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Thoughts on Suicide Redux
14 years ago
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█ Typical warning, do not read if you're not interested in the subject, you have that choice.
█ Two years ago (or so FA says) I made a journal entry in regards to my thoughts about the subject, and due to hearing about a possible one in the community recently my thoughts return back to it.
My opinion on it still remains the same, and the ignorance of some people remain the same. The part that makes me laugh (because my only alternative is to seethe with anger) is how it's called a selfish act. I'm sorry, but considering how people treat others like dirt, you don't have any right to call the person who takes their life selfish. The ones who are living, the ones who interacted with the deceased: you abused that life. You abused it, mistreated it, and drug it through the dirt; and you have the gall to say that people who commit suicide are selfish?
Secondly, no one has the right to claim they've "been there." Tried to kill yourself and failed? Tried and failed it multiple times? Sorry, but you're not "there" you didn't cross that final line. If you've "been there" learn humility, just because you returned from the brink doesn't mean everyone can. Good on you, you have your life back, but there's one stark reality you're ignoring if you think you've been there, and came back insisting that everyone else can do it: You didn't hurt the most. Your pain wasn't the worst in the world; people can and do hurt more than you ever did.
Yes we all suffer, but don't for a second think you've hurt the most in the world; only one person can ever lay claim to that, and I assure you that person is not among the living.
All I can ever really say to those who commit suicide out of despair is this: I hope your pain and suffering has stopped, for I do not think I can imagine how deep you had to suffer. Life is to be enjoyed, and I am saddened that yours had to be filled with so much hurt.
I fear we will not learn.
As for those who say that it may be all a hoax, I don't care. My heart bleeds from the pain and suffering the world endures. Someone has to give a damn, even if it's someone as cynical as myself. I'd rather care and be made a fool, than to not care and add to the suffering of the world.
It gets hard, it really does. The more I experience the 'real world' the less I wish to be involved with it.
So I laugh at the world, what other choice do I have? But to be crushed by the despair instead.
█ An off thought I have now and then is that I'm tempted to write a book on 'life' just personal opinions, views, insights; yadda yadda. I suppose a sort of personal manifesto or something. I can't think of any real reason of why I want to do it aside from giving my thoughts structured form. I think more on life and the world than I do about the stuff I do here on FA, and that 'stuff' though does give all that I do here structure, form, and reason. I just have to decide on when I want to sit down and do it.
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█ Typical warning, do not read if you're not interested in the subject, you have that choice.
█ Two years ago (or so FA says) I made a journal entry in regards to my thoughts about the subject, and due to hearing about a possible one in the community recently my thoughts return back to it.
My opinion on it still remains the same, and the ignorance of some people remain the same. The part that makes me laugh (because my only alternative is to seethe with anger) is how it's called a selfish act. I'm sorry, but considering how people treat others like dirt, you don't have any right to call the person who takes their life selfish. The ones who are living, the ones who interacted with the deceased: you abused that life. You abused it, mistreated it, and drug it through the dirt; and you have the gall to say that people who commit suicide are selfish?
Secondly, no one has the right to claim they've "been there." Tried to kill yourself and failed? Tried and failed it multiple times? Sorry, but you're not "there" you didn't cross that final line. If you've "been there" learn humility, just because you returned from the brink doesn't mean everyone can. Good on you, you have your life back, but there's one stark reality you're ignoring if you think you've been there, and came back insisting that everyone else can do it: You didn't hurt the most. Your pain wasn't the worst in the world; people can and do hurt more than you ever did.
Yes we all suffer, but don't for a second think you've hurt the most in the world; only one person can ever lay claim to that, and I assure you that person is not among the living.
All I can ever really say to those who commit suicide out of despair is this: I hope your pain and suffering has stopped, for I do not think I can imagine how deep you had to suffer. Life is to be enjoyed, and I am saddened that yours had to be filled with so much hurt.
I fear we will not learn.
As for those who say that it may be all a hoax, I don't care. My heart bleeds from the pain and suffering the world endures. Someone has to give a damn, even if it's someone as cynical as myself. I'd rather care and be made a fool, than to not care and add to the suffering of the world.
It gets hard, it really does. The more I experience the 'real world' the less I wish to be involved with it.
So I laugh at the world, what other choice do I have? But to be crushed by the despair instead.
█ An off thought I have now and then is that I'm tempted to write a book on 'life' just personal opinions, views, insights; yadda yadda. I suppose a sort of personal manifesto or something. I can't think of any real reason of why I want to do it aside from giving my thoughts structured form. I think more on life and the world than I do about the stuff I do here on FA, and that 'stuff' though does give all that I do here structure, form, and reason. I just have to decide on when I want to sit down and do it.
