Beefcake backlash.
15 years ago
Okay, so it's not exactly a secret that I've got a thing for muscly guys, and this sorta spilled over into my comic i.s.o. (and yeah, to a large extent, the Class Menagerie too). And I am well aware not everyone else does, honestly.
But I find it somewhat frustrating that I've heard some people simply won't read i.s.o. because there's "too much beef." Sure, the comic is not for everyone, lord knows the Furry Gay College Comic is a well-tread path. Still, seriously? The beef? So, like, does that mean they also won't watch any movies/television shows/music videos, because 90% of the women featured are just as above-average in body type as my characters are? Oh, right, I forgot that it's okay to force artifical physical standards on women [sarcasm].
The fact is, unlike some comics (yes, even The CM), the beef factor is an actual legitimate plot point of i.s.o. As a coming of age story, Cody has serious issues with being gay versus appearing typically "masculine", and he's overcompensated with his size out of fear of having the crap beaten out of him. He then spends the comic not only learning that being gay may or may not be related to his (or anyone else's) appearance, but that he's affected his ability to make first impressions with his excess shows of testosterone, and now he has to undo that damage.
I suppose I take these criticisms a little personally because Cody's physical psychoses are somewhat autobiographical. No, no, I don't LOOK anything like him (don't I wish!)...if anything, I fit the gay stereotype rather well (shrimpy, thin, squeaky voice) and I had a lot more to want to hide. I can assure you that growing up, the fear of "looking" gay can severely affect one's social growth. Through early grade school, I was an extremely outgoing kid, but I withdrew considerably from social circles during middle school through college. Fretting about your strange inner desires is an excellent way to isolate yourself, lemme tell you. Friends can't suspect you of being different if you don't let them get close. Cody merely chose a more aggressive way of keeping everyone at bay than I did. He and I had the same conclusion: being gay AND weak is a fatal combination, we just dealt with it differently. I'd like to think it's different for gay kids growing up now, but I certainly doubt it is for ALL of them.
Anyway, getting back to Cody...yeah, there's a pretty high number of fit characters in my comic--as the *leads*. I've been told it's an unrealistic percentage, even though the backgrounds are filled with perfectly normal-sized incidentals everywhere.
It's been my understanding that *generally*, athletic guys tend to hang around with other athletic guys. It's also not at all uncommon for athletic gay males to be attracted to other athletic males...I'd say at the very least, this is the case the majority of the time. So, I chose a lead who is a bodybuilding football player/martial artist. And his best friend is, shockingly, another bodybuilder (his gym buddy). Over the course of the story, there is significant sexual tension for Cody with three other guys who are all in terrific shape (okay, okay, I will grant you it's a massive coincidence that he ends up accidentally *rooming* with one, fine, but everyone else lives elsewhere ) And the main nemesis in the story seems to be the one guy who doesn't fear Cody (since Cody's *smaller*).
Yet from the sound of the feedback, it'd be somehow MORE realistic for Cody to be best buds with a rotund basement-dwelling fanboy geek, and then be lusting after a bunch of 90-pound skinny jeans-clad twinks? Because with Cody's lifestyle, there wouldn't be anyone else athletic around a 25,000-student campus that he would gravitate towards or relate to. Uh-huh.
Basically, I guess what I did wrong was choose a beefy character to be the lead in the first place! After all, we all know jocks can't possibly have lives other than being sidekicks, bullies, or superheroes.
Dunno. I'm rambling, this is something I've wanted to get off my chest for some time. I worked hard to make something which is unquestionably for a bit of a niche market...I was just hoping it'd spill over a little beyond that. Ah well. I'm not sorry I did what I did. Can't stop me from venting a little, no?
Meh, this is like the fourth time I've tried rewriting this. I didn't get much sleep last night and somehow my fuzzy brain decided it was a good idea to finish it now. I might delete this when I've slept better @.@
But I find it somewhat frustrating that I've heard some people simply won't read i.s.o. because there's "too much beef." Sure, the comic is not for everyone, lord knows the Furry Gay College Comic is a well-tread path. Still, seriously? The beef? So, like, does that mean they also won't watch any movies/television shows/music videos, because 90% of the women featured are just as above-average in body type as my characters are? Oh, right, I forgot that it's okay to force artifical physical standards on women [sarcasm].
The fact is, unlike some comics (yes, even The CM), the beef factor is an actual legitimate plot point of i.s.o. As a coming of age story, Cody has serious issues with being gay versus appearing typically "masculine", and he's overcompensated with his size out of fear of having the crap beaten out of him. He then spends the comic not only learning that being gay may or may not be related to his (or anyone else's) appearance, but that he's affected his ability to make first impressions with his excess shows of testosterone, and now he has to undo that damage.
I suppose I take these criticisms a little personally because Cody's physical psychoses are somewhat autobiographical. No, no, I don't LOOK anything like him (don't I wish!)...if anything, I fit the gay stereotype rather well (shrimpy, thin, squeaky voice) and I had a lot more to want to hide. I can assure you that growing up, the fear of "looking" gay can severely affect one's social growth. Through early grade school, I was an extremely outgoing kid, but I withdrew considerably from social circles during middle school through college. Fretting about your strange inner desires is an excellent way to isolate yourself, lemme tell you. Friends can't suspect you of being different if you don't let them get close. Cody merely chose a more aggressive way of keeping everyone at bay than I did. He and I had the same conclusion: being gay AND weak is a fatal combination, we just dealt with it differently. I'd like to think it's different for gay kids growing up now, but I certainly doubt it is for ALL of them.
