Shame, but you'll do what you have to. A lot of good artists are leaving.

Shame indeed. But I know a victim of child abuse. It is not pretty. This whole topic and its general acceptance gives me too much chills.

I was one.

My honest condolences

<3

Yeah...why does all the good artists leave? and why the hell does peoples put drama in here? Hell, this is a friendly place to be, no?

Eh, I am not interested in drama. Announcing a leave and it's reason is simply done out of fairness to all the friends here. THat aside, my descision is based on personal views on the current happenings.

Eh, I am not interested in drama. Announcing a leave and it's reason is simply done out of fairness to all the friends here. THat aside, my descision is based on personal views on the current happenings.

It's interesting seeing all these artists making journals announcing their leave over a decision that hasn't even been made (Thought dear gods I wish it would be so this Drama Llama can finally die).

So? As was the argument with children porn, nobody forces you to read it.

No, it's just a shame to see so many artists I respect leave.

I can symphazise, but it really is a personal thing. Nothing that could be resolved with rational arguments.

I think I get where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree, but you're entitled to feel how you may. Was nice while you were around, I guess I'll catch you on DA whenever I go back to it ^^'

Do that, by all means. I like your stuff quite a bit, it's really a pity.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Same happened on Devart a while back, with many of the artists I watched. So many people came to Furaffinity to get away from DA's supposed crappiness, and now everyone is leaving here as well D: Kinda sucks.

Yeah, there's just no settling with these art communities.
I left DA because the admins were deleting my clean art because it was "furry"; Left Sheezy cause they deleted my gallery almost entirely, and now on FA everyone's jumping ship because the admins decided to play with fire.

Actually I do not have so much a problem with archives that actually have principles, as crappy as they may appear. This also is the reason why I never left DA even though a lot of my stuff got deleted.

I have a problem with archives that waste my time. I am putting time and participation into a community and if they're going to throw it to waste without valid reason, then I have no further interest in continuing that participation.
Put basically, they don't want what I draw, so I simply won't post ^..^

I see your point, but alas, I never cared much about that. Then again I do not take my art seriously at all. It is a nice hobby, but that's it. Way too many people define their ego over their art.

I take my art seriously (I'd like to go Industry with it). It's the internet that I view more as a hobby and don't take too seriously ^..^
I view it more like the time I would spend posting an image that's going to get taken down anyway could be better spent doing more productive things. That and I don't feel the need to flaunt every picture I draw :P

Fair and square attitude tehre, and much better then all those ppl that define their self esteem over their art. =)

Yeah, I've noticed the same. Guess it comes from people almost entirely devoting their lives to art, so when that's threatened, they get incredibly angsty.

Really? I'm in a number of art communities and the ones that specialize in artists that are actually trying to go somewhere with their art have the least drama I've seen anywhere on the net. Tends to be the anime and furry artists that get really angsty, as far as I've seen ^^' That or artists in their teens ;P

On what grounds did they delete your gallery on Sheezy? I stopped going there because the site was never up.

The allowed adult art, then after a few months while everyone was gone to a convention they decided not to allow it and deleted anything mature and up. They pretty much became a clone of DA so I didn't bother posting anything else there.

Ah yes I remember that, I was away at a convention too and I remember everyone getting pissed cuz there weren't enough computers for everyone to cast their vote against it.

Yeah, I remember you mentioning in your journal on DA how they were deleting your stuff. As good as it would be to find somewhere that could just be settled in happily, it seems inevitable that there will always be problems arising sooner or later. Kinda sucks, since it means you have to go all over the place to view work of artists you admire.

I don't think its so much that the decision has not been made yet *and for the record as of now the motion to allow cub art is in the lead on the poll* but its the fact that there is such a strong opposition to banning it, thus making the rest of us think that this site is full of supporters for art of a pedophilic nature. It doesn't sit well with a lot of us, so we choose to go elsewhere.

The sad thing is that people are using the poll as a guage for that in the first place though. It's inaccurate since a lot of people that are voting "yes" are not doing it because they support child porn but because they support freedom of expression in art, regardless of what shape the lines on the paper form. As always happens in drama wars like this though, everyone jumps to conclusions and assumes the worste.

In my opinion they should have left it be. Sadly though, they brought it to question and now a lot of good people are leaving before anything's been decided.

I agree here, actually. True or not, that poll indicated a huge support for child porn. What percentage there now actually supports childporn or free speech is debateable.
But then again I never conisered the argument "free speech" for stuff like this valid anyways. There have to be lines. Without that poll this question would have never been existent.


All that aside, FA had the right rules in place. Not enforcing them but instead now most possibly lifting them is a huge mistake and will make this whole archive look bad. Not only that, as you said yourself, a lot of good artists are leaving, and FA will be left with child porn. It is a no win situation.

That's for the most part my feelings on it. The rules were in place and it's done nothing but cause more severe problems by bringing it into debate. It's a lose-lose situation and a lot of damage has already been dealt. They really should have left it alone.

I don't like, appreciate, or want to see Cub art. But in the interests of keeping this an open community I voted yes. This is not because I believe cub art isn't terrible... But because there is no definition of what cub art is in the first place.

Do sonic characters count? Sonic characters don't bug me at all and they are reportedly underage. That's just one example.

I believe that a large portion of the people who voted yes did not do so because they support cub art, but rather because they do not support moderation of artistic content in this sense.