That said, I empathize with you and agree with your thoughts in many ways. I do not consider suicide selfish, but at the very least I'd like the opportunity to save someone that I know from killing themselves by showing them the love and compassion they probably lack. It would be... hard... to watch somebody I know take their own life. Unbearably hard, considering how much empathy I hold for people.
People are not selfish in suicide, its the people who end up missing them that are, selfish because they aren't around anymore for them to say "im sorry" for something or to encourage them, to cheer them up.. they are selfish cause they now feel they could have done something to help but never had the chance.
I'd do the deed if I weren't such a coward.
maybe cynics ARE the best suited to the job - our armer is strongest were it counts.
When I was I guess 10 or 11 my father tired to kill himself. I was always angry at him for thinking life was so bad he didn't want to live. I didn't understand why my love was not good enough to keep him around instead of seeking death. It hurt that he only thought of his pain and what he was going through.
I was a child, I didn't understand there is mental illness in the world. I didn't understand that for some their soul, their minds and their hearts can only take so much and then they break. So to say my fathers actions where selfish was very easy. I heard it several times from many medical professionals as well as clergy. But now I know different, I know the truth.
And what I have come to learn as a personnal truth as I too have considered suicide. Don't judge till you walk a mile in my heart, my soul and my mind. Don't judge when something is not able to be fixed by an icecream cone or a bandaid. And don't call it a selfish act because no one was able to fix what was wrong and make it better.
The bottom line is it is a tragedy. It is a loss. It is the end of something that could have been better or of something that could not. What it is not, is a selfish act.
I considered suicide when I was in middle school, people would pick on me, some kids would beat on me. Everyone seemed to use me as a dummy for their insults and a reference for stupidity(Even though half of them were fucking idiots). It only went as far as trying to suffocate myself, which never went to far as I didn't have the proper equipment to do it.
I'm glad I didn't as I learned there was always a way through it. No matter what they did to me, it didn't matter, in the end, some of them ended up as lowlifes the ones that weren't stupid have no one who gives a fuck about their future. I get to boast that I went on and have a chance in life, unlike them. It's a terrible thought, but it's my own personally revenge to be able to know these things. Karma, if it exists, hit them hard.
Finishing that, I say that those who do commit acts of suicide may they rest in peace and I'm keeping the rest of this opinion to myself.
If a person has nothing but another admiration and view of them, and that's all they live for; if they destroy or lose that then they end up with nothing to live for. I'm somewhat reminded a bit of ritualistic suicide to keep one's honor, because in that situation being without honor is worse than death, and that suicide is the only way for redemption. Not quite the same yes, but I'm just saying that for some people there's things worse than death. Not everyone has the same level of tolerance for being made to feel less of a person.
My spouse found a card of mine (like, minutes ago) from a peer support group I was in fifteen years ago. Of them, only half still live, though I've lost contact with most of them. Two died from suicidal (but not actually intentional suicide) behavior, I think one from actual, suicide, but I couldn't confirm it. We'd all been to the edge, and promised the best way through was to focus on living, enjoying, getting through. Maybe it wasn't enough.
I dunno. It's come close recently, close friends of acquaintances have committed suicide this year. I don't know how to console them.
Lastly, I think people <i>do</i> have the right to claim to have been there. Some have scars, other do not. Some spent years on medication, some never leave that treatment. Some woke up days later or found someone who'd show them the light. But that place filled with no hope and only darkness? People live there. It's not much solace to here that someone else has been there, since their path is not your path... But we shouldn't demean their experience.
That's not 'been there' to me. To be 'there' is to have nothing; to have nothing but pain. The kind of pain might be different, but there has to be no light, no hope, no redemption, no salvation. That the only thing you are faced with is oblivion or a continued existence of pain in where who and what you are are taken from you piece by agonizing piece; the pain growing day by day, testing your limits, testing your resolve, testing your will, testing your sanity.
It's one thing to be in a dark place with no light, it's another to be in a dark place while you are torn apart.
Still, some people build an ego off that experience and for some reason decide to thumb their nose down at people who commit suicide. Seems like hypocrisy to me if those people who came back from the brink tried to commit suicide and then failed.
Unless you know with absolute certainty that there's some 'max' level that people reach and come back from, then no it's not unfair to say there's another level. The paradox of the point of no return, is no one returns. People who come back from the point of no return didn't reach that point; all that says to me is one little push in the other direction and they would have sunk to that point of no return and they'd be dead. It's a simple as that.
Of course one could probably do an experiment in where someone is mentally and physically tortured but an eye kept on to ensure they didn't kill themselves. To ensure that every waking moment is as painful as possible, with no escape, with no help. You'd probably see that person self-mutilate with their own hands and teeth, then you could ensure they couldn't harm themselves that way and continue to make their life as miserable as possible. You could ask a question every day "Do you want to die?" and then start marking down at what point they start saying yes over and over and over. Then that could be repeated for dozens of more individuals and see where that 'level' is.
