I totally understand, its not weird at all to me.

Thank you, I must say I do feel like a hypocrite saying one animal is okay to work with while another is hands off, but it's very much a life value issue, I just really would rather not make more business off an animal whose sole purpose in life was to make a dollar for someone.
At least with something wild, it's just dumb luck that it made it into a hunter's sights.

Empathy is a human trait, animals don't care, I envy them for that.

Exactly.
There is no chance for a farmed creature.
It is born for its fur, it lives its life for the fur, and it dies for its fur.

Now -most- not all fur farms DO care for the creatures pretty well.
(But only so the furs are top quality, not the quality of life)

Hunting takes skill, time, energy, and drive...snapping necks does not.

Yes, I'm not implying EVERY farmed animal is tortured or abused, but I do understand that laws and regulations are only words.
Puppy mills still exist, inspectors are not required to check up on licensed businesses more than once a year (for food items at least) and you can never tell when you get a pelt what exactly the creature went through. You can always get stains out of a pelt.

I've seen plenty of photos of small elevated cages, and I worked in petstores and know very well the difference between an animal and a product.
You'd be surprised how soft a pelt can be from an animal that's been sick for weeks.

The point of farmed fox pelts are to prevent the utter destruction of wild fox populations strictly for fur. they kill them in the most humane way, and it only takes a few seconds for the said pain to stop. It may be a bit inhumane by human standards, but so is a fox living in a cemetary in the middle of a concrete jungle. and the foxes in the farms are actually well fed, rather than having to fight for food every day. it's your belief, but it's also for all the wrong reasons, when killed they feel no pain, when they are raised, they are well fed, and don't live more than about eight months till their full grown, also a bad thing, but it prevents them from living for years in a box. chickens are killed at three months. cattle at three weeks for veal. and fish at about the same age for fingerlings.

It's not always in proper conditions, I'm not saying it's always bad, but the point of domesticating any animal is investing the least funds to yield the highest return.

I don't think they torture the creatures, but you can't say for certain how they dispatch them. It could be an injection of paint thinner, it could be drowned, it could be a broken neck, it could be any number of ways that doesn't damage the fur.

I just don't sit well with any domestication of living things for a product (pet industry included), I hold no grudges against omnivores, I'd eat flesh if I had the heart to hunt.
I respect your input, but I still don't want that emotional toll on my mind.

true.

the USDA and ASPCA have standards, they have a minimal limit on how long an animal can suffer during death, so injections or drowning are out of the question, breaking the neck would work and put them out of pain quickly, but it'd be the same way as getting a cow hide i would think, a bolt gun to the forehead. it's still hard to watch, at sixteen i watched the processing videos for cow chicken and pigs, and i swore off of them for about two years.

I know the feeling, i can't stand the rabbit industry, the parents are usually in very subpar conditions, and i'm probably gonna have to do research on the foxes, I'm actually talking on something i know very little about.

The thing is, they have standards set, but if inspectors aren't there, practices aren't regulated.
How many times have you slacked off at work when your supervisor wasn't around?

I live in PA where puppy mills are VERY much a problem. I can't cite exact information, but I know that the inspectors really are only out for that bare minimum required. And a lot of people get away with animal breeding by saying it was an accidental litter, that their dog got pregnant when it got loose. Happens all the time around here, Heck, I've seen flyers with "AKC" Pit Bull puppies written in sharpie 'male and fee-male' looked like a child wrote it. Trust me, no breeder is going to have a hand written flyer, much less not know it's 'female', not 'fee-male'

I've worked in kitchens when the health inspector literally walked in the door, signed the paper, and walked right back out, and this kitchen was a HORROR SHOW (I called my employment at that time "grease slave" and it wasn't even fast food....)

With the injections, I'll be honest with you, that's a widely used method for trappers to dispatch animals without damaging the pelt.

"Re: how to kill game birds
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 08:38:28 PM »

A small syringe and needle half full of solvent (acetone, denatured alcohol, etc) injected in the back between the wings will kill the crap out of it in seconds!"