"But then again I never conisered the argument "free speech" for stuff like this valid anyways. There have to be lines."

I need to address freedom of speech here:
That's the messy problem with freedom of speech and expression. It means that people can say or create whatever kind of expression they like. This basically means that there can be no lines drawn when it comes to this freedom. As soon as lines are drawn it removes someone's freedom. "Oh, you can say whatever you want except for ____" Of course laws exist which tell us what we cannot do. But in general those laws revolve around the idea that if you are not impeding on someone else's freedoms then it's ok.

That said, there is nothing which implies that this site should enforce freedom of speech or expression or allow cub porn. This site is not the only venue for people to express themselves, if someone really wants their "message" to get out to the masses they can make their own site or use an existing one which allows that.

So this isn't a free speech issue really... I mean, it might be portrayed that way. But because free speech is not an obligation here, the real point is that moderators have to decide if they want to draw a line and accept only certain types of content... Or if they want to have this site accessible to everyone for any purpose. It's a lot like a free speech issue, but the difference is that the moderators choosing one direction or another won't affect individual people's abilities to do those things... Just their ability to post them on this site.

Now that is a sensitive topic. I come from a country where the experiment of free speech lead to terrible consequencves, if you ever studied the history of the Weimar Republic, so I am not that radical when it comes to the expression of free spech. Imho it invited too much crap in the long run, even though the basic principle is a very honrable one.

Ah, I understand now. I come from Canada which is generally considered a very free country as far as rights to protest and the like. We could stand outside our government's buildings and protest them as long as we do not impede traffic or other activities and as long as it remains non violent without fear of arrest or being silenced.

Anyway, my purpose here with these messages is to address your view that a vote for yes meant a vote for cub art... Because I can guarantee a lot of people from the US or Canada were voting yes for reasons more related to maintaining an open community and much less related to the actual matter being discussed.

Thanks for reading my comments and responding with a level head. There's too much drama these past few days.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd risk my life for the rights to express my opinions. I just say there are situations where expressing opinions is worth it....and there are not.

agreed.

I should mention I'm no adamant supporter of posting cub art here. I'm just confused as to why it's such a huge issue all of a sudden.

I voted yes, but would not care one way or the other to the outcome. If we end up losing a lot of good artists (as seems to be occurring) I'd rather the administrators realized that and simply chose the better option.

I mean, cub artists aren't usually very good anyway. Not that I look for that sort of material, but it's in fchan's /ah and I'm never impressed by it.

Good question. Pll should have known that this isse doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Giving the cub artists the edge now is disturbing, harms the gallery both in a morale and a very practical way, as other artists are leaving. As I pointed out before, good artits are leaving and FA will be left with child abusement. Imho not the most positive exchange.

I completely agree.

Since Fchan is about art (or is it? who knows) you would assume that they should cater not to the fetishists, but to the best artists.

If we had some really excellent artists who did cub porn it might be a different issue. But we don't. The good artists don't do cub porn, they do other fetishes, sure... But there just aren't any really quality cub artists which I have observed on fchan or anywhere really... Now If someone with more experience in that section could prove me wrong then the issue might be different...

But yes, basically we lose a bunch of good artists and get a bunch of crappy un-polished cub art in their stead. Lose-Lose.

It's not even the subject that I'm talking about here. I don't like viewing crappy art in general. My watch list probably reflects that, I've got pretty high standards and a specific taste to go with it. I can't see any actual benefit to the furry art community in this case by allowing cub porn. If it weren't forcing artists out then it wouldn't matter... But as time goes on and I see more artists leaving it's making me wonder why this issue is being brought up when there is actual talent at stake here.

That is actually what I am wondering about as well. And this also leaves me wondering why then ppl vote "for" that stuff. All those gents and ladies couldn't have been so naive to think that everybody will just accept that, now, could they?

Well, it's tough. I mean, I voted "for" it because I didn't realize how many of the good artists would leave.

I started this as a moral dilemma question. I'm for open content where it makes sense.

But if it's actually forcing out the very people this site should cater towards it's clear that there is an issue. This entire thread of thought is partially so that you are aware that society isn't as terrible as the poll indicates.

I hope you see my view on this matter and understand that there are others like me who voted "for" this thing even though we despise it. It might sound weird, but hopefully it makes sense seeing this entire line of thought. The polls do not indicate a large number of cub enthusiasts and should not be read that way. ;)

Yeah, I certainly won't blame all of the yes crowds, even though I personally think giving freedom of speech and artistic expression priority over childabsument is wrong.

But done is done, nothing much can be changed about it now anymore, so we have to deal with it the way it is.

You've just summed up exactly how I feel about this issue. Thank you.

np. it is a sad thing that not more people think in those lines.

Sorry to see you go, Silber, and knowing you're making that decision based on incomplete knowledge and presumptions of a future event, but I'd rather people stuck their words when they have such good reasons to do so. :(

> All that aside, FA had the right rules in place. Not enforcing them but instead now most possibly lifting them is a huge mistake and will make this whole archive look bad.

Has anyone actually stated that a near-status-quo solution is not actually possible?

That poll is, in my opinion as stated therin, hopelessly polarising and the "ban all mature (not just adult) depicitions of anything that could conceivably be taken to be an immature character" option is also impossible both to draw a clear line or, and to moderate (given that the hounds will be unleashed on anything that might be deemed to be borderline).

