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Journal Start
-=LAST UPDATED: 2013-11-22, 11:00PM EST=-
Greetings, citizens!
We've been seeing a massive increase in spam lately, and for once it's not coming from spammers, but by users on the site. To combat this rising plague we are modifying the rules as of this posting.
* "Spam to Win" - Journals and submissions which require OR directly encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions are PROHIBITED.
* YCH/Auction Reminders - These Reminders must be unique and new submissions, and may NOT be a copy nor variant of previously posted submissions. These Reminders may NOT be submitted, removed, and then reused in the same fashion as other notices outlined in the Acceptable Upload Policy.
~ Rules Change Reasoning: - The volume of new notices created due to YCH, Auctions, and users requiring or encouraging other users to create additional submissions and journals on their behalf has become excessive and is inconveniencing Fur Affinity's community.
ANY NEW SUBMISSIONS OR JOURNALS created after this posting (Nov 21 @ 6:00PM EST, 11:00PM EST) in violation of the Spam to Win policy be removed if found.
The AUP and Code of Conduct will be updated later tonight to reflect these changes. If users have questions regarding this policy we will be periodically updating this post with a Q/A to respond to answers.
Thank you,
The Fur Affinity Admin Team
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Q: May I still advertise auctions, et al. via journal or in the descriptions of new submissions?
A: Yes. You may do this as often as you would like, provided you adhere to any restrictions outlined in our Acceptable Upload Policy.
Q: What about Streaming, Commission, or Price notices?
A: This rule change does NOT apply to these notices. Please refer to the Acceptable Upload Policy for applicable restrictions and limitations.
Q: May I create a journal to "signal boost" the journal, account, or submission of a friend or artist I like?
A: Yes, UNLESS the aforementioned user's journal encourages or requires you to do so in any way.
Q: May I still post works in progress for auctions, et al. that I have sold?
A: Yes; however, incomplete art is still required to be submitted into the SCRAPS folder as per the Acceptable Upload Policy.
Q: May I still create raffles, contests, etc.?
A: Yes, provided that entry doesn't include the exchange of consideration such as cash, items of monetary value, require nor encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions, nor violate Fur Affinity's site rules.
-=Site Staff Monitoring This Thread=-
Greetings, citizens!
We've been seeing a massive increase in spam lately, and for once it's not coming from spammers, but by users on the site. To combat this rising plague we are modifying the rules as of this posting.
* "Spam to Win" - Journals and submissions which require OR directly encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions are PROHIBITED.
* YCH/Auction Reminders - These Reminders must be unique and new submissions, and may NOT be a copy nor variant of previously posted submissions. These Reminders may NOT be submitted, removed, and then reused in the same fashion as other notices outlined in the Acceptable Upload Policy.
~ Rules Change Reasoning: - The volume of new notices created due to YCH, Auctions, and users requiring or encouraging other users to create additional submissions and journals on their behalf has become excessive and is inconveniencing Fur Affinity's community.
ANY NEW SUBMISSIONS OR JOURNALS created after this posting (Nov 21 @ 6:00PM EST, 11:00PM EST) in violation of the Spam to Win policy be removed if found.
The AUP and Code of Conduct will be updated later tonight to reflect these changes. If users have questions regarding this policy we will be periodically updating this post with a Q/A to respond to answers.
Thank you,
The Fur Affinity Admin Team
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Q: May I still advertise auctions, et al. via journal or in the descriptions of new submissions?
A: Yes. You may do this as often as you would like, provided you adhere to any restrictions outlined in our Acceptable Upload Policy.
Q: What about Streaming, Commission, or Price notices?
A: This rule change does NOT apply to these notices. Please refer to the Acceptable Upload Policy for applicable restrictions and limitations.
Q: May I create a journal to "signal boost" the journal, account, or submission of a friend or artist I like?
A: Yes, UNLESS the aforementioned user's journal encourages or requires you to do so in any way.
Q: May I still post works in progress for auctions, et al. that I have sold?
A: Yes; however, incomplete art is still required to be submitted into the SCRAPS folder as per the Acceptable Upload Policy.
Q: May I still create raffles, contests, etc.?
A: Yes, provided that entry doesn't include the exchange of consideration such as cash, items of monetary value, require nor encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions, nor violate Fur Affinity's site rules.
-=Site Staff Monitoring This Thread=-
:DDD
YAY FOR SPELLING NAZISM :D
XDD
Go to Dachau in Germany there you find some in the KZ.
Maybe you visit a KZ and let the history there clear your mind
Die Eier Von Satan
Eine halbe Tasse Staubzucker
Ein Viertel Teeloffel Salz
Eine Messerspitze turkisches Haschisch
Ein halbes Pfund Butter
Ein Teeloffel Vanillenzucker
Ein halbes Pfund Mehl
Einhundertfunfzig Gramm gemahlene Nusse
Ein wenig extra Staubzucker
... und keine Eier
In eine Schussel geben
Butter einruhren
Gemahlene Nusse zugeben und
Den Teig verkneten
Augenballgro?e Stucke vom Teig formen
Im Staubzucker walzen und
Sagt die Zauberworter
Simsalbimbamba Saladu Saladim
Auf ein gefettetes Backblech legen und
Bei zweihundert Grad fur funfzehn Minuten backen und
KEINE EIER
Bei zweihundert Grad fur funfzehn Minuten backen und
Keine Eier ..
We always need these kind of ''Inpact'' :P
That was rather funny tbh xD
Even though Typos are always funny...
ahahah
OH WAIT.
Wait........that ones already been used :(
I wanna join in :P
No! No! He throws the ball to Who!
"That's what I said...."
If it really bothered you, just unwatch their ass.
2: its annoying to see it practically everywhere even when you aren't watching someone
3: ALOT of users aren't promised with what they are offered EXCEPT probably only a very close friend
Its considered an art scam in exchange for views or watches, its another cowards way of saying "shit, no ones watching me because im not good enough, i better spam like crazy with the help of randoms and use them for there watches since they have alot" so "un-watching" wouldn't do anything they would just continue doing raffles for more watchers in hope to be known, or at least i think that's the correct term, maybe its just to have alot of watchers i don't know, fact is, its spamming, its scamming, and its pathetic
Thing I'm concerned about is why is submissions banned instead of just journals...
A lot of people draw and it is not fair to anyone that does so to have their submission shoved out of view in even less time with a submission that advertises something other than art drawn by the submitter. Competition to be noticed by those that view the recent submissions is stiff enough for artists as it is. Less so for musicians and authors.
Thank you!
...
xDDDD
There are plenty of other ways for new artists to advertise or get exposure.
I've been using the signal boost idea to find new artists and to spread the word to get others to see artists I like.
The raffle thing was a neat incentive with little to no cost for the artist.
This rule change only removes the 'spam to win' contest style 'forced' pimping. What I would suggest is to encourage active members of FA to focus on spreading awareness of talented artists that have few watchers. Watch these members and encourage them to post artist spotlight submissions or journals.
A future goal of FA is to spotlight talented and tasteful artists. There's just no easy means for this at the moment aside from things like this post, which was met with large amounts of negativity when it was last tried (with Fablefire). Since then, the concept has been on hold until a better method is arranged, possibly linked to the site reconstruction.
(Note: I'm not a member of staff, these are just things I've noticed/heard, so don't take it as gospel.)
I feel like with the sheer volume of those promotional journals, that not many people read them anyway, so this method might even get you more watchers than the old way.
Hopefully this helps you and anyone else who wants to read it!
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5281033/
As for finding new artists to watch, I find that fav-hopping is extremely effective, and you can still promote artists you like in your own journals as long as you're not entering to win something by doing so.
The forums are also great. Go to the art exchange and offer trades or freebies... great way to get your name out there! (I get a much better response on there than I do by offering freebies and trades in FA journals.)
Also: http://i.imgur.com/nATd1B8.png
I can imagine, i only got like 1 or 2 of them.
Also I went to your page. Yo, don't call people 'fags' for any reason. Shit's not cool, dude.
about the $1111 raffle rant?
I just thought it was stupid, and usually that gets a lot of peoples attention.
if you find that you cannot say anything that will publicly humiliate one, just don't even bother mentioning.
Like, jesus christ. This world is filled with babies now who can't take any mean words without crying to the internet about how it should change.
I agree it can be offensive, but again, I know plenty of people who are the other way around. I will watch what I say around people if I know it upsets or offends them (I have a friend who hates dead baby jokes so I don't make them around her). But you can't expect everyone everywhere to change how they act and talk just for you, that's what I'm getting at, here.
in fact
But, may I give you a word of advice?
Stop replying to
the threading is all messed-up, have you noticed that it looks as if I was replying to myself?
Go ahead, look up a bit and see that it seems as though I'm shouting at myself XD
I don't think your brain is functioning properly...
let's look at the facts:
1) Somebody tries to be polite and say something helpful
2) You call them a 'fuck head'
3) I tell you that you are being rude for no reason
4) You try to insult me by calling me a 'nerd'
Also, isn't this basically what you were having a rant at? people being insulting?
May I ask what I have done wrong for you to attempt to insult me?
And a FRIENDLY tip, if you want to get a point across to someone... don't end up insulting them, it only makes things worse. And (in this case) makes you look like a hypocritical person
And to be honest?
Even though I shouldn't get involved, I think we can all agree on one thing: That this isn't the right place for this conversation.
After-all, this is a Journal for rule changes to journals and not rules on offensive behaviour.
But anyway, it seems like this has all calmed down.
And I think everyone should just drop the argument or continue it elsewhere.
No, he can not. You're not supposed to make call-out journals first off, and you can't call someone a gay slur since it counts as "offensive material"
Like this shouldn't be a free speech issue. It is terrible to call other people f*g and to try and humiliate them. This would be different in a closed circle of friends but out in the open he obviously wants to shame Kris.
Then had a flail, left, deleted everything (including the journal and pictures I had the originals to) and came back within the week, acting like nothing has happened. x.x
Give me a better word. I love 'faggot'.
When people argue on the internet? It gets stuck in no-man's land.
Imagine the argument as something similar to WorldWar1, both sides have fired insults at each other and become offended.
They have then dug themselves into their 'defensive mode', just like digging trenches and are now stuck there until one side wins.
Somebody like you who, is not involved, but wants it to stop will simply get caught in the crossfire.
So, if you have any sense, take my warning: When you see a massive argument the internet, and you don't want to get involved? Stay as far back as possible.
If you feel I'm being impolite or anything, please message me as I did not mean to be.
Just trying to be nice and help out
You're right, well at least i had the brains to remove my comment before anything lul.
But thank you♥
That's the power of Butt-hurt®, baby!
I hate being politically correct all the time, especially with the word fag, as someone whos primarly interested in guys I don't really think its that much of an insult. However, it's amazing to use at times on insecure people.
I am pretty much a faggot myself so, I use it too. Hell, in sexual terms I and others like to use it too.
*Good for you. Doesn't change the fact it normalizes bigotry. So don't "YOU PEOPLE" me, FUCKHEAD.
Here to make sure that you adhere to his social standards, no matter if you're talking to him or not.
"don't call people fags"
now
"Sorry Capt. Lolbertarian"
Lol indeed.
2. i'm not 19 anymore, as i rarely update my profile info, my bad, but refer to #1
3. i commented when i first read it, the timing is also irrelevant.
1. Argue something stupid (so what if you're offended? walk away, don't pay attention, you can't stop people saying thigs just cus you don't like it)
2. Attack opponents personally when you have no legit counter-argument (my age? seriously?)
3. Give up (as you just have)
collectilol
I get called a fag by my friends all the time, it's slang, like calling something gay or retarded isn't calling it homosexual or mentally challenged. Good god, you people...ruin everything.
Quit being a massive faggot. Seriously.
Look at your own comments for a second... see? looks like you're replying to YOURSELF, but you're not.
The comment system just broke due to the large number of comments
I know what it means now but it still feels like millions of people are calling everyone a smoke XD
http://forums.army.ca/forums/Smiley.....ckpeddling.gif
Frickin' Pokeymans all the time Fryman I swear ta god.
Mind, you're free to not care that I'm disappointed. By all means, my opinion isn't really important. Just don't misunderstand why I have it.
PS. Keep in mind that 'public' isn't the same as your group of friends. I legit don't care if you and your friends call each other names, it's just you can't expect the rules to be the same when you're talking to strangers.
That said it's getting hard to load this journal with this many comments, so if you want to discuss this further, I'm okay with that, but could you note me instead?
Dude you need an award
If it was not, JUST KIDDING.
Also thanks for the watch <3
And yer welcome! You've got cute art c:
This, dude.
I think most people with a reasonable amount of intelligence can tell the difference between someone saying a word without real malice, vs someone saying a word hatefully. So, in your own words, let them out themselves as dumb. If people want to use a slur, let them. People who understand that the way they used it is not okay will take note and judge that person accordingly. If people are using words without malicious intent, like just saying "hey my fellow faggots look at all the dick I drew for you, yay," when it's clearly not meant as exclusion or hate or whatever, then there's nothing wrong with that. It's silly to get bent out of shape about it.
If someone is using a word as a slur, it's still more about their intent than the actual word. The context there was obviously using the word 'fag' in the derogative, but it wasn't an actual slur against homosexuals. The word could be swapped out with any derogative like asshole or douchebag and still maintain the same intent behind it, so it's not bigotry. It's just throwing a word out as an insult. That the word has a bigoted connotation does not alter the intent behind the use of it in that instance. It makes him look a dumb middle schooler, but calling him a bigot is reading more into it than is actually there. When people throw accusations of bigotry around when that's not actually what's going on, it diminishes ACTUAL instances of bigotry in the same way that excessive frivolous accusations of _________ lead to people being more likely to just start rolling their eyes when they hear it, even in more valid instances of it.
People shouldn't let words - any words - cause such a powerful reaction in themselves. It is the >intents< that are >behind< the words that actually matter. No word should be "you can't say that word."
Let people use the words. Using a highly charged word like that outside of the bigoted context connected to it makes a person look like a moron. Using a word like that in a way that IS bigoted will be painfully obvious and bigoted people have more chance of having those views knocked out of them if people can actually see it from them.
So let them show people what they are, and let people judge them accordingly.
The only reason people are hurt by an insult word worse than any other insult word is that they're >conditioned< to have a more powerful reaction to that word. People are taught that anyone saying certain words is automatically saying or doing or validating all this other stuff, too. Sometimes a person IS doing all that when they say a word, but not every time the word is uttered. I think it would be in EVERYONE'S best interests if people were instead taught to be able to evaluate someone's speech and VALIDLY determine whether all the additional hateful bigoted stuff was in the intent of someone's word, or if it's just someone being ignorant/stupid/or possibly even using the word without any of that intent behind it.
I am all aboard and in full support of judging bigots and holding them accountable for their hate and obstructing them whenever possible. But not to the point of tying excess baggage to a word when none of that is in the intent of the speaker in a specific instance.
I grew up without internet, and pretty sheltered, with no real solid concept of what gay and homosexual and fag all meant. I knew they were treated as bad things, and I knew they had something to do with me wanting to see other dudes' thingies, but I also knew the other kids throwing the words around had about as much an idea of what they actually meant as I did. I wasn't >taught< to take this enormous personal offense and treat hearing those words as severely damaging to me on a deep personal level, and so I couldn't give a shit when I hear 'faggot' thrown around. When someone says it as just a synonym for 'stupid' or 'lame' or whatever, I take the word with the meaning intended. When someone says it amicably, the way some people 'take back' the word, I take it as such. When someone says it as an actual slur against homosexuals, I take it by their intent, and THAT'S when I get offended by it. Because that's when the offense is warranted.
And so far, it hasn't ever really been difficult to tell which way the speaker is meaning to use the word.
Basically, teaching people to REACT!!!!!! any time they hear a word, instead of teaching them to be able to identify context and intent and react accordingly, only serves to cause people to have a 'BIGOT!!! KIL!!!' reaction to lots and lots of people NOT actually being bigots. Which, like I said, clouds the topic and makes it harder to single out actually bigoted people. I think THAT does more to enable them to get away with such speech more than trying to tell everybody to just not ever ever use certain words.
The main reasons why the continued use of bigoted slurs is a problem are:
First, the casual bigotry[1] gives cover for the active bigots.
Second, it contributes to the marginalization of the group involved.
This is true even if there is no intent to be bigoted.
[1] Remember that casual bigotry does not require you to intend any malice. You can easily engage in it without realizing it and the proper response to being told you are doing it is to say you're sorry and try to stop doing it.
But no word, not one of them, is intrinsically and universally hate speech. "Cunt" is a pretty charged word and is very often a hateful term, and plenty of people simply don't like seeing it, yet there ARE examples of it being used without any element of hate. "Cuntbois" describe characters with a specific combination of gender/sex/genitalia in porn, and "cunt" is VERY often used as nothing more than a more vulgar and pornographic term for 'vagina.' "He thrust his pulsing rod into her dripping cunt" is not in any way the same meaning for the word as it is if someone calls a person a cunt. You HAVE to allow for intent and context when dealing with language and ascribing meaning to what someone has said - communication is stifled if certain concepts or subjects and the terms which define them become off-limits. It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion of slur terms if every single slur term is instantly and universally hate-speech and bigotry for using them in any way in any context.
If a person says "gay," and by "gay," they mean "happy," you can tell them that "gay" is usually taken to mean "homosexual" more than "happy" these days, sure, fine, but YOU would be the one in the wrong if you ignored their intended meaning and try to tell them that the word they used means what you say it means even if what you say it means is not what they meant when they said it.
"I'm feeling quite gay today."
"Gay means homosexual."
"Oh, I meant it as in 'happy,' I'm feeling quite happy today."
"No, no, it means homosexual so you said you are feeling homosexual today, that is what you said, even if you don't think you said it, you did say that."
Can you see how retarded it is to tell someone that their word usage puts them in the same box as a bigot when their intent and meaning is NOT bigotry?
If I say the word faggot when discussing this topic, I have not suddenly engaged in casual bigotry against myself simply for having used the word. If I say "hey fags, have some dicks!" and post a load of gay porn, I am clearly not being bigoted against homosexuals. If I am speaking negatively or critically or derisively about homosexuals and using the word faggot as I do so, THEN I am being bigoted. No matter how many people make the argument you've made, MOST PEOPLE are MORE than capable of identifying actual bigotry when it is happening, and it is NOT the non-bigoted usage of these charged words that clouds the subject or gives cover for active bigots. Anyone with half a brain can tell the difference between a gay man saying 'faggots' harmlessly and a homophobe using 'faggots' as a slur. The biggest factor interfering with that clarity is people like you acting like ALL usage of a word is some form of bigotry.
It's not "casual bigotry" to use a word in a non-bigoted manner. People say "that's gay" and DON'T actually mean "that is something homosexuals do, and for that reason, it is bad." They just use gay as a synonym for stupid/lame, just as gay USED to by a synonym for happy. The usage of the term is not the problem. The problem is whether people are telling kids the REALITY of the situation as I just described, or if they're telling kids "that is a direct insult and slur to you, you gay kid, because they're saying YOU are stupid and lame for your sexual orientation."
People are marginalized when they are taught to feel marginalized by this shit. People who can tell the difference between actual bigotry and someone simply saying a word - and there are many - can hear all these slurs and not give half a shit because they either weren't conditioned to freak out and take it as enormous personal offense OR they figured out for themselves how pointless and self-destructive that is. If I see the word "faggot," I do not have an instant emotional response of feeling offended and insulted and marginalized. I look at the intent and context of the usage. If someone is being a bigot, it will be obvious, and then it is their bigotry I will react powerfully to, NOT just that some word was used.
Calling people bigots when they are not is the BEST fucking way to make someone not give a shit about whether you think they're a bigot or not. COUNTLESS people have been through situations where they've gone from caring very much to not appear bigoted to anybody, to just not giving a fuck what someone thinks because there are people out there doing what you're doing and no matter what you say or do, SOMEONE is going to say you're being racist/sexist/homophobic because people so infuriatingly wrongly reduce the concept of bigotry to "he said one of these words, so he's a bigot."
The proper response when someone tells me I am engaging in bigotry when I am NOT doing so is to explain what I have tried to explain here, and when that fails, tell them to fuck off.
Personally, I find it amusing how you are engaging in the very things you are decrying in the process of decrying them. Specifically saying that people shouldn't engage in certain types of speech, (free speech means that I am just as free to criticize what you say as you are to say it), and ignoring context, (we are talking about slurs, "that's so gay" is a slur, "I had a gay old time" is not).
One importing thing you are missing is that most of the time someone engages in casual bigotry they are not aware that they are doing it. What this means is that when you are called on it you don't need to jump to the classic defensive reaction of "I'm not a bad person!" because that's not what you have been called. When you are called on a casual bigotry, you are being told you made a mistake.
To make an analogy to physical harms: Active bigotry is like punching someone in the face while casual bigotry is like throwing your arms wide without looking. When you hit someone by doing the latter, do you respond to their "OW! Watch it!" with "I didn't intend to hit you so you shouldn't be hurt and don't you dare tell me to watch where I'm swinging my arms!"?
And even though you deny it: The underlying meaning of things like "that's gay" is a comparison to homosexuals just as calling something "retarded" references the disabled. Would you be making that intent argument about things like "jewed" being used to mean cheated?
But no, all the victimization crap, and shit like "privilege" tells people in Group X that nobody outside of Group X can ever have any kind of valid perspective or assessment of anything unless they just agree with anything and everything the person bitching is bitching about. I am so beyond god damned sick of seeing that fucking shit non-argument falling out of the asses of every misguided NOBODY OFFEND ANYBODY person that stumbles into an actual discussion of pretty much ANY conflict between people. >XC
I don't fault people for the noble intentions, but it really is FAR more harm than good when people validate and capitulate to the irrational (even if entirely understandable) "this makes me feel ____" reactions of people who have perceived themselves as being victimized when the ONLY thing making them a victim is that perception of being one. :/
If a woman has been victimized, yes, it is absolutely understandable that she's going to have fears and worries about being in an elevator with a strange man. But those are still EVERY BIT as irrational and invalid as a person who was mugged/raped/nearly killed by insert-ethnicity-here and forever after is nervous and afraid of people of same ethnicity.
A woman being fearful of men who have not actually done anything to them just because some number of men HAVE done something (no matter what that number may be or what they actually did) is NO DIFFERENT than white dude being suspicious of blacks who have not done anything to arouse suspicion (no matter how many times the white dude may have actually been robbed by black people).
That said, I agree with you on many of your points. I'm getting tired of all the self victimization going around, and this talk of "cis" this and "privilege" that. Like I can't be sympathetic and passionate towards others just because I'm not on the same level as them. And by the same token, that I must watch everything I say and have to agree with the way everyone else defines their morals, and if I disagree I'm a terrible person and a bigot...
It's just a problem when people act like the fear is entirely rational and justifies acting and speaking as if it is acceptable to treat all people of category X as all-but-confirmed ________.
I had thought I'd seen how crazy people on the internet can be, but NOTHING has come close to the extremes of irrational, illogical, insanity to slog through when I first started seeing the term 'cis' and decided to look into it more. I don't think anything is more damaging to the cause of Trans people trying to gain understanding and acceptance than the discovery of a term they can use for "everyone else." It's a conversation-stopper every time it comes up. I almost never see it used except to say "you're either trans or you're cis, and if you're cis, doing anything other than accepting every single thing we say and want is you being a bigot and discriminating against us - you can't ever understand so stop trying, stop asking questions, stop saying you care because you don't/can't, just shut up and do what we're telling you to do."
With every group that is ever discriminated against, there's this part of the push for equality and acceptance that veers off into isolation and separatism, and superiority. Some people just want to give back what they feel they've been subjected to, and can't understand that doing so without regard for whether or not their target had any real part in what they're retaliating against is no different or better than what they went through. You have the man-hating feminists, the white-hating black supremacists, even the gays have people that treat all straights as homophobes and want to get all in their face with their sexuality. You have a group of people who just want equality, and then you have a group within that group who want some kind of payback or retaliation and end up obstructing the path to equality.
And if there were more people in the world with your level of understanding and your ability to reason with how something was in tended?
The world would be a better place.
Shame we don't live in a perfect world, eh?
Also, just a little note: most people involved or reading this argument/whatever will not read your message due to the large quantity of text...
But I read it because you seem like a smart person, so I read it and I agree.
Send me a 'Note' some time, I'd like to talk to someone with some sense ^^
I didn't know who to reply that to lol, i'm just reading everything and i'm like
".....i wonder if they know that there is a note/pm system on here?"
Plus getting "but my friends call me fag and I don't mind" back from one guy, and getting called it as well by random people...kinda sets things off :v
But that difference is that with a friend, you >know< they do not mean it as a slur or insult. You know the friend's intent behind the word is harmless. With a stranger, you don't know the intent automatically, you have to actually examine the statement for context and determine what their intent was before you know how to react to the word being directed at you. Some people can't process that and simply jump to "this must be an attack against me," and that's just as foolish as the people who insist that every stranger should take all their speech the same way they'd take it from a friend.
The point is, the crucial and relevant factor is the speaker's >intent< with their usage of the word. Far more often than not, you can tell whether someone is being amicable or insulting. If someone is being insulting, it is that intent to insult that justifies the negative reaction and response, NOT just that they used a charged word in an ugly way.
With something like the journal you originally remarked on, it is obvious his intent was to insult. He was using 'fag' as a derisive term. But there was no indication that he meant it as a specific reference to homosexuals, or that he used the word in any way differently than any other number of generic insult terms, like asshole or douchebag or fuckface, etc, etc.
Nobody wants a term that could be a descriptive label applied to them used as a general insult term. It's understandable to see a word used as a general insult, and feel "hey! I'm one of those! He just insulted me!" but that's making something personal when it likely was not intended to be. For example, let's say I call someone a shit-shoveling clown. Am I being bigoted against anyone who may actually be employed as a clown in a circus or rodeo and as part of their job has to shovel up animal crap? Would we expect the person employed in such a job to understand that I was not intending to be insulting him or his profession, that I was merely throwing expletives and being insulting to the individual(s) who were the target of my remark, and not displaying some kind of blanket judgement or bigotry to anyone and everyone with a specific profession? Or would we see someone go "Hey, that's what I do for a living, you're being bigoted against me!" and apply that intent to my words without regard for whether or not that intent was really there?
Obviously broader terms are much more commonly and intentionally used as bigoted slurs, but it should still be everyone's responsibility to be able to distinguish an intent to insult and an actual attitude of bigotry, from someone just using a word that different people will find distasteful to VASTLY differing degrees.
In other words, all of us who are not bigots can surely agree that bigotry is bad, and wrong, and someone doing it needs to be judged negatively and receive negative undesirable response to try and dissuade and eliminate that behavior and those attitudes. But reducing it to simply whether or not a certain word is used - and not requiring any more thought than that or any examination or consideration of actual intent - means, plain and simple, that a LOT of shit that IS NOT bigotry gets labeled as bigotry, and as such, a lot of people not being bigots get called bigots. Anyone who has experienced bigotry is likely to have seen how the more examples there are of frivolous and invalid accusations of X, the more likely it is for people to not treat X seriously, and dismiss it as just people making noise about nothing. Racism, sexual harassment, whatever it is, every time someone sees a claim of it when it's plain as day that that's not what happened, they become that little bit more likely to not give as much consideration to the next claim of it.
Now imagine you're gay, and been in the closet for a long time, and all around you hear people using the term gay or fag, meaning stupid. Most people would still associate the term with being gay, and would think "See? It is bad to be gay!"
Words have an immense impact, because usually, somebody will be within earshot, and what is said will affect them somehow.
It's honestly all about the context in which you use it. I'm a female, and there's no question women aren't 100% equal in society. There is a double standard with female sexuality (women aren't supposed to want it, but are expected to be attractive and sexually appealing). So words like slut, cunt, bitch and etc come from those kinds of notions. I have been called a bitch by my friends, don't care. It doesn't make me feel bad. I've been called a bitch by others who aren't and then it's when it's a little bad. People aren't the same, and what offends some people may not offend others, I understand.
That being said, no one can censor things they will say. If you're constantly worried about offending someone, nothing would ever be said. There are appropriate times and places for such things. But in the world, especially on the internet, such words happen, do, and will continue to. I don't like it when people tell me what I can and cannot say - like their sense of what is right and acceptable trumps mine.
I do understand what you're saying, and it's sad when anyone is treated negatively, or told to feel ashamed of themselves for one reason or another. But that's the same with any word, unfortunately.
The reason using terms like "fag" or "retarded" as insults is a problem is not that you are saying "you are homosexual/mentally challenged" to the person being insulted it that you are saying "being homosexual/mentally challenged makes you a bad/undesirable person". This is true _even if it is not your intent_.
Also note that I am not simply talking about offence, but the actual societal effects of engaging in casual bigotry. If it was just offence it wouldn't be a problem but the marginalization it contributes to is a problem.
One further thing: The problem with 'slut' is not primarily in it being a gendered slur but in it being sex-negative. Just being female doesn't give you a pass on that one, (not that internalized bigotry gives you a pass in the first place).
[1] Also note that the marginal group's usage is typically not as an insult.
It's like how a man is not likely to think about the issues a woman is going to worry about when riding the subway late at night.
Also, I'm a woman, so your fallacy amounts to shit, because in your eyes, I'm not the "privileged white man." Not like you care though, just from your tone and your comments I can see you have the tumblr mentality of accusing everyone else of your problems and making yourself and every LGBT person a victim of the evil privileged people who are so intent on keeping them down.
I'm done with this talk if you're going to result to spewing the word bigotry and privilege every time I don't agree with you.
(Using North American society)
Yes, men are privileged over women however:
Someone who is white is privileged over someone who is black.
Someone who is cis is privileged over someone who is trans.
Someone who is straight is privileged over someone who is gay.
Someone who is abled is privileged over someone who is disabled.
It is also important to remember that being privileged, (in this sense), is not a be-all and end-all in how well you end up doing. The best analogy I have seen is John Scalzi's difficulity setting. All else being equal, an abled straight white cis male is going to do better than a disabled gay black trans female. It is quite possible for all else to be of greater magnitude than the effect of privilege, (e.g. your mother is Oprah), but that is like a faster runner still being able to win a race even though he gave you a head start.
The reason I used male privilege as an example[1]was to pick a source of privilege that puts you on the receiving end. Something where there was a good chance that you had personally experienced it or something close to it.
And again you continue to miss the point:
Casual bigotry is NOT about intent. Most of the time it is done without intent or even without one realizing that he or she is doing it.
[1] Specifically in how women have to put up with all kinds of shit, (and even danger), on public transit that men do not.
When you see someone attacking someone else, do you just stand there? I don't. I saw Luca being an ass to this other person and I said something. It's honestly none of Luca's business who uses what language to their personal circles. And if he is bringing that up to someone, then I should be able to defend them. I'm not "policing" anyone. I'm saying Luca and some others are offended by it. I'm saying it's the intent behind it and whom you use it with that matters. They are the ones trying to "police" people, by telling others they're NOT ALLOWED to say it. I'm telling them that they shouldn't expect others to cater to their sense of morals on this regard. I'm not saying the world revolves around me, like you stated the first time. I'm saying that their views do not trump the views of others, especially when they're trying to tell people what to do.
Luca stuck his nose into someone's personal business, slathering it all over this journal. He and others play the victim of words that are not directed to them, and take it upon themselves to be offended for everyone else's sake. I get if they are personally offended, they are right to feel that way if they so chose. That being said, they will be frowned upon if they try to tell everyone how to act, and tell them they're bad people for it. THOSE are the people who ruin things. The people who tell others how they should act - based on their own moral compass and treating it as superior to others. The people who come up and tell my friends they're being bigots even when we're using it lightly with only one another. The people who treat themselves as the victim of the "privileged" groups because of a word said in jest and try to police what others say. Those are the people who ruin things, the one who take up a crusade against a word and insult, degrade, and berate people for it for their own reason while mocking others'.
That it doesn't bother you isn't relevant because it's reasonable to expect that a lot of people will be upset/offended to see it. The only people who'd publicly use it either don't know or don't care and place their "freedom of speech!" before the minimal effort it'd take to ensure people don't have to suddenly stumble across shit that's genuinely hurtful. Whether it was snarled at them when they were bullied in school, or spit at them by family who threatened to kick them out of houses they'd grown up in, or wherever else.
tl;dr the correct phrasing for what they're trying to say would probably be "it's extremely unacceptable if you don't want to be a giant asshole."
If you do, then yeah, you can go rock that freedom to publicly shit on a group of people. I guess. God forbid you or anyone else should have to find a synonym, right? That's the ultimate violation of your dem rights. Oh nooo.
Again, not like you care, but I have a lot of friends who are gay who use it in such a way. There are plenty of people on BOTH sides who are homosexual and bisexual. Again, as said, I will NOT let myself be told what I can or cannot say just because someone's feelings may be hurt. If someone asks me not to talk to them in a certain way, I shall. If someone I'm talking to says "please don't use gay like that in front of me" I will apologize and try not to. But if someone comes up to me, who I'm not talking to or have nothing to do with, and tries to tell me I'm not allowed to say it, I'll tell them to fuck off because it's honestly none of their damn business what I say with my friends in my own time.
What you're doing is telling me that I'm not ALLOWED to say something because YOU don't like it. I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. Your morals and standards do not usurp mine, just as mine don't override yours. If someone wants me to respect their wishes around them and they're reasonable, I shall. If someone butts heads with me, then I have a problem. Again, this is YOUR opinions, just as many homosexuals don't feel the same way and say "I think it's okay if other people use it." You cannot take your own thoughts and apply them to law or higher up than other people. You can think I'm an asshole all you want, because you already have it set in your mind that I'm being homophobic. Go right on ahead, but I'm saying you and I see things differently and that's no reason to start treating me and talking to me like I'm "a giant asshole."
"So I guess you can't use the word fat, because it upsets a large amount of people and is hateful. Same with the word straight or cisgender, because it does the same thing."
Those words haven't been used to bully people, outside of some hypothetical isolated incident somewhere. They're not slurs.
"You know what, let's stop allowing people to say anything, and regulate every word in case it upsets a lot of people. Let's take a poll of how many people are upset by each word and then forbid them from saying it if it's so high and call it bigotry Oh, that's not the same thing you say? Oh, of course it's not, because it's ONLY different when used towards gender attraction, and not anything else. /heavy sarcasm"
Slippery slope argument. Nobody's saying "Let's stop using any word that upsets anyone", they're saying "stop using slurs".
"Again, not like you care, but I have a lot of friends who are gay who use it in such a way. There are plenty of people on BOTH sides who are homosexual and bisexual. Again, as said, I will NOT let myself be told what I can or cannot say just because someone's feelings may be hurt."
1. your ~gay friends~ not caring or not wanting to go through the hassle of telling you they care doesn't make it okay any more than a few people having a fetish for pain and being okay with it makes it okay to go around punching everyone
2. "being an asshole with my ~freedom of speech~ is more important than other people being hurt because I do what I want". Like I said, yeah! That's basically what you're saying. You're free to do it, but everyone else is equally free to call you out on it.
"If someone asks me not to talk to them in a certain way, I shall. If someone I'm talking to says "please don't use gay like that in front of me" I will apologize and try not to. But if someone comes up to me, who I'm not talking to or have nothing to do with, and tries to tell me I'm not allowed to say it, I'll tell them to fuck off because it's honestly none of their damn business what I say with my friends in my own time."
In private? Sure, whatever. On a public site? That's not just between you and your friends. And hell, not everyone has the bluntness to speak up when something bothers them; waiting for people to tell you to stop saying something that'll upset a lot of people shouldn't be necessary.
"What you're doing is telling me that I'm not ALLOWED to say something because YOU don't like it. I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. Your morals and standards do not usurp mine, just as mine don't override yours."
Actually what I said was 'If you do, then yeah, you can go rock that freedom to publicly shit on a group of people. I guess.' What you're saying is that you should be allowed to say it without people being able to inform you that you're an insensitive asshole when you do it. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
"Again, this is YOUR opinions, just as many homosexuals don't feel the same way and say "I think it's okay if other people use it." You cannot take your own thoughts and apply them to law or higher up than other people. You can think I'm an asshole all you want, because you already have it set in your mind that I'm being homophobic. Go right on ahead, but I'm saying you and I see things differently and that's no reason to start treating me and talking to me like I'm "a giant asshole.""
1. Again, using a few people as props and saying 'well they like it, so that makes it okay!' doesn't actually make it so.
Situation A, where people use slurs: Some people are upset, some hypothetical people aren't.
Situation B, where people don't use slurs: nobody's upset, and the hypothetical people who aren't are also happy.
In one situation, nobody's upset; in the other, plenty of people are. Since it takes minimal effort to make sure people are comfortable with not having to read slurs, not doing is it a pretty dick move.
2. "You're free to think I'm an asshole for saying whatever I want without caring about how other people feel about it, but stop saying it because it makes me uncomfortable!" Well, that's a pretty ironic objection.
Cheers dude. We just won't see this eye to eye, I'm afraid.
There was no need to be rude about it.
I'm so sick of seeing those freaking journals.
I got a few & was quite annoyed.
The journal enteries that I needed/wanted to look at pretty much got over looked due to *select all journals....delete all journals*
I hope the OP decides to put that $1111 to better use with something else.
I'm loving this. No more streaming messages for me :D
The only reason the $1111 spam-fest went high-gear was because of the fact that the guy is claiming to give away said money. When people see "WOW YOU TOO CAN GET $1111 LOOK!!!!!" it tends to get marginally more attention than "hey look i joined some raffle from some unknown artist" or even journals as descriptive as "Raffle". In most cases, journal reposts do nothing, except for high-profile artists.
In your example (unknown artists trying to advertise by forced reposting) it is ineffective because as nice as some people claim to be, most FA users are completely disinterested in artists they don't know, unless they actually see an example of said artist's work.
How To Buy Your Way to Popularity
I can see why the mods would want to ban it now.
Obviously I'm kidding. I don't mind this new rule. It never was that big a problem for me, but I can imagine these repost journals cause problems.
A few of my friends do this and we're discussing anatomy, pretty much, you're trying your hardest to get to whatever level your dream artist' level is. Don't get me wrong, it sometimes works though.
Inspiration sometimes gets watchers, and so does sharing, unlike the spam journals i see every day by 1 whom i'm not going to mention.
I mean, I never posted a million journals for auctions, nor did I constantly post reminders, but a reminder every few days was fine, I thought. Really not sure what I'm gonna do now. :/
Many people use adblockers. -I- use an adblocker. I've discovered many artists through REAL raffle reposts. not this bullshit 1111-attention whoring.
And my browser has stopped showing the ads, without ad blockers! Other people may have the same problem!
Not to mention I really like finding new artist that way. Noticed how I said New. A lot of them are, and the majority of the time probably are very busy to really sit down and draw like these Popufurs. I think it's only fare, I delete so many journals a day, but it isn't that hard to filter them out by going down the list. I work full time now and I don't find it ridiculous to have to do that. I watch exactly right now 837 furs. I hardly get to set down a night and go through them. I mean, if you don't want so many journals, and really don't enjoy art that much on an art site to help artist get out there, then don't watch so many people.
And I was homeless for awhile and it helped save my life to get by because of those Raffles.
Kind of bums me out to see this has to be marked as a problem that could be simple to solve
This
If you don't want that kind of stuff just use the FA filter. Seriously. That way those who aren't out for the artist, can just block all the unwanted journals. It will be a win win deal.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/fi.....finity-filter/
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/.....ocemkogl?hl=en
Everyone has a right to earn money how they want too. The people who don't think they should don't /have/ to pay them. It's an option. But for those who do want to help people out, and rather spend their buck doing that, let it be.
i think all together most people are confusing "signal boosting" journals and spam to win journals.
If friends of artists or previous clients want to voluntarily advertise for their favorite artists by posting journals about them or linking to their page, that sort of journal is still totally allowed and personally I think more valueable, because it shows the person posting the journal is genuine in their interest rather than being coerced by a prize or self-gain.
Its only the journals posted as part of some "raffle" either for money or art that are going to be banned. Artists are no longer allowed to require reposts or journals as entries to raffles. Which personally are often ignored and generally result in website lag here on FA.
Additionally, This ruling doesn't mean people can't still do raffles for their work here on FA..They could post a journal aksing for watches, then they could easily use outlets like twitter for hashtag events and other types of free spammy advertizing as entries. that method doesnt result in bogging down the technical capacity of THIS website. additionally its a double win because it gains them not only FA watchers, but Twitter followers as well, and who doesn't like having multiple advertizing outlets?
..and this statement is just dumb. What if people want to earn their money through theft and fraud? No on Owes you a living.
I'd like to think I have skill, that my art is good. Feel free to prove me wrong, though. But y'know, I joined FA late in the game, so I didn't have a good change to start off new and be awesome and stuff. But I'd still like to draw full-time as a profession, but sometimes networking and drawing in those new clients isn't easy, even if you have good art. I can name bunches of great artists that don't get the exposure they deserve.
But that article is a really good read. You'll get burnt out doing crappy stuff if you always take crap. Do what you love, love what you do!
Besides, I'm an Art major. So regardless I'm working on my art XD But I hear you. I see people all the time going "ERMAHGURD. MY DOG DIED AND MY MOM'S IN THE HOSPITAL AND MY CAR BROKE DOWN COMMISSION ME" and then you see them buying things instead of taking care of what's important. XD
And good luck on the Art degree. I'm in the same line, and have an education certification I'm working on beyond that, so I feel ya.
I do look for people to draw, either free or paid, I don't care.
True being paid, even €1 or a $1, would help...
I am a starting artist, I also just got out of school and sadly enough I can't find a job...
I'm apparently either not qualified enough or not experienced enough which I think is absurd as no one, coming out of school has experience...
But aparently I'm not qualified enough for those who don't care about experience as they ask a university degree...
I don't have the oportunity to go, not only the money is standing in my way for that... so right now I'm screwed.
I barely have time to draw, I barely have time for anything in fact as I'm constantly looking for an oportunity out of this situation...
While I don't push for people to pay me and people don't even want to commission me for free,
I still try to get by... I still put in the effort... not all people have the luck or skill to find a job...
And basicly, if people have the confidence that they can improve that way,
that they are good enough to be recommended, good enough to be watched by that many people...
good for them, cuz even if you give away free art, if your art isn't liked, no one will join
#done #pointmade
--Onni
In my opinion, a really bad move.
But in general quality wins out, I still believe that and it works well.
mine: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12128694/
other piece, posted at the same time: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12128682/
It has double the views and 5 favorites.
Ah well. In the end I may very well just close up shop here and try my luck doing business on inkbunny. Not in a "stomping my feet and taking my ball home" sort of way, no. More of a "resigned sigh I need to find a site where traffic is more evenly spread to be able to sell commissions" sort of way.
Just sayin'.
--Onni
oh yeah.. cuz its free..
and allows porn that DA does not...
and doesn't have deadlines or fees like working proffessionally like for a pay cite...
and doesn't have the completely shady nature of many chans and alternative threads..
theres tons of benifits to this site.
--Onni
Ease up on the journal restrictions
But I doubt it'll happen, so for now I suppose getting rid of them altogether is best :c
I mean, me, personally, I don't really mind raffle journals. If I don't like them, I don't get upset. It's not worth it.
But, I can see that it can cause site lag.
However, I still think that there's a lot of options that could be presented besides this...
Not in favor of the money raffle thing, but I do think the contest raffles do actually help artists get notice and exposure.
So, welcome to hell, unknows-yet artists.
In many cases this means submitting one-two works per month... which means almost no chance to get popular. Of course, the shitty YCH reminders(whcih are actually still allowed, just in journals, which is ever worse, because journals don't have NSFW tag) are different thing than an art raffle with the rule of advertise, which is fair. BTW everytime I see art raffle (of characters the winner choose) journal in my messagebox I enter it too, and otherwise I would never know about it. BTW I guess this new rule will reduce the number of art raffles drastically (of course assuming everyone will notice that the new rule was introduced!), because in most of cases(of these I've seen), the only point of art raffle is to get a chance to get found by new people who could +watch you.
Or one can just do the best art one can and deal with the fact that one is not likely ever going to achieve 1M popufur status. Then one can mope over that for a few minutes before one realizes that being a popufur really isn't all that much of an achievement. It's just a number. It won't make one a better person or artist, won't net one all that much more money, won't make one feel better about oneself, won't give one a blow job, won't clean one's bathroom, and won't cuddle with one on cold nights.
On the outside chance one does become popufur despite not doing porn or mediocre art-spamming, he or she will realize that one has A LOT more eyes on him or her and has to be careful about what he or she says and does because one gaffe and THOUSANDS of people will see it. Things are a lot more likely to blow up and blow up FAST with a popufur which has a fair chance of landing one on ED or Lulznet. The popufur will also find him or herself inundated with requests for free artwork and trade offers, complaints that one's prices are too high, whinging that one does not do enough art of personal interest subject X Y or Z, "look at me pissing on this big artist, aren't I ballsy" under the guise of critique, demands to share one's "magical" Photoshop brushes, tutorial requests, and a shitton of well intentioned "good job" comments followed by the sound of them immediately forgetting one's artwork because said artwork did not inspire them enough to arse up more than two syllables of what essentially amounts to the "YOU TRIED" star.
..................Eeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaanyway............... there are several ways to get popufur that don't involve spamming people's journals with BS raffles. (Personally, my favorite method for artists becoming popufur is for them to be kick-ass artists who work hard and earn the pageviews they get rather than spamming or annoying people.)
Just my two cents. Or maybe more like twenty cents. :P But there you have it nevertheless.
As for me, hey, I've worked my ass off to be what artist I am. I may not be very popular, but, hey, at least I've worked for it!
