It comes down to a jury ruling. So, basically, a picture of a teacup could be considered child porn if the jury says so. That's not very likely, though. But, because it's a logical 'person' thing and not a 'word of the law' thing, if people see child porn that's what they'll call it, even if it's a furry child. - From Canada

Thank you, Relee.

It sounds more serious situation than I expected. I think I cannot live in Canada...because I cannot draw panty shot and panty on the leg situation of little furry girls.

1. Porn is porn, panty shots are not porn. Naked characters exposing genitals in a lewd fashion, characters licking dildos, etc. that's porn.
You get naked furry characters exposing their lower body areas in tv cartoons almost all the time, and it's not considered porn. Even if those characters had genitals i don't think people would see it as child porn, rather like "anthropomorphic cartoon animal porn" offensive maybe but certainly not child porn.
This of course depends on how human-like or animal-like the characters are. I don't think anyone would say chip and dale fucking is cartoon child porn ; p It would just be "silly/disgusting cartoon animal fetish" or something like that
What I draw is a bit more tricky as I often get in the area of much stronger human-likeness.

Obviously weather something is porn or human or a child is (especially in cartoon art) tricky to decide and the law let's the judge/jury decide when it comes to it.

I am glad to hear opinion from artist like you.
I saw your gallery and found a lot of human-like character. I think that’s another point of discussion. My characters are also human-like body. They have human-like hand and they can stand like human. But they have tails and different ears than human.

If my characters is in completely sexual situation, what do people who don’t like cub porn art say? “You character’s body is same as human kids. So if your characters are in the sexual situation…it’s child porn!” I don’t like such kind of logic…but some people intend to use this type of logic to accuse opponents.

My understanding of the current laws regarding fictional characters that appear under the age of 18, is that said fictional characters must be human. There is NO LAW specifically targeting or even mentioning for that matter, "Furry cubs".

Now i could honestly be wrong. I haven't really read anything in depth about it, but that is my current understanding of it.

Thank you.
You are taling about US law or Canadian law?
You comment makes sense. These laws basically exist to protect "real" kids from sexual crime and abuse.

As far as i can tell from what i just read on wikipedia (just did a quick browse through their page on child porn laws) there is NOTHING anywhere that states specifically "Furry" or "Cub" depictions of under aged, fictional characters.
So that means there's nothing in Canada or the US that specifically targets furry or cub porn of any depicted age range.

Thank you for your information.
I am relieved to hear that cub porn art is not illegal anyway. But some people really hate such kind of materials. I will keep being sensitive to this topic.

Yeah, unfortunately cub porn has always been a touchy subject on this site, and in the furry fandom in general =\

Glad i could help a little though at least.

I am also glad to discuss with you.
If you find new topics, please share that with me.

Sure thing ^^ I'll be sure to keep my eye out for other stuff on the matter

It could allso be argued that since there drawings of creatures that are totaly fictional you cant apply age to them regardless of apperance. there basicly animals with human like shapes.

Yes, that is reaslistic viewpoint of argument. I think the focal point is what viewer feel about cub pron. So if appearance of character looks like human beings, viewer will feel "oh...like child pron...". That's a problem.

yes but from a legal standpoint if it's not even classified as human how can it be child abuse? it's cartoon doodle abuse XD

lol...cartoon abuse...
I imagine that NPO who protect cartoon characters from sexual abuse will exist in future....scary xD

a man in Australia actually got charged for possession of child pornography for having pictures of Bart Simpson on his computer hard drive.



So since Bart Simpson is a real person, becouse the judge ruled theres no difference between a cartoon drawing and a real child. If you kill a cartoon character your a murderer XD

Um...I can't live in Australia...

no sane person should, not untill they get there act together and straighten out there messed up government.

Thanks.
Do you mean some cub pron may be argued in court in future in even US?
Actually to possess lolikon comic in US was judged as illegal recently. I think in near future cub pron may caused some court cases.

Thank you for your information. I did not know that charge for possession of child porn was dropped. But anyway he lost everything he had...job, trust, quiet life...

# Hummmmmmmmmmm! ^v^ Here's a cookie! Lily made it for you!

Lily: Cookies! ^v^ Heeehe!

VvV: Sorry but we don't know anyone from those places! But we do hope you find the anwser to you questions! ^v^ Heehe!

Lily: Take care now! ^v^ Heeehe!

Lily, thank yo for cookies! Yummy!
People in FA gave me fruitful comments.
Those really help me to understand current situatoin and decide future activity in terms of drawing.

Lily: (*^v^*) Your very welcome! Heeehe!

^v^:Ok! Heeehe! Take care!

Even you are in those countries, there's always legal do post them in other website other than their own country's website. (Like pixiv or other H website)

Regards,
ACH

Ummm..you think so?
In those countries, posession (of child pron drawing)is prohibited. So I think location of server and website does not matter.

