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The "A" word
17 years ago
General
I am reading a book called "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It is leading me to realize that, while I am certainly not alone in my denunciation of religion as an agent of ignorance and fear, I'm up against a wall of prejudice that makes the Great Wall look like a speed-bump.
Once again--it's all about labels. Atheism is a label for someone who believes that there is no personal god--and by personal god I mean the type of deity postulated by Jews, Christians and Muslims. A god who not only created everything in the universe, but maintains it like a garden, even down to getting involved in the affairs of mankind.
People can accept a person who doesn't believe in "God", but they are freaked out when someone calls themselves and Atheist. Hell, Bel can easily accept my non-belief in a personal god, but absolutely refuses to let me call myself the "A"-word when we talk about it. It's the word that scares her. Now THAT is some amazing propaganda!
I tend not to use the word atheist because I don't feel it's completely accurate. I don't believe in "God" or "Heaven" or "Satan" or "Hell". All the evidence suggests that these concepts are the creation of mankind--not the other way around. However, I can't say for absolutely certain that there is NO god of any sort at all. And I DO believe that there are aspects of this universe and of existence that we simply can't perceive. So, technically I am an agnostic. But not because I'm afraid to be an atheist...just that I don't have "Faith" in pure atheism. Faith being belief without reason.
But it IS scary how powerfully the word is perceived. For all those people who think words AREN'T dangerous--there's one you can be afraid of.
Once again--it's all about labels. Atheism is a label for someone who believes that there is no personal god--and by personal god I mean the type of deity postulated by Jews, Christians and Muslims. A god who not only created everything in the universe, but maintains it like a garden, even down to getting involved in the affairs of mankind.
People can accept a person who doesn't believe in "God", but they are freaked out when someone calls themselves and Atheist. Hell, Bel can easily accept my non-belief in a personal god, but absolutely refuses to let me call myself the "A"-word when we talk about it. It's the word that scares her. Now THAT is some amazing propaganda!
I tend not to use the word atheist because I don't feel it's completely accurate. I don't believe in "God" or "Heaven" or "Satan" or "Hell". All the evidence suggests that these concepts are the creation of mankind--not the other way around. However, I can't say for absolutely certain that there is NO god of any sort at all. And I DO believe that there are aspects of this universe and of existence that we simply can't perceive. So, technically I am an agnostic. But not because I'm afraid to be an atheist...just that I don't have "Faith" in pure atheism. Faith being belief without reason.
But it IS scary how powerfully the word is perceived. For all those people who think words AREN'T dangerous--there's one you can be afraid of.
NO U FAGET BAAWWW I H8 U
lol, kidding.
Sure, it gives hope to some people, but at what cost?
I'm Agnostic myself, dude, so I know exactly where you're comin' from.
I think agnosticism is probably the healthiest attitude. I am totally certain that the Christian, Jewish and Muslim God (who is the same God, by the way) is a complete fabrication evolved by society from older tribal superstitions. That doesn't mean there isn't something out there beyond my perception and intellect. I would be just as wrong to absolutely deny all possibility of higher powers as I would be to just blindly believe in some arbitrary dogmatic system with nothing to back it up.
Go agnostic boy! ^0^
You have a sharp mind, dude. I like how you think. Quite similar to how I perceive things.
^0^
Apart from that, labels... They're the reason political correctness exists. Probably because these 'labels' don't have the same meaning to everyone. At one time, I had an all-night conversation with someone. We agreed on every single concrete example, yet we still disagreed on the main topic. Turns out my definition of the subject was just a tiny bit different from his definition, which made just enough difference for us to disagree on the said topic.
From that perspective, you may want to have a conversation about what's the big problem about atheism according to Bel if you haven't already. It's always nice to know to understand each other even in the details.
Scientists have faith that gravity exists even though we cannot directly measure it, but instead have to measure the effects it has on others.
I have faith that my car will run if I put gas in it, even if I don't have the slightest clue how it works...
Religion is simply faith redirected towards the unknown so as to give reasoning to the unknown.
Religion in itself is not bad, hell most teach good life lessons, but there are people out there that take it too far, believe too much.
Follow the morals, not the scripture.
I like how your Kitten has mastered the Art of Rainbow poopie
If so, that would rock SOO Hard!
The same is true with all science--there is no such thing as absolute proof of anything, if you want to be technical. BUT, there is, at least, evidence to base postulations on. There ARE effects that can be measured and quantified. Science does not require faith--in fact, they are mutually exclusive. (This is, by the way, the very reason "Intelligent Design" is not, and can never be, science.)
