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Discussion time! Of "trolls"
15 years ago
General
Okay, this is something that sparked in another journal, and I think it's a really interesting subject with a lot of fascinating deviation behind it, so I'm bringing it here to get more opinions, and hopefully our minds rubbing together will yield more shine and polish among them all. It's not an attack on anyone, or anything like that, I simply crave a bit of philosophical forum. Ready? :3
So, often we find it fit to complain about these people we call "trolls". And why shouldn't we, right? They're those guys that go into your game and build teleporters under snipers that pull them into active combat. Or the one who sees your journal about how your BFF from high school never talks to you anymore and leaves some mean or rude comment, just to see your reaction. Or makes a comment directly calling out, not your group or your team or anything, but you. Clearly, these are just jerks that get off on causing other people trouble, right? Wrecking up the local balance and harmony?
This seems to be the common opinion, so I'm just going to go play counter-point, but only because it's an opinion that I actually hold. Maybe I've been reading too much Kant lately, but I actually -like- some trolls. Trolls are beautiful in a way. And here's the secret to appreciating them as more than "random, obnoxious jerk #1398782". Remember that there is a person behind that screen, perpetuating what goes on. Not a faceless archetype, an actual, human person with a real history and story that drove them to be what they are. Just like you. A person with a past that's shaped them. Just in two completely different ways.
But they are obnoxious, right? Well, have you ever tried countering that, instead of yelling and making a scene about them "trying to ruin your good time" by taking them in jest. Join in. Laugh a little. Don't take life so darn seriously. Because, seriously! Why so serious? And if it really is something serious for you, or something that you're emotionally invested in that they're messing with, instead of starting a ruckus, sit back for a second, calm down, remember that that is a person behind that screen, and treat them as such. Seriously, just privately and graciously ask if they will back off because it's a topic you take seriously. If it works, good. If it doesn't, ignore them and they'll surely get bored eventually, just like I'm sure you all are after reading all of this.
But, you might think, I've never met a good troll! Surely they're all evil and the internet would be better off without them!
My, my, my. How very utilitarian of you, thinking of the good of the whole instead of the rights of the many! For those of you who don't know, utilitarian theory essentially dictates that whatever action gets the most good for the largest number of people is what is moral. The ends justify the means. Sounds great, right? Weeell, here's my counter to it as a deontologist.
When you start looking at everything by most good for the greatest number, you do what's been called "hedonistic calculus". And when you do such a calculus, you assign numbers to peoples' souls and livelihoods. That's right, by thinking of the most good for the most people, you have just robbed them of their humanity and assigned them a number and value instead.
Is it okay to steal apples from a rich but cranky individual to feed a poor and hungry family? Sure, they need it more than him! Is it okay to remove trolls from the internet, because they displease more people than they bring joy to? Of course, they're dicks! Is it okay to own slaves? Yeah, because a few slaves doing all sorts of work would improve the many's lifestyle! This one ethnic minority has a different train of thought than the rest of the world and it's tearing everyone apart; can't we just kill them all? Why not, it'll make everything more peaceful for the rest of the wor- YOU SEE WHAT I'M GETTING AT HERE?
It's dangerous and terrifying, when you replace looking at people as people with looking at people as objects. Calling them trolls and thinking of them as just an object that falls under that term is exactly that kind of horror. You rob them of their humanity and feel they don't deserve the rights afforded to the rest of the people. It's a far sicker thing than their petty, little pranks and shenanigans.
Also, good is subjective. There are plenty of trolls who probably think they've never met a "good" furry either. Ponder that next time you take a look at what you deem good and evil.
But trolls are so closed-minded like tha-
Stop right there! Before you say that, first, are you thinking of them as a collection of individuals or a group? Because it sounds like you're grouping, and that's showing how close-minded you would be about objectifying these people. And either way, your showing a very firm denial of their ability to be open-minded, showing how close-minded you are about them still.
Let's say for even a moment, though, that you're right. Trolls are close-minded, 2 dimensional creatures, given virtual life only to bother the lot of you. They're massively immature, aren't they? Like the playground bully who gets so much pleasure from kicking sand in the other kids' faces?
