If you're acting like a nonhuman animal, you're sinning. That pretty much encompasses the bulk of it. Everything else is just making you feel shame for even attempting to think outside the box when it comes to whatever religion you belong to.

Nothing is simple. Humans are extremely complicated and convoluted - and the idea of sin can't be put into simple terms. It's the product of Religion, thousands of years old. Just remember that everything came from something - "the seven deadly sins" didn't just appear all on their own.

Humans like to think that they're complex, but they're no more complicated than anything else. Humans just have a habit of making things seem more complex than they really are.

If you can only see 10% of the pieces of a puzzle and you try to fit them together they make up a very complicated and convoluted picture. But if you can see 100% you'll notice that it's just an apple :D

When you put together a jigsaw puzzle like you allude to, the myriad pieces don't melt together and vanish and leave behind a solid, coherent object. The pieces are still there. 300 years ago, humans were still flipping all the pieces right-side up. Today, we've fit together a lot of pieces and they begin to show a neat picture, but we are still far, far from seeing a whole apple.

Go into ANY scientific field, and all people in there will tell you that we don't even know half of what's out there, and we're able to prove even less.

It's only in the past 25 years that Humans know that we know very little. It was a big step we needed to take to proceed towards understanding everything. That's what we do - we want to observe, understand, predict, and control (in that order) everything around us. We want to catagorize everything, mark it down and learn everything we can about it. That's what makes humanity so wonderful - that we know that everything, including us, is complex and convoluted. Half the fun is untangling the mess and making sense of it - the other half is marveling at how increadible it all is. 50% jigsaw puzzle, 50% interpreting what we see.

A good example of how far we need to go - Give or take a little bit, but most physicists agree that we only know/understand about 4% of the universe.

complexity in simplicity or simplicity in complexity? the chicken or the egg? *blows smoke ring*

The egg came first. Something that was /just not quite a chicken/ laid a chicken egg. Evolution. A teensy tiny itty bitty eeny weeny step.

Deep stuff. You been reading Dante's Inferno recently or what?

You got a point there, but what I'm trying to find out, and have often debated about, is whether there are some universal sins. Sins that persist throughout any reality, any existance, any species!

It boils down to a hunt to whether or not there is a true, undeniable essence of evil in the universe.

Analyzing sin is one thing.

Analyzing evil... now it gets tricky.

Do you believe in evil?

~Otaku-Man

No I don't believe in evil. Even when you hear about a psychopath murdering children, he's not doing it because of evil influence. He's doing it because his psyche is out of balance.

True sins are universal. They apply to every human, animal, plant and atom.

So which sins are true sins then? And as you pointed out, sins can be corrected. They can be forgiven, by yourself, by others, and by purgatory.

Sins are also based on rules and laws of life and society. Do not kill because people can't come back from the dead. Do not eat pork, for it might kill you through disease. Do not commit adultery, cause that leads to all kinds of drama and hardship.

But if the rules were different? People could come back from the dead (reverse the law of nature), or adultery was commonly accepted (reverse the law of society), or eating pork didn't cause disease (reverse the law of just cook the damn meat, GOD!) ?

These would no longer be sins then. However, the sins might change.

EVIL, however, is breaking whatever rules are established, knowing how they affect society, yourself, and the world and universe around you, and still committing the sins.

These evil deeds may be balanced out by some form of karma to neutralize the effect, but the fact of the matter is that they are still evil.

True evil is evil committed not out of a need (steal bread to feed family) or out of insanity (mental condition that hampers judgement, or psychological trauma).

It's like the rich kid that goes evil. Good family, wealthy parents, appears humble and generous and is well behaved throughout childhood. After inheriting the family fortune, they donate to charities, marry, go out socially, and appear to be decent people.

All the while, they maintain a secret buried underneath this exterior which contains a dark and twisted side.

Take the Austrian man who, for almost two decades, kept his daughter locked away in a secret cellar, fathered 6 kids with her, all while fooling his wife, other family, and everyone in the neighborhood.

It took an extreme amount of planning, genius, and sheer cruelty to pull something like that off.

THAT is evil at it's finest. No insanity. No need. Just pure selfish, EVIL!

~Otaku-Man

So which sins are true sins then? And as you pointed out, sins can be corrected. They can be forgiven, by yourself, by others, and by purgatory.

