FA+
Shop
Vegetarians?
18 years ago
General
So, I've pondered posting on this topic a few times, and insofar haven't brought it up yet. But this evening I must satisfy my curiosity.
How many of you good folks here on FA are vegetarian or vegan? I can think of a handful off the very top of my head (I'm sure you know who you are.) but I always wonder how many people in my social groups are vegetarian. I also wonder at people's reasons - what made you make that decision? I recently went vegetarian a few months ago and I personally feel that it has been one of the most positive, /good/ decisions I've made in my life. (Next one is to quit smoking cigs!) I also wonder how many er, furries, critter-people, mythics, whathaveyou are vegetarian considering their obvious empathy towards animals.
So... discuss? :}
How many of you good folks here on FA are vegetarian or vegan? I can think of a handful off the very top of my head (I'm sure you know who you are.) but I always wonder how many people in my social groups are vegetarian. I also wonder at people's reasons - what made you make that decision? I recently went vegetarian a few months ago and I personally feel that it has been one of the most positive, /good/ decisions I've made in my life. (Next one is to quit smoking cigs!) I also wonder how many er, furries, critter-people, mythics, whathaveyou are vegetarian considering their obvious empathy towards animals.
So... discuss? :}
Trust me, the sickness will stop.
No offense meant, but I don't really understand the choice to not eat meat at all. It's true Americans might have a taste for more red meat than most countries, but I definitely know our brain and muscles need more protein than beans or whatever. So if you're gonna be a herbivore, you'd better make sure you're practically a nutritionist with knowledge of exactly what you need, proven by several sources. I dun want you gettin sick and weakly by not eating enough or varied foods :D
The average American eats 700% (that's 7 times) the daily reccomended amount of protein. I hate when people bring up protein! I can eat 1 single cup of steamed spinach and that covers 100% of my daily requirements for protein. Top that with whatever rice and beans I eat, and other dark green vegetables, and I have that covered just fine. :} As to not eating meat at all - to me it's about respecting life as being equal to mine, as deserving life as much as I do. We are a small, lonely planet with nothing but eachother, and still we slay and eat our fellows. Some of us even observe that what is done is cruel - and go on supporting the industry. It's a social conditioning more than nutrient requirements that keeps people eating meat.
But that's just my opinion. :3 I've never felt better (pyshically and mentally) since going vegetarian (mostly vegan, really) and I don't think I could ever look back.
Take a look at the nutrition facts of your meat, there's a shitload of protein in it. Far more than your body requires. In fact, you don't even NEED meat to get your protein.
How can you do it, then? Milk, eggs, cheese, beans, flax, soy, nuts, yogurt.. these are just a few things that are packed with protein. It doesn't take a genius in nutrition to make sure you eat dairy. In fact, you don't have to know shit about nutrition and you could just love fake meat and get enough protein.
I used to weighttrain, and in order to get my protein for the day, I generally did planned my meals like this: Breakfast was a good cereal called Golean. The best cereal ever, with 10g of protein, 13 grams of fiber, and few calories per cup. Milk on it, and a piece of toast covered in peanut butter. I just jammed out a good 35 grams of protein. Then I had a snack in the middle of the day, usually a cup of yogurt and a cup of almonds. There's another 20 grams of protein. Lunch came, and I would have a peanut butter and bana sandwich for a good 32 grams of protein, plus another yogurt, a cup of milk, and another cup of nuts. There's another 60 or 70 grams of protein alone. Midday snack would be a protein bar, which usually holds a good 10 grams of it, water, and a few pieces of fake meat for another 20 to 25 grams total. After my workout I would eat dinner, a bean and cheese burrito, a protein shake (1.5 cups for 30 grams) with milk (20g protein) and a protein bar. I just easily banged out 80 grams of protein.
That's around 210 grams of protein, which is plenty. Plus I killed ALL that god awful fat and cholesterol in meat and replaced with healthy, GOOD fats like those found in nuts.
Trust me, you don't need to eat meat to get enough protein in your diet, and it doesn't take a major in Nutrition under your belt.
I definitely know you're healthier than the average American, because the average is obese and sedentary, whereas you seem to be conscientious and exercise regularly. Since I am enthusiastic about food and cooking, I doubt I would ever become a person who eats solely raw food. I used to only eat health foods because of how my mom raised me, and here I am, shorter than anyone in my whole family, and chronically ill - while they all eat sugar and cheese and live way too long.
