This reminds me of American Dad. they had a scene where the teacher was talking about tenure. To add to his point of being protected from losing his job, he kicks a student twice. It may be only a show, but it does show how far a teacher can go when they are union protected.

Here's an example we just recently went through...

An employee was a no-call-no-show. After two days of this, we have to send them a letter by next-day air that states if they do not respond in two days, we will consider it voluntary termination.

So yes, it takes five days of completely not showing up to get someone fired from my job. Two days not showing up, one day for the letter, two days after that. Don't even have to mention the way to get a non-performing employee to, you know, do their job.

my old job was like that ,execpt they don't need to send a letter. Still that sucks, cause with that system they can work for a day or two then repeat the behavior.

Well, in reality there is the true side to tenure and the fictionalized/poorly implemented version. As far as reality is concerned (or should be concerned, quite frankly), tenure is nothing more than the reassurance that administrators cannot fire you for no reason whatsoever. It's why those first three years in teaching in a position (pre-tenure) are so nerve wracking, since no one is obligated to tell you why you are not coming back to work after a break or after the year is over. Can you still be fired over something egregious? Oh, ~yes~. And if they can't do it outright, it is not hard to make someone's teaching career an absolute living hell to the point where they quit.

But the public view of tenure, the one that persists in most peoples' minds? One can get away with anything under the sun with no repercussions. Sadly, in some areas this winds up being true, and it disgusts me to no end as well. Depending on the school district the "get away with anything" version of tenure does not exist in any way, shape, or form, but others...well, those are the sorts of schools (both public and private) who deserve drastic reform like mad.

Heh, sorry. Wound up being a bit too wordy there.

Round californai they get the tenure after two years. to make it worse the state governer had basically told schools, in bill form, that even in budget shortfalls you cannot layoff teachers. One school lost every bus driver and nearly half of all other non-teacher non-union positions - mechanics, lunch personnel, ground keepers.

California has so many problems in that regard that it's eventually going to hit, if not come close enough to, catastrophic educational failure. I understand their reasoning, since in some cases they can trim the non-educational roles around the district in order to save money, but I know around here the real fat to trim off of the budget is in axing unnecessary administrators. The only problem is that the lack of bus drivers is going to screw up districting, and the other loss of personnel is going to raise budget costs for maintaining the building, which is quickly going to get worse rather than better. Which will then lead to more layoffs (even teacher layoffs) next year when it all goes to hell!

Oh lord...sometimes it's all just a giant mess rather than anything else.

It's really bad, to make it worse, the teachers union keep asking (demanding) more money. When a teacher makes two to three times as much money as anyone else and demands for more money. . . it shows they don't care for their job, only the money. Some do love the children, but it's becoming harder to find those teachers.

That's the problem, at times. Some of the unions are looking out for the best interests of everyone, at least because locally if there were no teachers unions you wouldn't make any more than if you were working retail full-time. That doesn't necessarily sound like a problem save for the fact that it's well under self-sustainability with the cost of living around here now, as well as the fact that you need degrees and certifications to teach. But some people want it to go back to that old method because it was "better"...yet they forget that the only way to ~get~ teachers in those days were to hire people who had no formal education in, well, actual education. And if you think classes were bad before, oooof.

Sad to say, there are plenty of people out there who teach because of what they can offer others, and for them it is nothing but enjoyment. But, sadly, most of teaching, no matter where you are, is really 50% based on actual education and the other 50% is based on sheer politics. Bad decisions from above are followed through because it makes them "save face", but hurts everyone else and students. Textbooks are bought en masse because of a backdoor sweetheart deal even though they are some of the worst ones on the market. Teacher unions keep letting the notion of "we have summers off!!" pervade when the ~good~ teachers are taking additional courses, just like ~students~, so they can get even better at what they do.

Or...really, no matter where we are in the US, education is facing a lot of stupid, broken issues. Sadly, presidential decrees and programs like "No Child Left Behind" and "Race to the Top" have worthy objectives but thir implementation is...quite poor.

Heh, sorry about that. It's good to have a thoughtful discussion about these things, I must admit!

yeah those programs are overrated junk piles. some unions do look out for everyone, but a few been corrupted to the point that they no longer care, just as long as they get their way. It's just like the teacher with a BA been working for only 6 years and drawing in 100 grand a year. there's a few floating around, they ususally have the worst of "i don't care" attitude towards the students.

hehehe I'm waiting for when the sutdents stop coming to school cause they removed every bus driver, I just can't remember if it was madera or merced, some reaons i get those two confused.

I would still prefer for teachers to lead by example and show the way instead of "you pass now go away". the later need to be removed. I like the idea of teachers being active and striving to become better. Cause we never stop learning.

Yeah it's nice to have a discussion where we both can keep an open mind.

That's one of quite a few problems, sadly. Either they're outright corrupt, or the lack of coordination/lack of unions for other members in the same workforce leads to people getting quite screwed over, which just snowballs later on. Around here many of the other staffers in the schools are unionized as well, so to go against one union harshly is to insult all of them. Usually that means when it comes time for collective bargaining everyone sits down at the table, takes their time, and everyone is unhappy with the end result. But, the key there is that everyone may be unhappy, but the budget was made, everyone takes a little hit, but the students are A-OK and very few, if any, people lost their jobs. Effective!

And yeah, unless those are walking school districts they're going to have a hell of a time, no doubt about that! Thankfully Cali doesn't have to worry about massive snowfalls hampering walks to school, but given most of those districts and their size? I doubt parents are going to be thrilled, much less able or willing, to drive their kids into school!

That's another major problem. While every school district is going to have a few teachers who do nothing more than run the grades, get to know their students, but mostly get all of their material and lesson plans online and barely stitch a curriculum together, there are plenty of people who work like mad to make sure things work. It's the very same reason we're having trouble over here at the moment with proposed legislation in grading teachers, mostly because the instruments they made up in order to grade them? Well, politicians and "people in the business" (read: textbook makers) don't understand that the very devices they made actually protect the fake teachers and punish the ones who work hard, if not fire them! Unintended effect, indeed!

I'm glad we can both view this from as many sides as possible. There's no doubt there are so many things that can and should be fixed, but we'll only realize it if we look objectively at every little bit of the puzzle!