Sins are also based on rules and laws of life and society. Do not kill because people can't come back from the dead. Do not eat pork, for it might kill you through disease. Do not commit adultery, cause that leads to all kinds of drama and hardship.

But if the rules were different? People could come back from the dead (reverse the law of nature), or adultery was commonly accepted (reverse the law of society), or eating pork didn't cause disease (reverse the law of just cook the damn meat, GOD!) ?

These would no longer be sins then. However, the sins might change.

EVIL, however, is breaking whatever rules are established, knowing how they affect society, yourself, and the world and universe around you, and still committing the sins.

These evil deeds may be balanced out by some form of karma to neutralize the effect, but the fact of the matter is that they are still evil.

True evil is evil committed not out of a need (steal bread to feed family) or out of insanity (mental condition that hampers judgement, or psychological trauma).

It's like the rich kid that goes evil. Good family, wealthy parents, appears humble and generous and is well behaved throughout childhood. After inheriting the family fortune, they donate to charities, marry, go out socially, and appear to be decent people.

All the while, they maintain a secret buried underneath this exterior which contains a dark and twisted side.

Take the Austrian man who, for almost two decades, kept his daughter locked away in a secret cellar, fathered 6 kids with her, all while fooling his wife, other family, and everyone in the neighborhood.

It took an extreme amount of planning, genius, and sheer cruelty to pull something like that off.

THAT is evil at it's finest. No insanity. No need. Just pure selfish, EVIL!

~Otaku-Man

It's still not evil. As you said yourself, selfishness. Selfishness isn't evil. Only actions can be evil.

Yes, but when you take selfish action, then that selfishness manifest into evil.

We all have selfish desires, but acting on them, knowing that it's evil, knowing that it's wrong, knowing that it violates nature, society, and everything.

And STILL doing it.

That's evil.

And it also doesn't involve being misguided like in the case of Death Note.

(But then again, absolute power corrupts absolutely.)

Anyway, selfishness IS evil IF it is a selfish desire put into action, violates against law and/or nature, AND the selfish person committing said selfish act is aware and conscious of what they are doing and the harm it is causing. First time may not be evil as it might just be an accident, curiosity, or other possible reasoning which COULD be made understandable (such as a murderer killing someone for a grievance against them done long ago, in essence, revenge)

But to keep doing it, for no other reason other than your own selfish reasons.

That's evil.

And as you said, sin is often done to fulfill an emptiness of some kind. You might argue that repeat offenders of selfish acts that violate law and/or nature are trying to fill an emptiness, thus giving a reasoning to their actions which makes them not evil. They'd still be a sin, but they would not be evil.

But what about those that KNOW that their actions are not filling an emptiness that is filled from something else? They are aware that they are empty, aware that there is something out there that can fill that emptiness and make them whole? But they choose NOT to go that route?

I would think that would be evil.

~Otaku-Man

As you've said, the action is evil, the person is not. If someone was to kill a thousand babies because they were convinced that the babies would eat his skin would he be an evil person? or would only the actions be evil?

If someone were to feel that the only way to experience love was through murder would that person be evil, or would their actions be?

Once you label something as evil you stop caring about the person or their motivations. It puts a stop to examining the truth and humanity of things. The concept of evil is very simple and reassuring, the idea that evil doesn't exist in people is frightening because it makes the world seem much less straight forward.

If someone were to feel that the only way to experience love was through murder would that person be evil, or would their actions be?

Both.

Although that there might be a case of insanity, which is not evil. But like I said, if they are sane, and still feel that way, then total evil there.

~Otaku-Man

If they feel that way then by definition they are insane :3

Remember that you can be completely rational in thought while still being completely insane.

I'm not sure if you can. But then again, I guess that all depends on a definition of insanity as put by legal terms.

Mental retardation?
Fit of rage where you didn't know what you were doing?

At thise points of insanity, rational thought is thrown out the window. But to commit sins, crimes, and evil deeds while RETAINING rational thought...

...well that's just damn evil.

Plus, evil can be measured on a scale:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Evil

~Otaku-Man

Very deep journal, very different than the normal dribble people write down.

Now I'm a firm believer in good versus evil, but there are many degrees of evil, some are simply non-good, while others are non-just, and others are much more deepseated. Evil seems to always have an exception...

Now if you believe in deontology, there are no exceptions allowing for non-good acts...but I'm closer to a utilitarian where things are circumstantial, and often the ends justify the means. The greatest happiness (or good) for the least unhappiness (non-good)

"Humans like to think that they're complex, but they're no more complicated than anything else. Humans just have a habit of making things seem more complex than they really are.