Well, then, if not for giving them their rights, you should still follow the same code of response and play around back, or at the very least ignore them. For what would rob that bully of his pleasure more than those kids, instead of crying, laughing and starting a sand fight? Or laying waste to their own time-consumingly erected castles? Such a response, if they are inhuman and feed only on the misery of others, would steal from them their satisfaction, no? So it's the only thing that makes sense, to try palling around with them.
I could probably keep going, but I feel I should open up the floor to discussion nowabouts. Questions? Comments? Concerns? :3
So, often we find it fit to complain about these people we call "trolls". And why shouldn't we, right? They're those guys that go into your game and build teleporters under snipers that pull them into active combat. Or the one who sees your journal about how your BFF from high school never talks to you anymore and leaves some mean or rude comment, just to see your reaction. Or makes a comment directly calling out, not your group or your team or anything, but you. Clearly, these are just jerks that get off on causing other people trouble, right? Wrecking up the local balance and harmony?
This seems to be the common opinion, so I'm just going to go play counter-point, but only because it's an opinion that I actually hold. Maybe I've been reading too much Kant lately, but I actually -like- some trolls. Trolls are beautiful in a way. And here's the secret to appreciating them as more than "random, obnoxious jerk #1398782". Remember that there is a person behind that screen, perpetuating what goes on. Not a faceless archetype, an actual, human person with a real history and story that drove them to be what they are. Just like you. A person with a past that's shaped them. Just in two completely different ways.
But they are obnoxious, right? Well, have you ever tried countering that, instead of yelling and making a scene about them "trying to ruin your good time" by taking them in jest. Join in. Laugh a little. Don't take life so darn seriously. Because, seriously! Why so serious? And if it really is something serious for you, or something that you're emotionally invested in that they're messing with, instead of starting a ruckus, sit back for a second, calm down, remember that that is a person behind that screen, and treat them as such. Seriously, just privately and graciously ask if they will back off because it's a topic you take seriously. If it works, good. If it doesn't, ignore them and they'll surely get bored eventually, just like I'm sure you all are after reading all of this.
But, you might think, I've never met a good troll! Surely they're all evil and the internet would be better off without them!
My, my, my. How very utilitarian of you, thinking of the good of the whole instead of the rights of the many! For those of you who don't know, utilitarian theory essentially dictates that whatever action gets the most good for the largest number of people is what is moral. The ends justify the means. Sounds great, right? Weeell, here's my counter to it as a deontologist.
When you start looking at everything by most good for the greatest number, you do what's been called "hedonistic calculus". And when you do such a calculus, you assign numbers to peoples' souls and livelihoods. That's right, by thinking of the most good for the most people, you have just robbed them of their humanity and assigned them a number and value instead.
Is it okay to steal apples from a rich but cranky individual to feed a poor and hungry family? Sure, they need it more than him! Is it okay to remove trolls from the internet, because they displease more people than they bring joy to? Of course, they're dicks! Is it okay to own slaves? Yeah, because a few slaves doing all sorts of work would improve the many's lifestyle! This one ethnic minority has a different train of thought than the rest of the world and it's tearing everyone apart; can't we just kill them all? Why not, it'll make everything more peaceful for the rest of the wor- YOU SEE WHAT I'M GETTING AT HERE?
It's dangerous and terrifying, when you replace looking at people as people with looking at people as objects. Calling them trolls and thinking of them as just an object that falls under that term is exactly that kind of horror. You rob them of their humanity and feel they don't deserve the rights afforded to the rest of the people. It's a far sicker thing than their petty, little pranks and shenanigans.
Also, good is subjective. There are plenty of trolls who probably think they've never met a "good" furry either. Ponder that next time you take a look at what you deem good and evil.
But trolls are so closed-minded like tha-
Stop right there! Before you say that, first, are you thinking of them as a collection of individuals or a group? Because it sounds like you're grouping, and that's showing how close-minded you would be about objectifying these people. And either way, your showing a very firm denial of their ability to be open-minded, showing how close-minded you are about them still.