Anyway, getting back to Cody...yeah, there's a pretty high number of fit characters in my comic--as the *leads*. I've been told it's an unrealistic percentage, even though the backgrounds are filled with perfectly normal-sized incidentals everywhere.
It's been my understanding that *generally*, athletic guys tend to hang around with other athletic guys. It's also not at all uncommon for athletic gay males to be attracted to other athletic males...I'd say at the very least, this is the case the majority of the time. So, I chose a lead who is a bodybuilding football player/martial artist. And his best friend is, shockingly, another bodybuilder (his gym buddy). Over the course of the story, there is significant sexual tension for Cody with three other guys who are all in terrific shape (okay, okay, I will grant you it's a massive coincidence that he ends up accidentally *rooming* with one, fine, but everyone else lives elsewhere ) And the main nemesis in the story seems to be the one guy who doesn't fear Cody (since Cody's *smaller*).
Yet from the sound of the feedback, it'd be somehow MORE realistic for Cody to be best buds with a rotund basement-dwelling fanboy geek, and then be lusting after a bunch of 90-pound skinny jeans-clad twinks? Because with Cody's lifestyle, there wouldn't be anyone else athletic around a 25,000-student campus that he would gravitate towards or relate to. Uh-huh.
Basically, I guess what I did wrong was choose a beefy character to be the lead in the first place! After all, we all know jocks can't possibly have lives other than being sidekicks, bullies, or superheroes.
Dunno. I'm rambling, this is something I've wanted to get off my chest for some time. I worked hard to make something which is unquestionably for a bit of a niche market...I was just hoping it'd spill over a little beyond that. Ah well. I'm not sorry I did what I did. Can't stop me from venting a little, no?
Meh, this is like the fourth time I've tried rewriting this. I didn't get much sleep last night and somehow my fuzzy brain decided it was a good idea to finish it now. I might delete this when I've slept better @.@
FA+

Sounds to me like these whiners have some body issues of their own! ;)
I do wonder about that. Some people have noted furries were sometimes bullied as kids, and are by nature wary of jocks.
But seriously, I think it's a small but vocal minority of people who are so put off by the mere thought of the idea that they're unwilling to put their preconceptions aside. And that's their problem.
However, I do think that there is sufficient enough muscle in ISO to have it venture into kink territory. On a number of occasions I heard friends/acquaintances refer to ISO as "that muscle comic". I'm almost certain that they all knew it wasn't SPECIFICALLY about muscles nor was it wank material with no plot, but they still associated the comic with that theme.
This is probably because of the high concentration of furry art that is fetish oriented. Should people let that influence their interpretation? Probably not, but that's just the nature of things. I don't think it's a good or bad thing. You wrote from the heart and you truly impressed your audience. So to hell with furry marketing. :)
Now see, that I don't get. I've never researched but I can't believe there's not some other gay comic with more muscle, certainly more of it nude, that wouldn't get that label. I dunno, maybe I should be flattered? XD
That's a possibility too, I guess. Maybe I should slap the "PG-13" tag more prominently on the cover. Oy.
given how much feminine the male world is turning into in the last few years.
For example :
The Twilight sparkle-pires
The rise of "male" stars like Justin Bieber
The prevalence of metrosexuals
I'm not saying everybody should looks like over-masculine or Jersey-shore-ish
But I'm really tired of everyone being into these twinks and princesses and blaming you for liking a more traditional view of masculinity.
Sorry. Comics humour. Ahem.
I still uphold, though, that if I were drawing a comic about a bunch of pretty girls, I could draw sexy close-ups every page, and few guys (gay or straight) would complain much.
Thankee though I just wish I could get past first impressions better =X
I think it´s good that you explained why i.s.o has beefy looking characters ^^
http://www.hirezfox.com/isoarchives...../20090109.html
http://www.hirezfox.com/isoarchives...../20090204.html
http://www.hirezfox.com/isoarchives...../20090504.html
http://www.hirezfox.com/isoarchives...../20100107.html
http://www.hirezfox.com/isoarchives...../20100107.html
Also, IME jocks do tend to hang with other jocks, especially from their own "size class." (It's like that Harry Potter movie, they move in packs ;_;)
So cool, I'm glad to hear it's not a totally unmerited reaction from him.
Also, good luck to ya on working towards that
Yeah, I hate that phrase too @.@
Oh, and thanks :3
The worst part is I've heard some people say it was "trendy" to be gay in their school (like, WTF??) As if stereotypes weren't bad enough, now you can't even tell who's who @.@
then again maybe much of it was just my impression, if I had been more open maybe I would have had a happier childhood, or maybe worse :/
ohh personally I love the comic as it is, I would not change a thing, and being a bit overweight myself I liked the Boris char being added even if he has no lines, and how none of your jock types are holding it against him.
