Such art has important meaning in native culture as well as metaphysics... I would more gravitate toward such an item because of that

Oh, that's an answer I didn't expect! Very interesting you would think that way -- I expected that since this is such an animal oriented fandom, people would be sensitive or offended at the use of it for profit.

my native culture doesn't give it any important meaning, and chances are, your native culture doesn't either, so who's native culture are we speaking of? Are you borrowing someone else's native culture??? As for metaphysics, generally it's the image and not the material that's important.

Well, I can see where he's coming from.

I do know that carlOS is pagan, so there you go for the metaphysics... since there are many kinds of pagans, then what bone art means to him may be completely different than myself or any other person.

As for native culture, Wiki states that the first authenticated ivory scrimshaw was inscribed by a crew member of the ship Adam near the Galapagos Islands. No one really knows who started the art or why it is named the way it is, but I've been told that in America in the 1960's, scrimshaw sort of became a small artistic movement. It is currently being kept alive by a small amount of artisans, though some people are also selling laser-engraved and otherwise "nonauthentic" scrim to tourists. Many countries with access to oceans have a whaling history, however, so it's not far fetched to say that even though scrimshaw is now called an American folk art, there can still be a Canadian whaling history. (carlOS is Canadian.)

** Adam was an English ship.

First Nations types were carving walrus ivory long before that, they just didn't have a neat name for it like 'scrimshaw'. I was offered, some years ago, a fully-carved oosick, that was roughly 130 years old. But, just being a Canadian doesn't make you a 'native', anymore than my being an USAdian makes me a Powhatan Lenape.

MY ancestors lived in buffaloskin tents; lived nomadicly on a great prairie following the herds, hunted with bow and spear, worshiped a Great Spirit, painted our bodies, and wore feathered headdresses. We're not as interesting as the various American Indians, though, because WE did it in Asia.

:| i said that no one knows where it came from. The technique could be old as time and we'd never know for sure because, as i said, the first *authenticated* scrimshaw was from an English ship in 1817, and the art is known to be over 200 years old. If we need to set a date to it, the earliest estimated is 1745. However cultures are known to develop similar techniques, technologies and folk lore even in complete isolation, so it's not unreasonable to claim that the practice of scrimshaw is much, much older than previously imagined.

I consider myself a native American since my family has been here for at least 3 generations. I was born here. My mother and father were born here. My grandparents were born here. My great-grandparents were *probably* born here. So really I am about as American as they come. I think that anyone who is born in a country and has spent the majority of their life there has the right to call themselves a native. You do not have to be in a tribal culture to call yourself a native -- that's just the name we use to remind ourselves that they were here first...or at least before us.

Yes, narwhal and other whale and bone related art (like by the inuit) is permitted by First Nations only. Non-status people will get fined or land in jail, depending on the case.

(though anyone can possess the finished product)

Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_feather_law

I like your naming better.... all our federal laws are called C-[number].... BO-RING!

Salish Haida and Sto:Lo hold it in esteem. I'm on the west coast of Canada and First Nations culture is very important here, even among many non-natives.

Eh! Many animals do kill and eat other animals, and we happen to be such animals (for the most part). I don't see using the bones of animals for art being any less ethical than using the pulped and pressed corpses of trees.

I agree with you completely. The distinction is that people can sympathize with animals, but not so much with plants. After all, plants don't scream (in a frequency we can hear) when we cut them down. Plants are also alive all the way to the supermarket, and when you boil those fresh beans, they're still alive.

I'll concede the occasional case of omnivore's guilt, but when you step back and think about it, we're probably more ethical with our hunting techniques, if not our farming techniques, than most carnivores. Our guns and our arrows tend to kill fairly quickly when used properly, and I'm told that gunshots don't really hurt as much as you'd think, at least not right away.

Don't forget that a lot of native cultures stress the use of all parts of the animal when possible.

Yes, this is also true! And very utilitarian. What better way to get the most out of your prey than to make clothing and tools out of the parts you can't eat?

I don't support the sale and use of ivory due to great elephant massacres but bone and antler I think look amazing when engraved.
I especially like antler because of the color tone, the fact an animal sheds it so you can acquire the material without harming it is also fantastic.

Ivory's the tricky part. There are very specific laws and regulations in place and it's just a lot of grey area I don't want to deal with. Ivory can be obtained if it's fossilized or otherwise harvested before the elephant and whale hunting bans passed (whales around 1975, elephants around 1985). There is no restriction on things like mammoth tusk afaik.

