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Second: Occupy Wall Street
14 years ago
I'd like to point out that it's easy to critisize programs you don't completely understand. I'm not going to address everything involved, and I can only comment on the system we have in Canada, the American system is far different.
Some of what I hear is that people are sick of corporations paying less tax.
See... The thing is, Corporations are actually taxed twice. Once when they make their money (Which I'll admit is on a different schedule than the average taxpayer) then again when their remaining earnings are payed out in dividends. (Which are taxed at the same rate as everyone else, because it's based off the recipient's income.) The reason it's a common misconception that corportaions pay less tax is because they take part in tax shelters (investing in Canada savings bonds, or charitable donations are examples) and so even though they don't technically pay those dollars in tax, they do pay them in ways that are socially necessary. Pick a corporation, any corportation. Chances are they've made massive charitable donations to the Red Cross, or something equally beneficial to society. Is this for PR? No, it's because they get a tax break. But it is nice.
More than that, depending on where you are, corporations account for a number somewhere more than half the tax dollars actually collected. I just read a report that over the last few years, the number was close to 65%. Look at that. We are the 99%, They are the 1%, and they pay the majority of taxation.
The fact of the matter is, the more pressure we put on our corporations, the less appealing we look for future investment. Corporations aren't going to pull stakes and run, they have too much sunk in already... but that new office they were going to offer? Mexico has some nice tax brackets? Mexico too volatile? China would LOVE our business. And you know what? Again, Canadian numbers, but depending on your province, up to and including 80% of people work for corporations.
Yes changes need to be made. But get educated first. And don't bite the hand that feeds. This isn't the way to make things better.
Some of what I hear is that people are sick of corporations paying less tax.
See... The thing is, Corporations are actually taxed twice. Once when they make their money (Which I'll admit is on a different schedule than the average taxpayer) then again when their remaining earnings are payed out in dividends. (Which are taxed at the same rate as everyone else, because it's based off the recipient's income.) The reason it's a common misconception that corportaions pay less tax is because they take part in tax shelters (investing in Canada savings bonds, or charitable donations are examples) and so even though they don't technically pay those dollars in tax, they do pay them in ways that are socially necessary. Pick a corporation, any corportation. Chances are they've made massive charitable donations to the Red Cross, or something equally beneficial to society. Is this for PR? No, it's because they get a tax break. But it is nice.
More than that, depending on where you are, corporations account for a number somewhere more than half the tax dollars actually collected. I just read a report that over the last few years, the number was close to 65%. Look at that. We are the 99%, They are the 1%, and they pay the majority of taxation.
The fact of the matter is, the more pressure we put on our corporations, the less appealing we look for future investment. Corporations aren't going to pull stakes and run, they have too much sunk in already... but that new office they were going to offer? Mexico has some nice tax brackets? Mexico too volatile? China would LOVE our business. And you know what? Again, Canadian numbers, but depending on your province, up to and including 80% of people work for corporations.
Yes changes need to be made. But get educated first. And don't bite the hand that feeds. This isn't the way to make things better.
If the hand was feeding us that would be an excellent point.
I can't speak for Canada, but seeing that you did mention the Wall Street here in the US I feel i have some right to say something.
One of our largest problems is the fact that those tax dogging strategies can have a cause and effect relationship with tax rates, That being said, I think the individuals in these corporations dogging taxes are the issue here, not the corporations themselves.
And, it's not just the Corporations. It's the governmental subservience to corporate interests that is being protested. Not to mention that we pay interest with our tax dollars for all printed money from the federal reserve that is printed simply to bury us deeper into deficit. It's mismanagement on the political, and financial side. We do not hold the power of law making in contrast to corporately funded special interest groups.
Now, with the threat of loosing what little social programs we have while we do pay our tax dollar, you can see why many are frustrated with a government bailout of these poor performing corporations. Essentially, we are dealing with huge unemployment rates in the middle and lower class, and they comparability get little to no governmental help. Yet, huge corporations get those very same individuals tax money to stay afloat.
If you did the math, each job created by Wall Street's tax payer funded life support costs an insane amount of money.
I do apologize for the over simplistic math, but just as a quick example, let me use some basic approximations for what I am talking about.
From December 2007 to December 2009 We lost roughly 8,363,000 Jobs in the United states. That is roughly about 6% of all Jobs here.
The bailouts from the federal reserve, and the US government came out when all was said and done to 4,600,000,000 (yes trillions) dollars.
In December of 2010 where able to get back 1,600,000 jobs had been recovered.
That means we payed over 4,000,000 dollars for each job recovered.
That money gone back to the tax payers in the 99% could have really helped fund infrastructure programs, health programs, education programs, subsidies for small business.
Instead, we managed to get service sector jobs, and kept failing companies that directly where involved in their own deregulation a few more years to wave the proverbial carrot of "jobs" in our faces.
I am truly envious of you in Canada if you do not have to deal with these unsettling issues. However, I thing In the United states this was a long time coming.
And it's not necessarily corporate greed.
Don't get me wrong, corporate greed is insidious, because corporations are only interested in making money. (That's not necessarily a bad thing, usually) but the thing is, the 99% seem to forget that they themselves had a part to play in the whole situation as well.
See, there were times, I'll put World War II as a famous example, where the American people sacrificed for the greater good. They accepted a food stamp system, they tightened their belts, they sent their kids to the dump to salvage tin for the war effort. Modern people don't do that. We're greedy.