But yeah, it does kinda suck trying to find a beefy guy who isn't just written as The Tough Guy now (or if he's lucky, the Gentle Giant) =X
:::hugs:::
All of your points are valid, but I think that a cast overview really does make an entirely muscled cast where perhaps it wasn't so necessary. Off the top of my head only one character is overweight, Boris, and while this is fine for the people with which Cody CHOOSES to hang out, in many cases he doesn't have that choice.
That's the crux of your argument; big muscled people tend to live similar lifestyles, thus tend to hang out with each other, and that's true. But when the gardener, mechanic, bar owner, other bartenders, and everyone else who Cody DOESN'T choose to be in his life are also extremely fit, it does belie a tendency to want beef in the comic for beef's sake. The biggest of these examples, of all things, is Tyrone. While it makes perfect sense for him as a character to have both a sculpted physique and a lack of shirts, for Cody's boss to coincidentally also be a well-muscled shirtless guy pushes it.
Like I said, the truth lies somewhere inbetween. People who refuse to read your comic are missing out, though, but I must say that of all things, the thing that keeps bringing me back isn't the inherent... let's say sensuality of the whole thing but in fact your auspicious, rather famous layout designs and choices which always entrance me and have a way of telling a story through so very little, really using the visual medium in new and fascinating ways.
I do admit I forgot about Tyrone =X probably because his role ended up being pretty small. So I can't deny he was pretty fanservicey by design. Still though, it's not that unusual for a successful bartender (as well as the cast members who are manual laborers) to be in good shape, is it? Maybe I watch too much television XD I *have* been to gay bars, and those bartenders seem to *always* be incredibly hot.
Interestingly, nobody's mentioned Zach, who was pretty blatant too, but I guess his appearance in conjunction with Jake makes sense?
I suppose I skimped on overweight characters (there is also Cody's father and Sam's friend Krystal), but he does hang out with average-sized characters in his classes and the like. I actually cut the karate class possibilities off because I knew it would mean even more athletic characters, and then switched to the history class.
Thankee, and I do feel that's been one of the comic's strong points. The art possibilities have always been what made it exciting to draw
Food for thought though, thankee
What exactly makes a fetish comic?
Right now, as I wait for the upcoming pages from the archive, I began to understand more and more about what's what rather than 'you damn, that's one hot and hunky piece of meat!' but more on, 'this is quite true and realistic.'
Regardless of what the people say about the beef, I would suggest them to look into the story more and how you make it turn into something interesting than just the hunks in there.
Heh, hope you enjoy the rest of the archives.
I just wish there was a way to encourage people to get into the story first =X I wish I were more of a salesman...
I could be your salesman since I'm a business student. What you need is to promote your comic in a way. What you've done is good enough already but I think that there might be more that you could do. Your comic is for selling, right? However, I don't get it here and I depend on the archives for updates of three times a week and it's quite a killer to wait so long to actually know what's going to happen. Ever tried sending the comic overseas for those people who wanted to buy them?
To get into the story first.. well, that's more towards the people's own interest. I have to admit one thing and you know that since it's the purpose of this journal. Sure, there are many beef's in here and I think, the only character that's not beefy would be Boris. Can't think of one right now that's on top of my head but yeah. Too many beefs could be one thing. Perhaps, if you were thinking of doing another one, try to have a balance between both aspect. The main character being beefy is fine. Just the side cast but of course, not too many non-beefy ones. :D
The problem is the comic took too much time while it was in production. NOW I have more time to make promo stuff but I don't know if it's too late.
I already have a vendor who handles the sales, and she ships all over the world.
Nate's not that big. The cast expanded as time went on so there were more average-sized guys eventually. Cody DID essentially consider himself a loner so he didn't make new friends quickly. And there are females in the cast too!
Ah.. I see... I didn't know about the production time. Guess you didn't see it as a semi-finish product. XD. But year, doing promos now, I think it's still a good time though. I'm not exactly sure what your promo is but if it's working, continue doing it.
You protrayed Cody as a loner in the beginning already and I think, the title suits what Cody is going for. From being a loner to someone that had actually changed for the better and actually, broaden his mind more. The conversation between Jake and Cody when Jake was vulnerable was actually quite an eye opener for me. That's probably how I feel in Cody's shoes, minus the whole buff thingy. Finding yourself under the whole sea of sexuality.
have you tried the sites where you provide the art and they turn it into things like bookmarks and cups and things?
I'd love a Cody bookmark, mousepad and things like that :)
I'm not saying you should change anything about i.s.o., keep in mind. I'm just pointing out that, yes, weightlifters do actually hang out with non-weightlifters. Just like any friendship, it's good to hang out with people who have other interests.
Also keep in mind I did have that other comic with guys of different builds hanging around together (thought not necessarily by choice).
Other comic, you say?
But yeah, it's just the average reader kvetching about you drawing mostly what you want to draw... big, muscled-up jocks. Heaven knows you're not alone... people complained at k-9 for years before he drew the chubby Marty in Circles. (People still complain at Wookiee, but he's never going to change what he draws.)
In the end, just be true to yourself; you've got a good comic, and if some readers can't get past the muscled-up jocks to reach the story, that's their problem.
