FA+
Shop
† Questions to Embarrass Christians (Part 3) †
13 years ago
General
Take no one at their word, but test everything against what you know to be true: the Bible. Be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11).
After some delay, we are on to part three. I confess, this update is not going to be very seeker-friendly. FFRF does bring up some tough subjects that are not well-received by a progressive society. Nevertheless, here's what I believe the Word teaches:
4. How should parents treat a stubborn and rebellious son?
FFRF: He should be stoned to death. --This cruelly excessive Mosaic law was actually enforced at one time by the Massachusetts colony and has been used to justify child abuse and murder. (citations: Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Leviticus 20:9)
FFRF isn't mistranslating this time; they've correctly inferred the meaning of these passages. God commanded Jewish parents to bring their rebellious children before the elders of their city for stoning. It would be easy to make the argument-by-grace, that now that Jesus has died we're no longer subject to these laws, but that doesn't change the fact that this was indeed a law. We have no indication of how often it was practiced or if the threat alone was sufficient to instill good behavior in children. Nevertheless, is it really something that should embarrass Christians? Does this law make God an unsympathetic monster?
Quite the contrary. This law is consistent with the actions of a loving, just and holy God. It seems horrifying to us because our society places heavy emphasis on the tangible and the material. In a similar respect, eating guinea pigs would seem horrifying to us because we view them as pets, but in many South American countries, they're a staple of one's diet. Do we stand on a moral high ground for not eating guinea pigs? No, it's a matter of cultural perspective. In the same way, we have to see issues such as this from God's perspective. Life is but a fleeting moment in the framework of eternity. For those who have no perspective of an afterlife, death is the ultimate punishment. To the Christian (and God) bodily death is but the transition, either into eternal life or eternal death. A rebellious Jew – someone whose actions would turn others away from following God – could lead others into eternal death. Therefore, to God, stoning the rebel was akin to removing a cancerous cell from the body before it could spread.
Remember that the ancient Jews were also humans, like us. It is no small matter for a parent to hand their child over to be killed. “Rebellious” is suggestive of being more than just occasionally disobedient; it implies hostility. To be a rebel, one must willfully and actively oppose the institution. This law does not refer to occasional, childhood indiscretions; it was meant for true miscreants. (Hence why such an accusation need also be passed before the elders.)
The citation of the Massachusetts colony is a red herring. While examples like the Salem Witch Trials, the Spanish Inquisitions, and the Crusades will always hang as a dark cloud over the heads of Christians, it should not be an indictment of the Word, but of those who have abused it.
6. What does the Bible say about witches?
FFRF: Witches should be killed. --Tragically, tens of thousands, if not millions, of innocent women in Europe and the American colonies were cruelly accused, tortured and executed because of one single bible verse. (citations: Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)
Once again, not an indictment of the text, but of the human misuse thereof. The concept of spiritual warfare can be embarrassing for “progressive” Christians, but the Holy Spirit (as author of the Word), always treats it very seriously. It is, again, a matter of perspective and removing the cancer from the body of believers before it can spread.
Now every time I comment on something like this I feel I need to express that I don't condone anyone going out and taking lives in the name of Old Testament laws. Jesus's death was the fulfillment of these laws, entering us into the “time of grace.” All the same, we should be aware of purpose of these laws and ready to give a defense of the text we hold sacred.
9. What is the origin of the "mighty men" giants known as nephilim?
FFRF: They were the offspring of God's angels and young women. --Can't God maintain better control over his libidinous troops? This is scandal in high places. (citations: Genesis 6:1-4)
This happens to be one of my favorite Bible challenges, and one that I can discuss at great verbosity for anyone who is so interested. Suffice it to say “yes,” FFRF got it right on the money with their interpretation again. There is a more seeker-friendly Sethite interpretation of this passage, but critical examination of the original text (and related texts) pokes so many holes in that argument, the ship sinks in port. (I don't expect anyone to take me at my word for it. If there's enough interest/contention, I'd be glad to present this as a special topic. If not, anyone who is interested can contact me. I'll share my resources and we can make a discussion of it there.)
To give a super-condensed rebuttal, the angels have free will, just as we do. We know these are angels because they are called the B'nai Ha Elohim (literally “Sons of God”), a term only used in reference to Heavenly hosts when expressed in this way. They do not escape punishment for their gross misconduct. They are locked in darkness, in a place called “Tartarus,” which in a rare form of ambiguity, is mentioned only once in the Bible (2 Peter 2:4). The children of this union formed the nephilim (meaning “mighty men”), of whom Goliath was one. Note that this belief is not a Biblical anomaly. References to giants can be found in the legends of almost every ancient culture dating back to this time: from the Greeks to the Egyptians, and the Hindus to the Native Americans. It is my belief that the existence of these creatures is what merited the global flood of Noah, but that's straying somewhat off topic.