Yep, sadly after the stupid false report from Japan, the yaoi & yuri of novel & manga was marked as for age 18 or above only. =(

Regards,
ACH

Actually some yaoi comic has quite explicit expression. So some automomys categorized yaoi manga as X-rated materials.
Lolita porn comic has already been x-rated nationwide in Japan.

The worse nightmare's coming...... =(

England has banned child porn like mad, buut cub porn is something i dont think that has been thought about since this country hasent really got that many furrys who roam about

Thanks.
I understood UK situation :)

Generally, the illegality is not enforced unless a person is already in trouble for having child porn. So if a person has been caught with non-fictional images, the fictional images are sometimes ruled as illegal porn as well. The laws themselves are fairly vague, and can be interpreted in a number of ways. Outside of selling products with fictional underage characters, I don't think anyone has really changed what they draw or view in a significant way.

Thanks.
Your comment is interesting and makes sense.
I agree with you about varueness of such kind of law. In Tokyo, the council rejected new law to monitor porn comic with underage characters strictly because of this vagueness of definition of characters.

I don't know how Anthro is regarded in Sweden, but I guess it'd be OK to have cub art.
Sadly, the ones deciding if it is or isn't are the courts, but I doubt it'd be any problem as they aren't "real" cubs.

*shrugs* can't say for sure, but Sweden would be the best bet as far as I know.

Thanks you for your comment.
I am relieved that cub (pron) art is safe in your country.
Anyway Sweden government bans to possess child pron art...have you ever find that someone was arrested for possession of child pron art?

Read about it in magazines.

Camp leader got arrested for taking nude pictures of the kids he was watching. (or something like that, don't remember clearly. It was 4 years ago it happened)
Long story short, he fled the country and returned when the sentence was "forgotten" (this year) and tried to sue the government for the "humiliation" they put him through, and expected them to pay for all his expenses from then.

Dunno how it went, but I don't think they looked at it kindly. <.<;

Intersting...if he wins this case, all sex offenders try to sue goverment for humiliation. Anyway I understand that taking nude of real kids is really NOT allowed at all. All "real" kids are proteced from any sexual crime and exploitation.

This is such huge mess, so annoying, the sad fact is the using fund to crack down on fictional prices of child/cub pornography, when they could be using the money to find actual active pedophiles.

Yes, I agree with you.
To protect real child is a just cause.
True motivation is to eliminat what they don't want to see.

I live in canada, i know CUB porn is allowed, though human drawn childporn (shota/loli) is not allowed, though they don't place charges unless you have some other kind of charge

That's interesting...
So no one was arrested for only possession of child pron art in Canada?

not that i know of. i had this link. i can't remember where it is. but il look for it later, but it was a list of things that were and were not allowed across the usa/canada border Softpaw being one that was allowed.

Maybe border officer was fan of Softpaw :3

The bottom line is it's 100% up to the border officer or police officer who finds it to interpret it as illegal or not. Nobody will just randomly call the police on you for having such items on your computer, to my knowledge. Just be sure it's not actual human underage porn or you will have ME calling the cops on you.

If you're crossing the border, I have one suggestion. Don't bring porn across the border!

I'm in Canada, btw.. and yes, I have multiple examples of friends who have brought furry porn across the border and had it confiscated because the border guard interpreted it as bestiality. Most border guards, in my experience, are able to tell the difference these days though. If you mix underage with that, you might not be so lucky though.

Thank you for yourinformation and comment.
I did not know even furry porn is confiscated by the border guard as bestiality. That is more severe than I expected. But is it actual furry porn or furry pron art?

Adult furry artwork is what I'm talking about. Sketches, paintings, etc, but as I said, most border guards can tell the difference between anthropomorphic artwork (even adult) and bestiality. However, if you get some artwork of non-anthros, I would be careful, particularly if it's one non-anthro and one anthro character.

Thank you.
If I would go across the border of Canada and US, I will NOT bring any my artwork :3
If artoworks are saved in USB flash memory, the border officer will check inside it?

They can and will check everything if they suspect you. If you look like a normal person (ie you don't carry around plushies or wear a tail), you should be fine.

I think I will not bring any storage with cub staff.
Only storage I will bring in is my brain :3

Thanks,
I hope so...but some people sometimes intend to change law for political purpose...to gain support from civil or to divert public attention from something.

I'm calling latest red scare, mccarthy, witch hunt.

Finally found someone who shares my view.

I agree.
Public restrict what they don't want to see and what they don't want to understand. It's the way of the world. If child porn art (not photograph) will be banned completely worldwide, I think sexual abuse of a child will be not eliminated. Then public look for next target to be restricted....It's the way of the world.

how did you find out that..... with sweden cuz i highly belive thats true

In Japan, my country, there has been lot of discussion about restriction law of child porn comic/art, then Canada and Sweden is well know as countries where has already been restricted.