Bah, I'm kinda ranting now XD;; Sorry, I just can't imagine not getting a chance to whip up a nice beef stew in the winter with all those savory tastes :D 'Course, if you've been a vegetarian all your life, your body has not only learned to live without meat, but would probably cause you to throw up if you ate any >>;
If you buy dairy, MAKE SURE it's non-fat dairy. Still has ALL the protein, 0 the fat.
You should go pick up a vegetarian cookbook sometime or visit a restaurant and ask if they have vegetarian substitutes! It'll do you some good, perhaps broaden your spectrum of how you can cook without meat.
I'm not trying to convert you, just trying to open up a little about it =)
Sorry if I came off strong, it's a natural reaction to suddenly overload people's brain with health info when they're like "OMG U R CRAZY U NEED MEAT FOR PROTEIN AND IRON~!"
Not saying you called me crazy, I was just being silly xD
I love to eat them. X3
Anyway, thanks for sharing! :}
Thanks for sharing, Zlato! :} I'm going to have to try some of the recipes that Tser posted on the Guild one of these days.
I'm a vegetarian almost entirely for health purposes. I disagree with how animals are treated, but then again, you COULD buy organic meat, which is raised naturally...so I honestly don't feel that upset about seeing a dead animal being served x.x
But once I looked at the nutrition facts on meat.. even "healthy" meat like Turkey and Chicken.. holy shit.
Who the FUCK needs that kind of fat and cholesterol? CHicken has like 80mg of cholesterol per 8oz.. and that's LOW. Dude, I don't even ingest that much cholesterol in a week. There's around 10 or 11 grams of fat per 8oz as well.. and for real, that's not healthy fat. That's animal fat, good old heart clogging animal fat. And I don't know many Americans that get full from 8oz of chicken.
Then only, ONLY meat I have come to find almost no problems with is fish. Fish has like 30 or 40mg of cholesterol per serving and almost no fat. pLus it's pumped with Omega-3 fatty acids which are *uber* love for your body. Even then, though, you can get O-3s and the same amount of protein WITHOUT the fat and cholesterol.
With the exception of fish, there is no nutritional purpose for meat. Everything meat has to offer, soy meat offers in a better deal. All the same amount of protein, even iron and vitamins, MINUS the fat and cholesterol, even most of the calories!'
Vegetarians live an average of 4 years longer than Omnivores for a reason, people.
It's so encouraging to hear that you have been a vegetarian for your entire life - it seems to me even in my new experiences that people so doubt the health of a vegetarian, and feel inclined to comment on things they don't know about, like protein.
My mate is mostly vegetarian - though he does eat fish a few times a month. So I suppose he's a plescatarian or somesuch. :P
Anyway, thanks for sharing!
But I still eat from time to time a hamburger or a salami pizza.
I like your name! Did you happen to get it from Jean Auel's Earth's Children series? e_e *fangirl*
But thx that you like the name *wags*
And I dont worry about it, I like salad and that stuff but from time to time I like to eat a little bit meat.
Yay for salad!
Vegetarians aren't the only one's eating the grains harvested =D
He constructed it and thought it out carefully, sure, but I can see his ego showing just because he removed all fault from omnivores and placed it solely on the vegetarians, when in fact it the fault of both =)
'Twas a nice try, though. I almost felt bad.
Furthermore, you'd have seen the concession that he isn't bashing people who are vegetarians for religious or dietary reasons - he's specifically targeting those who think they have the moral highground. He points out the difference between an omnivore and a 'moral vegetarian' as one who is erudite (or at least not a hypocrite) and one who is ignorant.
It's not that we kill small animals too, it's that we don't pretend we don't. So please get your facts right before you go accusing Maddox of being an ignoramus.
Well, that would be in one sentence, and that would be a side note. Meaning "Oh by the way yeah I see this, but I don't fucking care." Which totally removes it from the arguement. And eh,Yes he is bashing vegetarians for religious and dietary reasons. In fact, he never even differentiates from them. He does just as he says in that quote, "THE VEGETARIAN RESPONSE." or "YOU VEGETARIANS." or says just plain "VEGETARIANS."