Yea, the gray area would be something that I'd never want to contend with.

I'd love to see you do some work on antler.

Oh definitely. Antler slices are cheap -- at one source, they're like 30-50 cents each depending on size. It's nearly ideal for practice work, and it would make for reasonably priced jewelry. (Ivory jewelry is expensive because of the scarcity)

I also considered tagua nut but they tend to go for a little more.

I have seen scrimshaw done using cow bones, which I imagine would case less controversy than other materials.

Personally, as long as its legally aquired (and has tags where appropriate) I have no problems with it...except from the crafter point of veiw, bone dust STINKS (particularly if a Dremel is involved).

Traditionally scrimshaw is done by simply scratching the surface of the material, so it's not that unpleasant to work with. :3 A dremel wouldn't be needed and in fact would reduce the value of the art if an appraiser were to look at it. (many people don't consider laser engraved or dremeled scrimshaw "real")

Interesting, I suppose only heavy duty scratching would create any amount of dust. I work with bone but I am often using hand files and a Dremel where there is substantial dust and the smell it carries gets into everything. I would advise not using any sort of oil for polishing or darkening without making really sure there isn't any dust, oil picks up the smell (which left me smelling like I had just crawled out of the morgue for about a month after finishing one project)

I would imagine most people wouldn't think much of laser engraved or Dremeled scrimshaw "real". It does seem a bit like cheating, particularly since scrimshaw was an art form perfected by sailors with a bit too much time to kill on the way back from whaling (at least if my memory is worth anything).

Huh, that is a good tip. I will keep that in mind. I had planned on finishing/protecting with scotch gard, polyurethane, or a similar finish. Oil hadn't occurred to me but I think I will definitely avoid it now. Though I have heard from some sources that occasional application of mineral or baby oil can prevent bone from cracking?

Most people do not know the difference between laser and hand-crafted scrim. An expert can tell really easily, but some people will try to pawn it off as the real thing. It's really despicable.... but it really depends on what your definition of scrim is. Some people claim only certain tools and techniques make real scrim, others claim it's all in the themes and art style...

And your memory has served you right -- that is indeed how scrimshaw got started. :D

I am familiar with the application of mineral oil (baby oil is mostly mineral oil) to keep bone from cracking, just make sure its clean first to avoid bad smells (that and don't use natural oils, I used linseed and it picks up smells like the devil). Once its sealed, there shouldn't be a problem with stray dust. You might also want to try some rubbing the finished piece with something dark to make the carving stand out before sealing it (I always had good luck with water-soluable oil paints). There is something is tickling my memory about sealants and bone drying out but I am not sure what it is.

Not surprised, some people will lie to make a buck and it makes things harder for the rest of us. And any hand crafted item seems to butt up against the imports from China and Pakistan. Personally I don't think what tools one uses should matter as to whether or not its considered scrimshaw (I always seem to be using tools for tasks they were never intended, like wood carving knives to work leather) but I suppose that any definition of an art form is highly subjective.

Nice to know my mental-filing-cabinet-oh-useless-trivia is still useful.

I wouldn't and I find bone art pretty cool. (I'm also a pagan at least of sorts, though a rather eclectic, irreverent and snarky one...) I know I as a consumer would REALLY appreciate a blurb about where my artified bone came from and how it was obtained. Seeing as it CAN be unethically gotten and is therefore touchy even though most of it's perfectly legit. (Antler ftw, also, though I'd tend to be less concerned about that stuff's origins vs. ivory or bone. :P )

It'd be cool to see you get into scrimshaw! :D It seems to be a dwindling art in a lot of ways.

*nod* I had planned to say something of the kind. Stuff like this usually comes with a certificate of authenticity afaik so with each piece I'd probably put in a little card that states the animal of origin and how "this material was obtained legally/humanely to the best of my knowledge" or something of the sort. Not only does it look professional to include that sort of thing, it possibly covers some legal ground.

Well its scarcity can be proven by how many people I've had to explain the process and history to e.e (Pretty much everyone I talk to regularly, and then some)

Cool :D Much what I was thinking, too. I think those cards will make the product more desirable/valuable, too, especially since more and more people seem to be becoming concerned about what they buy and where it comes from in the mainstream.

I'm surprised more people don't know what scrimshaw is at all, though... Though maybe I'm biased, being a little artier than most and having seen it in museums? I dunno. Just a little odd. *scratches head*