Veganism does not offends me, if that is the way someone wants to go, then more power to them. What I do not like is someone trying to force his beliefs, whatever they are, on me. Or going the way you do, by pointing fingers and such.

I've always been of the opinion than stopping to eat meat isn't the way to go, mostly because Humans are omnivorous creatures and need meat, it has been proven medically. Secondly, because I think the best way is to force the big meat companies to change their ways overall, be more humane and respectful, and you can do that by going to the medias and the politicians and such.

And, lastly, one could easily point out that eating only vegetables isn't really the best thing for Earth with all the chemical products used to grow the vegetables you are so fond of: pesticides, fertilizer and so on, which ends up polluting the soil, the water and killing the flora and fauna around the crops. Just look up what is happening to the population of bees worldwide, for example.

Thus why I think that the 'stop doing this!' way isn't the way to go. The way to go is to force the big companies to change their ways, to be less greedy and more respectful of Earth as a whole. And that can be achieved by going to the lawmakers and keeping an eye on them to expose their wrongdoings and hit their reps.

Vegetables and fruits can be grown without all the pesticides and fertilizers yourself, and you can buy fair trade and organic produce. Eating meat and using animal products can't be done without harm and/or loss of life happening. Even the most humanely raised "food" animals will still be killed against their wills.

That is an argument that I do not understand, and I do not mean that in a sarcastic or offending way, I really do not get it. 'Animal killed against their wills'? But this is what happens countless times in what little is left of the wilds, when a predator hunts a prey. And it's often even worst than what can be done in butcher shops and such.

The difference between another animal killing to eat and a human killing to eat is that we have the capacity to understand the pain and suffering that the killing causes. Other animals don't understand things like that. Predatory animals kill because they NEED to eat meat, as most of them are strictly carnivores. In this day and age humans don't need meat, we can get just about everything we need from non-animal based foods and vitamin supplements. Just because we are omnivores doesn't mean that we NEED to eat everything that we are capable of eating.

Ok, now I understand your point.

But I will disagree with you on the point that we do not need meat anymore. We have not yet evolved so far from our less civilized ancestors, and, medically, there's still a debate whether a completely meat-less regimen is healthy or not. Besides, and that is a purely personal opinion, I prefer the nice flavor and texture of a good juicy steak over any kind of non-animal based food and vitamin supplements in any form.

Rubbish. Humans are herbivores with some meat-digesting capabilities, just the way canines are carnivores with some plant-digesting capabilities, for purposes of opportunistim.

You may like meat. I like sex. Am I justified in raping? If not, then you are not justified in murdering because you enjoy the flavor of flesh.

The "lions kill gazelle!" argument is irrelevant because lions require meat to survive. Humans do not and our health has been proven to be better on a plant-based diet. If humans needed meat to survive it would be idiotic to be vegan but we do not. If steak and eggs were good for us, it wouldn't drive our cholesterol through the roof and kill us with heart attacks.

I've read medical studies saying that meat contains proteins that cannot be that easily replaced with something else, be it vegetable products or vitamins complements or what have you. As I said, there is not yet enough scientific evidence to point out if we can really have a healthy live by living only on vegetables.

The parallel that you do between liking meat and sex, thus justifying murder and rape, is, at best, silly, and I am going to ignore it.

As for the cholesterol argument, I will counter it with the 'balanced diet' argument. As with many things, eating too much of steaks and eggs is bad for one's body. But a balanced diet, as recommended by doctors worldwide, will keep you healthy. Humans are omnivorous creatures, and need a bit of everything to keep their bodies healthy and sane.

"Need a bit of everything to keep their bodies healthy and sane." Nope. As evidenced by all the healthy and sane vegans living all over the world. If my argument was so silly you'd be able to easily refute it, no?

*Points to all the healthy and sane omnivorous people all over the world.* Point refuted. Thank you. :p

Honestly, none of us have proved our points in anyway, neither you nor me. Proof would be including medical research and other such real facts, which none of us has done. And, given where this is going, I think it'd be a better idea to stop it now.

The only thing I don't like is when veganism is used as a tool of colonialism. not saying either you or jive do this, but I have personally encountered "white vegans" on tumbr who would see traditional cultures destroyed because they can't differentiate between people living in their traditional ways vs people eating factory produced cruel agriculture items. I hate straw-manning, I only bring this up because I have literally received hate-mail because I advocated for my tribe to pick up their old ways of subsistence fishing and hunting (as opposed to using the modern food system, not as opposed to non-meat diets.)