I found the following site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_.....picting_minors

I hope this site helps you to understand what is going on in other countries.

about cub porn i know for a fact its not illigel here in Sweden but normal child porn is i do not know if shota and loli is thoght but i under stand :p

According to this website, any child porn artwork is regarded as child porn.
I found Sweden paragraph of this site was recently updated. Manga tranlator was convicted for possesion of loli manga in Sweden.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/.....s-child-abuse/

animal pron has no jurisdiction in Jamaica, so have fun

Thanks,
How about porn art (not photograph) with fictional child of human?

if there's a just reason for it, then fine... like sex-ed, exams, disease control, etc

Mmh... This is umpleasant for me and for us in general. I've not heard nothing about Furry Cub PrOn. But lately, I've heard about the USA and the Unicef aiming to eradicate Lolicon Anime in Japan.

Here we can see a discussion about it

(Spanish) http://www.anmtvla.com/2010/03/se-a.....-en-japon.html

The reason? "It's for the good of children"... FICTICIAL children...

Thanks, FC
As you mentioned, there are lot of discussion of restriction law between supporters and opponents in Japan. Supporters tried to push through new restriction law under the protection of "fictional child" at Tokyo metropolitan, and this law was rejected due to its vagueness. During discussion in Congress, a lot of famous comic artist and writer kept objecting.
People who love comic art were relieved at this moment, but ther have concern about same thing in future. There are a lot of groups (behind the supporters) who want to enter the position of power by using this topic.

To be honest, nobody makes sure that ban of child porn art eliminate actual child sexual abuse. Most the perpetrator is actual parents and/or relatives according to daily news. Topic of child porn art is actually used for political reason.

*hugs you tightly* The people before me have said it better so I will respond by doing this! *braids your hair and puts cute poofy flowers in it while humming some cheerful songs!*

Thanks, Yunniekunnie
I am near to tears because of your hearty kindness.
I hope all public were like you…gentle person.

*blushes a lil and smiles, wrapping my arms around you and hugging tight* Thank you so much. ^///^ I wish more people were like you as well. Your art always makes me smile and you are one of the nicest people I have ever met. ^///^

In my opinion, this is one of many reasons not to go to Canada. Those other places don't sound very enticing either.

Well...I got it.
As someone mentioned in this journal, there is fear of vagueness. Illegality depends on the border officers...

From my understanding, the images have to be actual photographs, not drawings or art.
Actual photos are considered child porn, real children, not drawings.
I could be wrong though.

Thank you for your comment.
My understanding is almost same as you.
I hope this stuation will not change in future.
Some country tries to ban drawing and art also...

It's only illegal if it's sole purpose was to propagate pornography, in other words sexually gratify underage characters in sexual acts. In these countries, the closer fictional material looks like real human children being raped, the better your chances of getting prosecuted. But cubs, very loosely based off of human anatomy in extremely fictional situations? Most juries and prosecutors won't waste their time.

You know, underage artwork is still illegal in the U.S. if it doesn't posses any artistic merit, and can be "proven" that it was only created in a sexually graphic context. No court can prove this though. I don't commission cub art, I just commission deviant, socially unacceptable material to shock-jock people and kind of poke fun at the law, being deviant. The only person who's been prosecuted for underage artwork in America is one guy, who was really hurting little kids, who also had real child porn, and at that point they said "yep, your lolicon collection will also be included into evidence" although it did nothing to increase the sentence he had committed from the other crimes. While I can't say for sure, I'm pretty sure this is how it is in most other countries, except where pornography is actually illegal in general.

BTW, I commission cub porn from people in Canada. Nobody there is afraid of breaking the rules when it comes to anthropomorphic pornography based on fictional storylines and not based on reality at all.

Information you brought really surprised me. Situation is severer than I expected. I think you are sensitive this topic because you draw porn art....right?

I would like to have two questoins to you.
I would appreciate it if you could answer to them.
1) Do you think my gallery is close to "illegal" or far from?
2) What's difference between cub and deviant?

I do not draw the artwork I post, I commission it from artists like you. Whenever I do business with someone outside of the U.S. I make sure I'm not going to get in trouble, but usually artists know when they are pushing the limits too, and will tell me so.

I don't know what nationality you are, since you said Canada in your journal header, but you use Japanese as well, so I'll try to answer with both.