Skipping the whole popufur thing---totally agree on a lot of it---social/network marketing is important for any business. I mean, I've been paying for ads for years; I can't say that I'm the perfect ad-maker, but, I've put in the ca-ching for it, which is kind of cool. The problem with a LOT of artists doing this, though, kind of comes down to market saturation/people even being able to SEE your ad. I mean, if you got 70 people at once doing ads, and you're one of the 70, you're not going to get as much exposure. I think that there could be more options implemented to increase the exposure of artists without just...killing everything. Not that I really post anything like that in the first place, but, eh. I'm just sure they could be some more options on both sides.
People will always want something for free. And complaints my art is too much (screw them.)
I just enjoy being able to do what I love, and I like being able to help out other artists, too. (Features, wooo!)
Anyway, I'm gonna shut up now.
CYA LATER.
In most parts you're right, but I feel something is missing.
To me the, let's say 'guality' of watchers counts a bit too; I don't want to end up as a porn artist who gets a lot of 'I'd do her/him' & RP kind of comments, I don't want to be commissioned for porn only(or maybe I'll disable porn commissions at all someday, but it would be possible if I won't be considered a porn artist only). Of course I want to draw adult rated images (and I do), but rather for me and my beloved (with whom I share this account BTW; but because he doesn't post art (yet) I'll call it 'my gallery' instead of 'ours' in this comment) than for yiffy furs who don't care about love and try to gain popularity by yiffing with random fursonas(by YCHs, commissions, holding raffles of 'have sex with my sona' type, etc.) - which is one of the aspects you forgot about. This 'fenomena' annoys me the most in here - fighting for popularity via becoming an (art)whore.
And I agree with your 'porn sells no matter the quality' statement, I've noticed that in my FA gallery too(sample: NSFW http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10542546/ vs SFW http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9983788/ ; NSFW http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10200967/ vs SFW http://www.furaffinity.net/view/9969106/ and NSFW http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11818931/ vs SFW http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11144480/ - which has over 830favs(while in general I have 117favs per sub) on DA BTW, so the difference between DA which bans porn vs FA actually famous from being porn is HUGE).
Which is interesting as well, I noticed that DA is much larger than FA but an average number of watchers tends to be higher on FA, as long as the user submits porn. (In my case it's not like that, but I've been active on FA for less than 1year)
1M watchers you say... Ekhm... 0,5M would be a better sample...
Well, I tried my best on DA (actually, most of my DA works are not good for FA because are not animal-related at all, so I can't realy show my best quality works in there:() and I earned 960+ watchers in over 5years in there but actually, to be honest, many of them are abandoned accounts, and the rest rarely respond to me. I was the high-quality&seldom posting type of artist. When I compare to some famous people, e.g. Griffsnuff, who posts very often but these are like max 15min doodles mainly(I don't mean she can't draw of course), which, which is shoking to me, are very often on the first page of most popular in past few hours(or longer, Idk, cause I have it set to in 8hours) with a few thousands of favs. That proves the rule 'quality over quantity' is not so true in case of gaining popularity itself. However, it is important e.g. in case of commissions and earnings. And self satisfaction of course.
But I disagree about money part: with 215 watchers on FA I have NO point to organise any kind of auction, because there would be actually no people to bid(it would be a success if I had a 30$ bid on a full-detaild multiple characters one I guess:(), while, comparing to those who have over 20k watchers, who can be pretty sure their auction ends with 100$+ bids (like e.g. Tojo who actually ends with over 200$ bids). I can also see a difference in the number of commissioners. I have free slots all the time even though, minding people who draw worse than I do and have higher prices as well as popular artists or those who actually make a living with their art, my prices are low (but still higher than my previous, riddiculusly low prices on DA). I have too few watchers(and those who can afford buy art are a very low percent usually, I guess), I can feel it. Same with journals with questions for the watchers - very few responses, usually 0-3 people, or even an art raffle (3 participants from FA, one or two of these were not my watchers when the raffle was posted!) (I think I had a bit less than 200watchers then). Sadly, popularity DOES count in terms of earnings.
Actually, I don't think all these requests and so on are a problem... The sollution is simple: refuse if you can't or don't want, explain or agree, the artist can't get forced to do any of these things. About haters: hiding comments and blocking, people on FA do it more frequently than on DA.
And what are those? Besides doing your best and art 'spamming'? Or have a very popular friend who'll promote you? And without becoming a porn artist or (art)whore? Would you like to share?
:P And I agree with most of what you wrote, but I just felt I have to add some things.
http://help.furaffinity.net/article.....vertising.html
that way it's a much larger coverage then people spreading journals.
1st of all: money. I'm poor, the other Draffectionate is as well - especially if everything is converted into $, 20$/month is quite much to us... I don't earn money yet, besedes occassional commissions I'm working on inbetween having classes, studying and simply: living. And I WILL NOT earn 20$/month to pay for the ad. NO.
2nd: the FA ads are too easy to block: AdBlock kind of stuff and all are gone (I enjoy the blessings of that myself), so, hm, I don't like the idea of paying for sth so easy to block. NO.
I also don't have a guarantee the right people will see my ad, because these show up so randomly that it can happen + AdBlock of course.
For sth I can't be sure will bring any effect 20$ is too expensive.
But MAYBE someday if I have plenty of time, enough saved money etc. I'll reconsider. Maybe it'll be about commissions, maybe about my WIP novel if it's ever published and translated into English, I don't know yet... But at the moment it's a big NO.
But thanks for trying.
Look, this is how it is: The best way I know of to get people to see your artwork is to get them to favorite it and show it around. The best way to make people favorite your art is to make good art, porn, fetish, humor, or niche. That's the way the art world works. You are NOT going to get people to pay attention to you by annoying the shit out of them with journal spamming, you're just going to piss them off. If you want views and attention, you need to do something worth viewing and worth paying attention to.
I find artists by looking through the favs of people I have watched before. THAT is how one gets noticed. Be the very best you can be. Be different. Either have a unique style, draw something funny, something relate-able or just downright gorgeous.. Try new things. Be bold. Draw because you want to be an artist, not for the pot of gold at the end of it.. because it doesn't exist. If you want lots of money, get a well paying desk job. Art is a labor of love.. you have to love it, or you can't do it. Sooner or later you will burn out.
All that sounds perhaps harsh, but I've been there. All of it. I've been shitty (I got better by drawing stuff for friends, for free). I've sold art at a point that I was making $2 an hour.. I'm not one of the furry greats and damnit there are days I wish I could charge $200 for a sketch of big throbbing horse flesh. I've drawn porn to make a buck. I have despised myself for drawing it. Moral of the story is: stay true to yourself, to your art, do what feels right to you, make friends not watchers.. make art you love. In time it all falls in place and before you know it, you get a note asking if you do commissions.
Don't start charging too early. Don't hunt for watchers. They will find you, if you just do your thing.
That should make you understand even better that each 20$ is precious and shouldn't be just wasted-_- You'd worship every single cent.
And you seem forget about differences between countries... For an American a 1$ is actually less than for a Pole, same with €, to show you the difference on a reallife example I know about best: 1€=~4,20PLN+ but e.g. an average ice sream (on a stick) costs about 2€ in Germany(Berlin) and 2PLN(or less) in Poland(both big cities and smaller towns). A German earns more €s than an average Pole PLNs, which makes an even greater difference in actual worth of PLN in comparison to €. I'm not saying I'm that poor in Poland, but I'm poor in Germany and USA, if not worse than just poor. And while this is mainly an US site, I'm speaking in the context of America, Europe, but not Poland where I live. If you now wnt to Poland you'd pay far less PLN to survive in there as a student. I actually need 550PLN/month for the accomodation(including bills) while I'd have to pay about 6400LN to pay your bills if you mean 2k $). So you know... Now imagine how much is 20$ to me.
More or less. Still, raffles used to do their job.
No one is saying you can't do raffles. What you can't do is WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH ME WATCH MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. That's what's at contention here. You can still do raffles and put up the occasional reminder, I think....? But you just can't spam people or demand that other people spread word for you. At least that's my understanding of the situation as it stands right now.
In some cases I'd rather call it 'promising sugar but not giving it, no veigar to replace it, but just giving nothing'^^
Hm, I don't see anything about ban of 'watch me to enter' rule... The update is about a ban of requiring to spam with journals in order to enter a raffle, not the 'watch me' thing - which is not seen as site spam...
Makes more sense now.
Still, hardwork is not enough on FA, which is sad to me.
on FA it's much more not about art quality than on e.g. DA... On FA one needs to post fome porn to get some favs, watches, views... on DA one mustn't post porn, so the 'fenomena' doesn't happen in there, but still, popularity is gained via raffles and luck, not just the art quality. These sites are somehow similar but still there is a visible difference especially while DA bans porn which is in most( or lat least many) of cases the base on FA.
Still, e.g. tojo-the-thief and narse have more watchers (over 20k and almost 35k), just to mention. But of course I know porn is not a must-be to become popular on FA, I never disagreed about it, I guess I even mentioned that somewhere, but, well, I made too many comments on this announcement page to remember exactly ^^
BTW I think it annoying that a so much porn oriented site has so cute and innocent banners, it looks like it's supposed to attract minors actually which argues with the actual content... FA, on the first sight, looks more like a children-oriented anthro site... If I were a parent and never knew about FA and saw my child having it open on the banner, I would have never thought this site might be so much inappropiate&dangerous for a child/teenager who doesn't understand the difference between porn and reality yet and who would follow the fluffy 'cuties' and sex RPing users and became a whore, made a baby, or even found rape as sth sexy and natural... (Let's not forget minors are interested in learning new things, especially as taboo as sex tends to be, so they'll do everything to see +18 contents and no parent can really check everything their child meets online, even if they're overprotective - and even young people like me - I don't even check the NSFW subs before Tom verifies them for me and deletes all non-solo +18s, so you know... - have and always had more or less interest in at least erotica... Heck, I even write an erotica novelO_o But I can't stand most of adult-rated pics on FA because of the contents hurting my feelings). What I'm saying here is that the banners are very misleading here... And I don't mean they look bad, e.g. I love the current one, but just misleading about the site's type.
Of course, I actually draw what I want. I'm also selective on commissions contents according to my own rules(I had to disagree on one idea so far, so it's not bad so far^^;). I'm even considering a removal of non-solo porn from my commission offer and restrict sexual non-slolo contents to my private art only, or at least to be very selective on characters I agree to draw in sexual situation together... That could help me protect my peace of mind and more or less avoid watchers/commissioners of the artwhore type and attract mainly those that worship what I do: Love not lust.
Well, I wish I(we) had 15k watchers xD *dreamy face*
There's a disclaimer and an age limit that you have to actively switch off and lie about if you're a minor to get to the porn. If minors interact in a lewd manner, I think that it's on their merit and the merit of whoever they interact with, not the site itself since it doesn't cater to that. FA is pretty strict with the underage thing, so if it is exploited, it's not directly FA's fault like it wouldn't be DeviantArt's or any other art forum's.
Me personally, I haven't seen any underage activity, or it flew over my head if I did since I don't particularly pay much attention to the social aspect of FA unless it's involved me, but I think there's enough checks in place for personal responsibility.
It's still FA who decides what image is used as their banner... If they had more appropiate banner, a parent wouldn't so easly calm down after seeing such innocent and childish banners...
Of course, FA can't make monors not lying about their age... btu actually, putting a disclaimer that there are porn contents only encourages to lie aboth the age... I believe FA should at least try to improve on that matter, including some consultation with phychologists, sexuologists etc. in order to work out on how to not attract the minors so much, how to make most of them not lie about their age...
I'm not into that, but I'm wondering, if it would anyhow work if there was no disclaimer before one sets their birthdate and hits the join button... so if sb chooses birthdate that makes them less than 18 they would not see anything about adult contents(so they wouldn't find out that they might have a reason to lie about their age), but if they set a date that makes them +18 they'd get the warning they might see a lot of adult images... and of course hte NSFW filter automatically on. For the minor the warning would pop up(e.g. via system note) when they hit 18 years old. I would save at least those who never heard FA contains porn. There should be also a comment next to the birthdate setting that says that no information about sb's age is going to be displayed unless the user changes this in the settings - so the minors won't have a reason to lie about their age when registering in order to just not be seen as 'more stupid because they're young' by other members. Just some ideas to think over and maybe improve.
it could also be helpful if there was a disclaimer that not all activities from the +18 works are to be followed/are right/moral/are safe etc. (e.g. so popular accidental sex with no condoms and no risk of venereal disease and pregnancy... let's face it: furries don't take care of making believable, making sense and consequent +18 contents... It could at least help a little bit to those who don't understand such things yet for various reasons and who are unaware of 'what's popular on FA is not necessairly how the things are in fact'.
I do feel like, just like Furry cons and the like, I would be more comfortable if it were a strictly adult-oriented site (age rather than content), but some artists and watchers that are cool with the SFW barrier would flip their shit since it's actually somewhat relatively clean when you have the filter on, about on par with DevArt, with stories and music included in the mix to peruse. I've even had some of my Watchers say in the comments of my clean art that they knew I did hentai and would wait til they hit 18 to see it, and while that was TMI to me, I thought it was cool that they were actually following the rules.
The social and psychological aspect of this; I think this is a big deal not particularly cuz of the minors that can potentially sneak on (though it's a concern and I'm sure happens, I'm sure it's p minimal and is regulated), but because of the stigma around sex in general in many cultures and with many people leading to this sort of catering and reassurance that the hentai isn't a social staple in the Fandom when it clearly is.
Looking at the Fandom from a 'normal' perspective, people dressing up as cute foxdudes and being portrayed by an anthro Tails from Sonic the Hedgehog is sort of different. That anthro Tails being strung up by the nutsack and beaten by an aluminum bat is even weirder, but it would be just as weird if it were human chars on say, Y!Gallery, which has an inadvertent but strong manga/anime twist. And, just like anime, Furry can be for kids, but there is a very strong, unmistakable adult aspect to it. If you show even clean Furry art to somebody who's 'normal', they'd prolly laugh and go on about people fucking in fursuits and the like by default. Anime, you think, if it's not Pokemon, it's people fighting and blood and gore, some cases tits and tentacles. And gods knows how many parents flip their shit if they found that that cute anime is usually the abridged, edited version!
So I stick to the whole disclaimer thing when you sign up telling you what you need to know. It's int he ToS and AuP, and people know about Furries, if they're coming to FA, outside of the occasional rare innocent soul that is new to the Internet, they're here for Furry art, knowing all of what 'Furry' entails.
If you want clean and safe, while yes, FA has its filter, it's safer to be on DeviantArt (also with filter on). The ones that stay on the site with the filter on are fine or are settled with the fact that while there is porn on FA, it's still a huge, if not the biggest, source of Furry content. Like Is aid earlier, people are thinking too much about it; if underagers do try to solicit sex and/or has porn on their page and you catch one, report them like you would on DeviantArt or any other site. Otherwise, outside of the occasional slipthrough, they should be seeing p much what they see on DeviantArt unless they knowingly lie about their age and break the rules.
It's just a huge, serious problem, of minors facing porn and learning bad things from it... I know a few samples of people who now have actually no actual knowledge and no morals in sexual things becuase they were too young when exploring the site. They're already lost... I know a destroyed 14-year-old(pf course, wanted to seee 100% of the site...)... Noone can help him anymore... It's shattering, I feel so helpless and sorry for people like him.
The thing is it influenced on them TOO deeply.
On getting popular, I don't think spamming is the way to go. I've got a few watches down just from, well, putzing around and doing trades with people, though yeah, I do enjoy doing hentai. I also don't take it seriously enough to try and catch onto trends and the like, I just do what I do, yanno?
lol Hell, I don't even see it as an 'artist's journey' cuz I honestly see FA as a sort of tailored audience to anthro/feral art, and well, porn. DeviantArt I see as testing my mettle, and sites like CGHub and ConceptArt.org push limits and humble the fuck out of me while I use what I learn to further art across the map, hentai or not. I think that some artists on FA, insanely talented or still growing, stint their growth trying to be this big fish in a small pond, yanno?
But doing the freelance art thing, yeah, I can see the allure of a quick buck, and there's nothign wrong with it. I think that's sort of what's happening is people marketing, getting that quick buck even if it's burining their bridges, and I know how it can be annoying! I think I just see the sort of 'logical chaos' that goes down, and I honestly wish that FA would update some aspects of their site like making a new alert section for commissions, cuz folks on FA don't generally read [journals], and while I don't think that promo/YCH posts shouldn't be in the Submission section, I understand the spamming for attention that they can't really get otherwise. Not condoning it cuz it's annoying as as hell, just sayin I get why lol
I think it just sorta sucks that something that should be so casual and fun has become this bitter chore, yanno?
In general I agree.
All I can add is just that those ''spam to join' raffles had sth in them, I wouldn't never found out about almost any of these, about the aritsts and so on.
Wait, i am already watching you.
HEY GUYS! WATCH SILVERONE!!!!
I placed an add up and got quite the load of commissions. If you offering regular commissions not so much But themed piece such as a card deck or a larger scale YCH auction would be ideal if your low on cash. out of the people that placed bids on my auction out of 50+ only 10 ish of them where watchers before hand. The'a 4 out of 5 turn around, or about 80% of them.
If you want people to notice you try giving out some free work, people love free things and they show art work off.
Another thing you can do is do gift art for artist's you like in the community they fave it or resubmit it (considering your art work is very well done) that in it's self not only will make you feel good by doing something nice for other's but it help per mote your art work.
If you keep looking at it like "I can't do this due to blah de blah" Then you never will.
I have scraped my self out of horrible issues by using my art work. If Fa is slow on commissions try selling your work to local shop's. Tattoo parlors and cafe's. Some will display the piece and leave a price tag on it in hopes some one will buy it.
You need to focus less on how with out the pimp watch me journals are gone and more on Now that you can't use this method How can you get your name out there for more commissioners to take notice.
For one Post more art!
By posting more art people will see you more on the Fa front pages and it will draw more attention to you.
Do gift art for artist you like ( i know i mentioned this already)
by doing work for people you like, you can attract people that also like that person they see what a wonderful job you did on some one they admire they will likely come to you to something similar for them.
Try lowering your prices?
I know when I need some cash fast i'll do commissions for cheep. Mostly of thing's i can do fast. Like icons or Bust shots. Or do some Name Your own price commissions.
Try giving out a free sketch once and a while it draw so many people in. If you can stream your art work ( programs / web sites like join me, live stream, or what have you) offer a free sketch as a warm up. People will flock to your stream for the opportunity of a free anything, and many will continue to watch you while you work on what you owe.
Talk to people and comment,
Not all "popufur" or "popular" artist are stuck up's. In fact most of them enjoy meeting new people and like to not be treated as if the are ontop of the world. Just talk to people and let people go " Oh who's this?" they see your work Bam they watch you and take intrest in your work.
The whole point of this is If you want to become a well known artist you have to network, You need to get your name out some how. If mass advertisements aren't available to you then you are going to have to work a little harder. Net work Let people find you, then with your talents your ( cause frankly all of your works are Extreme well done and makes go Why don't you have more people watching you?) they will watch you for the fact they like you and your work.
I have lot's of loyal commissioner's, they are people I have networked to find and they have become good loyal friends now.
By communicating, you are getting your name out. People in this community LOVE to talk, so talk to more and people will find you.
You have a point, however I'm not eager to get into the comminity, I consider myself to be too much different form furries, the only thing I have in common is the species I like to draw, so art itself. Actually most of people on FA are not really the people I would talk with privately, I'd feel uncomfortable in most of cases and knowing my 'luck' I would start a conversation with the wrong guys. I have to be more like using my art than social skills(I lack), I'm also not a very social kind of person (I've always been)^^; But as I said, you're right in general.
As for the ads, I'll see what the future brings. Thank you for sharing your experience^^ And for the complements and watch too!
see how being talkative can get you new watchers?
Thanks ^^ :P
Heh, I never disagreed with you on this actually^^ I just said it's not the way I want to do things, (but of course I'll write some comments from time to time, because it's hard to not speak at all.)
I used to be a "bigger" or more "well know" artist Then I told people Nope I'm not drawing pron any more go spank it some where else. It really showed me who cared about my art work and me. I may have lost about 1,000 + watchers in doing so but frankly don't care.
I have my own moral, I have my own way of doing of thing's if my watchers can't respect me for it then I don't need them as commissioners.
I'm not a mindless art machine, I'm free a spirited, spit fire artist with her own emotions, values, and perspective. I would rather have a few good watchers and commissioners that value my art for what is, then a herd of sheep who bleat in a mindless zombie like state to me cause i draw them things get their junk wet. ( just my personal opinion need I remind you folks )
Ballsy No, I Think people are to sheepy to understand the true value of art work.
Frankly I believe that people need look into that value of hard work more.
I know I on occasion do a raffle here or there, but hardly get more then a few people cause i have this "rep".
I know I won't get many watcher I know I won't get many entries But I do because I want to. People who see with there own eyes tend to watch and view my work.
Again I would walk with people who i can have good argument with and agree with on other things then have a herd of sheep bleating, singing and praising my glory mindlessly.
Taya <3's!
I always wondered what happened to working hard to earn things. That was how i was brought up. I have spent 9+ years training and pushing my self making glass in the rapidly declining Venetian style of hand blown glass. I do not have that many watchers, and probably will not get many more any time soon, but i do not need to give away something forcing people to watch and then re-post my event.
I get that people want to be recognized and it feels good to get watchers. But for making them link back to you? Making them have to watch you? I feel stronger when people watch you because they like what they see, of what you can do. Having great examples of your work out on display tends to get a constant trickle feed of +watches. I got 2 or 3 in the last week from things i made almost a year ago. That felt nice. At this rate i should easily get over 5k watchers by 2140.
I understand the plight some artists have with this, but its not that bad, honestly. It is tough! It sucks for those looking for the quick impact they need, but it boils down to this; Work hard, Post the work and get as much of your best stuff out there so anyone can find it by searching/stumbling upon it, and also by word of mouth when others see it and refer their friends to you. Do not rely on re-posts to get people watching you, though that will happen when others say, "hey go check out this artist! I think they are really cool." (That is still totally allowed! ... i think) I found artists once or twice that way, and they are brand spanking new, with no comments, watchers, or journals. I have seen them come up from nothing into something brilliant. More often than not, its the ones that were consistent in posting and working hard to improve and get the work done that got popular.
TL:DR
People will watch you if your good at what you do, popular artists are where they are because they kept at it and worked their butts off. Most still do! They were "no-names" when they started out. Hell I still am. I just do not post that much but then its my fault for not trying; If you work hard, people will start to notice, it just takes varying amounts of time.
I am repeating my self now. I also just wanted to say i agree with you Silverone. Here's to working hard and someday having people give a crap for our efforts! :3
(if this offends anyone, then i apologize, but its not meant to. Its just my point of view on the topic.)
~Cyrix
Way to go in fighting for what is right!
Maybe that was his plan.
*rewritten to fix glaring errors - FA needs an edit system of some sort.
also, the requiring journal for raffles an' stuff. that's how artists on this ART SITE get any publicity, especially when they cant afford the FA ads (cheap as they are, some people just cant scrape that much extra money together). it's people like this kid and others that were spamming that half the time aren't even actually artists, or even doing an art raffle for that matter, that are actually causing the most spamming. i watch a little over 1,400 people (which i know by FA's user list isn't many at all) and on average i saw *maybe* one.. two.. art raffle journals every couple of days.. sometimes a little more if it's a more popular artist. but that doesn't bother anyone. you just hit delete and move on.
this is just the same problem i've had with a lot of things. punish the whole for the wicked few. it's not right/ok by any standard, when you have the means to only punish the few. (and i'm talking things like bans, suspensions or oh gasp! maybe actually programming the site so it's no longer aol 2.0/1995 status so we can have all the same features and abilities of every other art site out there.)
The ONLY way I see this working is if each artist starts creating a specific static image that we can use saying YCH REMINDER or AUCTION REMINDER with something of their art - much like we do with stream images. But honestly, I don't think this will change reminder spam at all. You're just more likely to get bland text at the front page saying the exact thing - or tons of images that are completely unrelated to what they are selling - which may or may not garner interest. And then really... when an artist uploads a 'reminder' via a static image do you think that will cut down on 'submission spam' or 'having to delete the same thing over and over'? Not at all. It just makes it harder to display and gather interest.
I however, have not liked the 'must post a journal to enter' thing. I refused to include that rule in my own freebies and contests simply because I hate seeing that rule and not being able to enter. Now what I mean by that is that I have every possibility to write up a journal and do so - but once you have a larger number of people watching you (like 2k+ for example)? It becomes somewhat annoying or spam-like to the people watching you to do that, even more so when several different people are holding different things and all want you to create 'a new journal advertising ______'. It becomes overwhelming for some people, especially when you have a lot of more popular artists doing so. Despite their good intentions, I feel it is also exclusionary to those mentioned above to 'require' this. Now, if people WANT to do it on their own without it being a requirement? By all means, go for it!
-thoughts and rants and things bleeeeeh-
Well, they say sex sells! haha~
You can do it! Everyone can do it if they want it and try hard enough! >3< But I suggest checking tumblr for art tutorial and references! There's a lot of good learning material and if you experiment and work hard at it, you'll definitely get there! ^___^
i've never gotten a hang of how tumblr works, particularly the search part, my impression of tumblr search as
of until now, is that it's hard to find popular/good quality stuff there orz
I don't mind commission notifications, But i do mind the chain spam, and the serial reposting of YCH images. even once is too much. I am unimpressed by the rise of YCH auctions in general that have blossomed since last spring, but seeing it pop up with scribbly text on the image, with poorly done porn poses multiple times a week is just a waste of my time. The reposting of variations was a rule before yesterday, it's just been more forcefully restated.
There will be no technical solutions to this, such as tags, filters and the like, and third party solutions don't work for those that surf this site on several devices, so any solution enacted has to be policy.
One can still post a single YCH image, and one can post a reminder journal, But they no longer can post Chain journals or "Spam to Win". If people are coming here with the expressed purpose of trying to make money from furry art, with ground level skills, they are sorely mistaken. However quality will win out in the end, it just takes work and a lot of time.
GENIOUS!!
That was already annoying the shit outta me...
FOR REALS...
XD
* runs to the kitchen and grabs some to nom QAQ! *
Of course the Administration is going to deny that this annoying Watch-Farming Raffle was the reason for these new rules, but we all know that it is.
I understand though, they don't want to single anyone out, but we're not stupid.
We have a winner here folks. No outlandish prizes required.
I'm 99% sure this raffle caused it...:(
I was to the point where I'd call someone immature and greedy, then proceed to unwatch them, if they pulled that reposting crap. But thankfully, not a single one of my 96 watched reposted it! :P
^By saying you can't "repost" a reminder it implies that you can post a reminder once.
I, for one, don't care one way or the other, but you might want to clear up the wording.
Just curious since this is how I've been doing mine for a while since I thought it already said you couldn't post the same image or slightly doctored versions in the upload policy. lol
Still it's unfortunate that people who offer far smaller things are also punished by this :(
Just dun repost reminders and such...
^This.
Yeah, not spam... not spam at all...
... statistically speaking it's to your disadvantage to repost, so the only reason anyone is doing so is because it's a requirement to enter.
I've been missing open commission journals and sale journals because of that raffle's stupid spam!
Hence this: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5211943/
I have tried this so as to eventually be able to start getting commissions in the future.....
There's better ways than a raffle to do free art. Free art is great for practice as well because there's room for error and learning. Also, a great place to advertise free art is through streams. That's been a rather successful way to make people happy.
Also there's a large danger in using the word 'free' because people become greedy and entitled. You don't ACTUALLY get the type of clients you might want by going 'free free free free free' everywhere. :)
And on the greedy thing. I've seen it get out of hand. And with I've had to deal with a situation like that on another site. And I have faith that I will be able to handle it again should the need to arise.
However, I will look into your suggestions and I do agree on the whole "practicing art for someone" in particular as I have low skills in certain areas and believe this may help. Thank you for this info.
And 'free art journals' don't directly boost income. They might boost watchers, but there's plenty of ways to do that, starting with maintaining good PR with your commissioners. A good friend of mine gets the most sales out of those that have already commissioned her because they get such a good experience each time. Such things aren't supposed to be easy, it takes effort and a positive attitude. :3
--Onni
It's sad that it has to go that far... But what happened lately was indeed over the top D:
If this existed anyways.
I know DA has just as many options in regards to what you want to watch from people. While I love FA, etc, don't get me wrong, I think some of the features could certainly be boosted to work with the times. OR, at the very least, start advertising, or make some way for new artists to be uncovered and featured. This would be healthier. It's not easy to just get into the art world. In the case of FA, it's pretty much just pr0n from what I see. Anyway, just more options could easily solve this problem, and I'm sure there would be many people who would donate their knowledge, time, or money to make the site better...Just saying.
o3o?
Obviously, a raffle offering $1K is going to generate a LOT more journal spam than a raffle offering an art piece.
Surely it would have kept a lot more people happy by just making a rule stating 'no cash or luxury items as prizes?'.
I'd argue that there are a lot of really good artists out there, but they have a handful of watchers. Taking the raffle posting thing away is just making it harder for truly talented new and unknown artists.
But I have to say that reposts of submissions for YCH raffles or auctions do my head in, especially when it nears one a day. Journals, not so much.
A few very popular raffles have been spamming the site to hell but it's because of things like money prizes and such, to me that's the issue, not journal spam.
An artist holding a raffle and asking for journals is a good way to gain exposure. Now why bother?
How would this affect raffles going on atm? Everyone else so far had to make one and now people don't.
What about people optionally deciding to make a journal linking to something? Is that allowed?
I know I will now now longer be offering free art, and I know many others will do the same.
It annoys me that legitimate artists are being punished on an ART site because of non-art prizes.
Nothing worth having ever comes easy. A fanbase built on spamming won’t last nearly as long as a fanbase built on great art and great relationships with your more loyal fans. Spamming may get you extra fans in the short term, but how long do you think that bump will last?
Calling raffles an easy route on a site with a bunch of people drawing porn with no grasp of anatomy and getting 50 favorites each submission is nonsensical.
If you have true talent in your field, it stands a high chance of getting noticed if you work hard enough and make a name for yourself through your creative works — but that can take years, and even then, it might not ever happen. Nobody deserves success; you earn it through hard work, determination, and improving your craft one day at a time.
But journal-spamming raffles take away all the actual work of making a fanbase from the ground up. You offer free art to a community where plenty of people don’t have much artistic/creative skill but plenty of ‘ideas’; those people will take you up on the offer and practically beat down your door for it if you have enough talent. And hey, who doesn’t want to get their name out there in the world and get a little attention? But doing it through raffles such as the ones now outlawed by FA don’t really get your name out there because you never know how many new watchers you’ll get and how many of them will actually pay attention to your art or just skip over it when they see it in your inbox. It’s a cheap and lazy ‘out’ to, as I’ve put it elsewhere, doing the fucking work.
Just as you need to practice with your art and learn new aspects about your field to get better at it, you also have to do the same with business tactics if you intend on using your artistic/creative skills as ‘self-employment’. A little free advertising can work magic, sure, but the magic eventually wears off — and it can leave you with a shell of what you thought you had. But some honest word-of-mouth advertisement combined with a little knowledge of how to capture the attention of your intended audience (e.g. furries) works far better in the long term, since that sort of attention happens in an organic way.
Your ‘fucking work’ doesn’t end with creating the fanbase for your creative output, though; now you have to manage that fanbase, and that can get tricky. Post the wrong piece of art or say the wrong thing in a comment, and all your hard work in making a fanbase can come crashing down in an instant. Journal-spam raffles and free art won’t save you from the wrath of an angry Internet mob and their digital torches — especially if people get screenshots of your gaffes.
You also have to create art on a regular basis if you expect to keep your fanbase, too. Anyone you truly consider a ‘fan’ will want to see new works from you on a regular basis; a failure to deliver can result in an artist’s worst enemy (obscurity) rearing its ugly head. People can and will forget about you if you don’t deliver new works regularly or fail to deliver what the ‘fans’ want — and, again, journal-spam raffles can’t save you from that.
So yeah, I have a problem with journal-spam raffles: they generally don’t take into account the years of hard work other artists put into honing their skills, creating a social network of fans and acquaintances, and crafting their online ‘brand’ in a way where their name gets tossed around in an organic and ‘real’ way. FA did the right thing by banning them; now everyone gets to play by the same rules — and people who relied on these raffles to make their name have to do all the fucking work instead of taking an easy way to ‘fame’.
Hallelujah, holy shit, I need a freaking drink.
Welcome to life. Grab a hard hat and get to work.
If you want more success — if you really want to turn your art into your job — you gotta do the fucking work of getting your name out there. You had this ‘easy’ option before, but now that you don’t, you gotta think of something different (and possibly better).
Don’t hand me that ‘I want to make this my career’ line if you don’t really want to put in the long-ass hours and nose-to-the-grindstone work necessary to do so.
I wish you luck in your future endeavours, but you know your situation better than I, so only you know what kind of fucking work you’ll need to do in order to turn your art into your career.
As I said: grab a hard hat and get to work.
Stupid spammy journals gets you nothing but folks who hunt for free art.. and they generally have 2000 artists they watch and have zero intention of ever commissioning you or posting a well thought out comment. What is the point of that?
I rather have 10 engaged watchers than a 100 that just fav and go.
Being an artist takes time and work. Anyone who thinks they can be successful within months of joining this site and posting mediocre crap is delusional.
I try hard. I get involved in the community, both on DA and FA. But you know why it's easier for me to interact and get my name out there on deviantart?
Furaffinity has no sense of "community". Sure, we have our watchers, but there's literally NO other way to discover new people, aside from going through other people's favourites, spotting them on the front page, or through ads. That's pretty much all we have here. The forums are used, alright, but they're just as difficult art and commission-wise as the main site.
On deviantART, I'm able to submit art to different communities, browse in different ways, talk to different people, because the community is as one. I submit to groups, get group notifications, and discover new artists. I network (which is important), get my name out there, etc. Yet I still have more watchers here in a year than I do on DA for six. Sure, sex sells. Raffles for free art are occasionally nice surprises. It's all about wanting someone to come back for more.
It's very true that people need to work hard to get where they are. That's how most popufurs are made, from working hard. Those who think it's going to come easy have another thing coming. But most of us are just working with what we've got, and it's not really working, when it comes to the site.
Sorry if this doesn't make any sense XD
Because, seriously, how many people will actually spread the word of someone who's trying to build up skills and doesn't currently have art good enough to warrant a feature? Raffles give smaller people a chance to ladder up,.
Do raffles bring you a bunch of people that are not actually interested in your art? Yes, and that's the reality of every form of advertising that exists. You show your work to 1000 people and hope 1 of them will get actual interest in your work. That's leagues better than posting your art in the vain hope that someone on the front page will look at it, or spending hours and hours posting your art on every online community in existence. And what's the harm on having a few extra watches that don't really do anything? If you make a raffle and get 10 watches more than a regular artwork would, you know you might get somewhere between 0-10 people interested on your work. Self-esteem MATTERS!
now everyone gets to play by the same rules
Say what? Is this a videogame now? And what rules? Everyone had the same right to make a raffle.
FA ads are unreliable, and expensive. Now many artists will suffer because of this, you're right. There is no decent way to advertise here.
So go advertise elsewhere.
Go start up a Tumblr and use the tagging system judiciously. Go start a Twitter account and use hashtags that will get you noticed amongst furries. Do something other than ask people to spam journal links all over FA, and maybe the results won’t turn out as bad as you might think.
As I said: nothing worth having ever comes easy.
So…artists should only create works with the intent of gaining as many watchers as possible, and then treat the number of watchers they have as the only metric of success?
If you measure success by how many people watch you on FA, you still have to do the fucking work to get them — and more importantly, keep them.
How people don't use a different site like Weasyl in addition to this one is beyond me.
They're not doing the journal thing because they can't get watchers otherwise, but because it's quicker, and the watches don't come instantly anyway, but only from people who like their art.
I couldn't agree more.
Not all people who advertise with journals are bad artists or just care about watchers. It's NORMAL for a good artist to need a good first bump to get out there. I've found many great artists I love looking at every day because of journals. Just because someone wants watchers doesn't mean thats all they want. I love art, it's my passion, but I'd love to be recognized more. Not so much here cause this is my porn account but on DA where all the rest of my art resides.
Good things don't come easy NORMALLY, but there's no reason to take away an easier way. There's no reason to make things harder for others.
Except to remind artists, popular or otherwise, that they deserve nothing just for coming here.
Oh hey, you signed up for FA and you have good art! Congratulations! Now you have to get off your ass (metaphorically or otherwise) and do the legwork to build up a fanbase. That means interacting with people in a kind and courteous manner (even when those people act like assholes), finding ways to get the word about your work (that don’t involve spamming, either directly or indirectly), and generally producing new art on a regular basis.
FA owes you nothing, you deserve nothing, and you better goddamn believe that you have to earn everything you get, both on this site/community and in this life. If you want a fanbase that will follow you to the ends of the earth and beyond, you have to do the fucking work.
I just happen to think that, hey, signing up for FA doesn’t entitle you to a fanbase, coming into existence doesn’t mean you deserve anything, and you have to do the fucking work to earn your worth in this world.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have some fucking work I need to do.
I myself have never used a raffle or shit, but as someone who's tried so many other things to get out there and has hardly succeeded, I see no problem with it. I'm not gonna pay 20$ for an ad on FA when so many people have adblock, and FA needs to cycle among so many ads anyway.
Personally, I just see no issue with it because I've managed perfectly fine to select and delete the raffle journals if I dont want to see them.
You can reply when you're done and aren't so hostile.
Also, props to you for keeping a level head despite the other person being overtly hostile and trying to underhandedly insult you and others. I am torn on the subject, personally. Unfortunately things like the 1111$ journal raffle are ruining it for all the people who got watchers that way. It wasn't annoying before, too much. There'd be a few every now and then, but this has been a disgusting flood. I've found many artists through such journals, ones I've ended up commissioning. Advertising off site like people are saying is a good idea, but cutting out a method of advertising like this can be problematic. And you're right, it's not to see your watchcount at the end of the day - it's to find potential customers easier.
Thank you though, and while I do agree the 1111 flood was annoying, I typically just selected the journals and deleted them. I myself have found some artists I love due to raffle journals too, so it's kind of a shame I wont be finding any more from them.
I got a fair portion of those watchers by commenting on other people’s images, being a bit of an attentionwhore, and running a quasi-popular/quasi-well-known furry-themed imageboard (TGFB). Look at how many images I’ve submitted (and the quality of work attributed to myself instead of others) since I popped onto FA over seven years ago. Do you really think I got over 1,400 watchers with my art alone? I rarely hit 100 views/double-digit favorites on the pixel art I submit these days, and even then, I probably hit that because I whore my submissions out via a Twitter/Tumblr combination (I post the work on Tumblr with links to FA, DA, etc., and then I link to that Tumblr post on Twitter when it goes live).
Please don’t tell me I have a ‘large fanbase’ when I don’t have one and haven’t done anything to deserve one.
And as for my so-called hostility: I used the word ‘fucking’ because it catches attention. If you want hostile…well, all you have to do is ask…
Okay fine, I guess it's not large to you or in comparison to the rest of this site, but personally I'd be pretty damn happy having 1400 watchers considering it'd be double what I have now on DA.
Then my mistake.
Could you phrase this a little better? I don’t understand this question at all. It just doesn’t parse.
I'd be pretty damn happy having 1400 watchers considering it'd be double what I have now on DA.
I’d be happy with half that amount, honestly. I don’t think of the number of people watching me as any metric of ‘success’; it just means people took a passing interest in what I said/did with my FA account at a specific point. Someone ‘watching’ you doesn’t mean that someone will support you in the future (financially or otherwise) or do anything more than give a passing look to whatever you submit.
I rarely submit art, I rarely participate in anything FA-related, and I don’t deserve the amount of watchers I have. I’d just as soon assume half of my watchers forgot they watched me in the first place. The number of watchers an artist has on an artdump site such as this or on social media (Twitter, Tumblr, etc.) should not become an artist’s only metric of success.
I don't see watchers as success, thats not why I want them, but chances are if I have more watchers Ill be getting more commissions and in turn, more money. Not only that but I love my watchers, I love communicating and befriending them. That's what I mean by wanting more watchers.
In a sense, yeah.
I've been here since 2006. I bet you half of them are no longer on this site. I bet another hundred or so are of the 'fav and go' variety, faved and watched me after posting something racy.
That watcher number means squat.
If you really want exposure, buy an ad space. Otherwise, just rely on others finding you in time. Post at regular intervals. Interact with people. I have found fantastic artists through other peoples favs and because I clicked on their name during conversations. I delete the majority of my journals right away, only replying/reading those that catch my attention (often personal type stuff).
Ofcourse, I am only one in many. So just my $0.02.
god why don't i have those hundreds of porn pics given to me just for being a furry!
Now you said at another comment that many users have adblock, and that's true, but there are many people (like me) that disable adblock for FA.
Also, I disabled the adblock for FA and I'm sure many others to as well. It's very good for publicity.
I ran one myself once, didn't do much for me. In the end, the art is what is supposed to attract people. Mine just didn't do the trick. C'est la vie.
I'm afraid some folks just have to realize they're simply not good enough or just do not draw what others want to see. It sucks, but that's art. Been there, done that. I have come to terms with the fact my stuff only appeals to a certain crowd. Giving it away for free with spammy journals is not going to change any of that.
Perhaps it didn't/wouldn't work for you and some, but it is certainly biased to claim that advertising isn't good here.
I like to give out free art at times. And I am not very popular myself. So when I hold a raffle it is important that people spread the word a bit.
I get maybe 20 people or so but if they dont like 5 or less.
It is very unfair to say all journal shares are spam just because someone has a massive one going on.
I also agree that Lesser known artists are getting the shit end of the stick on this one. (I pay for an ad so I am not just trying to be cheap and get free watchers.)
1. Try making friends and draw for them. It's much more rewarding to make a friend happy than some random art whore. Because most people who share those journals are the kind of people that try to collect as much art of themselves as possible, preferably as cheaply as possible.... Do you REALLY need watchers like that?
2. Draw things you love. Post it daily. Or atleast weekly.
3. Watchers mean NOTHING. Nothing at all. Talk to folks. Comment on art YOU admire. Popularity is not measured by watchers, no matter what you may believe.
I've been drawing since I was 6. I'm 31 now. I've been drawing furry art for 12 years. I still learn and improve every time I draw. When I started out, I draw every day. I drew for all my friends, for free. I got my name out because people would ask them who drew their picture. So eventually someone would come up to me and say 'Hey, I saw that pic you drew for X, I want one, how much do you charge?'
Coming to FA expecting to have tons of watchers within the first year... forget it. Not going to happen. Besides, one time watchers are pointless. It's not going to get you more visitors to your page. If your art isn't attractive enough to draw people in, a journal isn't going to fix it for you.
If you really want exposure, buy an ad. Be warned, those only work if your work is actually good enough. Guess what. It didn't work for me. My art style is not popular, it's outdated... And that's ok.
Draw, draw, draw. Draw things with background. Be bold. Try new things. Read tutorials, but don't copy certain styles. Yes, some folks get really popular with MLP style drawings, but if you truly want to be an artist, you need to find YOUR style. Learn anatomy. Draw everything you see around you. Draw furries in strange poses, nothing kills an artist like getting stuck in drawing the same pose over and over. Stay away from adoptables.
If you want big bucks, don't become an artist. If you love art, then you should have no issue with the work it takes.. because you're drawing daily anyway. Do your thing, eventually someone will notice.
If you need money... start buying and selling shit on Ebay. Or get a job at McD. At this point in the game those jobs will pay more than art will.
I don't do much commission work anymore, only if I need money I do it. And I never draw for myself anymore. I have killed my love for drawing.
Sorry to hear that you've lost your love of drawing though - that's one of the saddest outcomes I can imagine anyone suffering in this hobby. Worse than burnout even, because at least that's only temporary (we hope.) I do hope you find your inspiration again - I saw your stuff and its good, would be a shame to let it fade out.
This conversation has restored some of my faith in this fandom though. I have been feeling really down lately because it seems like the adult art is all anyone wants. But seeing the comments in this thread lets me know there are indeed those out there who will see art for more than just a way to get their jollies off.
Free art should be a gift though and not have just the purpose to lurch new people to your page...
But a lot of artists live on commissions, offering free art is an effective way of increasing their potential customer base at a small loss to them.
And far more affective than buying an ad that a lot of people ignore.
D'oh.
What about us artists that may or may not be able to afford ads on the site?
THIS.
At least someone understands.
Unlike the fellow below me.
Making your name in the art world, furry or contemporary or otherwise, is BLOODY DIFFICULT, and takes a tremendous amount of time, effort, skill and yes - money. An extremely tiny percent of very few people explode into any scene and become the next big thing in under a year.
I understand that it will take some grinding to get to a certain level of exposure. It's how life works.
However. This new "rule" isn't helping in the slightest, regardless of the raffle controversy or not.
I guess it's just annoying me because something like this seriously shouldn't be hyped so much.
It wasn't worth the 2000+ comments that are obviously not going to be addressed by the admins. They don't give a fuck.
At least, that's how I see it.
But, I digress.
Nice art, yo.
And thanks!
I kinda hate that the term "popufur" seems to denote someone who doesn't deserve the fanbase they have. If you've been around long enough and worked your tail off to get that fanbase, you deserve to be well known. In my experience, the ones who hate on the popular artists are usually the ones who come here expecting to have that same popularity fall into their lap, and when it doesn't, they get pissy.
The reason 'popufurs' are popular is because they have a product people want. They had to work to get to a point that they had their own consistent style and technique. All the people whining couldn't deliver that product. Work on your art, don't worry so much about the folks watching. They'll come in time, when you can deliver the product desired.
No spammy journal is going to cut out the hard work required. It will get you a one time watcher, nothing more.
Make some friends, they mean a hell of a lot more than watchers. Draw stuff for them, make them happy. Their friends will notice their cool new art, come by and check your page out and it'll all snowball from there. It will enhance your experience on FA, I promise.