> Not only that, as you said yourself, a lot of good artists are leaving, and FA will be left with child porn. It is a no win situation.

*nods*. If people wish to make it a no-win situation and not to speak up in calm, reasoning voices, then indeed it is a no-win situation.

Kindest regards & Best wishes to you,
David/u2k

Your critique in honor, but I did speak up when the topic arouse.

Please let your presumptions about the motives of said artists at home. I do not wish this gallery any ill, I just stated the situation the way it is.

Everybody has to think about themselves to what is acceptable, and what not. I did that and now act accordingly. You may not like that, but the same way members here have to accept the results of that poll you guys have to accept the way ppl react to that.

This whole cub porn stuff is not settled with rational argument, but at times pretty personal.

*prr* Thanks for the reply, silber.

That stupid poll is /not/ just "cub porn" vs. "no cub porn" (whatever that means to various people).

Sometimes people need to continue to speak up, more than once or twice, especially those who do so in a calm voice. Thank you for doing so.

No, there is no obligation to "accept" the results of the poll, especially when it is hopelessly polarising and badly worded (IMHO).
As it currently stands, the options are either "accept everything" or "ban anything that could conceivably be taken to be an immature character in any mature context" (as stated)
e.g. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/273404/ = must be deleted. Agreed?
*
That option also leads to artists leaving and the creation of groups of people out to witch-hunt any possible violation and insistance on clear-cut lines on what's OK and what's not, when that's impossible to do so...

Trust that makes sense, anyhow.

*nods and agrees strongly on your "personal" comment, too*

I agree about the badly worded polariasation. But that is something we have to deal with the way it is now. Dond is done, after all.

That said, I am no advocate about repeated topic discussions. One a topic is decided, one way or another, it should stay that way. If not, the whole gallery, Forum , whatever, looses reputation and consisty. In that way FA already lost, I fear.

I won't go into details of what all should be allowed or banned now. I for example have no problem with a pic the way you linked here, for example. I love children, I love cubs, they are cute and adorable. I just hate what some ppl see in them and how they make even the mentioning of the cub a big problem for the rest of us who do not have a sexual interest in children. And when pictures are more then just subtile in their showing of certain topics, then this line I personally set for myself is crossed. For some people that may be a community problem, but I just speak for myself, my stance on it, my opinion on it. And as I said before, I act to what principles I define to myself.

This said, it actually does not matter to me how this all is solved. That is the admins task. But as I said in another post, The conidionts under which I joined here, acceptable to my opinion and tolerance levels, are not intact anymore.

*nod nods* Appreciate your p.o.v. and no problems with that, silber.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts in polite discussion and I'm certainly /listening/ to those, here.

Walk gently, friend, wherever your paws take you. :)

Intend to, and thanks =)

But the thing is, lots of us /are/ speaking up but our voices are drowned out by the shrieking and screaming going on over at that thread of doom you have in the forums. I even wrote Dragoneer a PM, even though I know he probably doesn't have time to read it right now and I'm just an individual.

We're not WISHING to make it a no win situation, the inaction of the FA staff is already doing that for us =/ Seriously, things were fine until this issue even became a question.

Heh... can't exactly say I'm enjoying that thread, either, but it helps to try to reduce the heat being vented there rather than have another few dozen explosions (including complaints of censorship) elsewhere, as happened when Dragoneer threadstopped that.

Well, as it currently stands we have a two-option poll with a three-outcome result (lose-lose-lose). Not a bad trick, that... :( i.e. Even if things remain unchanged, some people have already left due to 'violated trust' or some such nebulous yet understandable concept.

> Seriously, things were fine until this issue even became a question.

Yep. I'm still trying to read back to see exactly what happened whilst I was away... Badly handled all-round, I'm sure; not just admin-side, or community-side exclusively. :?

Oh, and what "action" were you looking for, perhaps?

Thanks for the feedback/calm discussion, Thornwolf. Appreciated. :)

No problem. I sincerely hope you or the other staff don't think I'm attacking you guys, seriously you guys seem cool even though I disagree with some things, but hey, no gallery is perfect.

As for action I'm looking for, I want to ban it. Not have it on filters because I feel that's just sweeping a problem under the rug.

It really gives me the willies to be on a site with people that get off on the innocent of the innocent, beings who can't normally defend themselves most of the time. This whole mess has caused a good friend of mine to remove all of the pictures of her newborn son from the internet because she's /afraid/ of all the supporters in that poll fapping to pics of her baby. I mean I honestly was surprised at the amount of supporters, fake accounts or not.

Even if the ban is in place I can sincerely say that I'll still feel uncomfortable here now that all those folks are "outed" as it were. =/ But I'd still stay if it was banned and a lot of the better artists would too.

"It really gives me the willies to be on a site with people that get off on the innocent of the innocent, beings who can't normally defend themselves most of the time."

Welcome to the internet. Sadly no matter where you go on the net you are among people like that, or even worse, the people that actual perform such acts! Hell, if anything it's probably safer on here where people are open about it. You'd be amazed how many people in this community enjoy certain things when it comes to [art] but are horribly squicked by it in real life.
It always amuses me going to conventions. I've met people that are incredibly gay online and have done some of the raunchiest male-male RP's you can imagine, but in real life are very straight and even somewhat homophobic! I think the same goes on this subject though. Just because people draw it or find it attractive in artwork doesn't mean they enjoy the real stuff at all.

