What ever happened to separation of church and state?

Flew out the window years ago.

Technically, the separation of church and state doesn't exist. It's not actually in the US constitution at all. It originated from a letter between two people whom I forgot of (sorry), but the point is it's not actually a real legal law. It's more like a suggestion, a recommendation.

However, I should go ahead and say that the Freedom of Religion amendment could be extended to translate as separation of church and state (among other rights). I just said the above because I've heard the argument before.

Well, you know how to counter it. Sorry I didn't see your followup comment right away. Anyone who tries to use that line on you, you can also point out that God and Jesus are nowhere in the constitution either.

Jefferson and the minister of a church, I think.

And it was written to calm the Baptist minister who was worried the US might have an established religion. Ironic, no? This was because they had just escaped from a country (Europe) that was already governed by the catholic church.

*eyeroll* This old chestnut again.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is right in the first amendment. It means there is no official state church in the United States and protects both religion from the tyranny of government and government from the tyranny of religion. While the phrase "wall of separation" and others like it don't appear in the constitution, this first amendment clause has been explained by no less than Jefferson himself to mean it refers to a separation between church and state.

Its a pity they used more flowerly language back in the day, but there are plenty of supporting documents from the founding fathers that explain that the separation clause is in the constitution and the US is not established as a Christian nation.

In short, its in the bloody constitution and always has been!!

Not quite; the First Amendment is an express prohibition on the law making powers of the US Congress alone, unlike the Second Amendment which was a general prohibition on infringements by governments at all levels. For many decades after the adoption of the Bill Of Rights, some states (such as Massachusetts) had established state churches. They had all been disestablished by the time that the 14th Amendment was passed.

it's from a Supreme court ruling.

In 1947, with the United States Supreme Court's decision in Everson v. Board of Education.
Justice Hugo Black, This ruling declares that any aid or benefit to religion from governmental actions is unconstitutional. As Justice Black said: "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."
That, there is a wall of separation of church an state.

HEY, you shmuckster! I'm not gay and I want a hug too! *pouts*

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/513496/

*Hugs!* Sorry--didn't mean to discriminate (unlike certain legislators I could mention).

I signed.

This petition would only be seriously valid if people from California signed. Otherwise, it's just for e-fun. I'll sign it if I find out you're not serious about trying to use this as a movement, but rather as just a way of showing people that there are many people in general all over the US and the world upset by this.

From what I have read, it was a bunch of individual Mormons who donated the money rather than their Church itself.

In any case, the First Amendment starts with the words "Congress shall make no laws abridging...", and I agree with those both on the left and the right that Congress (via the IRS) has no constitutional authority to penalize churches for what they say, no matter how political, narrow minded, or obnoxious.

The US has many churches, but only one Congress, and I consider Congressional restrictions on speech and the press (such as McCain-Feingold and the internet indecency acts) to be far more dangerous than anything that one of hundreds of churches could say. I'm very sorry that Cal. Prop. 8 passed, but calling for enforcement of restrictions on speech and the press is an extremely dangerous way to deal with it.

In the last election, there was a conspiracy of ministers, both right and left, who spoke in favor of political candidates from their pulpits, and turned in recordings of what they said to the IRS to create a First Amendment test case. I hope they win. Congress, being a monopoly in control of lots of Federalie guns, is a far greater danger to freedom than any church nowadays. This is 2008, not the era of the Spanish Inquisition.

Excuse me, but isn't this the church that you can PAY to have BAPTIZE your dead relative into heaven from the nether regions?

Hmmm... Money TALKS in heaven, too?

Thats what I've heard, but there are some Mormon ministers who will do it for free. A couple of LDS evangelists came to my door and offered me free baptisms for myself and my ancestors. Maybe it was a contest? Thanks, but no thanks.

Honey, we have a Mormon Church within driving distance here. When it was about to be "blessed," they allowed people to actually go through it, wearing little blue booties on their feet. I later overheard a Mormon Zealot tell another promising convert that the booties were given to the HEATHENS to not spoil their new temple.

And OMG, the Baptismal FONT I saw was gynormous (about 20 feet tall, covered with gilded gold and placed behind a huge, viewing room ofg ceiling to wall glass! Hey, puts the Catholic Church to SHAME, man!!! LOL

This site also has a petition but explains the issue regarding the Mormon Church's involvement.
http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/

The Mormon church is a very large business that owns and invests in other companies. I'm not big on boycotts but I really don't want one cent of my money going to their cause against me.
I've also decided not to purchase Dell or Black n Decker products or stay at a Marriott hotel to start.

Don't forget the other church they run in California, In And Out Burger.

oh damn, I like that place.