Let's say for even a moment, though, that you're right. Trolls are close-minded, 2 dimensional creatures, given virtual life only to bother the lot of you. They're massively immature, aren't they? Like the playground bully who gets so much pleasure from kicking sand in the other kids' faces?
Well, then, if not for giving them their rights, you should still follow the same code of response and play around back, or at the very least ignore them. For what would rob that bully of his pleasure more than those kids, instead of crying, laughing and starting a sand fight? Or laying waste to their own time-consumingly erected castles? Such a response, if they are inhuman and feed only on the misery of others, would steal from them their satisfaction, no? So it's the only thing that makes sense, to try palling around with them.
I could probably keep going, but I feel I should open up the floor to discussion nowabouts. Questions? Comments? Concerns? :3
But like you said in your journal, there are -many- types of trolls. C: But yeah, crying about them and having a whole dramafest doesn't help the situation at all.
Or not.
Either way, carrying on is not the right response, and will likely make things worse. :P
But, yeah...! Thanks for the input.
I actually scrolled down to read some of the responses, and I'm sure I'm going to be judged a cold person for saying this, but really...if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
That's been my philosophy on this for awhile now. Everyone should know what they're getting into when they sign online. Granted, some people might not, and I actually do my best to let people know what's what if it's their first time getting on the internet. A lot of the people I've talked to have mental disorders; I've got GAD myself. But that is no excuse to how some of these people handle trolls.
-If- you post something online, -expect- trolls. I think that's half the reason I've stayed in the clear. I've actually written in some of my descriptions that it's troll-material, and that I'll be on the lookout for them. (I'm using troll here in the very general sense to describe someone who makes a snide remark or joke based on material they don't agree with). I really don't understand how people are shocked, and even feel that it's morally unjust, when they get some kind of comment on their work.
Or spam, like massive amounts of dick posted in their shoutbox.
Maybe I've lost my sense of pity or something at this point, but I dislike people who whine and roll over in submission more than I hate trolls. At least trolls have some sense of confidence and humor. Most of them anyway. AND most of them will admit when they're wrong (if they're that type of troll, we all know there's many types) when they're actually proven wrong.
I just-- ughghghh, it infuriates me to no end that people blame the trolls for their own behavior. Are some of them bullies? Yeah. Are some of them genuinely trying to make you grow a pair? Yes. Whenever I trolled in the past, I swear to god, that was my main goal. To make people stand up for themselves and think quickly/logically.
/endrantinyourjournal,sorry
I'm not a big fan of complaining over the trolls either, as I've probably revealed over the course of this journal. As said, it's pretty much the exact wrong course of action if you don't want them around anyway, because it makes a body look like a target that needs to hassled until some change is made to their attitude. If the so-called trolls can continue this with a decent sense of humour, like a good one should, all the better.
I think I've probably been called a troll at least a couple times just for speaking logically or calling a fellow on his bull. One guy even started a whole campaign against me, made all the more amusing when people had to tell me about it because of how little I cared. The only times I've really done so intentionally, though, are in games. Not really to make people think quickly or logically, but to force them to loosen up and not be so serious, because it's a game, for crying out loud...! It should be fun. XD
No worries. It's nice to get the different sort of input. I've been arguing these sorts of things to other folk all couple days. X3
however trolls are closeminded, they are unable to accept others being diffrent, but in the end we're all closeminded, we all have things we dont accept, murder, pedophilia, rape (of humans or animals), etc
I agree trolls arent evil, just really misguided,
the internet would be better off without "trolling", without the concept of "trolling" the trolls would seise to be trolls, we shouldnt wish the people behind the the hatred away but the hatred itself
lastly I will say that sadly the things trolls say cant always be seen as innocent as a bully kicking sand in the playground, people have ended there lives over the things said over the internet or in RL, the blame cant be cast on the victims for not having enough "backbone", just a few months ago some kid about 12 or 13 killed himself because he was being picked on for being gay, his parents found him with a bullet hole in his head ... the things trolls say have an affect even if they dont mean it to go as far as it sometimes does
I especially like your calling attention to differentiating so called trolls from the act of trolling, and would like to extend on that.