(Not that I'd complain if you drew some fat characters sometime... )
Really? K-9 too? Well, I guess I'm not alone.
::::nods::: Thankee, I guess I should just work with that.
Not really been into fat, but it has come to my attention I don't mind "husky" builds, and it's actually rather strange how I've not made more characters like that (originally I created characters in conjunction with friends; believe it or not, I made all mine the beefy ones to be *different*, all my buddies covered the other body types!)
Seriously, what? o_O
Man, that's just horrible. Thanks for sharing this though - I can confirm and understand now that furries don't know what quality is even if it's right in front of their face.
Man, it's sad to see that this comic gets lambasted yet Heathen City gets a third book. Ugh.
Aww, but thankee ^ ^;;
BTW, I saw the post you made on your journal about this, but I feel too self-conscious to contribute to that thread ^ ^;;
ANYWAY, the synopsis of the series is readily available from the first comic onward. It's not like you're trying to pedal off a ridiculous fetish wank comic disguised as a coming of age story. Pardon my French, but maybe if the complaining parties weren't such fagtards they could give your story a chance.
Well, my advertising hasn't exactly been centralized. I do need to update the website, it's been ages.
But hee hee, thankee for your support XD
this has to be one of the best comics i've read, man. It really gets me thinking about things going on IRL ^^ sweet job. (you really know you've succeeded when your creation actually gets to people like that! )
Cuz from what I've seen so far, it's mostly cultural... I believe I once mentioned to you that gays over here are more into the slim and slender type, while in the US they still favor the muscular type. Might've changed, though.... unfortunately there are no statistics that could tell us more about preferences.
But I think most people already wrote it: Jocks like to hang out with toher jocks. You portrayed the social networking of the i.s.o. characters, especially Cody, quite reallistically IMHO.
I don't know if I could say that there's a majority in terms of what gay guys like here, but I would've thought they'd at least be open to the body types.
Thankee, though. Especially considering I was mostly guessing XD
WALL OF TEXT much.
I'll keep it simple. It is a bit unrealistic but seriously, people, it's a comic... about animal people.
I've never met anyone as big and muscley as Cody or any of the characters, but I'm sure they're out there. And I'm sure they're all hanging out with each other and not me ;_;
Also, I like Nate. He's not that beefy but he's still the coolest :3
Heh! That's always a good point. And yeah, I didn't get to hang out with them either growing up.
I'm quite glad I introduced Nate, I was surprised how much I enjoyed using him, and he DOES have quite a following
That's not overly muscular. That's REALISTIC muscle. I've seen lots of people with bodies like that. Why the hell are people complaining about that? Oh, that's right, furries complain about everything. Oh well, haters gonna hate. Or in this case, QQers gonna QQ.
I actually *can't* draw the super-big beef that a lot of furries draw...I've tried to do that as trades and all and it's difficult @.@
I suppose that's true, but I just wish I could set the record straight about this one issue :-/
Sawry ^ ^;;
Well, I'd love to be a bodybuilder, I just don't have the genes for it.
I think that's a lot of it, jocks don't get humanized enough. I actually learned to respect them a lot more by trying to get in shape, it's like "this shit is hard, it's not just mindless tossing heavy things around."
That's an awesome story XD
Another explanation:
Mesomorph= Tends to chubby. Endomorph= Jock. Ectomorph = Skinny.
Hmmm... haven´t seen a swimmer team lately?. Just a suggestion...
I know those definitions
Sadly, no. Then again, at my age it's considered creepy to look at high school kids, and I don't know where else you find swim teams outside the Olympics (which are...not much above high school either, IIRC).
I also don't think this is a good thing to get worked up about. Who gives a shit if some people won't read the comic? It's impossible to please everybody, so just please yourself and let things settle where they may.
Yeah, I know I won't win over everyone, but I'd at least like it to happen for the right reasons. If someone says they don't like the art or it's not funny, then fine, that will always happen. But if it's just misconceptions, it's displeasing :-/
Granted I can't tell which is which in this case. And it's likely just as much a lost cause to worry about it. :::shrug::: But I don't post many journals so I'm entitled to bitch about something once in awhile XD
I dunno, maybe it'd be more accepted if they were older. Cody's body is possible at 19, but pretty unusual XD
Thankee though. Gotta admit, though, first impressions always count and I do make quite a statement initially...
You're quite welcome and you're right about that :)
But that's my point, there's no reason why they wouldn't have been there to occupy most of the story. I suppose it would've been nice to use Nate more, he was just kind of a late addition to the cast =X
Was kinda interesting, Nate was intended to be a fairly average body but something about him just comes across as extremely sexy to me ^.^
What matters is that you put a great bunch of characters together in there and the whole series were superb. Of course that`s impossible that everybody likes everything about it but I loved it as many others did and the most important thing of all is that you enjoyed doing it so everybody`s happy :-D
I know I wasn't trying to be totally realistic, but it wasn't supposed to be a 100% fantasy either.
I guess. I dunno. If I'd wanted I could've REALLY drawn a 100% muscle fetish comic and it would've been a lot easier to write. But I put the effort into doing a comic that wasn't, and I just wish it were easier to recognize that.