All in all though, regardless of the outcome it's still the same people you've been around on this site. This discussion just brought it to the surface. You'll be around the same people anywhere else on the net as well, if not worse. It's only safer because you don't know ^^'

I want to see again your art, i' don't know "DA", semeone cant telle me the web adresse Please ?

I'dont know what that occured, and i don't want to know. I just hope to see your art again ^^

Bye.

deviantart

silberwolf.deviantart.com, to be precise =)

Thank you ^^

See you later Silber.

Its a shame to hear this, but at the same time, you must do what you must do.

Its a shame the FA can't get it's act together to address this problem like they should.

agreed

I'm sorry - but I have to say this.

You are, of course, only accountable to yourself, so I say this not in an attempt to change your mind, but rather because there's something I find a bit.. odd.

You draw Nazi furs. I happen to think they're very well done - and because I can make the distinction between a drawing and reality - and since you've made it clear that you're not promoting Nazism, I can isolate that.

Still, to a lot of people - and you know this from some of the reactions you've gotten - it looks like you promote Nazism and glorify Hitler and his regime. I could say that my father fought in WWII and my mother was a Russian freedom fighter who was captured by the Nazis and spent time in a concentration camp under them... and that I find it offensive and that you're clearly sick for trying to protray them in ANY positive light...

But I don't, because just drawing something doesn't mean you actually support something or want to do something.

There are furs who draw pictures of rape. Dogsoul has a particularly disturbing image of a wolf tearing into a mule while raping it anally. It's beautifully executed, but fundamentally - I find it offensive because of its subject matter. I handle it by not looking at it. Should I ask he/she be removed from FA? Well, I'd say rape is as serious as child molestation. So is murder.

But it's not murder. It's not rape. It's a *drawing*. And freedom of expression means sometimes people say (or draw) things you don't like. That's the price of being free to draw Nazi wolves...

Anyway, sorry to see you go, I'd rather you stay and offer people something else to look at... but, hey, you have to decide for yourself.

Best wishes either way.

Fair and legit challenge there. Yes, I completly agree my Nazi stuff is dangering of putting of people, and that is something that actually caused me some trouble myself. The same applies to examples you give about rape, snuff, basicly all fetishes that include situations where one partner is not willing to partake in the action. I am not a fan of those myself, I do not respect them, but I tolerate them.

The difference in all this, at least in my view, is that all those cases include adult people. Children are a completly different story though. This may sound old fashioned and from yesterday, but I consider children something sacred, not completly arrived in this world of cruelty yet, innocent may be the right word. And therein lie my motives with this whole topic.

Ppl that draw children, or cubs, or whatever representing children kick that innocense in the nuts to just get a good fapping. And that seriously puts me off.

Nazi art is protected speech.
Nazism is a political ideology people are entitled to have, even if it is wrong.

Pedophilia is a lust for children, not an ideology, so it is not protected.
Molesting children is illegal and not a protected behavior.

Comparing Nazis to Pedophiles is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, they are both fruity, but they are not really the same.

No, you should reject this challenge as a false analogy.

Probably, but there is enough drama and discsussion around as it is then to start another topic here.

I have to agree there.

As someone who draw Nazifurs, Sovietfurs, etc. whatever, the difference is that this is a historical potrait, of ideologies that are allowed even if offensive. I mean, I had relatives who were shot by Soviet soliders during the Finnish Winter War, and my aunt's husband's parents were put in Soviet camps in Hungary, yet I do not cry and whine as soon as people draw Soviets and such because it is a potrait of something that have existed in our history and something that cannot be or SHOULD be censored (it is a part of our history, you know).

Pedophilia is a sexuality, not an ideology nor a part of our history so it is not the same as a political ideology.

For that matter, if we should go as far and say that drawing anthros of WW2-German and Russian armies shouldn't be allowed, any potrait of a character of ANY army shouldn't, since in war people are murdered, in ALL armies. It's our history (as horrible as it might be). You cannot compare our historical legacy to porn of minors.

So yes, it dosen't work. I fully agree with you.

I too regret Silber's decision, Werewolf, but I think you're addressing the wrong point. Your logic's fine, but you seem to start from the premise that Silber's objection is rational. I take it that he simply finds the stuff so distasteful that he doesn't want to be anywhere around it. To take a more universally unpleasant example: you wouldn't want corpses in the flat next door, even if you didn't have to see (or smell) them. Just knowing is bad enough.

Silber, a request. Please keep your account open, even if you remove all your art from it. And, when you find a new place for your art, please post a journal entry so people will know where you've gone. I'd hope the place would allow both adult and non-adult art, since it seems silly to separate them.

The way you describe it pretty much hits the nail on its head.

And yes, will do, at least until I find a new place. For the time beeing I will holt to my deviant acoount, silberwolf.deviantart.com

Thanks.

If you want to get into moral qualms I think that these issues are just as important:

1. Rape art is just as bad
2. Art glorifying snuff for fetishist purposes is worse
3. Torture and unwilling bondage is another issue.

Since we are dealing with fantasy creatures people seem to be turning a blind eye to those things, why is the cub issue -any- different?

Personally I dislike cub art. I also don't want people to associate me with cub art... But on the other hand I don't believe FA is trying to associate anyone with that kind of thing unless they want to be.

