I figure I'll go ahead and throw my two cents in, since I was there for the initial protest, and have gone back a couple of times since.

First off, I'll say I appreciate the note you sent me, telling me that you didn't lump me in the category of protesters that you mentioned, though, to be honest, the majority of people there were like me in the ways you mentioned in your note. I was not unique. :3

Secondly, for every individual there using it as an excuse to be a martyr, or to be a dick, or to shit on a police car, or the homeless people using this as an excuse to get free food, there are four or five who are actually there for the same reasons I was. However, the media spin and the fact that most people are only focusing on the negative aspects of this has done a number to discredit popular opinion (which is what the media is there to do). for example, I talked to dozens of people who were very intelligent, and had many, many legitimate reasons for participating, most of whom were your average, middle aged "normal" Americans with families, disabilities, and legitimate reasons for being there. I also talked to plenty of nutjobs who probably had no business being there as well, ha ha.

For example, the last time I went up there, a couple of weeks ago, absolutely nothing got accomplished during their general assembly (though I hope that's changed now), it was a bunch of bickering back and forth between people trying to have a positive, responsible impact, and the stereotypical hyper-liberal pseudo-revolutionaries trying to be "kings and queens" of the movement, and hamstringing any real progress that was to be made. In my case, I'm taking the lessons I learned from it, and am trying to apply them to the real world, by starting a business with my friend that will have high ethical standards, in addition to (eventually) attempting to begin developing "free-energy" technology that my friend has schematics for. Like Buckminster Fuller said, political and violent revolutions will not change the world, but a design/technological revolution will. The ultimate issue being addressed at these is that of poverty, not necessarily self-induced poverty from people being lazy and merely wanting a handout, but poverty forced upon the hard working individuals of this world by the so-called 1%. If technology, and a good solid set of ethics can be used to eliminate poverty, then many of the worlds problems will vanish. That's what people should be focusing on, not merely slumming it out in city centers around the world.

However, again, the majority of people there for the initial (and subsequent) protests were very surprisingly on top of their shit, and it's a shame that now everyone who opposes this whole thing (and who actually have not gone to them and seen them for themselves) are lumping in all of the people legitimately trying to change the world for the better in with those who are not. At any protest, there will always be extremists, and there will always be people who are hopelessly naive and stupid. But they usually aren't the majority. But the problem is that all of us wind up getting lumped in that category by the non-involved and equally uninformed parties out there in opposition. Not saying you're doing that with me, since you aren't, but this is something I'm seeing everywhere now from others.

But I'll tell you this. When the people in the videos I posted were yelling "I love you" to the cops, I was yelling about our constitutional rights to peaceful protest, telling them to be American citizens, not gestapo, and it worked, as the phoenix PD handled the situation infinitely better than, say, the ones in Denver and Oakland. I stuck around as long as I could before everyone got arrested, and told a lot of people prior to that that getting arrested and occupying a jail cell will do absolutely nothing for the movement. However, violent activity towards the police and government agencies is exactly what the establishment wants, so they can bring the hammer down on the people, which is why people were being peaceful. And in all honestly, at least we all got out there at did try to fight for our rights, unlike the vast majority of people who instead wanted to sit around complaining about the government and corporate related issues, all the while berating the people who actually did stand up and did what the complainers didn't. Not exactly lumping you in that category either, since I know you, but this is in reference to the vast majority of people harboring sentiments against this movement, and who haven't actually gone out and done anything to try and fix society's problems themselves. There are always hypocrites on both sides.

Ultimately, the overly idealistic and unrealistic people involved are going to get a dose of cold hard reality soon, for better or worse, as are the vehement critics of the movement who are not basing their judgments on the reality of the situation, that being, essentially, "Shit's fucked up, and now we need to do something about it". But this isn't something that's going to go away, However, if it is to survive, it needs to evolve past the point of merely "occupying", and get to the point of "doing", which, again, plenty of us are trying to do. In my case, I'm taking the lessons learned and trying to figure out a way to apply them to the real world. This movement is still in it's infancy, and has not quite "crystallized" yet. But it's (hopefully) on it's way. If this thing can survive the winter, learn from it's prior mistakes, and center around the initial goal (which does exist, even though the media says that we have no clearly defined goals), which is simply, "What can be done to ensure that the greedy sociopathic predators in power on Wall Street, big business, and in the government, don't screw over and impoverish the rest of us hard working people". It may sound like a generalization, but when you're fighting against a multitude of serious issues, you have to make blanket statements sometimes.

