What "convincing arguement" could make you think morals are worth nothing? I'd just like to know what makes you think that.

Mwehehee, well. Let's take an example right away with honesty.
First, I'm not a fan of lies. Second I'm sorry if I say something that doesn't make sense but it's hard for me to find the right words in english.

"Honesty" = "To express your judges and thoughts directly and unaltered from what you have in mind."
What do you think will work out better? To say your boss your true thoughts or what he wants to hear if you need something? Do you think your customers will buy your stuff if you are completely honest with the way you present your goods? Do you think you will get better off if you don't try to twist your taxes?
Further, honesty never will promise you any advantages. The best advantage you'll get out of it to prevent damage you might take if you are unhonest. That's the only thing you get promised from honesty.

Of course as a moralist one would think that everything will work out fine in a world where everyone is honest, but that's simply not true. It's just that in the real world honesty collides with the actual needs and interests of people so it inevitable leads to disadvantages even.

Well, while I can't say I've stayed out of the realm of deception, there are some pretty thin lines I won't cross.

A) deceiving people out of sadistic feeling, just to see them hurt.
I am not a sadist, masochist, or really any other type of "ist" that is negatively connotative. Doing this just makes you feel like a dick for doing it, and the other person just gets hurt, what a wonderful situation.
B) stepping on people.
It's one thing to deceive someone to conceal a personal secret, or get ahead, but when lies and deception set people back from THEIR goals... It just isn't right.
C) stealing
Pretty much the same as stepping on people. If everyone did these things, the world would be chaos.
D) empty promises
A promise is something you say that is unconditionally true. If you promise with no intention of actually doing something, meh, this one is hard to explain, but I try to avoid breaking promises.

There are probably other lines I won't cross, but those are the ones I thought up off of the top of my head.

interesting..

however I think where I can talk most about is D)
I also believe there's a difference between the other ones and D)
Law. It is more or less built on morale after all, and what it does is protecting people('s havings). That's why I'd make a difference between abc and d. Where D) is something very common and acceptable in society the others seem wrong/"illegal".

My personal experience also showed it's very common to always promise more than you can do. I know many people saying "Yes that'll work and it'll be great!" or "Yep, I'll be doing that!", and then.. nothing. I suppose it's connected to the value 'honesty', see my comment above.
Where I also agree with you that it's not right to do empty promises, it often just collides with reality, where you cannot promise a thing actually.

It's difficult.. but that's where I'm stuck with thinking. If I'd hold onto my morale thinking it's "Don't promise ANYTHING you cannot fulfill for sure.", but that just differs a lot from reality. *shrugs*

what I think is interesting is that everyone has their own set of morals, ya know? for example one person might think its bad to steal and another may not, it just depends on who it is.
I mean a lot of people may have similar ones but I dont think all of them will really be the exact same in most cases.
I think a lot of people learn these from what they learn growing up, or if they're religious a lot of times its church, and the main influence i would say is just life experience.
maybe i'm just stating the obvious but its kind of interesting to me o-o
for me I guess i've learned in my life that theres a lot of gray areas to things. like 'you should never kill someone' but... theres a gray area to that, like, what if they're attacking you and trying to kill you first? hmmmm..... or like, 'be nice to everyone' but i'm not going to be nice to a super rude mean person xD
so yes.

Well, you gotta differ between general ethic and the moral values like honesty, altruism, modesty, effort, frugality(?) or politeness. Because I don't want to talk about right and wrong here
But of course, I totally agree with you there. Nothing and I mean NOTHING in this world is only black or white.

Life experience! That's a great word. Or words.
Because exactly that's my point. Those 'values' or 'scales' for how-to-life just seem to be a wrong thing to hold onto, as they are just unpractical.
Like, 'be nice to everyone' and 'be honest' are two totally different things! And I can tell you.. the latter is the much worse option. My experience also showed that the less morale people have the better they seem to go through life *shrugs*


Thanks for your input!

But are you really happy with a life built up inside a castle of gold and lies? "Money doesn't buy happiness," it can do some influencing, but in the end it's actually the small things that matter.

The media likes to goad us into thinking that being rich and famous is the best life you can live, but the media is probably the number one biggest deceiver we have. The media deceives us so much everyone basically just discredits what they have to say about a certain situation.

This is also another factor in success, if you constantly cheat, lie, and stab people in the back, they aren't going to trust you. Then what? Go somewhere you have no bad reputation?

There is a quote from the famous actor Jim Carry:

“I hope everybody could get rich and famous and will have everything they ever dreamed of, so they will know that its not the answer.”

Did you pick up on anything particular I said?
Asking because I wouldn't put things this way from what I said (or meant) actually. I don't support lieing nor cheating at all. What I try to talk about is if it's wrong to hold onto something like honesty tho. But there's a difference
It's more about.. that you will not earn any respect or success from just being honest, but in fact even quite the opposite.

The media is a good example for this actually. So you say they deceive and cheat all the time there.. but if it is so wrong, why do they still "win" after all? Why don't they drown in their own lies if it is so wrong?
You tell the person who cooked your meal it tastes great, no matter what you really think of it. You greet the persons you hate as nicely as the ones you like. Being unhonest.. is actually a normal matter nowadays. So why trying to hold onto a value like honesty so tight or even see it as a scale or norm?


And also to go into your comment more something about me..
I sure do enjoy attention from time to time, but I'm not made for this. I am also not easy to influence or manipulate, and, honestly (lol) I rarely do anything for money's sake. So I totally agree there that money or fame cannot be the answer.

You keep going back to the deceivers are more successful than people with morals. That's what I was getting at.

Possibly because it's true somehow.. I'd say it's pretty much the next step of what I'm stating tho
But that's the point. Why hold onto something unrealistic like honesty if it's just uncommon. Everyone is unhonest, so that's normal. Why try to deny your nature by looking down from a high horse like honesty?

In my last comment I addressed that. Money can influence happiness, but ultimately it's decided by other factors.

So you directly connect money and fame to success and happiness? ;p

Yeeeeeees, for the sake of the debate. :)

interesting! As I wouldn't agree to that, no matter what the media says

Well not neccesarily happiness, but money fame and success are definately interwoven in my eyes.

Hm.. well.. for example
Da Vinci was famous, still poor
And many millionaires (also nowadays) live in huge villas, still very reclusive and void from any fame

Success.. is relative. If you see sucess in getting rich, then you'll have it by earning money, yes.. I think

Also, morals are coded into our DNA. Humans evolved as social animals, which means they give, and in turn others give back as just an accepted rule. You may get ahead of everyone else by not giving back, but others will resent you for it.

Humans aren't the only ones who do this either. Dolphins, vampire bats, and many others as well.

Mhm, humans also tend to murder each other in wars since we exist. Sociality and human-made morals doesn't have to be compatible. In fact, that's also part of my problem I think x)

Just because social animals support each other doesn't mean their genetic programming that makes colonies fight over better resources erased :P