I've been saying the same thing about gay rights, affirmative action, and all that. I lost my chance at a job with the local police department because two of the applicants who did worse than I did on the test were black. I never said I was gay, I don't think they give you points for that.

Absolutely.

As an ally, what really gets me is hearing those religious bigots rant about how promiscuous the "gay lifestyle" is, and yet at the same time wanting to keep society from giving GLBT people the support (legally, spiritually, and culturally) they need to sustain committed long-term relationships. Apparently they just want gay people to be celibate-- or not exist. :/

Personally I want nothing to do with a church oriented ceremony that tells me that I love someone. As far as I'm concerned, let the straight bigots have their marriage, we can come up with something better.

While I love the sentiment "if A can do it, then B should be able to do it too" I must add an important (i.m.o) qualifier:

"If A has the opportunity to pursue X, then B should have equal opportunity to pursue X"

I think all too often the idea of equality is translated to equality of outcomes which is entirely impossible -- given the variability of human talents and individuality, among so many other things -- and fatal to any community trying to achieve it.

Excellent point.

True, but I'm not talking about specifics, such as two people trying for the same job and one isn't as qualified...I'm talking about basic human rights. And if two straight people have the basic civil right to marry, then two same-sex people should have that same exact right, not just a watered-down, similar right. I mean that gay people are equal under the law--absolutely equal.

Aye, I understand.

I realized after the fact that my post was way more affirmative action/quota-based hiring related.

lol The day that we all can just say that "people are people", we'll keep on with the Dance of the Short Yellow Schoolbus. It's funny how we talk about everything's the same, but it really isn't. How one can be an outcast by having dark skin or no money, like to fuck a guy in the ass or lives in the Middle-East.

It's sadly amusing, and I'm not even that much into wry humor lol

Coming from the perspective of a religious gay person (who just happens to like furry art... we've all got our vices), the reason behind the promiscuity, depression, and drug use withing the queer community STEMS from that same bigotry.

Think about it: repressing your sexuality, never being able to fall in love with who you would out of fear, hating yourself - feeling hated by others. It all comes down on a person so hard that they can't have a healthy relationship with a person of the same gender because, at least on some level, they don't believe they can - because that's all our society tells them.

My argument against why nothing in the Bible actually refers to gay sex (that isn't abusive i.e. rape, prostitution, etc) would take forever though... suffice to say that God is Love, and gay love is fine by Him. LOL

Woot! I particularly like this point of yours:
"the reason behind the promiscuity, depression, and drug use withing the queer community STEMS from that same bigotry."

It reminds me of a discussion in my friend's class that he told me about, where someone (I forget who) asked a bunch of people "What would you do if it was the other way around, if you found society hated you, prevented you from obtaining basic human rights and from pursuing happiness and love?" and the person replied,"...I think I'd want to kill myself." to which the other person replied "Yeah, a lot of gays DO suicide."

Some people...just don't realize that we're people too, that we breathe the same air, walk the same earth, feel the same range of emotions. And the fact that I know some people want non-straights to die...that scares me shitless.

i need to think on this..

If any of my gay friends were planning on getting married, I would provide these words of caution:

1) Government has sunk its claws deeply into marriage, and almost anything is an excuse now days for a government agent sticking a gun in your face. Divorce law should not be confused with justice. If the marriage doesn't work out, both parties may be consigned to years of very expensive government designed hell. In reality, marriage and divorce laws are primarily for the benefit of the lawyers, not the betrothed. Whether you are gay or straight, pay a divorce lawyer for a couple hours of his or her time before you tie the knot. A well written marriage contract with express provisions for dissolution could help prevent you from being a virtual slave for decades.

2) If the Feds ever recognize gay marriage and both parties earn income, you will be royally screwed by the income tax marriage penalty, especially if the two parties have approximately equal incomes. The Wall Street Journal had a tax accountant run the numbers for two gays, each earning $65,000 per year. If they didn't get married but simply lived together (so that they could file two individual unmarried tax returns), they would have over $1,000,000 greater net worth at retirement. That is a terribly high price!

Neither of these points bear on whether gays should be allowed to marry. Of course they should have that choice. But the highly attractive forbidden fruit contains much hidden poison. A cohabitation contract makes a lot more sense to me.

It should just go the libertarian way; 'outlaw' marraige in general. All it is is a contract, so they should let it be a contract without the connotative strings attached.

Yes, I think that we SHOULD go back to where we were at the start of the country. Religious marriage was religious marriage, civil unions were civil unions.

Most people did both. One for 'sanctity' or community, whatever, the other for recognition of rights.

The mechanisms for it are still in place across most of the country - marriage licenses, etc.

Does a cohabitation contract allow one partner to see the other if he/she is put in the hospital? Will they call the significant other if he/she isn't around at the time the person is put in the hospital, or if the person dies? This is a privilege granted to only close family members, after all.

I'm not really arguing with you or saying your points aren't valid (because they do make sense), just posing some questions/points that immediately come to mind, since I think many people want benefits of marriage that go beyond finances.