This topic was game birds but the method is used with all game.

Yikes O_o you have a point, my manager has done the same thing as well, an inspector ask about a grease or mold stain, 'oh that just got there, we clean every night' no. the cleaning crew screws us over every night tripping fuses and leaving beer cans in the walk in.


You do have a point, i was not looking into that, I'll probably, if ever, buy a pelt from the pest control out here, we have horrid issues of deer coming into actual neighborhoods, and devouring numbers of plants and demolishing lawns.

I'm not sure if you browsed the other mini discussions here, but Artslave said something that I really take to heart.

She mentioned how in one POV, taking an animal that was caught in the wild might be disrespectful in the way of man imposing on nature, and that buying from farms leaves less of an impact on our Earth. I'm really glad she said that, it helps me see from an angle I never would've thought.

Our own personal comfort zones are just that. I honestly do not judge or fault ANYONE for buying these pelts, The username escapes me, but I know there's someone on here who seems to mostly work with farmed pelts, and they process them their-selves. This is a VERY admirable trait, I do not think any less of them whatsoever, in fact I truly do admire their workmanship to have the drive to do that all on their own.

My reasons are very personal. But I have never been one to want to force anyone to live by my moral code.

(I'll be cheesy here XD)
"it's those differences that make us the rainbow!" :B

Ah, that is true, and yes, it was cheesy, but it's true. and if i can throw one more in there 'it's abnormal to be normal, so feel free to be eccentric and different'

Yes see, it's great to close it in a light way <3

I will admit, I was a little put off, possibly offended that you said my beliefs were all for the wrong reasons, but I didn't think you were criticizing me and I did not want to try to argue and bicker like a child, nor did I take it as a personal attack. I just thought I'd put it on the table since we both held nice composure and had a good mature conversation <3

No foul feelings on my part!

it is ^^

I did not mean it in that way, I didn't know how else to put it, Autism makes conversation a bit difficult sometimes ^^; I'm glad you stuck around to talk a bit though, so i could explain myself more. I can't tell you how many times people have blocked me before i could get an explanation to them.

that's good ^^ none on my part either.

I have a tough time putting things into words too, especially since a lot of my core beliefs and morals are very much something I've developed over my life, not something I read in an article and applied to life, so I don't always put these feelings into spoken word very well m'self. I know how easily something online can be misinterpreted. Going back and reading my journal I mightn't sounded a little like the father telling the son he can't listen to punk rock "NOT IN MY HOME!!! >:C " XD

Actually I was hoping I wouldn't loose you as a watcher on my end XD, I'd hate to turn someone off by something as simple as me setting up some boundries, and that was really all I meant to state, just my personal comfort levels, not to say it's the right mindset, or anything like that :3

I can understand that, they're personal so you've never had to vocalize them before, it can be hard finding the right words. No kidding, you can't use sarcasm in typing... unless it's really really really blatant.

nah, Not that childish, I might go off to my pouty corner for a little bit though XD just setting up boundaries so you aren't pushed out of them by commissioners, right?

Yep, I had quite a bit of interest since I announced I'm working on a headdress and I did get 2 people who asked if I could get a farmed colour morph or if I'd work on their's.
Because my work deals with not only visual design but also intended purpose I do have to maintain a certain comfort level, My art is a huge part of my life, it's a passion, or possibly an addiction, but my views on life and interpretation of morals, symbolic themes and such are what fuel my work and make it not only valuable for me but also keeps me growing as a person and artist. :3

ah, I see. that is important ^^ and the color morphs aren't really that with foxes most of the time, they're just varying degrees of foxes changing from summer to winter and winter to summer furs (With the red fox anyway)

I'm probably half and half on this; I would rather choose to hunt an animal that has a fighting chance and gain the pelt that way, or get a pelt from someone who hunted the animal fairly.
I don't like the situations farmed foxes or any farmed creature, really. I think the only animal I really don't care about if it's farmed is a rabbit but that's my opinion and no one else's.