If FFRF is correct in deeming this belief absurd, then it should be studied as the most magnificently well-orchestrated hoax of all time: to get ancient cultures spanning the globe to unilaterally subscribe to this “ridiculous” legend.
I hope I haven't scared anyone off with these answers, but I don't believe you can be a cafeteria Christian, picking and choosing just the fragments of Scripture that suit you. I believe it's an all-or-nothing venture. That said, never take Kalibri at his word; test my conclusions against what you know to be true: the Word of God.
As a final, unrelated note, please pray for the families who have lost loved ones to one of the recent senseless acts of violence. While the unexpected loss of life is always tragic, it's especially painful around this time of year. Please keep in prayer everyone who has been affected by these tragedies, including the families of the perpetrators, who have also had their lives irrevocably changed.
ybiC,
Kalibri
4. How should parents treat a stubborn and rebellious son?
FFRF: He should be stoned to death. --This cruelly excessive Mosaic law was actually enforced at one time by the Massachusetts colony and has been used to justify child abuse and murder. (citations: Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Leviticus 20:9)
FFRF isn't mistranslating this time; they've correctly inferred the meaning of these passages. God commanded Jewish parents to bring their rebellious children before the elders of their city for stoning. It would be easy to make the argument-by-grace, that now that Jesus has died we're no longer subject to these laws, but that doesn't change the fact that this was indeed a law. We have no indication of how often it was practiced or if the threat alone was sufficient to instill good behavior in children. Nevertheless, is it really something that should embarrass Christians? Does this law make God an unsympathetic monster?
Quite the contrary. This law is consistent with the actions of a loving, just and holy God. It seems horrifying to us because our society places heavy emphasis on the tangible and the material. In a similar respect, eating guinea pigs would seem horrifying to us because we view them as pets, but in many South American countries, they're a staple of one's diet. Do we stand on a moral high ground for not eating guinea pigs? No, it's a matter of cultural perspective. In the same way, we have to see issues such as this from God's perspective. Life is but a fleeting moment in the framework of eternity. For those who have no perspective of an afterlife, death is the ultimate punishment. To the Christian (and God) bodily death is but the transition, either into eternal life or eternal death. A rebellious Jew – someone whose actions would turn others away from following God – could lead others into eternal death. Therefore, to God, stoning the rebel was akin to removing a cancerous cell from the body before it could spread.
Remember that the ancient Jews were also humans, like us. It is no small matter for a parent to hand their child over to be killed. “Rebellious” is suggestive of being more than just occasionally disobedient; it implies hostility. To be a rebel, one must willfully and actively oppose the institution. This law does not refer to occasional, childhood indiscretions; it was meant for true miscreants. (Hence why such an accusation need also be passed before the elders.)
The citation of the Massachusetts colony is a red herring. While examples like the Salem Witch Trials, the Spanish Inquisitions, and the Crusades will always hang as a dark cloud over the heads of Christians, it should not be an indictment of the Word, but of those who have abused it.
6. What does the Bible say about witches?
FFRF: Witches should be killed. --Tragically, tens of thousands, if not millions, of innocent women in Europe and the American colonies were cruelly accused, tortured and executed because of one single bible verse. (citations: Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)
Once again, not an indictment of the text, but of the human misuse thereof. The concept of spiritual warfare can be embarrassing for “progressive” Christians, but the Holy Spirit (as author of the Word), always treats it very seriously. It is, again, a matter of perspective and removing the cancer from the body of believers before it can spread.
Now every time I comment on something like this I feel I need to express that I don't condone anyone going out and taking lives in the name of Old Testament laws. Jesus's death was the fulfillment of these laws, entering us into the “time of grace.” All the same, we should be aware of purpose of these laws and ready to give a defense of the text we hold sacred.
9. What is the origin of the "mighty men" giants known as nephilim?
FFRF: They were the offspring of God's angels and young women. --Can't God maintain better control over his libidinous troops? This is scandal in high places. (citations: Genesis 6:1-4)
This happens to be one of my favorite Bible challenges, and one that I can discuss at great verbosity for anyone who is so interested. Suffice it to say “yes,” FFRF got it right on the money with their interpretation again. There is a more seeker-friendly Sethite interpretation of this passage, but critical examination of the original text (and related texts) pokes so many holes in that argument, the ship sinks in port. (I don't expect anyone to take me at my word for it. If there's enough interest/contention, I'd be glad to present this as a special topic. If not, anyone who is interested can contact me. I'll share my resources and we can make a discussion of it there.)