I'm sorry, 12 or 13? I was thinking you were talking for a moment there about the case that happened at my friend's college, and was ready to argue that case a different way... but this...
A twelve or thirteen year old taking their own life for being picked on for being gay...
Gosh, where do I start...?
Okay, first of all, not to say that he deserved to die. Obviously I don't feel that way, and think all life should be treasured... But that child was deeply disturbed. At that age, being sexually active is questionable, let alone so certain about an alternative sexuality. His parents should also share blame for keeping a firearm within access of someone that age.
But, above all else, whether he was actually such or simply being harassed with slander, my personal blame lies on social normalcy. Let's face it, the same media that told you that story and tried to demonize the bullies also perpetuates the idea of ideal sorts of people with their television shows, advertisements, slogans, ETC. And that idea of an ideal, normal society that it sends of certainly include gayness being taboo even in this day and age. If it weren't, such mockery would not have racked the young and fragile mind with guilt and pain, but passive apathy to the comments that aren't charged with directly negative social connotation.
On a sidenote, the next time you hear someone say "That's so gay!" when something bad happens, slap them upside the head and/or challenge them to a dual at dawn for being an immoral person. You can even accuse them of being indirectly responsible for that child's life, if you wish.
my opinions arent from the media, but from experience, I have emotional scars and even some physical ones from being bullied as a kid, I was afraid to go to school for three years because I had to walk to school with my bully, before then I was afraid to go out and play because another bully was waiting for me, its left its mark on me, what they did was wrong, I have forgiven them, and I've even defended one them because he's changed, but I dont defend there actions, give me a reason why picking on someone else isnt wrong, and if you cant than atleast admit it
and your right society's belief in "normality" has something to do with some bullying, but other times the bullies are just down right mean
and I already do support gays, I've been called a fag several times for sticking up for them, but I only turn to violence as a reaction to violence against another (i.e. self defense of someone else)
Yes, I think picking on someone just to pick on them, feel superior, ETC. -is- wrong. I'm not defending their actions, especially not when that's the only justification and goal they have. And never think you were the only one bullied. I was the bullied kid who sat quietly in the corner wondering why people could be so cruel, or at least why to me, through grade school too. I think I've earned every right to talk about this topic in whatever way I want. Which isn't that bullying is good, mind you.
What I'm saying is that there is a proper way to respond, which, as much like a cheesy television movie as it sounds, is showing a little compassion. That's what gets people to change so they can become the ex-bully you now defend. They are people, and have their reasons for doing what they do, be it that sense of social normalcy making them feel compelled to try to impose their values on anyone different or having a rough life at home that makes them feel worthless and needing of some way to feel some sort of control over their lives. If you find the root of the problem, then you can eliminate it in a way that makes things better for not just the victim, but the bully as well. At risk of sounding like an old episode of the Simpsons, try being the bully's friend. Because, you said it yourself, we should hate the act, not the actor, and should find constructive ways to defeat that root instead. :P
Imagine, if you will, a world where no adjective carries any negative connotation. Calling anyone short, nasty, smelly, gay, or any other thing people use as an insult in society would be met with naught but a shrug.
But duels are different! They're they kind of violence you can feel fancy and sophisticated doing! :o
I kid, of course. I'm actually nearly a pacifist myself.
You cannot be in an action of self-defense for another by definition. You can teach them to defend themselves, or defend them, but that's it. It sounds good, and the thought behind it is clearly pure, but I still prefer passive resistance where possible. More thought-provoking and less hate-perpetuating that knocking teeth in.
