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Something about the fat/muscle guy fandom...
18 years ago
OK folks, I'm putting my flame shields up. I don't know how you guys feel about this, but it's something I've gotta get off my chest. Feel free to set your comments to stun or whatever, but just hear me out.
It's about the fandom.
I go on sites like the /bara/ board on anonib, and I talk to folks who go and "collect" porn, and more and more I'm seeing a disturbing trend. "OH that's so cute, I want (insert comic here) translated" or "Can anyone post scans of this" or "OMG all the art sites are shutting down / not posting any porn anymore..." is all I'm hearing from people seeking j-porn of the fat guy persuasion, and quite frankly I'm tired of it.
You wanna know WHY all the damn porn manga sites are shutting down? Why you're not seeing any *new* porn being uploaded, or why you can't get any new scans? I'll tell you why. People like the ones who troll the bara board keep scanning and posting shit that they don't have permission from the artists to post, that's why.
Japanese artists are getting fed up with people who don't even make an attempt to learn the language stealing their art and posting it on forums when 99% of the j-sites out there explicitly say (albeit in Japanese) that they don't want people taking their shit and posting it anywhere without their permission.
And when it's not stuff that's stolen from websites, it's stuff that's scanned out of books and then reposted. Just tonight I saw some forum poster begging for someone to upload a full scan of the title comic for Jiraiya's new comic collection, and I posted a reply stating that they should just go out and buy the damn book from Rainbow Shoppers. "OMG, what....is this book rare or something?? why isn't anyone posting scans of it?" Yeah. You know what, I own the damn book. In fact, I own both of Jiraiya's damn books and the Kumanchu t-shirt (which was designed by the man himself.) But I sure as hell am not gonna scan it for you. You like the artist, you buy the damn book and support them. It's NOT HARD TO GET. Better yet, how about you try to make some attempt to learn Japanese, go to the website, buy the damn book, and maybe, oh, I don't know, READ IT. Maybe then you'll see that Jiraiya's comics aren't just pretty pictures to fap to, that maybe - just maybe - they have decent PLOTS.
Honestly, this is the reason why Japanese debu/bara fans have such a low opinion of their English-speaking counterparts. We, in general, are lazy when it comes to actually learning Japanese. The very existence of the scene was pretty much the exact reason for me majoring in the language in the first place. So don't go telling me you can't do it.
And for those of you that say "oh, I don't have any interest in Japanese culture/language, I just wanna get pretty pictures to jerk off to, and I want them free and fast" ...well then you're part of the problem. People who say that, and the lackeys that enable them by scanning what manga/doujin they do manage to get are the exact reason why Japanese artists have given up on maintaining their own websites, put passwords up to block content, hold Japanese-only doujinshi conventions, keep non-Japanese from buying their doujin by refusing to ship to non-Japanese addresses, post in areas that non-Japanese speakers can't normally get to (news flash! They're still doing art! Just not where you guys can get to it) ...etc. So yeah. Thanks a lot. You brought it upon yourselves, so deal with it.
And no, don't beg me to translate stuff for you. Don't ask me to scan Jiraiya's books for you, don't ask me to post any new art to a forum if it's not my own. It's not my place to post it wherever. Trading I don't have so much of a problem with but I only share my collection with people I know and trust, and I make sure that whoever is getting it knows 1) who did it and 2) that I don't want them to post it up or upload it online.
So there's the rub. One argument people are going to have is "What about spreading awareness about artists? We give them exposure by posting their stuff online." That may be true, but if an artist explicitly says that they don't want to have their stuff out there on other sites without their permission, then you sure as hell had better not post it on other sites without their permission. You want to post it.....get their permission. Duh. What, that's going to involve learning Japanese and actually asking them for permission like a decent human being? OMG! No, really. Do it. You want to post it so badly, do the right thing and ask. At least make an effort, even if it's only in English. Or find a friend who knows Japanese and ask them to write the email. Something.
At least make an effort to do the right thing.
It's about the fandom.
I go on sites like the /bara/ board on anonib, and I talk to folks who go and "collect" porn, and more and more I'm seeing a disturbing trend. "OH that's so cute, I want (insert comic here) translated" or "Can anyone post scans of this" or "OMG all the art sites are shutting down / not posting any porn anymore..." is all I'm hearing from people seeking j-porn of the fat guy persuasion, and quite frankly I'm tired of it.
You wanna know WHY all the damn porn manga sites are shutting down? Why you're not seeing any *new* porn being uploaded, or why you can't get any new scans? I'll tell you why. People like the ones who troll the bara board keep scanning and posting shit that they don't have permission from the artists to post, that's why.
Japanese artists are getting fed up with people who don't even make an attempt to learn the language stealing their art and posting it on forums when 99% of the j-sites out there explicitly say (albeit in Japanese) that they don't want people taking their shit and posting it anywhere without their permission.