And, in respectful disagreement with what you said, plenty of people are actually fighting for it at these things. And if you had talked to the people there that I have, and heard the stories that I have from the people and families there who have gotten unfairly screwed over by the banks, or at their jobs, or by their schools, or the government, then maybe you'd rethink your statements, Because, to be quite honest, most of them are not applicable to the vast majority of people I've met there, though, there were always that minority that do fit the bill of what you said. But plenty of people are taking tear gas, rubber bullets, police batons, and getting run over by police motorcycles for our rights. It's just hard to see that when you're watching from miles away. :)

But, in conclusion, and this probably sounds fairly watered-down and generic, instead of this being the "99%" vs. the "1%", I'd like to see it be the "100%". because not all wealthy people are greedy and evil, and not all poor people are lazy and looking for a free ride. And if everyone starts working together, instead of against each other, and pulls their own weight and gives a little back, then we all might actually begin having a good world to live in for a change. That should be the ultimate goal of all of this, not class warfare. :3

Well, I meant private videos by normal people. There are tons of interviews and such. 90% of them are people spouting banter. Protesting is pointless if there is not a unified goal with a logical and reasonable solution to the problems they are protesting. None of those people have that. It's clear by how they go about sharing their view point and belief. In honesty, the fight should be taken to the ones that actually matter. Occupy Wallstreet was a joke. These guys sat in their fat cat chairs and laughed at these people. That solves nothing and makes us look lower. I mean really fight. Revolution to the core meaning. The principle that talk is cheap and action is louder.

There is a time for words and a time for action. The time for words has passed. Its time people REALLY wake up and see what this society has become. Not ranting about healthcare, taxes, guns, etc.. But rather, the fact that these people who hold this power and sway over us are criminals who lie, steal, and cheat. I don't care how much money the thief took, its the idea that he took it. I suppose a small part of my issue here is that I am both: Impatient, and Aggressively Forthright. I don't protest. If I did, someone would end up getting killed. So I avoid this at all costs. I have lost my freedoms and rights. I won't allow anyone to take away my ability to live as well.

I have seen the best and worst this culture and society has to offer. And in all honesty, its nothing more than a pile of shit. We revere criminals, and damn those who truly deserve our praise.

Now I am gonna quote something you said real quick:

"Ultimately, the overly idealistic and unrealistic people involved are going to get a dose of cold hard reality soon, for better or worse, as are the vehement critics of the movement who are not basing their judgments on the reality of the situation, that being, essentially, "Shit's fucked up, and now we need to do something about it". But this isn't something that's going to go away, However, if it is to survive, it needs to evolve past the point of merely "occupying", and get to the point of "doing", which, again, plenty of us are trying to do. In my case, I'm taking the lessons learned and trying to figure out a way to apply them to the real world. This movement is still in it's infancy, and has not quite "crystallized" yet. But it's (hopefully) on it's way. If this thing can survive the winter, learn from it's prior mistakes, and center around the initial goal (which does exist, even though the media says that we have no clearly defined goals), which is simply, "What can be done to ensure that the greedy sociopathic predators in power on Wall Street, big business, and in the government, don't screw over and impoverish the rest of us hard working people". It may sound like a generalization, but when you're fighting against a multitude of serious issues, you have to make blanket statements sometimes."

This I agree with. But the percentage of you who truly understand and know what it is your fighting for is much lower than you think. Do a little research on the subject of something simple like: Political Awareness. Your findings will shock you I am sure. You and I are a rare breed of person who wants to know, and takes initiative to know. BUT! We also understand that knowing is only half the battle. How we use that knowledge is what counts. Most people stop at knowing, and just go straight to bitching. It's easier this way, but has little true impact.

Several questions:

1. How many people have you actually met, in person, and talked to, who have been actively involved in the protest movement? If you haven't met more than a couple, if any, then how can you make these judgments that they are ALL wrong, and that people "like you and me" are in the minority, by sitting at home watching videos, without actually going to one of these events yourself and making as objective an observation as possible, by actually talking to people, like I, and quite a few others have? I don't particularly care for the Tea Party, but I did go to the first of their protests to see, from the source, what they were about, so that I could form an objective opinion. To be honest, despite the fact that one side wore tri-corner hats, and the side that we're arguing about is sporting long hair, the underlying messages were nearly identical.

2. How, exactly, do you propose taking action, aside from saying "if I went to a protest, then people would get killed", which isn't going to accomplish anything except you ruining your life, while completely taking another's? In addition, what did Jared Lee Loughner accomplish by shooting Gabrielle Giffords in the face?

3. What does complaining about the "complainers" on a furry art board accomplish, aside from more complaining? :)

Here's the thing. there is that part of me that agrees with you that a true revolution is (somewhat) necessary, however a truly violent revolution will immediately get co-opted by the powers-that-be, and used as an excuse to put some form of martial law into place. Look at the Russian Revolution of 1917, or The People's revolution in China. Humans have been doing that form of revolution since civilization began, and believe me, the have plenty of experience turning something like that into something far worse. Look at Egypt. After their revolution, the Muslim brotherhood has now come in, and will most likely install a totalitarian state with strict sharia law, which is the antithesis of "freedom".