I certainly don't think it's impossible to break a person down so much that when given the first chance they'll kill themselves immediately to stop the pain. It's a matter of likelihood. Roll the dice to see if that person will kill themselves that day due to the nature of their existence, most of the time it's going to be less than 1%, but that chance goes up with the more pain and suffering you inject into their lives, and eventually you'll reach a chance in where it ends up being 100%.
· everybody goes sometime though the needing of commit suicide. above all, on the teenage. but commonly, it doesn't go further than a feeling that dispersal almost as soon as it comes.
· the feelings of death are always present on our lives. that's what trows us to ride the roller coaster or play an horror videogame. is a kind of self destruction installed by default on our system.
· the feelings of life, are strongest than the feelings of death, and that's witch keeps us alive every time that we contemplate the view from a hill, or from a high building. that's the mechanism on our body that tells us "don't do it", and preserves our body from being hurt... by ourselves...
· also, the psychology defines suicide as a fail on the feelings of life's mechanisms.
from my own experience, I could say that many of us has been thought a situation that feel bigger than we can afford. some people stand still and goes on, some others starts thinking about how much his own life worth, whit a very negative on there...
I could say "I've been there". I've been thinking about that many times, and almost for jump for once.
in those times, the only that I could rescue to say that something kept me alive is the fact of think on those that loved me, and how they'd react. the other half is the simply cowardice of the unknow. the myths about heaven and hell, and what happens to whom commit suicide. Not about being religious, but my family is, and something of the predicted has been kept on me =/... also... the doubt: "and if there's nothing? maybe the hell is remain stuck in your own body..." (I've really read a story about that and is still stuck in my head dxUu...)...
as much, to the suicidal, I don't have pity for them. some kind of respect, because of have the bravery of afford the unknow. even without knowing if they're really gonna made it. also, this feeling is mixed with some kind of reproach to them, because even if they feel all alone, there's always someone in the world that will be hurt because of his acts...
well... that's more or less as I see it... sorry if I made a kind of mistake, I know that my english grammar sucks, but now I'm really tired, and I wanted to post my view on the topic...
if there's some kind of mistake or something that you're interested ond don't understand, just let me know...
greetings, and sorry again for the very long coment... -HUG!-
Though when it comes to Heaven and Hell, a fun thought experiment is this: "What if the only people who go to Heaven are those who don't believe in God?" Cause it could work that way after all.
About religion, is something that I prefer not treat, 'cuz many people get it a little rude, and usually get offended about that... =/... I'm agnostic, and yes, sometimes I wonder what if all those lies that every church predict condemns the ppl that believe in them... =/....
I think in recent years, suicide, or the threat of it, has lost all impact and lagitamacy. Simply put, emos have ruined it. I saw a guy once who was emo over a rollercoster not being what he expected. Heaven forfend. Made worse by people making problems a trivial game. A case of 'who has the worst ordeal'.
You have some way of saying everything I think or could ever take the time to realize when you post your thoughts like these.
From what I heard, if you're talking about the same person I'm thinking of, people were poking fun at their death and cracking jokes- and I can't believe people do things like that. One of the main stressors that they believed caused them to do what they did was bullying on this website, and even in death it isn't escapable.
As for it being selfish, I agree with what you said on most counts. If your family beats you and makes you do their dirty work every day the only thing 'selfish' about it is one less outlet for that family to get what they want regardless of others. I've heard stories of people committing suicide just to spite someone, or over something unimportant (Runescape, iPods, etc) in a life they were living that was far from terrible, and while I can't call that selfish, it's more of a lack of thinking on the effects of what it can cause. Suicide can destroy families and others lives in the right circumstances, but the point of being selfish is to gain something- and suicide means a loss of everything.
I either want to die in my sleep, or die on my terms - I wouldn't have it any other way, and I don't think most people would either.
I tried suicide a few times; I don't think it's made me a better person, but made me realize I can wait a while and see how things play out. I've helped others come back from the brink, and they've gone and forgotten about me, but I don't care - I like helping people, and hell, I'm in college to be a Psychologist or Counselor :B
I have to agree that dying on one's own terms is probably the best way to go. I don't think I'd want to die a violent painful death as my body fails me, or even worse due to my mind being destroyed by some disease.
"Why did you join the Army, cadet?"
"Oh, Im suicidal"
O.o <--The DI
This wasnt an anti-suicide board either. these were people discussing methods and getting really technical in their descriptions of what they have tried, what they had researched, where stuff went wrong... ect.
these were the friendliest, most intelligent people i have ever met. They simply had had enough with life and were set to get out of it.