For an example, watch "Revolutionary Girl Utena". X3
Cody would flip his shit if he had to spend any time at all at Ohtori. Jesus christ.
I'd just be an ass right back to them. ;)
It's never been a direct comment to me, so I dunno ^ ^;;
Its already been stated by so many that this guy seems to have body issues, so I just put in my own opinion, that beef is waaaay better.
I think those people are complaining over nothing. The masculinity, at least how I've view it, is sure as hell a plot device to the overall theme of I.S.O. And I never read The Class Menagerie.
Though I still wish Cody would have paired up with Jake in the end.
Aw, I did like OOP XD
And thank you! I would've had to write a completely different story if Cody had been built like, well, me!
Most artists plug their old work, but I'm embarrassed by my old CM art XD
LOL. Sawree
There's some sort of poetic or ironic or whatever something in that, given what you state the purpose of the story to be. As in, mission accomplished but maybe too well? <:3
Either way; I tend to feel people should tell the story they want to tell, and just make it appealing to the people who >want< to hear that sort of story. I can't really think of any examples of any kind of fictional work being made better by trying to grab the appeal of people who were just immediately disinterested by it. To make something appealing to people who don't already like it, you usually have to change or remove aspects that made it appealing to the people who DID like it from the start. There's not much point in that usually, so I'd say try not to be too bothered by this sort of feedback. Nothing wrong with venting, and it's good to put this clarification of your intent out there. Some people might give it another chance. But if people don't know enough about your comic to be able to avoid having such a dismissive attitude about it, their opinion isn't informed enough for you to put too much stock into it. It's not "I'm not interested because your comic is just fetish," those sorts of remarks are really "I'm not interested because your comic isn't MY fetish." :P
Well, I would've thought there'd be at least a couple people whose minds I could've changed. I suppose it's a pain in the ass to juggle that too much.
Bwahaha! That's an interesting final point.
I miss YOUR rants, BTW!!
And I'm sure at least a few people have read the comic despite not being into the beef, and found it worthwhile. :3
I guess I've been kinda rant-deficient lately. I've been trying very hard to cut back. XD If you're really wanting a good hard textwall Wolfblade essay to throw yourself at, I did get into this debate/discussion elsewhere: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:13738975 X3
Heh! :::gets popcorn::: Now that's what I'm talking about.
Probably if you look at the profile pages of all these hecklers, you'd find...
A.) They're into the bishie, twinkie stick-figure-ish stuff.
B.) They're into fat, obese, or Jabba the Hut, or even more fatter inflation art. (had a few of those criticize mine for being too buff a few times on DA)
C.) Jealous of your art style, and that you can do muscle art.
D.) They watchers who neither draw nor write at all.
E.) They're stealth trolling the site, causing just enough mischief to stir up drama, but not enough to get banned. Then they sit back and watch the fireworks as the target short circuits and goes on a rampage.
F.) Mixture of above answers.
You'd be surprised by how many critics fall under C.) though. Criticizing poses or anatomy when they don't even draw themselves.
BTW, your stuff IS pretty beefy. I am *not* complaining though ^.^
Nodnods, Yeah C does happen, you'd be surprised how many people criticize the art of others when they can barely draw stick figures. And they're just as relevant in irc as they are on art sites like DA,FA, etc. Knows since i'm a mod for offscale's irc and at one time was a mod for bigfurs.
Boris and Nate kinda did balance it out college wise.
Though some people have weird reasons not to like something.
Off note...Can I has more Tyrone?
Sawry. I didn't use Ty very much, it kinda surprised me ^ ^;;
Sexy bat is sexy.
http://www.apbeargallery.com/main.html check the photoshop pumped photos to see what I mean.
i.s.o was brilliant, Vince, and let no one else tell you otherwise
I have to admit I do kind of wish there were more "unbiased" reviews of i.s.o. around on the web, but I haven't seen any =X
Thankee muchly though
I will admit that I am a fan of beefcake, and that it was the nicely muscled characters that got me to pick up the flyers of Issue 0, and likely helped prompt me to buy the first issue. But it was the clever use of layout and the story that kept me hooked. I found myself having to flip *back* for the eye-candy moments because I was too eager to see what happened next. [chuckles]
Heh! I'm glad those flyers worked, I did wonder how many people saw those.
Thankee though, was always fun working with those layouts
"Because that is OPPRESSION, what with you IMPOSING your UNREALISTIC BODY IMAGE on us, and your world populated by talking animals who wear clothes and go to college needs to have COMPLETELY REALISTIC ANATOMY, you OPPRESSOR, you should be TOLERANT and ACCEPTING by HAVING THE EXACT SAME TASTES AS I DO!"
Are you saying you do?
There are one or two comics going right now that I despise, but you won't ever catch me going on the record as saying so.
Duude... don't mind those type of comments. It's your comic... and it just so happens that your comic do not cater to their tastes. It's their problem and not yours. It sounds like they are just making a ruckus at someone who has a well developed story.
To me, I think they are just looking at the "characters" to satisfy themselves before they actually read the entire story... or may even disregard reading the story and just go straight to the "eye candies". It would be flattering... but it's not the reason why the writer / creator created the story.