If you can only see 10% of the pieces of a puzzle and you try to fit them together they make up a very complicated and convoluted picture. But if you can see 100% you'll notice that it's just an apple :D"

I disagree. Yes we are still animals, but whether or not one believes in the special quality of the human soul, we are physiologically different. Our brains are much more complex than our mammalian cousins and we are capable of expressing higher thinking, which I believe makes us special, if not more complicated.

Basically, I agree with everything you've stated in your journal, I'm studying religion in university as my major and from what I've learned from my own research aswell as textbooks, reading the bible and other religious texts( never read the Qu'ran), etc. I've drawn many of the same conclusions.

I wish I knew you personally so we could further discuss this matter, as I think we'd have a good conversation.

I can't tell if you replied to me or Mifmaf.

Anyway, I think human beings are a bit more complex, but I also think we sometimes make things more complex than they ought to be sometimes.

Still, just as good and evil isn't black or white, I still think that while there's still the entire area of grey that exists between the two extremes, I do believe that the extremes exist.

So not only do I believe in absolute evil, but also in absolute good!

I study religion only so much as the battles of good and evil, and also focus on the demonic and monstrous since while good is a known acceptance, proving evil is much more difficult.

And that's a very interesting challenge to undertake.

~Otaku-Man

Eh...not Christian, but whatever.

How very Universalist of you. :3

That's... Incredibly deep and thoughtful. Makes a lot of sense, too.
It seems as though with that interpretation, humans can be seen as having a need to cling to an anthropocentric point of view and try to build up a wall between themselves and the other animals who appear to be more in-tuned with their physicality than any sort of spiritualism. Humanity, meanwhile, thinks of itself as higher up because of these concepts. This could be seen as a positive or negative thing depending on the observer.

Personally I'm in the camp that sees pretty much everything as equally important; people consider themselves much higher than dirt, but without it we would have no food.

There is an interdependence between everything in the universe. If it weren't for a speck of dust in the far reaches of the universe we might have 3 arms. However we do have a very unique property in that we are "thinkers". We are a creative influence on the universe though we are also a product of it. The universe itself is fluid in its state but the presence of thought is not and is vital to existence.

You've seen the butterfly effect?

I wish I could fav Journals. This is very cool. And does make sense and has its very good points. Ive been reading some of the responses too and I commend you on your believe that there are no evil people, just evil actions, which is true in its way and is a very good way of seeing the world. =3

"A sin is simply the outward expression of a spiritual need unfulfilled. If our spiritual needs are not being addressed we will engage in our physical survival needs. Those just happen to be the needs for eating, sleeping, reproducing. If you expand those you'll see that the 7 deadly sins are exactly that. Envy, greed and anger are all expressions of the same drive to reproduce through the elevation of one's status. Sloth, Gluttony, Lust and pride are self explanatory."

So in other words, The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is nothing more then sin. I find it interesting that God (I assume the God of the Bible right?) would make the world ruled by this for so long...

I should mention that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is actually not a moral fact. It's real interesting how many people seem to think it is. But I cannot really blame them. Who remembers World War 2 anymore?


"Commiting sins do in a way damn you, but not through the action of the sin, only through the un-fulfillment of the spiritual need related to it. If you do not address your spiritual needs you will always feel empty and will attempt to alleviate that feeling through the action of sins."

Ahh, there we in a way agree, but at the same time completely contradict each other. If you do not adress your spiritual needs, then you will feel empty yes... but, you seem to be assuming that belief in a Super Natural Entity without a shred of evidence, or logic, is spiritually fulfilling.

I'm curious why belief in a Dictator would give spiritual fulfillment over belief in humanity, life, and existence?


"Forgiveness: You simply need to understand and forgive yourself of your sins and you can move forward. That's all it takes to escape a self destructive spiral."

^_^ Yes! I wish I hadn't typed as I read, it strikes me as the real goal in your journal was to explain to the religious, the point made just now. I'm sorry if I upset you by posting this but I tend to not delete or edit things very often. It's more like a real conversation if I just post what I type. ^_^"

Despite how silly reilgion truly is, posts like this make me smile because they actually do GOOD. ^_^

Any belief in an external supernatural entity is idolatry. Thus the worship of jesus, or an external god is also contradictory to spiritual fulfillment.