Boycotts are a fine way of withdrawing economic support from those who act against your interests. They are ultimately democratic in nature, and do not involve the dangers of inviting the government to suppress someone else's speech at the point of government guns. Thanks for the suggestion.

ultimately, money talks!

Damn right!

After reading this, I was delighted that Dell has been doing very poorly this year - so poorly that it is laying off hundreds of employees. Acer has been the big winner of late.

More likely Massachusetts and Connecticut will see an influx.

To be brutally honest, I'm afraid you can blame the minorities more than you can the Mormons for the passing of Prop 8. Blacks and hispanics came out in record numbers to the polls, and gays have never been widely tolerated in either community (and either group outnumbers the LDS considerably). It's hardly coincidental that the church is the core of both communities. So I think you can blame the Baptists and the Catholics far more than the LDS.

(In the interests of full disclosure, I consider all of them deceiving parasites that are a blight on human intelligence and dignity, vampirically thriving on lies and the blood of their followers, and the Mormons in particular appear to have been founded by completely batshit insane people, so I'm not defending anybody, here.)

Your right that there are more than one shit disturbers with their dirty fingers in the Human rights pot. That's why I believe human rights issues should never be put to a vote. They should be ruled based on the constitution by the supreme court of law. Any reputable government in a true democracy should respect that ruling. I believe it's the only way gay rights will ever be recognized fully.

The focus on the Mormon church is because they spent $20 million to see this bill passed.
It's such a terrific waist of time and money that could be spent to fight things like poverty or hunger, etc.

Oh, don't worry--I DO definitely blame Baptists and Catholics...after all--WHY are homosexuals not tolerated in those societies? The Church. Catholics and Baptists (as well as Mormons) are especially intolerant and narrow-minded about anything involving sex. Which, of course, probably means they obsess about it more than anyone. LOL

The petition just picks on Mormons because they are a religious entity trying to impose their standards on the rest of us by manipulating government policy--something they should keep their magic underwear OUT of!

Okay, I can tell you this: The Catholic Church does accept homosexuals. Where it gets whacky is that w say that you can BE one but not PRACTICE it, according to them (it's my church). Pardon me, but isn't that like going to a banquet and being told that you can't eat any of the food?

I'm still trying to figure THAT one out.

"Accept" is too gratious a term. Let's put it this way--they SAY they accept homosexuals, but actually, they don't. Outside of the Church, we call this "lying". It is a method also used by polititians to talk out of both sides of their mouths. LOL What am I saying--the Catholic Church is RUN by polititians! *sigh* That wacky Pope!

*rolls my eyes* hoo boy!

They need a battle to fight, a cause to rally the followers, something to help them fear the wrath of God. We are the most convenient target for this, dare I say.. 'recruiting'.

More layers to the onion:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2.....235/704/656272

South Park had a delightful episode exposing the origins of the Mormon Church, complete with the magical vanishing gold tablets.

OH FOXY!!! Many years ago I visited some friends of mine in Missoula, Montana, and also went up into Utah. The owner of the motel we were staying in noticed my inquisitiveness about the Mormon Church. AFter a rather long discussion/story telling session, I asked her where the TABLETS that were given to Joseph Smith went to. She looked at me and said, "Why child, the angel Moroni took them back into heaven!" Just like that...

I walked out of her office, amazed at the gullibility of it all.

You will the South Park episode on their origins!

I gotta go find it now!

It's a frightening thing when you have to rely on foul-mouthed children made of cut paper as the only ones who will tell you the truth about things. We live in a strange world.

Enjoy! http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/207897

AH yes, Joseph Smith. The man who was driven out of Navoo, Illinois for Polygamy.

The Federalies threatened to invade Utah Territory with the Army in the late 1800s if they didn't outlaw polygamy. One would hope that they would have learned something about the dangers of government interference with marriage from that, but apparently not...

Good luck with that petition. I hope it goes through. I've seen a bunch of stuff going around to try to counter-act prop 8.

Prop 8 is one step away from esablishing Jim Crow laws for homosexuals. Civil unions, fuck this seperate but equal bull shit. Constitutional rights belong to all citizens, not just those who fall in love with the opposite sex.

Exactly right--succinctly put!

I commend the petition and the sentiment, but a proposition for an amendment to a constitution is not a piece of legislation, nor is the act of supporting it lobbying a legislator.

But yes, please, take a large telephone pole and stuff it up their backsides sideways!

I know the mormons were a BIG contributor to Yes on 8... but they were far from the ONLY religious contributors to it.

There is a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish church in your neighborhood. React appropriately. Nuff said.