I don't know, I'd like to set the record straight. I'm sure not EVERYONE is that averse to it if they gave it a chance, and perhaps someone who just reads that comment decides not to see it. So I just wanna get the word out more.
Hey, nothing wrong with the latter, if it gets them eventually reading the story!
Ahh, gotcha sir V. Advertisements ftw! How do you suggest getting the word out more though? Maybe we could give some assistance =P
Yup, true that... what I was trying to say was furs get attracted to things in different manners. Some would prefer reading the story first.... some would be attracted to the characters, eventually reading the story... some would just be curious about the plot / setting and so on and so forth. If their main reason is because it has TOO MUCH BEEF?! Dude... that's shallow and quite a lame excuse to ignore the entire story.
Well...I noticed a lot of sites have reviews but I've not seen any there. Honestly I don't know what else.
:::shrug::: Yeah, but I dont know what can be done about THAT either.
Ahh... if you got something up that clever foxy brain of yours... you know where to call us. Frankly, most of the viewers in LJ already gave their two cents about the comic... hehe not all at once... but page per page... journal per journal.
*smiles* Don't worry about that... as they say... you can't please everyone. And if you DO try to please everyone... you won't be able to please yourself. *pats back* Relax sir... breathe in deeply and breathe out slowly.
and no, I do not associate with fools like that, I've just met a few.
Additionally - if there's backlash for having too much beef on display... well that's just too bad. Some of us like that. And as your many commneters have said, it's really not unrealistic given the circumstances. And even if it was? So what? It's a comic. The whiners can get over it.
I know, I know. I guess I was curious if anyone here thought I *should* be doing something differently. But I dunno @.@
Case in point, I actually rather enjoy Sabrina Online. Granted, there's the Transformers factor, but I didn't refuse to read it because there's too damn many boobs around!
it's the main basic point that is interesting. We could try to analyze what popped that question. Is it because the reader is Straight? Girls? Bishounen fans? So, yeah, we can't satisfy _anyone_, and i mean ANYONE in this world. You said in Q & A section that this is the work of love, right? We (gay) furry communities like it, but we have to admit we're not the majorities. Solid muscle is still less preferable than beautiful-faced androgenous characters, be it with vagina or not.
For example, in my local comic community I have the same theme with redone pages ( NEW || OLD ). And they said, the old one looks better because it is less beefy. And my girl friend answered in a random poll i asked, "I think your comic is fun, IF you reduce the beef".
Soooo, yeah. You have made some community interested in the first place by the beef, but it's just not everyone.
.............. and you know what, even some homophobic people hearing about "gay" comic itself (let alone the "beef") would just... diss it without reading it much further, so yeah.
*slaps your back with force*
This is how world work, foo
You know, I didn't see the redone pages next to the old ones, you really DID make them pretty beefy now o.0 (And I do like it that way) XD So...does it bother you that you may be losing some readers too.
And I'll have you know I do have straight readers! I don't care about homophobic people, but the readership isn't so narrow that I shouldn't try to increase it
Your stuff is wonderful, period. Wait - you said you're scrawny? Baby, at AC you looked just so hot to me, and a goodly amount of well-toned muscle.
Thankee. But aheh ^ ^;; :::blush::: Thanx much, I guess I was more referring to being skinny at the time when I was worried about being pegged as gay. And that was within the past three years still.
Thx XD
Still, what it comes down to is that you had a conception of who Cody was and what he likes and the story progressed from that. Folks are free to not like that all they want, but the "too much beefcake" criticism is the kind that's rooted in personal taste that you can't control or should care about. I'll start bitching if your next story has a lower beefcake quotient that ISO if you do.
I know the roommate was a massive stretch, but c'mon, aren't bar servers usually hot? I have to note nobody's mentioned that almost all the girls in i.s.o. were pretty unusually slim, too.
Well, there was some sexual tension with Nate. I did consider taking that farther...
I dunno, I think there should be some folks whose opinions I could waver if they *knew* I wasn't just drawing a muscle wankfest.
LOL. Yes, please do that ;-p
I do wonder though as I've gone through this thread that maybe I did take a little too long to get past all the beef and into the story in the first issue ^ ^;;
1. Do what you do because you love to do it.
2. Write what you do because your characters tell you its what they'd do.
3. Don't take criticism of your work as invalidation of your life experiences (special case)
4. Be a duck.
All duly noted. Quack
In any event, I have to agree--it is absolutely ridiculous, these people who are treating your work like garbage just because it doesn't appeal to their fetish. I too freely admit I was first drawn to ISO by the beefcake shot of Cody on the front of Issue 0, but like others I stayed for the amazing visual style, the humor, the dialogue, the story, and the characterization. And yes, I also had to often flip back to ogle the beefcake, because I ignored it on the first read-through in favor of the plot and interaction. So clearly there is much more to your work than the beef, which anyone would discover if they'd give it a chance.
Of course no one should be forced to read something that doesn't appeal to them or even turns them off, but the fact so many are ASSUMING your comic is shallow and has no heart or skill or worth simply because of the beef is one of the most insulting and infuriating things I've ever heard. If they wouldn't read it anyway because of not liking gay comics, or because they weren't a furry, fine. But this is just elitism and snobbery, pure and simple. Just because something contains your personal kink, or doesn't appear to be shallow on the surface, doesn't mean or guarantee it is awesome and worthwhile. I highly doubt that anything which many people can objectively agree is incredible writing is all due to it containing bishies, for example.