I stopped caring how many watchers and pageviews I had a long time ago, because it really is no measure of how "good" you are, just how much you can cater to the general population of FA (ei: draw a lot of porn). As long as I'm getting the feedback and commissions keep coming, I'm satisfied.
I'll throw out there that you can also garner more attention by being present. Meaning, post a LOT of art - no matter what the subject matter is. I think that has helped me as much as my skill level, if not more so. I make a ton of art in a short amount of time so I"m always posting new stuff. :)
I've been here since 2006. Most my watchers are inactive. It's a silly number and does you no good. I've got about 20 pretty active commenters that have been with me for years. I love them dearly for their support.
The quantity thing matters, but to a degree. I don't care HOW many adoptables, recolors, sonic art etc. etc. you upload, it's not going to make you 'popular' (I so hate that word). Upload -quality- art frequently. If you work in batches, try to post one a day... it will spread out your exposure. Be active in the community.
For example, I checked your page because you commented. I enjoyed your work, it's unique (VERY important, so many folks want to look just like another artist.... but why?). I have watched you and I have faved some pieces. Now, the people that check my page out will see the pieces I considered to the best of your gallery. That is how an art community SHOULD function. Not by conning people with 'free' art.
My pageviews and watchers have climbed considerably in the past couple years, but I've been here since 2008 (actively since 2009), and it took a while for people to really start noticing. But I am proud to be able to say I got here through the work I did, not because of pandering with porn or freebies or spamming journals etc. I like to think they watch me because they enjoy the stuff I draw, which happens to actually be what I enjoy drawing, so thats a plus. :)
It's true. I've rode the waves of the Goldrush. It slowed down around 2009-2010.. The stakes have been claimed. You can still make it, but it will take work and dedication.... No shortcuts.
now there are some popular artists here that have a really great art style while a few others do not. but that's purely opinion based there.
as you said most have the skills to be popular but it doesn't change the fact that many of the artists in the furry community are popular for the wrong reasons. it's more about what kind of art you do rather than how amazing your art is
As for people that have the money to commission art with their characters, well, it's their money and they can do whatever they want with it. If someone watches them because they like the character, were is the problem with that? Personally I always watch the artist that did the original artwork and not the person that the character belongs to.
i guess there can be a list for those being popular because they draw porn on a porn site as i never really viewed it like that since at its core FA isn't ment to be a porn site (says the admins) but it is for quite a lot of people.
also just leaving this here for the giggles http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums.....pse5bb61f7.jpg
Because it doesn't seem like your answer relates to my question.
I've seen many amazing artists get unnoticed, so your near troll like response is unwarranted. Not disagreeing with this journal, just your comment.
Very much agreed. Particularly the first part if you can't do both.
Because it shouldn’t matter if the artist has only a handful of followers or two-thirds of FA following them: spam is still spam.
Artists can get the word out about their works in other ways.
What about people optionally deciding to make a journal linking to something? Is that allowed?
I would imagine so, since that typically happens spontaneously and without artist prompting.
And again, why offer free art at all now? The only reason to do so is try to gain some exposure and hopefully make money off new customers.
I know I've found a lot of artists through raffles, now what?
They buy an ad? And how many people really surf FA without Adblock these days?
It's punishing artists for wanting to create art when the problem is attention whores.
Or, y’know, because you actually like to create and share art for its own sake. You don’t have to think about monetizing your skill every minute of every day, y’know.
I know I've found a lot of artists through raffles, now what?
Now you (and they) have to work a little harder to build up a fanbase — but surely you have nothing to fear from a little hard work, right?
It's punishing artists for wanting to create art when the problem is attention whores.
That’s a load of horseshit. When I want to create art, I don’t stop to think about how I can leverage that art into a bigger fanbase or a chance for monetization until after I’ve ‘finished’ creating. FA’s decisions don’t punish me or any other artist in any way. If you can’t handle doing some extra work to get an actual fanbase built around your art, maybe you need to rethink your priorities.
Yeah, well…tough shit. You made the choice to use FA, and by extension, you made the choice to live by FA management’s rules. If you don’t like the rules, do something about it other than complain — like, say, go use one of FA’s competitors. (Weasyl has a better feature set and far better design than FA.)
If anything, everyone receives the same punishment — one bad apple spoils the bunch, as the axiom goes — so don’t think FA’s doing this just to spite artists.
Most of my commissioners were people who entered raffles.
It can and does happen.
People will only pay for 1 dollar shit and will only watch you for the chance that they're getting free art.
Anything more than 5 bucks is too much for people apparently, even if it means we already don't get paid minimum wage so maybe you ought to create some unique ads instead of reposting the same bland stuff over and over again?
And for some reason I am unable to respond to the original OP. Bleh.
so in my opinion this is an entirely ridiculous notion.
That's like saying if your friend tells you about McDonald's and you will make it your choice to go into McDonald's that now you are forced to purchase a cheeseburger from them and support them.
And it has absolutely nothing about do with the fact that you might like their product or not
-I- got my start by doing raffles. and reposts. and getting journal pimps.
I have a few myself.
They found me from a friend because I was holding a small free art raffle and ended up getting a bunch of art from me at a later date.
I also find that it is a nice almost.. thank you once I reach set goals. Just to say hey thanks for watching me guys have a chance at free artsu.
Just because there is a massive raffle right now does not mean they have to take the easy way out and do this though. It will pass soon and it will be back to normal. I mean most people who do share to enter raffles are smaller anyhow right?
Did I even make any sense? @.@ Sorry tired from work and this killed my night since I have 2 YCH ending tonight. and I need to change the rules in my holiday raffle now lol.
Only asking because I do have to survive off my art and I never spam.
You can become a great artist without advertising, but you’ll never become a great businessperson without it.
All this to say I didn't notice the spam myself.
But if it's a community issue.... spam is spam. I'll trust that it was offputting to enough people to warrant it.
As much as I love YCHs, incidentally, I'm quite pleased about this rule myself. People reposting the same image every day to advertise... now that spam I definitely noticed.
The community issue I'm less sure about because I do see the annoyance of a lot of other people, but... were the people participating enjoying it?
The YCH thing I agree with; I wouldn't mind one or two if it's a long running auction or whatever, like over the course of a week, but people have just exercised incredibly bad judgement on that front.
Said person will gladly spread good words about you because you went out of your way to do something cool, and you've done something very memorable. THAT'S a great way to spread the word about your talents.
My statement still stands.
Who the hell was getting bothered with art raffles anyway? I certainly wasn't. Journals don't have a global hub to be flooded with it. Seems to me this is only a problem because of how terribly coded FA is. I don't think this would be a problem if we could browse journals past the last 50.
I sort of felt like those messages were there for those who wished to participate, but if you didn't, delete them and go about your day. I guess if it's a strain on the servers, okay, but feel like with raffles, as well as YCH and stuff, people have been kind of whiny/entitled about dictating what other people chose to post.
OH WELL, for better or worse, here we are.
And I suspect that people holding current requirement raffles have to amend their rules.
I was so sick of those journals!
Given the new rules, does it mean that reposting like your befriended artists' "Commissions Open"-journals, "Sign petition against SOPA/TPP/ any other anti-internet treaty/law"-journals or "Commissions Open! All the money will be donated to Philippine typhoon victims"-journals is not allowed as well?
I figured that out as well, after Fender edited the journal and answered similar questions |=(X3
I wonder about the same |=(:3
I ws sick tired of it -.-'
But tbh i even watched that dude of the 1111$ thingie for support...
(I even said so in a shout... Never really got into that huge raffle cause --> LOLZNON-SENCEWTF.. <--)
So yeah...
I guess actually he didn't need much of support...
He caught attention of people just by talking about --> Money.. <--
:|
Money talks, but doesnt have meaning to it when it comes to love and support, Its the type of thing that has to be earned rather than gained by offering up some money for it.
But either ways... That's how people are really... It's money...
Everyone needs it... But i thought people would THINK like... ''Ok there are TOO MANY ENTRIES ON THIS... NO chance i will win it anyway... Whats the point? Lol...''
AND STILL...
People fucking entered.. º__º
Ah well... Money seems to have power over people...
And maybe they don't even realise about it at some time... They just do becaue ''OH WOW!'' :c
(I'm not blaming anyone... I'm just saying what i think about this situation really... .__.)
We hope you enjoy/detest your stay.
Friend, whoa.
Whoa, friend, whoa.
Take a chill pill. It was sarcasm.
(But seriously, thank you for getting rid of the YCH spammers )
"Streaming Notifications - To avoid flooding, members are permitted to upload one streaming notification per 12 hours."
Despite the obvious complaints about the subject matter on that site, FA needs to take into consideration that they have competition that offers vastly better user interfaces and features instead of taking forever to do anything just because the legacy code is so awful.
when i enter raffles i only partake if i can apply by adding their link to my pre-existing front page journal. spamming people is no good.
I can't thank you enough
I understand where this rule comes from, but I'd like to voice a couple concerns:
Journals aren't as helpful for advertising as a visual submission is. While I definitely don't like seeing the same YCH reminders many times in a week, I don't think journals have the same reach. I attribute this to the fact that FA still doesn't allow you to choose what parts of a user you'd like to watch, so journals completely flood most inboxes. A YCH reminder is very easily lost in the clutter. :/ Limiting the reminders and requiring them to be removed after the auction is over seems like it might be a better route, at least until FA utilizes a way to select the journals you watch.
Just my input. :)
I'm a member of a several-thousand large community of people who buy and sell things, and the rule there is ONE reminder post per auction, which I find to be rather agreeable terms. And I always have a new influx of bidders after posting my one reminder when there's a day left in the auction. I'd like to see some kind of middle ground with that here.
I survive on my commission income, and from time to time I do auctions. Not that often, just here and there! I usually post a "reminder" on the final day (just one reminder, btw!) to alert folks to the fact that the auction is ending soon. I usually get a bigger influx of bids for that reminder because people see that it's their last chance to get in on it or maybe they decide to wait it out and forget then end up missing out completely. I've actually had folks who didn't watch me bid on an auction because they saw it on the front page in reminder form. After the auction is over, I always delete the reminder submission to avoid cluttering my gallery and people's inboxes because there's no point in them having to see the submission after it's too late! I never really considered it spam, to be honest because when I see reminders in my inbox, it makes me take a second look at something and I've actually bid on things that way myself!
Journals are an okay method of getting a message across, but in all honesty, journals are kind of space fillers in your inbox. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't glaze over journals and just hit "nuke" all the time. I've actually missed on on some of my favorite artists opening for commission slots that way but I don't really have the time to invest in going through every single journal! I've also noticed that when I do livestreams, I almost always post a journal because I don't feel like making a new submission everyday (I stream near daily and I know the rule about using the same "streaming" image all the time is in effect), but on the few occasions I DO post a "Streaming!" submission, I get nearly double the amount of people watching!
I think a good middle ground would be nice! Maybe like what Lobita is saying here, like a "one reminder per auction" rule! I understand the need to minimize spam on the site but I don't it needs an all or nothing option to help fix it!
:D
And being on here for as long as I have, and many others, it's safe to say what a debacle that is in of itself. Never mind scrounging up the necessary talent to implement something like this into the site's aging, flimsy code.
Still though I agree with this idea. To stamp out all forms of advertisement is kind of shooting everybody in the head instead of the criminals. It really does screw a lot more people over than satisfy a niche percentage.
Isn't that the FA way? ;b
While this solves a rather burgeoning issue throughough FA, all it does is generate twice the problems for the artists out there trying to actually earn money at a pace they can keep up with. Nono, the garbage opinion (and this seems to be an oddly popular one) is to screw the little guy, they should have the TIME to post new work constantly. It's THEIR fault for not working hard enough.
:|
Are you fucking kidding? People have lives and jobs outside of FA and drawing constantly. Hell, even jobs that don't pay enough. Or in people like my case, can't work at all and earn next to nothing due to increasing cutbacks on welfare that covers for disabled peoples like myself, that need to earn money more, but don't have the physical or psychological capacity to churn out a 40 dollar masterpiece every 8 to 10 hours just so you can get enough fame to have a reliable customer base to survive on.
So many people look at it as about trying to get fame, when no, what we're trying to yield OUT of that fame is quid pro quo. A means to make money where conventional methods are failing us miserably.
Well, technically stick figures holding signs would count as separate and new images.... just sayin...
Day 1: RedFox posts YCH original
Day 2: RedFox posts YCH reminder
Day 3: RedFox removes reminder from day 2, posts YCH reminder
Day 4: See day 3
etc etc etc
Since admins are unlikely to ever see two reminders in their gallery, or happen across the same reminder twice while noticing posting time, these people are likely to get away with spamming. If the reminders aren't allowed at all, we can just tell RedFox firmly but nicely on Day 2 that this is not allowed and please don't do it.
I don't mean to take my frustrations out on you specifically, I know it isn't your fault.
and now, we want folders.
And would be handy to organize better our stuff! x3
Folders will decrease the alternative accounts for stuff.
Folders is a pipe dream on FA.
the ability to turn submission comments completely off
opting-out of journals DA-style
but I am patient.
Oh, well XD
Both is information and watchers will see both (since you cannot watch only arts).
Now here's a crazy idea that actually solves the problem instead of brushing it under the rug:
Implement an option where artists can feature their (OLD) work on the front page for a short time in exchange for a nominal fee. FA gains a new revenue stream and people who want more visibility are happy to throw in a couple bucks to be featured.
Too good to be true? Sounds like it.
These are not very useful for increasing revenue for the main type of artist that does raffles/YCH. Those artists most likely can't afford to see raffles, and also a good portion of FA users have the AdBlock system in their browser so they don't even see the banners.
What I described was an actual site feature, having images already posted on the site be re-featured on the front page in an embedded fashion. Nothing off-site, no external elements. This would work better than banner ads because essentially it's exactly the same thing that already is on the front page, just with a premium set of images.
The reason we will never see this, however, is that it's so much easier to just be lazy and brush the problem aside with new and seemingly effective rules, that will get amended as people come up with new and creative ways to get more visibility using the options the site offers. Instead of providing people, the actual users with a legitimate way to increase exposure to the masses, they are forced to test the waters and skip around the rules with makeshift solutions.
The site already caters quite well to people who just want to get their fix of animals romping, but the features it offers to artists who keep producing this content are appallingly useless.
Something like this could work... for artists who can afford to buy premium space. What about the artists that are new to the site that are trying to improve their art skill and can't afford buying adspace?
The reason we will never see this, however, is that it's so much easier to just be lazy and brush the problem aside with new and seemingly effective rules, that will get amended as people come up with new and creative ways to get more visibility using the options the site offers. Instead of providing people, the actual users with a legitimate way to increase exposure to the masses, they are forced to test the waters and skip around the rules with makeshift solutions.
The site already caters quite well to people who just want to get their fix of animals romping, but the features it offers to artists who keep producing this content are appallingly useless.
So true.
That would just be a matter of hammering out the specific details of the system. This is why I emphasized nominal price originally. Considering how quickly the front page moves during peak hours, the feature time wouldn't have to be long, an hour or two max. With a short enough time and some other restrictions the price of featuring one image could be low enough, probably way under $5. The price is just there to act as an entry threshold.
The restrictions I mention would be built in safeguards to promote artist diversity, i.e. to keep one person from flooding the rotation with their own work. Essentially you'd be limited to something like one or two images per day or arbitrary amount of time. It could be a cheaper option to actually buying potentially ineffective ad space. Obviously no amount of exposure will be a magic bullet if the artistic skill just isn't there yet, but at least it's an option.
These are all just details that could be changed as much as needed, it's the idea that is the important part here. The idea of offering people an actual legitimate way to bump submissions instead of just banning it.
feel free to check it out if you so wish, http://www.furiffic.com
So in order to post a "reminder" for an auction, you have to either link it on a submission you're already posting that has nothing to do with the original or in a journal. Whiiiich means that 95% of users won't ever see it.
:( But submissions at least have NSFW filter while journals DON'T have any(yet?) I don't want to know about any YCHs of +18 nature, and if I'll see sth with a title which says me more that I want to know, I'm afraid I'll make an instant unwatch -_- And now the number of such journals will increase dramatically Please, introduce a NSFW filter for journals now since you made them the only way to remind of YCHs(which are actually like in 90%+ adult rated-_-)...
There has been a lot of cases where the 'Journal-to-win' thing has notified me of an auction/raffle being held by a person that I am not watching. Not to mention the likelihood that I could potentially see more great art from these people if I decide to watch them...
What happens then?.. I wonder if a dedicated message section could be implemented, specifically for those sorts of things?
... never mind the fact that it would probably prevent most future slowdowns and site outages as a result. Much like big corporations, certain popufurs have trouble looking at longterm benefits, just short term profits.
Thank you so much in advanced for answering my question. And thank you so much about putting an end to the raffle spam. I will admit that I partook in a few myself, but I'm glad to see them go. Thank you for continuing to make this site my favorite n.n
Now, if you want to post a NEW submission and in write a reminder in that new submission's description? Go for it!
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12019385/
And if I haven't filled up, I might repost it during a different part of the day to reach a different crowd.
First of all, not everyone reads journals. I'd bet that less than half the userbase does.
Second, new users who may have been interested in my auction, but did not see it the first time around, and who are not watching me are not going to see the journal I post to remind people of the auction- because they are not watching me. I have seen success from posting reminders on auctions, far more than when I have not.
There was previously a rule requiring the following: Reminders may be posted only once a day, and must be deleted before a new one is posted: i.e. If I post a submission labelled [AUCTION], I can then post a [REMINDER] submission the next day. The day after that, once I delete the second submission, I can re-post it for exposure. That was a GREAT rule, it worked out- people didn't get to spam hourly, but artists still got to post up their reminders.
Basically, this is harmful to artists who use this site as a place to conduct business- not the raffle part, simply the auction part. The other option would be to buy an ad, but speaking as a user who has purchased ads several times on the site, a) the customer support on them is really bad. There seems to be only one person handling the entire process, and every time I purchased an ad I had to send several emails and create forum posts in order to get a response, and b) for the benefit I got out of it the price was too much. Far too many users are using adblock, so it's not worth it to me to pay to have an ad posted. Hell, I've probably already reached all the users who have it disabled on the site (on my main account, that is). I currently use twitter and tumblr, and am working on reaching out to my fanbase there, but the only way I have ever made money on this site has been through submitted announcements of commission availability and auctions/reminders.
You need to find a happy medium that's going to be easy on artists and on watchers, as well as your server space. Perhaps it would be best to add a feature where users can upload auction notifications, that can be filtered by those who are uninterested, or will simply show in a space on all pages, like ad space, but user-created.
Or just ban auctions entirely, because it's almost useless to post them now.
As a side note, as someone who does have open trouble tickets and actually had to contact an administrator to get it handled, despite being an urgent ticket (something you have no way of notifying the administration OF...), I'm not pleased to see how many more rules are being added that will end up with an even LARGER backlog of trouble tickets. :/
So tired of seeing spam in my journals.
For the record, I agree with the first point of this announcement but not the second one.
If you're losing faith, I would recommend a priest.
Contrary to your belief, "losing faith" doesn't really elaborate on which of these changes is causing said degradation of faith nor does it propose any explanations or solutions. It's akin to calling tech support and just saying "the computer doesn't work why don't you guys do your job".
Among the people I actually know, most of them are upset with the fact that they're adding restrictions rather than features.
For the record, I support the first point of this announcement, not so much the second one. Besides, if it's the vast majority of people disliking it, then why did the $1,111 raffle attract over three thousand people? Obviously they saw the journals and responded in kind.
Just stating facts, it's not "my belief" that the original commenter down there was fairly clear in what they felt was a lack of faith for FurAffinity. As I said before, any of the things he said doesn't merit Fender's response. What happened to the furry fandom being about kindness and community?
3,000 is... not a whole lot.
Posting reminders for auctions etc is fine by me if you post em to your scraps. Having them fill the front page, and having my journals' inbox flooded with raffle spam is obnoxious, and for a while, made me not really come on FA much. I've barely been on for a week cause of that $1000 raffle.
Thats one 1111 raffle i only got a few journals ( When it first started but after that i never really paid attention to the title "1111" in them) on that so i really haven't gotten any of that spam-a-lam~
Sorta weird to avoid a site just because of a few hundred journals posted as the same thing. I mean there is a nuke button. (Not here to start a fight or anything so please dont get upset at me.)
Maybe it doesn't bug me that bad because i use the nuke/Delete after opening tabs of journals i would want to read/look at.
Happy that that is alittle cleared up though.
Doing these would allow people who want to see the journals to be able to see them, and people who don't want it don't get bothered by it.
Show me a person who actually reads all of those "hey I just entered a raffle look at me wheeee" journals.
I do not like seeing dozens upon dozens of "So-n-so's having an awesome raffle!" journals.
9/10 the 'must post a journal' requirements are to get additional watchers (many of whom unwatch as soon as they don't win the raffle).
Want more watchers (thereby getting more people to see your raffle)? Post more quality artwork, spend the paltry $25 to run an ad on FA, or simply ask your friends to use word of mouth and give you a promo.
And then how many ads do you think will get clicked by the furs that don't use it, huh?
Which is not a valid excuse. That was posted as a reminder more than anything.
"5S, 10J" *click* 5 submissions promoting "I'm streaming!!1!"/YCH auction reminders, 10 journals promoting the same fucking raffle/"I'm streaming!!1!"
I'm sure people are going to try to find a way around it, but thank you for making this change!
I've seen artists post YCH/Auction reminders every half hour, every 10 minutes as it closes in on the end.
And raffles end up with dozens, sometimes hundreds of journals spammed into people's inboxes (like this particular last one with the 1 grand giveaway). There is a difference.
There should be a limit, like once every 24 hours or 48 or something for YCH reminders. That way it takes care of a million things, but are still helping the artist get publicity for their work.
I agree the limitt of one reminder per day is fair for both watcher and artist ...
100% support
I'll guess that the data flood from these reposts is at least partly responsible for the white-screening issues.
Also, stream submissions and journals usually are deleted after the stream ends.
An idea that could work is to offer an option to mark the submission as "Stream post", and then to have a new section in the inbox of everybody saying
Active streams:
<user>
<user>
<user>
If instead of listing the usernames we could include their submissions inviting you to visit their streams, in their own separate section of your xxxC xxxJ xxxF xxxW, then even better.
I dunno, is just an idea I have.
I'm not saying anything about the streams themselves, because, like I said, I stream. I just don't see why the stream submission spam should be allowed when the YCH spam isn't. It's the same thing, so why ban one and not the other?
Also, good luck getting that worked into the message centre. I mentioned that a year ago and they said that they were working on it, but, we've seen how long it takes for things to be added to the site that people actually want, like the search function, or the commission info tab.
And about the user requested feature, don't worry, I'm aware. I am still waiting for this that was announced in 2009. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u...../739128467.png xD But I'm patient. Also, considering I am not paying a dime for being here and having this place as my workplace, I don't have any actual reason to complain. Quite the contrary.
That'd be like having a list of artists that are taking commissions. Too dramatic of a change for it to actually be coded.
BUT thanks, WAS REALLY RAGING WITH ALL THIS SPAM.
sometimes people need to promote
Other than users with Adblock how could they not be reliable?
I know I've clicked one or two. Mind you, that's one or two in like 7 years XD
I find the ads great to use. I've gotten around 500+ new watchers each time.
I have not had such luck.
Obviously ads are run by admins and not a program or machine so you have to cut them some slack. They never short you.
Also, each time I've put an ad up I get around 500+ new watchers, so it IS great to use!
DAMNIT, LOL.
This ruins it for people like me who delete the reminder after a day or so.
But I guess-- Needs of the many outdo the needs of the few.
XD
Excellent maneuver. The last saturday literally every single journal I got was about that raffle we all know about, and good journals were actually pushed back. It became worse when some of the people making the journals not even labeled them being about that raffle, but instead used an obtuse and dark title destined to lure you to read it.
"omg look what I found" by example.
Anyways
Thank you 'neer. I was awaiting for something like this.
Though think those spammers randomly noting people weird links were more of a problem then 'watch / report to win'. I see more of a concern when someone is contacting you directly rather then a journal.
I don't know. Giving my thoughts.
If we users can take it upon ourselves to clean up our own material to make FA sleeker and a bit more speedy, that would be fantaaaaaaaastic.
Although thanks to this, the ones with less watches cant promote their stuff, thaats ganna hurt em
And well, theres one little catch, i dunno how many but i dont think all 100% of FA here touches the forums o.o¡ at least i dont really do so lol, only did it ages ago before i got into the actual art page here xD
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:37197608
i mean, i understand what theyre trying to do, some people really need to calm down with their reminder submissions but i dont really have a problem with it idk
idk i just hate that because some people abuse it and post constant reminders, everyone has to be punished
Post a submission linking to the journal. Whe you want to remind, delete the submission and submit again. Now you only ever have one copy of the image. No need to even call it a reminder.
Hope this will lessen any site slow downs too :D
But seriously THANK HEAVENS!!
Those repost journals are obnoxious. I get that they're trying to advertise but its sooooo damn annoying to see a million reposts in your inbox.
But at the same time now we don't have to.
People make journals where they feature other artists too.
There are many other ways to find new artists that are not spam-tacular.
The upside about going from journals is that you're getting recommendations from people you like with tastes similar to your own.
So rather than have a convenient way to find artists that I will enjoy, I have to pour through 30+ pages of terrible fetishes and distasteful portrayals of women in the browse just so you don't have to see the promo journals in your journal feed that you're just gonna nuke anyway. :\
Not having 20+ 'YO THIS PERSON HAVIN RAFFLE' journals to go through will be a nice change.
You can always go through the favorites of people you watch instead.
Thats actually likely to get you a much wider variety of artists than the journals.
Or maybe even go through someone's watch list.
Again, there are many other ways to find new artists that are not spam-tacular.
*shrugs*
i feel like this rule is a rash decision to something that's less of a problem as people are making it out to be due to the most recent raffles that have been happening. yeah i could go through their favorites, and I do, but I've found some absolute gems through raffle promotions.
And that's not even starting on how this will affect someone with no fanbase. I started out that way, and I wouldn't have near the pageviews/watchers that I have if it weren't for them. If FA is gonna promote themselves as an avenue for new artists, they should give them a way to promote themselves. Not everyone can start off an artistic genius that gets 1000 pageviews for each picture they post.
Dang guess that's what I've been doing wrong.
You've been on this site shorter than I and have a vast larger amount of page views than myself.
I guess we all can't be great at getting our names out there. Sometimes people work them selves up from the bottom and base things just on their art and not flooding people and forcing them to look at you.
At the core shouldn't art be about creating something for yourself? Doing what makes you happy. Through that maybe others will enjoy what you're doing and, eventually, maybe you'll get recognition for it. If you expect to start a new and instantly get attention, you're going to be sorely let down.
If a journal is about a raffle then the person is not exactly making money off of it. Its purely for the purpose of getting themselves attention. Which I'm not exactly saying is a bad thing either, just that there should be other ways of going about it.
It does seem a little forced when you're seeing it multiple times. Kind of a 'Why are you ignoring me? Click me! Click me!' type of thing.
Its not so much that its to hard or people are to lazy, though this may be true for some.
Its likely that its just getting out of hand.
By the way I do enjoy our back and forth we are having.
Its always interesting to see other view points and I really do like hearing other's opinions.
Which would appear on either, their profile page, or the schedulers profile page.
By what i mean by people, is:
- Visual Artists
- Litterateurs
- Musicians/DJ's.
Believe me, even though it takes me a short second to load a page, it still takes me around a minute to 3 uploading a submission.
Not because of anything too major, mind you.
Caching the image and storing it on a hard drive.
i sort of know the basics on how a database works too.
Clearly the admins/mods of FA clearly work hard to try slam down every loophole, that is causing site performance to decrease.
they have to keep updating it every so often, sometimes the servers cannot keep up.
I'm sick to death of people spamming up my inbox with 9,999 messages trying to win some stupid contest.
This is solely putting an end to raffles which require spamming as a method of entry.
The exact words I used were: "Signal boosting the raffle would be nice, but it is not a requirement!"
However a lot of artists use what has just been made against the rules so Im skeptical to see this play out well
I mean before we were allowed to repost 1 copy of the original or whatever.
[which I dont do]
the way I go about it is by posting a general step by step image of how the finished auction will look [using a previous one as example] and i tend to repost that once a day? but it isnt uhh like a direct repost of the auction picture.
wow, everything is so confusing.
1.) Initial submission -> Advertisement for the YCH auction with the sketch to be completed.
2.) All subsequent submissions -> Cannot be any variation of the YCH advertisement, but rather completely new artwork altogether with a 'Just a reminder: I still have a YCH auction running (link here)' in the description.
It allows you to post reminders for YCH auctions in journals all you'd like, but limits further ads for a particular auction in new submissions to the description of new images.
hence my mentioning it.
Reminders in journals? A-okay. Plugging an auction in the description of a new submission? Good to go. Uploading art just to remind folks that you have an auction going on? Prohibited.
If that is the case, the wording should be tinkered with a bit.
Good job.
Now where's my beer?
2.)The journals ill admit get a little out of hand but its more of a person who is willing to give there time to do something when everyone who enters has a chance to win SOMETHING. I almost bet its over this 1100 Raffle,
3.)but in any case i believe a person should keep a journal that just has all of the current raffles in it instead of making a bunch of new journals
4.)And i agree with
As for the spamming, I literally don't watch enough people to be bothered by it, but I do know the exact "repost this journal" this is probably about, but thanks for the no spamming thing.
Unfortuantly, That means no more raffles. That sucks. Alot. I liked participating and/or holding raffles. It was really fun while it lasted. You can't really hold a raffle if nobody journals it, because nobody will find out about it.
Oh well. I wish you all luck.
Does this mean that contest host may ask you to spread the word as long as its not a requirement for entry?
"Q: May I create a journal to "signal boost" the journal, account, or submission of a friend or artist I like?
A: Yes, UNLESS the aforementioned user's journal __encourages__ or requires you to do so in any way."
Doesn't sound like it bud. I would not suggest suggesting spreading the good word. Just do it of your own volition and don't suggest others follow you. Let them do it of their own volition too ;)
Really....
The Biggest Spam Wars where caused by Rafflestuff who got held by already Well known People.
And who looses
Right those who dont even want to cause such Spammingshitstorms FFFFFFFFFFFFFF
I agree with the Admin toughts and New rules but its a 50/50 thing :/
1. Uploading frequency. Keep it steady.
2. Upload in batches. Small batches catch more attention than singular images.
3. Pick peak days and times to upload.
4. Invest in ads. Sorry guys, but if you want your business to grow you're going to have to invest in it. $20 is not that hard to scrape up, especially if you want to make this a steady source of income.
5. Sometimes you'll have to do art that will garner the best attention, or that you thoroughly enjoy that doesn't have a large amount of artists doing it. (I personally am okay with gore, which not a lot of folks are.)
If I may add, being active in the community and networking at cons as
I've gotten my followers here and elsewhere without 'spamming'. (In fact, I fear annoying and losing watchers by reposting things, so I try to avoid that.) As far as I've learned, it's a matter of marketing smartly. Put up blogs, submit to different sites, make friends, and socialize. The most successful freelancers that I know don't limit themselves to one medium.
That being said, my main source of income isn't made on FA, so I really can't speak much for artists who do make the majority of their money that way.
I hope I didn't offend! Just offering an alternate viewpoint here.
Do the journals about pimping an artist count on lets say an artists offers free art, etc, I am kinda confused.
but you can pimp them out for yourself so long as they aren't asking for it.
Say you make a free art journal and tell people they only need to comment to enter and you would like them to spread the word, this is not spam because there's no requirement to spread the word, it's simply a bonus suggestion.
Asking to repost but not requiring it is still encouraging it.
The raffle would have to say absolutely nothing about reposting. Then if someone happens to repost, that's okay.
So I think this rules out hint-dropping too, lol.
You know what would fix this issue? That mandatory tagging I hear was being worked on at the town hall meeting like a dang year ago! Seriously what happened to that? It was a great idea if you had to tag a raffle journal people could just block em out and it wouldn't be an eye sore unless you wanted it. Just sayin.
It's a Christmas Miracle!
Something like:
Notice: Its now not allowed to post Journals and submissions which encourage users to repost and/or link to the source as a method of entry.
Glad I wasn't the only one that thought it was weird
Suggest you generalize this to just say
'Posting a reminder for any time based promotion, using the first image used, or a variant of it, is NOT ALLOWED.'
Reposting by definition limits a thing to one copy, so it's redundant, and the limitation is too specific.
You need to maybe sticky this or mention it on the submission upload page / create new journal page itself so it is obvious. Very easy to ignore site news :P
There are a lot of good artists out there, who don't have a lot of watchers as they are still up and coming, that don't get a lot of attention without the odd reminder or having people repost their journal for a raffle!
Can a person who enters a raffle post a journal willingly (not as part of the raffle rules) tell their own watchers about a raffle?
If not this might screw with quite a few artists.. myself included, as I'm only just nearing 100 watchers.
But I guess that's only fitting as the commission system is already messed up as well..
How hard is it to just select all, and uncheck the journals you find interesting?
I mean, I watch not an awful lot of people and check FA daily so it is very very manageable for me.
As for the YCH thing, the odd reminder is nice for us who don't have thousands of watchers willing to throw money at you. As I said, the commission system is screwed, so those who are good but don't have much of a following just get lost within the crowd underneath the super popular artists on here.
As for the reminder thing, yes, I find that it is ok so long as they don't go and overdo it by posting a reminder each day like a person or two does on my watch list whenever they have one up. The odd one every now and then I would think should be fine! I mean, what if the artist needs some help with paying said bills, and posted the YCH to try and get some money for it, but there ends up being no bidders, despite it being a nice one? They should be allowed to post the odd reminder or two.. not everybody is living the good life as an artist.
DarkOverord We stated only where it's required to enter. You can still promote your friends.
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/statu.....75062080794624
Basically just don't require people to actually post a journal :P
Missed that within the bunches of text and comments, so thank you for showing me
And how shall small artists get their word spread now? XD nice one.
DarkOverord We stated only where it's required to enter. You can still promote your friends.
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/statu.....75062080794624
Except not really?
Seriously, though, thank you. I was really getting tired of all that crap. Now if we could just do something about people posting the reminders as JOURNALS every day/few hours...
Going by this wording, that seems to mean stuff like this & this¹ (nsfw) is no longer allowed either. Is that intentional?
¹Not picking on vallhund, of course, just the first example I could find.
Would I only be allowed to submit one of them?
I'm going to assume this doesn't apply to clean/naughty images, but YCH and raffle images only.
With the new policy theres even LESS chances of the new artists getting known as the main page is practically shit xD (sorry but speaking the truth, it doesnt show that many subs and since people update the 24/7, you could easily miss new arts and be spammed by the already too-known ones (no offenses for the popufurs, but let new guys take the spotlight too).
Besides theres some other bigger spams around too aside of journals xD, but ill leave it there ~
Might as well just completely remove the Artist advertisements from the top and bottom of the page for FA since those are wonderful amounts of spam. That won't happen, though... Because it is income for the site.
Before you jump on the flame wagon against my post, I'm not a YCH or Auction maker, so this doesn't make any difference to me, just an observation as to the operating standards that might choke this site.
Q: Would it be fine if you where to release one YCH image and then have it linked to a journal for the bidding. And when there's alittle time left ( Maybe like an hour or two) delete the older image and repost it.
Or would that just be considered spam?
Q: If the YCH/auction is over and say the artist would take and move the image to scrapes and then soon post another YCH that is different.
Is that also considered spam?
Same goes for reminders. I highly doubt that anyone here clicks on each entry individually and deletes them. If so, they're an idiot. Not everyone can be a popufur fursuiter/artist. Some people need the extra exposure. I know I've stumbled upon some really fantastic artists with all of 100 pageviews through raffle promotions. I feel like this isn't fair, especially because a lot of the people who complained about these journals are the same people who got their "fame" by doing the exact same thing.
The real question is when you're gonna start policing all the NSFW icons floating around. I'm sick of seeing nasty ballsacks or overt tits as an icon.
But an admin contacted me saying it was too NSFW and I had to put a shirt on it, seen here http://i.imgur.com/CRFHrJy.png
Fun thing is, just yesterday I saw several icons with boobs that hang over the "avatar" only that the nipples are crossed with tape.
So I felt like.. wow, I can't have a humorous icon but they can have outright NSFW icons?
so much for the whole clean icons rule.
I have to say this for the ones that shake or flash too much, too. 9 ~ 9
I was just skimming thoroughly journals as check box of journal as I don't want to read as removed them off. Sound not hard to do. :\
I don't want to see butts, boobs, and ballsacks. I've got my FA on SFW so I DON'T have to see that.
I could care less about the raffle/YCH reminders.
I am sick to death of not being able to view this site around my family because of all the tits!
How hard is it to right click "open in new tab" things you wanna see and nuke the rest?
rly hard apparently.
Like: Please help so and so.
vs.
Please help so and so, and if you spread the word we're going to raffle off a sketch!
I guess this'll also put an end to that $1111 raffle that
Good riddance if you ask me.
;3
Would posting the finished product after posting the WIP of it not be aloud?
A lot of users have been posting raffles requiring users to watch and/or repost to join. Why bother if they weren't watching you in the first place? ||P
Consistency would be awesome.
Yes, there was plenty of spam, but it's easily ignored.
Journals themselves are hard to notice. A single journal by one artist is going to get to swept with all the journals.
What I'm saying is I notice raffles and such because of the spam...I'm going to notice 6,7,12, etc journals of the same raffle. I'm less likely to notice one with 100s of other journals to go through.
And I was also under the impression, and I'm sure I've seen it said the admin (No, I couldn't possibly dig it up if it did exist...) before that deleting and reposting YCH ads (so only one exists at the time) was allowed.
I thought it was pretty simple, honestly, but I guess that's just me! =D
Also, I have a couple of images which come in lined and colored versions, do they have to be disposed of under the new rule?
Thanks the FA gods in putting a stop to this madness!
I agree completely that there should be a definite set of rules as to what sort of things should and shouldn't be permitted with raffles - because they were definitely starting to get out of hand - but denouncing EVERY repost-raffle as spam seems kinda like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As several others have mentioned, journals aren't like visual submissions - they are a more inconspicuous way to gain exposure among your circle of watchers (and, subsequently, THEIR circles of watchers) without forcing everyone to see it on the front page.
I agree that it has gotten out of hand, but I would like to say that I am disappointed in seeing it handled this way. Obviously the general feel of this comment section is against me, and obviously my disappointment is unlikely to change anything, but I still wish the decision-makers would rethink this measure a little in a way that works for everyone. If FA is supposed to encourage up-and-coming artists, this will stifle that considerably.
I am certain you can find a better less-tacky way of advertising if you have talent that is worth spreading around. It just takes effort and proper networking. :3
The sooner we stop these types of things, the sooner we will get more appropriate behaviors in their place. :3 It'll be for the best, promise.
Sadly, Facebook is making everyone forget about how to have proper interpersonal contact or something. ^_^;; If you are social and personable with those that follow you, they are much more likely to be social and personable with their friends and mention you. That's the old fashioned way of doing it and it breeds a much better quality of person as well. :3
I can live with the way it stands now. I still can't say I'm happy about it, but it's a bit more of a compromise.
carmen
(No Subject) Posted: 2 days ago
NOR ENCOURAGE in any way/shape/form.
As it is true raffles are a good way of exposure for artists in the community and some people seem worried about this and have had no response here
If someone wants to repost something, they are more than welcome to. The point of the rule change is to specifically block 'Must watch+repost+sell-your-soul to be eligible. Receipt of soul-sale required to be uploaded to your FA page then photographed on your monitor next to a handwritten will giving me everything you own,' type of contests. :P
There's only one thing here which I don't agree with. Not only disagree with it, but actually find shocking: Why are users forbidden to even talk about re-uploading images in journals? Does this mean free speech is being controlled to such a radical extent? I find this strange and somewhat disturbing, and would kindly ask the admins to please look into it. Users are responsible for their own actions, and those actions are the only thing there should be rules about IMO. I don't plan to break any website rules, but I don't wish to become afraid of even talking freely on FA! Please don't touch free speech and add rules about controlling people in such a way!
When I first read the rule, I thought it means that if you post a journal saying "You should upload your old art again" it would be censored and the user could get banned. I still find it too drastic, and consider users should be allowed to talk freely. Of course it's not my website so I have no say, this is only what I consider would be right. If it's aimed only at organized spamming contests, then I can understand it.
Sorry for over-reacting also, especially before understanding the issue better.
I feel like this would reduce submission spam.
How frequent do these reminders have to be to be considered spamming?
I have weekly events that I announce when they occur, and except for the journals, I remove them once the event is over. I'm hoping that is not considered spamming.
I do a monthly free raffle where I commission an artist who can use the boost and free raffle off a slot to be in the pic. The journal reposting helped more people see an artist that they might not have noticed before. Now I'll only be able to reach pretty much the same people every time? That kinda defeats the purpose of doing the raffles in the first place. That is a big shame. I have helped out a fair number of people that way. This is going to hurt a lot of people's business. So what can I do to still be able to do this and not break these new rules?
some people keep an eye out for free raffles because its fun and some people don't have the money to buy art so they join a raffle.
so thank you FA, for supporting whining lazy morons and making it even harder for less fortunate people have a chance at free art. fucktards.
I mean...there is a FA chrome widget you can download to block out key words like YCH or Raffle or streaming
I like the raffle things cuz I find new people to watch and now I don't have that :/
It's about discouraging raffles that have the requirement "you MUST repost this journal XYZ times" or "RAFFLE REMINDER, ONE DAY LEFT*NEW JOURNAL*" "RAFFLE REMINDER, 12 HOURS LEFT *ANOTHER JOURNAL*". Instead you can edit the existing journal text to reflect the deadline and not expect anyone to repost the journal and it'll all be within the rules. By my understanding anyway. :]
I'm trying to tell them that it isn't a raffle or such, so the journals are okay.
Hope that helps. ^_^
And anything created before the date of this announcement is exempt from being removed. It only applies to newly posted journals. :3 Hope this helps.
And by that I mean the person didn't even create the base, they are just coloring it and going "DIS COULD B URS"
Oh, and not say "if you don't like it there are other galleries out there", that's an extremely unprofessional and just plain RUDE response. I thought this was the furry fandom where everything was warm and open and inviting, and people actually cared?
When the largest furry art community ever is spending more time figuring out how to restrict users instead of giving them adequate options and features, it's easy to understand why other communities look down on furry productivity verses drama.
That's my thoughts, at least. :3
I can agree with your character here thing. But really the journals?
Fantastic…
The only issue I see with this, is that since I'm not a big name artist, in fact I'm pretty much a nobody. But the way I show that I have a YCH up, is by posting a reminder (WHICH I DELETE AFTER A DAY!). It takes me a super long time to draw things out, so a new and unique image each time is much more difficult than it would be for someone like a big artist.
Think about the little people too D: We're just trying to get by like everyone else!
My thoughts on the YCH reposting (as a note I'm kiiiinda against the idea but I understand the draw of it) is that there should be a one-time reposting allowed per timed event/auction. I plan on suggesting that once this initial chaos has subsided.
What's that?
But yeah, I used to be the little guy and even though I've worked my way to get my own watchers (took almost 5 years), advertising like raffles and journals is like the only way to promote your artwork (the product) these days becuase there's so many artists competing one another. Back then it wasn't necessary but it's not the little people to be blamed for.
FA really needs to adopt a better system for artists to promote artwork, not destroying it!
Big no here.
Too intimate and people WILL try to take advantage of you, full stop. You can never be intimate with business.
Business is supposed to be emotionless. It's supposed to be about gaining you publicity through advertising, and making yourself known. You can't rely on other people to make you known EVER.
That's just bad to expect other people to do it for you to.
You... might be misunderstanding something.
Being personable is important. Being emotionless is bad. Intimate doesn't mean flirting, it doesn't mean being walked all over. Basic ground rules still apply. Good business practices are important, but so is making sure the customer feels comfortable. And quite honestly, if you're at the level of talent that you can't afford to make friends, then you've probably got a decent sized fanbase and can do whatever you want anyway.
And no, if you treat people well and give them a great experience, around here, they WILL spread your name around. If you're not getting your name spread around, it's because the experience was mediocre at best. *shrugs* Furry as a whole doesn't work the way most places of business do. It's becoming a little less that way in recent years, but it's still a fairly well-knit community where word of mouth is powerful and frequent. If anything is killing that, it's stuff like Facebook and Tumblr where sourcing stuff becomes an undesired fact.
In my opinion, you must think of word of mouth as a plus only since that is a very unreliable way of advertisement as a whole. You can't watch what's being said, where it is being said etc.
Because when you want to market yourself you do need to advertise around how you can, and try to keep some form of control. Word of mouth is a bit like chinese whispers, that's kinda how rumors can start.
Yes be good to customers and be kind and polite. Make them feel comfortable.
Yeah make friends, whatever. But shouldn't that be done outside of business?
But when you say intimate, I don't think it's the right word to use when talking about publicity and advertising, even when talking to customers.
Without that line drawn between business and friendship it complicates things.
People just skim journals. No one actually reads them =/
its Incredibly hard to get anyone to click a journal unless it has FREE ART written all over the title.
God forbid that an artist actually has to rely on their own artistic talent and let peoples fav galleries act as the advertisement 8V
The other problem is promotion in general. If there's no way to promote yourself (like, say, through offering free art or auctions to gain yourself more watchers), you can't get commissioners to buy from you. If you can't get commissioners, you won't have people be able to promote you through word-of-mouth or via having a commission from them if the commissioner's main gallery (since that's where most random people look through as opposed to the favorites gallery).