I have indeed imagined such a world many a time, rather the only diffrence is that such words wouldnt need be used in the first place in my depiction
and yes if you wish to get technical, I ment in the defense of another, even I slip when it comes to termonology XD, I'm not a normally violent person either, but the mere idea of someone harming or threatening a loved one (i.e. family, freind,or pet) makes my muscles tense and my blood boil
again my apologies for my earlier reply, I tend to go a bit to far with my arguements/points ^^;
Bullying for one thing is never ok, no matter what side you happen to be with or what kind of philosophical theories tossed out there. Granted there are different levels of trolling, and the very minor ones probably don't fall into that category.
Bullies are in no shape or form, worth defending. Yeah, they're humans, but what difference does that make to the situation? They're still being immature assholes, they're still making the weak feel miserable about themselves, ruining the good times of others just so they can get a cheap laugh...I don't see how these kind of people are worth defending. What about the people on the other end? They're human too, and don't deserve that kind of needless crap in their life. Sure one can ignore it, but an attack is an attack. Even if you don't fight back, it can still do some damage.
Not everyone can simply just shrug things off. Not everyone is strong. There's alot of us out there, like myself, that are rather fragile and weak. Though it's not our fault that's how we were made, yet we suffer the most from these "trolls". For myself, negativity, especially those created in certain trolls, triggers some nasty anxiety attacks. I can't really prevent it anymore than I already do. I can respond to them as you said, or ignore them entirely, but it doesn't change the effects.
Just because they're human, doesn't mean its ok. "trolling" shouldn't be taken as lightly as you say...and you should know which type of trolling I mean. It should be handled the same way bullying does offline...for they are one and the same. It can be just as serious online as it is offline.
This topic has put a sour taste in my mouth
I wouldn't mind, as long as my label is licorice.
But I'll probably get something grape flavoured.
... A-anyway! There are those people, but worse is subjective. To argue semantics, couldn't you say instead that they make the world a more discordant place instead? To argue beyond that, they may find the chaos more appealing, and think that they're making the world better by adding that bit of confusion. I would say that, beside the madness being occasionally amusing, does the world not need balance? Wouldn't you say it makes us appreciate the good times all the more for having experienced the bad?
I think I've made it sufficiently apparent that we're all much more connected than a strict live and let live philosophy will ever allow. Not to say it's necessarily right to force a path on another, but their trajectory must be convinced to bend every now and then, preferably with words and thought, and for should our paths ever stray too far or tangle their paths, it may only be a matter of time before they all come crashing together again in a lethal blaze.
It's dead, Jim.
That's kind of how i just see it, people wont change there minds about something unless they are WILLING to change, and most people like being "thick skull"ed about subjects.
Is it when they leave comments with nothing but "dicks"?
Is it when they point out your art or writing is definitely not as good as you think it is?
Is it when they make fun of your opinions?
Is it when they say something you don't agree with?
What is the point at which someone becomes a troll, wittingly or unwittingly? People are quick to label anything that makes them uncomfortable a troll, in order to discredit the other person and make themselves feel better. Without introspection on the observer's part, how do we seperate people who try to make you think, with people who are just trying to get on your tits?
"Troll", even if it's not meaningless, is an arbitrary label. I think we can all be stronger than just mindlessly and recklessly labelling anything distasteful or outside of our comfort zone "trolling", as if transmogrifying that other person into some hilarious caricature makes it all better. I think maybe people should evaluate what qualities make a "troll". Usually Regeneration 5, weakness to fire and acid, and a size catagory larger than humans.
Anything else is just a guy or gal trying to annoy you/elucidate you/satirise you. That's it. People have their reasons, and it's not because they're evil daemonic entities sucking the world dry of joy to feed their insatiable lust for suffering.
Really, though, I agree. If nothing else, this journal has made a few people stop and consider how loosely they toss the world "troll" around, which is good. I'm all for people thinking about doing something horribly dehumanizing before doing it.
And that is, I would argue, both the meaning and use of the term in this day and age, dehumanization. Perhaps it is arbitrary, but that makes it all the more dangerous, when anyone can rob another of their personhood for saying anything the former disagrees with, be it, as you said, a person trying to make hem think or a person who's just trying to get on your tits.