I respect that you want to go because cub art doesn't agree with you and reminds you too much of the real horrors of actual child molestation. That's a very strong issue. But I don't and can't understand why so many people who take up arms over cub art have fewer issues with the other NC stuff.

It might be that you detest all of these things, but none of them are getting the same coverage. Any comments on that? I'm not trying to stir up more drama, but I figured I would ask an artist I respected rather than posting this in the drama train.

It sucks too because I just watched you :) But peace.

Read my reply to TheWerewolf, I pretty much lined out there where I see the difference, as right you may be with the rest.

Fair enough. It isn't a bad answer, and explains that point of view for me. I know a few rape victims who are adults though so maybe that's why I don't really see a distinction in how wrong one is or another.

*nods* I on the other hand know child abuse victims and the long run consequences. It's not pretty.

Of course. And personal experience affects judgment on matters of this sort. I respect that.

It's sort of the question:

"Is it more wrong to rape someone who doesn't fully understand the situation... Or to forcefully incapacitate someone who is completely aware of how wrong they are being treated and steal control from that person."

Personally I believe both are equally wrong, though the latter may be more traumatizing at the time, the rape of a child is not the same. When a person rapes a child that rape is of whatever adult that child may become. The early years and the development become confused and if there are issues with that person growing up, you never know exactly how they would have turned out otherwise.

It's a terrible subject in general. The big difference I suppose is that we are not talking about real people in furry art which is why regular rape seems tame when in real life it's one of the more horrible things which could happen to someone.

Agreed towards your analysis. I also think raping a child is more severve then raping an adult. Both is wrong, but a child is veryx much prone to be affected in all it's developent, whereas an adult may cope with it much better. Still bad, though, do not get me wrong.

I guess where we differ is the definition of fantasy here. For me, it does not matter if it is animals, cubs, real children or whatever. It is the very same principle behind it. And cubs are a smybol for children, too. I do not make a difference there.

It's a tough subject. It's hard for me to speculate on which is more wrong but I'll just agree that both are terrible and move on to the next point.

Cubs and furs in general are symbolic to an extent. We anthropomorphise creatures and project ourselves into them. As a result we have created a situation where an alternate but similar universe exists for us. It's only natural to relate to the characters and you can easily see that the issue of cub porn is wrong in that fantastic society. It's also easy to blur the lines and to take that fantasy into reality. For that reason, cub porn could be very bad for individuals who enjoy cub porn and begin to project their anthropic fantasy into reality. It also means that desensitization to that type of image occurs which might make it easier to make that transition from fantasy to reality.

However, all moral and psychological questions aside, the image itself is not wrong. Cub porn is simply not hurting anyone because it's just a drawing and it has no real child behind it who has suffered from rape.

Because the image itself is not wrong, but the possibility of a very small fraction of the people who enjoy that type of image taking their fantasys into reality is wrong we come across an issue. Do we ban this material?

It's like asking if we should ban violent videogames because they might desensitize someone into violence themselves...

Or if we should ban regular rape images because they might desensitize someone into actual rape...

This is the issue behind it and why it's not really a simple problem.

For me to view cub porn, for example, is pretty safe. I don't like kids. I don't like cub porn. Even if desensitized to it and even if begin to view it as not vile, I won't go out and rape a child because it isn't stimulating.

For a pedophile who likes humans and anthros equally to view cub porn as a vehicle for their fetish might be dangerous. As they get desensitized the possibility of actually transcending the image becomes real.

In this way it's like taking someone prone to violence and making them play violent video games. They are more likely to go out and actually perform violence than someone who is not prone to violence who is made to play the same games.

It's a muddy subject. Sorry for so much speculation and mind clutter.

To make a long answer short....if only 1 from a 100 people feels motivated to try stuff in the real world by seeing the acceptance of this on this art board and its large community, something is terrible wrong.

I very much like kids, and I certainly want to have some in a not too distant future. I also have a nephew and a niece, both young of age. I love both. So the whole subject is not as abstract to me as it may be for others.

Finally, I do think children are much more in danger of becoming victims then grown ups, as they can't defend themselves, even don't even know what is happening to them. In this regard the dangers here are also much higher then for example rape situations, if you know what I am aiming at.

"if only 1 from a 100 people feels motivated to try stuff in the real world by seeing the acceptance of this on this art board and its large community, something is terrible wrong."

Tell me about it. There is something terribly wrong with humans in general. I hope this isn't the case. My point was that it's not the art itself which is to blame, but the individuals predisposed to that type of art.

I completely agree that facilitating those type of people on this site could be a very bad idea. It's important to realize that anything at all could influence someone to do something bad, but it's the individual which you should hold accountable, not the material they have been viewing. The answer might not be to ban content because you could ban an awful lot of content on the assumption that someone somewhere will be influenced into performing that action.

But we aren't talking about banning content in general, only about banning content from FA. There will always be a Cub Central and the /AH on Fchan but that doesn't mean FA has to facilitate that type of audience. This is why I don't really care about the outcome any further than what artists leave.

true, but acceptance of certain topics in art also is a first step for justification of the whole matter. Despite I wouldn't even consider it art, but simply wank material.

And I'd never join a place like cub central. I joined here because this place more or less fitted my own opinions and tolerance levels. That is no longer the case.

Exactly.

