot, at least to the point where they can create an edible result 4 out of 5 tries if they stick to some of the basics. Perhaps, one day, wuff can get on a telecom via GoTo, or TEAMS, or some other app and offer you a "3,000 mile spatula" session to lead you through an Instant Pot creation or two of your choice?
Oh, 'case you're wondering, that "3,000 mile" term came from back in the day when wuffy worked at an equipment depot for the Air Force and used to lead site technicians on the other side of the world in diagnosing and repairing their on-site systems so we wouldn't need to fly a repair team out to them. We called it using the 3,000 mile screwdriver. *grin*
As for MRE-Tossing; that sounds handy. They ought to make it an annual festival event here. We have Fort Carson Army Base south of the town, so they would be a prime spot for the sport! Not sure there are any other MRE-Tossers nearby, but the town of Manito Springs has an annual Fruit Cake Toss in the fall. It's a lot of fun! Many different categories too, from "unassisted" (just fling it), various age groups, and "assisted" where folks build catapults, slings, etc., to aid the toss. It's a lot of fun to watch!
(((Hugs back)))