But that's a whole other discussion. Atheism IS faith, you're right. It is as unprovable as Fundamentalist Christianity. And my point is that society is so indoctrinated by religion that we can't view the label "atheist" subjectively. The overwhelmingly brainwashed segment of society makes it a label to be hated, or at best, to be disliked.
My point here is that faith IS bad, IF it precludes reason and reality in favor of superstition and ignorance. And I think "morals" are over-rated anyway. People should try ethics instead. It's morality with less baggage. ^0^
But I will say--you are right, that MOST people don't use religion badly to hurt people. But those leaders that DO use it to manipulate people, to create hate and cause distruction--I wish there WAS a hell for them.
But there may be something out there, or inside, that can tap the power to help us through. You call it God and I don't...but at least, as people, we have each other--if we can just learn to get along and be good to eachother instead of petty and selfish. If there is divinity--I think it comes from within, not from without.
I believe in quantum mechanics. It makes predictions that can be experimentally confirmed to 12 decimal place accuracy. I have to take that very very seriously... It doesn't offend theists, either.
OK, just kidding. I love when you chime in--you think just like me, only smarter!
My problem is mostly that, despite the fact that there is absolutely no rational reason to believe in Christianity over any other faith, or non-faith--we're still expected to live by Christian moral codes, we're still expected to treat Christian ideals and pronouncements like they are absolute truth.
If there's no proof or even real evidence, then it's philosophy, or superstition or even mythology--but it isn't "Truth". It MIGHT be Truth, but without anything to back it up, it's just Opinion. And I insist on being able to live according to my own opinions.
(Sorry, since being ordained I tend to be long-winded and preachy.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke
You don't need morality to determine murder is bad. The founders used ethics, not morals, to determine US laws.
Personally, I'm Taoist, but I only use it as a general guideline for how to see things in the world and how to guide myself along the flow of the world accordingly. If there is a God, though, and He does physically come down and make Himself known to all, so much so that even machines and science confirm His physical existence, I'm ready to drop my beliefs and go, "Okay, you're the Boss, and I'll join your club."
It's like how Kevin Smith advocated religion should be held in his movie "Dogma." Through the lines of the unknown 13th apostle, Rufus; "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant."
To which I can only say "Meine Milz, Igel!"
'You are all full of shit, also, 'it' does not have anything to do with words that describe life. When you (guys) finally do, you will believe yourself.
It looks a bit off, but that's the best translation I can give as a Dutch guy. The sentence looks a bit mangled.
Please, next time you scold me in German--include an English translation at the bottom or something. That'd help me alot.
Danka! (Sorry if I misplled that... The sad thing is, I'm from German stock.)
Well, I stand corrected. That's me converted! Oh wait...Who am I supposed to be believing in again? Did he say which God or Faith we were stupid for not accepting unquestioningly?
It sounded really cool in German, though... ^0^
Actually, the Google translation was really easy to understand I just fucked it up for lulz. (even after cross-translating it through Hungarian, Czeck Chinese and several other languages, it still remained infuriatingly comprehensible.)
another great, and quick, easy read.
in my opinion, the book wasn't long enough.
There's plenty of great youtube speeches, discussions, and lectures on the same topic. once you acquaint yourself with it, you'll feel so amazingly confident in the power of sound logic and the volumes and volumes of information available.
We need to stop being so damn polite.
Thanks!
No sorry, fuck you, God doesn't. The Christian God, if his followers and texts are to be believed(Whichever fucking re-written edit or parts each faction chooses to, or not to believe on any particular day given thier mood, what shoes they happen to wear or whatever fucking doctrines they use to justify thier version of reality), the Christian God isthe most callous, manipulative, evil, sadistic, hateful, uncaring miserable bastard in the pantheon of Deities.
Sure, Odin would fry your ass with a fucking lightning bolt, and then laugh about it, but he was honest about not giving a shit. Anyone that's really taking thier religions too seriously needs to watch Erik The Viking. Terry Jones at his very best.
I have never understood how christians and other people of thier general genre can look at pictures of jesus impaled and bleeding to death on a cross and go "You know, this makes me love him so much." It's gross, and I have no desire to see that shit, unless it's on /b/, in which case it makes me laugh my ass off at the callousness of human nature. God tortures his followers mercilessly, has unrealistic expectations of mammals that by design are biologically not much more than walking sex machines, and then tells them they will burn in hell for staring at a nice set of tits, BUT HE LOVES YOU.
Propaganda and indoctrination start at the cradle, and it's no wonder we have so many of these people infesting the world with thier sadistic controlling media. You don't see Jews putting a copy of the Torah in the fucking dresser in every hotel in America, do you? Tell a Jew "I don't worship your god." and he'll say "Yeah? So what? Let's go bowling." Tell a Christian the same thing, and immediately they have to go on telling you alllllll about how you need to find God, bring jesus into your life "because they care about your soul".