Once again, it comes down to the fact that if you cut off all ways for the younger artists to promote themselves and BECOME popular by giving them a way to show off their art, then they'll be stuck in the unknown-zone while already well-established artists will thrive as people will flock even more to them as there's no competition anymore.
Also, paying for advertisement is still a thing you know.
The thing is, raffles work because they deal with a basic human emotion. Greed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying EVERYONE is greedy, but there are a LOT of people... myself included... who, given the choice of watching an untalented artist for the sake of watching an artist and promoting them or watching them for the sake of getting free art, will do the latter over the former.
Many people are more likely to do something you want if you pay them for it. In this case, you're offering them art... and they'll take it.
If an artist with a lesser amount of talent gets promoted in a journal, people will look at that journal, shrug it off if they don't like the skills of the artist and move on. If the promotion journal is about the chance to get free stuff AS WELL as promoting the artist, people will jump on it.
As for paying for advertising, many unknown artists use commissions as their only means of income. This money goes on food and living before anything else. I admit, I don't know the prices for banner advertisement on FA, but I can assure you that most, if not all, unknown artists will NOT be able to afford it. Not to mention that, while the ads ARE pretty, I rarely click on them, and unless they have some highly skilled art pictures on them, I barely even look at the banner ads. Most of the times I do click them are by mistake.
Of course, that's just me. My point being that unless the art in the banner is good, people won't click the banner. If someone who has a VERY limited income uses what little money they've earned on the banner and nothing comes out of it, then it's an utter waste of time and money in the first place.
That's not even to mention that the ads are very random and the chances are that your ad will barely ever show up at all! Hell, sometimes I'll see an ad that's on a page and not see it again for weeks. Sometimes I'll see the same ad on two consecutive slots.
The banners are NOT very efficient advertisement on FA.
For one, word of mouth is the best advertising there is, talented artists will be found eventually as they're commissioned and the commissions posted. It might take a while but their material will get out there. Before this rule, it was artists that may not necessarily be more talented, but had better social networking skills that would get more exposure and business than artists who may work harder and produce better work. Granted, from a business perspective, advertising is key (ask anyone old enough why Beta lost out to VHS) but FA is more an art site than a retailer, the art should come first and foremost with the business a secondary concern. Just my $0.02 (not an artist, take this how you will)
For pre-poses/ych, people can probably put them in the scraps and remove the auction/time limit. So it will be more like discounted/specific commissions.
Would be very nice with folders though... ya know, so people don't have to make multiple accounts, and it's easier to organize when it comes to craft vs art vs adult work.
This would also work for people who are great at taking up important issues and starting good debates.
Myself? i read the journal titles, then only pick those i wanna see, the rest? nuke, so i can just read things i care about happily lol
But back to the point, think of the new artists, this will kill another way for em to get some spotlight.
Are you out-right BANNING raffles or what?
The way I'm reading it, people aren't allowed to repost a journal... like, word-for-word... but does that mean people are allowed to promote a raffle or not?
If you're not banning raffles, but you ARE dis-allowing people to promote it to their watchers (who may or may not already be watching the artist in question), then how is that fair? That will practically kill off many, if not nearly all, artists' ability to spread their name around!
I get it on the YCHs, about people re-posting the same image over and over again... that can get annoying by having more than one of your submission notifications be the same picture by the same person. I even get how journal spam like that can get annoying, but again, cutting it off practically cuts off the chance of younger/newer artists getting their name out there by having potential new watchers finding them. It means that ONLY those already watching an artist will know about the raffle/YCH/auction... so no-one else will have a chance of finding it. The only ones who'll prosper from this are the already well-known and well-established artists who have a massive fanbase, because it means their newer competition will be even more greatly over-shadowed!
Newer artists can get their name out there by just submitting work that people will be interested in. And they can still post Commission advertisements once. And other people /can/ still promote them in a journal if they want, it just can't be prompted by the person being promoted.
Though I agree the YCH rule is a little ridiculous, you should be allowed at least ONE reminder.
If you imagine a spider diagram... one that starts from a main point and branches off from that... then the starting point is the raffle. Each branch off is equal to one person promoting the raffle. Then imagine that for each person who entered, two more branches come from this new "joint" (the entrant), and from each new joint two more new joints appear.
If you suddenly tell people they're no longer allowed to promote these raffles, then you're effectively cutting off everything past the first entrant.
This means that ONLY the people originally watching the artist will end up joining said raffle. Even if you tell artists to make it optional to promote the raffle, it means that people outside the artist's base influence will not hear about it, and thus never have heard of the artist. Hell, most of the artists I watch I met/started watching BECAUSE of raffles and auctions. Some of which I'm really good friends with nowadays.
Raffles/contests are still allowed. What is having a stop put to it is a requirement-for-entry that tells someone they must repost the journal in order to be eligible. This is considered underhanded / watch-farming. However this is still a community based site that relies heavily on word of mouth. There's nothing that says people cannot repost the journal to support the artist. It's just intended that such reposts be voluntary. :3
I personally think the YCH thing can be improved on further, but I am sure that some people have been abusing it by delete-repost-delete-repost. And believe me, people will always try and get around rules for their own benefit.
Now if you could just filter out journals that say stream or "streaming", as I feel that seeing that all day every day is a form of spam.
Maybe you could allow users to have filters that allow you to block certain words in journals?
But being able to filter out words in either journals or submissions would rock!
Or maybe this is just the quiet and subtle shift towards banning all self promotion unless you want to buy that $20 ad space. :>
There are several changes to YCH and Art Auctions coming soon that artists will find greatly benefit them.
(I apologize, but could you possibly note a reply. This journal has reached the stage it crashes my browser on my phone, and I have no PC. Thank you for taking time to read my concerns, at least. ^^ )
and think it's allowed to create raffle journals, just not make others link to it in their journals
Haha!
1 against 46,473 ain't half bad.
Is it prohibited now as well?:
One has a streaming image: one version is posted as a regular gallery submission for people to +fav & comment (doesn't have inscriptions maybe) and another copy is reposted during stream online and taked down after the streaming ends - I've noticed it's a very common habit of FA...
So it's over, and there mustn't be a permanent version to +fav and one when "I'm online" version? Or maybe this could be an exeption due to its functionality?
What about reference sheets: one version SFW and another one NSFW? May these coexist in one gallery or not anymore?
the note a friend or two of this. making the background the problem is all it is going to do.
this is a really quick antisocial fix to things punishing those in the right more than those in the wrong in the long run.
as for YCH this is the 3rd time going on these beasties? sheesh kill it with fire already
If the original posting is deleted, is another one that is updated allowed to be posted? Say, I post a sheet of preposes with 6 poses. 1 sells. I delete the original posting and resubmit the preposes minus the one that sold. Is that allowed?
Is it allowed to have a sheet of preposes in scraps and periodically post a single prepose that is part of that sheet as a reminder that the preposes are there?
For the second question, i dont know though
The journals I don't really mind as I nuke them by the title - but if it puts a huge strain on the on servers (as I suspect the recent big ones do), It's a very understandable choice
Anyways, yes I want to be popular, but that doesn't mean I'll be jealous of people who are, what sort of weird logic is that, I will definitively not be jealous of those who spam their watchers. I might be a bit jealous at those with amazing drawing skill, but that only inspires me to draw and improve more - something that will take years. I didn't know ignoring spammers where a horrible act lol
I don't watch them, the whole point was that their spam is removing work people put a lot of work and hours into - robbing them of future watchers and commissions, you probably forgot that in all those personal attack though.
And no, but honestly I was getting tired of being told how horrible a person I was for wanting people to earn their way to the top, and not spam their way.
You still just bragged about it though....
Yes I care for fame.... that is why I spend 6h a day training and drawing, getting critique on my work and try to give to fellow artist who also are trying to improve. That is why I take my time to reply and have fun with my watchers, and those I watch and care about. That is also why I draw for my own own interest and not what's popular... If I wanted fame there is a hundred ways to get it, I'm looking for solid people to share my experiences with and learn from/with - and the spam on the frontpage are pushing those people away
-
do you get my point now?
I think you may be overreacting by just a bit here. And given that not everyone has hours a day to spend on sifting journals, I think this change is more than warranted. I've seen those with less time try and use FA at times and they eventually just 'give up' and delete everything. The less 'clutter' gets left around, the more focus the other information will get, and the less likely people will ~need~ to spam/repost. We need to work together and stop trying to abuse the system and stop trying to abuse human nature. ^_^
Those are my thoughts, at least. :3
hahahahahahahahahahabout damn time. I was sick of seeing countless journals about things I don't care about.
How does someone with only 3000 or less watchers get the word out that they're hosting a give away?
How to I find more bidders for a piece if I can't repost that piece that they would want to bid on?
As someone that has recently quit their job to switch to taking commissions this might hinder that. Which fucking sucks, as the only reason I got another bid on my recent auction is because I reposted the ych as an advert....
What about someone with only 300 or less watchers??
Artist that's new to the community, needing watchers NOT a commissioner because he wants more popularity.
Someone trying to raise money for a good cause (not sure what that would be, but I am sure its been done)
As far as YCH goes, I am not a fan of the them, but I do think that 'no reposting allowed' for timed events is a bit extreme. I think a single repost for the entire life of the timed event/auction should be allowed as a reminder that it is going on. Beyond that, I agree with the rule change because many people try to exploit the rules to spam the heck out of people. If you want to get upset, get upset with those that were deleting-reposting-deleting-reposting non-stop.
The less noise there is, the easier it is to be heard. Right? :)
But I don't agree with the YCH rules. If you update the description in a YCH submission, no one is going to know. Maybe if FA had the same feature as DA/Weasyl that alerts Watchers when you change something, then maybe. But updating the description is useless. And doesn't get the submission on the front page to attract more participants. I feel it would be fair to at least allow ONE reminder.
Although I wouldn't doubt if this is just a scheme to make buying FA ad space the only option for self promotion. Which I don't like because I've read mixed reviews on the service regarding Ad space that really averts me from ever doing it.
The most riddiculus thing about the FA adverts is the fact I just need a free thing called "AdBlock" and I don't see these ads (I was really fed up with ads advertising +18 things while I don't want to know about these) So I doubt in the effectivenes of these.
At this rate, I might not have much choice then to start looking more seriously into SoFurry, and maybe dust off my old DA account since they actually have taken steps to IMPROVE their site rather than drive people away x.x
I'm looking forward to get the answer too...
Repost journals are really just chainmail. Sure, you could maybe get one or two people to fall for it, but I can assure you that the fast majority of the people out there don't even click these journals. The only people that participate in it are the people that are interested in free shit, not exactly your target audience.
-FA's ads don't seem to be subject to SFW mode, so even if you're in SFW mode you may still see something promiscuous/18+ in the ads. Not something you want grandma or your schoolteacher to see (And yea, I know the argument that "well maybe people shouldn't be on FA at those kinds of times then", well people still do and that was the purpose of the SFW mode).
-Ads are just annoying in general. Whether they're legitimate links or not, some people don't want to see the same Gif over and over when navigating FA. Not to mention they have the potential to slow down your load time as well.
-They're just too lazy to whitelist FA, mostly because they don't care about finding new artists.
So yea, considering the majority of people are like the above, I don't find FA Ads to be a profitable investment.
Actually, the NOTE spam is the real problem. Not raffle promoting...-_-
Probably yeah, mainly.
BTW on DA and YT regular accounts are somehow hacked and send (dangerous)spam, I'm wondering if FA experience that too.
Da took care of their spam problem somehow, I haven't seen these since then, but I'm not sure if they're 100% gone. No YT I've seen them a few days ago, when whas the last time I explored YT's comments.
Or price guides? (some artists repost their price guides several times depending on if they are open or closed for commissions?
New people wont be able to get their name out there as easily anymore,
I get the underlying paranoia, but as a whole we just need to focus more on being community driven again rather than trying to take shortcuts. "People need to bother talking to each other again!"
As for the variant images, does this mean ALL images, or just YCH stuff? Cause I've been posting two variants of the same image and throwing one in scraps afterwards, so was curious if that's not allowed anymore or what?
And raffles are still allowed, just not ones that have a barrier-of-entry that ~requires~ reposting.
Yeah. I can see how that works, you can still say "Post a journal if ya want, but it's not required." and that'd probably be fine.
If folks want to advertise other users' auction(s) of their own accord, that's perfectly fine, but it might be best to preemptively discourage people from telling their watchers to do it so we don't end up with a new kind of spam taking over journals.
YOU.
Band
Width
Lets make sure small artists who do good work but get overshadowed by the pop fur artists by blocking help from other users via journal
Lets pander to the popular artists! Never mind that other ones are out there as well.
I really support this sarcastic comment.
I have seen you post sometimes so its hard to read your English a bit
Yes, I do.
Ohh... I'm sorry:( guess I need to sleep now. (btw by 'sarcastic comment' I was reffering to everything after the first line of your comment)
DarkOverord We stated only where it's required to enter. You can still promote your friends.
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/statu.....75062080794624
Or you know, just don't force people to relink you?
But now it's not allowed to be coerced.
On the up-side, every time you DO see an artist being advertised by someone from now on, you can have a reasonable amount of trust that it's because they're amazing/awesome, and not just because someone's trying to get something for free.
DarkOverord We stated only where it's required to enter. You can still promote your friends.
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/statu.....75062080794624
There you go XP
How does that make any sense? We're advertising a specific image, therefore that image needs to be displayed. Displaying a completely different image to sell another is false advertising.
What I usually do is put the original image in scraps and upload the same as a reminder.
That's actually what the admins told me to do personally. So I really don't understand how we are supposed to keep our ychs current....
and before i had like 3 or 4 of the same submission in my gallery, and the admins went through my stuff and deleted some of it, and sent me a note saying put the rest in scraps. now they are saying you get one image per user.... that is crap.... how are we supposed to make money? Especially when (idk if the same goes for you) but the YCH is the best thing that sells..... :/
and that whole *one image for each user* is crap. I made these feet icons, and since they all "looked similar" i had to put all of them in scraps. I don't think many people look through scraps, so i stopped selling them....
I post a YCH, then post another full colored and detailed image and then in the desc. stat that this is what it will look like or something. Make you work twice as hard for little to no pay off. I agree with the spam thing but the YCH idea has me a little pissed.
You're still allowed to recommend people via whatever method you like! Now nobody is -forced- to, in order to enter a raffle etc.
For instance I want to raffle off... a commission with myself and another. People can still post in my journal "Ooh me I wanna be in it", but I can't say "Now you have to go advertise me"
I'm not 100% sure on YCH restrictions. I think it's to prevent spamming the same image/journal day after day about the same upcoming event.
are reposts of the same/modified images advertising a *STREAM* permitted? usually these get deleted once the stream is offline, but most people do post the same ol' stream image to advertise it when they go live.
this is still okay, right?
I remember this topic being discussed awhile ago. Basically you CAN use the same image for streams, but you cannot post a stream announcement more than once in a span of 24 hours.
I've been using the same streaming logo also, and have seen any others so the same. It doesn't seem to be a problem :)
this was going to happen eventually. It
's understandable. I just do free art XD
So by the rules put in front of me, I shall abide.
*bro-fist*
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4281777/
and
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4282108/
"* Submissions used to sell art (e.g. commission auctions, adoptables, YCH) may be uploaded but are limited to one submission per account at any given time. "
So I'm a little amazed at the amount of surprise I'm seeing here; it isn't like they haven't touched on the reuploading thing before. Then again, if someone hasn't been here since those journals, I guess they could be taken by surprise.
Not saying I can't see both sides of the issue, though, and I don't totally agree with either side completely. It just seems like there could be a better compromise somehow. The problem would be getting people to follow it so they don't have to come out with reminders.
I think the AUP needs a bit of a revision (e.g. defining what makes an image adult/moderate/general since I don't think that's covered)... ah well, glad they're gonna keep a better eye on these things, I've unfollowed several artists for spamming reminders / streaming notices.
The biggest problems are that AUP/TOS tend to be an eyesore, and so naturally they turn people off from reading them.
But yeah, I'm actually really pretty glad to see this, I get why reminders happen, and I've made reminders about things in the past, and I get that the pictures reach a wider audience, but many people abuse it to the max. It's sad for those who use it responsibly.
and yeah, true. I feel that if someone's uploading art (or rather, joined the site) they already agreed to abide by the AUP/TOS... kinda a derp to not read them.
But yeah, the formatting on these documents could be a bit more appealing, I agree. I'm one of those people that mushes words together if they're formatted badly, that's happened a few times with that page.
In b4 a new rule gets added |=(XD
Those are both EST? :P
And what about stories and music tracks that have the same thumbnail? Are you going to take those down too?
Also, I still think Falvie didn't deserve to get suspended. She wasn't a scammer. All of the art she created was genuine and of the same style (with a few differences as she improved), and regarding a particular incident she legitmately forgot who those sketches were going to. Speaking of which, the customers still technically got their commissions.
But go ahead and disregard (or even delete) my comments though, since clearly one opinion never makes a difference...
That means all the "Neat artist!" journals/posts/stuff you see now is LEGITIMATELY someone going "holy crap!" instead of "ooh maybe I get free things!"
You're still allowed to make content regarding someone else, their work, that stuff, but you're not allowed to use FA to convince others to do that for you (chain-letter style journals etc)
Ych is gone *weeps for joy*
I'm not doing it to create spam but, rather, to put something I commission into my own gallery as well as giving the original artist some link-love.
Yours,
Sylvan
What we don't permit:
All media:
which was neither made directly by nor directly for the uploader
As you are the recipient, you are, as well as the original artist, allowed to upload commissions etc. :P
But thank you: that should work.
I can agree with the 'spam my raffle' journal posts, but the old YCH rule of being able to post reminders to spam, or be able to have the auction itself in spam so you could repost a reminder later on in your main gallery was incredibly helpful in reaching new watchers. Posting things a million times is dicks, but visual reminders on an ART site is a lot more catching than a journal reminder that a 'YCH reminder' title doesn't provide the same visual catch of 'ooh shiny I want that!' and will most likely get skipped over just as easily as the Raffle Reminder spam posts :/
FA really does need some kind of filter system, maybe similar to so-furry where you can choose to ignore things tagged YCH if you choose, but they also require YCH postings to be tagged properly. That way, artists that heavily rely on the submission adds would still be able to post a couple while those that have some hair up their ass about YCH style pieces wouldn't even see them at all?
If sofurry wasn't so.... 'questionable'... at least they do have a decent filter system and stuff, though. Using the actual search on here is really hit or miss *and soooo few people tag things, self included, lol*
It'd be great if FA would implement all the features those sites have to offer. Then they could likely eliminate a portion of the rules they have in place (including this one).
I haven't heard of Weasyl, though. I'll definitely have to check it out. And DA... is full of entitled 13 year olds that want epic art for the DA point equivalent of 10 cents *shakes head* been there done that cried furiously.
And yes, Folders were once a promise. And here we are years later and we have yet to see them. And the Commission Info tab existed before, but it was so broken and useless that they just eliminated it altogether instead of fixing it. And even now, the new version isn't even that great. I don't use it.
That weasly site looks pretty sleek, though. I'm definitely gonna be checking it out more later on when I don't feel like a lazy butt about going through and reposting 100+ pieces.
A single drop in the bucket starts to add up eventually, right?
I could handle one or two advertisement journals, but it just gets out of hand
(I used repost journals for free art giveaways as an incentive to get bonus art. Everybody gets something, people that post a journal get something extra. I just know it'd fall under that rule though.)
That's the rulechange. The sole rulechange. Let me quote and bold the applicable part:
Journals and submissions which require users to repost or link to the raffle/contest"
I cannot make a contest and, as part of the rules, require a shoutout.
Would be nice to see this implemented first party as part of the website though.
If you have a YCH auction, you can't repost the image you used for it, or minor modifications to it.
If you have a 'clothed' and 'nude' version, same pose and everything else, you're fine.
/from my reading.
BOUT TIME :3
What we don't permit:
All media:
counting more than 6 in submissions of near-identical content or appearance
Which is often what Fursuit photoshoots fall into.
And fursuit photos fall within the AUP
See this is why FA needs to implement a filter system; so individual users can toggle which journals they want to see or not.
And the same goes for free art raffles. Being completely honest, the only reason I ever even hold raffles is to have people link back to me and advertise for me. It's where I get at least 75% of my watchers.
And yes, this can be a drag, but then again, it was greatly annoying to others and then it got abused. Heavily.
Like if I wanted to draw attention to my Furry Fuel Energy Drink, and to do so, I was giving away 3 panel stickfigure comics to the first five respondants, on the condition they post it to their gallery with a link to my campaign journal.
The condition is attached to an item they are receiving... ...as long as it actually qualifies as 'specifically for them' under the AUP, as well as unique enough from each other to be obviously separate things.
But that makes sense then. Just reading over a lot of the 'this flies, that doesn't' stuff so far, it's really confusing and sounds horribly restricted suddenly on what can/can't be done o 3 o
As a condition to enter a contest, you cannot require people to make a journal.
That's it.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11908422/ for the Furry Fuel, it's a real thing.
And it's less about the raffle bits and more changing the YCH rules yet again. just a little bit of a change, but for a while, you could have the main auction in your spam section, then be able to post up a 'reminder' one in your actual gallery later on since the rules for spam vs main gallery were different in what was/wasn't allowed. Now there's an absolute 'no reminders' rule for them regardless, it seems.
And that solution does work, but it still limits it to my watchers and the few people that see it on the front page. Still, that is a good idea and I think I will do that at some point!
Too bad I'm lazy, a Yellow Pages would be great xD
Thank you SO MUCH!!!
Then again this is FA and I'll be shocked if anything is implemented well at all.
i doubt it'll happen though
even though it'd be useful and there would be happier people
As far as raffles go there's really only so much they'll be limited, and they are certainly NOT the only form of exposure. As someone who's attempted to do a raffle in the past only to have no entrants whatsoever, it's definitely not something that should be preserved if it means people still have to deal with spam.
Never mind that there are other venues that you can advertise raffles - twitter, tumblr, deviantart, all common enough services that many or all of your followers probably have one or two of.
You have to put in an actual effort in order to gain exposure. There are sufficient plenty other ways to gain exposure - encouraging your commissioners to submit your drawings; drawing honest, actual art for people whose designs you like, actively engaging and connecting with other artists until you become more and more of a common name; and plain old word-of-mouth. And if only for sheer abundance of people (especially of people who all simultaneously need money) just having your art out there will not bring you new watchers. If you rely on raffles so terribly that it uproots everything now that they're disallowed, it might be good to think about whether or not you're doing enough to really ground your online presence - because doing raffles is only a small fraction of what you're capable of accomplishing! If your work brought in commissioners based on people who wanted a chance at your art for free you will probably do just fine without them if you really do the legwork.
Even though the possibility of gaining new commissions is absolutely invaluable - I know personally that being able to get a few here has made the difference between my family and I being able to eat - it has to be considerate of everyone else's inboxes. Annoyed folks will probably not be tripping over themselves to see your raffles, anyway. U.U
Thank you again Fender and the whole team!
http://forums.furaffinity.net/members/794-yak
Him.
Oh dont give me that bullshit.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5058966/
^ the only time they worked on this site and that was just the servers..
www.furaffinity.net/journal/4854960/
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4772392/
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4650507/
^ all just site stability never mind the upgrades promised or even folders.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WILLING TO VOLUNTEER FOR coding the site with new upgrades.
But oh no we much rather tighten up rules with draconian measures than actually work on the site! Heaven forbid!
I thought not.
Relax, enjoy the site for now, and know they WILL eventually update things. A big undertaking with many factors to consider done by people who have more to do in life than just FA, okies? :3
Maybe if someone could code on this site a 'ych' keyword block could be in order. Though honestly I guess it's easier to just ban behaviour outright than actually manage the actions in question.
1. I will no longer have the opportunity to discover new artists I don't watch yet through seeing advertising from their friends if they have an event / sale / etc?
2. I am no longer allowed to advertise for them through journals to help some lesser-known artists I watch be seen? Not even voluntarily?
3. So if I miss a neat YCH, I won't see a reminder image of it?
4. I'm not allowed to inform my watchers of things I see that may interest some, such as adopts, YCH, auctions, sales, giveaways, preposes, raffles, or anything?
This will be detrimental to those artists just starting up, and they will have less exposure. Not everyone can afford even a $20 banner ad, and some people use adblockers, negating their effectiveness.
Even somewhat more known artists appreciate it when their fans spread the word voluntarily, as it essentially can expand their base to people who have not yet watched them.
I have personally been thanked for advertising for others, even when not asked, and have had people say they appreciate that I try to help people through my journals.
FA has a large userbase, but if they don't see things, it may as well be a small userbase of blind mice scurrying about aimlessly. Not everyone sits at the front page to refresh. Not everyone has unlimited data. This isn't meant as sarcasm, but as a thought to provoke more thought through imagery.
And for the record, I did not enter the $1111 giveaway. I could use the funds, but I don't watch for chances at things in and of themselves. I watch because I like what I see, and I DID appreciate being linked to artist's art chances, as it allowed me to view more galleries, find new artists, and see things I may otherwise never have seen.
It was suggested in the past, that a new submission / journal type or checkbox be established for art chances / YCH, preposes, adopts, and an option to watch / not watch journals, or types of submissions, and even filter out keywords. I believe that would be a viable way to help the user filter out what they don't wish to see. Though really, clicking a checkbox and clicking delete / remove has worked for me quite well. Maybe I have a higher tolerance than most.
Thank you very much for any answers you can provide to clear things up.
I didn't say they asked me to advertise. Those journals advertising for someone you already watch are new to someone. I must be odd, as I like being exposed to artists I've not seen before, and like helping others.
The bottom line is not everyone will be pleased either way, but it should fall more to the side of artists, in my opinion.
A few ideas. Properly tagging their images, being sociable, maybe streaming once in a while, and through very pleasant experiences with commissioners. :3
Unfortunately, a few people went and abused human nature by unlocking everyone's sense of greed. It's bad enough that so many people stalk 'freebies' that there's no chance of someone laid back and non-greedy of getting them, but I was never a fan of the 'repost-to-enter' style of contests anyways. I think there's better ways. Treat someone well and they're likely to go out of their way to thank the artist. ^_^
I'm not being argumentative, but I still say a new artist with no contacts and a rucksack of dreams needs more than hoping someone notices them, and needs a way to attract attention. Not everything happens without a little push sometimes. How many artists have quit because they couldn't get noticed? How many known artists gained watchers by giving some things away in art chances?
It's rare I even search for something I want to view unless it's for providing context or reference. I see these journals and what do I do before entering...? I check galleries. I've found many artists I've watched that way, and still do, as well as fave-bombed some galleries out of the blue.
The human experience is valuable, yes. Not everyone can stream. It took me awhile to open up online. FA is big and foreboding to new people. How did I get started? Simple...The one person I knew journaled for people to meet me...Overnight I had 19 watchers. I won't forget the impact spreading the word can have.
If you refer to the $1111 giveaway, I could have used it, but my watch isn't earned by giveaways alone. I don't enter everything under the sun like some did.
There should be better ways, but I don't see any being offered yet. Art is a business, and even though this is an art site for the display of art, it's how the artists broaden their base. Without the ability to attract customers outside of their watchers, they may stagnate. Without artists there is no art. That's my opinion, anyway.
(I'm surprised my phone could handle loading this journal with all the comments.) X3
By all means, continue to do what you do. Spread the word of people that you like, continue to snoop around at random people. Everyone's become so used to having things spoon-fed to them that I think they've forgotten how to dig around themselves.
As for what to suggest to a brand new artist... Just draw. Draw what you want to draw, and continue to improve your art. Polish it, learn new things, and draw for the sake of drawing. When your talents are good enough to warrant commissions, you will begin to be asked if you take commissions. From there, it's a matter of a good PR experience. These things take a lot of time, and too many people want to jump into making a living out of it from ground zero. *shakes head* I've seen many people end up using sob stories to drum up more sales. From artists that really shouldn't be taking commissions in the first place for many reasons. ^_^;;;;
Another tactic for gaining ground is to do fanworks of things that you personally like. This will get you friends in the community from people who search. Obviously, doing nothing but fanworks is kind of a bad thing, but it's certainly a nice way to enter into things. The less tasteful way of gaining ground is to be expressive of a fetish, or for many artists, be willing to work with a large number of fetishes. You do something nice for a fetish group and suddenly many others are willing to get a piece from you because they trust your talents in executing said fetish. I don't personally recommend this, but I can attest to it working. XD
Anyway, enough rambling. Thanks for making a sensible reply. ^_^
Oh yes, I look at faves, fave from there, and if I have time I jump into galleries. It isn't all from raffle-type journals, but they're a good source for me as well. But if I spent time searching for art...well, who needs sleep when there's FA? X3
I do know what you mean about people jumping into commissions post haste without any real groundwork lain for doing the work. It's why I participared in some freebies, to give newer artists who seemed nice a chance to get better so they could start offering commissions later, as they wanted practice first. But again, I only found them through those freebies journals.
I do have sympathy for people in tough spots, which is why I make some of my advertising. (And also why I asked later in this thread about those "Help me...spread the word" journals. One never knows when they may be in that spot themselves...)
*nods* Gain watchers...switch to all fanart of a show...lose some watchers. It happened with someone I had watched. I don't begrudge anyone who does fanart, and even watch some accounts that I don't watch the show they do fanart of, but must say their art is wonderfully-good...and they don't just do fanart.
Yeah, I've seen some artists start drawing fetishes, then get lots of commissions for it...even though it isn't for them, because they need the money. One even asked their watchers what to do, and I said to establish their comfort level and stick to it. Experiment if they wished, but don't be pressured into art they didn't want to draw. That's their right. (Also their right is setting prices. One has had someone bash them after they refused a commission because the person offered less than half their rate. That's not right. Move on and find someone else, don't bash the artist who wouldn't slash their rate for an unknown party.)
No worries. I can be quite wordy myself. You as well, thank you.
Only gonna touch on one point here. "Help me" journals have become a little too rampant. Everyone's suffering, some just aren't vocal about it, or manage their finances well enough that they can keep themselves out of a similar position. I also see some people who will post journal after journal of the same problems. It's no longer about getting help at that point, it's about getting sympathy. x_x And it pains me, but it also turns my heart cold. They won't take advice to fix their situation and continue to repeat the same problems, for example. And then there's those that have gone as far as to create a false sob story for the attention or money. :(
I like that the furry fandom is such a nice place full of nice people, but I really wish there weren't people taking advantage of it in various ways. :(
I understand the hesitation. There is a risk that they really aren't having said issue. But if they are, I do sympathize. Some don't listen to advice and the cycle repeats. Some do listen, but are stuck in situations they can't get out of immediately. One just has to go with their gut, but unless proven false, not deride the predicament. I would like to believe in the goodness of others and that most troubles posted about are not fabrications. The fandom is an amazing place full of people like falendahand. Help exists, and I also wish there were nobody who would take advantage of it without true need.
I guess in that case, "giver be wary."
I am personally on disability income, living with a greymuzzle furry who has been like a second father to me. Asperger's Syndrome + Cannot hold a full time job for mental or physical reasons. But I keep this mostly to myself because I have the skills and the friends to exist on severely-limited income. When I've actually needed assistance, like with my most recent convention, I managed to more than cover the costs of the con where I could continue to attend and entertain.
I think it may be more valuable for these people to receive proper advice. To sit down with them, deduce wtf is going on underneath everything, and direct them to where they should go. For some, their best option is quite possibly to move back in with family. Too soon to be moving out on their own. For others, there might be something deeper underneath things and they need some genuine life counselling. It's just rare for people to take the time to sit down and help out like this, or if they do it's to get laid. x.x;;;
And then there's the experience I had with someone who was suicidal despite being in a seemingly decent situation overall. Such people can cause severe divisions because they don't actually want outside help despite making public cries. They want help from specific people and other things end up being more detrimental. Still have no clue why that whole bomb exploded, but I unwatched as soon as they were 'okay' because my advice was unwanted. Heh... Just, lotsa things that make it hard to give people the help they truly need.
I'm sorry you have difficulties to overcome, but am glad to hear you have the werewithal to do so, as well as the support system you have in place as well. :) I think that may be part of the problem with some, not having that support, so they reach out here.I don't fault anyone for that. But it sounds like the one person you tried to help was in need of counseling. I agree, some want help, but don't know what they need. Then there are some who reject help and make themselves miserable because it wasn't what they expected / wanted.
However, those who truly want or need help should seek it, and not rely on people on a site not geared for it. We'll do what we can, but we're not trained (most of us). So if any of you read this and are wanting help, please try to find it. Don't close up.
(Sorry, had to add that, just in case someone happens upon this.)
And thx for the conversation. It seems my pleasant replies are too intimidating for even the grumpy people to reply to. I haven't gotten but like, two other replies and I've made 60 posts in this thread, almost all very constructive. I'm not sure how to take that. :P
You take it and have pride in the fact you can have a positive effect on others. ^u^
The YCH reminder reposts was already a rule.
Q: Does this mean I can't advertise in journals?
A: You can advertise for auctions or YCH in journals as much as you want. You can even post new submissions and remind people in the descriptions. You can not repost the same image or a modified version of said image.
I should have said (regarding the YCH) if I can advertise in journals...for others. So much lag on my phone typing here, and I didn't notice my omission. I apologize. I don't create them myself. ^///^
But someone else brought up a good point...What about the "Help me" journals that ask for word spread? What about the journals where someone says they'll do a sketch for people that help their friend having a hard time? What of the journals that, for example, have brought up petitions and spreading word about them?
I'm not trying to be a problem, just trying to be clear on things.
But eliminating the YCH/etc reminders is indeed a damper on a lot of people as far as sales and exposure.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe one or two reminders. Though honestly, I've never watched anyone who did a daily / hourly reminder countdown. The most I ever saw was three. It really didn't bother me.
2: You can advertise for people, it just cannot be a requirement of the raffle
3: Artists are allowed to post reminders of the specific auction, either about it in an unrelated submission description or can post about it in journals:
If you want to post a reminder, you can do so in the description of a new submission with a unique and new image (NOT a repost or variant of the original) or via journal to your watchers.
4: You are perfectly allowed to advertise people:
Dragoneer@Dragoneer 12:03 AM
DarkOverord We stated only where it's required to enter. You can still promote your friends.
Sorry for the delay...I only have a phone and it's getting crashed by this journal. XD (I may not be able to reply again. :o )
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:37201338
... Just not constantly reminding people.
The last day of a YCH auction is the most important. (because that's the day everyone's been holding out to try to get into the slot for it)
The previous issue was that the rules were stating 'one repost at a time' so people would upload, delete, upload, delete, upload, delete. A single repost per event, and perhaps a limit of three timed events active per user, would be practical. (Consider combining them if someone really needs to have 'more at once'?
I know an artist with preposes that depends on them to make ends meet. They stayed within the letter of that limited reposting, one in the gallery at a time and the rest scrapped after the new one was posted immediately thereafter, and it did get them sales. To me, deleting the ones I don't want in submissions is no big hassle. I subscribed / watched them, after all. I'm sure they'd be willing to work with staff on a solution that doesn't crush them. They have many different images already combined onto sheets, and have a lot of variety. This new ruling really hurts their ability to do anything.
So we agree on things even though we disagree about other things...Yay! ^^
I feel a pose should be fully generated based on an artist's interpretation of a character's personality. Sadly, artists don't have the time to interpret such things, and commissioners these days have no depth to their character. It's become a predominately visual medium and every pic kinda looks like every other pic aside from the characters contained. ^_^;;;; I love dynamic pieces that set a scene but such talents are very rare. That said, the YCH artists that aren't promoting self-insertion/orgy pieces, the ones that actually try to generate a new pose meant for practice, those I can respect.
One post above did say that something else is in the pipeline to aid YCH artists. Ah, there it is: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:37199486
But yes, I think that for general timed events such as auctions, one (one period total ever) should be allowed for each one.
I don't enter any adult stuff...No interest. I'm one of those weird furs who likes clean art the most. X3 I also rarely have specific ideas for an artist other than some basic info. They use their noggins and come up with some good ideas.
I'll copy that URL in case I try to input it and crash again. X3 Thank you! I know they'll appreciate any help staff offers. Will it also apply to artists who have preposes just for sale, not for bid? (And the adopt artists who have galleries of things for sale...Will it help them?)
Heh, I say two reminders, if it's say a week long. Most don't run over that. One midway, removed when the "ends today" one is posted. I'm still an advocate of using the delete button. But either way, at least you'd allow them some sort of reminder. ^^
I enjoy adult artwork, but I dislike 99.9% of what I see on here. Most of it simply has no taste/tact. It's oversexed garbage or severely anatomically flawed and that just isn't sexy. In combination with above, I want to see art that speaks to my brain and says "This could possibly exist!" That's what makes such things appealing for me. And really, you end up finding that feeling more in clean art than adult art. So, yes, I prefer clean artwork most of the time and I almost-exclusively prefer clean stories (in regards to publish furry literature.)
The less reminders overall, the more visibility all reminders will get. ^_~ And as a note, I'm not an admin. Just someone intelligent wandering around this topic and helping out during some down time. :3 So I don't have an answer for ya on what they have planned.
I agree. The adult art I could possibly like has to have caring, loving characters with feeling, not just sex for the sake of seeing it. The same for literature. I prefer clean to erotic, though can see some passionate things being interspersed without the need to go "under the sheets."
True, which is why one or two is fine with me, but hourly isn't. I'm all for selling your work, just don't be "alarm clock snooze alarm" about it.
That's fine. To be honest, I think you'd have been a good candidate for their open call for admins a little while back. (I'm not because I don't Skype, and have limited data.)
my suggetion? upgrade the server so you dont have the shortages and lag. thats the problem not the journals... you got like freaking thousands last time you guys asked for money do it again hell id even help out i WORK off this site. hindering my work abilities... makes me want to focus on other sites in case you all decide HERP DERP YOU CANT SELL ART NOW TOO
kinda full of bull...
Calm your tits.
Further, people will live. There are other ways to do art contests.
and i would upload once a day or two for my 3 day character auctions
so three uploads all OHMYGLOBTHESPAMISTOMUCH!!!
i get the people who upload 5 times a day but NOT EVERYONE does that and overall i wont be holding auctions anymore as well that just took out two (3 if you could auctions and YCH as seperate things} of my ways to get income well FML i guess
As part of a condition to entry to a contest, you cannot require others to advertise. That's the rule change. The YCH Reminder/Spam was already a rule.
it HAS changed, SLIGHTLY, but it changed and the SLIGHTLY changed part is why im pissed off.
Because you're being as rational as a ferret on crack.
It would certainly be nice if these people would be more willing to share things they like without being offered something in return. So who knows, maybe we'll see a dramatic change in etiquette after this. But yes, raffles are still allowed, even raffles that require someone to be watching you are still allowed (though I personally still find this to be watch-farming), but anything that requires a repost to gain entry is no longer allowed. People ARE still allowed to share such raffles if they want to, however. :3
FINALLY.
How about users that post like 10 to 20 journals a day advertising one raffle in each one? Will that be disallowed? I know a couple of users who have sooooooooooo many journals (containing user icons of various other users) that it takes like, 5 minutes to load their journal list.
"If you're loud and obnoxious, you're only going to attract others who thrive on a loud and obnoxious atmosphere." ^_^;
Also...
...created after this posting (Nov 21 @ 6:00PM EST, 11:00PM EST)...
EST is listed TWICE...
^_^
I had actually been unwatching artists who just seemed to spam nothing but YCH reposts of the same damn lineart and omg the journal spam from the popupup status buying...
I think we all know what brought this on.
I took art classes in college, I've seen how hard artists work and how long they practice, had friends who were striving to do that for a living and were forced to give up on those dreams to find "real" jobs. And it sucks a whole lot, but that's life. Not everyone can be a full time (insert dream job here) or at least not right off the bat. And not many people on FA can make a living just doing up fetish/fandom furry art to begin with.
And considering the large amount of the user base that blocks Ads, well...
And no, a large amount of those actually seeking commissions do not block ads here because they understand that these ads are targeting them specifically. ;3 I've put an ad up in the past and gotten a decent response from it. I also have a friend who has done several and gets a lot of hits. Actually in her case, I keep telling her to point the ad to her FA page and not to the product page. People see something neat and they get curious.
My complaint on ads is there's no location where I can view all of them at once, so I'm forced to refresh, wait, refresh, wait. Especially if I see something as I'm transitioning and can't click before it loads the next page. XD
This makes white listing any site a gamble, they may have safe ad's 'now' but that is no guarantee when you log in the next day they start serving ads from sources that could end up loading malware onto your system.
In addition with no-script it can also save people bandwidth, which will help the people who use comcast when they roll out their 5gb a month limit and $1 per 1gb after that nation wide.
I want to keep my system safe and secure, they just want to make money and they have no interest in the safety of their users.
Tomorrow they could start serving ad's that pose a risk because it gets them more money than the current system and I would have no say in the matter.
Same with other sites, that is why I use an ad blocker and disable white lists and encourage everyone to do the same.
A well once poisoned can't be fixed and I consider a system running a web browser without an ad-blocker at least is as insecure and dangerous as taking a stock windows xp machine onto the internet using i.e. Version 6.
Riiiiiight.
*leaves quietly* >.>
So... yeha maybe add a new message thing that tells you when someones streaming, and autodeletes when they stop or something (or jsut have the user remove them like submissions, i jsut hate seeing them in my submissions)
I've actually lately started streaming less cause I dont want to annoy people with the announcements anymore... they're getting on my nerves cause sometimes when I have 6 new submissions theyre all just stream announcements bah! Tho I don't understand those who repost the same announcement for the same stream like every hour?!? If people aren't coming they aren't coming. u_u
It's a bit sad to see the raffles go, but eh, it started becoming way too popular and happen too regulary to be fun anymore.
good job taking it away for no apparent reason
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12120730/
This is the advert I use when I open for commissions. I've had to resort to this because I've noticed a tendency for people to simply nuke all their journals and therefore miss commission openings. Posting something that catches their eye has been far more effective. j
My question is, would I now have to make a completely new flyer every time I open? Cuz that's going to be kind of a pain in the ass to design a new one every week. :/
The YCH stuff is being limited due to the sheer volume and due to the unfinished nature of the pieces. As well as people's abuse of the system by posting and deleting the same reminder image with high frequency. (These are the problems I've gathered have been happening from the comments above.)
Keep up the good work. ^_^
ive been waiting for the results after submitting my app
Oh noes, anything BUT THAT! D: That would be a total trimmer for newbie artists in there!
It took me three days before I had the first legitimate sale and that was only because no one was actually noticing I had a sale going on thanks to all of the YCHAs and in-submission raffle adverts. It was literally pushed away out of sight and mind for not only my watchers, but those who might pass by it while browsing. My concerns rest at that however. Otherwise, I'm rather happy with this recent decision.
I know it's tough to get people's attention, but I can only suggest things that would form a closer bond with your watchers. Stream events, good PR, watcher-participation related stuff, etc. Hopefully this helps, and an admin is free to correct me on the issue. ^_^
Other concerns: What if it is a reminder for an auction that is help off site (furbuy)? Only one posted to even make post of it, ever. I currently have one of those, and I posted it up once in a journal and once in a submission. I would like to know if I need to take one of them down or if one of each is perfectly ok. It is a reminder ad, however it has it's own unique art. Since no bids are being made under it, what would I do?
How are you guys going to handle this (FA support staff) if these still keep popping up? I know you will catch some of them on your own, but are users going to be able to report this? If that is the case I would imagine it would greatly slow down response times to trouble tickets. Initially at least while everyone adjusts to this at least.
The other concern is that this is going to make high traffic times for users even busier. Since everyone will save up to post at these times I would suspect. (5pm-9pm) Go slow all day then suddenly a great heap of things to slow things down possibly. I'm not sure if this would really happen, but FA does seem to slow during these times as is. (Haven't gotten to see for sure via beta however yet if it does only a short while into it)
What about things like stream banners, advertising that you are streaming? I post those once every time I stream. So it is technically posting the same art over and over. Though I remove it when I am done each time. This is not that different from visual reminders of auctions, but it can get reposted daily from me alone as well as other artists. I don't want my stream banners becoming a problem... or having to make a new banner every time. Because if I had to do "new art" each time, that would greatly affect how much I stream by taking away time from my stream making a banner. The re-use banner also becomes recognizable as an image to let you know an artist you like is streaming. Until a feature that shows when people are online is implemented at some point, or something of that type. I don't know what I would do otherwise.
People can still advertise raffles, it just cannot be a requirement anymore. YCH stuff can still be posted and it's not exactly hard to scope that out (Search function).
I fail to see how encouraging spam is a healthy way to get your name out.
if you didn't like the down pour of ych auctions in your recent subm. sections.... then why didnt you just UNWATCH the watcher?
if you say cause there are times they show the good art from it.... or something along the lines of it..
don't you come to the realization its for the purpose of advetising, and there IS a select all, then you individually un select the stuff you want to see?
im mean come on....
you do know how to UNWATCH someone who spams ych auctions...right?
[im not trying to be a bitch here so im sorry if you feel offended, but your one of the first comments of comments with the similar concept of what im commenting about....
but seriously though to stop ych, all ppl had to do was delete them...
and i won't respond to any of your comments after this, just trying to put up a public point so please don't be mad :c]
But again, you have your own opinion, and I have mine.
"Though keep comments like these to yourself or post your own opinion elsewhere. "
yea sorry i have every right to post. so id rather keep posting on my own.
i was being sarcastic and rude when i said that and i did say i choose your comment over others only because it was there
i was not trying to make any one else's opinion more valid than any other.
how you perceive what i say is your own interpretation of your argument and not my fault if you find bias/prejudice/ect. so what ever you found to get mad over something silly. just honestly don't, you have much better things to worry about in life than some user 'trying to make a more vaild point across' by trying to again sound more 'valid'.
seriously go hug a loved one then worrying about to comment about my rude mess. and just ignore me simple as that c:
I do get your point; the only real way to stop YCH's popularity is to stop supporting it. But unfortunately people have taken a rather strong liking to the methods for the practice to vanish.