I will agree that farmed foxes have beautiful pelts, yes. But the only reason they have those pelts is because of domesticated breeding. Inbreeding. Cross-breeding. Selective breeding. "Calico", "pearl", "Cinnamon", they're all..designer colors, are they not? I will probably never own a farmed fox pelt for two reasons. A, they are pricey, over priced. And B, I don't like the methods they are raised and killed. Humanely or not.

-huff- I've seen a few parts of taxidermy/trapper trade I'd rather not see with farmed animals. It's turned me off on the whole farmed deal.

I will, however, work with pieces of farmed animal. Scraps, tails, etc etc. I'm not sure why I'd do that and not the pelt -shrug-

Yes, the fact that an animal just in the wrong place at the wrong time to me is better than that animal raised only for the profit of man. I choose to exclude myself because if I work with the pelt and then selling it I'm cementing that that animal is again only there for monetary gain. I feel it's disrespect, that animal did have a life, even if it was never free. It's existence DOES matter.

We all have our boundaries of what we're comfortable with, it doesn't make anyone any better or worse than any other person. How many times do you read a profile and see an artists "wills" and "won'ts" lists? I am certainly not judging anyone who chooses to own or work with these things. Although I do understand it is a little hypocritical to say one animal is okay for me to use and another isn't. They ALL did die for someone to make a dollar. It's just something I feel empathy towards, those animals that don't know what grass feels like.

I feel the same way.
I do not buy from hunters or fur farms.

I only buy from hunters if it's from pest control and such.

I try to do the same, I don't like trophy hunting, a dead animal does not make you more of a "man"
Especially when you shot it from so far away the animal could not even smell you.

Trophy hunters don't usually sell their trophies, as a headsup. If a hunter is trying to sell you a fur, it's probably because he isn't going to use it.

Just another hunters POV.

That's a HUGE overlooked point
*thumbs up*

Good point. I'd probably get scraps and things they may throw out.

If they're offering it at a decent price I would nab it. generally when you kill off vermin you just chuck em. Not many take the time to skin them. If you find a hunter at the trading post or municipal office or exterminator's who IS killing them off as vermin, tell him you will take the bodies and skin them for him in exchange for some of the pelts. 99.9% of the time he will let you keep a mess of them. Free skins and save on wasting!

Very true :)

I pretty much agree with you on this matter. I really don't like the idea of supporting fur farms although the morphed foxes are quite beautiful. I'd much rather have the comfort in knowing that for sure the animal was free and living a natural wild life before a swift end; Rather than living in a small enclosure with no enrichment or any natural elements whatsoever.

But that raises something I'm curious about, how do you feel about recycled/second-hand furs that weren't purchased directly from the farm?

That's why I said I might work on a pelt if it was already owned by someone for some time. Partially it's because I feel like some of the sorrow might be diffused by the owner's appreciation for the piece (and this is just my superstitious feelings), but more reasonably it's because the item would not be purchased directly from the farmer.

I actually said on DA, if I had the opportunity to get a second-hand farmed pelt in a trade I'd probably take it, but I wouldn't buy one, even second hand.
Working with the pelts in a large part is celebrating the life of the animal, keeping it 'immortal' with physical preservation, but also the memory of the animal and the values we see in them, It's hard to celebrate something that had no real life.

Kinda makes me wonder with the fur trade, why cats and dogs cannot be bred, skinned, and sold as fashion or taxidermy. I'm sure it's just that we hold these animals in high regards as family pets. But really they are just animals, subject to man's profit as any other domestic or wild animal.
(I'm not suggesting that as a good idea, I'm just playing devils advocate)

This is a toss up. Because fox hides are used so often, I feel it is better for the wild population that we do have farms. I've never personally visited a fur farm that was run questionably, they all seemed up to scratch, and the animals all seemed happy. Because the beasts needed to grow to maturity to reach full skin size, they live relatively long lives for farmed animals. If we only hunted wild foxes to meet the needs of the fur trade these days, we would have wiped out the fox in the seventies. This would be a huge problem because they are close to an apex predator(Well as close as you can get since we wiped out the wolves, mountain lions, bears.. ). Wiping out another predator for our own moral vanity would be immenintly destructive to society- could you imagine all the rats that a dozen foxes eat over their lifetimes? BREEDING? We would be overrun.