=\
It's not even that great of an article, he's nitpicking facts to try and make us feel bad about what we eat too. SO what if those animals are dieing in the machines? What are we gonna do about it? "FUCK IT KILLS ANIMALS LETS BOYCOTT MACHINES! ALL FARMERS HAVE TO USE HAND TOOLS ONLY! PICKET! PICKET!" it's not like we can go "THIS IS WRONG LET'S STOP EATING IT." Much like omnivores can.
Incorrect - his argument is that some vegetarians think they are more moral than omnivores, and as such, this demonstrates that they are more hypocritical than omnivores.
"And eh,Yes he is bashing vegetarians for religious and dietary reasons. In fact, he never even differentiates from them. He does just as he says in that quote, "THE VEGETARIAN RESPONSE." or "YOU VEGETARIANS." or says just plain "VEGETARIANS."
No, he is not. He is targeting the moral type of vegetarian - something doesn't need to be spelled out in order for it to be inferred. Or does it for you? You're just making yourself seem more ignorant.
"It's not even that great of an article, he's nitpicking facts to try and make us feel bad about what we eat too."
You're nitpicking sentences and taking them out of context to try and make him look like he's out to get people who he's not interested in. He's not trying to make you feel bad, he's trying to make you think before you open your mouth and wax lyrical of the moral virtues of vegetarianism.
"SO what if those animals are dieing in the machines? What are we gonna do about it? "FUCK IT KILLS ANIMALS LETS BOYCOTT MACHINES! ALL FARMERS HAVE TO USE HAND TOOLS ONLY! PICKET! PICKET!" it's not like we can go "THIS IS WRONG LET'S STOP EATING IT." Much like omnivores can."
Maddox has answered your question already - grow your own plot of cereals and vegetables, or shut up. Furthermore, the problem doesn't lie entirely with large machines - he also mentions pesticides. But you don't seem to exhibit acknowledgement of that.
Right, because there's enough open land in this country for everyone to have their own farm.
"You're nitpicking sentences and taking them out of context to try and make him look like he's out to get people who he's not interested in. He's not trying to make you feel bad, he's trying to make you think before you open your mouth and wax lyrical of the moral virtues of vegetarianism."
The problem is that we have already thought ahead. See, like I said, unlike omnivores, we can't change the fact that animals are killed in passing by farming equipment and pesticides. We cannot control the crop farming industry by any means other than, well, as he said, growing it ourselves. But, seeing as it's an impossibility for us to each have our own farms due to the space in this country, and considering that if we did, no one would be able to have enough money to hire the amount of employees it would take to manually harvest every piece of produce, that's not an option and therefor a moot point.
Omnivores, on the other hand, CAN stop the killing of their animals. How? Oh, just stop buying meat. See, if you stop buying meat, then the meat industry stops getting income, then they can't support their farms and factories, then they all shut down and find something to profit on - oh yeah, what's everyone buying now? Soy, wheat, grains. We'll do those! Oh.. but damn, there's not enough people or money in the country to do it by hand, let's save time an energy by using machines! Damn! And let's keep them away by using pesticides!
And thus, animals are still dieing at the hands of crop machines and pesticides. So, in effect, it is physically -impossible- to stop unintentional deaths in farming, and there is NOTHING we can do about it.
Like it or not.
Not everyone needs their own farm. You just need an allotment - enough for you and your family. It doesn't take ten hectares to feed a few people. How do you think that most people are currently fed? With the farm land that's currently present. If everyone had an allotment, instead of a field, it would be a similar size - just split up into smaller patches of land.
There is something you can do about it - get an allotment and grow your own.
Land is expensive, we pay for our homes and our land with a job that pays well. Currently, over half of the country is in debt. Now, suddenly we quit our jobs so we have enough time to farm on our own, our income stops until we can harvest our food. Then we have to harvest it and put a good portion of it aside for our families (assuming we have a small farm). That immediately becomes lost income. Every dime spent on that food is lost. You sell the rest, and in effect, make less money than you spent growing the crops. In effect, your net profit is NEGATIVE.
How do we fix this? You get more land. Lots more. That way you can plant more food than you need, a substantially higher amount more. When you sell this back to the market after keeping some for yourself, your profit is higher and eventually goes over the amount you spent growing the crops. Thus, your income is GREEN.