I think this line distills exactly what many artists are leaving over:

"And I'd never join a place like cub central. I joined here because this place more or less fitted my own opinions and tolerance levels. That is no longer the case."

pretty much, I guess.

I'm right behind you.

Thanks, I know how to appreciate that.

Silber, listen the words o' a stranger like myself...

I must say I'm against mature cub art too, but I just can't run away from the problems that this issue its causing. Think about it, people are leavin' because they don't want cub porn ta happen either, but what will really happen then? There will be few people left against such art, and this will be a lost battle. As the saying goes; a few rotten apples spoil the bunch, but I believe we could plant a new tree where those rotten apples can grow.

I'm sure that the good artists like yerself want the furry community ta be known mostly by the artwork, but ignorin' things or tryin' ta avoid them won't help ta make anything change. The reality and the actual society we are livin' in it's sad, by the most part. And I'm just givin' ye something ta think about right now. We don't want more abused children, then we can't ignore that fact and do something. I personally don't read newspaper, why? Because I can't understand how someone can read the news there and sleep at night.

Well... Just like many other people, I wouldn't want ye ta leave... I enjoyed watchin' yer art fer such short time and commentin' what I could, but it's yer decission after all and if friends can't make ye change yer mind, who am I ta even try doin' so?

I wish ye the best, anyway.

I know what you are aiming at, but then again I am not a friend of long termn drama. If the rules are in place, there is nothing much I or others can do about it aside constantly flaming other artists pics. Given that, I do not really see an option here.
I voted, I voiced my opinion in the dicussion, not a lot more I can do. And if ppl support child abuse witht he argument of freedom of speech, options are even lower.

Having said and done all that, I have a huge personal problem with associating myself with a site allowing this kinda stuff. It is a personal thing. I do not want to protest with my leave, I simply do what I see best for myself.

*Places his hands together in front of his muzzle, both index fingers touching his nose as he closes briefly his eyes and shakes his head a few times.*

I wouldn't consider this while issue a dramatic situation. These people who actually like cub art, are just tryin' ta let themselves know. I should find the origins o' this discussion but I have an idea of where this could have came from.

Silber, I want ta ask ye something. Durin' yer stay here, in FA.. . there was probably people drawin' cubs still, and that didn't make ye leave, right? Why now?

It's not just fer ye.. Ye know? A lot o' good artists are leaving, it hurts me ta see that such talent will not be exposed ta public or only ta certain people. I know ye will move ta DA and I could still see ye there, but I know fer a fact that ye would have more watchers here.

I believe the result, whether it's a favor o' who doesn't like cub art, or these who like watchin' it... Won't change anything. But I'll stay here, ta express me opinion about it, ta let the world know that I still care. There is only a fine line between fantasy and reality, we need a wall ta prevent people from crossin' it.. and that wall are ourselves, people like ye and me.

In all honety, during all my stay here I never saw a cub pic. Seriously, if saw any I would have voiced my opinion earlier. I am open to "a lot", but there is the line.

Also, if you read all of this dicussion I had with others, you will see I am not leaving as an open protest, but for what I see as right and wrong. I do not want to associate myself with a site that allws this kinda pics. It is a matter of personal principles here.

I also do not take my art that serious. You are right, I am pretty sure I's have more viewers here, but I do not draw for praise, but for fun. Praise and respect is a bonus, and a big one, but it does not define my motivation to draw in the first place and it certainly does not outweight my personal morales, as overused that word may appear by now.

All this, fo rme, is not so much a battle that has to be won against childabusement, but simly of how I feel wehen coming to FA. And as I won't nor can't change the descisionmaking here, I will take my leave. It is as simple as that.

Wow. I just did a search for "Baby Fur (Adult)" and there is cub porn in there which has been around for a while now.

Ridiculous.

Interesting. But then again, I never conducted such a search.

I had never seen a cub pic in here myself either, but not for that I didn't think there wasn't people drawing that. It's just a fact we can't avoid, really.

I never said ye were leavin' as a signal of protest, I was simply expressin' me opinion and I thank ye fer taking the time ta read all this crap. But ye are too talkin' with someone that has actually been abused in the past, and not fer that I'm gonna' show the white flag.

In all honestly, ye could have just ignored me completely and stopped answerin'... I don't know ye, so I was only tryin' ta comment what I would like myself. Maybe it's only because me work never has recognition, and that would actually encourage me ta keep writtin'. Unconsciously, we all like ta be praised by our work from time ta time.

I was expressin' this like a battle only because that way it's easier ta understand. But I'm not gonna' wear any militar uniform or marks on me face either =P

Well, me point was made... Hopefully ye didn't take it offensively or anything, I knew from the start that I wouldn't change yer mind, and I mentioned it. I was only givin' me opinion about this.

I'll be seein' ye on DA. Best wishes.

No problems, no offense taken at all. I am always open for discussion in fair and unviolent ways, and I see where you are coming from. So all is fine =)

I hate nazi but i love your art even if it show S.S.I know it's not the reality:i say it isn't not because you draw nazi that you are it;it's just a pic.It's the same thing for the child porn(i hate this too):a simple picture isn't the reality.I can't understand your reaction to leave F.A.;if these pics hurt your eyes,do like me,close them,it's just a draw.

I see your point and objectivly, I won't argue it. But read my reply to TheWerewolf to see where I am coming from on this matter.

shame your leaving, I know i will miss your dombermans...dame they are sexy.

anyways Im gonna stay a little while see how this gose, if its a ban something else might come up for a ban...well just have to see.

