Merry Christmas to you too!

I agree with you on this 100%. There's a problem where a lot of people take their religions too seriously, and then the people who don't go on the war-path with their beliefs seem to pay the price for the actions of others. Quite a few athiests leave religion due to losing faith in what it teaches, seeing hypocrisy in the actions of those around them, and wanting to get away from what they see as a belief system that seems to result only in fighting with other fellow human beings (of course, this doesn't apply to every athiest, there are quite a few I know who feel this way, though.)

The problem is, some become activists, and in doing so, it only leads to them trying to disprove something that isn't based on facts or evidence, but on how much a person believes in something. No offense, but it's similar to two children arguing over the existence of the Easter Bunny. Nobody's going to get anywhere with that sort of arguing, and there's no point in fighting someone's faith, because you're only going to end up a screaming mess of irrational anger.

I think people should have the right to proudly display their personal beliefs (within reason, of course. No bible-burnings, no public indecency, etc.). I think that anyone arguing against religious icons should shut up for a moment and take a look around them. Notice that they're the only ones making a fuss over it, you don't have Buddhists or Jews or Muslims making noise over it, do you? If religion causes anywhere nearly as much trouble as they're saying it does, then it's only because of people taking offense at other people actually having different thoughts.

I think it's not so much religion that causes warfare and strife, as much as it's the fact that people are human, and it's more and more apparent, every single day, that quite a few members of humanity have severe issues with accepting that other people have opinions and beliefs. There's a whole mindset of "This is my world, you don't belong in my world", with those particular members of this species.

Except that you know, the US govt is not endorsing Easter Bunny-ism and giving it a privileged status over other religions.

"I think people should have the right to proudly display their personal beliefs"
The problems start when the US govt does so in explicit contradiction with the Constitution, using publicly-funded taxpayer money to fund the construction or maintenance of symbols of a certain particular religion. It should either endorse all religions to represent all US citizens equally, or represent none at all. No favoritism please.

"If religion causes anywhere nearly as much trouble as they're saying it does, then it's only because of people taking offense at other people actually having different thoughts."
Or because the christian religion is very present in the US military, the exclusionary and sometimes violent sentiments religions cause to arise, the progress it stops due to nonsense (no gay marriage, no stem cell research, people trying to outlaw abortion, the entire anti-evolution and anti-science problem) and people don't want that to be part of their govt or passed as laws purely because it's the dominant religion.

I'm just saying, christians aren't the victims here.

That being said, I agree that there are waaaayyyyy too many lawsuit-happy atheists down south, even though I do understand them.

I wasn't really referring to Christianity, specifically, though there is a point to be made that quite a lot of influence of the original colonies still permeates through American society to this day.

My statements, while making some implication that there were complaints specifically against Christianity, were more saying that I've heard far more complaints about religious displays from athiests, than from any one religious person I've met, online or offline (Save for the general anti-Islam slant on the part of... well, a lot of people.)

While Christianity is certainly the dominant, and longest-residing religion in this country, I think everyone should be allowed to display their religious iconography without persecution or complaint, so long as they don't use it as an excuse to push their beliefs onto others. A common problem I've noticed is people mistaking 'displaying icons' with 'attempting to recruit/brainwash', or similar. It happens extremely often around Christmas-time in the U.S., because of the driving religion behind most of the displays. But unless the nativity scene or crucifix was being used to tell people to join the church, I don't see a problem with it, just like I don't see a problem with people hanging the flags of their countries outside their houses (lives in a melting pot neighborhood).

I've got my own gripes against Christianity, rest assured, but at least in the case of public nativity displays (in the appropriate locations, such as outside a home, or church, of course), I think Christianity is a victim of a form of discrimination in that regard.

On the whole, there's quite a lot of bias in this country, almost certainly stemming from the early colonies, which were heavily made up of Puritans. Indeed, the common portrayal of what one might call a Puritan, seems to rather accurately describe those which took up residence in this country nearly four centuries ago, and to this day, a lot of the judgemental and holier-than-though-we-have-the-moral-high-ground attitude still remains in this country, as do a few lingering social taboos related to sex and gender roles, among others.

Anyhow, I've said my bit. I agree with you quite a lot with what you've said, though I do apologize if there was a bit of a 'Christianity versus Atheism' vibe to what I was saying. I meant more that people are far too easily offended when confronted with something that they don't agree with, and I feel that people shouldn't have the idea in their heads that seeing a different point of view somehow infringes on their rights, and that people shouldn't force an idea down another's throat, either.

Put in a sort of stupid metaphorical context:
There's just this line between 'showing up in a striped sweater', and 'showing up with a truckload of striped sweaters and attempting to make everyone wear one'. People shouldn't confuse that single sweater for a truckload of them, and if they dislike that sweater, then they shouldn't be attacking the one wearing it for... well, wearing it. Even if it -is- tacky in their opinion.

more saying that I've heard far more complaints about religious displays from athiests

Atheist btw :p Just nitpicking on grammar

I understand what you mean, and I agree. I think that has more to do though that religious folk are better able to tolerate the nonsensical beliefs of others, because in some way it mirrors their own. Very rarely will any religion seriously criticize the theology of another, because I think they are aware they'd end up disproving each other. All religious folk agree that faith is important, so they tolerate different versions of faith. Some atheists however want none of that faith at all, and it's also perfectly understandable, though I don't necessarily think they're doing the right thing.

I think everyone should be allowed to display their religious iconography without persecution or complaint, so long as they don't use it as an excuse to push their beliefs onto others. A common problem I've noticed is people mistaking 'displaying icons' with 'attempting to recruit/brainwash', or similar.

Everyone is allowed to display their religious iconography without persecution, that's part of the US constitution. The lawsuits cannot remove religious symbols from private property or stop individuals from professing their faith. What they do is prevent public money going towards religious iconography of a certain religion in particular.