Belief through faith is ultimately hollow. Belief through knowing is truly fulfilling.

I think I need to unwatch you, just so I can watch you again. ^_^ That way you'll know you've been oficially FAVED!

So it basically boils down to discernment. what is truth and knowledge and what is false/fiction.

Are you speaking from a judeo-christian standpoint or in broad spiritual terms?

Broad spiritual terms within context of judeo-christian and islamic perspectives.

Sin is a jewish word that only exists in the jew's microbial view of the universe. Everything that we need to know for life is in our own hearts, ask yourself and you will know. As for punishments for wrong doings, they are either from ourselves for feeling like monsters or from our peers leaving us. There is no greater punishment than to be alone: in the time between lives, if one so chooses, they do not have to acknowledge you and by their doing that you cannot see them, hear them, etc it is as if they are not there and no matter how much you wish to see them they will never hear you. This is the only hell. Without any physical toys or distractions to entertain one's self, each other in this moment is all we have.
Do not trouble your heart and mind with "sins" that don't make sense to you. Instead of asking if something is a "sin" ask, "who does this hurt?" If the answer is no one then you aren't doing something wrong.

Interesting train of thought. Recently I have had a relevent experience in my life that applies to this sort of idea.

A friend of mine has been having very little luck with the fairer sex for some inexplicable reason he believes that it is from "bad karma". To an extent he is correct. My friend suffers from a tunnel vision version of beauty, where he won't consider dating anything else that varies from what he percieves as liking (which is just a specific race) It doesn't matter what the person is actually like as a person, he will only try to date someone based of a set of physical criteria. If he finds out the perfect woman for him in any way shape or form says that she smokes, he won't date her. In short part of his problem is that he seems to have impossibly high standards for the person that he is looking for but she must accept him as he is. Anyway, now that you know a little about what I percieve the reasons for his romantic issues are, I shall continue. He has decided that he is not a nice person and therefore is blaming Karma. His solution try to be nicer so that the universe will reward him and let him actually attract a mate.

To an extent this will work, but he is not trying to change who he is. He is attempting to "be a better person" on a superficial level so that it will benefit him. Can true forgiveness/ happyness be found through the Path of greed, for this is what it seems like he is doing as I see it. In the end I don't think it will make him happier, it will only drive him nuts, because the change honestly seems like an act to me.

I guess my point is this; to seek "forgiveness" is all fine well and good, but if the reasons for seeking said forgiveness are based off a "sin" (for lack of a better word) Then no matter how hard you try to seek the peace you crave you probably won't find it.

Anyway; just my passing thoughts on the subject. Thanks for putting up with my lengthy response and posting such a thought provoking post in the first place

-Elven

Well those instincts keep me alive and any rational being understands that I cannot eat God, if such a thing exists. However, in a time when Gold was the powder that fed the soul maybe you could survive on faith alone without resorting to more primal methods but it is very hard to get your hands on that very vital substance at present.

At any rate, I am one of no faith, so sin has no relevance. If it cannot be proved then it is naught but speculation though I will readily admit that science itself has yet to prove a great many things to be true or false as of yet. (which is somewhat scary if you really sit down and think about what all they have yet to get a handle on) I also have a strong philosophical disdain for any God who must demand jealous worship, the killing of those who do not worship It, and the suffering of people for any reason to be then called "Perfect". Sounds far too petty to be perfect to me.

As for Jesus, I do not know that we CAN know all the facts about him, but I will gladly say that the vast majority of what he said and how he lived, in my opinion, feels quite right to me. He called for us to be brothers and sisters with each other and to evolve beyond prejudice and dominion in favor of love and from what I have seen I KNOW we would be a superior species if we could follow that example. The problem is coaxing the Dominion lovers away from their nectar.

Summary, Old Testament God is evil and petty, "Father" according to Jesus is far superior as is the teachings of said prophet, but ultimately I am nihilist so while I might be optimistically Taoist at times I mostly only believe in what has been proved or can be logically reasoned which means in all likelihood we are in for quite the final end.

There is evil in everyone. And unlike some of our politicians would lead us to believe, you cannot defeat evil. Or you can, but it would require the removal of the entire human race. As for animals, they can know right from wrong, but good and evil i doubt. Now for the Bible, many proclaim it to be the end all be all and think its infallible when in fact it was written by man and you have to apply the context to the situations then, not now. Some truths/laws do correlate to anytime.