I'm sure quite a few folks here think I've got regeneration 5 right about now for making this journal. :P
And that is always what it comes down to, if you can get people to take the perspective of the antagonist every now and then; everyone is a person, and as such have their reasons. It's not always "because I can~".
Thank you for your insight. :)
you say that one should try to "play around" with them, but you seem to forget that not everyone may be in the right mental state to do so, or even just not "aknowledged" enough about trolls to realize what's the right course of action.
Many times I saw potential artists or simply young people who wanted to post their drawings despite a still very rough skill around on the internet. The unlucky ones who got targeted by trolls, many times were scared off and never wanted to post art or even draw again. Some of them are actually young so they're also in a very frail mental state, plus they're new to the internet rules, this making them not aknowledged enough to react.
trolls are also the ones who write articles about people on ED. While for some people the articles say the truth, many many articles twist the truth, are covered in lies, all to just damage the figure of someone online. I've had a couple of friends who got their own article on ED and....it wasn't nice at all...it seriously wasn't something you could solve by "playing along".
playing along plus can be easy if the trolls are one or two, but raids of spamming trolls are admittedly a little harder to deal with, without mentioning the ones that hack your account and start spreading your stuff around or mess with your gallery.
I don't really get how you find hem beautiful. this is not generalizing, the point of a troll IS to cause a ruckus and making other people angry/sad. "for the lulz" as they love to say. they may be people in need for help behind the screen, but at this point their line of thinking is very selfish. they're also the ones who hide their own identity calling each other anon, making themselves "numbers" in a way.
if anything I'd really like to catch a troll in real life, without him being able to use the monitor as shield and honestly asking WHY he does all of this.
As a matter of fact, I never mentioned you, so you are only volunteering and accusing yourself of whatever it is you're talking about. That said, I also have not accused anyone of anything above, but simply played philosophical logic off each objection to build something... well, not quite Socratic, but a dialectic nonetheless. :3
Could you, perhaps, say that those people, who were scared off by trolls, had entered the realms of the internet at too young an age and too low a maturity level? My parents didn't let me make accounts for things online until I was 16. At the time, I hated that situation. Looking back, I very much appreciate it. If they couldn't take a little bit of teasing, they were certainly going to have a tough time with high school anyway. :P
Now, I'm gonna do you a favour and form your first counter-point for you. Couldn't the internet be seen as sort of a safe haven for those young, teased people? The internet should be where they retreat to find people of common interest and escape the worries of everyday bullies in real life at school?
Well, that would justify why they get upset at trolling attempts. It is not, however, an excuse. That's like saying "my way of having fun is getting completely drunk off my ass, and the prohibition took that from me, so I'm going to destroy the government." No! That's just stupid and brash. You don't destroy the government, you find a new pastime. Collect cards or play video games. Meet some friends and go out for pizza. Or just sit in a field at night with someone you care about and watch the dusk befall you. The world is beautiful, and there are plenty of other retreats from it. This is something often forgotten with lives behind monitors and tasks.
Okay, to be honest, I went through ED awhile ago, and found a bunch of people I knew on it. For about two days, it really did upset me to see how they'd been slandered. But that's just it, it's just slander, and anyone who will get out of their social disconnection for ten seconds and talk to these people as people, like I'm suggesting you do with the so-called Trolls, will likely see that it is just that: slander. Or they may form the opinion that it's totally true, but that's their opinion that they're entitled true, just as you may form the opinion that any given troll you meet (or me, as I get the feeling you're labeling me. :3) really is a dick. I will not, however, stand for such an opinion being formed without actually talking to them like a person. Encyplopedia DRAMAtica, does have a name to live up to, afterall, and anyone who takes it too seriously has already failed in denying it that.
Hackers fall into a different category. They have then achieved a sort of faceless or disused vandalism that intrudes not only on a person's belongings, but also their autonomy. Presuming the target randomly or without communication prior, there is often no talking to them, and they are truly sociopathic in nature.