Honestly Jesus sounds like he was a cool guy. His followers fucked it all up though. But by Christian Logic, if Jesus was real(Documented, not in dispute), then all of thier Creationism bullshit MUST be true. Uh huh. I had this one freak tell me Dinosaurs were brought from another planet by God. No shit. Dont read too much about dinos in the bible.
Personally, I am very practical about my theism.I dont ask anyone to worship the higher beings I choose to pay homage to in my life, I dont thrust my beliefs on others(And no, posting in a relevant journal entry doesn't count), there have never been any crusades to force peopleto worship my gods and goddesses, and while some people are too stupid to live, I have yet to give in to the urge to set them on fire. As far as I see it, the only difference between $cientology and Christianity is that Christianity was around a lot longer and dueto the nature of the times, there was noone to call "Sennanigans" on that shit back in the day. Considering how the Romans and Egymtians reacted, I'm amazed it survived. At least it shows zealots can be dedicated.
Christianity, much like politicians, rely on the stupidity of the masses to control thought, opinion, and climate. And they promote stupudity(sic), encourage closed minded thinking, because a populace that doesn't think, is not as dangerous. Herd them all into a theistic corner, and think of the control. Anyone remember Jimmy Swaggart? Oral Roberts? People sent these cretins MILLIONS...........all in the name of thier God. Excuse me, what does God need with a starship?
I am a nature spiritualist, I believe in ALL the various gods and Goddesses, but I don't believe they are all worth my praise, mister Burning Bush included. THe wind, the rocks, it is all posessed of a spirit in my experience and way of thinking. I greet Amaterasu when she rises, and bid farewell to Luna as she dips beneath the horizon. I wish the spirits of roadkill a safe journey, and better fortune next go around. I believe in reincarnation. I believe also in Evolution, because I'm not an idiot.
I believe bad things happen to good people for a reason. I believe the innocent get fucked and criminals prosper because looking at Nature without intereference of human bullshit, Life isn't fucking fair or nice sometimes. I believe anyhting in nature is natural.
Atheism is no more a "bad word" than "fuck". It's just ascribed negative conotations by society in general. I am walking through the street and I find a sawbuck. I smile and thank whatever spirit saw fit to blow it my way. Conversely, there's some schlub out there that lost it, and is angry. One persons misery is anothers good fortune. So YOU find a sawbuck, and stuff it in your pocket, and think theres no higher power or whatever at work, who gives a ratfuck?
Who the fuck says you MUST "believe" in anything? Gods, spirits, functional government...all intangibles that may or may not exist. I choose to color my world, and enjoy life more believing in a mother goddess, just as others do believing in Jesus or Allah, or whomever.
Last year I nearly died of appendicitis, I literally looked Death in the face. I walked on the razors edge of life and death, and ou know what? Death is not soemthing I fear anymore. My greatest regret sitting there in the ER delerious from pain, septicemia and hemotoxemia was that I would not be able to tell those I cared for and loved goodbye. I went into resperitory arrest, and woke up the next morning pissing blood and feeling like I got run over by a truck.
I think that if more people truly face thier mortality, it can be a glorious, life affirming, and positive experience. I know I am not the person I was before.
The greatest thing you can achieve in this life is the betterment of someone elses life, be they an animal or a person. That, and Vortec Superchargers, direct port injection, and Siberian Huskies.
And for the record, Kajagoogoo is NOT "oldies". Sometimes I hate getting older. :P
But for all of those who say they are not atheist because they cannot prove there IS/ARE no god/gods, join the club. Even Dawkins isn't going to claim that he can prove the nonexistence of anything. As Penn Gilette says, it's like proving there's no rhinoceros in the trunk of your car. There COULD be. Have you looked lately? What about now? What if I defined "rhinoceros" to be something round and made of rubber? What you call a spare tire, I call a divine miracle, because that's how I've defined it.
So I can accept that atheism is a matter of faith. I cannot prove the nonexistence of any god or gods. It is my belief my faith that no gods exist in any quantity, even one. Nothing so far has arisen to credibly challenge that faith, or shake my belief--to be sure, talking to religious folk hasn't affected it negatively (quite the opposite).
The name of my belief is atheism. No other word will suffice. Anyone who denies me my right to live in accordance with my faith and believe as I wish is committing religious persecution. So there.
But seriously, Bertrand Russel mused once, "I do not believe that I am dreaming, but I cannot prove that I am not. Every thing I see and touch, or experience might be nothing more than figments of my imagination."