If you want to point to what started the avalanche at wall street. It was sub prime mortgages. People wanted to buy homes. But they had no money, no real way to pay for them. So the banks gave them zero-down, 40 year mortgages at variable rates. Any economist should have been able to open the books and say... Wait a minute. What does it matter if we give them a house if they just lose it. But more importantly. Just because you want to buy a home, doesn't mean you can afford it. And maybe a little personal responsibility should come into play here, because no one held a gun to your head and forced you to sign.
Some people might call that callous. It is. A little. Some people might say "But Gear, we didn't have all the information" to which I answer: What makes your ignorant ass think it's acceptable to make massive monetary decisions uninformed?!?!?!! You signed a contract that costs half a million dollars at maturity and you don't understand it? Who the hell's fault is that?
I dunno. Corporations are heartless. but people are stupid.
Just for the record, I would like to say that I am not a single penny in debt. I refuse to buy new items for myself (well, aside from food and undies) unless there is no other alternative. My house is furnished 100% by items that where pre owned. I keep it classy, and nice.. just not new.. that's all.
We have been greedy. Or in the very least living beyond our means in the mortgage bubble. As I knew hard working people that simply could not afford to pay there mortgages after they lost their jobs. These are som of the people affected by that initial wave.
I don't think you are being that hard on people. I really hope some of the people here in the US learn a valuable lesson.
One issue is that we had been mislead to believe in the idea that a mortgage was the ticket to wealth. I remember when my parents bought the house I grew up in here in central Florida. It was about 83,000 in 1990 for a 4 bedroom house. When the house was reappraised in 2007 it was valued at 230,000...
The funny thing was, nobody even came inside the house. They simply looked around the outside, and set the value.
So, from our perspective, yes, home ownership was a goldmine. You would have to be crazy to not own a home. And if you had your name on a deed you where on your way to financial independence.
This, of course was all part of the plan. Appraise homes at insanely high markup, and get people into those high priced homes. Create artificially low interest rates, and do whatever you can to loan as much as you can.
Of course, in 1990 you could not do any of that. We bought the house at a fair market price, with a normal interest rate because it was hard not to.
Not too long after that we saw a huge push to deregulate, deregulate, deregulate. Meaning, it was all planned.
The reason I mention this is simple. Greed is one thing, but just wanting to have a shot at a middle class living is hard to pass up. Lot's of good folk saw this as an opportunity to invest wisely, and have a mortgage to fall back on.
Now, I know it's not an excuse to gloss over the fine print, and sign, sign, sign away. But my mother has worked with mortgages for the last 25 years. And during sub prime lending (At Wells Fargo) they would push to her "do whatever it takes to get the damn people in the house". Closing used to take weeks, then it took days.
Once again, no gun to the peoples heads, but some fairly unethical business practice has to happen to rush a 200,000 dollar loan in a day to anyone who applies. I remember the sales tactics, "The rate could go up eventually, but it might not". Now, that is fairly misleading. To have very real, and likely rate hikes, yet to say it may not even happen. I know that this is true, because it's what my mother would tell people. At the tiem, I think she also believed it too.
Anyway, back to greed.
I am not even sure if it is 100% greed. I think It is ignorance of the population. I get into so many arguments with people about these issues, and most of them are only repeating talking points Ala Fox news. Who by their own admittance has no lawful obligation to tell the truth (that goes for all major network news)
I think world war 2 is an excellent point of reference for this topic. I am glad you mentioned it. Because when asked to pool our resources together for the war effort, we did just that. We stood united, and electrified in our steadfast charity for the war effort.
Fast forward to our most recent "Pearl Harbor" 9/11
I remember these adds days... DAYS.. after the attacks. I was 18 at the times, so I remembered much of this quite vividly.
Our "Call to arms" was very different from the Days after Pearl Harbor. In WWII they started a draft, asked for civil service, asked for scrap, oil, and food. what did we get asked to do in service of our country?
http://truepropaganda.com/images/aofb.jpg
Shop.
Adds like this one where plastered from TV screen to TV screen. What better way to fight terrorists than shop till you drop.
It is this very attitude that starts all the way at the top that needs to put into perspective.
The issue is, we are not mad at rich people, because we are told that is we do everything we should, one day we too will become rich. If we don't... well that's your fucking fault.
So, I guess people, as you said, are stupid. From my perspective, it is not by accident that most people are indeed stupid, it is by design. I think the real issue with these protests is to make people aware that they are being taken advantage of. They need to not only make wiser choices for themselves, but need to see that they have more power united than they had thought.
Whelp... that's at least me hope.
so, good luck to all you folks up north. I hope it all works out for the best.
"The rate could go up eventually, but it might not" That's not misleading. In fact, it's almost misleading the wrong way, the interest rate could in fact, decrease. The fact that it went the wrong way wasn't an accident, but I truely doubt the people maing comments like those above really expected the rates to baloon like they did. That's the banks being stupid, because, like i said before, people are stupid, and people run banks.
Second, if what you believe the Occupy Movement to be about was actually what the occupy movement was about, I'd agree and donate money, educating people and creating awareness about economics is something people should do as an exercise in good citizenship. BUT, the people in the Occupy movements don't know what the occupy movements are about. Mainly because there's no controlling body, so each satellite group gets to set its own goals... And to date, they have been exceptionally unfocused.