You have not generalized, true, but are still flawed and it's not necessarily a flaw of logic this time. See, you are automatically performing the logical function loving called Barbara: A=B, B=C, ergo A=C. To be a troll is to do the act of trolling; The act of trolling is to cause a ruckus and upset others; Therefore, to be a troll is to partake in causing a ruckus and upsetting others. BUT! This all still centers around the word "troll" and its definition. I would like to direct you to
They may hide their identity, but that doesn't mean they have no humanity. I mean, you also hide your identity behind the mask of a chu as I do behind Reed. The difference is that between a masquerade and ski-masks. Anonymity does not mean a breakdown in humanity. If you were to meet one beyond the screen, you'd have to come to grips with the fact that it's a person you're talking to, just as they would, and you'd both be without armour. Do you know how much most people lie when they feel not only vulnerable, but confronted? It's been socially engrained that it's the quick, easy way out, and morally acceptable to a number of theories that aren't my own. If you were to ask that to someone face to face, knowing what they were, but not knowing them prior to get to know the real them; if you were brave or foolish enough without your shield to ask then, do you think they'd have the courage to give a straight answer back?
If you want a real answer, leave them behind their shield, let them feel safe, talk them down like a rational person, maybe even befriend them, and then ask them why; though you may find the answer not sufficient, because they'll have ceased trolling you.
anyway, that's not the thing I want to talk about...and I don't want to force myself on people anyway.
abou ED, taking it seriously or not, it does damage someone's figure, badmouthing them right in the open. One of my friends had problems getting friends due to an article about him on ED, full of lies about him and his attitude and spreading stuff about his private life as well.
you suggest me to talk to trolls as real human beings...the funny fact is that I did and it works, just like you sand and I said, but you may have missed that in my argument. That doesn't justify a troll's action though. You say that people getting angry and upset about trolls aren't justified, but the same argument can be turned to trolls as well. Is the fact that they are human beings probably with some problem and wanting to vent an excuse to their actions ? I don't think so.
and like I said and I'll repeat now, not everyone are strong enough or in the right mental state to act like you suggest. Let's take a couple of examples, someone who was just left by his love or someone who had a person he cared for or even a pet die and trolls go to tease him about it...do you really think that this person getting angry or upset isn't justified at all ? in a mental state in wich you're more vulnerable and frail ? trolls have to think about the consequences of their action as much as the trolled ones should. that's why I don't get this journal at all, it's as if you're trying to justify their actions in a way.
oh and I never labeled you as troll or insulted you in any way, so youìre pretty much putting words in my mouth now.
You didn't reply to my comment about troll raids anyway.
and about asking a troll in real life abou why he does it, maybe I won't get a honest answer, but I'm really curious as to what they'd think about someone confronting them directly like that with them not being able to use their own shields. a confrontation at the same level. it would be interesting at the very least.
I guess my only response to the ED thing is that people who take it seriously enough to not get their heads out of their asses and actually meet the person instead of relying on ED (of all things...) to form their opinions aren't the kinds of individuals one should want as friends anyway. They themselves should be ridiculed instead for taking ED as a legitimate source of information.
It does work...! But no, their being human beings doesn't justify their actions. I yield that point. And I very much do think that people trolled are justified in being upset... but there's a very fine difference between "justified" and "right". Would I be justified in fiercely disliking you because all we've ever done is argue and debate? Probably. Would I be right instantly doing so? Not at all. You're a good person. Are people who get teased for the worst of reasons, loss and misery, justified in yelling and screaming and being upset? Absolutely. But is that course of action right? No.
My point doesn't come down to justification, but what is right, and what is right is not objectifying people. Ever. It doesn't matter if they do it first, responding in kind is not the answer, as that only perpetuates the cycle. For it to end, change by one end must be enacted.
I tend to do that. Sorry. :P
Raids, I sort of forgot about/lumped in with hackers. They're more of less vandals. They can be ignored, since they never do really approach in a communicative manner, and can't all really be addressed at once, but striking back will only fuel the flames.
But you -are- at the same level over the internet, both shielded. I get what you're saying, what would they do if confronted in person, in the physical world, where road beneath your feet is real and so are the fists, but you really have to keep in mind that that does go both ways, and they would be every bit as capable of countering you in the physical real world.