As a general suggestion, when partaking in a public discussion, it is very helpful to maintain proper punctuation as though you were writing an article for a newspaper. Smilies of course are fully allowed to break the intensity of srs-bzns internet discussion. ;)
I was talking about the submissions page that a user watches. so excuse me for not being... more specific and direct.
There are some people who do support it who watch YCH's and then there are some that just don't watch them, some people make two accounts, one is their main account, the other is their YCH here downpour account meant for advertising. I understand it can't be helped, but just complaining about it and having basic rights on the website taken away further, limiting the site to soon become less of an artist merchant playground to almost soon enough a image-only voyeurism and tourism induced website. Soon some people will have to rely on using other website to advertise for free, then use this as their personal doodle-whatever for whatever they preferably prefer. Plus i do understand that as a customer of FA, agreeing to its Terms, rules and guidelines, we are entitled to nothing else but what they say they are going to give us.... but if this is really meant for the community, shouldn't the community decide how to appropriately challenge the problems, make proper suggestions, and have FA actually give trials and attempts at those suggestions instead of the " this is my sandbox, my rule, don't like it your welcomed to leave".
Using insufficient grammar, & misspellings is not uncommon on the internet.
it is actually quite common to find fragments, misspellings, slang, and other verbal forms of communication that just lacks entirely and leads to communication not being understood properly. for example if you came across some half-English speaking and writing folk, that just can only type the way they speak-then well you are going to get what they are serving you.
[fragment here->]and not even just half English. Some rednecks that i know very personally well literally type the way they speak.
i am actually a grammar Nazi myself, but i decided not to care and just type the way i felt like typing when i just came across the comment(s) on here.
most of the younger generation below me type with more abbreviated and more 'smiley' induced language. so not trying to get your hopes down but trust me you are going to see A LOT on this page alone.... and why did you not comment on others here on this page that also 'misspoke' and are not neither politically correct--not even grammatically correct for that matter?
this is a public discussion.
with a mass gender/race/ethnicity filled common place for other to gather.
therefore, if i type the way i speak and that how i believed the correct way to type, then you would be basically trying to put across the fact that i am more ignorant of the appropriate way of speaking of how YOU deem the appropriate internet mannerisms are... and so far i haven't seen the national MLA standard for writing an opinion appropriately.
by the way, i am not writing an article for a newspaper, this is a formal announcement with an informal discussion below it. Most of the comments above and below mine if they do not have at least one smiley, you are basically calling them all grammatically ignorant to your point.
i honestly could go on and on about indirectly talking about insulting one's intelligence over the internet by basically telling them ' to speak proper and to seem smarter, especially on a large public discussion such as this.'
I do hope my fragments didn't discourage you in my comment here, and not made my comment seems more or less valid than yours of course.
and here is the smileys section for you :
I simply was saying it's a lot easier to get one's point across when you make a post clear and legible. I type a lot more casually when speaking to someone over a messenger, but I take my time on forums so that my point is exceptionally clear and my post is easy to read quickly. ^_^; Smileys are okay in moderation, they can help break the monotony and communicate emotion in a potentially clear manner.
Just because it's becoming less common for someone to take the effort to type correctly in a public venue doesn't mean that everyone should just give up and type without care and legibility. That's all. :3
i understand you point, but some people just are just to apathetic to even do that.
seriously target every single comment on here with a similar phrase that you commented on mine with and you will see an array of results whether they will comment back with a reasonable humble comment or go batshit crazy on you for insulting them, which is how i took it as well.
i proved to show i can type decently and be obnoxious about it, but honestly not everyone really cares, especially when this is an informal discussion board:/
but i get what your saying though.
But let them have it, because it harms their eyes to see it. :C
Since it's on my mind for my own purposes; Do these rules also apply to "I'm taking commission" reminders? It's inevitable for some - like myself - to have to repeatedly get the word out for anyone to notice.
As a followup, can people no longer post journals promoting artists who are taking commissions? Cause that's a thing that also happens, but in my experience only friends usually promote, making it more of an isolated thing, and sometimes happens when the commissioner is in dire need of money.
Doesn't really say anything else...?
... like me.
Q: Does this mean I can't advertise in journals?
A: You can advertise for auctions or YCH in journals as much as you want. You can even post new submissions and remind people in the descriptions. You can not repost the same image or a modified version of said image.
Though, I'm not an admin, this is merely my interpretation of the spirit of these anti-spam rules. I hope it helps, though. ^_^
here's very easy way you can limit raffles and sort out raffles, fix your FA system a little bit. it's simple for you I hope.
Raffles:
Locate and delete $1111 Raffles/$ Raffles/PS4/X1 Raffles. (Warn that User to stop posting those Raffles)
Sort out Raffles that are legal.
System:
Tweak Page Loading Process to speed up a bit
Tweak Upload Image Process by at least three times just enough to speed up the submitting processing.
Increase more Security Features for FA
Comments System:
Submission Comments Disabled/Enabled should be enabled for users to decide which submissions's comments can be disabled.
Journal Comments Disabled/Enabled for Journals should be enabled to disable comments of a Owner's Journal Entries by Owner.
Users System:
User Comments Disabled/Enabled can be enabled for Users to disable their Comments on their Comments Page or to prevent a user from commenting on their page. I know it's part of block feature, but what if you could create an system that's just for user comments only.
and so forth etc etc. I actually don't know how helpful this will be in near future. but I hope it helps FA in long run.
"ANY NEW SUBMISSIONS OR JOURNALS created after this posting (Nov 21 @ 6:00PM EST, 11:00PM EST) will be removed if found."
Oh wow, FA will sure be boring now that -any- new submission and journal will be removed. :3
Oh and no more raffle spam? Better remove all the watchers krispup bough his way to. x3
Going to be nice without 50 of the same journal raffles in the notification area every day now.
To those who whine about artists not gaining enough exposure because of this: Won't change much.. Your watchers will probably be kind and supportive enough to spread the word anyway. And if not, you can simply take advantage of one of the loopholes to deal with it.
And to those who whine about adblock cockblocking their wallets: Don't you think there's thousands of people that still doesn't use it? The ones who do use it are obviously not interested in finding artists like that. Or just doesn't find all those flashy, ugly epilepsy-inducing banners flattering.
Are you going to fix the horrible site lag that several people has graciously donated their hardware and/or money towards?
I... can't tell if you're upset by the changes or not? As a note, sarcasm is not the most productive way to go about expressing that. ^_^;; Yes, there is still some odd wording in the journal, but it's pretty clear what's trying to be said. XD
Yeah, I agree that the smaller artists will get approximately the same level of pimping as long as they take the time to be good people and treat their watchers with pleasantness.
Heh, I also agree with the adblock bit. It's like, guys, if someone is looking for someone new to commission, they're going to turn off their adblock and look around! I leave mine off because I occasionally see a neat banner for something cute. I went and read all of Precocious for example. Though I do wish FA would give the option to block blatantly sexual banners specifically.
As far as the lag, trust that they are working on it. Such issues are much harder to fix than just installing a new server. It doesn't help when people delete and repost the same YCH 20 times a day. ;)
"BUT WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE MONEY FROM THEM QQ"
How about, you know, uh, actually attracting fans through hard work and talent rather than 'I'LL GIVE YOU FREE SHIT'.
"BUT THEIR LIFELINE"
If you're relying on making anthro art as a JOB, you're a moron.
I don't give away free shit though. I don't have the time/can't afford to. Because this is my job.
I can definitely agree with the first half though. I want artists to be personable and cheerful, not generate endless sob stories about trying to pay bills. ^_^;; That type of thing typically causes me to instantly unwatch someone. It's okay to have it sustain you, but don't whine when business is slow please. :O
Personally in the grand scheme of things YCH is a perfectly viable source of on the side income, and for fun, and if you make a living out of it sure great for you! Sob stories do nothing for me either, neither does complaining on low income as YCH is not a long term viable sole career choice for any professional artist (I'm talking 4+ years here, I feel like YCH is a bubble in some regards). Personally I've never had to do it in my life for my rent, or anything important cause I've sustained through clientele word of mouth and commercial rates/contract work outside FA.
Doesn't really add much to the conversation, but adding to your points xD
You're probably right on the YCH stuff. I've also seen a lot of people switch from YCH auctions to just YCH templates. Also, good on you for keeping a good client relationship with people. I bet you have a fairly high quality in the people that follow you. :3
Secondly, I do work very hard. But commissions don't just roll in because of two reasons:
People nuke their journals or just don't click on "COMMISSIONS OPEN!" journals
People don't see the original add because now we can only post one.
I'd say its a clear 50/50 split between watchers who buy my art and new customers buying it; that's very important statistically that I be able to post ads to bring in those new customers, or else I wouldn't be able to pay my rent or bills.
So unless you are being directly affected and understand everyone's situation on here, you should probably stop the name calling and judging of others and understand that its nowhere near as easy as 'working hard and producing good work'. This is a business whether you think so or not; in the real world, working hard doesn't always mean success as sad as that is.
That's why we have welfare. I never said this was stupid as a side-hobby, but making it your main source of income is just idiotic.
"People don't see the original ad because now we can only post one."
So... now there's LESS of a chance that people will Nuke their entire Journal stack from no longer seeing multiple 'BUY SOMETHING PLS' Journals?
Well, now FA needs a report button! Both on journals and submissions. Because now there are multiply more things to report...
^This.
There are much less obnoxious ways to do these things, and people should be sharing because they genuinely like/respect the work of the artist, not simply because they want to get 'free everything ever!'
I immediately thought of a loophole to this. Journal pimping may not be used as a Requirement to enter. But people can still use it as an incentive, for instance;
"To enter this raffle please comment
To have a second entry please link/repost in a journal"
Might I suggest an addition to the ruling
* "Spam to Win" - Journals and submissions which require users to repost or link to the raffle/contest in order to enter (or to gain additional entries ) are NO LONGER PERMITTED.
Now exxcuse me, I've got a Draykhole to abuse.
That's one of the problems with a lot of the rules on FA is that people easilly misinterpret things and get punished for it.
People's reading comphrension sucks.
Also why I'm still answering questions and trying to help after I got fired :P
That's an observation.
"Journals and submissions which require users to repost or link to the raffle/contest in order to enter are NO LONGER PERMITTED."
Yet one guy thought he couldn't post artwork he commissioned if an artist submitted it.
Someone else thought that the "Will remove all journals/subs that fall under this" applied to all submissions and was bummed about his music being deleted.
Also I think those two know each other so he was being a little more 'loose' when talking to him. :P
This^
before when YCH were still okay, they allowed me a chance of getting come customers in, not watchers...
whats the point of a broke art whore 'watching you' if they don't have the funds to support you?
ych did help bring some of the ppl that wanted to have watchers yea sure, but also help promote their business, now with journal, which was the other version of advertising for free by using word of mouth, has no been obliterated as well, just because of a large raffle getting far beyond out of hand.
what special little rights now are going to be taken away due to someone's little thing going from innocent to sinfully to far in the realm of fa? (this is not a real question to be answered, just some food for thought)
but seriously though fa needs to bump up at least another version of where when an artist is holding something like a raffle, free art for repost, ych auctions,, adoptbles and all of that shit, there should be a separate section privately only to be seen by the artist themselves that feeds to their watchers for the intent and purposes of 'free advertising', it can show exactly whats going on and is completely seperated from the rest of the art that is being posted up.
somewhat like a small announcements from users to users, on the side for the people interested in buying an adoptable, evolvable, evolutionalble, ych, free art, ect...
i really hope someone steps up to the plate for the community and offer their services to help code-up and update a new feature for the smaller unpopular furs that wasn't to advertise but cannot afford it.
a mini announcements extra would prob really help us out ://
[btw, anyone else who responds to this with an attitude to in their mind try to defend reasons behind this new rule in effect... i get it...and i honestly don't care about your opinion if you choose to be rude to me about it and i will ignore your post, but i will respond to your post if it comes across and shows a decent point in any form away to what i'm suggesting for fa that has some decent courtesy and manners including and up to, a fa member, or anyone else for that matter.
i'm not trying to pick a fight, and i'm not picking a side on this matter.
i am unhappy with the new ruling, but hey whats good for the goose is good for the gander i guess and this new ruling will straighten out a lot of furs trying to 'achieve good watcher numbers' over better consumer-demand...
have a good day btw, and hope this works out well in the end :/]
just a suggestion.
and believe me, just like the saying goes, you can feed a horse to water, but you most certainly cannot make it drink c:
~?~I'm confused here. Isn't the point of a YCH to bid on a specific image? If you upload a completely different drawing to advertise/remind people of your YCH, wouldn't that be false advertising?
"Hey, reminder to bid on this image above! But it actually looks like this since FA needs me to upload a unique image."
Or am I missing the point completely, and you want us to submit new art that is not at all related to a YCH (ie. personal art / other commissions) and post a reminder link in the description?
While you're at it, can we put [size=200] codes in descriptions too?
People not reading the descriptions is why I asked if they were going to enable Font Size codes in the description to try and bring some attention to the link.
I have a better idea!
Say people don't like reading descriptions, why don't we put the reminder in the image itself as a watermark? XD
http://i40.tinypic.com/2h2l28m.jpg
I don't want to have to shut down the group I just made to help artists already :/
Music... wasn't touched on this journal?
That removal thing is only applying to items that violate the two rules specifically invoked in the journal, specifically SPAM TO WIN and OMGYCH. Not all submissions.
I talk about my friends when they are in trouble or open for commisions.. or both
Signal boosts are not covered under this rule, as far as I've seen. That is to say, you can still do it.
This rule covers banning CONTESTS WHERE YOU MUST POST A JOURNAL TO ENTER.
> Journals and submissions which require OR directly encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions are PROHIBITED.
So art exchanges and other collaborative art projects, which are organized in a journal and where you must draw art and submit it in order to participate, are prohibited -- these are "journals ... which require ... other users to create additional ... submissions." I don't see any wiggle room in the language here.
And "please help my friend, who needs money/food/a place to stay" journals, where they request that you spread the word, are also prohibited -- these are "journals ... which ... encourage other users to create additional journals." Again, it seems pretty much cut and dried.
Hold an art exchange, or ask people to spread the word that your friend needs help, and you're banned from FA. That's what this policy change means, among other things. Is it worth doing that, just to prevent some annoyance, especially when a bit more care could have been taken with the wording to avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater?
Now, reasonably, I don't think that these cases are what the policy change was truly meant to prohibit, and I doubt anyone will ever be banned for doing either of these things (and shame on FA if that ever happens), but the "letter of the law" states that they're prohibited, no matter what the "spirit of the law" is. This language needs to be clarified.
I would keep it to maybe a weekly report, and emergency signal boosts, to cut down on spam, but as you are not required as part of a contest to post them... you're good.
(Advice void if contradicted by admins)
I'm fairly certain what you're doing is encouraged. It's not done for personal gains / entry into contests. It's done of your own free will to support growing artists. Nothing was ever stated that artist pimping was not allowed. The issue at hand is specifically to stop 'forced reposts' for entry into contests. ^_^
I for one would love to be able to follow someone's artwork but NOT their journals. I don't want to sound mean or like I don't care.... but there are many people whose art I love to see but don't really care about their personal life/updates. It's very hard to catch the journals of close friends I DO want to keep in closer contact with in amongst all those journals! And it'd be really easy to continue to watch someone's art but turn off journal notifications for them if they seem to be spammy about bunches of raffles.
It's been in the works for a while.
My optimism on that is slipping.
In general I think it's better to give people the tools to police their own little space instead of making lots of confusing rules and trying to enforce them fairly. Keeps people happier too!
Exactly...
It could also filter the content and titles (separately however so e.g. one could disable all journals with 'raffle' in their titles, but still see journals with word 'raffle' in the content if it's not included in the title, or could see all journals with 'hospital' in the title if it's not included in its content but couldn't see journals with 'hospital' in their content), for words and phrases (so e.g. I won't see journals like "I got sick" in content but Ill see "this is sick" ones.
No, seriously.
I DO have a roleplay that I want to turn into a comic, though. I just... would need people to donate regularly to even be able to do it.
Need to make my living somehow.
But like... I don't have a job beyond commissions. I can't spend hours and hours and hours on a comic that might not bring in any revenue from donations. Y'know what I mean? D:
Check Fender's posts this thread for confirmation, but there's nothing in the rules, including the new one, from you posting this.
It comes down to *requiring* people to post to enter.
Although I do have a question myself...
And question? .3.
The problem is people are reading that as being more generalized than it is.
Is it a raffle or a contest? Does it require people to repost/link to in order to enter? If yes to both, then it's not allowed. Otherwise... post away.
*shrug*
And YES. I did read that wrong. Aha. My bad. Ffff. I feel like such a derp. Whoops.
It happens, and it will fade without notice and often without comment, as long as you make the appropriate... other noises.
Denying you farted in the elevator as opposed to going "Whoops excuse me" just makes it worse xD
Ahgad. I can't. xD
...and sometimes I have a bad gas problem so all I can think of are farts. Seriously, my office makes me fart a lot for some reason...
Don't eat too much fiber. xD That might be what is doing it to you.
because i am seeing many are kind of sharing the journal link.
BUT, the nuke button is lovely.
Or what you can do, is click "Select All", un-check the ones you want to read, remove the checked ones.
Spam isn't that big of a deal.
It's kind of a shame this had to happen though because I liked seeing the posts to show people were really eager to sell their work, even the YCH, and especially the "Now Streaming" links.... I suppose they could get by with just posting the sketch they're working on... but honestly, if you don't like seeing it, filtering works too...
Just my opinion personally, ignore it if it upsets you.
It's looks like this but the text changes.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12092179/
I do understand if it's not allowed for main gallery postings but if I just post them to scraps so only people joining in on the rounds get the reminders?
We've hd over 100 people join the past few months and I like giving them all a picture reminder a few times a month so they don't forget.
(usually it's the 2 week and 1 week notice pics and one that announces sign ups being open since a lot of people mass-nuke journals).
I do like announcing sign ups publicly though so more people have the chance to get in on the exchange. It's super fun.
i can fake it and use badges previously done by other people in the community as the reminder images. Since this group doesn't repost art in the first place. That might be cool, pick 3 or so to post with the reminder on it.
I dunno if that would still be breaking the rules. I like the big "YOU GOT 2 WEEKS GUYS" letters with the image so people see it in their inbox and go "oh shit yea I gotta do that" instead of ignoring just another badge in their inbox.
Then just edit and put in the BIG LARGE WORDS
If you get mad I do this ban Summercat (gotta be like a politician and make sure I can blame others). <.< >.>
Filter System
That would be nice to sort and what not.
Including gallery/favorite folders.
Want to buy more organization abilities.
1. Unwatch people that tend to "spam". If you like their art, or they are a friend, and they are bugging you, but you're tire of their spamming, either unwatch them or suck it up.
2. Select all journals for deletion, skim through the journals, and check off the ones you don't want deleted. Then, delete the ones selected, go back and read the ones you left. I do this every day on FA. When I saw all of the $1111 raffle journals, the thought, "OMG THIS IS SO FUCKING ANNOYING... THEY NEED TO PUT AN END TO THIS..." ever crossed my mind. LIBERTIES, folks. If someone wants to post a journal linking to a raffle, or someone wants to post a journal about how their day went, or someone wants to post a journal about what kind of commissions they opened, LET THEM. ANY of that could be spam to anyone...
AND NEWS FLASH, when you watch someone, you are SUBSCRIBING to them. It's like going to Walmart.com and subscribing to their email list for deals, promotions, and so forth. Sometimes businesses advertise for other businesses/affiliates.
People here, like myself, use this site and various other sites to gain a little extra money AND bring art into the lives of those that want it, and if we get our liberties taken away because some people were annoyed by journals from people THEY SUBSCRIBED TO... or because FA is going /too slow/... or what have you, we are going to go elsewhere.
Which I'm sure that the people that are for this new rule will not care about the above. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, pat me on the back, or what-have-you... I am just stating my opinion as I have one.
Hey, here's an idea... seeing that so many people are saying YESSS!!! to this journal, and so many people are saying, NOOO!!! to this journal, you should delete their comments for spamming the journal!
But you say, oh... well.... it's not just one person making the same comment over and over and over and over again... Okay, well, most everyone knows that you only link to raffles... once. So, it's SEVERAL artists/users on this site that post ONCE at a time, and it's treated as spam. If ONE PERSON posted 10 journals in a row in the same day with the same content... Sure, that's spam.
Otherwise, as I said above, UNSUBSCRIBE. Don't take peoples' liberties away just because you don't want to see something they post.
Another example: when you go on a site to enter into a sweepstake, it is sometimes REQUIRED that you like them on facebook, twitter, whatever... because WHY? So, OTHER PEOPLE can see that there is a sweepstakes going on, and hey... they may want to join, too! And then they like the page, and it goes on and on, and it's for the good of the company!
But hey, let's all go on facebook and have them put up a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY FOR SHARING SWEEPSTAKES AND ADVERTISING FOR COMPANIES WHEN THEY REQUIRE YOU TO DO SO.
I have posted raffles myself, because holy fuck I would like a shot at getting free art/money, too, AND I'd like to spread the word to anyone else in want/need that wants a shot.
And everyone saying, use other sites, use tags, buy a banner, etc... Um, yes, we are all aware of those options. Those options are great, and we use them when we can, but using promotions and sweepstakes/raffles as a way to gain more attention /was/ also a very suitable way of generating a bigger fan-base as well.
So, I'm sorry to all of those people that enjoyed coming on here to find little gems in their journals about a chance to win free treats... and I'm sorry to those that had the chance to gain a lot of exposure through raffles... but thank god no one has to actually /read/ through journals and and delete that pesky "spam" that does not affect them... and thank god they don't have to unwatch their friend who "spams" a lot because that would be awkward... and thank god they don't have to unwatch a great artist that just happened to join a raffle because guhhh I really like their art.
I normally don't comment on these announcements (though I do read them, as I am a law-abiding citizen huehuehue), but this just generally pisses me off. I don't like my options being taken from me, and yes, to all of those reading this that are thinking "THEN GO ELSEWHERE".
I can, and I will if liberties keep being taken away.
I know some of you have said and are thinking, "Calm down, it's not that big of a deal..." but it is to some people... and like most GREAT COMMUNITIES, if they start taking away the small things, it's only a matter of time before they start taking away more small things... and big things... and so forth.
Anyhow, FA knows what's best for FA, so I'm going to follow along with the rules. However, that does not mean that I have to agree with it, and I have said my words.
Though I do agree getting 30-40 "$1,000 givaway" journals in my journal box is annoying.... I simply just deleted them *shrugs*
It honestly didn't bother me. If people had gone to my page and posted a link saying "Oh look a big giveaway here's the link" I would count that as spam.
I honestly don't think it counts as spam if a person only posts it once.
Personally, I think FA went too far with this one.
I do agree on that! There was no rule in the first place that said no non-art-related raffles, so technically, it was okay... but it /doesn't/ make sense regarding the purpose of this site... which is art. So, I agree that non-art-related raffles (such as the $1111 and PS4) are very much misplaced on this site, as it is an art site.
i love your points on this matter c:
- already stablished artists
- non-artists
- people whining about how they failed to get anything in raffles on their particular case
The notion of "just go elsewhere" is the attitude that breaks apart communities. You want your users to be happy and conciliate people, not making something that gets a lot of people pissed off about and creates a lot of conflict in the community.
Because if someone is going to be auctioning off something, they won't be wanting to draw it 3 different times just to show you that it's being auctioned.
If fA had something similar to Deviantart groups, then the auction spamming problem wouldn't even BE a problem.
It would just be nice to have something like that in general because most people on this site have good art but NEVER get noticed because no one is online when they post.
Thank you, I was simply speaking my mind xD
Exact to the point of a needle.
FA needs to shape up and realize they are competing with deviantart.
And to compete you have to be the same or better than your opponent.
They seriously NEED a better way to get things out there.
Because like you said the ways to find artists here SUCK.
Deviantart allows me to update a old image without actually removing and reposting where people can see it.
Where as the only place here on fur-affinity to see pictures is if you are watching them, or find them randomly on the front page. And personally I think that's wrong. This is an art site with over thousands online. It's a huge community, and FA should have done something about that sooner if they didn't want the 'spam'.
i do agree with what you mean.
groups and folders would calm the population of this site a lot
*sigh* Unfortunately though, FA staff won't change the site just because a few FA members are asking for change...
therefore coding things doesn't seem to be top priority :c
All they have to do is put up a journal saying they are looking for someone to volunteer.
vs
"I'm a person who believes in sharing up-and-coming artists in the community, perhaps you would like to see this artist's works?"
The latter of course being entirely without reward because hey, they believe in sharing! :O ... It's nice to be like the second person. :3
Someone likes to make their journals SEMI important?
I don't want to spam my friends with useless things when I sometimes use journals to alert them if something should arise.
Many of my friends I don't have prior means of communication with and there's far too many to just note should something arise.
It's not about "greed" or whatever. It's just how I do things because to me, FA is more than a place to post my art. It's a means of contact.
But yeah, I was just making a joke of the two ways to go about sharing a journal that promotes an artist. :) Done in moderation, I'm sure you could occasionally share an artist you follow and respect without upsetting anyone in your watch list. It just becomes an issue when someone does nothing but pimp other artists. I personally end up unwatching people like that because yeah, useful as personal contact. ^_^;
The reason why they only changed the rules though is because it was the easiest thing to fix.
Lazy.
*shakes head in dissaproval*
Everyone who is happy to see these changes can make excuses and come up with reasons why people shouldn't do that, or they should do this instead. Locking everyone into the same little box when there's a plethora of people on this site and even more art to go along with it...it's a struggle sometimes, and not everyone has the same luck and success with the same things. It's a shame that people can't seem to comprehend that. It's just one more rule that will hurt some people in the long run. And it's one more step towards making things infinitely more difficult for some of us 'lesser' artists on here. Marketing is marketing and it can be done different ways. But let's just cut options, shall we. I'll just pull $20 out of thin air for a banner? Not possible. Let's just get to the nitty gritty, no more talk, no more advertising unless if you can afford a banner, no more journals, no more pimping, no more posting about streaming. Seems like the only way to make the majority of the people who are for these rules happy.
I'm so sick of this "Buy ad space" mind set. Not all of us have the spare cash to just toss around for Ad space that 85% of the user base isn't even going to see.
It's even more of a piss-off that the majority of people going "YAAAAY" aren't even artists, so they don't give a shit about the repercussions of these rules.
This reminds me of politicians making laws on things and subjects they don't have experience with and are listening to only a part of the general public instead of the real experts and asking 'what can we do that would help with this issue'. >.>,,
And yes, as for that... people who are cheering it on dont understand how much it harms us!
I always got mixed reviews on how much Ads actually worked, but I heard more bad than good, and this one is another bad experience to chalk up. I really feel they're detrimentally hurting the portion of their user base who are artists.
It's stressful because it's the largest community for artists to find work but they are consistently removing our avenues to gain exposure to that community.
I personally feel that there are much better methods that the community can use to raise artist awareness than by dangling free stuff in front of them like bait. ^_^; It's a rather tasteless approach despite being 'easy'. Ideally, a positive customer experience combined with polished appealing artwork should be what drives others to spread someone's artwork. If things aren't working out that way, consider asking watchers how you can improve and being open to the feedback.
As far as advertising goes, I think most people could drum up a few sketches to get the meager $20 for a banner. They really do work, despite so many people saying 'adblock adblock adblock'. Those that are actually looking for gear/artists/conventions will leave the ads unblocked because they are relevant.
Also, no one ever said pimping was not allowed. This rule change ONLY affects 'spam to win' contests, aka contests that require the entrant to repost the contest on their page. Fans are more than welcome to, and are in fact encouraged, to pimp artists that have treated them well, whose art they like, etc. ^__^
HA on sketches. I can't even get people on offering cheap things like $5 ACEOs. Much less I can't even make a banner and I don't know of someone who can. And the problems with getting the banner...you get forgotten, you have to keep emailing the staff about it, sometimes it's not up when it's supposed to be....all this crap...stupid stupid crap.
And you really only get pimped if people want to pimp you, and much of the time....they don't. There's also no guarantee it'll work. It hasn't worked for me in the past. It all goes back to fitting people into the same old box. I'm just another no-name worthless artist...and while I don't care for myself because....I have just stopped caring (which happens when you try cramming so much detail and effort into a piece to have it pretty much ignored), I am concerned for others. I'm not thinking about myself here. I could careless about journal 'spam'.....there's tons of people who post journals about wishlists around this time of year and of course the con memes.
Hmm, have you considered trying to figure out why they don't jump at such content? Maybe they don't know what an ACEO is (don't underestimate people's ignorance) or maybe you have oversaturated your watchers with commissions. Perhaps the style is simply not one that people are in the mood to commission, or perhaps the message is simply not clear enough to them amidst other noise they have in their inboxes. Take the time and ask them what's up, and if need be, take some personal time to improve on the points of failure so that you can better accomplish your goals.
As for banners, I know I've had my share of troubles in the past, but they have been really trying hard to improve on that. Stuff happens sometimes, but I haven't seen any broken banner images in several months. They're aware of lax support on such things and I'm certain they would like to do better.
As for getting people to pimp you, if your current watchers aren't willing to do it, and you've been extremely personable with these people, I'll offer the suggestion I've given a few others. Find someone random out there with a moderate set of watchers, and offer them some free art. The only condition is that they post it to their gallery when it is done. Give them a fantastic experience by working with them to get them something they are happy with. If they are taken aback by the awesomeness, they will not only post the image, but possibly do even more to show their appreciation, ranging from a pimping journal to tips. And you've now penetrated into an entirely new set of people making use of their watch list.
Be creative and don't be afraid to change the way you do things. I know it's really hard to get feedback from some groups of watchers, but keep at it, and stay positive. ^_^
Of course there's the chance I just suck. I list all my ACEOs as such, there is almost no reason for my own watchers to not know what they are. And even badges...I haven't gotten any hits online in ages and barely any sales period at this last Oklacon. Even when I was doing sketches for $1.50, there was only one taker. There is no more trying to stay positive for me. The more effort and time I put into something, the less people look at it. I'm not a digital artist, therefor I'm easily overlooked. And I've seen new comers who are absolutely amazing where a raffle could boost them so quickly. But it's funny that non artists and it seems a lot of artists who have over 3k of watchers are just thrilled about these rule changes. They already have a following, they don't need anything, or they're not and artist and they don't care.
You're still reducing everyone to the same tools...either you have money for an ad or you be an extrovert. Those seem to be the options. I don't talk, my marketing skills with talking are non existent even over the net where I tend to be far more loose. You don't really know me Tobias. When have I said more than maybe a few sentences about werewolf to you?
I did raffles because I can't build myself up, I am often afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing(or get turned down or something)...which will sometimes happen anyway because I can't freaking stand some of snobbish behavior I've been seeing from artists who have a good following. FA could have just put it up 'use filters or STFU' like they did did the 'deal with pony week, it's happening'. But no. At this rate, the way FA is hindering artists-and they are-I'd be more than happy if I could afford the watercolor set I need and just bail to do pet portraits. It's not what I really want to do, but....I could make a whole lot more and wouldn't have to watch FA do what it's doing. I really do hope they keep pushing things, show what they really think of artists. This is just one more thing in a long list of issues, really.
Perhaps these new changes will help push the community back to being more willing to share things with each other like in past years? I'm not sure. But I do know it's hard to be motivated when you don't get any feedback or response.
You say Nate... Are you referring to 'Nate Day'? I have a friend who religiously attends that person's streams and always shoots for a commission spot in them. From what I can tell, there's strong positive PR to be had in his case.
I dunno. Just don't be afraid to reach out to new people and to try new venues. :3 If you're polite and type in a clear and civil way, then I don't see approaching others as a potential negative. I know how stressful that can be, but even if you keep it strictly business, a kind attitude can be very welcome.
Sorry the new rules are stressful for ya. I wish I could offer more advice. ^_^;
I don't know if it will change anything. Some artists are just plain snobbish regarding the changes and it's shocking. Some are like 'Good! Don't be lazy!' ~Sighs~ They don't get it, and they seem to not care. They've got their thing, and that's all they care about.
Yep, yep. We go to visit Nate almost weekly, sometimes twice a week. He does have a good following and yeah, it could help me in terms of watches, but I just want to take pressure off of him and get a little pocket change for supplies. I swear if he tries to give me a huge amount of the sale because all he did was the sketch for this scratchboard, I'm going to be all 'Noooo'.
People are busy busy busy, especially artists, and I just.....some of them don't like risking collabs with people they don't know. Some just don't like doing collabs or if they are for it, they want digital artists. If something opens up because of the thing with Nate, that would be awesome, but.....not holding my breath. Once I get my queue down, I'm just going to fiddle with my own projects for a bit and hope they sell on their own.
But yes, do consider my suggestion of browsing FA and picking someone with a character you'd like to draw, contacting them, and asking if they'd like a small freebie in exchange for an upload with credit, and maybe a review of their experience. You can make someone really happy, and learn more about how an outsider views the experience. *smiles* Not everyone will say yes to free art, but those that do will typically be surprised and thankful.
Eh, I dunno. It might work, but who knows with my luck. I need some me time though.
Not sure which was worse at this point lmfao.
And if you're watching 3k people and don't have a spamming problem, you're either not watching artists, or you're doing it wrong lmfao. The entire reason this took effect is because people like me would wake up with 4-500 journals that are nothing but "YCH" "FREE RAFFLE" "PIMPING THIS JOURNAL!" So all the journals I actually cared about are lost in there.
I mean, I missed a friend who was sent to the hospital and needed surgery. I could have been there for her, but instead I never saw it because of nothing but spam posts.
Relying on FA for RL stuff is iffy, though journals seem to have less of a problem than submissions. But what happens when a shit ton of people go off to FC or AC? And all those memes for cons? That's different apparently.
Boomer
I also think that too many new artists are coming in and expecting to be able to use this site to fully support themselves. It's nice that they're so ambitious, but such expectations are unrealistic and unfair to everyone. Work hard and improve your talents and some day you'll be able to charge a price that will allow you to use it as your sole source of income, people. :X But until then, do it because you enjoy it. ^_^;;;
It wasn't with any thought of selling art or anything even close to that, Feeling alone with my animal ideas, I just wanted to meet others who shared my frame of mind about anthro creatures,
and a hope to find friends, a purely social impulse.
Here's something I just wrote to a friend about this:
"I was even thinking about that tonight, how wrapped up in Furry some of the
people at Furaffinity are, over a small change in the rules to stop people
from spamming raffles over the site. There was so much moaning and growling
over artists losing commissions and money, and this is our source of income,
etc.
I even posted to it that I think Furry has gotten too commercial these days,
something no one else wrote.. ;) I'd hope that someone would think for a
moment, before all of the scrapping over details of how to get paid for art,
and worrying about eentzy details of some site's policy, where were you?
Were you sitting at college studying hard and wanting to let loose with
something fun to do and found the poofies? Sitting at home alone with no
friends and these Furry people seemed like they were having way more fun?
What about being on the college's Apple PC after a radio shift, looking up
some of your interests?
The origin, what did it all mean then, and why did you get involved? I'd be
surprised if many Furs were thinking that they'd get involved to draw animal
art because people will pay money for it, or that they got in to flare up
over some site's raffle policy."
I agree with you, if you build talent, people will find you without all of the raffles and promotions, if you can blow away everyone else in your field.
Boomer
(Just asking if someone else knows about a bigger one happening before that one)
-though i do agree it is alot of spamage at times.
hymm... new ways to find new artists....... (other than other ppl's fav's.. which are more personal favs, than helping to find new artists)
It just bans contests that require people to post journals.
The whole point of this rule change is to stop gimmicks that would REQUIRE you to post a journal to participate in something. When you're assisting or promoting an artist on your own time, without them specifically requesting you to do so, that's just you doing your own thing to help someone out.
Just seeing a lot of different stories flailing about.
1) You can require people watch you. That doesn't spam anyone and wouldn't fall under the intent of the rule, nor does it the ltter.
2) It says require. As long as they gain /nothing extra/, I think Fender said it was okay.
If that's the case...doesn't really change the raffle system too much.
I think I'll hold a Christmas raffle, now. Just wanted to be sure. Life's too short to not offer free art! I'll just have to do so in accordance to some small changes. ^_^
...because I didn't let myself enter any auctions that required reposting >_>
So I'm waiting on that.
I mean, if someone WANTS to signal boostage it without any prompting to do so, then that's a different story.
I want it clearly stated where I can see it.
I love when friends share an artist of their own free will, but the main reason I don't watch many 'friends' on here (aside from their weird personal art lol) is that many like to enter those freebie raffles and it just clutters my inbox.
Good luck with your holiday special. Such things can still be fun. Remember, it's good PR that helps an artist gain true success. ^_~
The site DOES still accept and encourage the sharing of artists that someone likes, and community support for contests and promotions. This rule was simply to put an end to viral chain-letter style contests that have been becoming excessive in recent times. :)
If you want to share an artist you like, please do. Such journals are much more appreciated than the chain-letters because it's something you did of your own free will. ;3
I could see maybe another post in like a week or two, but obviously not the same image again or exact same journal, but in the same day, that seems really excessive.
or is this just for auctions? owo?
If you're talking about journals, it's not against the rules to advertise that way, but advertising every day may draw negative attention from your watchers.
I like these changes for the most part but as someone who does YCH's semi-regularly to help pay bills, this is killer.
I feel worse for the people who have less watchers than me.
Making someone only rely on their list of watchers when posting YCH's is brutal. But, oh well.
Allowing users the ability to maintain what they see on the site seems a lot more helpful to everyone than just hiding something that appears in excess.
Like, don't get me wrong, cutting down on spam IS a good thing, but I still feel like they could have come up with a solution that benefited more people.
I just can't see these changes sitting well. Like I know people who are truly sick of spam will be happy, but this'll be a big blow to people that make money off of these sort of auctions.
I really don't understand why re-posting an altered image once a day during the auction is against the rules but posting a journal to your watchers over and over again isn't...
It makes no sense. So, I don't get to "spam" my watchers anymore with image re-posts, but I can spam them with copy/pasted journals?
Yeah. Seems like the admins are about as good at making rules as they are a programming.
(not very)
Granted, you could always use an auction site but a) doesn't work well for many slot YCH auctions and b) in my experience people don't want to sign up for a new site to bid (inb4Jurann).
It's very frustrating that Admins are willing to shit on artists who use the site to make money...
I know what you're saying here, and I personally think that at least one reminder post should be allowed. But once a day can be very excessive when everyone is doing it. Also, there IS in fact a working search engine on this site. I would also suggest tagging your image properly; if more people did this, the search engine would be a lot more practical. XD Perhaps there are some people out there who search for YCH Auctions or something. When policies change, methods adapt. Don't preach the end of the world just yet, okay? :3
Hope that helps. ^_^
But jeeze kinda laughing at how many people are assuming totally random things out of this that weren't even mentioned!
I think it's great that FA is cutting down on the spam, but I do feel that they might accomplish this better through maybe utilizing a tagging system like Tumblr that would allow you to block content you do not wish to see, rather than flatout banning something simply because there's an excessive amount of it.
It's human nature to be lazy, and it's human nature to be greedy. :P Pretty much, do your part to help spread the word about lesser known artists in a community-driven way rather than through gimmicks. That's the best thing I can suggest. :D
Idk, but I do hope that they get a tagging system up in the future P:l
However, to repost the same image to target the front page... consider the logistics when you have everyone doing that. Think about how many YCH are being made these days. That's artwork that's already incomplete being posted multiple times to the front page and consider how incredibly difficult that makes general browsing of the site. I think that such a decision is actually the correct one, even if it sucks. Until those pieces can be placed into a separate section entirely, they are the equivalent of pollution in the main upload stream.
I'm sure they can find a proper solution, but for short term, it helps restore the function of FurAffinity, which is that of an art gallery for furry artwork where people can come and appreciate artwork. ;) It really wasn't built to sustain hundreds of people trying to make an income in a shitty economic recession. XD
(This remark was made without clicking into your gallery, but I hope it helps you in some way with your future endeavors. ^_^)
Thanks A lot.
because no one freaking reads journals.
Who knew it was that big of a freaking deal that people were trying to give away or make money
there are literally no other ways to promote your work on this site.
:/
Secondly no, this rule has not always been around. I don't know where you got that, but the rule regarding YCH was ONE reminder a day, providing you delete any previous reminders you posted before. Which I found was /more/ than reasonable and I have no idea why it needed to be changed.
I do allot of auctions on my adoptable account.
And now there's really no way to get the word out that isn't considered "spam",
They need to make Furaffinity groups. I'd be Flipping HAPPY to help code it.
Jesus, it would take a while to get it up and working but wouldn't it help the community be better, while helping out with commissions and letting the artists here get noticed better?
Seriously I honestly thing FA went a tad far on this one...
Do a comic.
Join a badge exchange (control+f "badge exchange", there's a group doing that).
There's some things around. Um. Look up Metamore Keep (or Metamoor? Something like that), it's a shared story universe. As is Benard Dove's Chakona Space. Do short story contests xD
Generally you'll find Sofurry is better for writing, if only out of reputation and habit.
Find other ways to advertise. Just not through spam. THere's a few suggestions to get more visibility out here.
Don't be afraid of adblocker, however. Those that want to buy commissions will leave adblock for FA turned off. They'll be able to find you if they catch your banner.
And raffles are still allowed, you simply cannot require that the entrant repost the journal.
The other way you can help expand your viewer base is to properly tag all images in your gallery! So many artists don't take the time to do this. If you have trouble with it because of language concerns, consider asking one of your watchers to help out with this. People DO use the search engine, and those same people will often gladly share something neat they run across.
If you're still not getting the traffic you would like, then I would suggest spending some time to improve on anatomy and technique overall. A good artist will always work hard at improving their skills. :3
Hope this is of some help to you. ^_^
It's important to be nice to the artists, but it's also important to be nice to the potential commissioners. Without them, these hard working people with money, the artists won't have reliable people to sell to. ^_~
not the comments though because drama
CAN I HUG THE PERSON THAT WROTE IT THOUGH
There are ways to promote your art and auctions but spamming and using up precious space on a site isn't one of them.
Because I seriously see no way at all besides having to go out of your way to draw another picture promoting something your trying to sell in the first place.
And the sketch thing is just an idea and not everybody likes to post their sketches and I understand. However, this YCH image re-post rule has been in effect for awhile; FurAffinity just hasn't enforced it until now because of a major journal that caused website issues and crashed browsers. As an artist who wants to conduct business for a living, having a backlog of art that you can post on slow days, off days, or anything in between is crucial. The more stuff you have out there with your name attached, the more people will see.
You expect people to buy a $20 freaking ad slot every time they want to post a YCH auction?
That's kind of bull. I have over 1,000 watchers and my main audience for YCH Auctions still comes mostly from people who see the submission on the front page. Rarely do my watchers buy those kinds of things from me. A LOT of other people out there are in the same boat.
You think people actually navigate the Forums? I've posted plenty of advertising there regarding YCH, sales, etc. I think I'd have better luck getting a buyer if I put a flyer in a fucking bottle and tossed it in the ocean.
I (used to) have an ad up 24/7 on this website. I did gain a lot of traffic from it, but for something as temporary as a YCH Auction that sometimes won't last more than 10 days, re-posting a reminder every or every other day after deleting the previous one is how artists get people's attention. A lot more people are viewing the front page at a time than are clicking on random adverts.
I really don't suggest the forums. They're terrible and the folks from there have a bad sense of what's a decent price.
I understand the appeal of YCHs. They've been good to me in the past, but if the new rules are going to make them more difficult to sell then maybe... do something that's not a YCH? Sketch runs. Full bodies. Do a huge group YCH that will have you set on funds for a while. These (not so) new rules are tough, but that's why its good to think outside the box, yeh?
I know all of that, but the list of "current YCH's" is brilliant and the first actual GOOD IDEA I've heard as an alternative.
In other words: do it!
I've had several friends (including myself) who have had luck with the FurAffinity Forums. It's another means of getting your name out there and getting more watchers who would turn into potential clients. Unfortunately you were one of the few who would actually delete their YCH reminder pieces before posting a new one, however one bad apple does spoil the whole bunch in this scenario.
Please don't assume that I don't.
All my income is from art from both commissions/adoptables on here and deviantart.
That doesn't make that much of a difference for people noticing auctions ending.
Tossing out a few ideas, tbh. I've been doing commission work as either my main source or supplemental income since 08'. Getting this stuff to fall together has been a bit of an uphill battle over the years, so I had to get a bit creative.
I know it is stated that you shouldn't repost the same image, does this mean that even if you remove the original image, you still can't repost it without some changes?
I don't know where you are.
But I have a particular set of skills.
Now, either you don't do that and we forget all of that,
or you choose to do so.
But I will find you.
And I. Will. Report. You.
get over yourself.
In short, yes, it means you absolutely cannot do that.
Either way, I'd rather have watchers because they like my art, not because of a raffle prize who will then jump ship later. :/
I, like many others, come here to see the art and interact with others. Seeing a flood of YCH reminders on the frontpage was irritating.
If FA was a government my libertarian friend would be ranting about mission creep.
FA isn't set up for financial transactions or advertising.
Not what they intended? Well tough luck, that's what it is, and largely why many people are even here in first place.
I don't know what point you were trying to make there, but you didn't really make one at all.
Seeing pretty art is all good and fun, but there are people behind the pretty pieces of art and they need to make money. It's true that this site isn't specifically for making money, but it's a good way for many people to get a start, at the very least.
A marketable skill is great and all, but there are places for auctions. This is not an auction website. If they insist on doing YCH and the like there's Furbid. FA was not created with the intention of being anybody's source of income - Sucks for people who tried to use it that way, but that's kind of how it pans out when you use something in a way other than it was intended.