1) In Canada, your material is illegal, but you will NEVER be prosecuted for it. It doesn't happen. They will enforce the rules exactly the same as America, and will only use cub porn against you if you're hurting children irl and/or have real child porn, then they'll stack the cub art on top of it. Like America, sentencing can be effected by the 'amount' of illegal porn you have, so having a pile of cub art is a bad thing if you're only caught with a few kiddie porn images, since they'll add the cub porn on top of it. Don't hurt kids? Not into real child porn? Then you're safe. They won't even look at you hard, never mind bother you. Totally not worth their time.

In Japan it's similar to America, but a little more strict. In the past five years there's been a movement to stop uncensored pornography in Japan, with a few politicians starting "witch hunts" to prosecute people who sell or host sites with uncensored pornography, even artwork. This is to try to attract votes from the religious sector of the country. A similar social stigma exists in America with Christians, but the problem isn't that bad over here. But, even when the Japanese government does this, they only attack "big" production companies and fine them, maybe a little bit of jail time for really bad offenders, and then the witch hunt stops, and everything goes back to normal. You can entirely avoid this by censoring your artwork just the tiniest bit, pretty much showing everything still, but making some minor effort to censor it. If you show any censorship effort at all, the courts won't touch it. If you're posting porn on a site hosted outside of Japan, they won't go after you either. Basically, don't worry about getting caught. Little or no chance of it happening, especially to someone like you.

2) The difference between cub and deviant? Not sure what you're asking. Cub and lolicon can mean pretty much the same thing. Lolicon is anything underage, cub just puts the "anthro" tag on it too. As far as being real or simply just deviant, if you display that you're a real pedophile in real life, and/or would like to see your fantasies acted out, or base your loli/cub artwork off of real events or people, then any country will start looking at you more closely. If you just say you think small, petite, cute characters are sexually attractive, and you're only using the cub/loli label to be socially deviant and taboo, but would NEVER hurt kids irl and don't want to, then nobody can do anything to punish you, except criticize you socially for being odd.


If I didn't answer your questions, or if you'd like more advice, just let me know. You're fine posting what you do online, whether you're from Canada or Japan. Just don't pretend that you want to hurt children irl, or people will look closer and may prosecute, America, Canada, Japan, or a variety of countries.

I misknew your activity in FA. I assumed you drew pics in your gallery. Anyway your communication way with artists in various countries looks nice. I understand you respect background of each country where artist lives.

My nationality is Japan, so I knew the current situation about regulation of comic porn in Japan well. My understanding is almost same as yours. I prefer to know the situation in Canada because sometimes Japanese politicians follow US/Canada/EU laws and laws in Canada are one of the most severe.

I appreciate your info about laws in Canada. I was little bit surprised that my works are illegal in Canada. I will pay attention type of arts to be posted in FA although I will not be prosecuted by only cub arts. As you pointed out, I am safe because I am not into real chid porn. But if "witch hunts" like activity occurrs in future, artists who posted cub porn might draw the attention of authorities (or similar groups).

The reason behind my question about difference between cub and deviant is that I found "I don't commission cub art, I just commission deviant, " in your previous comment. I visited your page and I found some cub art in your gellery. So I wanted to know the differences.

I read your comment about cub and deviant, and I have simple question. Definition of cub and deviant depends on artists motivation? I think it depends on what others think about.

Thanks you for your comments. Discussion with you is very interesting for me.

Well, like this image for example:

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/3691055/

"I" say it's underage, but actually if I didn't say that, people would assume she's adult, because that's what's normal. The fact that "I" classified it as underage/cub is meaningless, both in legality and morality, because it can obviously be interpreted in many different ways. People who don't like cub art can just imagine the image is of an adult character. For my cub fans, all I have to do is imply that she's underage, and their imagination takes over. The difference between cub and deviant artwork is just in how you label it. You could simply say "Hey, I draw furs that looks closer to real animals, so they're small and cute." rather than saying "It's cub porn".

So why directly imply the nature of the material, rather than let your fans make their own assumptions without your intervention. For me, I do it because I like the fact I can offend people with a twist of a word. I say "cub" and suddenly they throw a fit, as if I said the N-word or something (don't know if the admins would key off of me saying it). I can talk about fox cubs frolicking in the wild, or panda cubs at the zoo, but when I say "furry cub yiff" suddenly people feel offended, as if I'm personally insulting them. The hate, the social stigma, the irrational behavior is THEIR creation, not mine. I like showing people how stupid labels are, showing them how shallow their socially-programmed beliefs are, and maybe inspire them to become their own person and quit being so easily offended.

I agree that proper labeling could cause less opportunity to be accused. However labeling which describes "this is little character, not cub" could be considered to be "excuse", and could be subject to be accused. People who intentionally accuse cub porn artists or fans do not care of content of topics, they are just looking for subjects to be attacked. I recommend not showing anything regarding cub porn description rather than labeling with various words. Of course, I (and you may) know such a things are too ridiculous.