*nods* I am still on DA, if you still want to watch.

cool I will watch you there

silberwolf.deviantart.com

done

Well I don't seek to sway anyone - what I am going to do is offer sane and logical facts ! OMG !

(I thank Guppy for pointing these facts out in a similar issue on Bluefurry)

the facts are as follows:
(8) �child pornography� means any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where� (A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(Fennec: No minor was used to produce images of �cub� artwork)
(B) such visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(Fennec: �Cub� artwork >IS< distinguishable from an actual minor, a cub is a fictional character) or
© such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct.
(Fennec: There is no identifiable minor which looks like any cub. This is regardless of adult content.)
(9) �identifiable minor�� (A) means a person� (i) (I) who was a minor at the time the visual depiction was created, adapted, or modified; or (II) whose image as a minor was used in creating, adapting, or modifying the visual depiction; and (ii) who is recognizable as an actual person by the person�s face, likeness, or other distinguishing characteristic, such as a unique birthmark or other recognizable feature; and (B) shall not be construed to require proof of the actual identity of the identifiable minor.Thus it is concluded that artwork depicting �cubs� or underage furs is not legally considered pedophilia or �child pornography�

So don't label things incorrectly - if we followed that line of thinking then all furry art would lead to acts of bestiality ?
Don't be absurd. RL is RL - and Fantasy (fandom) is IC.

Heh...


Ok, I dicussed exactly that matter several times now. Objectivly, you are right. But I not think nor argue objectivly in this regard. This is a personal topic for me. If you follow the rest of the dicussions of this site, you will see where I am coming from.

no - I do get the point you and several other are trying to make - but you base your decisions on what MIGHT happen, and on labels, and on BS morals concerning fictitious characters.
Get over it - if you're leaving - then leave but don't expect a huge "OH NO PLEASE DON'T GO" EMO fanfare - don't whine.
Stand by your decision and go !

and I agree 100% with The Werewolf - Hypocrit much ?

*prrs and headrubs*. I'm sure we all have our own personal reasons for biases, many of which could easily be seen to be hypocritical.
Silber's seem a lot more reasoned on his own journal, than so /many/ of those on the forum have been...
(To say nothing of the people who've voted to ban /everything/ cub related, even the relatively innocent stuff, yet are actually underaged themselves IRL and have only just been turfed out of viewing adult artwork, which /is/ a legal violation endangering FA rather than just some pixels on a screen with zero legal impact).

Personally, although I'd rather people didn't leave, it is perhaps better to know when/why they are doing so. And that's never free from the potential for drama.

Hey... just my 02c, and thank you for /caring/, too, Fennec.

Would you like me to point you to the journals of the people who are leaving if this ban doesn't go through? There's a lot, but if you say you want to know the reasoning, a lot of them say very similar things to what Silber said here. Its a theme =/

But yeah I've been preferring journal entries to whats being said on that forum thread. Ah well.

Eh, getting boring. Have your way.

As far as I can see that, you are the only person here mentioning any emo don't go fanfare.
And to use an argument mentioned several times by cub porn advocates..don't like it, don't read it.

Have a nice day.

(sigh) You know, you're a hard wolf to track-- always moving somewhere else, it seems.

I'll try to sign up at Deviant Art just to keep track of you-- until their stupid policies ban all furry art again, and then.. who knows. I don't know. Going to lose track of you, damn it-- there's no way to avoid it. And while your work may be only a hobby for you, I do think awfully highly of it. I'll miss it.

Ah sorry Havoc, seriously am. I certainly do not want to make ppl like you more uncomfortable in this, believe me. I think highly of people that respect my work. But this is a matter of principles, maybe exxegerated, but also a matter of the ability to look into a mirror into the morning and not be ashamed.

I understand. You have to do what you think is right. What good is a moral code if you don't live by it? I'd appreciate it, though, that when (I do not say "if") Furaffinity gets idiotic about furry art again, you drop a note in email or your journal letting me know where to find you again. If you don't mind.

Not at all. For the moment I'll stick to DA. What I do about my more adult work has to be seen.

I for one believed that people should be able to post whatever they want, and if you take down one fetish, you should take down them all. But I must admit, I'd much rather see cub art go, than a bunch of good artists. This is a damn shame.

If later, the TOS is changed to remove cub art, will you return?

Maybe. The huge support for this kinda art, even only in the name of free spech, left me a bit disturbed, though. I have to see about it.

Actually, that's something I mentioned in one reply to this. If every single person who enjoyed loli or cub art was a real life pedophile, we have -much- bigger problems to worry about. And that goes doubly for those into vore, gore and snuff. I can't believe that the ratio is anywhere near 1:1.

Can't neither. and that is really bothering me on a personal level. Ppl can't be that tolerant to this kinda stuff...not at this magnitude.

Maybe. The huge support for this kinda art, even only in the name of free spech, left me a bit disturbed, though. I have to see about it.

(sigh) You have your moral code. People who are fanatics about free speech, no matter what, have theirs. And any time you get more than three artists in a forum, it is doomed to self-destruct. :D

Yea, sorry to hear, I know...

What really gets me, is that the community is essentially saying they'd rather have artists like you, Kami, AWD, Balaa, etc... GOOD ARTISTS leave, than a handful of people who draw nothing but cub porn, which the majority of the community freely states they don't enjoy, all in the name of "freedom of expression"?

