Looks like there's an end to the current DnD Edition feud
14 years ago
General
Penny Arcade broke the news in their usual subtle manner: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/01/11
It appears that Wizards itself has now taken a side in the ongoing 3.5 vs. 4E conflict. And judging by the fact 4e has been out for barely three years and they're already openly working on its successor says that they've admitted their errors. I'm no tabletop historian, but I'm pretty sure that, at the same point in 3rd edition's lifespan, they were in the process of overhauling it rather than planning the next incarnation. Third edition and 3.5 had a good, what, six years before 4e was announced?
Okay, difficult subject matter incoming. 4e isn't bad. It would be a fine introductory gaming system if it existed in a vacuum. One major problem was that it had 3rd/3.5, the d20 system, and every permutation thereof spawned by the Open Gaming License looming overhead.
Its biggest hurdle, however, was that 4e just wasn't very evocative. Oh sure, the artwork of the sourcebooks is the best it's ever been, what with fantasy and sci-fi's stranglehold on popular culture and attracting some amazingly talented artists. No, the problem was that the system's function dictates the flavor, rather than flavor giving rise to the function.
Yeah, that sounded pretentious. Here's an example of what I mean. I'm going to compare the same ability from the same creature, as depicted by 3.5 and 4e. The subject beast is Lord Dagon, Demon Prince of the Depths. The ability: Form of Madness. I'll paraphrase so I'm not madly tossing numbers around.
Dagon's 4e Form of Madness: Affected enemies (aka player characters) within 10 squares take Psychic damage, get slid 5 squares, and are dazed.
Dagon's 3.5 Form of Madness: Any creature within 120 feet of Dagon that observes him must succeed on a Will save or develop an overwhelming fear of the ocean and its depths. Affected creatures take a distraction penalty in combat with aquatic creatures or when the ocean in within eyesight. Fighting an aquatic creature may paralyze an afflicted creature with terror.
You see, the idea behind Form of Madness is that Dagon, as an incredibly ancient demon from the long eons before mortal life arose, possesses a body so incomprehensible to mortal minds that it rends their sanity. He's a Great Old One from Lovecraft's works.
I'll give another example, one closer to this fandom's hearts. Werewolves, and other lycanthropes, can't pass along the curse through their bite. That's right, 4e werewolves can't make new werewolves. The best they can do is pass along some type of rabies.
The Escapist had an intriguing trio of articles at the end of last year concerning the state of DnD. One thing that stuck out was how the author explained that 2nd edition was all about the DM, the players just went along with his story and rolled dice on occasion. 4e was considered to have given too much power the players, where the DM is just there to set up the pieces.
4e is a board game. So much is already predetermined before you even roll your first d20. Role and class are hard to separate. Every class entry explains what it should be used for; fighters and paladins are meant to be tanks, rangers and rogues are DPS, clerics are healers, and wizards are aoe and cc. There's a reason it's called Fourcraft.
While the same could be said for 3.5, at least there was some leeway. Heck, in our Pathfinder group tanking was performed by the rogue/magus and the druid's ape companion more than our cavalier. The 3.5 system just allows for more flexibility.
And flexibility is lacking in 4e. Players must select a paragon path at 11th level (either a specific set of powers or multiclass with another class), and an epic destiny at 21st levels. And once you reach 30th level, that's it. You're out of the game. No endless adventures or story ending where you want it to. The Spoony One has a great account of how his namesake bard rode off in to the astral sunset at 18th level: http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/11.....ems-last-ride/
Though much as I laud 3.5, my heart now belongs to Pathfinder, aka DnD 3.75. It took all the best things from 3.5 and removed many of the problems. In particular I am loving my arcane bloodline sage wild-blood variant sorcerer. The big drawback or sorcerers in 3.5 was their extremely limited spell access. Pathfinder, bursting with variant rules as it is, grants extra spells to sorcerers based on the eldritch ancestry that grants their innate magical ability. Arcane sorcerers get extra, and human sorcerers get to expand their pool further.
The key to a good system isn't so much power as it is variety.
That being said, I've grown quite attached to my current character, Vinden Willowbank. He's a sorcerer claiming to be a wizard (yes there's a difference, don't feel like explaining it now). I may have to make him character in a story now. Helps that he's a hulking bear of a man (love those beefy physical stats I rolled) with magic singing in his veins. And how can I say no to placing him in situations where temporary/sexy transformations ensue.
Wait, I had a point in here somewhere. Oh right, the upcoming 5th edition of DnD. If Wizards is smart they'll remember to allow flexibility, like Pathfinder. They might as well just buy out Pathfinder and rename that 5th edition.
And now I've nerded out for far too long. I need to go... punt a baseball or whatever it is other people do in situations that don't require the rolling of dice.
It appears that Wizards itself has now taken a side in the ongoing 3.5 vs. 4E conflict. And judging by the fact 4e has been out for barely three years and they're already openly working on its successor says that they've admitted their errors. I'm no tabletop historian, but I'm pretty sure that, at the same point in 3rd edition's lifespan, they were in the process of overhauling it rather than planning the next incarnation. Third edition and 3.5 had a good, what, six years before 4e was announced?