While I appreciate the sentiment behind your point of view, I think we are unfortunately blessed with these massive craniums so as to be able to look beyond the small scope of what we feel is right and get a view of the larger picture. While I don't encourage you to break your morality because of something some jackass said on the internet, I *DO* advise you to find a local fur farm, visit them and ask questions. Get a first hand perspective and then see what you think. It's very easy to fall prey to the lure of internet propoganda without seeing this stuff up close. I know, my family are cattle farmers. If I see another PETA video I'm seriously going to lose my shit.

That aside, I don't doubt there are some shoddily run fur farms, it's probably a rampant problem. But I do highly advise seeing if your local one is well run. Unfortunately, because we wiped out the larger predators, we're stuck with the responsibility of maintining the ecological pyramid, and if farming furs helps that, I am all for it. Stupid fragile environment :/ We should all be rock men from omicron persii 7.

Yea, I know what you mean with the supply and demand for fur, it's a very valid point to bring to the table. And I know not ALL farms are horror shows, I actually have heard some farms selling some animals as pets. But to me personally, I have no real significant desire for these pelts that I would take the time to do the research and all that.

The major opposition isn't really about the treatment of the animal, I work with the pelts on a personal level. Partially it's all just stuff in my head, nothing really tangible or 'real'. But if I buy a pelt, something that had live value, that was only alive for someone to turn profit, craft it, and sell it, I feel it shows a bit of disrespect to the animal. On a life-equality level. It just solidifies that it wasn't a living feeling thing, just a crop intended to generate funds. It's something I don't want to weigh on my morally. I just feel a lot better working with the animals that had a fighting chance and just ran into some bad luck meeting up with a hunter or trapper.

It's superstitious, I know, but it is the way I feel.
I do appreciate the point of view. I'll leave the animals that man produces for those who produce on the larger scale. :p

And that's fine, I understand and respect your point of view. From where I sit, it's perfectly alright to want to hunt your own stuff(Or even better, salvage/scavenge it!) to respect the life of that animal.

I find a lot of people think that hunting an animal 'gives it a chance'. Given the amazing technology at our disposal designed to kill with great efficiency, I don't think the animals really have 'a chance', and most people who go out hunting these days don't know jack about the animals they're hunting. There's an old indian adage to 'wait for the fawn, wait for the doe, wait for the young buck, but shoot the ld buck' or something like that. Lots of people would go out hunting because 'yeah lets make sure the animal lives a long and prosperous life!', sit around all day, get impatient and the FIRST fox they come across they'll blast to tarnation, without heed of it's age, sex, if it's pregnant or starving or anything. After 8 hours of sitting in mud, it's "Lets get one and get out of here". I don't really think that's respecting the animal at ALL, that's getting impatient and just wanting to bag it to satisfy one's own morality. The other thing is, I think it's more respectful to the animals to farm a bunch of them up, and kill them after they've lived a long, happy(let's face it, domesticated animals live longer, more fulfilling, happier lives than wild ones.. that's why all cats are domestic! WHAT HUNT MICE!? FUCK THAT MEOW MIX AND A BED YEAHHHHH BOY) life. Even if the farmed animals are miserable, you've still got a thriving wild population. It would be more respectful for us as a species to swallow our pride, leave the wild ones THE FUCK ALONE and spend all our efforts ensuring that farmed animals were all guaranteed satisfying, happy lives.

And someone mentioned about foxes being selectively bred and that being wrong? We've been selectively breeding, cross breeding, inbreeding domestic animals for YEARS for their best traits. Look at dogs, cows, horses, pigs, sheep, cats, even lab rodents and chimps. Another idea I just can't wrap my head around is how this is wrong.