It's not freedom of expression... it's perverse, it's sick, it's depraved... it's where most respectable artists draw the line.

I'm not going to blame you or anyone for leaving if they decide to allow it... but I just really wish there was a way to make people see how rediculous a decision that would be and prevent them from making it.

Well, to give those people a slack, I do not think they took ppl may leave into account. But yeah, that is basicly the result.

my opinion is on the matter is expressed more clearly here: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/51387/

I think it's a sad state of affairs... but, to be expected, given how ignorant the average person is, and that half of them are dumber still...

Yo, Cap'n,

The stupidly polarised poll doesn't just mean "cubporn", it's removal of anything that could possibly be an "immature" character from any adult /or/ mature depiction.
e.g. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/273404/ , http://www.furaffinity.net/view/276158/ and a whole raft of other "questionable" material, too.

Just because a few people weren't happy about the "status quo" - and I've yet to hear from anyone who was unhappy enough to blow up the entire community...

Dragoneer's poll had no third option, but that was his call...

Though one has to say, making such a radical poll was not the smartest thing in the first place.

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/51387/

my opinion.

and yeah, the grey areas are there... but that's a judgement call in enforcement, and it always will be. It's no different from how it is now, excepting for a heightened level of awareness for the issue really.

As they say "you're known by the company you keep". The mods can say they despise cub art all they want but when stuff like this happens and they're left with the pedo artists and the good artists are left to leave...well..that kinda speaks a lot. =/

speaks a lot about the ignorance and immaturity of the community anyway... http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/51387/ it doesn't help that the admins feed into it.

It is the same with me. I too am planning on leaving if they do not outright ban Cub Porn. I personally don't give a shit how they see it. All it is: Pedophilia wrapped in fur. This is not a way to clean up the Fur Community. So, I am probably with you, Silbur. I personally do not want to be associated with a site that support Cub Porn, as it is very degrading.

spot on.

*purrs softly*

(per my reply to Cap'n, above)

*sighs*

The pole was a bad idea, as people are now supposedly making multiple accounts to vote more than once. Chance are, if FA allowed Cub Porn...I mean, shit...I would not reccomend FA to anyone new to the FC if they did that. It disturbs me that much. We try to clean up the FC and this bullshit happens because people love their god damn too much.

Das ist halt sehr konsequent, Silber. Hab das heute wegen Arbeit net so mitbekommen, aber hier fährt die Pädo-Lobby wohl schwere Geschütze gegen die "normalen" FA-User auf. Schon eine Schande, diese Leute, das hat nichts mit Meinungs- und Redefreiheit zu tun, solche Vorlieben ausleben zu dürfen.

Wenn schon, denn schon. Hab net vor das auch nur ein Iota zu unterstützen, oder auch nur damit assoziiert zu werden.

I don't know, but I wonder whether the change in policy that started all this heartburn was prompted by a change in the US law?

good question actually. I read about that. I really do not know.

Don't go until the fat lady has finally sung!

Seriously, please don't go until the policy has been officially changed. I love your art a lot. Sure, Nazis were evil bastards, but there uniforms were very snazzy. That was a very important fact because it helped sell there ideas to the masses. The very uniform of the Nazi officer was itself propaganda! Historically, that is very significant.

Even if there is a complete ban. As I said before, the huge support for it kinda gives me the chills. Will take some time to reconsider this whole affair.

Yes, do sleep on it.

And do also think of the other 50% who agree with you.

What do I have to do with these, though?

I'm of the opinion that the 50% who want the ban feel much stronger than those who don't want the ban. If you are for the ban, you take a strong absolute stand. If you don't want to ban, your opinion is a nebulous and vague one that revolves around a very loose definition of "free speech". They probably don't lust for cub porn, but they think that it is okay. My problem with the 50% that want the ban removed is that they never mind the responsibility that comes with the freedoms they assume themselves to have. These freedom of expression people think they should have a free pass to do what every they want without regard for the natural consequences.

My point is that the 50% who are for the ban are morally and spiritually stronger (regardless of religion) than the 50% who are against the ban. That strength is very significant, IMHO.

Though one could argue this pov is pretty assumptious, I actually agree. Especially the responsebility bit is down to the point.

I voted for a ban on cub porn on FA. It's absolutely disgusting.

Last time I checked, the poll is now closed and the vote for banning cub porn on FA won.

Let's hope for the best.

I hope so too. Dragoneer said he will announce his ruling in the matter tomorrow night.

Keep your fingers crossed, silber.

Doing that for quite a while now. Lessee.

Very well Bree. Your decision is made. I will at least give you points of honor for not wasting yours and everyone elses time in debating the issue until your out of breath. Fair Thee Well on that path thou hast chosen.

I'm already watching you on DA, and imagine a lot of the people I was watching here will end up there.

very possible. I also guess there will be an LJ community of sorts.

I would welcome being part of it, if possible.

I only upload half if not less of my images to DA. Tooo maaaany caaaategories D:

LJ is different though, but still won't have my pr0ns

And with no central clearing house, searching for so many artists will become a nightmare again. Oish. You don't do a lot of porn anyway, but where does one have to go to see it?

Goodbye, watchee. I'll miss your presence and art, but you gotta do what makes you comfortable.

*nods*