And, I mean, if you don't like the spam from a user you're always welcome to unfollow them. Clicking the watch button isn't an unbreakable pact with the devil.
That being said, I do recognize that spam on the front page with these YCH reminders can be problematic, pushing finished art aside. But I feel that a tagging system that would allow users to block material they do not wish to see, something like the Tumblr blacklist method, might have been more beneficial for more users.
Using a tool for another purpose than it was intended for is not bad, no, but when that use starts to take over and spoil the tool for other people change should be instituted. Unfollow works, sure, but why should someone who's enjoying the site properly change their use of the site because someone else wants to use it for a purpose it wasn't made for?
In the end, I'm happy to see the site revert to it's original purpose. Again, this is not a place of business. You wanna advertise, go buy an ad. Don't spam.
Wow that's a self-entitled comment if I ever saw one. They haven't spoiled anything for you. Perhaps they made you click the delete button an extra time, but seriously if you don't enjoy that stuff in your inbox there is literally nothing stopping you from removing them from your watchlist. If anything, the front page spam is of FAR more of a concern than these reminders appearing in your inbox.
I mean, I don't like yiff but if I went around trying to police every person I watched for posting it, I'd only make a douchebag out of myself.
Long story short, the site wasn't designed for auctions and raffles. Tough cookies.
Long story short: you remind me of people who try to argue against gay relationships with the "buttholes weren't intended for intercourse" argument and I find that argument about as weighty as a feather.
Whatever dude. Whatever makes you feel better!
I think he was mainly pointing out that trying to bend a site to a use that it's not intended for is bound to be met with disaster and tighter rules like we are seeing. This is indeed a site meant as an art gallery, and not a site meant to sustain hundreds of people's livelihoods as I've said before.
Consider that FA's purpose is specifically to provide a relaxing way to enjoy art. Things like incomplete ghost-art (YCH) being posted hundreds of times a day by all members, can become exhausting to see. (For sake of arguments, consider mature art to already be filtered.) To those coming here to browse general furry art, and finding 50% of the uploads to be unrelated to such a use, that type of thing brings on a policy change to help guide the site back to its original purpose.
The fact that artists are able to use the features here to generate an income is a great thing. But when people abuse it in a way that denies other users the experience the site was designed to serve, that's why rules like this get created. Even if you don't agree with them, I hope you can at least understand that side of things.
As a more real world example, take for instance the movie theater. Many people at home LOVE to sit around and talk during a movie with their friends. Let's say those people suddenly get to guide the direction of the movie theater's rules. Suddenly the movie theater has changed into a place where everyone comes in in groups and sits around and talks while the movie plays, because that's the experience some people like to have. If you showed up at that movie theater again and suddenly found that it was no longer the same movie experience that the theater concept had been created for, that would be rather irritating. No, it's not a flawless example, but it's an example of a potential change of function on something that had a specific function when starting out. :3 Also it's getting late for me, heh.
I feel the site should should be going to better lengths to accommodate how its users are using the site, not trying to limit what people can and cannot do with it. People have already stated that a tagging system would take time to implement, and perhaps this is a somewhat necessary rule until that can come to be, but I still stand by that a tagging system would be far more beneficial for every user on the site, not just those sick of spam.
Also, a tagging system only works well when people bother to use it properly. There's a current keywords system and I see 20% (lol no clue, but a lot) of people spam random words in the keywords. They'll type whole sentences or put unrelated things in it. And then there's the people that don't put anything in their uploads at all. Not description, not key words, not even dropdown tags. When such systems become unreliable, they see disuse. |3
True, but in which case people who fail to tag could be warned and punished for spamming, not users that actually take the time and effort to properly tag things that should be tagged. I know that tagging seems to work very effectively on Tumblr for trigger words and, while some people do ignore it and not bother to tag, that doesn't mean it's not an effective means of limiting searches and hiding unwanted content.
Just like anything that requires more moderation to police would also require more responsible non-flaky detail-oriented level-headed admins/moderators in order to maintain. Sadly, such quality people are very rare. Those that would make the best candidates simply don't have the time available. Those with potential but the time available tend to have some sort of flaw ranging from potential abuse of power to simple carelessness. One potential solution is limited-scope moderators led and trained by a single admin that can keep proper tabs on actions taken. But that does require a certain underlying structure and it still requires moderate-quality volunteers. One cannot be too liberal or too conservative when applying rule moderations. And it's also a good idea to have someone take the time to properly communicate why their actions had moderation action taken against them or some people will just get pissy due to entitlement issues. XD
Simple things are never actually simple. >.>
I still hold a lot of concern in regards to these recent changes, though. They seem like weak fixes to bigger issues that could be resolved in better ways. I also hold a lot of concern because it just seems like if they're going to limit these sort of posts since they have appeared in excess, it could jeopardize many other forms of popular posts in the future.
I can agree that, at least with the timed event rule, they could potentially allow a single reminder ever per timed event, and maybe limit a user to three timed events (forcing a consolidation if excess is had). But for short term, things seem to have been getting really out of hand, and it will be interesting to see how the creative members of the community respond by trying possibly brand new things. I would personally love to see a return to users actually taking the time to spotlight an artist they personally like, making their own little mini-reviews.
And that's just it. If anything reaches a point of excess where it detracts from the central point of the site (like incomplete super-sketchy YCH auction spam or forced-repost contests) there will probably be a rule that gets made about things. It's up to the community to not abuse freedom for personal gain, and to not support abuse of such freedom. No, it's not gonna happen, cuz overall we're all quite selfish. XD Gah, my brain just shut down on me. I should probably take a break.
Thanks for discussing things in a fairly civil way. Always remember to look at these things objectively and see how both people from all sides of the discussion might feel, and why the action might be being taken. :3
Regardless, I hope that these sort of things are addressed and discussed more in the future, and that they might find even ground somewhere
FA is aware of how much artists rely on it for work, or they would not have implemented a commissions tab or allowed for artists to purchase adspace. This is a lazy solution to a problem they already had a solution for (one reminder a day, delete the previous first),
As for being an active artist- easy for you to say if you are a furry-only artist. Furry is a side job for me, I'm aiming at accepting a commission *monthly*... I don't have the time to complete several, unpaid works a month, let alone paid ones, while I'm working on my portfolio, and I'm not the only one,
I hate to say it, but perhaps you should try a different strategy to accomplish your goals. YCH auctions are hardly going to be the only thing you can utilize. I say this without browsing your gallery, as I've still got a few hundred posts to go through, but perhaps a pre-scheduled stream to advertise some sketches, and then arrange some sort of deal with the person you'd like to complete their sketch the most... I'm not sure I understand your goals though. o.o;
Sorry I can't be of more help.
As you say, this site has outgrown its original purpose and people are trying to force their financial needs on the site. It's unfortunate, but the end result is that people are trying to game the system as much as possible. ^_^; I hope you'll do your part to encourage positive behavior and to share the artists you like because you like them. Word of mouth is a very useful tool when used positively. XD
Second, so then would it be okay to make a journal advertizing a raffle, if the raffle doesn't require it?
Stop pretending journals are at all a viable means of notifying an user's watchers. Most journals are lost by most of a person's watches because there's almost half as much journals as there is art and yet no means of browsing past journals, you're locked to be able to see only the past 60 posted journals.
Just sayin'.
The advertising spam was eternal.
Side A) Small artists trying to get recognized and cant exactly afford an ad or who know better , they know alot of people use ad block, Hell, I use ad blocker, And don't have the ability to get advertisement any other way other then raffles and word of mouth(or in this case text)
But then there is side B;
B) Are annoyed by them merely because 1)they never win raffles, or 2) don't have the money or time to spend having a bidding war, so there fore get agitated there are so many chances for others to get art and not they.
But! There is another couple sides to this whole story, there are people like me, who don't care and just nuke journals willy nilly, and sometimes, rarely try to get into a raffle. Sometimes they are nice, i will admit, people like me who cant afford art can get into it. Then there are others who cant throw money at it and just win because they have more then some one else, making it so one can't hold a raffle makes it so the people in the fandom who have important things like bills and the like, will never be able to get art this way now.
Maybe I am just ranting, but I agree with Rex up in the comments, it would be a lot easier to to set up an interface that labels journals, alot like art, with tags that other users can un-check and not receive, subjects like, announcement, rants, heads up, ych reminders, Raffles, and others that i cant think of at the moment, and it would work a lot like the blacklist filter system, and it isn't that hard to be honest.
I just made a very simple tool for my company that keeps track of drivers and vehicles, primarily for maintence and bookkeeping purposes.
I've been working on it for two weeks and just today got basic functionality down. We're going to be tracking no more than 20 vehicles.
This site is much larger. Much much larger.
As well as. Um. Can't talk about that. Some remnant of professional ethics.
1. Suggest that you greenlist FurAffinity with your adblock program. You can specifically allow ads on certain sites that you trust and want to support.
2. Ask if there's a reason you are unhappy with the ads you see on FA, communicate that issue with the staff to possibly arrange a solution such as an option to block blatantly mature ads separately from clean ones.
The YCH advertising one seems a bit harsh, but I can understand why it is necessary. There are other ways to advertise after all.
That prompted things.
But I used to have 5k people in my watch list.
I would have seen ALL OF THEM fffff
I'm down to like 113 or so now.
I'm sick of seeing multiple alerts by one artist for one stream session.
And now I know why my friend thought everyone was being so unfair about her advertisements, thanks to this. *eyeroll* Rules change sometimes, it doesn't mean someone's being terrible. It means that a control was needed.
And don't worry, I didn't know what YCH meant for a while, either.
There are a few reasons why
1- artist use this as a way to get help if they are in dire need. and us furs are prone to help. and if we cant, we repost to find people who can
2- its a way to get more watchers. like myself, many people use art as a part time, if not full time, job. the more watchers, the better.
3- some people just like to give thins away. like the new money one that killed FA im sure. but dude, thats a lot of money. i dont know about yall, but that could change my life!
But alas, i am a stickler for the rules here on fa, and i shall follow them to a T
If you want to share an artist you like, by all means do so. If you want to share a cause you find important, by all means do so. If you want to make a contest that tells other people they have to repost about the contest in order to be eligible? That's where the line is drawn. None of that anymore. ^_^;
On a side note, keep in mind that this site was never intended to support the livelihoods of hundreds and hundreds of artists. It's nice to be able to make money, but FurAffinity is an art gallery first and foremost.
I hope that helps. :3
*Not an admin* XD
It's not a conspiracy, you can take the tinfoil hat off.
I sip the sweet drama-sauce and spew some insight where I spot confusion.
If you keep attacking people's ways of making money on this site you will keep loosing more artists to inkbunny and the other sites.
I don't see what editing an image to be a reminder does to "annoy" people and why it is against AUP now.
As a note, many people who search for 'free stuff' will typically use the search engine. For this reason, I don't typically suggest using words such as 'free' and 'request' in anything searchable unless you're fine attracting desperate greedy people. :P
YCH are not completed works, and in many cases don't even have a species identifier. They are furry stick-people. As the site is intended to be an art gallery, they do in fact clash with the general mission of the site. Thus excessive reposting of such things, which was happening collectively, was detracting from the intents of the overall system. It's unfortunate that this steps on people's desire to have a source of income, but as I've said to many of the earlier comments, the site is simply not structured well for such thing, and while people do their best to find shortcuts, these shortcuts interefere with general browsing making things harder on everyone. :3
While there are changes in the works, such changes take a lot of time to make sure they are perfect. If they are implemented haphazardly and have issues when it comes to being tweaked further, things are going to get way uglier around here. ^_^;;; So for now, at least understand where they are coming from even if you don't agree. They do have the artist in mind in the long run, but easy browsing for the commissioner is also important; these people work 40 hour jobs and don't have time to sift through endless mess on FA. XD
I think if FA keeps this up, they will lose a LOT of their artists who pay for ads and other users.
The YCH reminders is how lots of users get art of their OCs and a major profit for the artists.
It would be better if FA admins would just set a 1 reminder at a time limit, raffle boosting...yes that gets annoying but taking away the income of artists is a completely different thing.
I wanna hug you.
I think the whole idea of posting a journal to boost raffles is a good idea so long as it pertains to the artist gaining customers. However when it comes to things like Cash Raffles, PS4 raffles, or anything that has to do with gaining a material item that has NOTHING to do with FA or the Artwork posted on FA is un-need and should be the only thing 'Not allowed' here.
this is just a 'want to clear things up'
If i post a YCH here, and slap the one that people bid on in SCRAPS
can i post a advertisement in my main gallery to attract bidders not on my watchlist, or is that still considered spamming?
likewise
can i host the bidding of a YCH in a journal so that i am able to post the submission as a advertisement
or is it literally 1 submission thats it you can only 'advertise' in the description of completely unreated images that you can only hope people will look at?
From what I have read/understand it's really just 1 submission, period. It's a bit limiting for sure, but I understand why it's that way.
i don't do YCH auctions much just when i do i don't want to go against the rules u0u
Currently you can only have one submission that contains the (visual) contents of the timed event. You can have it mentioned in other art submissions provided those submissions are not modifications of the YCH piece. That submission can have the sole purpose of advertising the YCH but must contain original artwork.
For example, in one repost submission, you could have a thumbnail version of the YCH auction, words highlighting the YCH auction's details, and an original non-stock sketch or doodle (preferably complete) to compliment the composition. Perhaps your fursona holding a pencil. But again, this image cannot be stock (previously used) and instead must be original/new.
This isn't constructive at all.
Please repost this or I will be sold into slavery!
But really. No raffles for you. You and your puppies will all be sold into slavery. They'll probably be forced to pull a dog sled driven by a morbidly obese person now.
Ppl who post about medical needs, financial needs, sick family or pets who ask us to spread the word or make some sort of donation, etc.?
but you may post a journal out of the kindness of your heart without ill effects
Specifically, raffles and contests can no longer require people to post a journal about the raffle or contest in order to enter.
I believe that under the spirit of the rule, the answer to that is no. However, consider including new adoptables alongside the 'leftovers', and discounting the price of said leftovers. :3
SPAM SPAM SPAM
how bout posting constant journals about cons
is that considered spam to?
because they double as a 'i'm not here' and allows friends to possibly find said person at the event.
i do agree sometimes they get annoying though uvu
If you like the effect it has, simply continue to create journals that point people to new and talented artists. Doing this is still allowed, and is actually encouraged because it's good community spirit. :3
when I have form a couple of Batches only one or two from each batch over, can I put them together on one image and upload it (as an action for a lower price a an example)
but some things like this don't comes every day a leftover is a leftover after month
What's with journal I write by my own to inform peoples that I still have a YCH Auction or some Leftovers, are these also forbidden?
Sorry if I get confused by this new rules
sorry for all this stupit questions it's really late here and my brain wants to go to bed
I mean now this reminder artworks are forbidden but I see coming that many quick and half heart drawn Artworks will replace them, for me the "spam" is the same
know what I mean?
If you have a bunch of scattered leftovers and are doing an end-of-month sale for those designs, I don't think anyone would mind if you put them all together and uploaded that image. However, if you uploaded a new image every time one of the designs sold, that would fall under the same ruling as what is talked about here with YCH advertising. :3
The spirit of the rule is to reduce reposting of the same content, specifically in regards to the extremely-incomplete YCH auction pieces. The situation you describe is likely not something people would mind or take notice of. Just remember that moderation is key. ^_^
Reminders are helpful because you can drum up business to people outside your watchers, who might not know of you, and allows you to spread the word on an existing event. I'm not saying it's appropriate to spam every single day (or, fluff forbid, multiple times in a day), but I don't see the harm in placing a limit -- say, you can't post a reminder more than every 48 hours.
I will now suffer greatly in my income because I can't advertise in a free medium as I had before. Seeing as I'm trying to make money, I couldn't really afford to pay the price of advertisements on the site to begin with. This really isolates a lot of users. I'm not trying to start a fight, only state my mind honestly. I can understand why this was done, I just don't think it was handled as best as it could have been -- no offense intended. There was heavy demand to deal with this issue, so I can understand being under stress to manage it.
That being said, the argument that it's spam still holds true. I, however, don't really think it's that hard to just nuke or delete notifications in your inbox. Hell, I do it all the time. We have this feature for a reason.
My two cents, bleh, it'll not make a difference.
But if you want to target people outside your watchers, then there's two ways to do this: One is to make proper use of tagging and the search engine, and the other is to reduce overall clutter on the site so that people are able to make better use of general browsing. I believe this change is being made to facilitate the latter, and the easiest solution for both the artist and the consumer to compensate is to begin to make proper use of the search feature.
I will suggest to Dragoneer at some point that the default sorting method of the search engine be changed to 'date' rather than 'relevancy'. (I never have figured out how it decides what's relevant XD)
Also, don't be too much of a doomsayer. Those seeking such commissions will adapt over time. :3 YCH is still relatively new, and it's grown in popularity of use extremely quickly.
Oh, and about the 'just nuke/delete' bit, many of your commissioners are likely to hold jobs that keep them away from the internet, and when combined with general RL stuff, make it hard to find a lot of time to FA. If their inbox floods, and they resort to a full nuke, anything that was posted that they might have purchased is now a lost cause for them. ^_~ Some people watch 1000 people and get about an hour to browse things. Food for thought.
Firstly, a 24 hour limit is too lenient, aha. I think a strict 48 hour one, at the very least amount, would be best. Besides that, it's difficult to police things like this, so it's easier for mods to just disallow it in its entirety -- which isn't fair. It's the whole punish all for the mistakes of the few sort of thing. I think there should be limitations as opposed to completely disallowing it.
As for the tagging -- I'm sure many artists make full use of this, but it doesn't always work. I know I try my hardest to make an expansive tag list within the character limit. I think the issue in relying on that is how limited FA's tag system is compared to, say, Ink Bunny. With such a small character limit it is hard to describe in full all that might be featured by your submission, and thus it's often misused or joked with by artists because it isn't all that helpful. Sure you can tag some general terms, but for the most part there's only a limited number of things you could tag. Perhaps if FA expanded their tagging system it'd be more helpful to artists, but that doesn't seem likely (as it would be time consuming and more than likely put the site into read only mode).
I think relevancy is directly related to search tags and the popularity of the submission. If you search any random thing the most relevant post will be the most popular one -- which, again, is an issue seeing as it'll just perpetuate popular art/artists over aspiring ones.
I'm not being a doomsayer, just stating my opinion; you can and most likely will adapt over time, but popularity spreads faster than word of mouth, so in this case the same group of artists will continue to see a steady income, and struggling newbies (or 'less popular' artists) will not see that cash flow. I also think the popularity of the YCH auctions was directly related to how much they were advertised.
Lastly, I think that's a very small portion to cater to. I'm sure there are just as many users who watch 5 artists and are online all day statistically. They're opposite ends of a massive spectrum. From my experience, and again, this is all just my opinion, I haven't come across a user who absolutely detests updates on YCH auctions. I honestly think this was just a band-aid solution. It was a quick fix to an issue a portion of the users on the site were against. Seeing as I'm an auctioneer myself, I have a personal bias in this, but I'm trying to look at it level-headedly.
I just think that the whole situation could have been handled better because this is going to directly effect a number of users (both positively, and negatively, I assume). I think it could have at least been held demographically through a mass vote rather than suddenly have a ban slapped on it.
Search Tags: Useful for words that are not contained in the title or description of an image so that they turn up in site searches.
Any words contained in the description of an image, where there is no character limit, will still cause searches to pull up such things. Tags are just an easy way to include extra words, extra variations of words, etc without cluttering up the description of the image.
A 48 hour limit is awkward, where-as a single allowed repost period is much easier to police, similar to simply disallowing it. :3
(I detest YCH and will not watch someone who focuses on these. XD)
Anyway sorry, I'm out at a game night now, so I'm moderately distracted and giving a weak response. |3
It's nice to actually have an intelligent conversation about this on the internet, rather than a mindless fight that'd deteriorate into name calling and other juvenile things.
I just really think it boils down to my not liking how this was handled by the FA mods; I get what you're saying, and even agree with a few things, but I just think this was a sudden attempt to deal with an ongoing issue without much consideration. Now, I can't claim to know how much thought or time went into the whole ordeal, but from what I can see there's nothing done to the site in terms of this ban. It's just an additional rule, it'll not necessarily stop anyone, nor will it control the posting of spam.
People will break a written rule, time and again..., and there's no real policing other than the threat of punishment -- and I doubt that'd stop spammers considering they broke the rule in the first place while fully being aware of it. xD I think that's why, rather than abruptly 'stopping' the entire occurrence, a middle ground should have been met. At least, in this way, it wouldn't have caused such a stir.
I strongly support the idea of a strictly managed 48 hour + rule between "reminders". I highly doubt seeing a reminder in your inbox every couple days would upset someone (I mean, obviously I could be wrong, to each their own). And again, I understand that some users don't have much time to browse, and watch quite a few users, so maybe FA could have installed an option for you to check off if your post is a reminder (much in the same way we can select the maturity level of our work), or allow users to set themselves to either ignore reminders or accept them.
This way you'd not need to police for reposts and could just let the flow go as it goes. As for your stance on YCH auctions, to each their own, I say! I'm a user that posts them, and though they're not the bulk of my work, I genuinely do enjoy them. They let me incorporate characters I might not otherwise know/use while still assisting me with my income like any commissions would. c:
Additionally, ONE 48+ hour reminder would be just fine. But you get artists that run like, 10 YCH type things at the same time. So that's another 10 things for that one artist. :X I may be exaggerating a bit here, but there's certainly more at hand than a single reminder per person. That's why I am thinking that in combination with a single-reminder limitation, the maximum number of timed events able to be advertised at one time should be limited to three (possible exceptions for very-long-term timed events).
The lack of quick moderation and the lack of an easy way to report such violations is certainly an issue, but falls under a matter of both coding and lack of suitable volunteers. Not to go as far as public shaming but true fans of artists who are in violation of policies should be alerted that they are in violation. Someone I watch today uploaded two stream notices under fairly quick succession. I didn't say anything, but honestly I should have pointed out to him that he should not be doing that. *shrugs* Such violations add up on people's stress levels when they can't stand having repost clutter.
I am 100% sure that they have been talking about this in heavy detail since at least when the $1111 raffle was starting to surge. I, myself, had a talk with Dragoneer about the issue over on Reddit. So it was at least a week on that issue alone. I wasn't following the YCH ordeal prior to this, but I can imaging it was at least discussed a fair amount. I think there may have been a more flexible solution in regards to it, but always keep in mind that there's OTHER things that go on behind the scenes. Fender did, at one point, mention that there are other YCH changes in the pipeline. This may be a 'Step 1' towards that goal. I can only suggest to people to be patient, and for the time being focus on self-improvement and strong PR with clients.
You should prohibit 'Streaming' submissions from the art galleries as well, they are not art, tend to be glorified adverts, and they clutter up the message box. Users should just make a journal for things like that.
sorry hit send too fast
And they would have to have already seen and liked a person's artwork enough to want to see their work in action in the first place. It's like saying that people became interesting in a film/game/cartoon after seeing how it was made. Sure, there are people who might have have been enticed that way, but I seriously doubt it's as significant a number as you're implying.
I am pretty sure users don't really care to watch a stream unless they were already interested in that person's artwork to begin with. The removal of these kind of submission would not affect these people.
doesn't mean i'll stay but i usually at least try to check it out
but we all have our own opinions!
And sadly, requiring some level of 'quality' on such streaming notifications is a very subjective thing that would be hard to properly enforce in a way that doesn't penalize 'lesser' artists. While there could be a way to make the streaming notifications more visually tolerable, the main point is that they do serve a very important purpose. At the very least, it would be nice for them to have some form of artwork on them; text only being not allowed.
As a policy reminder, a user is not allowed to post a stream notification more than once in 24 hours, and is allowed to post it to both a journal and a submission. If an artist you watch is consistently violating this, I would suggest reporting them to an admin. :3
I'm not trying to be rude by any means but just from recent experience personally with trouble tickets and still seeing icons violating the tos etc I don't see this bein an actual ability at the current staffing levels to be effective.
I'd apply myself, but I find my free time almost always fully filled, or my motivation for such hassles lacking. To be 'required' to do such things would be mentally draining in my case. However I've spent 8-10 hours so far tonight sifting through and replying to as many people as possible, helping clarify and give suggestions. I think my posts alone account for 4% of this 2500 post journal. XD It's been fun but I wouldn't want to be obligated.
But again, they are running on volunteers, not paid staff. I don't know which one DA uses, but they are certainly a better funded site thanks to many sponsors and official gear, etc. I suppose the admin's jobs will only get worse as behavior declines around here. I wish the community could better police itself, it did a pretty good job for a while. But I know some issues really do need a mod intervention.
If the issue is very pressing, I would suggest noting Dragoneer directly, and he might be able to see what's up.
(Not an admin*) :3
I'd recommended more than a few years ago to add a new type of submission specifically for advertising that users can "Uncheck/opt out" for every account they watch if they don't want the spam. That apparently was never even considered. I'd also asked to be able to remove journals from specific accounts using a similar option since there are some people I would like to read journals from but the majority is useless dribble that I just nuke.
it.
Give me another means to advertise and sure, I'll agree with this change, but as this website doesn't have that - in all frankness fuck this shit. I hardly think posting a reminder every 2-3 days is "spamming" its just that, an advertisement.
but some people were submitting it every 30 minutes or so which is why they ruined it for the rest of us
Would this by chance affect the ability for others (of their own will without asking about it and you as an artist not saying anything about it) post a journal about you holding commissions, or get said journal poster ban-hammered?
Also, had a feeling this would happen with that $1111K raffle going on. Kind of glad that its not allowed anymore. Really hated having my inbox flooded with those damned journals on a daily basis x.x
See
I nver entered any because of the journal requirements. Now I can... and that means when I submit art that's 1k+ accounts watching me that see it.
Always hated spam. Both from a can and journal.
And I only was aggravated with this $1111 journal spam. Plus, its more like buying watchers with that sorta thing.
FurAffinity doesn't have a group system like DeviantART, so with a constant flow of content, things get washed out so easily by multiple submissions...
Like I said, I can understand why, but it makes things harder for people with unsold adopts and such.
However, journal spam is understandable. I hated that.
why do i seriously get the idea that this rule was only made due to that mass $1111 raffle going on right now
its just that the FA staff tends to not do anything like this unless A: a lot of people complain about it
B: a popufur comments on it which gets a lot of attention meaning they have to say something about it
and C: something like this gets huge enough that they themselves start to get annoyed by it
now if only they can fix/improve other things about this site now
I'm currently waiting on word back through another source, but even at the most lenient you cannot give anything in exchange for signal boosting.
I'm checking to see if 'ask politely but give nothing' is allowed.
I found a lot of interessting and not so popular Artist thanks to this Raffels and Remindes
and they are a good Chance for not so popular Artist to get some attantion
nya my opinion
As for the timed event reminders, I can only suggest making better use of the search engine to find things you might like. It's a great way to skim a limited selection of content. And when it's not totally filled with duplicates, it makes the task of browsing much easier. :D Hope this helps.
On the other hand, I rather like this change. It makes selling things a tad more difficult, but there are plenty other ways to advertize.
There should be proposed other alternatives to this situations...
I'll do so in the proper time. Thanks by your answer.
Was getting sick of all the journal spam.
I know the people running it; I (and anyone else who knows them) can more or less guarantee they aren't gonna back out.
You see mostly people whining about the Possessions more then the art. And those who whine about the art don't really see why they should be allowed. And that's fine, But why not just go Half and Half.
And can I mention the FA Filter. Look it up on Google or whatever with your browser next to it. It DOES work and it's very efficient. Just 5 minutes you have to take out of your day to get what you want, and the ability to leave others to their own choices :) That is all from me
Stupendous.
What are the new suggested alternative ways to get the word out about something?
When I'm online I tend to prefer to practice my art by giving something away for free. As much as I love and appreciate my handful of watchers, I don't really want to draw a whole gallery of free art for the same few persons.
It's Christmas so like many others of us, I was planning a few holiday giveaways. How am I supposed to let people know about them? I'm just sort of confused, and feel a little undermined.
Maybe post a regular drawing, and in the description be like "Want something like this? I do free art for watchers!"
You can see descriptions on posts just on a hover, so people'd prolly pick up on it.
I wanted to do an advent calendar type thing, but with my watcher count almost equal to the amount of things I'd like to give away, it just doesn't seem very exciting.
Then, you'd get to draw something you want, get to make some random new person happy, and potentially get an entirely new crowd of watchers out of the whole thing. If the person is really nice, they might even tip you for your generosity.
There's all sorts of fun community-based things you can do for people that don't have to require people to repost a journal in order to be eligible, and they'll still have a big impact on your goal of branching out. ^__^ Be creative! Creative thinkers are what sparked this wave of YCH stuff, after all.
lol people seriously, didnt know you people are that poor, and stupid, give more attention to scammers and fags like him and then cry because of new spam restriction rules xD
Everyone who watches B in your example might also be looking at what B favorites. If B favorites art from A, then everyone who watches B might notice it once in a while if they keep checking what B favorites since it tends to correspond with their interests, thus some of them may then go on to watch A anyway. And that way they do so more of their own accord, rather than all of them receiving possibly unwanted notices about C, D, E, F, and G's raffles just from A alone in a week.
So while I understand that this is one way to go about it, I think that there is more quality gained by forming proper interpersonal relationships with artists, their fanbase, and each other as a whole.
(As a note I'm a fan of reddit but not a fan of facebook.) - (I follow 3 sub-reddits and 1 facebook user lol.)
Guh. I've made about 125 comments in this thread so far. I'm getting close to the bottom though! *gets back to it*
That's how I often do it.
I see X person post a raffle about Y artist.
Hmm, haven't heard of Y before...let's check out them.
Maybe I'll enter the raffle, but more often I don't actually enter it, but maybe I'll still watch them instead.
Also these rule changes only affect journals that are of an advertisement nature. If you feel like you want to tell people about how your friend's car broke down and you want them to leave a friendly shout as a means to cheer up, you can fully do that and post a journal to let them know. So that aspect, which is more valuable than "LULZ I REPOST THEEZ SO AI CAN WIN SOME FREE ARTTTTTTT PWEEZE REPOST JORNALLL!!!!!!!", is not affected. :P
The outcome doesn't need much speculative insight: A handful of artists will get pissed, make a lot of noise, insult the administration and move their ych/auction/adoptables/raffle business onto other artsites OR starts to be smart and readapts their ways of doing art.
I've been making sure everyone knows that it's still perfectly fine to promote an artist you like the content of. And this way, if I'm watching someone, and they post something about another artist, I know it's because they really like that person's art and not just because their human nature of greed has taken over and told them 'hey, free stuff, repost this!'
So, yes, by all means, we need to bring back the true community spirit around here. If someone is an under appreciated artist, then people should take the time to tell their friends about that artist! Tell them about that really awesome experience you had commissioning someone. Tell them about how the way they draw cats is just right, or about that entertaining time you had while sitting in with their stream.
FFS TALK TO EACH OTHER, PEOPLE! |3
Create an ad submission type that people can choose whether or not they want to watch (kinda like scraps are now). Then have the Ads display in another row on the front page, so they don't eat up people's inboxes or take over where new art is posted. Limit how often you can post under this category to once per day or something.
Just an idea, I don't code or anything but I don't think it would be that hard to do and this way it wouldn't bother watchers or completely take over the website. I really really hate these new rules because it hurts smaller artists so badly. I'm pretty much gonna rail against it as hard as I can.
(Not an admin*) :3
1. Are art raffles not allowed in journals anymore?
I don't mean the spam to win, I mean you comment below and I chose from the comments who wins or not? No reposting the journal??
AND
2. Are Livestream/Join.Me Submission posts not allowed anymore?
I'm just a little confused on what this is actually outlining.;;
art raffles are still completely allowed!
you may NOT require/request/suggest any advertisement for others to repost it.
and this does not effect livestream or join.me submissions at this time!
I'm just making sure...I can STILL do YCH auctions, just not submission reminders right? I don't really do those anyway, I just want to be 100% clear I can still do my YCH/adoptable auctions as a single submission because those are a huge part of my income.
how are people to get the word out about their work, i do a annual raffle every new years eve just to give people a chance to get free art when they cannot afford it and also to get customers what am i suppose to do?
-the banners is like paying another bill and the Site Seasonal Banners are so difficult to obtain.
What about live streams banners are those spam to?
The only thing this new rule stops are contests that require others to repost information about the contest as a barrier for entry or in a way that gives them a (potential) reward. It does not stop voluntary reposts, general artist pimping, cause-awareness reposts, etc.
Streaming submissions are limited to one every 24 hours. This has not changed.
That second one... eh. If it's like every 2-3 days, I don't have a problem with it. It really hurts us artists who can't quite afford ad-space and aren't "popufurs" that have millions of watchers who are willing to pay for their art. :/
So while the jump from 'a resub a day' to 'none at all' is a fairly major one (I might have tried 'one repost per timed event, ever' instead), it's one that collectively the community will adapt to rather quickly through the use of the search engine or some sort of creative loophole. XD
Hopefully that helps explain things a bit.
Granted, YCHs on the front page have never been a problem for me when they instated the "one a day" rule. I did have one person I was watching post reminders every 30 minutes, but she's since stopped. It never stopped me from browsing the front page as I pleased.
You know what did stop me? Selfie photos, streaming notifications (though rare), and just stuff that really isn't furry related. I don't care about this new fox hat you got; I want to see art. If this is an art site, why are people treating it like a photobucket, or a facebook? (but that's neither here nor there)
DeviantART is an art site, and yet they still created an entire commission system sorted by medium and price for those looking. SoFurry is an art site, yet they still have settings as well. So does Weasyl.
So what's stopping FA from working with its users over something they KNOW is popular, and that everyone would benefit from? The commission page is greatbut there isn't really any opportunity to communicate outside of your watchers. If they would either listen to users or come up with a solution that keeps the people bitching about "oh, there are so many YCH auctions I'm sick of it" at bay, and help those who try to earn money happy. For a lot of people, it's like when an admin for Twitch banned and closed the account of a speedrunner who made his living off of his videos. If a solution hadn't been come to, he would have effectively lost his job.
Sorry about ranting, but I just feel FA needs to take a different approach to this. Instead of trying to hide the problem, sit down and figure it out. The staff are smart, the users are (mostly) smart, why can't we just work together? Surely there is a solution that benefits all parties. FA is one of the biggest furry sites out there; it's time it started acting like it.
So, yes, they might already be trying to figure out how to limit things like photos, but it's a very risky line to walk and they have to be careful. As far as new features, they have to make sure that such features are properly flexible this time around, I think. ^_^; But yes, people are using this site for things other than it was intended. That doesn't just include those trying to make it their sole source of income, but also includes those that are using it like they would their personal image-dump site and Facebook. Both are bad for everyone when people try to abuse the rules for their own benefits.
(As a note, no, they won't disallow things like fox hats because it's word of mouth advertising for some furry out there, and if it's not, it's pointing at least someone out there towards something they might want to own and as a member of the r/foxes reddit, if it wasn't for allowing stuff like that, my room would be 20% less foxy than it currently is. I've found many cool things in the recent months due to submissions some might find off topic. XD)
Honestly wtf is fa good for anymore?
By staking on more and more rules how the hell is anyone supposed to do something/post/say anything and not break a rule?
There are filters whether the site endorses them or not I honestly don't care.
I am so sick and tired of everyone bitching about being "spammed" SO WHAT just delete it like everyone else and move the fuck on you whinny ass baby.
This is growing into a flipping epidemic of FULLY GROWN ADULTS acting like 5 year olds.
NO WONDER hardly anyone likes this community.
I don't care if I am being "dramatic" or "flaming" or "trolling" whatever you wanna call me fine but I think someone needs to say something, hopefully I am not the first =.=
The only thing slightly annoying is people who post "reminders" every 10-15 minutes EVERY DAY for something that end in a week.
But seriously for someone to have to go out of their way to make an entirely NEW picture to promote an auction....do you realize how short the average attention span is?
mine is about 27.8 seconds long. If what I am looking at doesn't get to the point I am not interested.
I dunno I just think your going over board with some of the stupidest crap.
I am also going to add, I would normally try to seem educated but I am tired and a little irritated with this site at the moment.
It wants you to use it and quit being a baby.
But seriously that's still SPAM and isn't the whole point of what they are trying to do is cut that down?
Why make all these rules just for someone to SPAM journals every 15 minutes?
What your saying is a complete contradiction to your comment below...yes I have read it.
Pick one and stick with it.
These are the people you are trying your hardest to reach. If you make it difficult for them to find the information they are looking for, then everyone suffers. You're welcome to feel the way you do, but keep in mind that many people only get an hour or so to check through things around here. :3
No hostility mean, just providing another outlook to the whole 'just delete it' argument. ^_^
I may have a bit more time than most to check fa but that doesn't mean I don't work. Just so that is clear.
I just happen to work from home for myself, again just to make sure that is clear.
If you want to press the nuke it button I applaud you considering your just hitting the delete button and not being a baby about it.
I also feel the need to say if you only get 1 hour leisure time then wth are you doing on fa!? You'll burn it all just trying to load one damn page.
There are much MUCH better things to do in 1 hour than being on this site. I'm just saying.
I'm not being hostile either just overly blunt.
I still stick with the whole "get over yourself and press the delete button."
I have 225 people I am watching and that list is slowly growing and out of all these people only about 3-4 REALLY spam the hell out of auctions.
Even better I can only think of ONE off the top of my head who I consider the worst.
Anyways I will apologize since my comment is all over the place. My thoughts are a bit jumbled and this journal is crazy long so I wanted to try to get most of my thoughts here in this reply.
This all the way
"You know...I tend to enter A LOT of raffles for different things....I kinda actually feel like a beggar doing it "
Now you can feel like a rich person again, with integrity. I understand that you feel like now your chances for getting free art are less, but don't forget that there used to be a time when artists would hold raffles without any requirements. :] They are what you need to look out for. And I am certain they still exist. Anything else turns you into a pawn, a means of advertisement, a tool. You shouldn't be angry about the rule changes.
That said, repeat customers are a very valuable thing. A friend treats her fans similarly and has many repeat long-time customers thanks to quality PR.
I know they are just using me to get some attention but I don't mind.
If I am entering the raffle it means I like the artist and want to help out anyways.
I don't feel like a pawn XD Just like a beggar xD
I am angry because the more rules <the less I can do <the less I wanna even come back to the site.
Lemme put it this way, I am still on a site from when I was about 14-15 its aimed at the teens roughly (or it once was)
I have only seen a lot of drama from the recent change in "ceo" than any other problems the site has had since it was started in 2003.
The only change they made that didn't make any sense (but then again it did xD) was the pose button to make your avatar sit or stand.
If you pressed it repeatedly in front of someone you could give off the illusion of "humping" them. It was funny, just about everyone thought it was funny, but like here a small amount of people cried about it so now there is a 30 second lock on the button.
I am shocked you went out of your way to go on my page and read any of my journals. Were you hoping to catch me flip flopping?
Or maybe thought I was trolling? I am in no way being rude or mean by asking I am just curious xD
Anyways thanks for your "output" of information :3
So anyways I was thinking are you going to introduce captchas to the site or maybe find another way?
that is literally it they wont do anything to tighten up security or upgrade any of the site.
What about the artists that advertise that they're streaming? Do they have to use a different image each time now?
i might be wrong though
I would personally like it if all streaming notifications had some sort of furry-related artwork on them; where text-only notifications are not allowed. I don't mind repeat images for these, however, provided they are polished. This makes the notifications recognizable at a glance. "Brand recognition" ;3
Just make a journal category for YCH or SPAM TO WIN
Allow users to disable said journals
I personally have no problem with the two
YOU GUYS ARE BECOMING TO DAMN PICKY
But how can we then like.. promote Auctions?
Cus.. yeah.. o_o;;
Thatd' make me very happy to keep ^^;
To be honest it seems like a bunch of children are commandeering the situation to benefit themselves. I'm sorry to say this. I don't mean to insult anyone, I would never, but this just how I see it my point of view. It can handled differently to make everyone happy, instead of two sides disagreeing because of how this will negatively impact people. The site's user-base is likely to decrease.
Yes, I can understanding stopping the journal "spam" by saying it can't be used, but many people have brought up a valid point that that kind of advertisement does help with an artist's exposure. I'm sure it may be an attempt to bring back the site to something it had been in the past, but the past isn't always good. Otherwise we would be living in the past, still. But we're not. Change is necessary to move forward, this is stepping backwards. There are better ways to cut back on constant posting, and over doing it with reminders. Just because the way is easy does not by any means make it the best way.
I don't usually comment, or voice myself. But I could not just sit quietly with this happening.
What i was trying to say but this is the educated version XD
Thank you Alu-chan I lack the capacity right now to be this smart.
There's no need to thank mee. lol
Don't be afraid to speak your mind yo.
I figure if more people voice their opinions on this, that it may have more impact. Motivating part of wanting to post. and it's nice to see people you know on this page on the same view as yourself, I must say.
Yes I am socked there are quite a few, most people just want to agree regardless of their stance.
As far as resubs/reminders go, I personally feel that a single reminder should be allowed per timed event. But for now, it will be interesting to see how the community compensates for a lack of reminders. They may come up with something genuinely creative and not strictly abusive. And perhaps more people will take the time to make use of the search engine and its features. :3
One other point, one I brought up a few times in earlier posts of mine, is that the people that artists are trying to target, the commissioners, the ones with money, they have these things called jobs that eat up a LOT of their free time. The easier it is for them to log on and browse, the easier it is for them to sift through their journal announcements... the less likely they will get behind, nuke everything, and end up with many lost opportunities for commissions. When you make it hard for the client, the noisier people will always win. Be nice to your clients. <3
Might as well while the panties are up there good XD
Might get a worthy reaction.
Then again I don't know what the delete button is for
Now if only you guys could get a streaming notification system up so that my inbox and the front page aren't flooded with STREAMING NAO messages. I know the code is old as Rome but couldn't you at least force in some sort of new message section exclusively for stream notices so legitimate submissions aren't blown off the page by the same reposted stream notices every 10 minutes?
Hopefully this helps give some ideas. And by all means, artist pimping journals are still allowed and encouraged. If you want to spread an artist's name around, go for it. ^_^
As an ad purchaser I found it very inconvenient when a mistake was made and there was no page itself I could go to to see if my ad had even been taken care of without bothering someone in email to check it a billion times. I think making a page that listed all of the ads currently in queue would greatly benefit not only ad purchasers, but those wishing to browse ads (many a time have a refreshed before clicking on that pretty dragon and then it wouldnt come back FUUU). They could generate in a random spot just like they do now for equal top-of-page chance, and perhaps even have a way where the user's icon (or a smaller square-size image of their choice. maybe even ask they be non-animated for loading purposes) appears, and when mouse-over it shows their banner, keeping the page tidy and possibly a lot easier to load. All of the ads would be in one convenient spot so that everyone who has paid for a slot has a better chance of being seen by someone who WANTS to find new artists to commission (or else they wouldn't be on the ads page), and artists can better manage when mistakes happen and not have to wait 5ever for email responses on something that may or may not be wrong. They will know immediately.
I also think having a completely new system for commission posts would benefit greatly. Instead of integrating it with the tagging system a whole new 'section' completely for commissions will ensure that art is no longer pushed off by ych posts, and ych posts are no longer pushed off by art. Someone can go to completely separate parts of the sites to search for these separate things depending on what they are looking for.
As far as streaming, one site I was on had a little box down at the bottom of the front page that listed all the users who were currently streaming. they had just checked a box in their user tools to show that they were and gave their streaming link. viola, all three things working together to promote people in the way they choose to.
tl;dr, just typed a whole bunch of stuff to make myself feel better because none of it is happening
Also yes to the others stuff, I keep hoping for those thing or similar.
I would personally enjoy a way to browse banners, both to ensure that a banner is set up correctly, and as a way to find a banner I noticed but missed. But like with many other things, there has to be an underlying coding change before it can happen. :X
For now, FA's only ammunition is rules changes, and sadly recent events have caused these issues to need a quick resolution to discourage the practices.
Is that against the rules now to? if so...
*plays a 2 gryphon voice soundboard*
WHAT THE ACTUAL ****
:/
Or try using the search for 'free' 'request' and 'raffle'. I cringe even thinking about it, but I'm sure lots of users do that several times a day.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5280762/
Lol xD. Just my silliness
CALM DOWN
YOU CAN STILL SPAM YOUR AUCTION ENDLESSLY USING JOURNALS
FINISH READING THE JOURNAL BEFORE FREAKING OUT
IF PEOPLE WANT TO DO YOUR AUCTION 10 MORE OF THE SAME PICTURE ISN'T GOING TO HELP.
>Most people nuke journals.
>They push legitimate works that people want to share with others since adverts are for some reason not separated D:
>They will have to learn to read journals or only savvy users will take advantage of the offerings. It probably won't change your profits very much since the serious bidders are probably watching you already.
>Users will have to make submissions that aren't the same <Pay for art here> to get more exposure/watchers, so maybe some will become more productive which might be good, or they might do more personal art which is also good, though yes, it will hurt artists who are only in it for money here any more and no longer do original creative works.
>Server gets a bit more relief, though it probably wasn't affecting it too much.
I'm not denying it makes advertising harder, but I guess they're trying to increase FA's appeal the the large majority who do not participate in the commissioner system.
Many folks sometimes browse the new uploads for the last 24 hours, myself included.
>They push legitimate works that people want to share with others since adverts are for some reason not separated D:
Making a feature for YCH and auction ads would be really cool, but we don't even have basic folders yet...
>They will have to learn to read journals or only savvy users will take advantage of the offerings. It probably won't change your profits very much since the serious bidders are probably watching you already.
That's not true at all, at least from my experience. Many of the folks who bid on my auctions are new to me. Further, sometimes they don't watch me after bidding.