In addition, I come from a family that was politically active in DC long before you met me, and I really don't need a lecture on being "Politically aware", When your mom spoke on the floor of the US House and Senate to get the Americans with disabilities Act passed through congress, as well as her being the Postmaster for the US senate at the time (by running the same post office that got anthraxed after 9-11, though she got out a few years before that), when you have personally been to Bill Clinton's inauguration in 1992, witnessed 9-11 in person, have met multiple US senators (including bob Dole, who was a friend of my family), in addition to my mom having been involved in a lawsuit involving Trent Lott and the republican party, my father being high up in the Equal Employment Opportunity commission, and having co-wrote the disability regulations for the US navy, among many other things, then someone telling you to be "politically aware" is a huge joke. No offense, but you're totally talking to the wrong person about that.... :D

But all of that aside, it's a complicated issue, as more and more people on both the pro- and anti- "Occupy" sides are realizing, and is certainly not one that is about to be solved anytime soon. But at least people are trying to solve it now, which is a lot better than people being complacent like they have been for the last several decades. In my opinion, if you are absolutely serious about fixing things on this planet, then the best thing you can do is take a deep breath, step back, and try to be as objective and rational as possible, while taking the positive out of both sides of the arguments, and the world in general, and leaving the negative to rot, as it deserves to. There are plenty of good things and people in this world, if you take the time to go out and find them. Because what you and I are doing on here, arguing about this to a possibly non-existent audience, isn't going to do anything except cause us to spin our wheels, create more unnecessary issues, and just get people (namely you and me) angry, which is not what I'm trying to do here, and is not going to solve a damn thing. ;3 If you want to continue to argue about this, I'll be more than happy to do it in person, not over the internet. You say that we're a rare breed of people, but more and more people are getting to that point as well, and they should be thrown by the wayside by us in order to make ourselves appear more intelligent.

"Should NOT be thrown by the wayside" is what i actually meant to type at the end there. ;p

Well, pretty everyone but a select few who I have tried to discuss these matters with have all turned out to be idiots playing at something bigger. Believe me, I'm not Pro, or Con to anything. But like I said, everyone I have spoken to with exception to a select few all turn out to have absolutely no idea what they are fighting for. Most just want something to fight about IMHO. Lots and lots of people takes sides. I do not. I do however stand up for what I believe so long as it does not hurt anyone else. You are a very intelligent person and I respect your opinions 100% and you attitude towards change, but as far as I have seen and heard, not many others are as good a person in this respect. Most aren't like this by choice, they have simply lost the will to fight through years of social abuse brought on by those very people who are supposed to protect them.

I could go on and on but I won't. Not here. This is a conversation better left for more personal standings. It's not often I get to see you anymore, so most of my intellectual involvement has somewhat stopped. It's rather sad really. To sit and talk about this with you would be nice if your interested.

It's cool, man. I'll be honest, as I said, there were quite a few people I've talked to at these things that were dumber than a rock, racists, communists or socialists, which I certainly don't agree with. Again, though, they weren't the majority. But again, every major protest movement is going to have those elements, and there is actually a lot of work being done by "Occupy" organizers to distance those elements from the movement as a whole.

And I'll tell you from my last experience at Occupy Phoenix, the organizers are starting to get really frustrated with those people screwing up this movement too.

And they should be. There is no excuse for ignorance and stupidity. Both are things that can easily be rectified by: READING A BOOK! If an animal gets his leg caught in a trap, he will chew it off to escape. These ignorant/stupid people are basically a trapped leg.

To a degree, yes. However, quite a few people involved are attempting to educate the other folks, with the free libraries they have had set up, and things of that nature. For example, at Occupy London, they have a section called "Tent City University", where influential people who actually feel like doing some good, in politics and economics, come in to educate the protesters on how to actually get things done. It is happening, you just don't hear about it that much, unfortunately. Especially from people now, who have not been involved since the beginning. But ignorance is the first step in the learning process, you have to take that into consideration too.

Well, I guess I did make it sound kinda of bad with the "trapped leg" comment. But I agree with educating people. I should have said: Ignorance is the trapped leg. Education being the method of chewing it off.

Think about what happens when you ask the government for financial assistance. Where do those funds come from? They are funneled from other areas. (i.e. Robinhood method).

except robin hood steals from the rich, not the poor :P

Definately so "bandwagon" effect goin on...

But thats the problem. If everyone just jumps in without any prior knowledge of whats going on, it hurts more than helps. And in this day and age, "Jumping on the Bandwagon" is the Pop-Thing to do. >.> I just got tired of hearing people talk about shit they nothing of. Im not an expert, but I don't flaunt something I don't have either.

If you want to see what's actually going on in Wall St., watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cohBX_HMoz8

The things shown in this video are also happening at every major Occupy protest around the world, including here in Phoenix. Free books, medical care, food, sanitation, and professional advice from people in the fields of politics and economics. Just though I'd throw that out there while I have the time today. :)