And on that note, while I am obviously biased in favor of beef, and really don't care for the bishie look at all, I would read something populated with nothing but bishies if I thought it had an intriguing premise, good characters, and writing. The fact these people will not may be due to not enough proper marketing on your part, to show the story isn't all about the beef, or it may be due to these people being the shallow idiots. Either way, it still makes me want to grind their faces in what idiots they are, what an amazing, powerful, enlightening, and just plain fun and brilliant piece this is. But you can't please everybody.
At the same time though, look at the large number of fans you have here, and who have bought the comic. It's pretty clear that whatever the mainstream (furry or otherwise) thinks of beef vs. other body types, there's more than enough beef-lovers out there that you could genuinely cater just to them and still have a large fanbase and make plenty of money--though your intent has always been to tell a good story, not make money. BUT, look at the number of people who have admitted they are neutral and don't care one way or the other about the beef, or even actively aren't into it at all, yet they STILL stayed to read ISO, gave it a chance, because your writing and characters and story interested them enough. That says to me that the builds of your characters are irrelevant, and that if people could get past their own preconceived prejudices and be more open-minded, they'd find there was so much to love here.
Finally, of course, I've always thought your explanation for why most of the characters are beefy makes perfect sense to me. Even if it didn't...it's your comic, you can draw it however you want, and if people can't accept that you felt like catering to your own personal kink while also telling a great story, too bad for them.
*hugs* I'm sorry this happened, but I agree, you need to ignore these shallow people and instead focus on the many, many, many fans who love you and ISO, who have learned and grown and changed due to your story, including those who weren't into muscle but gave it a chance anyway--and were glad they did. Even if they don't know what's good, and won't ever know, you've still reached more than enough people already, and will surely reach more. And who knows, maybe some of them will be able to convince their shallow friends to give it a(nother) shot and discover the truth.
I have to note that it was quite purposeful that the first page of Issue 0 shows not just Cody, but the two girls in the reflection. I was hoping that would catch more peoples' eye.
I think part of it is that I consider myself fairly flexible, despite what I draw. There's a number of webcomics I like that are far from beefy (including Sabrina Online, believe it or not), and I have a minor interest in anime (which, overall, mostly focuses on bishies). I guess I might have overplayed my hand initially--maybe the intro issue, which was a straight redraw of a demo that was never intended to turn into i.s.o.--could have been revamped. Scaled back enough to hook readers in initially. I dunno.
The thing is the Class Menagerie (I know you haven't read it, I don't mind ;-p) was a fairly mainstream attempt and did garner a significant straight following. It certainly featured more females...and more clothing...but still plenty of beef. So I'm not entirely sure what line I crossed with i.s.o...evidently I did, just not sure how much.
And I really think I could have gotten *some* more crossover appeal. S'why I made the rant here...
I appreciate all that. I wonder if it's helped at all though. :::Hugs:: Thankee
Apparently there is some divide after all between your fans on whether the guys in ISO were realistic or not, and the ones who think they weren't will likely never agree with the ones who think they were. Personally I think it does make sense and is realistic, because when I was in college (and keep in mind this was in Iowa) I saw a LOT more beefy guys than I ever had in my high school. So no offense intended, but maybe the people who don't find this realistic just happened not to have lots of beefy guys at their colleges?
A groundskeeper, a barman, a handyman--they're all justified because of their trades. Cody and Todd were beefy because of a desire to hide homosexuality and to attract girls, respectively. Jake was beefy because he wanted to attract anything that moved. Zach was beefy because he surfed AND did gymnastics. The only one who really doesn't make much sense is Doug, though I suspect he worked out so as to attract the bad boys he loved so much. As for how they all got together in the same place...that does strain credulity a little, but it's not impossible. Again, Jeff and Thor are there due to their jobs; Todd and Cody chose to go to the same college; Sam deliberately made sure the Hangout's boss was okay with gays for Doug's sake. The only real statistics breaker was Jake happening to be Cody's roommate, but again it's not out of the realms of possibility. And naturally he struck up with a friendship with Zach once he laid eyes on him.
In any event, while you are flexible and were desiring some cross-over appeal (and you did get it, albeit not as much as you hoped for), I still say what others have noted here is important: you did this for you first, drew what you liked, and you shouldn't have to change that to appeal to a certain demographic. And even if these naysayers have a point about it being too beefy, focusing only in that is still shallow, and they are still missing out on an awesome comic because of it, as even those who have agreed about the lack of realism have noted. :) So I do hope you can keep these positive thoughts in mind...and even if this does make you rethink how you draw future projects, how you balance or introduce the characters and story, or how you try to draw in more readers for ISO or anything else, I am glad you will still keep up the beef!
And for what it's worth, I did notice the girls reflected in the sunglasses, my eyes were just draw to Cody first because that's what I like. ;) For those who don't like beef, or who do like girls, their eyes may have been drawn (or driven :P) elsewhere first. If this wasn't enough for them to overlook the part they didn't like, well... *shrugs*
So who cares what the complainers say..they are just missing out a darn good comic book.