To give a super-condensed rebuttal, the angels have free will, just as we do. We know these are angels because they are called the B'nai Ha Elohim (literally “Sons of God”), a term only used in reference to Heavenly hosts when expressed in this way. They do not escape punishment for their gross misconduct. They are locked in darkness, in a place called “Tartarus,” which in a rare form of ambiguity, is mentioned only once in the Bible (2 Peter 2:4). The children of this union formed the nephilim (meaning “mighty men”), of whom Goliath was one. Note that this belief is not a Biblical anomaly. References to giants can be found in the legends of almost every ancient culture dating back to this time: from the Greeks to the Egyptians, and the Hindus to the Native Americans. It is my belief that the existence of these creatures is what merited the global flood of Noah, but that's straying somewhat off topic.
If FFRF is correct in deeming this belief absurd, then it should be studied as the most magnificently well-orchestrated hoax of all time: to get ancient cultures spanning the globe to unilaterally subscribe to this “ridiculous” legend.
I hope I haven't scared anyone off with these answers, but I don't believe you can be a cafeteria Christian, picking and choosing just the fragments of Scripture that suit you. I believe it's an all-or-nothing venture. That said, never take Kalibri at his word; test my conclusions against what you know to be true: the Word of God.
As a final, unrelated note, please pray for the families who have lost loved ones to one of the recent senseless acts of violence. While the unexpected loss of life is always tragic, it's especially painful around this time of year. Please keep in prayer everyone who has been affected by these tragedies, including the families of the perpetrators, who have also had their lives irrevocably changed.
ybiC,
Kalibri
I did learn though from the part you said here about stoning. It was a verse that concerned me somewhat, but I'm glad you explained it
Understand the scripture is to those who seek Jesus and yearn to understand.
This is an example.
God bless and have a good night.
I don't remember reading much about the nephilim in my sojourns through the Bible. We do indeed have proof though, that even Angels can be rebellious, and are themselves beings of free will. A better example of this would be Lucifer, who tried unsuccessfully to destroy creation out of jealousy, and arrived at results that were not so easily washed away. Each of these beings who are caught doing something they aren't supposed to be doing are dealt with accordingly. I've always just assumed that the higher pantheon of beings in God's court were beholden to a higher form of the law, but that's pretty much all speculation because we can't see any of that here.
Did Dragons and Giants ever really exist? I don't know. At one time people from all over the world certainly believed they did, and their enduring legacy has been handed down even to us; albeit only as creatures of fantasy. Even if they aren't real, it mayn't be as much of a hoax as God simply humoring the way early Man saw the world, something I believe He did in relating the creation story to Moses.
As a set-up for all that, Creation as presented in the Bible works. The only reason I think it might be more allegorical than a word for word account is that what we're actually seeing from observing creation itself does not seem to support the Biblical account of these events.
But maybe our observations are wrong or too narrow. Maybe the Bible presents creation from God's point of view and not Man's, so that the story told by Moses is more consistent with how God may have experienced it from outside of time and space; two constraints that Man is very much bound by.
Actually, I think that latter suggestion is probably it. God is referred to as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Standing outside the Universe, for Him it may occur all at once. When we look at the same thing from inside the same Universe, we see time and space. The Earth can be both old and new. It's all a matter of perspective!
*ponders*
And no, I'm not requesting serious debate here about Genesis. I understand the purpose of the passages...I'm just thinking aloud about metaphysical stuff.
But I digress, I'm not trying to create the argument here, I'm just interested in the metaphysics too. If you already have the background in quantum mechanics and relativity (even just a passing understanding), then I highly recommend Chuck Missler's lectures on Genesis. They're free at khouse.org if you're interested. He presents his view, but he includes others so listeners can decide for themselves.
It's like translating text from one language to another. Sometimes you have to approximate words to get the correct meaning. In this case, we'd be approximating days to get the correct amount of time (from God's point of view).
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me that God exists outside of time. It would handily explain how Genesis handles time (answer: from God's perspective put into a context that Man can understand), and it underscores the concept of Alpha/Omega.
we take Bible passages for meaning of today's meanings.
While a lot of it will fit with today's definitions, we must think of
what the meaning of when it was written.
These differences can be minor to major.
Also I will definitely keep those people in prayer. At least those kids and teachers are in Gods hands now.
But otherwise thanks! It nice to be able to read something to help us refresh our minds, and think on what God wants us to do.