If we can start things over, well, that'll be awesome, if not I can understand...it would probably be a nice way to know each other better.
anyway, I think we both pointed out our opinions way better and I do feel better now about the whole situation too, sorry if I seemed to be rude.
I don't believe in starting over, because what's been done has been done, and to forget is to repeat. But I do believe in putting that behind and looking forward, forgiveness, understanding, and open-ness, and all that good stuff. I'd be glad to get to know you better some time. :3
And I agree. We've come to some interesting conclusions. No worries about seeming rude, I'm sure I did too. It's all part of the process. Thanks for all of your insight. ^^
When I think about it, there are three types of 'Troll'. Though to be honest, the latter two could probably be better called 'Dickhead' or 'Jackass', and each type has an appropriate response.
First, theres your average troll that just goes somewhere and tries to be funny. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't, but afterward if they were too harsh or perhaps did something stupid, they will apologize and try to make amends. More often than not, they were people just trying to be silly and fun that accidentally wound up acting like a dick in the process. I'm usually cool with them, and they usually do something funny. Like all comedians, though, theres some humor that just wasn't meant for some people, and they will just wind up pissing people off. It happens.
Second, theres the more extreme troll (lower level jackass) that will single out personal flaws or situations and relentlessly make fun of them for their own enjoyment. Very few people will enjoy this situation, and the ones that do enjoy it are usually the jackass' fellow jackasses. These people are a major problem, and need to be removed from the situation, and one should at least try to explain to them why they were being very rude and inconsiderate to their fellow human beings. Should they not listen, it is usually because they either are a jackass in real life, or because they're playing with the idea of anonymity and enjoying the lack of consequences. Either way, this person is not fun.
Finally, theres the troll that can't even be considered 'funny' except to the sadistic. They play on peoples emotions, to a point where everything they say is extremely harmful, and often results in emotional distress for the person on the receiving end of the 'joke', sometimes leading to physical harm. This is unacceptable behavior in general, and should not be tolerated by anyone.
(tl;dr) Now, to make a long story short, there are a variety of trolls ranging from 'annoying as hell but okay that was pretty funny' to 'insults your recently dead relative while ruining your reputation' and have to be dealt with on an incident to incident basis.
(not long enough;dr) Now to make a long story even longer, and to play off that metaphor up there:
Acceptable: Troll makes fun of your sand castle a little, both of you laugh.
Unacceptable: Troll makes fun of your sandcastle, insults your sexuality, claims he had repeated sexual relations with your mother, then proceeds to post about it repeatedly on your blog comments.
What the hell, man?: Troll kicks over sandcastle, then makes fun of kid building it for having broken both arms in a car accident, in which both of their parents died.
PS: Reading up on "Hedonistic Calculus", it would more accurately be called "Hedonistic Simple Algebra Problem that could be Solved by a Third Grader."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg
And now that all seriousness has just been taken out behind the tool shed, I think you might be over thinking this just a tad bit Reed. Yes, there's a person behind the computer. Yes, they can say some hurtful things, and sometimes be humorous, not even trying to be all the time. Hell, every time I go to ED I can't help but laugh at how ridiculously overblown pretty much everything is on that site, though there was a time where it did piss me off, I think I've done a bit of maturing since then and can appreciate things in a different light. I agree, not all trolls can, nor should be grouped together. There's a few bad apples, but most trolls I've seen are generally harmless. But then again, I might not be quite so qualified to speak of such things, given that the only one to every really troll me is our mutual troll, and even then I'm not sure if he even counts! But back to original point, I'm just not seeing any deep psychological or socially engineered concepts behind all this, it just seems pretty simple. Exceeeeept for the whole thing about the term being generic and overused. You have a very valid point right there :/
A-anyway! It's good to see someone put out an intellectually stimulating journal for once! Hopefully you've brought some new insight and a way of thinking to previously closed minded people. And if not, I can't blame you for trying.