>Users will have to make submissions that aren't the same <Pay for art here> to get more exposure/watchers, so maybe some will become more productive which might be good, or they might do more personal art which is also good, though yes, it will hurt artists who are only in it for money here any more and no longer do original creative works.
Implying artists who are only in it for money cannot make original creative works is rather obscene. :/ I'm not sure if you meant to imply that, but assuming any artist is 'just in it for the money' is kind of rude.
>Server gets a bit more relief, though it probably wasn't affecting it too much.
Having folders so artists don't have to make several accounts instead would most likely alleviate it more...
so prepare to delete a bunch of journals all over again eh? XD
Though, there's something I've always thought of that this website could use. Two things in fact. This may not be the journal to talk about them, but they are sort of the same things if they're spammed a lot.
1. There should be a 'Steam Notification' feature on FA. Users can activate it to tell their watchers they are streaming, and close it when they're done. That way, they won't need to make a Submission or Journal to announce it every time. It would help out.
2. Another thing that would be great if sending notifications to watchers when you update a submission. I have a flash animation that I update everynow and then. I would love to notify people when it gets updated, that way I can save the comments and favorites I gotten with it, instead of resubmitting the new version of it. same goes with Pictures in the works, like updating a line art to a full color.
You think those would be good ideas? Give me a reply if so.
2. A separate field for 'updated submissions' similar to the display of journals has potential. "X cleared submission was updated on Y date." Conceptually it is nice, but realize that any coding based submissions are not likely to be implemented due to a global revision being in the works. Once they get that handled, hoooopefully they'll be able to make smaller tweaks to the site without as much of a hassle.
It's nice to see someone thinking, though. :D
The sad part is that the journals are only created when someone WANTS to join in. It's not even bots or anything. It helps promote artists (or in the opposite case? It helps people get a chance to win something) and its a way to get people noticed or spread the word about something or WHATEVER.
Yeah it can be kind of annoying (sometimes, not very often for me since i couldn't care less) to get a bunch of "RAFFLE" journals but you can literally click all of them and delete them. You don't even have to look at them.
Same with reminders. How do you expect people to make money when they can't even advertise what they're selling?
This site thinks it's doing a good thing but it's only helping out the whiney lazy asses who don't know how to click a button without getting royally pissed off about it.
God forbid someone tries to give something away to people or sell something.
Which...sucks. Haha....
Pros -
We're getting rid of the Mass Histaria that is the 'Repost this JOurnal for..' Situation, which was getting worse and worse and worse and worse as time went on, You could maybe only watch 5+ People and odds are thoes 5 are 'Entering' one of thoes contests, and several others, Chances are your gonna ehar about these artists, that might not eb artists, more so people that are Friends of, Associated with, Or Buying Art from another person for you if you neter there COntests... Yeah it get's annoying real quick. With these new Rules up it should trim down that line, but help people look into the 'Actual' alternatives of 'Actual' Signal Boosting or 'CHeck this Artists' Journals/Submissions since thoes are more respectfull and don't have some hidden Adgenda so blaently attached to it.
Cons -
Still not alot of suport in the site via, 'Locating' certian things. THe FA filter which is not Exactly FA approved cold filter some of these thigns out, but is still abit testie, and would either let some slip out cause people aren't uniforming there titles, (Spamming the Exact same title all the time) OR could jsut filter all the Journals that peg a 'Particular Keyword/string' making it a pain to go to the FIlte,r open up hidden journals and reading them out. WIthout the View more option that is shown in the Submission section if your watching 1000+ Or so people and they're all posting about the COntests, the journals that 'Aren't' about the contests are smashed in and together, and now it's either Nuke or REad the contests journals... or for the people that do the 'COmbo' journals your flashing them out too.
It's a nice little rule change to help us out ABit more MAjorly in the long run, and sure to cut out alot of the 'Fat' in the journal collections, but it's probly gonna need some Tweeking to make sure of proper Pooling of the information within a journal is Said targeting will insure that we get the good journals away from the bad ones, and hopefully people don't try and wrench ways aorund the rule to make it worse for anyone else. the YCH I could care less about... they're getting bothersome but I'm on the side liens about it, it wasn't that intense on my end so I ahve no real say in it.
Just my two cents.
but i do agree it should become a actual site feature
Stopping the journal spam? Understandable. I think a tag system would be nicer than banning it completely, but I am a well-off artist that doesn't need raffle work to get anywhere.
The no reposting of YCH/Auctions, though, I do NOT agree with.
My understanding is there was a one reminder a day post limit; I think this should be better enforced over banning them completely.
A lot of people over look journals, and reposting gets more viewers and possible bidders.
Again, a tag system would do wonders if nothing else.
There should be a separate notification system for those. Get at least 10 of them submissions and journals a day, sometimes 4-5 from the same person...
but it doesn't get very messy.
there is a free add-on filter to hide these items if it helps http://fafilter.me/
i'm sorry i've been trying to answer to so many people i'm getting my words scrambled
I realized a lot of people had been posting that journal, heck even I did I just wanted to have a shot at money regardless haha.
But I don't watch a ton of people on here since, like I said I don't come on here a lot so yeah didn't really think about that. XD
Eh guess this is good for the site and all~
I guess that's a good way to find new artist but eh, like I said, I use dA more so eeeh lD
??
Personally I don't like this. I sometimes like to see journals about free art raffles because it gives me a chance for art or whatever they are having raffled.
As for the repeating art. I find it a great way to learn about streams. Also the free art that some people give out is a great way to practice. I don't feel comfortable randomly asking people if I can draw their characters.
Carmen above said:
Do not put anything in your journal that would encourage a user to directly create a new journal, etc.
It's one thing to share what cool stuff your friends are up to or to help someone out of your own free will; however, it's different if you share content BECAUSE you were encouraged to do so directly by the journal or that user.
as for the second thing i'm not sure the best way to go about it. perhaps just mention it in newer submissions 'hey i do freebies for watchers take a look here: ' or something of the like
There should be nothing wrong making journals asking for characters to draw, and a single picture can still be used once for advertising purposes, and there's nothing against lots of journals about the same thing as long as you're not making the journal so many times a day it violates the regular spam rules.
I also don't think the rule covers livestream notifications right now. Generally it is assumed the streamer removes the post eventually, though I wouldn't be surprised if they change their minds later and have a one time per stream rule since it essentially creates another kind of spam if someone is really obnoxious about it.
Streams are currently unaffected, and are still limited to one submission in a 24 hour period per user.
Don't be too shy about asking others if you can draw their character. Ask if they'd like free art of X character and be pleasant. You can also offer requests at places like reddit or the FAF (though I'm not a fan of the userbase in the latter). A big part of being a well-liked artist is to be personable and polite. Treat people well while you are building up your skill and they'll stick with you and spread your name around.
Wonder what much more suitable way people will come up with now.
Take a chill pill, will yea.
Just take this ---> http://fafilter.me/ <--- and try it on
I guaranty it will solve all your petty problems.
now can we stop squabbling amongst ourselves like children
1) you can still post YCH for sale
2) you cannot repost that same image unless its been modified to the buyer/winner's choice
3) you cannot do "call for action" raffles
Sooooo if thats the case...
1) can you still do WIP pictures?
2) can you let people know you's appreciate it if they promoted your raffle?
2. Yes, as long as they are not being offered or implied any sort of extra benefit for doing so.
3. BONUS! You can also keep doing journals for YCH.
2) you cannot mention promoting the raffle. people have to do it of their own choice
The user is just letting them know that they need the raffle to be better known?
OR
what about raffles where "200 entries = hand paws 400= full suit"
Im not saying Id do this just to circumvent the law because I think its a weak law
BUT
my opinion still stands that a rule like this is just too vague and needs refining and possible other alternatives like implemented user filters.
as Carmen above said:
Do not put anything in your journal that would encourage a user to directly create a new journal, etc.
It's one thing to share what cool stuff your friends are up to or to help someone out of your own free will; however, it's different if you share content BECAUSE you were encouraged to do so directly by the journal or that user.
I would hazard to say that #-entry requirements is too similar to the 'spam-to-win' concept. It's currently not allowed, but I personally foresee abuse of such methods to the point that I would personally say 'static rewards only'. Nice job on thinking of that potential loophole though. ;3
I agree with the other users, implement a filter system like http://fafilter.me/
Honestly the wording with these rules are so vague and broad, that like a lot of irl laws, they have a hard time doing what they're intended to do because they are just too general.
They ACTUALLY cost more time and energy from the admins (and say police or courts) to handle all the influx of cases because there's just too many shades of grey and ALL of them end up getting report because people are unsure of whats legal or not.
To be fair, I'm not sure what the place would be, but one interesting idea could be to have an icon that's mature and only visible on mature artwork. So not only do you get naughtiness when viewing the art, but also when viewing the comments. Yay~ ;) (I would still say the icon should be risque only, or maybe one click past risque, but it'd be more fun to see such things there than reading a journal like this.)
Late night ramble. I've been at this topic for 10 hours now. The end is not nearly in sight. x_x;;
but the idea of the use of mature icons sounds good! i'd +1 this
why should other people have to share your dislike of what you consider "risque" icons when theres a perfectly applicable method of giving both parties what they desire?
why should other people have to share your dislike of what you consider "risque" icons when theres a perfectly applicable method of giving both parties what they desire?
Just because you find a butt icon risque doesnt mean I do. And if you wish not to see that, then you should have a filter just for your page.
Not telling everyone else not to have butt icons.
What if YOUR idea of risque was showing anything gay? or say anti american? or any number of things that may offend a particular crowd. Not your job to go tell them how to live life. It is in your power (or should be however - and this seriously needs to be implemented on FA) to choose whether or not to see said images WITHOUT infringing on someone elses beliefs.
Sadly, there are still standards outside of the walls of the internet. Free speech is one thing, but the current icon policies are very limiting for people who might want to browse the site in a public place, around prude family members, at work, etc. Not everyone is as publicly open as you or the next and there are some general standards that exist for such things.
And as a reminder, the people who have jobs that would care about this sort of risque natured icons are the ones that you really want to be able to browse the site as often as possible. They have a good job with a good income. If they can browse FA more, that means they can spend more time finding artists they want to commission. ;3 That means more sales and support for more artists. That one guy's 'hour a day' of browsing time just became two.
So, again, the standard is set by the American workplace for such things. Not by any individual person. I feel that FA should abide by those standards, while possibly giving a secondary venue (mature rated images) for showing off of more risque non-SFW icons. Because yes, those can be fun sometimes.
That makes NO sense what so ever.
Allowing for an icon to be marked as NSFW and filtered allows those people wanting to browse in a SFW area to browse the site without worry, while allowing those who would like to view the NSFW material because they are in such an environment to do so.
And just FYI not everyone works in a workplace where such things are "risque" nor do all users come from america, be careful of what you are assuming is a fact.
IVE been talking about implementing better filtering systems.
Not just solid black and white rules that do/say nothing about the 50 shades of grey in between.
Dunno what you think I was talking about.
But getting back on topic, I dont understand what they were trying to say, because from my POV they wanted a safer webpage to view at work. And I totally agree with that. I offered a solution that allows people the ability to have that without infringing on the people who dont view at work, or say work at an adult store (you may laugh, but i actually know people who do such).
And yet it still seems there is a disagreement somewhere.
I'd actually like to know what the person is trying to say, and make sense of it, than just give up and mark them as an idiot/dumb/stupid/etc.
I was getting tired of seeing spam in my journals for raffles. Especially when that $1111 thing came up. How bothersome.
How does one prove that an image has been reposted/spammed X amount of times without people to screencap and 'name and shame' said individuals - isn't that in itself a recipe for civil war between the people who use the site for trying to make a living and those who just use the site as a means to upload artwork?
Can you all please put some sort of 'groups' option on a fast track, especially since there are so many new rules preventing folks from getting easy promotion. Or at least add some more toggles to the search options.
Thanks.
Another option would be to have a separate section on the front page for people advertising YCH and other business proposition stuff like that - but that isn't going to stop people behaving irresponsibly and spamming their images over and over again.
I personally haven't noticed a problem with the raffle journals (but that's probably because I don't watch many people) but it sounds like a pestilence which needs to be swiftly stamped out - so I commend the FA admin guys for that one.
Take for example I did a free Christmas badge raffle. I have barely any watchers so I requested them to share the journal so more people would be aware of it.
In the end the winner of the raffle was someone who doesnt even have a badge for their fursuit and is a younger kid who doesnt have the money to get one.
Considering i did this as a feel good gift giving for Christmas thing and not to gain attention/popularity, I feel pretty damn good about holding a raffle...
---
But that point aside you cant just trash someone elses way of living because you dislike it. while it may be spam to you other people dont think its spam.
You shouldn't have to sit through spam, other people shouldnt feel like they cant hold raffles if they arent popufur.
People should have the option to filter what they feel is spam.
And in regards to the admins not doing anything, maybe its time they should do something.
In regards to the raffle journal spamming - dA has a set of options where you get to watch somebody for their artwork, but not for their journals, for example - now I don't know how easy/difficult it would be for the admins to make a change like this but it might go a small ways to fixing this kind of situation - but un-watching someones journals doesn't protect you from YCH image spam.
I can't defend people spamming raffles/whatnot just to become 'popufur' - that kind of thing needs to be stamped on because it's neither a healthy or wholesome aspiration - and popularity really isn't all it's cracked up to be anyway.
So I think the FA admin guys could do more to make the site more business-friendly, but users need to be responsible too - and they need to get a slap on the wrists and be put back in line when things get out of hand.
right now the new rules are are creating a massive amount of negativity towards everyone but those who consider YCH and Raffles spam.
I've been complaining about the constant spam of YCH and the raffle journals (mostly YCH) because it DOES prevent new artists from becoming known!
Tbh I was thinking of just doing an art raffle were the only requirement is you provide the reference to the character you want drawn in your comment. I mean, you're still getting recognized by other people if the person who won reposts their prize.
I haven't done any free art raffles in a looong time because I don't want people to watch me just because they want the free drawing, I want them to be there because they actually enjoy my work and the raffle itself would probably just be a 'thank you for the support' or Christmas raffle anyway. I guess I'm neutral, I usually nuke journals anyway.
First it was banning good Android apps without even talking to the devs of said apps.
Now this without even getting feedback from the artists for suggestions as to a replacement to this.
It was a great way for people to get free art and for the artist to get noticed. It should have just been approached differently due to the fact that so many peopel think they have a say in what someone does with 1111$
No one puts a gun to anyones head to make the rule that one must watch to enter the raffle.
NOR is anyone forced to watch you
so oh no 4 people out of 20 only watched you for a chance at free shit.
that other 16? still support you and probably just didn't know of you sooner
IMAGINE THAT
I understand people want to just get the word out and that's why they relink the journal, but I get so frustrated because sometimes I want to participate, but I dont like that I have to shamelessly advertise for someone I'm basically taking advantage of for free artwork if I decide to be involved in one of these.
I'm sure not everyone is happy about this, but this is a rule I've been hoping to see for a while, so just wanted to say thank you for updating the rules regarding this
Obviously people arent happy and there are other ways to reduce spam without negatively affecting others.
If you have an idea or feel the need to let the admins know you are being negatively affected by the new rules, please come comment:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5280829/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12120739/
All I ask in there is a journal, posting a link to there to help spread the word about this raffle which supports a charity. No one is paying me anything, and I'm not asking for people to watch me in order to do it. I'm just trying to help out a great cause, and bring some light to it. So I want to make sure as I have three more weeks of this going on, and I need to know if it is indeed against the rules.
thats the same question people are having on leftover adoptables
Stupid $1111 raffle ene
i do not like this new change in rules
especially for auctions, like ych auctions if they are not reposted as reminders to the original the main auction post will become buried and forgotten. anyone who is looking for a ych auction to bid in wont be able to see them and wont be interested if the post they see is nothing to do with an auction but has a link to one in its description, nobody interested in an auction will click that post in hopes that there will be a hidden auction link in it!
hardly anybody reads journals! its extremely helpful though!! when i check my journals and i see "raffle" i click it and hey look! a raffle i never would have known about but i would love to enter! good thing they posted that journal! and the journals i don't want to read, which is most of them i simply delete and hey look! their gone! how about that!
so instead for raffles how about people say "you dont HAVE to but it would be really appreciated if you made a journal linking to this raffle" so its not a rule, and people like me still get the chance to join a raffle we wouldnt have known about otherwise if people feel like posting a journal.
and what about WIPS? those are slightly modified pictures that will be posted more than once. they will later be put into scraps but when they are uploaded they wont be, theyl still show up on the front page, theyl still me in peoples messages.
to REALLY get rid of most of spam on this site I have a better idea, how about making the rule "NO PORN PERMITTED", the site will REALLY be empty then! and people who are sick of seeing all the mounds of porn dont have to see it anymore!! C:
im just saying, if their goal is to cut down on the spam then thats definitely the way to go that would get the best results for having a spam free site, no more porn spam
so how i see it, in the same sense that raffle journals are spam, porn is spam
could be, with how their selectively choosing things to ban. still i wouldnt want them banning more and making it even harder for me to enjoy this site and make money (since this IS my only job)
Approved.
Most artists do raffles for page views/new watchers...so a good percentage like I said...has been ruined for those wanting free art.
Less artists doing the raffles means in essence...less chances for people who truly want art but can't afford to buy it.
Not many artists are going to draw free art unless they are getting something out of it.
UGH
THANK YOU OMG THANK
SOME kind of "marketplace" function or feature is far overdue. Maybe as simple as an additional rating level tag beyond Adult. Some way of marking submissions as being for the promotion of sales. People with no interest in YCHs or commissions or auctions or raffles or whatever can simply set their rating filter to exclude that 'rating.'
Obviously a better option would be more complicated than that, something where journals could also be filtered out if they're sales/promotions, some means of searching specifically for sales-related posts for those who DO want to participate in those kinds of things.
We're all aware of the significant difficulties in adding or changing ANYTHING about site function given the age and fragility of the site's code, but surely there can be SOMETHING done without being too much of a monumental overhaul. Really, anything to give some kind of distinction to sales-related posts, and allow users to specifically seek or block those as they prefer, would surely be an incredibly appreciated update, and improve the day-to-day site experience for a whole lot of users who are bothered one way or the other by this.
something i REALLY want on this site is categories in users galleries, just for more organization, like on DA. we could make a folder in our galleries, name it "sketches" or "WIPS" and put all of our sketches/wips in it so they arent taking up the main submissions on our user pages. I know theres a "scraps" but most people use it as a garbage type thing and hardly anyone actually checks peoples scraps, plus i find it pretty rude to put something that was done for someone else in the scraps.
these 2 things need to be done for this site
sure it may be importain to increas the amount of space that is avalible for people to use for posts of all the alloted kinds, but it is also equilly, if not more so, important to keep the rest of the hardware and code up to date as well.
jsut think if oter social media sites chose to be this way, then they would have disappeared by now because the entire world is trying to access every last part of it at once. or if search engines started stipulating that kinds of things it can and cannot search for because of internet traffic becoming too high with the ever changing data always having to be updated to the servers of that search engine. we would be relying several differned engines to look up information on one thing if that were their way of thinking.
the whole world is constently changing and trying to dig your heals into the ground by trying not to change the way something works is only going to drag you along kicking and screeming the whole way through.
BAMBAMBADAM!
*thinks for a moment*
*goes to shadowy unbiased corner and peers from the darkness*
Seriously, thank you a lot. I was about to start unwatching everyone who spam like this.
Neat. :<
Do not put anything in your journal that would encourage a user to directly create a new journal, etc.
It's one thing to share what cool stuff your friends are up to or to help someone out of your own free will; however, it's different if you share content BECAUSE you were encouraged to do so directly by the journal or that user.
There were too many comments for me to go through just figured I'd get the answer straight from someone.
Thanks for the info.
(Source of that picture: http://kiahl.deviantart.com/art/dar.....g-87-344446260)
I mean, those annoying raffles... I like participating, but that clause...
I find it interesting how selective the mods/admins are at FA lately. Back in August I wanted to hold a raffle for movie tickets for my watchers. I contacted a mod asking about it as I don't want to break any T.o.S (since they change oh so frequently.) They replied "We do not permit any raffles involving real money. You'll find the rule on this in the code of Conduct." I gladly took this info, thanked the mod for informing me and helping me out and I ended up doing something else! Yet with this raffle of $1111 is knowingly causing such large traffic and heavy spam- it is still staying up even though it is apparently against the rules. Now I am not saying "boo omg I wanted to do this /tantrum" but I just find it very inconsistent.
Another inconsistency would be the repost of YCH auctions. Over the last month I have seen plenty of users repost the same image and nothing got taken down. It just seems like the mods are slacking on their job of monitoring or they just don't care until their servers get overload. Which brings me to my next point.
SERVERS- I have read skimming through the thousand comments above that bandwidth is apparently an issue. BUY a better computer, get better internet, do something to help keep the site running and stop being so laggy. I understand that high traffic and "spam" of journals and deviations causes a problem, but FA as a whole could certainly do with some upgrades. I mean, you get free money from people to host banners which most people use ad-block anyways so word of mouth is super important.
There is the end to my mini rant. Did that make any sense? Probably not and I expect it to be covered quickly by the comments.
I understand the money raffles. Everybody wants money, and that's why everybody and their mother got in on the $1111 thing. It's not the first money raffle nor will be the last (as people always try to get away with things). Giving away free items (ps4, action figure collection, etc) is also a pain. It's good those are eliminated, especially since those are not usually hosted by artists (unless they are con artists).
I also get the YCH auctions, as multiple pics of the same thing can be an eyesore.
Look Fender, I like it here on FA. FA is my favourite art site. Can't an exception be made for art raffles?
Now the image spamming I can understand why they's want to put a stop to that seeing that eats way server resources and bandwidth.
No, I don't want to see their "raffle" journal spam.
>no artists means no FA
Gee, really? So the entire community is built on making raffles and asking your watchers to spam? So we really do need a change there, if you can't see it.
Lets say you have 500 watchers and you want 600+, and you advertise a raffle your message will only get to those 500 and that's it. Now asking them to post a journal the people that watch them see it as well now there's maybe and possibly check it out now there is maybe a 1000 or more that know about you. THe logic behind the spam is sound, just when it gets abused is the problem. Now say there is a bulletin board being used anyone that interested in free stuff ect will be willing to look there and what not and artists popularity and watcher count will rise simply because there is a single place to advertise yourself that anyone can check out.
Yes I know FA has its banner ad system, but if everyone started using that could you imagine how congested it would get you'd be able to spend hours on FA and never see the same ad twice, and you like end up missing the majority of them, so the banner ad system isn't a viable alternative either. Not to mention most artist here can barely afford next month rent let the added monthly cost of a banner ad. A community bulletin board of sorts would even be able to generate FA much needed income as well say like $1 for a basic ad post or $2 for ad with an image.
Regarding the ad system, you're wrong there, are you pay for X amount of views/clicks. (disclaimer: am not sure) Which means that regardless of *who* sees your ad, it'll always be at least those X amount of people.
As a writer with no visually artistic talent, being able to use a slightly modified version of the same image to better advertise a contest or something of the sorts has been of great use to me. I can't exactly commission a new image for each reposted advertisement or I'd be using up a lot more money than it's worth, but I'd still want something eye-catching to grab people's attention, which is why sticking with a slightly modified version of the same picture, with the understanding that the previous advertisements should be taken down, work best for me.
Bottom line is, what are authors to do when trying to grab attention yet having neither the talent nor the income to spew out a brand new image with each and every advertisement? This seems more than slightly unfair to the non-visually talented sort x.x
As is, I'm starting to look more seriously into SoFurry and my old DA account. I don't want to give up on FA but every step 'forward' they've been taking lately has seemed more and more like several steps backward x.x
(I have seen people who upload the same picture EVERY HOUR to promote their...whatever.)
Trust me, my own journals were flooded with advertisements for those monetary raffles that was going around. Maybe it's just because I've been involved with the internet since way back when html chat was the big thing and spam and chain letters were just a regular sight in your email, but it was so easy to just fish out the journals I was actually interested in, which were like, two every fifty or so journals, and then just nuke the rest. Same with submissions. Oh, I spent a whole second or second and a half seeing the same image twice. Okay, tab the ones I'm actually interested in, and Nuke! All gone!
So we basically have to "thank" those people who DON'T know when it's too much -_-
I even stopped reading journals on FA alltogether. I just nuke them without selecting - because...I am truly annoyed by browsing stupid spam raffles - doesn't matter to me how much work it is to select them. I have better things to do with my time.
But maybe with this new rules I can take a look at them again - and also see signal boosts i'm interested in. (It isn't forbidden to freely promote an other artist in your own journal~) I hope people make use of that - instead of raffle-journals nobody reads anyway.
Honestly, if anything, it's a lot like ObamaCare. Great idea, great intent, but horribly executed for lack of taking the time to think of a better way.
And FA is relativ easy to get startet. If you post good artwork - people come OVER TIME. And if you come to FA as a new artist, depending on commissions RIGHT AWAY - you did something wrong in your life anyway.
But to be true - i only speak of visual artists. Don't know how it is with writers.
So yes, DA's looking better and better, especially with all the numerous features FA keeps promising but never gets around to.
But besides that, yeah - i see the point. As a writer it must be nearly impossible here to get known here. (The porn topic however is not a problem of FA alone - it's the fandom who only care for porn it seems) And yes again - the problem on FA is not the constant strange rule making, the problem is that they DON'T care for new features to make the site better (so many good suggestions alone in the comments of this journal) or fix current problems. The list is so long right now and keeps getting longer :c
Not even the simplest things are done, like Submission Folders.
I really like FA - but it's getting harder and harder here, since other sites get better and better (And yes, i LOVE Deviantart <3)
Honestly trying to understand. I don't want to break any rules, but I don't want to cut off my proverbial arm and be driven away from a site I like so much when it turns out there was no need to begin with >.< If that makes sense?
Auction artists are the worst god damn things ever, I swear. Putting a limit on how annoying they can be is a much, much needed change.
Praise fucking Jesus.
Auction artists are fun, but it's more-so the ones that take a template and auction the same template over and over, making only minor changes for the tail. They then take said template and just color it in, and there you go: that's your new submission.
I guess those aren't strictly auction artists, but I don't know what to call them for sure. I know tons of auction artists do it, but I guess it's not true that they all do it, nor is it true that every auction artist is the worst thing in the world.
I guess uninspired artists make more sense, but that is a bit vague.
So Streaming notice submissions are okay as long as they are deleted once the streaming is done.
Yet at the same time with any other advertisement, you are not allowed to delete and repost.
Isn't it the SAME EXACT THING? As long as only 1 unique YCH/auction/commission advert is in the gallery at a time...still falls under the rule of not having multiple submissions of the same thing/slightly altered.
This hurts commissioners and people who are new to this site A LOT. I think the rule for submission adverts should simply be changed to that of the Streaming adverts...deleted once the auction is done, and only 1 unique advert in the gallery at a time (delete to repost).
As far as I can tell, this rule change doesn't affect standard commission advertisements; only auction-style things like YCHs. This may prohibit situations like opening for commissions on Monday, then trying to plug the same slots on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and so on through new submissions, but an admin would need to clarify that.
Same with auctions/other adverts. Someone may do a YCH auction once every month or 2 and may only post the reminder twice. Others may post it every few days and do a new one every 2 weeks. The frequency can be very much the same as someone who posts stream adverts. I only have 2 people on my watch list that posts YCH posts, and dozens of people who post stream adverts (all but 1 have the same static stream advert picture).
The nature of these submission adverts are pretty much one and the same...the cause is the only difference.
What one commenter pointed out though is the simple fact that there are many users who use ad-blockers, not just for convenience and to cut down on lag, but to avoid the NSFW ads. There are a huge number of users who tend to use them as well, and honestly I'd have one on my phone with how crappy they treat the poor gadget.
'Mature Advertising Info
We do not accept advertisements for mature sites any longer.'
~http://help.furaffinity.net/article.....vertising.html
:/ I still see very provocative work in ads nowadays. But I guess we need to use the 'SFW' button to switch those off xD
if you guys are gonna make rules like this then why not make a report button?
you guys take long enough to respond to other things as it is (i've had a trouble ticket opened nearly a year now) so there's no point in making such rules if you guys won't crack down on it and actually do something about it and there's no way to let you know about it
You just solved the whole problem right here. You wonderful genius you. Sadly, with the time and effort it would take to install such a program, I painfully doubt it will ever be put into place (eg they Still haven't gotten around to fixing the Search bug), but it's still such a wonderful and awesome idea.
Now can you solve the problem of world hunger? >.>
(Nah, not really, but could you imagine? Heh, I can't.)
"Oh, look, I just got banned, whoops!"
*Hits delete button*
"Awesome, I can use my username again!"
second, Don't respond to me like a smartass. Makes you way less of a man and less intelligent. You want to make yourself look smart. Respond smart.
And you were the one that suggested deleting banned accounts. My point still stands, aside from the fact the banned user will have to wait for the site to clean up old banned accounts.
Regarding being a smartass: "Pot, meet kettle."
Also I didn't say that banned people can remove their account. I said that users can delete their own accounts(a.k.a. people who move from one account to another). The admins can delete banned accounts after the final verdict is picked for the faith of the account. You might want to read carefully what I said before commenting.
Next time, try to think before you comment and try to act like an asshole. Only makes you look like the asshole.
The amount of accounts in our database really isn't the problem. It's the database's structure.
You suggested removing (perm-)banned accounts in your first comment.
This would mean that, when a banned account is removed, the username is accessible again. It doesn't really matter if it's accessible within hours, months, or years of the ban, the result is that a banned user can just register under the same name again and any record of why the account was banned would be gone. That's not desirable.
Drop the "You're an asshole" act. Consider that a warning.
Explain the database structure, since Im confused. Since this journal sounds like a way to avoid large amount of spam and save on the sites database. Which why I sugguested either deleting/blanking out accounts. Even if deleting the accounts isn't an option, blanking out everything in them seems better to go with. dead account maybe dead, but its still receiving data from everytime someone posts a journal or submission that the person they are watching. Unless its a blank account which just sits there. So with 335k accounts and Im pretty sure a lot of them aren't blank are still receiving data.
All Im saying.
Account in the database are all linked by the username. We'd have to do a database-wide search on that username (including text fields) to find everything. Then deleting that stuff would result in orphaned notes, comments, etc.
I'm pretty sure that would be a larger load on the system than leaving the account in there.
"Wiping a banned or inactive account isn't an option. Why?
"Oh, look, I just got banned, whoops!"
*Hits delete button*
"Awesome, I can use my username again!"
In itself is quite rude and disrespectful. It comes off as being a smartass and an being an ass. After that it will automatically seem that way from that post on. Why I went there. If it wasn't said as such I would of talked about it like Im doing now.
Well I was just saying. If not possible then, its not possible. Was just trying to find ways to make the site a better place then more trouble.(sure in the hell sick of the slow note system, can tell you that.) Why I tried to suggest.
/sarcasm
as example they have to write a short story about the pic they want or give a well described idea.
A question:
Modifications of the same image are not permitted.
Does this include work that has received critique from users in order to be improved, thus it is modified and resubmitted?
examples?
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12080118/ to http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12106587/
THANK YOU SO MUCH!! /allcaps
love you forever long time :3
That's still considered reposting an image, and as such, spam. Please don't.
All timed events are currently only allowed one initial posting. Reminder postings require the points listed at the top now. :3
But admins already have a ton of stuff on their plates. I'm not sure why you feel that a non-admin is not allowed to help out provided they are capable of giving correct information. There have been quite a few like me spending their time to help answer questions in this thread. The admins can only do so much, and this is a community site where we try and help each other out instead of making it difficult for everyone. ^_^;;;
I can somewhat agree with you on con photos. The rules currently state, I believe, that only 6 similar pictures can be uploaded, I thiiink in reference to a single event. I can agree that collectively, there have started to be so many conventions and so many people with access to a camera, that there may need to be another adjustment to the con photos rule soon. There are of course still some underlying issues, but those that are more subjective are much harder to implement. As simple and focused as these two rules were, it's amazing how many people think it applies to a lot of unrelated stuff.
Sadly there just don't seem to be enough mature and level-headed people to properly sustain the volunteer system. Many of those potential volunteers already do things like run cons and local events. Many other candidates simply don't have the time to put much of a dent in things. It would be nice to have more admins taking care of the site, including entire moderation teams whose job is to handle one specific type of ticket without overstepping boundaries, but it's not as easy as wishing for it. :( I mean, I'd probably make an okay candidate but I don't want to be obligated to spend hours each day on a specific task. I have enjoyed my time helping out in this journal but that's because it was voluntary fun and not an obligation for me. XD
I believe this was taken care of due to a mix of being a quickly growing problem and being a fairly straight forward fix. Other issues are very subjective and those take a lot of internal polish to get to a point that will accomplish the goal without making things hard to interpret. As simple as this new set of rules in, many people had a hard time interpreting them. Imagine trying to fully explain new limitations on things like photographs? What constitutes a photograph that isn't needed here, where community is a big part of things. What constitutes too many photographs when some members like fursuiters can only participate with photos. I do think that, once again, such things have passed the original scope of the site, so limitations should certainly be applied, but variety is also nice, so where do you draw the line? What about images that spread the word about retail goods? About goods commissioned from another furry? About 'hey this is what I look like so you know who I am when I go to a local event'?
Things just aren't simple despite seeming simple. :3
maybe show the newest, and have a button "show older comments", and of course let people have the option to always show all comments in their user settings
The only limitation on streaming notices that I am aware of is that a user can only post one submission+journal every 24 hours.
The YCH is usually a sketch with a predefined post. Uploading minor variations of it would be considered spam. Uploading completely different images with a link to the YCH in the description is okay, though.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5220358/
That line:
-Link to this in a journal on your page (you don't have to! I do really appreciate it if you signal boost for me though~)
Is no longer allowed under these rules, I'm afraid.
"Journals and submissions which require users to repost or link to the raffle/contest in order to enter are NO LONGER PERMITTED."
Saying "you don't have to!" (even in brackets) means it's not a requirement just a very emphasised request.
Ultimately it would be up to the admin/mod and most of them have rather terrible days having to deal with us all the time; so it probably would be deleted.
Just saying "you don't have to" somewhere in the journal doesn't suddenly make it okay to tell users to promote the journal.
When you say, "its okay to encourage, but not allowed to require"
Does that mean someone holding a raffle could say "You don't have to share this to enter, but i would be appreciated if you did"
Because a few comments above, I believe they stated that asking is also not allowed.
I'm terribly confused.
Things to keep in mind, but I do suggest keeping in good standing with commissioners and encouraging them to repost images done for them into their galleries. :3
Users are allowed to do so of their own accord if they wish to, but you can't have anything within the journal that suggests or encourages folks to do it. For the sake of an example:
1.) "I'm holding a contest/raffle! *insert instructions for entering here* Good luck!" <- Perfectly fine.
2.) "I'm holding a contest/raffle! *insert instructions for entering here* You don't have to share/link back to this journal to enter, but that would be nice. Good luck!" <- Not okay because it encourages the journal spam.
Basically, you have to rely on participants wanting to spread it by word of mouth of their own volition rather than ask them to do it.
Hope that helps clarify things for ya.
So, with the behaviour you described, no problems.
Let's imagine I have a raffle going on. If I would make 10 different pictures, just for this raffle to be advertised. Would I be allowed to post one of them, mention the raffle in the description, and later post the next image, mentioning the raffle again in the description, and so on? Or maybe even have a line of text on the picture mentioning the raffle?
Would that be allowed?
As this journal says:
If you want to post a reminder, you can do so in the description of a new submission with a unique and new image (NOT a repost or variant of the original)
Only the "Post a journal about this raffle to participate / get a extra entry" kind of things are not allowed.
Thank you.. *hug*
Not that i'm going to held a raffle or anything x)
Most of the young people taking part in this now infamous raffle clearly don't understand the legalities involved. One, raffles, give-aways and other lotteries are typically illegal in most states without the proper lawyers and licensing. Two, it is illegal to take part in illegal raffles, etc. And three, one has to pay taxes on the winnings and without the proper real-life info from the contest holder, you can get yourself into huge trouble with the Feds if you do not claim your money properly.
These new rules needed to be done and also, that raffle journal in question needs to come down.
What about slightly different variants of the same image? Like a clean and then nsfw version, or other such versions where only one thing changes? Are those not permitted, as well?
Nope
Reposting the same image, or a modified variants of the same image, is NOT PERMITTED.
I will say though, if I had a time machine, I would stamp out YCH auctions before they became as popular as they are today. :P It's too late to completely disallow them, but it may have been possible a few years ago...
Anyway, love you all, I hope I was of some help to many people. Remember: Promoting artists is allowed and encouraged, requiring promotion as a barrier for contest entry or otherwise rewarding it is NOT allowed.
Raffles are no longer permitted to have "pimp this journal to participate / get extra tickets" as a requirement.
Okay so, I think FA should encourage ads to be clean and tame. Tame fetishes are still potentially fine as long as they are not NSFW at a glance. Anything above this should be given a different flag, and be linked to an option in the user's profile that is ~separate~ from the mature filter. Just because I'm fine looking at porn in my inbox doesn't mean I want to see it all over the ads.
I leave ads unblocked to keep informed on various cool furry things, but the blatant porn-porn-porn ads kinda get on my nerves, too.
Great news I got sick of those a long time ago x.x
Just don't repost the same image.
You can also link to your current YCH in other submissions you upload, or in journals. The only thing we're not allowing is someone uploading the same submission over and over again.
Furaffinity lacks of special features for this new kind of commission (that I personally consider as killing creativity btw) but when you get spammed everyday by dozen of YCH going on at the same time you just stop even looking at them...
When you enter an auction or YCH and put a price on it you still get the notification that someone made an higher bid than you so they still get a reminder.
Someone just ban me already so that I have a legitimate reason to migrate to Inkbunny. -_-*
Two pet peeves with the same stone :D
Now I'll have 99% less journals in my inbox. :D
Praise Jesus Christ and all that is holy!
Case in point, if someone decides a contest that just requires people to enter by simply making a guess at something, or solving a puzzle, or responding to the post with a random number, etc., without mention of adding their names to a watchlist, or "pimping" the person holding the contest, you can't really call that spamming at all.
I agree that there are some people, in fact many people here, trying to make a name for themselves, and they will do whatever they can to get that recognition. But you cannot hope to silence everyone this way.
If someone wants to offer $1,000 cash, for example, wouldn't it be much easier, and make more sense, to have it be a general announcement on the front page of FA - and do away with the need for a journal altogether?
There is no rule against such raffles. You can't hold a raffle where someone is required to post a journal about it. That's all.
Also, we're not FA's public announcement machine.
"Also, we're not FA's public announcement machine."
That's funny. So, you have no means to make public announcements, is that what you're telling us here today?
I'd be extremely careful with your wording from here on out.
What I meant to say is that it's not for a user's personal announcements.
This is what you're telling me. That FurAffinity really has no passion whatsoever to bring to light news that we, as furries, should be concerned about - unless it's something to do with the site in general.
Sorry, I see no sign of "affinity" when I read something like that.
I'm just saying the notification system at the top of the site is not for personal notifications.
You're really just putting words in my mouth now.
Since when does FA do a general announcement to help someone in need? I didn't see one single god-damned announcement about Hurricane Sandy last year, nor anything about helping the Philippines this past month after their typhoon struck. There's never been donation drives - oh sure, if it's someone
(It may make you feel good to do it, but at least be aware of the very-real crisis that America may be facing soon due to the amount of money that continues to leave the country. ^_^;;; We don't ALL need to go around supporting crisis-causes, even if they happen to be domestic. Such things can end up severely polarizing a group which is, in the end, not good for anyone. Let the community police itself on such things and come up with their own ideas.)
Now, let's recap:
Raffles that simply require someone to enter = allowed
Raffles that require someone to re-post to advertise raffle = forbidden
Raffles that require entry fee in legal tender = forbidden
People may be looking at this and thinking "what's the problem with a couple dozen-hundred spam journals coming from one raffle" without realising the number of notifications each of those journals then create.
Say a journal got just two entires that posted journals for it.... say one was me, that's 505 notifications due to my watchers.... now say the other one was zen, his journal alone would create 34,176 notifications.
That's just two people reposting a journal, the number of notifications grows extremely fast.
gotta love those public announcement journals
Again, could you guys REALLY think things through before making outlandish enforcements, PLEASE?
This rule only applies to:
Journals and submissions which require users to repost or link to the raffle/contest in order to enter
I gave all my art away. Never requiring watches or journals unless it was a raffle for another artist, then it was up to them.
I can no longer do this, and absolutely lost all drive to draw.... I want to find another site and find my drive again.
Its not spam to win if the artists are offering their time to provide free content to people out of kindness.
Its not spam to win if the host's of the contest/event are giving away *free* stuff to a winner and they are just making sure people are not just doing it without fully reading the rules.
Its just not right to have it written down that you cant do these things. I wont be surprised one tiny bit if you now lose more people who clear house and walk to sofurry or inkbunny or other sites just cause of this now.
Trade one spam for another. Nice.
I understand not "requiring" it to be necessary to enter, but you can't even say "you don't need to make a journal, but it would be appreciated?"
Also it would be nice to see some sort of system put into place that would allow a person to advertise when they are streaming or holding raffles and or ychs, if such a system were used it would likely eliminate majority of the spam. The banner ad system simply wouldn't work for something like that.
You hold a raffle journal and you don't list users to make a spam journal.
However, contestants who enter the raffle, make a spam journal on their own accord without being told to do so.
I've seen this too, but certainly not as out of hand as making it a requirement of entry.
Very very disappointed in the admins today.
I'm not an SQL database, after all!
Kind of stupid. But big surprise that FA just wants to make money, right? So why not screw over everyone who uses the site to make money that isn't using their overpriced advertisement system?
*shrug*
Loopholes, Loopholes everywhere, FA...
and what about the influx of popular journal MEMEs? are those included, or just raffle and YCH spam?
now i'm just confused ;n;
I follow the rule of no more then 3 of the same images of one thing, but I always delete them a little later... So instead of just making rules all the time, why can't we have a system develop where we have OFFICIAL groups that are easy to search for and make it easier for said groups the reach out to members...
FA is very stagnant, and it's difficult to find new artists, unless you stare at the front page all day.
Just saying. >:I
Well it would be cool if someone noticed this, but eh. Most likely not. xD
and meh, i've seen a few admins replying down here, they might catch it :) it'd be a great suggestion
would that be allowed?
thanks :D
Thank christ that shit is over with.
somebody drew a quick little bust shot for EVERYBODY who commented here
:U
1 pixel by 1 pixel; black and white only.
https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5271512/
because I have the no journals required?
I was planning on doing another sometime in the future for Christmas stories.
Look up FurAffinityFilter. You can filter out anything that says "Streaming" from your browsing experiene, as well as anything else!
What if instead I post the work in progress in scraps and than post the finial in the gallery for everyone to see would that be alright?
However, I think completely banning signal-boosting is a bit rash. Perhaps this issue needs further inspection.
I don't particularly understand the point of this, though... It's a harmless way for people to establish themselves in the art community, and if people don't want to read the journals, they could simply just nuke em. Not to mention, journals about raffles are often the only way i get to hear about raffles or auctions, etc, that arent being done by people i already watch.
A lot of artists got established this way, and its easy for them to be okay with this new system because they dont have to work at getting watchers as much anymore. It leaves all the newer artists in the dust.
Of course, I'm sure people will eventually invent some new ego-driven requirement for people to enter future raffles. And hey, if they do, I simply won't enter it. Fuck you! (not YOU personally of course). Just have people post a comment saying they're entering, post reference pics of their character, and details if applicable, and leave it at that for the entry. So yes, I very VERY much applaud this rule! *high five*
And yes, I just posted my own journal on the subject. XD
Those are not YOUR raffles. If someone refuses to accept a raffle entry unless participants do something first, it's THEIR problem.
so you're still safe as long as linking back a journal "pimping" out your journal isnt a requirement
really this whole thing is about cutting down on spam and that's all.. (though some of it may sound a bit extreme)
If your stuff is great then you will take off quick. If not, then it'll be slower. But spamming to get watchers is just ridiculous.
I've been on here 4+ years and I've gotten a decent following. Nothing spectacular, but that's understandable because compared to the people who do have double digit thousands of watchers my stuff is just so-so. But I didn't do any of that "watch me, to maybe get free art" bs. Solely on my talent and personality alone I did it (also with the help of people who dig and support what I do). And it feels great to know people really like the stuff I do.
But the more active I am, and with each new post. I gain more watchers. But that's because I do what I love. I don't do it for popularity. If people like my stuff and give me a watch then that's a plus~
Just do what you do because you love to. Not for attention. And likely down the line you'll get a build up of watchers that 'actually' like what you do. Not just because you 'made' them watch you to join in on a raffle/auction/what have you for something.
You don't need journal/submission spamming to do that. Calm yourselves. It's not the end of the world. You can always have friends pimp you out. No shame in that. Ha ha~
No spamming. That's all they're trying to accomplish with this. And I agree.
Most artists tend to post them up once in the gallery, and either move it to their scraps or delete it.
That and/or make a journal reminder for their watchers.
"What if we want to advertise all the current raffles going on?" -> "Post a journal about it."
^_^
I mean, shit, there is a filter developed for FA to block things out.
Just the other day, I saw someone post about seven different chapters for a story.
And no one complained.
People don't always making reminders in the gallery.
Hell most artist I watch seem to do it in journals.
Or I might just not notice the images they are so called 'spamming'
I wasn't either.
I see artists, writers, and commissioners upload piece after piece.
It's just a mass upload.
I had a friend who complained about an artist they watched upload YCH's, adopts, and auctions, so he said it was all spam and unwatched the artist.
I know some people who assume because stuff is sent in a bulk it automatically makes it spam.