Obviously not saying anyone here would be a dick and just shoot whatever came their way, but I've seen FAR too many jackass hunters from the cities come by with this stupid notion of 'i'm gonna give the animal a chance.... with my .45-70 fuckin elephant gun, also bait, and snares, and traps, and camo and..', and then they just take the head and LEAVE the fucking carcass to rot!! And they usually poach on your land so it's just UGH ALSJKDLAKSJDLAKSJDLKASJDLASJKDLAJSDLJALSDJALSDJLASJDLAJSDLAJSDLKAJSLDKJALKSDJ SORRY I HAD FLASHBACKS

I wish we could shoot poachers, I really do. I forget what I was saying, I think I ranted. Sorry, I blacked out. But yes! I respect your opinion and share it to a degree, I think that if companies shut down and all hunted animals it would suck balls so for now I just go to places I want to buy fur or meats from and check them out ahead of time.

Oh yea, I'm with you 100%, the only fairness to an animal is the odds that it'll run into a hunter, the fight it'self is one-sided. If I had the heart to hunt I'd do it Bear Grylls style, tree snares and chuckin pieces of wood. XD I wouldn't get something each time, but I'd really appreciate it when I did. As well as eating whatever I get (unless it's a scavenger, those you have to feed a few days to process out any rotten meat they may be digesting, though you seem like you VERY much know your stuff, so you probably know that too)
But hunting still does take quite a bit of effort, as you said, sitting for hours freezing your ass off. Deer especially, most people don't have ATVs, a friend of mine goes out and has drag whatever he bags back to his truck, and a lot of times the shot doesn't kill right away and the deer gets a chance to run off a good bit.

I am learning the processes of tanning, I need to work on my skinning, I'm very much more of a 'butcher' when it comes to that stuff (although butchers are actually pretty skilled with a knife) Once I get good at it I'm going to try to work on pelts as much as I can on my own with things I find already dead. Or get whole bodies from trappers who are going out on farms and removing pests. I'm lucky I live in farm area and a hunting community.

I do hear mixed things on the farmed animals, I can't say I've ever been to one, only saw some pictures that made me think. (these were not on peta type sites, they were from sellers showing off crops) I hear some say they kill them off after 10 months-ish, some say they let them live a long full life (which cost-wise doesn't make sense, you'd think the pelts would cost much more if an animal was kept 5-6 years being fed and cared for) I really can't say, either way.

*Flings woodpile pieces at black bear* FUCK YOU BEAR! IM GOING TO WEAR YOUR SKIN! XD Best mental image ever. The bear is so confused, THEN ANGRY.

I have meathooks for when I bag a deer, I usually go out with a second person so we haul it back by hand after we field dress it. We figure leaving the salt lick and field dressings as offerings for our forest friends are the best we can do to exchange for such a generous offering from the deer. Fortunately, we're both really good shots and we usually take it down before it knows what hit it. A few times we've had to kill it, but we always opt for bullet + brain rather than slitting, faster and we don't take trophies, we're out there for meat. More bits for the critters, anyhow.

Yeah, I bet if you put a few posters up at the local convenience mart you'd be able to get free meat + skins(Thats what I did) for hunters to bring their hauls to you for cleaning/dressing. I just skinned them, partitioned each quarter/neckhead/torso and trimmed out the ribs/vertebrae. I didn't have to grind any meat or steak them up or anything, although sometimes I had requests to make sausage, which I got a few bucks for, which was nice. But yeah, give it a try if you haven't already. I would do about 30-60 deer a season. Not enough time to tan all the hides unless you liquid tanned them, but working the leather took a buttload of time for me. I want to chemical tan if I do that again, because you just can't butcher + work that many hides a season, and chem tanning seems to save a buttload of time.