And when it's not stuff that's stolen from websites, it's stuff that's scanned out of books and then reposted. Just tonight I saw some forum poster begging for someone to upload a full scan of the title comic for Jiraiya's new comic collection, and I posted a reply stating that they should just go out and buy the damn book from Rainbow Shoppers. "OMG, what....is this book rare or something?? why isn't anyone posting scans of it?" Yeah. You know what, I own the damn book. In fact, I own both of Jiraiya's damn books and the Kumanchu t-shirt (which was designed by the man himself.) But I sure as hell am not gonna scan it for you. You like the artist, you buy the damn book and support them. It's NOT HARD TO GET. Better yet, how about you try to make some attempt to learn Japanese, go to the website, buy the damn book, and maybe, oh, I don't know, READ IT. Maybe then you'll see that Jiraiya's comics aren't just pretty pictures to fap to, that maybe - just maybe - they have decent PLOTS.
Honestly, this is the reason why Japanese debu/bara fans have such a low opinion of their English-speaking counterparts. We, in general, are lazy when it comes to actually learning Japanese. The very existence of the scene was pretty much the exact reason for me majoring in the language in the first place. So don't go telling me you can't do it.
And for those of you that say "oh, I don't have any interest in Japanese culture/language, I just wanna get pretty pictures to jerk off to, and I want them free and fast" ...well then you're part of the problem. People who say that, and the lackeys that enable them by scanning what manga/doujin they do manage to get are the exact reason why Japanese artists have given up on maintaining their own websites, put passwords up to block content, hold Japanese-only doujinshi conventions, keep non-Japanese from buying their doujin by refusing to ship to non-Japanese addresses, post in areas that non-Japanese speakers can't normally get to (news flash! They're still doing art! Just not where you guys can get to it) ...etc. So yeah. Thanks a lot. You brought it upon yourselves, so deal with it.
And no, don't beg me to translate stuff for you. Don't ask me to scan Jiraiya's books for you, don't ask me to post any new art to a forum if it's not my own. It's not my place to post it wherever. Trading I don't have so much of a problem with but I only share my collection with people I know and trust, and I make sure that whoever is getting it knows 1) who did it and 2) that I don't want them to post it up or upload it online.
So there's the rub. One argument people are going to have is "What about spreading awareness about artists? We give them exposure by posting their stuff online." That may be true, but if an artist explicitly says that they don't want to have their stuff out there on other sites without their permission, then you sure as hell had better not post it on other sites without their permission. You want to post it.....get their permission. Duh. What, that's going to involve learning Japanese and actually asking them for permission like a decent human being? OMG! No, really. Do it. You want to post it so badly, do the right thing and ask. At least make an effort, even if it's only in English. Or find a friend who knows Japanese and ask them to write the email. Something.
At least make an effort to do the right thing.
I know who u must feel and i'm sure as fuck that ur absolutely right....except in one thing, not everyone has the resourses to learn japanese, so, even tho ur right about asking for permision and stuff, I think ur being a little unfair that u practically DEMAND that everyone has to learn japanese to enjoy those artist comics, in my opinion, that's why people do that. Its like if some spanish speaking artists post and publish bara/debu comics in spanish, it would be the same shit, wouldn't it?? People finding or, perhaps, buying them, scaning them and asking for someone o translate them, disregarding the artist's wishes, copyrights and stuff....
I guess I got mad for no reason at all, but I guess it's easy for u to feel that way since u already know japanese, wedge....I just find it really enfuriating that so many good bara/debu artist draw awesome and I cant talk to them cause I dont know japanese and they dont know english or spanish, and I cant even tell them how great they are....But this is just me....
I'm sorry everyone, but, I had to vent a little...
Then someone takes that "stolen" uploaded comic and DEMANDS that someone translate it, and cries like a baby if nobody does. THAT'S mainly what I'm getting tired of. People *can* email their support to an artist in english and the artist will find a way to read it somehow...it's not like it means less to them if the praise is in English.
There's stuff that shouldn't be there, like logan's comics, for example.
Let me add my two cents on this, though I'd separate the various issues you address...
1) Neither Japanese artists nor Debu/Bara artists are the only victims of online art piracy... I don't need to explain that this has become a wide spread practice to anything anyone could get for free; to some Internet is the "all you can eat" of information, be it art or music or software or whatever. This leaves artists little choice: we rather accept the rules of the game (there will always be pirates around, trying to get my shit for free, so better take it easy), or play fair and enforce the law and our rights by taking action against everyone that steals (which is the right thing to do, but demands quite an amount of time and money), or just keep our art offline. If Japanese artists choose the later one, I think it's their choice, and I respect that. Should we blame the fans? Probably, but it also depends on the artist standpoint towards the meaning and importance of their art. After all, this is just PORN we are talking about. On the other hand, I think that ART must be seen by an audience to fulfill its purpose, otherwise is just a hobby I do in my basement for my self pleasure... (like onanism?)
2) Though Japanese artists have a "fandom" in their own country, I don't perceive there's such a thing as a established FANDOM of debu art in western countries, but you got rather two types of fans: the ones who have some artistic interest or taste, or who connect with the art in some level, and the crowd of those who just want jerk off material. If you're talking about the guys of chan boards, let me tell you they're probably the second category. Most of the chan boards are just disrespectful towards artist's efforts, mostly they don't even know the artists' names (perhaps with the exception of the few artists who post their own stuff), they actually "just wanna get pretty pictures to jerk off to, and want them free and fast", so I'd suggest just not to enter them if that's what bothers you. (What are you doing there anyways?) I wouldn't call those guys a "FANDOM" but art leeches...