So, as I said, we cannot physically do that. It is not possible. We would use up all the land quickly, and then what happens? Not everyone has even an acre to grow food. So they have to turn to buying from other farmers.
As you can see, I just described how it works already. The country has tried these things already. Why do you think we developed beyond it? Why do you think the industrial revolution even happened?
That is how life was back then. You had a farm and you grew everything for yourself and sold off what you didn't need. This was a HORRID way of life, otherwise we would have never grown beyond it. To ask all vegetarians to get an atollment and grow their own is asking a good portion of the country to devolve back into colonial times. And I dunno about you, but I am glad we moved beyond that.
On the contrary, you would spend much less money growing your own crop due to the markup along the way. It may take a person an entire day to harvest a field, but you don't have that kind of yield on a small allotment. It would only take perhaps an hour of your time per day, with a little more on the days that you till/sew and harvest. Some three hours should do it I think.
Perhaps money spent on growing food is lost, but much more is saved by contrast, considering the cost of food post-processing.
You're not thinking outside the box or in realistic numbers here.
There are plenty of vegetables which can sustain a family of 4 on a plot of land some 500 square metres. You might not be able to have tomatoes all the time, in a temperate region, but hey - vegetarianism is all about sacrifices, right?
No family is gonna live on beans and soy beans and all those tiny things all the time. You know it can't happen in this country, so just accept that.
I know it does no good to bitch about the meat industry cause that isn't gonna change either. People like the taste of meat too much and have driven themselves to believe they really NEED it for nourishment.
This discussion is done.
What do you mean I know it can't happen in this country? In your country, perhaps? Now you've demonstrated yet more ignorance.
I'm glad that we can agree on growing weary of the conversation, but in future reference, it's not very polite to sling something like that out. As if it were a cheap shot or a last word, only to declare that that's the end of the discussion and I have no recourse.
I've discussed my standpoint, and I've treated yours fairly. I've responded to your qualms with useful information, and you're not willing to concede anything. I conclude that this has been a waste of my time, and I'm left feeling the same way I do when I try to convince a religious person of how pernicious their belief system is.
Have a nice day.
Considering that, I didn't need to conceed anything.
YEs, when I say "This country" I am referring to "America." because in all reality that's where this kind of crap starts. My ignorance? I doubt it, your ignorance to recognize my inference towards where I come from is your own fault.
As you said before, "Just because he didn't spell it out for you doesn't mean you can't infer it." Just because I didn't spell it out for you doesn't mean you can't infer it. Well, obviously I did have to spell it out for you, as you did for me.
The point wasn't that ONLY beans grow quickly, the point was that foods LIKE beans only grow quickly, very small foods, and be realistic, no one is going to live off of those alone, they will want larger foods like tomatos, potatoes, watermelons, apples, etc.
I'm sorry you couldn't see fair treatment in my words, but don't place that on me, since it's not my fault, I did what I could and you took it wrong way.
Hadn't you decided to stop conversing already?
I'm sure you did realize what I meant, whatever helps you sleep at night.
It's obvious that you refuse to see things from the moral vegetarians point of view entirely, because you'll always have this thing stuck in your brain about it. <b>Their point isn't that "We don't kill animals." their point is that "We don't raise and murder them for our own enjoyment."</b>
Once you understand that, you'll realize this article has no real argument, it's just a ranting about a guy who was pissed to see "Guiltless Grill." on a menu.
However, I have to wonder. You didn't know what 'type' of vegetarian I am. You don't know if I consider myself 'more moral' or 'better' than people who eat meat. To clarify - I do not. I have plenty of friends who eat meat, my own fiance still eats fish, and the rest of my family are omnivores. And further more - I spent 21-somesuch years eating my fair share of meat. But, my decision is just that - it's mine and I do not think I'm better than anyone. I'm simply choosing a lifestyle that suits me, because I happen to support animals and animal rights, and I have chosen not to eat their flesh anymore or partake in the industry of factory farming, which sorely needs updating if nothing else.
So, why would you post that to offend when you don't even know what sort of vegetarian I am? What if I /don't/ have moral high-ground, what if I'm completely aware that even in my chosen path I may come across unsavory practices?
I guess it just sort of hurt my feelings. :/ After all, this was a journal simply asking how many people are vegetarian in the community of the 500 or so people that watch me, not asking omnivores to post about how they love eating meat or to post some snarky article. However, I support and embrace free speech - and you're perfectly as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Thank you for taking part in my discussion.