Depends on the farmer, I guess. I know sometimes they want to turn as quick a buck as possible, use young hides and soft furs, but lots of times waiting until they get their winter coats in on a larger animal will produce a much more luxurious fur, so many will wait out an extra 9 months to get the more expensive furs. Plus it depends on the farmer or owner, loads of people still try to remain connected to our animal brothers as best we can, despite the need to slaughter them for consumption of one kind or another. You can usually tell a farmer from a greasy businessman based on how old they slaughter at. We can't sell our meat but locally because of how old our cows are. Any city folk'd say it was too tough for their refined palletes(Which mostly eat jersey anyways which goes to show you what they think refined means ;) ), but me I like older beasts. More character and flavour to the pelt, meat or leather. Plus it's satisfying to know the critter had a decent life.

You know what. I like you :>
I like having these discussions, the whole journal entirely, It's always nice to get a lot of people's opinions. Today's whole discussion for me has just been nice, from both party's views.

It's good to that you've thrown in some hunter's perspectives. I know a few for real and 2-3 online, and most people automatically assume just because you hunt means you don't give a shit about any creature, and that you're in in only for the pleasure of killing and holding a trophy. The guys I know are not like that at all, similar views as you, The guy I know who brings in deer does it 100% for meat, and he processes it all by hand. I know he does some sort of ceremony with it too, but I'm not one to pry into someones spiritual practices and never really asked, all I know is he always buries the defleshed bones and plants flowers or bushes on it because he believes what he cannot use should go back to the Earth. I know he's a far descendant from some local tribe but I couldn't tell you which one. (my US tribe knowledge is lacking)
Even people who don't do anything 'spiritual' or whatever to the animal typically show a LOT of respect for the animal and are thankful for the meat thet get from it.

If I ever get to the point where I'm good at tanning I doubt I'll do anything large, probably just 'vermin' especially since I REALLY hate fleshing.... *wants mini auto flesher, and writes so to Santa* Although I can't really say I know what I'll think about that 6 months down the line, if I get good at the processes and whatnot.

Good, I like you too XD And yes I love ethics discussions especially on online forums, but it's so bloody rare for both sides not to tear each others heads off with personal accusations and other bogus logical fallacies and ASKDJLASJDLAJS INTERNETS. XD

Where are you at again? I know you said you were almost local. The next time I go hunting I should give you a headsup and we can have a fleshing/butcher/tanning party XD (My favourite kinds). I like skinning most kinds of vermin, rabbits and squirrel and woodchuck especially just because the skin comes off so easy and you're left with dinner and the night's entertainment(Working a hide). Also way easier to work something thats like.. squirrel sized, just run it over your strip over and over. Versus a deer which is a little more work, although don't be turned off by their size, for the most part the hardest part is stripping it to the knuckle-joints and then they have this abdominal muscle that's attached to their belly-skin but it's easy to peel off with a sharp, flat knife. I think the worst thing was bear, but thats only because the fat clings to your hands when you run your hand between the muscle and skin to seperate the skin from the meat. But it's not too bad! Fleshers are nice, but I really only use them when we have to process cattle because we usually have to do like 8 in a day or something. I couldn't drop the like.. 2 grand on good conscience. Plus I think skinning is the most fun :D LOOK AT ALL THESE CADAVERS I GET TO PLAY WITH FUCK YOU MED SCHOOL I CANT PAY FOR VISITS TO THE MORGUE BUT I HAVE ANIMALS! almost the same, lol.

But I think most people who kill for the sake of killing something to feel manly or whatever are sick in the head. Animals or people, doesn't matter.

I think most hunters in the modern age, at least real hunters, not sport hunters, have some kind of spiritual connection to the hunt or the prey, we(as a generation) are really getting back to nature as a whole, in our own ways. At least from what I've seen, so that's always good lookin for the future if the next generation continues in the same vein :D

Yea, I won't let myself get upset with something I read online. I've been fortunate so far that no one's left me any 'real fur/hide hate' but if/when I do I won't respond... or maybe that'll be the day I get the balls to go kill something! XD (j/k)

I try to see things from other people's view points, I know I'm not the only one who has valid opinions, and you can always learn something from someone.
When you can listen to another persons point of view, especially if it doesn't agree with your's, then you REALLY gain knowledge. :D