:::Nods::: I was hoping the gay storyline was going to be relateable to a lot of folks. I do wonder what CM readers thought of this project, I don't really think it LOOKS too much beefier.
But thankee
Yeah, but it seems like certain physical styles are given more leeway than others...
But really, that's my point. I was hoping more people would feel the way you did...
Anyhow, you said the book was autobiographical to you. The overall idea relates to you; it's your baby and you're going to be protective of it.
This at least proves one thing for me: You wrote this for yourself first, which I think is the most important thing of any creative work. The fact that so many enjoy it and are touched by it as well is icing on the cake.
Short of, as mentioned, Jake and Cody being roommates, what other situations are unrealistic? Cody's a loner sort in a new school. He *does* make average-sized friends eventually. But given his physical tastes why wouldn't he start out trying to relate to other jocks? He's not going to pop into the chess club.
Heh, well, of course I wrote it for myself first XD I don't know how to write anything else =X
I just found cody's situation to be too convenient. Maybe its different in socal but here in the valley you just dont have too many good looking fit dudes is all. :d
Again doesnt take away from the story to me and people are potentially missing out. Like you said you dont have to be into everything you watch. Lord knows i aint into anime schoolgirls but there are aome hilarious anime with those types as leads!
But hey, this is me we're talking about! The most nitpicky guy ever! I just figured that, well, it's well written, there's actual characters, with actual personalities and actual development, and it has a real flow and storyline to it, unlike a bunch of other comics (like ASB and Coyote River, yeah, I name names), that attempt to make us believe they got that when instead it just bashes us over the head with a bunch of douchebags having sex. Simply put, I just saw a quality comic here, an actually good one, and it made me overlook and even pretty much forget that little nitpick above.
Now, perhaps the fact that the big guys all MET is unusual, yes!
Hm, now that I think about it, it's sort of ironic that Cody was a high school football player but did not take it up in college, and if I HAD made him a college football player nobody here would have batted an eyelid about all the large guys.
Hee! Well, I'm glad it managed to survive past your nitpicks
But really, that is kind of what I was aiming for...yeah, I know there's a lot of muscle around, I was just hoping I could get readers past that. At least I succeeded with you
I'll try and get back to PMs once I'm past dealing with this enormous thread ^ ^;;
Andd don't worry about the PM's, take all the time you need to reply, especially after that etstament I sent last time. lol
If people won't read it, then they're missing out.
Sawry, just venting here O
You keep doing what you've been doing, chief. I have read the majority of ISO and I must say I'm impressed with your artistic style and storywriting skills. Please, keep up the fantastic work!
I'm rambling. Thankee for your support, though
I recall in a little "FAQ" thing you had about it, you said something like having the beefy dudes there to make sure your interest is held-- and I'd say that's definitely a good trick for yourself to make sure it gets finished.
But yeah, what the hell man.
Certainly the initial character designs were to keep my interest, but I restructured the cast significantly after I started the idea. Cody, Jake, Zach, and Jeff were the only pre-existing characters that made the final cut to the comic, and everyone else was designed specifically for the storyline. So basically I made a point of (re)structuring the beefcake so it DID fit coherently into the storyline, rather than the other way around (which is the way it'd been in initial drafts).
But have you met me in person???
OKAY. THIS. IS. A. COMIC. BOOK. By it's very nature AS a comic book, it's not "realistic". It is a self-contained reality created by the author/artist, like ANY work of fiction. Even the most "realistic" novel or film will have certain elements that are not necessarily "real world" believable or logical, depending on the subject and plot. If you want a documentary or doctoral thesis with statistics, look for that. And even a work of history will have a certain approach/bias/interpretation of the subjest that the reader might not totally agree with, either. THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT, ALBEIT THERE ARE SERIOUS THINGS IN ISO. There are also instances of zany, mapcap humor that are not entirely "realistic" in ISO. Did these complainers have anything to say in protest of the silly "sit-com"-esque bits that are in ISO as well? All I can say is READ THE BOOK and then give an informed opinion about what you liked/didn't like. Meh, some people have nothing better to do then prejudge. Don't let it bother you! This was YOUR project and you did it the way you wanted to. That other people liked it also is the icing on the cake. If you're satisfied with the results, who cares about the few poopheads that will ALWAYS look for something to find fault with? And it's true, guys that have similar interests/mindsets will hang together (college cliques aren't TOO different than high school ones, ugh). I wonder if the nay-sayers would've been more willing to read ISO if you had reversed the sexes and had it as a mostly female cast with lesbian undertones (Bouncing boobs bouncing boobs!), or the story of a closeted thirty-something guy on a journal of self-discovery?
Sorry to go on like this, I just don't get other people's 'tudes at times. Were the majority of these comments from straight, gay, male or female type humans? The answer probably tells more about them than it does about the comic.
ONLY 10 comics? me want MOAR ;)
seriusly it's an awsome comic and theres not a lot I'd change save for the mystery tiger right in the begining that is not explained for quite a while
the old friend Tod is it? hot tiger to bad he's not at least BI :P