I did not just post this to "goad" people - I've already stated that in the above conversation - I did it to inform. I could write an essay extolling the virtues of erudition, I find it such a magnificent event.
I have already made the distinction between people who misinterpret vegetarianism as being more morally agreeable to those who merely do it due to religion, lifestyle or whatever else.
You see, it's a sad fact that many of the greatest moral crusades are taken up by people who just don't know the facts - I'm not just talking about vegetarianism. Feminism, environmental conservation, and animal rights all suffer this same rash of "rebels without causes" - people who's conviction is not related to the cause at hand - they just want to 'fit in'. They're scene kids. And I find that sickening.
The initial concept is a wonderful thing. It just gets used by people who are only out for theirselves. If you would like to see an illustration of this, check out the following clip of environmentalists signing up to ban water...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw
I would hope that posting such an article might get such posers to realise their folly. If someone wants to remain a vegetarian for moral reasons then by all means they can go for it - I would like to flush out the scene kids who are more likely to waver once they realise that their crusade isn't as clear-cut as expected.
If I found a thread full of PETA lovers, I would post the evidence that they kill hundreds of animals per year. My conviction is exactly the same - there are certain facets to each side of life that should be acknowledged, no matter how contrary the evidence is to someone's opinion.
My conviction to educate rather than troll is also evidenced by that massive argument I had above - no troll would put that much effort into getting some laughs, and I am entirely serious.
You've handled this in a very mature way, thank you.
I can assure you I have done my homework in my foray into this lifestyle choice, and I am aware that while I might choose the path of least destruction, it is not without destruction itself. It would be foolish to think anything in life could be completely without destruction - for isn't this existance a constant circle of life and death, and loss and gain? I hate to wax poetic like that, but I just want to share where I'm coming from myself.
Anyway, I have never been one to appreciate scene-kids myself, and I have never expected /anything/ in life to be clear-cut. But if I may choose to do something in my life that gives me emotional, daresay spiritual (though I admit I'm not the religious type) peace and contentment without hurting someone else, then I think I am entitled to that.
Now then, I do believe I'm done with this horrendously long comment. Thank you again for taking part and sharing your opinions - they are indeed insightful if not exactly news to me personally. I admire your conviction and your own maturity.
Good day.
And to answer your question, no. But in an ideal world people wouldn't be killed in car accidents. But this world is far from perfect, shit happens.
I could do that too. I could simply provide a link to a well thought out, well written article which contains a counter argument. The whole "But animals die in the harvest season" thing isn't exactly new. I first saw some one on a Veggie forum basing the users with that exact same argument 5 years ago.
I could think of plenty of things to type up, but Maddox's essay is the most erudite, pertinent and water-tight I have ever read. Anything I would write would be superfluous, and I would not want to waste your time.
Furthermore, please don't use such a label as "ignorance" to refer to Maddox. He currently appears more erudite than yourself, so I suggest you think over your dietary actions.
Yes, that's me inferring that you are of the 'moral' type of vegetarian, since you spent so much effort to reply to my response.
He says it perfectly, they are not intentionally killing animals. They are not killing them to sustain us, they are not relying solely on them for food, and they are not mass producing the grain farms for the sole reason of killing the animals for food.
It sucks that animals die during grain harvesting, and I'm sure every moral vegetarian would wish otherwise. But, SHIT HAPPENS. Shit happens that we cannot control or fix. Farming for slaughter is not one of those things.
As for my "effort" to reply. I'm sorry but WHAT effort? I haven't put much thought or effort into my replies as it's not worth that much of my time.
Let's get one thing straight. The reason I was and am being defensive is because I have never fucking preached my morals to other people. I'm not one of these Petatard zealots and I couldn't give two shits what other people eat (my fiancée eats meat for example). But yet I always see other people handing out this "Vegetarianism is bad because" bullshit. Of course I'm going to get defensive after hearing the same bullcrap for 5 years straight.
Oh and I'm only labeling him as ignorant over the issue, not his intelligence in general. It seems to be nothing more then a load of close minded "these people think differently to me so I must prove them wrong" bullshit.
Shit I better start shoving meat down my throat because some fucking dipshit animals die when veg and grains are harvested.
Quite frankly I couldn't care less. Go animate some shitty porn and stop wasiting my time.