Okay, difficult subject matter incoming. 4e isn't bad. It would be a fine introductory gaming system if it existed in a vacuum. One major problem was that it had 3rd/3.5, the d20 system, and every permutation thereof spawned by the Open Gaming License looming overhead.
Its biggest hurdle, however, was that 4e just wasn't very evocative. Oh sure, the artwork of the sourcebooks is the best it's ever been, what with fantasy and sci-fi's stranglehold on popular culture and attracting some amazingly talented artists. No, the problem was that the system's function dictates the flavor, rather than flavor giving rise to the function.
Yeah, that sounded pretentious. Here's an example of what I mean. I'm going to compare the same ability from the same creature, as depicted by 3.5 and 4e. The subject beast is Lord Dagon, Demon Prince of the Depths. The ability: Form of Madness. I'll paraphrase so I'm not madly tossing numbers around.
Dagon's 4e Form of Madness: Affected enemies (aka player characters) within 10 squares take Psychic damage, get slid 5 squares, and are dazed.
Dagon's 3.5 Form of Madness: Any creature within 120 feet of Dagon that observes him must succeed on a Will save or develop an overwhelming fear of the ocean and its depths. Affected creatures take a distraction penalty in combat with aquatic creatures or when the ocean in within eyesight. Fighting an aquatic creature may paralyze an afflicted creature with terror.
You see, the idea behind Form of Madness is that Dagon, as an incredibly ancient demon from the long eons before mortal life arose, possesses a body so incomprehensible to mortal minds that it rends their sanity. He's a Great Old One from Lovecraft's works.
I'll give another example, one closer to this fandom's hearts. Werewolves, and other lycanthropes, can't pass along the curse through their bite. That's right, 4e werewolves can't make new werewolves. The best they can do is pass along some type of rabies.
The Escapist had an intriguing trio of articles at the end of last year concerning the state of DnD. One thing that stuck out was how the author explained that 2nd edition was all about the DM, the players just went along with his story and rolled dice on occasion. 4e was considered to have given too much power the players, where the DM is just there to set up the pieces.
4e is a board game. So much is already predetermined before you even roll your first d20. Role and class are hard to separate. Every class entry explains what it should be used for; fighters and paladins are meant to be tanks, rangers and rogues are DPS, clerics are healers, and wizards are aoe and cc. There's a reason it's called Fourcraft.
While the same could be said for 3.5, at least there was some leeway. Heck, in our Pathfinder group tanking was performed by the rogue/magus and the druid's ape companion more than our cavalier. The 3.5 system just allows for more flexibility.
And flexibility is lacking in 4e. Players must select a paragon path at 11th level (either a specific set of powers or multiclass with another class), and an epic destiny at 21st levels. And once you reach 30th level, that's it. You're out of the game. No endless adventures or story ending where you want it to. The Spoony One has a great account of how his namesake bard rode off in to the astral sunset at 18th level: http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/11.....ems-last-ride/
Though much as I laud 3.5, my heart now belongs to Pathfinder, aka DnD 3.75. It took all the best things from 3.5 and removed many of the problems. In particular I am loving my arcane bloodline sage wild-blood variant sorcerer. The big drawback or sorcerers in 3.5 was their extremely limited spell access. Pathfinder, bursting with variant rules as it is, grants extra spells to sorcerers based on the eldritch ancestry that grants their innate magical ability. Arcane sorcerers get extra, and human sorcerers get to expand their pool further.
The key to a good system isn't so much power as it is variety.
That being said, I've grown quite attached to my current character, Vinden Willowbank. He's a sorcerer claiming to be a wizard (yes there's a difference, don't feel like explaining it now). I may have to make him character in a story now. Helps that he's a hulking bear of a man (love those beefy physical stats I rolled) with magic singing in his veins. And how can I say no to placing him in situations where temporary/sexy transformations ensue.
Wait, I had a point in here somewhere. Oh right, the upcoming 5th edition of DnD. If Wizards is smart they'll remember to allow flexibility, like Pathfinder. They might as well just buy out Pathfinder and rename that 5th edition.
And now I've nerded out for far too long. I need to go... punt a baseball or whatever it is other people do in situations that don't require the rolling of dice.
FA+

Book 1: http://www.mediafire.com/?7a818758q47pruw
Book 2 : http://www.mediafire.com/?jj1dn48xno2rolk
Personally I think both sets of games are good in their own rights, just flawed in different ways. Pathfinder is this large sourcebook mess of different abilities and math keeping which seems daunting to newer players, and fourth edition becomes radically easy or too difficult if your GM can't find a proper way to balance the enemies.
I don't think a mixing of the two would be a bad idea, and given the story elements from 3rd and the rich combat in 4th I think wizard is more than capable of this.
Yes, big Pathfinder fan ... or couldn't you tell from the Golarion fan fic?
Cheers,
OT