For your comment about being alone. I would rather be alone and be comfortable with my faith than with a society that is selfish and ignorant. Which runs way to rampant now days with many organized religions. I believe in God but i belong to no church.

Mmm, I'd amend that a bit to spiritual or biological drive. But mostly sin is simply a label tacked on to behaviors by the spiritual leaders of the era to keep you from doing things that don't benefit the church. Not gonna get more Christian babies by donating manjuice to Kleenex, and it's hard to donate to your tax-sheltered place of worship if you're heaving after improperly refrigerated shellfish.

All that aside, Yahweh was a pretty selfish, jealous, greedy, prideful, angry fellow in the book that touts him so highly. I mean, look what he did to that poor Job guy, as well as his own kid. Not very nice at all! What business has he got telling folks how to behave? These deities, let me tell you. All "do as I say, not as I do." Pfft.

As many of the "God of Abraham" believers can state, the first sin happened with the deciding to bite into and chew and swallow the forbidden fruit.

Sin happens not just because there is a void. It can also happen if there is a PERCEIVED void.

To continue a thought by SilentWolf, you'd not only have to remove the human race from the equation, but humanity, free will and free thought.

i am a somewhat lapsed Roman Catholic but i still believe in the basics of Christianity and i know that there are key points to any true faith:

Love all, and do not harm any.
Love self, and do not harm self.
Respect all.
Respect self.

It is better to make peace with God and acknowledge you messed up and own up ... than to falsely ask forgiveness and expect it immediately.

Cool stuff. Don't forget that like the Greeks, the idea of humans being rational and able to express that rationality through controlling their "appetites."

TWISI, sins are basically a "Do not do" list. They have the purpose of keeping communities together. These rules are pretty much made up within these communities, so you get weird sins like "Women may not enter holy grounds" just because that was a common notion within a group of people at some point in time. Then there are sins that are more common sense, such as "Thou shalt not kill", which then tend to gather universal acceptance. The golden rule effect.

What they are basically is a way to make you feel bad about something that is regarded to be bad for the whole. They're made up to serve a specific function within a specific group of people. The more absurd sins usually die off due social evolution, while the universal rules stick on. But sometimes that's not the case. For example, the notion of gay being sin should've died off long ago, but it just happens to be written down in a holy book, giving it an overly expanded lifetime.

Just my two cents.

I would call sin more of a violation of moral principle, rather than an expression of an unfulfilled spiritual need.

I love hoe people like to rule out evil, as if it doesn't exist, and pass it off as an alternate state of mind.

One can forgive himself all he likes, but that doesn't actually fix anything. It just makes you feel better about the crap you do.

for serious. I have to wonder how ego-centric a philosophy which does not contain moral hazards can be. How do we mitigate it if everyone subscribed to a philosophy where all our desires were completely relatable on a person-to-person level? I know I can't relate with someone who has an epic compulsion to, I dunno, eat his own excrement. Where does the line exist between unfulfilled desire and mental illness anyway?

Here's another funny way to look at it.

Imagine sin = shit.

If shit was on you, you would want to clean it off (or at least I would hope you would). You would feel bad if you got it on you.

Say, by some horrible twist of the mind, you wanted to eat that shit. You can tell yourself it's not shit, or you can forgive yourself for eating the shit, but it isn't going to change the fact that you just ate shit, and that it's BAD for you, and gross.

Eh, I just interpret sin based on my views of right and wrong. I don't like other people telling me what I'm doing is bad, I'd rather come to that conclusion on my own.

Hmm..pretty interesting view on sin.

For many people, "sin" is the "fun" stuff God doesn't allow us to do just because he says we shouldn't for no reason whatsoever. <:(

Buuut...there ARE reasons why God labeled some things as sin. If you notice, ALL sin can hurt you in one way or another. <:' Wether it hurts our body mentally, emotionally, and yes, physically. God wants us not to sin for our own good and betterness. <:) He loves us so much so we don't send ourselves to an early grave. <:3

And sin too, can keep us from him. God HATES sin. >:( But LOVES the sinner with unconditional love! <:3
It's like going to a fancy wedding, and then trying to go there with an ink stain on your dress or tuxedo! <:' I bet they wouldn't let you in with it. <:' That's the same way with God and sin in Heaven. <:3 Only Jesus' precious blood can wash it away! <:D