3) I'm not going to defend the pirates case, that's for sure, and I think you're right about not scanning your goods to support artists. But I tend to see a little bit of a difference between guys who make professional art (and get paid for it) and amateur artists. Scanning published artwork of pro (or semi pro) artists and distributing them it's wrong, period, but I believe it's more a problem of profits for the artist than a situation of actual disrespect for their work... Did you noticed that fans refer to some authors by name (like Jiraiya, Kumagoro, Go Fushimoto and others) just because they got to know them through scans? I don't think scans diminish their fame or respect, but the grossing of their wallets. Did you know one of Jiraiya's book was legally published in Spain (that is in Spanish)? If he wouldn't have reached some level of online exposure this would have never happened... Why don't non-porn Japanese artists close the access to their sites for foreigners with passwords or blocking ips? Because the online exposure is good for the business. Who knows if less known Japanese artists opened themselves to other countries wouldn't have their work distributed worldwide, and earn more money and fame.
Doujinshi in general (amateur comics, some non proprietary, which are mostly self published in smaller editions, some of which deal with shamefaced issues like shota) always had its own inner market in Japan and a kinda standoffish position toward westerners, so I don't think it's a big deal that debu artists don't sell to foreign countries... Why don't we build our own market of western debu "doujin", as much as the furry community already does?
Living in a third world country, I agree with Markwulfgar that it would be impossible to ever buy some things (be it for the ludicrous money exchange rates or because they don't ship here) so I thank someone ever scanned some things otherwise I'd never know... Nevertheless, I managed to buy Japanese books whenever I could, and real fans have no excuse to steal if they actually CAN buy.
4) Different is the case of amateur artists who expose their life online for free (as well as their fetishes, sexual orientations, feelings, etc) all of that reflected in, well, PORN. Being an artist myself I relate to the fact that you put a lot of yourself in what you do, and it is hands down their right to be respected and not have their art posted without permission, which is not only rude, but illegal in many countries (like US). So there's not much to discuss on this subject.
But I think there's also cultural issues regarding nationality and language that some Japanese people must deal with themselves. I totally agree with their claiming for respect, but it's THEIR choice to expose art that compromises them online on the WORLD WIDE web, and shutting down the entrance or access to their art to every foreigner they don't like it's something THEY choose too. Is their decision even to stop making porn. Again, if that's what they want, it's alright. But don't blame ME of your own decisions. I think that putting all foreigners in the same sack is not only unfair but discriminatory, biased and narrow minded... There's not such thing as a world only divided by two languages, Japanese or English, where everyone outside Japan seems to be willing to rip you off... But then again, that's THEIR problem (and is not the case of many Japanese artists I know. There many other reasons why people stop updating or making amateur porn than just the stealing...)
5) I think you already know my opinion on this subject, but let me tell that pretending me to learn a foreign language just to access _PORN_ (!) is the most snob and arrogant thing ever... I wouldn't demand anyone to learn Spanish for that matter, just because that's my mother tongue. Saying you're lazy for not learning a language, is like saying you're lazy for not learning to draw your own porn! Should I see a "Japanese Only" sign and immediately assume the author of the site is lazy for not learning some decent English as I did? When i see the ""Japanese only" sentence I think that the content of the site will be in Japanese and I should deal with it, and that's cool. But to impose on me a "Japanese only" policy as part of a segregational ghetto mentality is something I can't accept. If I want to be part of some "elite Japanese debu scene", then well, it's up to me to pay whatever toll they impose on me (like giving my time and effort to learn a language that's not particularly easy). But I shouldn't expect everyone else to share my passion or commitment for PORN. Do you think that western world denizens like to have anyone imposing on them alien cultural values, not to mention a language? Eastern people don't like that either... So, if Japanese artists like to enclose themselves in their culture or language and not open their minds to others, good for them. There's plenty of good Japanese (and non Japanese) artists that are open minded and like to share whatever they can with others, no matter their language, race or nationality, and those are the ones I think deserve my attention and praise.
6) I don't wanna hop into any drama, and of course I'm not taking this on you personally; just stating my point of view on some subjects, trying to be real. I also realize that the "debu/chubby" artistic community is very limited, we are few and know each other, so I understand your arguments and grievances, and I think that it's good to point out these issues. As I said, art shouldn't be posted without permission, and there should be a respectful environment for artists to showcase their stuff, and that's why I don't like most chan boards, for instance. I was thinking on this for while and still can't find a honest solution for debu artists to post their work (specially those of us who don't make money out of it) and people to appreciate it properly, without shutting the doors off or making it "exclusive". As far as I've seen forums like FA o Y!Gallery seem the best option, in spite of the context (either furry that allows straight porn, or slender yaoi which doesn't allow furry). Perhaps in the future we can manage to find a place of our own. In the meantime, let's just be cool with each other, and build an appreciative conscience for the effort of all kinds of artists.
Gee! I got carried away on this, sorry for the long post...
HUGZ!!