That's a scary thought. And I tell you what, if someday I wake up and was dreaming, I am going to be very fucking pissed that I didn't do soemthing about getting laid more.
I don't believe in the teapot, but I can understand the desire to believe in it. And I, too, maintain my right to live as though there was no such teapot, however many people around the world believe rabily in the teapot. Thier belief does not make it exist, but my disbelief does not interfere with their "faith".
And now, all kneel before the Flying Spaghetti Monster--ON PAIN OF DEATH!!!! *sigh*
I am a staunch atheist in that I do not believe in any gods. However, I am open to the possibility and should any compelling evidence of a god find its way to my attentions, I'd be willing to accept it. Contrary to popular belief, 'atheist' does not necessarily mean: absolutely unwilling to accept any evidence for a god whatsoever.
If you like the God Delusion, you might also like:
Letter to a Christian Nation
The Skeptics Annotated Bible
The Atheist Universe
God: the Failed Hypothesis
God is Not Great
I highly recommend Letter to a Christian Nation. It is very concise and powerful.
I'd love to meet such a being, but I doubt I'd be able to worship them or believe in them as divine. I blame Star Trek. Who Mourns for Adonis probably didn't do a thing for my faith.
1. Adaptation. How did we adapt so well to our environment? Easy enough, we're a part of our environment. It's arrogant to assume that we're not part of our ecosystem just because we're so much more clever than all the other animals. Bananas are perfect for us to eat because we wind up spreading the seeds around. Nice deal for the banana tree and for us. It spreads its DNA and thrives, we get food and thrive to spread our DNA. Just because a mud puddle fits so well inside its hole doesn't mean the hole was designed to be the perfect shape to fit the puddle. The mud fits into its environment, just like we do.
2. Unanswerable questions. For example, how does science explain the origin of life? Currently, it doesn't. Just like many other things science is still working on. Just because we don't have the answer doesn't mean that that answer is God did it.
3. The ridiculous. This is very often hostile. Lots of loaded questions, lots of assumptions about one's character or intelligence or reasoning skills. Straw man arguments aren't uncommon. This is usually born from insecurity, maybe nagging doubts about weather or not there really is an afterlife. But believe it or not, that insecurity can be advantageous. It means that somebody so afraid of death will do anything to stay alive and continue the species so that humankind will survive.
Another issue people have with atheists is that they're afraid the big, bad atheist boogieman is going to impose their godless ways on others. This is flat-out projection on the religious person's part. I've found that what most atheists want it to not have religions pushed onto them, not the other way around. We actually believe that a person is entitled to believe in whatever he wants, even if we disagree with him. Many religious people do not accept this fundamental right, and would prefer a world where they don't have to scrutinize their own faith.
I scrutinized my beliefs, and I had to change them.
Boy, I do sure enjoy opening my big, fat trap on this subject.
Agnostics do not believe that there is a god.
Atheists believe that there is not a god.
The reason boiling down to that Agnostics are withholding judgement until we see some evidence, while Atheists are insisting that the lack of evidence is proof of the negative.
I'm comfortable with whatever anyone else wants to believe. The problem comes when they get organized and start insisting that everyone else follow their religion's rules.
Also, I'm a god. I've got the Spore Achievement sticker to prove it. :3
:D
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/.....t_atheism.html
The vast majority of atheists are not making a positive assertion (there can't be a God) but a passive one (I've never seen evidence, so I do not postulate) and that's as far as one need to go. Atheists often say that just like they don't see any reason to even consider the existence of a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster, they needn't consider the existence of God. Sadly, it seems impossible to even say this without the religious hearing it as an attack on their beliefs.
Don't let them set the rules. Don't let them bullying you into being a lone, un-titled person. There's a huge community out here for people like you, and they're trying to convince you were not just people who share a thought, but insane people who have no doubt.
It's the religious who are told not to doubt. An Atheist who doesn't believe he could be wrong is very poor at being a free thinker.
When people ask me why I don't believe in God, it's of course something too complex to explain, but I started down the path from the same point: this universe does not correlate with the god we're taught. It correlates with a lesser god who can't really control the universe and ensure us anything, or an evil god. I think Atheism is the optimistic stance. (Yes, I realize there's a couple other options, too, like a God with no interest in morality and ethics, but I still would put that under the heading of "Gods I don't really want to be real anyway.")
there is no room for people that THINK as well as believe....
Thats why I say I am a PRESBYTERIAN
I do believe in god but I see him as a Distant Being... he's leaving it all up to us to clean up our messes
but thats just me