Sorry for the deleted comment, decided I'd rather wait til I've got a moment to sit and actually write a bit more.

it's all cool ^_^

I'm sorry, I totally forgot I made this journal. Anyhow:
I completely respect your point and I believe that most sensible vegans will agree that it is better to see peoples of all cultures hunting or otherwise farming in more humane and culturally traditional ways than to see factory farming and the over-the-top absolutely astonishing abuse found in the industrial flesh market. However, if a culture is based around murder, rape, and exploitation, is it really worth preserving? Does a culture honestly fall apart simply because they choose to no longer participate in cruelty and slaughter?
I am not against killing animals where it is absolutely necessary. I hunt. I have dogs, and as dogs are carnivores (albeit not obligate like felines), I feel it would be immoral to sacrifice their health by feeding them anything other than a meat-based diet. So I do what I consider the least harmful method of harvesting food for them. However, humans do not require meat. We are perfectly capable of living without it, and of doing so without relying on white industry, I might add. Who does it really harm to stop murdering where murder is not required? Should cannibalistic cultures be preserved as well?

For what it's worth, I do not believe Jive is white. My boyfriend is also a vegan PoC.

I can't speak for other cultures, and if they had cruel animal practices, it would be up to elements within that community to stop such practices. If the Anishinaabe has such practices, I for certain would speak against the practices. That's the only culture I can speak for though. I wasn't even aiming this at you, just wanted to lay it down where others might see it and take things into account. I think you, your bf and jive are all pretty awesome peeps and respect your dietary choices and sharing about it even in the face of trolls.

Personally I believe that taking a life where that killing is not necessary is cruel in and of itself even if it is done with effort toward being humane. All sentient beings want to continue their life, all sentient animals fear death. In the face of destruction they cower, they struggle, they want to live. Death is a part of life and that includes killing, but as beings of higher moral understanding, should we not try to kill only when we must?

I highly appreciate your support and I understand your views, I thoroughly admire anyone who wishes to reduce the suffering of animals in any way, even if they don't agree with my personal beliefs!

It's not the veganism itself; it's the sanctimony. People will sort themselves out without being goose-stepped into line with any particular ideology. *shrug*

“If I am to be a voice for animals, then how should I speak? Am I to whisper, when they are screaming in pain? Am I to be calm, when they tremble in fear? Am I to shout for mercy, as their throats are being slit? Tell me how I need to speak, for you to grant them their freedom.”
- Davegan Raza

What of innocent civilians killed in drone attacks, or the women and children killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? There are things far newer and more odious in the world than animals killing other animals for food.

* Proliferation of weaponized drones and weapons of mass destruction
* Preservation of nuclear arsenals far beyond what is needed for mutually-assured destruction
* Corporate citizenship and corporate welfare
* Zionism and attempted theocracy
* Global wealth inequality
* Poverty and famine
* Terrorism

Even the state of animal welfare outside of our factory food systems is shameful.

I do believe that no effort is wasted, and applaud those who are able to adopt a cruelty-free lifestyle, but find it perhaps naive when those who do spew vitriol at those who do not or cannot for various reasons. If even a fraction of the energy spent on attempting to convert the unwilling were poured into solutions to the world's other problems, we'd be better for it as a species.

I'm not sure how human murder is worse than animal murder. Any manner of a living being being raped, beaten/kicked/crushed/thrown, burned, cut open while still conscious, forced into cramped living spaces with far too many others to wallow in their own excrement, and subsequently murdered (in the prime of their life, no less) usually in heinously painful and torturous ways, is something that should be spoken out agains, whether it's human or not. The treatment of animals in this world (and who said I only care about factory farmed animals?) is enough to overshadow the haulocaust, but because animals cannout cry out in our language we do not realize their suffering.

Not sure where I said that any other form of torture and injustice is acceptable. Veganism is about reducing the harm to all living beings, particulary those whose voices go unheard, and that includes people (though I will be the first to admit many vegans fail in that aspect). Factory farming, vivisection and other experimentation, brutality in events such as horse/dog racing and rodeos and bullfighting and so on, merely fall to the forefront because these practices involve detestable cruelty as wretched as any occuring in the world here in a place where people falsely claim to be the most civilized people on earth who would never be so abusive.

The vast majority of vegans I know, including my boyfriend and myself, are just as concerned in human welfare as the welfare of nonhuman animals.

I'm not really making the assertion that one kind of murder is worse than another. What I'm getting at is that there are problems which are much newer and goals that are much closer that might be solved and surpassed by some of the effort that is put into evangelizing those who are unwilling to change their ways.