I'm 17603, I think I'm about an hour and a half from you (probably more, but that's because traffic is really bad once you get into MD) That's a possibility! Though I'd probably have to take a bus or train in, I hate driving long distances @.@

But yes, the whole practice is so fascinating, I must admit, I still cringe during most of the process, not that I'm grossed out, I've been salvaging dead things are quite sometime, It's just I can never shake the feeling that I'm hurting the animal. Fleshing is very much something you get significantly better at the more you do it, I'm VERY new to processing hides, but I saw great improvement in time and technique from the first section of hide to the 4th and last.

It's nice too when you see REAL hunters actually pick at the sportsmen. XD
I think as we as a society advance technologically, a large group of us will to a point reject that lifestyle and try to "get back to nature" as the term goes. it IS nice to see we can keep some of our basic instincts or practices alive,. Back to tanning, the guy who owns the trading post I frequent is VERY much willing to teach me brain tanning using 'the old methods'. I always go in there and talk to him about pelts for at least half an hour. XD He says his son is not at all interested in the practice (pelt working in general), so I think he really just wants to preserve the practice which is a big honor for me. I can't wait till it gets warmer! ouo

It's not at all strange, it's an extension of respect towards the animals. I really do wish that farmed foxes had much better quarters, and were treated better than they are. Still, until people are willing to treat the animals they raise for fur (or for any purpose, really) with respect and care we need to make clear where we stand on these issues. I do my utmost best to source my animal products from places that treat their animals as well as I can hope for so it's not strange at all to me that you would have that opinion about working with furs. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to clearly delineate where you stand on this matter and be able to choose which pelt you are willing to work with.

Yes, I know not all farms are bad, but I know not all are great, I just don't feel right working with something that lived only to die and turn profit. Whether or not that animal would be alive in the first place if man did not want it (as far as breeding and cross breeding etc goes) none the less it is still a living thing, and should have a little more worth than $300 paper dollars.

perfectly valid point of view

beyond the ethics conversation, your work feels more suited to wild animal parts, aesthetically and spiritually

It's very much tied directly to the forest. I'd much rather work with an animal that actually knew life being wild.
Although Artslave's reply/convo really got me thinking, the whole topic really. At this point in my life I think I'm still more comfortable working with the wild and free guys.

Although I do feel a little more open minded about farmed stuff. It's still not for me, but I feel it's been intellectually beneficial. :)

My friend I have a new found respect for you and understand your reasons to be honest I would not even talk to you if you used ranched hides I would not want anything of the sort within 50 miles of my home. You are a respectful person and I am proud that you care about where your pelts and resources come from

Yes, until I can fully process pelts myself I either try to get animals caught locally as pests (these I get from a local trading post) Animals ordered online, which are also caught as pests, or hides that someone doesn't necessarily want anymore, secondhand.

As I grow as an artist and a internet community member I realize information like this is extremely helpful to clients, especially for the underlining reasons of my personal craft. I put a lot of thought and intention in my work, I do not want to add any sorrow I feel into my craft.

In my opinion such standards just make you that much more of a respectfull person you care and honor the creature whos life was given for the hide or bone such care and honor allows the spirit to rest in peace and carry on in the next life

Thank you :>

I know little about vulpine farming. My knowledge of wildlife policy and ethics is limited to the traditional sense of free range animals and traditional hunting.

However, I will add that commercial production can reduce harvest pressure on wild populations, particularly with threatened, endangered and critically listed species. With the red fox Vulpes vulpes and the gray fox Urocyon cinereoargenteus being listed as "least concern", there is little threat. Thus commercial raising is unnecessary.

The production and treatment of any species, wild or domesticated, is controversial and difficult to provide a answer that satisfies involved parties.