Shame -they- werent breeding instead of some of the people that are spreading around. >_<
i havent talked to many in quite some time. Here's hoping they found what they were looking for :)
In the end, everything we do is driven by some sort of selfishness. Even if you do something just because it's the right thing to do, you're doing it to feel good, to feel like you're a good person. Plus, everyone dies. If it's not suicide, it's cancer, a car crash, heart attack, etc. People are going to suffer emotionally. It's all a matter of if it's better to get the pain out of the way so they can move on sooner or if it's better to let them go one more day without that emotional pain and one more day after that and one more day after that and...
Me? I've thought of it. I have a hard time making friends and my awkwardness around girls I like ranges from painful to crippling. I have piss-poor grades in a city where only the really educated can make enough money to not have to worry about food or paying the mortgage/rent. I can't see myself with a family of my own, owning a house without bullet holes, or eating three meals a day (or week) if I ever had to move out. I know I'm screwed and I know my reasons for contemplating slashing my throat, jumping in front of a bus, or drinking those household chemicals. In the end, I was both too strong (didn't want to hurt my family) and too weak (it gets surprisingly hard to do it when the knife's in your hand) to go through with it.
I may not have walked it, but I've seen that path. I've walked past it. If there's any reason I'm still alive, I have no idea what it is. The metaphorical path is real and is scary. It keeps me up at night (that, the idea of hell, and those damn Dio songs that won't leave my head.
The only way a suicide could really be selfish is if the person doing it actually thought their life had value. Most people who kill themselves view their lives as worthless, or less than worthless. So how can the removal of something worthless, or detrimental to the people around them be selfish?
Just how I view things anyways.
you have friends bro.
Are best to draw latex comics
"Yes we all suffer, but don't for a second think you've hurt the most in the world; only one person can ever lay claim to that, and I assure you that person is not among the living." Do you have someone specific in mind? And that's irrelevant-everybody who is unhappy might as well be the most hurt in the world, simply because that's how they feel it. Every individual human has only their own perspective, you know.
Would be a lot simpler if assisted suicide was legal. =/
My opinion on children is another matter, probably similar to what George Carlin said in one of his bits: "They're incomplete, I don't give marks for incomplete works." I'm sort of the believe that most lives are inherently worth little, and the worth of any given individual life is dependent on what they were able to do with that life. So really all children have very little worth, but as they grow into an individual then they can end up being someone to be celebrated (or loathed). In the end actual worth and potential are two separate things. Everyone has potential, but that's not something that's in the real.
This especially applies to single parents. If you had kids, wait til they're older before you check out.
The world seems very cruel, and I'm afraid to step out into it, as I'm young at only 19, when compared to some others here.
Case in point, I agree with everything you've said, and I'll keep this in mind for the rest of my life. Thank you, Endium.
Some people also believe that they can ease the suffering of others by removing themselves. I would venture that these are usually not people who actually would make others better off by dying. But, while the living feel the loss, something taken away from them, the act was not selfish, but self-less, because, for whatever reason, they did not know that they mattered to the people around them.
I've thought about death many times, I've "thought about considering" (as I phrase it) suicide many times, and a few times started to weigh the pros and cons and think about a way that might not hurt. Oddly enough, I often have little patience for other people unless there seems to be a real cause for their suffering and/or they're trying to get some help. I know someone whose general way of speaking seems to include allusions to suicide (some blatant), but because he says it so often, I don't really take it that seriously. The fact that he says something tells me he's not so likely to do it. I'll remind him that if he's feeling like that, there are things he can do, that "help is available" and so forth. As far as I know the worst tragedy in his life was his parents getting divorced. I don't say what's really on my mind in his case, though, because I feel like (rightly or wrongly) I've been through more...my attitude is "I'm still here, so get some help or quit complaining to me." I suppose when you get down to it, I get angry about some of it because, if he's really seriously planning to kill himself, I don't feel like I can do anything for him, and I don't like to feel powerless like that. Maybe the circumstances of my life have turned me into an asshole to a certain extent. I dunno. If he called me up crying, saying that he was ready to do it, I think that would be different...but a text message or IM saying "I'm going to jump off a bridge. Later." just kindof annoys me after getting things like that frequently.
As far as other people insisting that those who are suffering hang on...I think that can be the truly selfish thing, though. We want to hold out hope that things will get better, but time and again I see how people cannot be depended on to do anything, and how systems in the world are at best inaccessible to many people in need, and often actually work to make things worse for everyone. Can a "mood disorder" be a terminal illness? Maybe so. There's no guarantee that I'll hold out. There's no guarantee for any of us.
If the people around you complain about it, they need to look at the reasons why.
They were your reasons. Your choice. hey complain cos they sometimes now who's to blame. Eg "lost house, lost job, lost family, lost use of limbs" I'd like to see someone tell me that person would be selfish for wanting to end it.
Horribly expressed, but my opinion.