No, but this can be accomplished with a notarized medical power of attorney. This gives you the same access rights to visit the patient, examine the medical records, discuss the case with physicians, and actually make medical decisions in case the patient is unconscious or mentally incompetent as would being married to them.

You don't need a lawyer to draw one up; you can probably find one free on the web, perhaps at AARP. Your bank will probably provide free notary services to customers. Each member of a couple should make out a medical power of attorney naming the other. This should be done now, not after one of you is in a hospital. The medical power of attorney does NOT have to describe your relationship or why one person chose the other for this purpose. It is probably best not to do so to avoid running afoul of a homophobic hospital bureaucrat. It there are any access problems after presenting the document (sign several and get them notarized when signing - they may want to keep an original), just ask for the phone number of the nurse's or doctor's and or hosptial's legal firm. The magic word is "malpractice"!

Aha. That does sound like a good idea.

Of course, same sex marriage should be legalized just for that whole equality issue and because some people are religious, hee. But you do make a lot of sense and such. Are you in a profession that requires you to know the workings of law, or have you just studied extensively on your own out of curiosity and/or for your own benefit?

I'm a biotechnologist and have had to learn a lot of contract and intellectual property law to protect myself. There are a lot of incompetent lawyers out there. Being bi, and having gay friends, I've looked into these matters for them. I had the medical power of attorney for an elderly friend who died recently, so I have had first hand experience. They work!

Woo! Well, that's quite helpful, thanks. ^^

Golly, thank you very much! Law is a lot like magic; if you use exactly the right words, they are commands that must be taken seriously, and you can make things happen.

Cohabitation and property ownership contracts and medical powers of attorney are no substitute for homophobes changing their values, but the power of the law can sure as hell force them to change some of their actions.

Hehe, what are you thanking me for?

Your delighted response. Most people want someone else to deliver a global solution to them on a golden platter: e.g., gay marriage and an end to homophobia. There are a few like you who are willing to take responsibility for saving their own asses and those of their friends, even if no one is saving the whole world for them.

Aha. Yeah. I want same sex marriage legalized and the world to change, but in the mean time if I can't have that, I'll settle for something else while I fight for the other. And in the end, I just want some security in life.

Really, it just seems like common sense to me.

LOL Yeah, I guess I should have qualified my statement by saying that I personally don't give a damn what it's called or whether gay people should do it or not--I just take exception to the idea that straight people think gays aren't "good enough" to get "married". I say LIVE TOGETHER IN SIN!

^0^

considering my family unit doesnt fit in either i wonder if it would work universaly

Very well spoken.

Really, all it takes is for the people in this world to look inside for once. The answer is obvious. Why people ignore their hearts so frequentely ... it appalls - and saddens - me.

It's a choice. You can follow your heart, or ignore it. Why do we ignore them?...




... why?

I agree. How long ago was it that interracial marrages were illegal? Why can't gay people get married? How would gay marrages harm the 'sanctity' of 'normal' marrages?

Only insofar as the fact that the civil authorities recognizing gay rights would make it possible for people to stop living in the closet and be acceptable to society--which people on the extreme right (and often not even that extreme) can't bring themselves to stomach. God forbid two men should be able to hold hands in public, where just ANYBODY could see it!

Heaven forbid two people show affection in public. Thought we had evolved past the caveman days.

Yep, I agree. I have a feeling some politicians might agree too but hold the "civil union" banner just so they don't scare off votes.

One of the most hypocritical things I've seen someone against same sex marriage do is criticize Hillary Clinton for sticking with her husband. It's pick and choose... the so-called sanctity of marriage is destroyed when same sex partners can marry, yet Hillary doesn't get respect for sticking with her husband? I'd have thought such social conservatives would applaud her for that!

Why do people call it "gay" marriage also? When a bisexual marries a bisexual or a bisexual marries a homosexual person calling it "gay" marriage just doesn't work. They may be in a monogamous same sex relationship but that doesn't change what they are. It only really irks me when the media refers to it as "gay" marriage rather than same sex marriage.

It never ceases to amaze me why people think that OTHER PEOPLE are not allowed to get married.

Glad to know there is some sense in this world. The rest, and forgive me for being to harsh, are def, blind, dumb, and born to follow.

...issues like this get me riled up.

I love Harvey <3 :)

'Gay and Wobbly' **chuckles** Cute, I like that one...

And I agree with you completely on this. I have been wondering when someone who isn't gay would get a clue, but I don't think they will. "If X person can do it, then Y person can do it too." Absolutely no reason why anyone should be excluded from doing anything because there's something about them that is different.

When it comes to physical deficiencies or mental handicaps that actually prevent them from doing certain things due purely to biological limitations, that is not society's doing, that's just the way things are and they need to learn to figure out a different way to do things, and sometimes need help. Nothing wrong with that.

But if it's soley because of gender, race, religion, sexuality, etc that prevents someone from doing what others do, that is TOTAL bull shit thankyouverymuch.