“Examine each question in terms of what is ethically and aesthetically right, as well as what is economically expedient. A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise.”
― Aldo Leopold

Yes, although there may be laws placed to prevent any mistreatment of these creatures (not just foxes farmed for fur, but also pet animals and food animals) that does not mean each farm is complying.
When an inspector is there I'm sure everything is peachy keen, and if the regulations for fur farms (or any other animal producing business) is anything like the food industry the owners will know the month in which the inspectors will be there. So it's easy (I'm speaking from restaurant experience) to keep the place up to standards for that month, then go back into the sloppy ways.

As Artslave pointed out, and it's something VERY true, if we did not have farms, we would still need the fur, and we could easily devastate the wild animals. I'm not 100% against the farms, just for my art and on the level that I work, I would really just rather not use it.

Ah, are you able to connect with the lingering spirit/vibe of the animal on it's body and parts, too?
If I come in contact with an animal part, I am able to tell what kind of life it lived.

I would try ordering scrap fur bits from various farms, and choose a farm with an overall high happiness rating to buy from.

Not really, the most I can draw from remains is inspiration and general energies. I think I told you before I'm a very tactile buyer, heh.
Even with crafts, my method is typically lay out all my materials and hold stuff, play with it in my hands until I know how it should be worked.

The rattle I made recently, I was just looking for craft bones in a bin and when I grabbed that vertebrae I immediately what I was going to make it into.
I didn't know how it was going to look however, until it was done.

To be honest I have little desire for these types of pelts, they do look very nice but personally I have little connection to the fox aside from aesthetic admiration, so I doubt I'd buy one at all. I mean, even if the animal wasn't in horrible conditions and was fed and care for with dignity and respect, the fact that it was "created" only to generate money puts out enough heartache for me. I'd much rather work with animals who knew the forest.

I understand completely!
And I was just assuming based on some comments up there ^
I'm always eager to meet other people with the ability to connect to animals like I do, and even just being tactile, you are drawing inspiration which, to me, shows that you have at least some connection.

I'm the same way, with the pelts, though. I get ALL my furs/bones from roadkill.
Since I live in Alabama, it's abundant.
I prefer to turn the dead into beautiful art, there is no dignity in being smashed in asphalt for weeks until you disintegrate. :/

I do have a little connection, but nothing where I can single out specifics on a pelt, or maybe it's just I'm unsure of how to translate the energy into a 'language' I can understand, as far as specifics. But for instance, the headdress I'm working on I I felt a very 'rogue' feeling to him something that suggest to me that he was a fighter.

I try to get most of my stuff that way, just it's so hard in the winter, during the warmer months I'm always dragging SOMETHING home XD

I completely agree with that and I almost forgot that those horrible things even existed. I don't understand how someone can morally be okay with getting fur from a ranch because "it's not wild" :/ That almost makes it worse to me. Just to be born into a hell where your only value is your fur...ugh, I'm getting nauseous x.x

I can see why some people don't have a problem with it I can see why some people PREFER working with them. Just for me and my artistic purposes, I would prefer not to...
The only way I would would be if they are second hand.. or something already owned for some time...

That's understandable. I should really look into fur farming just to be informed more so. I only know a little about it and one of them around here uses very inhumane ways to kill their "livestock". Though it is weird to think if a "humane" way to kill something.

That's what I say, there is no humane way to kill anything, death is natural, it happens to everything, but 'humane' as defined by man can mean a VERY large number of ways; electrical shock, suffocation, acetone injections, dry ice suffocation, a shot to the head (although not likely with fur animals, unless a farm is strictly fashion fur) But I highly doubt anyone euthanizes animals as far as anesthesia overdose, as I think only medical vets/doctors can do this.

yeah the one around here does the electrocution by basically spit roasting the fox with two cattle prods :/
I want to learn more but at the same time I'm afraid of what I'll learn :c

I know that knowledge of these practices is good for the animals, that people do know and are aware, but I can't do that myself, I try to keep myself ignorant, which is a bit wrong, especially since it's ignoring their pain. But when I see posts about pet abuse or other relating topics I can't read them. It puts such a burden on me...

I completely agree with that, unfortunately. Ignorance is bliss :/