And when you think about it ...
Pig's and chickens eat corn.
Cows eat grass and grain.
So meat is merely a vehicle for me to eat vegetables 8)
...well, anyway, you know my stance, i think.
I used to love meat, before i really thought about it. It was just the way i'd been brought up, and stuff. (I'm sure that's pretty typical)
But once i started learning about horse slaughter it started making me feel increasingly uncomfortable... even though i wasn't eating them, still... it's all the same brand of horror. So i had to stop, because it was making me a bit sick (i mean mentally, not physically.) Horses are people, and i know this... so why wouldn't bovines be too?
Maybe that part of my reasoning is a little different than most.
So yeah, it was a little more than two years ago, and i'm still very happy about the decision. Someday, perhaps i'll go entirely vegan, but that's where it becomes difficult, and where nutrition becomes more of a factor. People are always saying like "oh you won't get the protein you need! you're going to get sick and die! zomg your brain will shrink!" and stuff... but it's really not that difficult to be vegetarian at all if you still eat cheese and milk, or eggs. ...those industries bother me too, and sometime maybe i'll go the next step...
But... as far as nutrition goes, there's nothing you have to worry about at this stage.
Protein is easy to get anyway... it's true that you don't need all that much... a bag of peanuts probably has enough for a day. Iron is the hardest thing to get, but it's still not that hard... beans and spinach! Not to mention most cereals and breads these days are enriched with iron.
I seriously doubt the accuracy of "Nutrition Facts" actually... you know, the things they have on labels, with the percentages - er, okay, i don't doubt the facts of what's in the product, but i do have a lot of skepticism when it comes to their assessment of what you need, the Percent Daily Values...
According to those things, you'd have to eat like 5 cans of beans to get 100% of your daily requirement of iron, and that's rediculous.
I think it's pretty easily scrutinized because afterall... this is info that the USDA feeds us (er, i'm assuming you live in the USA) ...and certainly the USDA doesn't want us to stop eating big slabs of beef.
Tangent... I think i'll stop now. :P Man, i totally didn't intend to make a long comment...
It;s been two years, and i'm still healthy. I can still jump off of high-up things without my legs snapping like twigs, i can still sprint, i can still think clearly, though some of the people i've argued with will probably say otherwise...
So... let the fact that there are non-carnivorous people out there who have good health give you strength!
And i say good going. :)
Anywho! I'm actually mostly vegan - the only egg/dairy products I might happen to consume come from processed foods, and bakery goods that I may not know the ingredients. I'm weaning myself from those as I can. To me the dairy and egg industry is as cruel as the meat industry. Actually, I think the egg industry is really just sick - the chickens are literally tortured, and then eventually killed anyway, after their bodies give out from producing eggs, and their organs fail or they succumb to disease due to their cramped and filthy living conditions. x.x; Sorry for my own tangeant! I find it so sad though. :{ The hen's beaks are cut off at the tip so they can't peck eachother, and if the chicks they produce are born male they are crushed to death. ;_; Augh!
Okay, I'm done, sorry. Just had to get that out.
Anyway, I don't trust USDA labels all that much - 'specially not when there are so many ingrediants that have animal by-products or even things like table sugar that still in-directly support animal exploitation by using the bone-char process.
Anyway - I plan on living out a healthy vegetarian life. I'll no longer take my sustinance for beings that I consider equal to myself, and just as worthy of life. True, there are carnivores in the wild - but they do what nature demands they do - while human beings have choices and alternatives, and can be just as healthy without.
*highfive!* Thanks for sharing EC. :}
I concur with ecmajor on that.
I even find it funny that some one linked to a comic about bunnies dying from harvesters. lulz wut?
I worked on a farm for fucking months and not one rabbit died. Just a few mice. There WAS rabbits and mice but they generally fucked off when harvest session started.
Did I go around the fields and check? No, because I didn't need to. I worked as a grader on the back of the harvester. If the machine is capable of picking up HUGE as lumps of limestone then I'm sure it was more then capable of picking up dead animals.
Anyway. I've been a veggie for 5 years. Haven't under gone any real lifestyle or health changes as a result. Maybe a little bit more healthy now, but that's because I generally look after myself a bit more.
-S.G.
Anyway, thank you nonetheless for bringing to light a very good point.