Per the displaying icons, that would depends. Crucifixes and necklaces are displaying, billboards are not, they are purely based on recruiting. That's all fine and good, so long as it's privately funded. Crosses as monuments are sort of straddling the line. It's professing the faith of people, but it cannot be funded by the state nor on state property, because that's endorsing religion.

Canadian here BTW, so I have no idea how prevalent religious billboards nor monuments are in the US, especially the south.

Per the happening around christmas, as a foreigner, most of the 'war on christmas' news I hear come directly from Fox News, and the rest comes from other news station reporting on faux news. I don't think I need to point out how biased that particular news station is.

Also, I have no idea who the puritans were or are, the only thing I see is how it is now. I'm not terribly well-versed in american history either, so I can't comment much on the original colonies.

Anyhow, I've said my bit. I agree with you quite a lot with what you've said, though I do apologize if there was a bit of a 'Christianity versus Atheism' vibe to what I was saying. I meant more that people are far too easily offended when confronted with something that they don't agree with, and I feel that people shouldn't have the idea in their heads that seeing a different point of view somehow infringes on their rights, and that people shouldn't force an idea down another's throat, either.

Oh no, I completely understand what you mean. Being an atheist though, I still can't help but be biased, and angry at many facts, like the fact that atheists are the least trusted minority in the US, less still than rapists, because christian conservative pundits spread their bullshit left right and centre.

Also, you can comment on my post below, if you wish. Open discussion for all!

I invite any atheist to give me one good, logical, and fair reason why I should not be allowed to publicly profess my Faith.
I'll try my hand.

If not, I have a culinary recommendation for you.
Did I hear food?!?

I'll just go through your lines one by one and post my thoughts on them.

The phrase is Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.
Do you think the same of the freedom of expression? You're allowed to say what you want but you're not allowed to shut up?
The freedom of association? The freedom of press?
I'll posit you know this is a weak argument. Please don't just repeat what TV pundits say, most of them spout intelligently-sounding but completely stupid arguments.

If you don't want to see Christian symbols, then don't pay attention to them. I am not dragging you bodily into a church.
That's fine and well, so long as religious symbols stay off public property, are not publicly funded or using public funds to maintain. That doesn't appear to be the case however.

I have a right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression, these are all ensured by the First Amendment. So do you.
Absolutely! I support you 200% here! As is often mistakenly attributed to Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

However the use of ones rights to interfere with another persons is not protected.
And where specifically are atheists interfering with your right to say what you want? Who is censoring you?

Why do so many Atheists think they must FORCE their non-religion on the rest of us?
Because some religious folk are trying to force their religion on others through legislative means (think republicans like Rick Santorum and Todd Akins) and because the US govt is forcing a religion on all other people, either by publicly funding religious symbols, or by giving them tax breaks, despite the laws saying that if they were ever to endorse a political candidate, the church would lose its tax free status. Thousands of churches have purposefully disregarded this laws, and even sent videos of it to the IRS, but nothing at all has been done.

What is my faith hurting by existing?
It's not. Just keep it outside the govt.

How is being a Militant Atheist any less terrible than being a Religious Fanatic?
Because militant atheists don't drive airplanes into buildings.

The double standard here needs to STOP, and this War on Religion needs to END.
Absolutely. People keep confusing war on religion with christianity not getting whatever they want. It has to stop.

I invite any atheist to give me one good, logical, and fair reason why I should not be allowed to publicly profess my Faith.
Who is preventing you from publicly professing your faith? Are they throwing all the street preachers in jail now? Are christians being repressed and victimized? Is christianity now an outlawed religion, or do you have to pay special taxes because you're not of the right religion? Are you being persecuted for your faith?

I don't know why, there's this persecution complex thing that seems extremely common and rampant in the US. God forbid the US of A gets what, 40 presidents in a row who are christian?

Also, because I'm sure you've all heard the 'wall of separation of church and state' arguments over and over (the US govt cannot use public money given by people of all religion and none to fund one specific religion) I'll give you the following quote.

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute—where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote—where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference—and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish—where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source—where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials—and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. [...] I do not speak for my church on public matters—and the church does not speak for me. Whatever issue may come before me as President—on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject—I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise. But if the time should ever come—and I do not concede any conflict to be even remotely possible—when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office; and I hope any conscientious public servant would do the same.

John F Kennedy, addressing the Greater Houston Ministerial Association



The message is clear. No religion in the US govt, or supported by or funded by or endorsed by, the US govt. The reason these atheists keep throwing lawsuit after lawsuit is because this FOUNDING PRINCIPLE in the US CONSTITUTION is NOT RESPECTED. That is it, and that is all.

As an aside, christmas is not really a christian celebration. If it were, there would be no christmas tree (evergreen, symbol of life, comes from the norse Yuletide), no christmas lights (same with the lights, the candles were originally lit to strengthen the sun and help it through the longest night of the year during the winter solstice), no giving presents (comes from the roman Saturnalia celebration), no mistletoe (an ancient druid tradition), no christmas log (again, Yuletide), no holly or wreaths to deck the halls (a Wiccan tradition), and no reindeer hooves on your rooftop (Odin's 8-legged horse Sleipnir coming down). In fact, if you take all that's not christian out of christian celebrations, you're left with surprisingly little. It's time people stop acting as though christmas is exclusively a christian celebration and belongs only to the religious folk, and admit that it's also a secular celebration that belongs to all who celebrate it.

A nativity scene however is still only explicitly religious, and thus cannot be accepted on public property.

However, I still think the US people are overly lawsuit-happy.

That being said, I wish you a merry christmas, a happy holiday, a happy hannukah, a kwaky kwanza, and lots of gifts from Santa!