People who don't see initial auction submissions or who intend to bid later are more easily attracted/reminded if there's a submission pointing to it. Why the hell would they look at something that's not even representative of what they'd be getting? Way to undercut business for a lot of artists.
I have an image in my gallery where the characters is in a night background, and another image where the character is in a morning background.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11779434/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11779404/
Are these still okay or not?
So, you are completely fine. :3
(concerning background change, WIPs and streaming adverts)
This is all I wanted to know. Ended up just Crtl F "stream" and I knew I 'd find it eventually....
This question is for someone in charge
QUESTION: The way the rules are wrote right now you can not post a raffle requesting people to "pimp" your raffle in a journal. But it does not say anywhere that a user may not post a journal advertising the raffle if they feel like. Not being required to, but posting it because they want their watchers to see it to.
I do believe that the core problem was that it was a rule and that caused the "mass spamming" or so thats what it seems from this change of rules anyways. And it is becoming a big deal because people are still posting journals to advertise for the person anyways and people are starting fights because they are immature and telling people they cant post them because its against the rules.
Can we get some clarification there?
...but the second one??
how are auction/YCH artists supposed to work under these contricting conditions?? how are we to get the word out to new fresh faces if we cant repost in any way.
journals really only get seen by people that ALREADY watch you, so we cant just spam our journals. what would be the point?
the only way to get new eyes on your picture is to repost reminders.
rules keep being made that prevent us from making buisness, and i feel like were slowly being shoved off a cliff here
perhaps a more benificial rule that would cut the spam AND still work with the artists would be put a time requirement on a repost. like, an artist can only repost a reminder every 24 hours.
because forcing us to use a image thats potentialy tottaly unrelated to the item were selling just wont generate any interest or curiosity. therefore killing our traffic completely.
please reconsider that second rule, i dont even know how id ever be able to make any sales with these new rules
However, you can bet that the justification will be "FA is not here for the explicit purpose of you making money, it's here for sharing artwork." Which was similar justification to what was used when the flood-control rules were implemented a while back (those interfered with auctions, because you then couldn't bid properly at the very end to make time limits). They basically just said "FA is not an auction site, go use fur buy or ebay."
and could just add it to the description of a picture that you upload as another footer/aside. or something of that nature. and I think they orignally had a time limit like, you can post a reminder once a day, but I never seen anyone holding to that, and I get tired of trekking throught "omglookmoneyraffleclick click' 'fursuitrafleclickcliccoclkckl' 'ych'''ych'ych'ych' to try and find journals that ...are something other than people trying to get watches/
and I rambled at you...ugh sorry
auctions will be desperate to stay alive here on FA if your only allowed to post them ONE time and never allowed to garner further attention
i know ive found auctions that i liked in this way, and im sure im not the only one that would say i ONLY look at art that has a curious looking thumbnail. and having to advertise your art in a small little link in an artist comments. that ONLY works if
1) someone reads through your artist comments and sees it
2) if they even feel compelled to look at the link
and 3) if the first picture was even good enough to get looked at at all
this really only plays to the especialy skilled artists whom can get lots of eyes right away.
if its anything its biased to the popular furries
1) someone reads through your artist comments and sees it Then just put down the Link and an explanation like "Remnder YCH at this Link:[ ]"
2) if they even feel compelled to look at the link If the image is compelling then they will look
and 3) if the first picture was even good enough to get looked at at all So you are trying to auction off low quality art? You will just have to work harder.
this really only plays to the especialy skilled artists whom can get lots of eyes right away.
if its anything its biased to the popular furries
You do reasonably skilled porn, but you don't have a lot of color handling, and you have a very rough finish. Work on your deficiencies, and improve your quality, and learn how to market, especially within the new rules because apparently the new rules are quite popular with the audiences. But also remember, no one owes you a living, Youneed to work hard for it.
you feel how you want scotty
Buuuut I'm sure that a heck of a lot of code and thus probably not something practical that could be implemented here.
Ill say this raffle/free art spams made me unwatch people not watch them..i dont want free art beyond a gift once in a blue moon and the raffles were getting completely out of control..it was becoming more than half my journals a day and thats just excessive. YCHs are another thing in general but limiting reposts of the same image is appreciated. I have nothing against YCH auctions but really spamming a reminder daily with the same images was to much.
I encourage artists to look into improving, mastering their skills and if you put that time in..you will improve and gain watchers like myself who actually WANT to BUY your art not beg for freebies or cheap art. You WANT buyers/commissioners like me who want to pay you well for your art..you dont want the whiny free free free!! crowd trust me.
Anyway, okay. Not that much of a loss I guess. Though, the spam of this sort is not that big of a deal, to me. I simply /don't look at it if it bugs you/ is my way of doing things. I mean, a lot of us have to accidentally look at some of more potent fetishes with little choice in the matter. Considering some of us still want to see all ratings of art.
I personally that should be tweaked the most. A certain filter that's not an ad on by another service.
Luckily though, I'm able to use the almighty scroll bar to not look at it, as with the spam journals. All it takes is glancing over it or hitting "nuke".
I didn't really hold too many of those raffles in the past, so oh well.
The YCH thing is turning out to be an issue for some of us though. It's hard to hook people in who don't know about artists that may very well need the money. As a lot know, this is the only income many of us get. Journals only hook people who already watch you, (which a lot of us don't have many at all, and a small percentage of watchers actually buy commissions.)
A lot of rules seem to be just suppressing our ability to even have business. It's not too hard to notice that the time you post does make a difference here either. So posting at a poor time can make you end up with nothing. For instance, I notice that my morning hours read a lot less people online compared to my late evening hours.
So, say if someone posted a YCH for something they really needed cash for.
Post it at the wrong time and got little views and no bites due to poor timing and no right to repost.
It's basically saying "lol oh well too bad because it annoys me when I have to glance over it for a half a second. -Forgets how to delete submissions-"
All it takes is simply not looking or deleting what you don't want to see here, rather than stamping many artists down to work under very limited restrictions. Especially for the artist who barely has watchers. Which by the way, is hard to accomplish getting even 100. Probably 10 of those will be buyers, if LUCKY.
I also hope for reconsideration on the second rule.
Halo is a level-headed artist with reasoned business thought. She does YCH, adopts (both auction and set price), commissions, and is not vested singularly in just YCH. Even with that diversity, she, as an artist, is hindered by the rules...on an art site.
So even if there is something coming "down the pipeline" for auctions, premade things like adopts for a set price would need to be covered as well. (Another artist I know does preposes for a set price on a collage...and they can't repost...and it's not an auction.) In the meantime...the artist has to scratch and flounder, with no time to prepare for this change.
Some artists will swim...some will sink.
To those that say "This is an art site I come to look on and artists post on, not a business site," Art IS a business. Yes, it's posted for you to see, and for enjoying, but if nobody funds the artists, if they can't promote getting you their art, there will BE no art! Not everything can be a hobby.
(My apologies to you, Halo, for piggybacking your comment.)
Also, glad you agree, as well as many other people here in comments.
The only people who disagree seem to mainly not be artists or they don't use either option.
You're very welcome, Halo. I'm glad!
I do. I can see some of the points made, but currently their isn't a better system. Really, if a reminder is deleted, all that remains on the server is a placemarker that something was there. It can't take up much room. (I'm not sure how servers work, but that's my understanding.) I can see the journals being an inconvenience, but think of them like commercials on a TIVO ™. They get zipped past if people don't want to see them.
Artists don't exist solely for the enjoyment of others unless all they do is draw for a hobby and for enjoyment. Most use it as income, albeit usually a smaller amount. If every artist who was impacted financially by these rules stopped making art, there wouldn't be much posted here.
It comes down to "inconvenienced watchers vs. the artists they watch". Without the much-desired filters for journals, selectively-watching submissions / journals, or different "feeds" for such things in notifications, what are the artists supposed to do?
I got my fair share of the $1111 journals. I opened one, saw the event, and decided not to enter. I ignored the rest. I can click journals to select and delete. I don't have to open them all. I can't view streams...I ignore / delete. I see YCH things I wouldn't be entering...same thing. People say their inboxes are getting full...they watched the artist. They watch enough artists, their inboxes will get full. That's what happens.
There needs to be a sensible compromise until something is set up for the artists, with their input, to help them.
Hell yeaaa.
This is horrible for artists that make a living off of this stuff.
As a site it has to cater to everyone if it wants to stay alive. Like some other sites have instead of making rules against things, have created other ways for artists to be seen so they dont have to do what the site doesnt like.
My most faved items and things that get folks to even look at my works are never, and will never, be the pieces I spend the most time and care on, or look the best. It's whatever someone can jerk it to, period.
Wont people just instead of making a rule for "pimping it" just now instead make it where its a side things like.
"So the more watcher/entries I get, the better the prize will be" thus just making people want to post the raffle anyways just like this. And there isnt a rule against that right now either
all the freaking raffle journals was getting on my nerves, cause some of them, reasonable, some...wayyy not reasonable.
the YCH Thing.... eh.... I think if they didn't upload reminders all the damned time it wouldn't bug me but I do get tired of seeing them.
I'm glad you took it up and made those rules
Nah, I'm just kidding, although reading through these comments I realy wish I had while I still had the chance.
Oh well, I guess I'll realy have to step up my game now.
Those who buy into it, then complain, are experiencing buyer's remorse.
Those who buy into it and try to take advantage of it will experience the winner's curse.
Those who buy into it without attaching a lot of baggage or value, get the most out of it.
Those who don't buy into it, but don't complain either, lose nothing.
As the saying goes: "If it seems stupid, but it works, then it isn't stupid."
And if it didn't work, people wouldn't do it.
A friend said, "It's also about as shallow as a mud puddle."
Granted. But at the end of the day, the artist who may or may not have been the source of this drama still has 4k watchers. So long as they don't act like a dick and play things straight, that's 4000 potential streams of income.
That's good for the site, good for them, and good for the fandom in general. Just because it seems shallow, doesn't mean it can't be developed into something much deeper.
Finally, it's just yet another event in the growth of Fur Affinity. The admins have been unaware of the potential for havoc that this sort of marketing could cause the site, but now they know. And they've taken action.
Appropriate action? That's debatable.
We'll just have to see how the rules evolve.
Fair enough, and good correction.
However, that doesn't invalidate, nor disprove, any of my points, it just shifts the focus.
It means that instead of creating art, Krispup is paying for art. And now 4000+ people know he's got plenty of disposable income.
Ohh yea.... The other advertising was via journals. Now it is only via paying FA.
Hmm... imagine that....
*flips table angrily*
these raffles are for people who are less fortunate.....for those who want to snag possible free art
so you are essentially saying your site only caters to those with lots of money.....it does not look like spam to me
and why are you guys not taking the time and MINIMUM effort it takes to make a raffle tab, or enforce tags.....or hell make a thing that says "block new journals" or something
im not a professional in HTML programming but it does not seem like it is that hard to do
I love this site and think MOST of the admins are pretty on-the-level but it looks to me that you guys really do not want to work to make this site what it USED to be
Exactly. These rules blow..as I said to Neer, people will suffer because a handful of twits are too lazy to take the time to delete a few submissions/journals or unwatch people.
I mean it does not take too long to program a tab for raffles......or just add a button that lets you block journals if you don't want to see them
a lot of raffles are a good way for artist to get more business and watchers
Thanks FA, for simply abolishing your main form of User/Business growth without putting in a contingent alternative...
Now, with that being said, might I suggest an alternative construct that would allow a direct, compartmentalized compromise? one that will make all your users happy? (much more than your current raging mob that's bound to react sour.)
OH! And is this a comment that will ever have a response? or do I have to donate oodles of cash to get a voice here?
But if you are dead set to the title "Passive-Aggressive", then I do admit that the last line is rather just that. But then again... emotions set aside, it is true...
"If you don't like what you're seeing, move along! Don't dawdle and poke at how your not liking what your seeing, if you're annoyed at the journal's do what any sensible person would do... ignore it and keep on keeping on. I don't see why there is such a problem with all of this, unless they are concerned about server over-usage, and in that case they must acknowledge that concern."
Now, you're entitled to saying whatever you want about what I have said here and I respect that, but, sir... if you're to challenge me left and right, why not answer my question: If it were up to you, what would you do to help resolve the spamming issue while still providing an effective and easy system for promoting little known users and various artistic concepts? e.g. free art...
Do you have an alternative to gaining more users? Cause the only two ways now are to be viewed in the "Browse" section (Sure... with the speed of submitted work, let's see that sit for long), and the other is the hope of having your work seen by others in someone's favorite list... and most people won't see that work until it floats out of range on the main page...
-Instill redundant systems to combat bots
-monitor ANY level of content protection
-ASK before making massive changes *points up*
-Fix server issues to destroy constant slow laaaaaaag
-Pay general attention to, well, anything on the sight they're tasked to look after?
The list goes on and on...
But I won't stop there, see, I'm not one of the highest majority of people that list problems and complain without offering some sort of solutions... and with that said...
-Anti bot systems... all new journals and all new submissions require a captcha type box, and an invisible Captcha that only bots can see.
-create a flag function that any user can notify an admin viewed program that something is rated incorrectly.
-create a democratic system of voting for ANY noticeable changes.
-This is an interesting one, possibly incorporate a limit on the amount of Journals leading back to a specific date? (of course, complying to a "lock/Unlock" feature of the user) And to also filter the FA user base to find pages that have been inactive for an "x" amount of time, say, one year?
-Okay... Furcadia Employs the use of moderators called "Beacons" these beacons watch over various different activities that the general FA Admins can not, just due to the massive amounts of content that is always moving about. Now, sounds good, right? Well, the question then arises to how to find these moderators, well, I'm not sure if FA has anything like this, but in my best opinion, I would build a program to "watch" all active users, and after one year of activity, it would then tally up this: a thumbs up/thumbs down function to all submissions, journals, and most importantly, COMMENTS... this will naturally factor a list of who is relatively a good candidate... this shortened list will then be subjected to an "interested?" journal that asks if the user would like to become a moderator. These moderators would then have the ability to better enforce chooses principles that may slip through the Admin's cracks.
And that's my advice! ^,...^
Shame this may never be heard >,...>
Also I haven't noticed this occurring from anyone I watch.
1. Can a user who has an art chance say "Spreading the word is not required but is appreciated. Do so if you wish." Yes or no?
2. Can a user who is NOT doing a raffle and in no way profits, say in a "help this person" journal "spread the word." Yes or no?
3. Can in a "help me" journal, that is about rent / bills / etc. an artist ask others to "spread the word" as it is not a "raffle" journal?
3a. I've seen journals before that have said something like "if you spread the word to help me / this person, you'll get a sketch to show my gratitude." I'm assuming that is forbidden, but the person can do that as a surprise later on, as the people are unaware of this gesture.
4. In the YCH rule about reminders / new images, can the image itself be a reminder (without being an edit of the YCH / auction piece) or does it have to be an unrelated image with just info in the description that nobody really reads? (Not snarky, just I ask people to fave the artist's work, and it happens maybe half the time.) Could they put a thumbnail of the YCH in the corner and have a sign / character point at it and say "Reminder"? (I understand not having reminders every hour, but one or two don't bug me.)
There's been too much contradictory information above. It would be nice to have a definitive reply. Thank you!
Now, please do something about those stream announcements. There are way too many of them in the submissions ugh.
Yes, I'm being stubborn ._.
What about all the "STREAMING" messages? Sure, I'm already using FAfilter whatever thing, but they ofcourse still pop up in my inbox.
Also, HOW ABOUT SOME KIND OF A NEW SYSTEM FOR COMMENTS? Having this huuuge page having to load up and a hugeass scroll bar seriously doesn't work too well.
This rule change only applies to YCH image spam (to promote a single image over and over)
and forcing people to repost a link to their journal to gain entry.
And yeah, a system like in inkbunny would be nice.
Literally filled my whole day.
I have no life.
Not fond of that idea.
Good.
They say no journal entrys but still.. Why in the world would you do those things.. in the first place. Giving away a ps4 or a $1110 is like giving away monopoly money which is useless
Can we please have a rule saying only Furry related contests not money or consoles..
Either way rules are rules, no point bitching. Maybe this whole situation will actually force people to post art.
I don't really like YCH auctions but it is a bit of a bummer that those people can't post at least one reminder prior to ending. Even though it kind of sucks seeing the repetitive and unfinished sketchy poses in submissions, it is valid artwork. I'm going to suggest for people who do those works, since WIPs are still allowed, maybe post your first submission with the sketch, and your reminder a wip showing the completed background behind the sketch. This way should abide by rules while still allowing a reminder, and without making people think they were just spammed the exact same sketchy poses. Don't complain about not doing backgrounds on them though, if you're wanting to advertise so badly, you should be willing to work for it!
Now obey, peasants!
"Success has nothing to do with what you gain in life or accomplish for yourself. It's what you do for others."
~ Danny Thomas
did we just come full circle here? Ummmm.....Yes there is. The rule change. I thought we covered that already?
*ahem* How are we suppose to spread the word about things beyond our watcher base?
*sigh* never mind. It is plain the see that you aren't actually reading what I'm posting and just repeating the same info over and over to everyone who posts here.
The free raffle is dead and the act of helping each other to grow is against the rules. Thanks for at least pretending to listen to me. I guess the act of kindness is lost on these mortal ears.
I hold a free raffle where I commission a 2 character pic from a artist who could use a boost in notice. I free raffle off the other slot to be in the pic with me. I have them spread the word to help more people notice them than I could reach alone.
How under the new rules can I still do this?
By loop holes in the system you could have a friend with a lot of exposure plug your YCH Auctions and such. But the primary point of these changes are less to reduce spam and more to mandate an artist paying for exposure through the Ad system here on FA (Since this mostly will effect YCH Auctions and free art raffles, by interrupting the primary methods of self exposure).
No shock that these people finally got greedy enough to make trying to rapidly expand your list of watchers into a punishable offense.
Don't apologize for wasting their time, since it was him wasting yours.
The answer (By way of the New AUP) is that you can request that people plug you but you can not mandate it (for the purpose of gathering new watchers or participants of raffles).
So in your example, you are not breaking the rules by plugging some one who's art is amazing, or asking people in your watch list to plug them. By means of the AUP, you could even have that person draw you something so that you may upload it and use it to plug them, however it would have to be a new piece every time you broadcasted something for them, to include advertising their auctions with an example art using the YCH that they are selling as the thumbnail, since it is not the file that is being posted, but is something that is seen when uploaded. I hope this helps (I know it will be more useful than the Admins response, though).
Well, sadly we can't ask them to repost a journal in any way, but I did come across a loophole that the admins have told me that is not against the rules.
Instead of posting the "spam journal" in a separate journal or submission, we can post it on our profile page. It spreads the word for the artist/raffle/what have you but does not create the spam they are trying to stop. True it is not quite as effective as the journal repost but it is better than nothing at all. I asked that they add that to the top so people would know but they have yet to do so.
Just as a hint though;
Another Verbal Bypass (in the context of the AUP) is to Use the piece you are selling as a thumbnail. Link in the description, and have the Upload Be YCH written in a different spot or style or colour. You can now YCH without repercussion.
Can't change the rules the only way to mitigate the damage caused by bad rules, is to navigate around them.
The Submission File becomes unique, adhering to the AUP.
Buyers still see the piece as a thumbnail.
Most importantly Auction will still get the attention of prospective buyers.
All without breaking the new Rule.
I swear they need to have someone with half a brain make their rules, so people can't Loophole through everything... Everyone on the internet is a non-accredited Lawyer...
But I can see that you are comfortable being affiliated with putting restraints on artists and limiting exposure to a minimal amount.
You can not be "sincerely trying to help" and then chew his ass, Sorry, but that isn't how that works. Seems like another one of the stupid bureaucrats of FA who has no clue about the system, and yet defends it.
Answer the question and stop wasting time.
Comment on other people's artwork, talk to people, fav things, and generally be a member of the community.
The problem you're facing is that you want instant gratification. The world doesn't work that way, dude.
"Okay, I'll make a journal and tell them about your efforts. Here, you now get new watchers."
"Hey watchers, I found another great artist. Go check them out?"
--Cycle repeats, you become a valid source of quality information, provided it is not done with excess that annoys the people who are genuinely trying to watch you. The site is going to need people that are willing to take the time to give wholesome reviews of up-and-coming artists. If you're willing to be someone that does this, then for those that want to be introduced to new quality artists can watch you and achieve this.
As a note, if you do plan on doing this, the account needs to be specifically proposed for such usage. That means keeping fetishy / opinion-polarizing art off the account until the option to watch someone only for their journals is created.
Maybe this is the type of suggestion you were looking for.....?
I WONDER WHO ON EARTH COULD HAVE POSSIBLY BROUGHT FORTH THIS TO BE LAYED IN WRITING.
cough-krispup-cough
jk. jk.
Seriously though, Thank you for this!
Oh thank god
So if you really want to get technical, the FA adds are spam since, I am sure, many people dont want to see them.
Do you like websites where there's so much advertisement that it becomes unreadable?
Meaniful journals were lost in a huge ton of "spam-journals" and I'm glad they got rid of that problem.
Or alternative websites.
Stop calling it spam. Spam are messages you have not agreed to receive. By the moment you watch someone you agree to receive notifications for all that person's journals. If you don't like don't watch, or tell said person you are displeased with it.
A journal only linking to another journal is an advertisement for someone else that has been required by rules of the raffles. It's a completely different thing to me (and to FA).
FA doesn't say you can't advertise for people, it just says you can't be forced to do so.
What do you mean "chose to see"? You are not getting a popup for every journal as soon as you open FA. Are you unable to press Ctrl+F on your browser, type "raffle" and mark all journals matching it for removal?
I see nobody pointing a gun to other people making them pimp their journals, do you? Saying that people are being forced to pimp other journals because there are raffles that require doing so is like saying that artists who do commissions are forcing people to give them money.
"Q: May I create a journal to "signal boost" the journal, account, or submission of a friend or artist I like?
A: Yes, UNLESS the aforementioned user's journal encourages or requires you to do so in any way."
Mainly about the encouraging part.
MAIN QUESTION HERE v
Would it be okay to create a journal advertising my own discounted commission prices, in which I would say I offer small rewards [sketches or such] to people who signal boost me by their own accord and free will, and also LIMIT the amount of prized I will give, to avoid it spreading too much?
ARGUMENT WHY IT SHOULD BE ALLOWED HERE v
It's not spammy, and it's the only viable and useful, and non-intrusive self-advertising method, and probably the most efficient. Used in conjunction with an ad I want to put up along with that journal, it would be really helpful.
Unlike "money raffle journals", this one is not REQUIRED to be made, and it actually advertises cheap art and is in no way a disservice to the community.
I believe we have our freedom ['murica] to signal boost whoever we want if they said they needed it. If I'd just make a journal and not say anything about signal boosting, nobody would guess to do it. And there's some really underrated and poor artists on this site whose only possible way of promoting themselves is this [not talking about myself now] and taking it away would be cruel. It wouldn't motivate them to put up and ad and pay you, but rather leave the site to one that doesn't DISCOURAGE their exposure, or search for other possibilities of promotion, all of which are more intrusive. And a loophole has already been found, either way.
A reward for signal boosting is encouragement, so no, that's not allowed.
Would it be okay to create a journal advertising my own discounted commission prices, in which I would say something along the lines of "it would be really nice of you if you could signal boost me, or this journal in particular, if you like my art, in order for more people to see it and hopefully purchase it"?
Though, fair enough. Guess I just have to use the loophole, which in retrospect might work better and is totally not spammy! :o)
That is the problem. And that is why asking for it is not allowed.
Spam for you is a journal or submission that encourages another user to create ADDITIONAL SUBMISSIONS OR JOURNALS in regards to the same matter, aye? The profile page feature creates nothing additional. Then you shouldn't have any problem with it, as the only way other people see it is if they go to the person's page.
If that's considered spam, then the "letter-created" images are spam too. But they're not. They don't pop up in your inbox.
You're just being bitter and restraining us to put up ads.
Read the rule again:
"Spam to Win" - Journals and submissions which require OR directly encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions are PROHIBITED.
That's the only thing that's not allowed.
If you host a raffle, don't ask people to promote it in any way. That's the thing we're discussing here.
I never mentioned anything about asking people to promote you, on your profile page. That's not forbidden, you're just putting words in my mouth, now.
What I'm not gonna do : ask people to create additional submissions, or journals
What I'm gonna do : ask people to EDIT their profile info to add a feature
Which is not spam. :o)
Thanks for the assistance! Hoping there's no ill feelings, I can understand you're overflowed with this journal and revolted people, and I'm bummed at the fact that us artist have one less means of promoting.
* YCH/Auction Reminders - These Reminders must be unique and new submissions, and may NOT be a copy nor variant of previously posted submissions. These Reminders may NOT be submitted, removed, and then reused in the same fashion as other notices outlined in the Acceptable Upload Policy.
THANK YOU!
I just think this hurts artists more than it helps the community. It is very easy to hit -unwatch if you are uncomfortable with how someone is dealing with their business.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/12132701/
Why haven't you guys just created a YCH category, and forced people to submit to there? We have a category for contests, so why not create one for YCH and other commission-type things. And make it a category that doesn't automatically show up in browsing. I can completely understand that this is an art site, but as one of the biggest furry sites around, people have made this their home and business. Reminders could still be set the way they are, but just a category would be a start.
On the other hand, THANK YOU FOR THE JOURNAL SPAM REMOVAL. I was getting real tired of that. :/
Also, where in the world are you? hahahaha [strike]I'll see myself out[/strike]
I also demand strikethroughs! (I got them to work one time grr)
Also, how far in the future? I'm aware you guys seem to work in Valve Time XDDD
The main reason I choose not to watch most people, even friends, is that I either don't want their art, their business spam, or their journal spam. Some people I want only to appreciate and follow their art. Other people I don't want to see their bleh fetish art but might be fine with them as friends.
My only suggestion is that streaming notifications be further separate from things like YCH. I actually enjoy sitting in on streams from time to time, and while I wouldn't want to see an artist's sales pitches, auctions, whatevers, I might not mind hanging out in a stream. Though at the end of the day, I'd be okay with streaming notifications being restricted to the business category, provided it has a new specific dropdown for 'streaming' so that they can be manually browsed. *thinks aloud*
A: Yes, provided that entry doesn't include the exchange of consideration such as cash, items of monetary value, require nor encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions, nor violate Fur Affinity's site rules.
Include in exchange as in someone has to give those in order to enter or have that as a prize?
I'm not trying to sound sarcastic or trying to be an @$$ about it, just want to bring up what I feel is a very valid point.
So, short answer: No, that's not allowed.
I'm not trying to sound sarcastic or trying to be an @$$ about it, just want to bring up what I feel is a very valid point.
Please remember that hoping to watch everyone is flawed entitlement, and an issue that the human race is starting to kind of slip into. :P Just spend some time every once in a while to browse people's favorites and look for new people through the search engine or maybe subscribe to a user that specifically takes the time to highlight artists. It's incredibly unreasonable to expect to watch even a fraction of the people you might watch if you had omnipotence. ;)
Personally I think the new rule is just a way to force people to use the ad system that FA uses so that they can fill their coffers with money without having to do any work for it.
I have over 700 people on my watch list, but at most 5 of them feature artists they like on OCCASION. So I'm gonna call bullshit on the notion there is a considerable number of people willing to feature artists they like.
The inconveniencing the community thing just makes me think its a inconvenience to those who have alot of watchers or who are watching alot of people. Other then that its a hindrance to the community and makes it harder on the little guys. The Nuke button is your friend.
People can still "advertise" other artists or raffles in their journals. The only thing that's no longer allowed in this regard, is the requirement to post a journal about a raffle, to get a entry in said raffle.
There have been days where 50%+ of my journal notifications were nothing more than "Raffle x!"-kind of journals. That's spam.
right and to spread the news of the raffle. Because most people who do raffles need more exposure so they do that as a requirement.
1.) You may no longer post auction reminders in the form of new submissions. You may post a reminder in any new, unrelated submission(s) description(s) and journals as often as you like, but you may not repost or submit modified version of a specific auction image for the sole purpose of advertising that auction.
2.) You cannot require participants in a raffle or contest to create journal entries on their own account linking back to your journal in order to enter, nor can you ask, encourage, or even allude to it as a nicety. Participants may do so of their own volition, but, as the contest/raffle host, you cannot bring it up.
So yea, that's not allowed.
For instance, I was doing free chibis the other day and simply asking that people repost the art they get and link it back to me. Is that allowed?
If you make art for someone else, however, they may of course repost it and link back to you.
The only thing that's not allowed in this regard, is to ask / demand / encourage people to post a journal about your raffle / YCH / auction / etc.
Also, a while back, I had an admin suggest to me to finish up a version at a YCH auction and post that as an advertisement for the auction itself. Would it be acceptable to use my YCH auction as a prepose and finish it with my characters or a friend's characters (with their permission)?
Sorry for asking you a million questions. I just want to know what I can and can't do rather than post them anyways and get in trouble.
And if it wasn't the reason then just ignore my question. :p
But as someone said before, lesser known artists dont have a way of getting recognition or even those trying to advertise a raffle.
Now I know there are other ways that won't cause spam and be harmful to users journal and submissions list, but I kinda of have an idea floating around in my head.
Not sure if it will be helpful or not, but what if there was a search option for journals? Then that way if someone was looking to enter a raffle or wanted to find a journal about an auction they can search for one using tags. Similar to how the image search works?
And if not...would it be too hard to consider adopting a category for that (which might or might not be best served by having the option to be either a journal-type post, an art type post, or both if one is capable of doing so) so as to avoid the problems of spam posts and constant YCH stuff altogether? This way anyone already watching an artist would already know and if they choose to spread the word themselves (which I remember being told in an earlier discussion is okay so long as it's done without pimping the thing being part of the means by which to win said contest), one could see an increase in people joining the contest and/or becoming watchers of those giving away prizes and/or YCHs and the like?
Just a (very odd) thought.
Great minds think alike
Q. Does this prohibit art exchanges or collaborative projects, which are organized on journals and require people to post submissions (newly-created art) to participate?
Q. Does this prohibit "my friend needs help" journals, where others are encouraged to post something about it to their journals in order to "boost the signal?"
The language of the policy seems to prohibit these things, and I think we need an answer about whether or not it really applies in these cases.
Same for those who post journals on behalf of their friends who are open for discounted commissions or what have you.
My question:
If you are doing a collaboration YCH and you and your friend (the one whose doing the auction with you) post it, is that considered spam?
I am getting tired of seeing "YCH REMINDS YCH REMINDER, PIMP THIS JOURNAL AND WATCH FOR A CHANCE TO WIN A PICTURE OF SOMETHING. SOMEONE'S GIVING AWAY $1111."
This will surely make me want to actually look at my notifications again.
cause i havent seen that enforced at all anywhere
I don't mind sexual stuff at all, but I just dislike when administration doesn't respect it's own fucking rules
I am angry with them deleting IDs that are open source/non-copyrighted too, like, wtf is up with that?
You are sacrificing freedom and exchange for convenience there. This should be a personal choice, not an enforcement.
We will be watching and guiding, always.
You can still get attention other ways.
THANK GOD!
Q: May I still create raffles, contests, etc.?
A: Yes, provided that entry doesn't include the exchange of consideration such as cash, items of monetary value, require nor encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions, nor violate Fur Affinity's site rules.
Does a raffle for physical things (such as fursuits, tails, physical prints, mugs, etc) made BY a person count? Those things would be considered "monetary value". They're physical things that would be raffled, and by this question, they would not be allowed.
Raffles can still have monetary / physical prices, they just can't have something physical or monetary as a requirement to enter.
Significant difference there.
if you have a YCH up as a buy it now option and NOT an auction, and it doesnt get sold within x amount of time(lets say a week, because thats what i usually go for unless im desperate for cash) can you delete and reupload it?
and, if you have multiple buy it now YCHs up, can you put up a collage of them and count that as your new submission? or vise versa, post multiples at a time and upload them separately if they're not being bought?
thank you so much <3 I'm so tired of seeing spammyspamspam journals..
*cough* $1111 *cough*
ahem.. pardon me.
Yah.. It's totally not cool. Also I got REALLY sick of hearing about it >.<
i read that is $20 per month of advertisement, but i wouldn't like pay this and then don't receive any client.
(sorry for my bad english, i speak spanish)
Also know a few other users have gotten lottsa new watchers that way. I'll definitively get one later , but would be silly as I'm not feeling like doing commissions atm xD
THIS NEEDS TO BE HEARD
I hold a raffle in a journal but do not make "signal boosting" a requirement to enter. However, in my journal I say something to the effect of, "It would be cool if people would like to give me a shout-out on their pages, but you don't have to," thereby leaving it as an option. They would be linking to my profile, not the raffle itself. Additionally, I'd only have the raffle open to my current watchers at the time of the start of the raffle (meaning anyone who got linked to me through one of my current watchers would have no incentive to even enter and continue the chain of shout-outs for me).
The reason I ask is because it could be seen as "encouraging" people to make a journal to link back to me since I am saying that I'd appreciate it, however, I'm not forcing them to do so for entry purposes. Plus, those linked to me in this way may or may not realize I'm even holding a raffle if whoever linked to me made no mention of it (people reading the shout-out journals may just think the person linked them to my art because they liked it or something). Even if they did read that I have a raffle going on, they still wouldn't be entering it anyway and potentially perpetuating the chain of "spam journals".
I've never done a raffle before, even under the old rules, but I've thought about maybe trying one out in the future. I'd just like a clarification on this in the event I decide to try it out sometime in the future; I wouldn't want to cause trouble!
Bummer though. I was hoping that maybe it would be legal under the new rule since the journals wouldn't be creating a huge chain of spam and ripple out across the whole community with the raffle only open to a set number of watchers. So, does that mean this interpretation of "encouraging" implies that asking friends to signal boost for me is against the rules, even if I asked through something other than a specific journal (as in possibly tacked onto the bottom of the description of a unique submission or in a note)?
These were my ideas for the rules:
**Err just note they are not ironed out at all, just kinda ideas I had
Rule 1 - Journals Spam
My idea would be that all journals held as a "Raffles for Art or Money" will not require watchers
advertise the journal, but watchers may if they like to help the artist out. For journals however,
that do require a promoting feature should be limited to artist who really need the watchers or
if the journal is acting on a good cause, like donations to charity.
--For new artist, it would be nice for well known artist to give them a promote journal to
help them get out there. I do this from time to time, and find it is an amazing way to give
back, this will also help prevent against people making journal raffles to gain watchers.--
Rule 2 - Art Spam (YCH and Adopts)
I feel the old rule was great for this one, if anything add a bit more restriction.
My idea would be the auction main image should be posted to your scraps, and
you may have one linking image as advertisement in your public submissions.
However, they should only be reposted every 24 hours or every 2 days for long auctions.
I knew this will happen. I guess no one was listening in what I was saying in my other journal in a comment that said in November 16, 2013 05:47 PM:
Well if that is that case then their would been a lot of reports to file, also its a lot of work since their is a limit to everyone like us humans. But will a computer compare system, people can determine which is close to one or 100% the same. In site like this one won't allow it cause they will lose people in this site, also people will pull out all at once or some thing. I understand how people are going to feel when they hear about this. But now ,...such thing like that does not exist. Its costs money to do that kind of system. Right now people that created FA. Main goal for them is to make sure that the site not shutdown or add in space for the site it self.
This was done many days later until the rule change.
I never knew that what I said could be true.
My prediction was in a comment.
I suppose that people are going to start pulling out of this cause of the new rule then nothing is ever fixed or any agreement. The only reason why this site is still running from 2005 to now is cause of people, also freedom. Some other wanted to find a good to site where it was not like DA with trolls, also copy-cats, thief's Praise to steal stuff from their.
I will have to link my free requests, art trades from FA to another site.
its an easier way to around this whole rule change I predict that people will state doing to avoid other troubles along the way.
I see no sign of Common sense when new rules are though of. If only their was an agreement with the people of FA, also the Creator, Admins to solves problems.
One group alone can't solve problems unless their more than three parties like first party, second party, Third Party. Like if you are compromising altogether.
Has FA ever learn any its mistakes before, I think not. Think nor even. This is only the truth about problems now. Also this is a major FA Crisis that can't be solved by adding more rules. That's saying that you want to cover up your mistakes with something that can't be told about or say that is an error, that is the creator's fault or an a Higher up Admin.
The people have spoken, also the masters must listen or not.
I see that only this the Admins in crisis comments now are acting more robotizing than answering questions.
Are they afraid that they made a some errors or is it because some users over took the advantage of the old rules, now new rules are being in placed upon.
If I was the creator of FA. I would not let the use his account from a week or a year for what he done or others like him or her.
Also I would make a section of Reminders, YCHs, Actions for people than Punishing them all for doing so or give them.
And I would of let users know if they want to hear or they can disable Journals from their watchers or if they have choice not to see them like an Mailbox but not showing cause what you see is none but if you want to open junk Journals.
Freedom can be limited unless the people of FA are not abusing that pillage to work with the admins about following the old rules, not extending to what you are wanting to do.
I can say I blame people for this that are dumb, also took a huge advantage of the old rules.
Why? why not all of them could read them so they go for with is important to them.
So In the facts that I'm telling people now.
Please be respectful of my own honesty in this typing.
The truth must be told in the hands of a lot of people.
Fender is looking at this comment then he might learn a few things. Never Repeat what was the past.
I know its tough to run a data based Social furry mix website but please have approve to the people that are in it also.
I hear that their is a lot of old accounts that are not working in FA anymore from old users.
Some that say "moved" or something else.
U hope the Admins, FA people, the creator of FA is reading this comment
She has some ideas on this topic if you want to look^-^ Also talk to Fender about it maybe he can do something about the site's problem. This might help in a way to end this mess.
So everything can be back to normal for all users, Admins, The Creator also.
It may be because of something else but, there's only 4 spots at a time on the sites for ads. :/
I think, im not too sure on how it works, but wouldnt it give less view time the more people bought it?
What happens when a crazy amount of people buy ads?
Is it rotated month by month then? Would there be big line ups for adspace?
when you tick that option and set its timer the page is cued into they ych page which displays them in closing order
other than there poor {censored} who has to code/ design it, everyone wins
CANT we stop this?? does noone read the ruls? XD srs.
It's good to know, I was going to do this for a Christmas or Valentine's raffle, before the rule changed.
The reason I did it as optional was because it was such a pain to see "must put up journal to enter, no buts!" raffle because I didn't want to put a journal up most times so I just never entered, and I wouldn't force it on anyone else, so I guess it's not an unfair rule change.
At least make a separate section for those, so those who are posting actual artwork don't get buried in all the advertising.
InkBunny and Weasyl both have separate sections in your inbox where Stream notifications will go when people start streaming.
Because it's fucking convenient.
...spam spam spam spam...
Its amazing how much drama gets started on these kinda things.... and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the post its self. XD
But a lot of it is people bitching. XD and being rude.
Personally I'm apathetic about the new rule. Yea it sucks for those of us artists who didn't abuse the YCH reminders.... and now we can't do it AT ALL.... but ...... its not my website, so..... I'll just roll with the punches and follow the rules. :) Its not that HUGE of a deal..... at least to me.
Basically, if we all pack up and leave, the staff would have a problem. In customer service, it only takes one complaint or one action of a customer to ruin it for everyone, or to force change... now it's just the staff aren't listening XD
A: Yes, UNLESS the aforementioned user's journal encourages or requires you to do so in any way."
Can I get some clarification on this, please? When you say "encourage", does this mean you'll punish people who say something to the effect of "any additional attention for this would be appreciated!", or what?
Also, your comments on raffles mentions "items of monetary value". Considering that any actual item exchange or commission can be read as said item, are you saying that FA now fully bans raffling off participation in commissioned art?
And as for the second one, it means that you can't have "pay to enter" raffles. Ie, you can't pay money or items of monetary value to ENTER. I asked and they clarified X3
First one: www.furaffinity.net/journal/5279697/#cid:37229313
Here's the second one: www.furaffinity.net/journal/5279697/#cid:37249467
Basically, if you scroll through the admin comments, they basically say that You can't encourage people. You can't say "If you could signal boost this, that'd be great", or "If you'd like, please spread the word", or "if you do this, you get a free sketch!" or even aluding to the fact that you'd like a signal boost.
I'm not sure, however, if you can ask to reblog on Tumblr and provide a Tumblr link, because it has nothing to do with FurAffinity; it would be Tumblr's problem (and Tumblr doesn't care).
You're welcome to hold a raffle for participation in commissioned art. The restrictions are primarily on what is required for entry. So you can't tell people "to enter in my raffle, mail me a postage stamp" or whatever, but if you wanted to you could hold a raffle where the winner gets one stamp for each person that entered (out of your own pocket).
That should say "will be removed if found." Barely an issue but thought I'd point that out if you're looking to correct any typos/mistakes. :P
can we please have the Sponsored Fender Fursuit guy change his icon? [http://www.furaffinity.net/user/coopertom] I can't look at a news post without that jarring animation distracting me so much so it gives me a headache. I thought there was a rule about siezure inducing icons and if that black and white number dousen't qualify it certainly should.
I can excuse a poorly produced icon by someone who dousen't know how to animate but a GIF from video animation that is so short needs to be less jarring because it can cause physical illness in much the same way as flashing colors. help a fur out before I have convulsions (note: I haven't been diagnosed with siezures but that thing is seriously uncomfortable to look at when you are concentrating)
hear them screamsee them unless you post a link in a finished work? Yep.I'm this close to designing a site JUST for YCH auctions that ISN'T furbuy...
You really should! I think if you advertised it well and everything it could really take off, at least until the concept falls out of style.
But seeing as how, after five minutes, the scroll bar has barely moved down any noticeable amount of pixels...
... Yeeaaa, no. Goodness people feel strongly for this, whether it's one side or the other.
A: Yes, provided that entry doesn't include the exchange of consideration such as cash, items of monetary value, require nor encourage other users to create additional journals and submissions, nor violate Fur Affinity's site rules."
Just for clarification/understanding, we can still create raffles/contests/etc as long as we do NOT ask for reposting, cash, items of monetary value, etc...?
Note: That is how I am reading this and pardon any stupidness on my part since I just found out about this change and I've been working my tail off lately. My cycle is Work, Eat, Sleep, Repeat. >.<
I can understand why these rules are established. I understand the majority of the people wanted this. But we can't even say "it'd be awesome if you could spread the word" because that would be encouraging.
So yea. I'll never be able to do a raffle for art, or a contest, or sell a YCH. I'm pretty sure there are many others in the same boat here.
Raffles are one way of getting people to notice your art, or just to do something nice. But with a low amount of watchers, and no spreading required, it isn't really gonna happen.
What about con meme journals? Con meme journals are extremely numerous before every con but they are very informative if you want to find someone or want to know when someone is arriving at a con.
The amount of spam and such hasn't really reduced that much. Its just more altered to conform to your "new picture" demand. there is still plenty of "YCH Repost spam" except it now has a small quick doodle over it (or a doodle as the picture) to conform. something which plenty already use in some way with their mascot characters. So not really helping.
I commend what you are trying to do and how the site is trying to adapt to people's desire, but i think a lot of trouble can be prevented if some better enforcement of the rules would be used rather then banning and hope people will comply (plenty examples of AUP rule breaking around)
I believe what FA needs more is some kind of blocklist filter for KEYWORDS and maybe even 'submission theme'(e.g. the whole 'hyper' one or any other else), similarly to e.g. inkbunny (I've seen their main page settings in general as a guest and I liked their browsing improvement FA really needs to introduce). Good for users who e.g. like adult submissions in general but feel bad/touched/incomfortable/offended/disgusted/etc. about e.g. seeing some specific fetishes and perversies^^ So they are not forced to a)see them b)put their SFW filter on or block all the adult contents(leaving mature). PLEASE! *.*
I'm afraid I don't undstand the actual message... Could you paraphrase using different words too? (I'm a non-native and I'm not into computers&programming)
Click +Add to FireFox (If you use Firefox)
Then you can make it so you don't see certain messages anymore
Bless on you and anyone who worked on that!
Ohh, if my browser can make it... what if it can't load the "Downloading filter lists" nor the "Next step" button?:(
I mean it doesn't allow me to go to that step....
I have completely no idea... I restarted the browser too, didnt' help.
I'm wondering... what would I risk if I asked my father to make it work? I'm an adult but still, I don't want my father to know I use a site so full of animalistic porn... He barely knows English, but still, some words sound obvious becuase are multilingual... Should I ask him of not? s there anythign that shows something so obviously he'll guess too much?
FA has slowed down considerably since this journal they need to get rid of it!
Thank fucking christ 'cus these annoyed me more than anything and my inbox was constantly filled with them. Thank you. Really.
Now you have to:
A. have a bunch of watchers and hope they aren't creeper accounts.
B. make sure you post on a day when a lot of users are on so it actually gets seen.
I love when other people ruin it for others who aren't the problem.
Or a new upload category where every artist is allowed to have one active ad uploaded that will be randomly (and not sequentially sorted by uploaded time) viewed?
Seriously. Some of these rules I can understand, but some bits are starting to feel more like censorship than management. Submissions, fine - submissions take up space. Journals are fuckin' text. Don't fuckin' fuck with journals. If you don't like seeing a bunch of spam journals in your inbox, then UNWATCH the people they came from.
I am but a humble smut merchant and rely on word of mouth and random clicks to fund my livelyhood and doritos.
However, I just spent longer than I'd like to admit browsing the comments, and was thoroughly entertained.
THANK YOU
I'm absolutely SICK of seeing YCH reminders all over the place.
there's no secrets in this game though, you know who's giving you a drawing
Juist as an example InkBunny has a simple system by where useres can announce streams without clogging up thier gallery with submissions.
Thisthisthisthisthisthisthis
Submit a report. You may not want to be "that guy", but the mods can't know until someone brings it to their attention.
Now I can actually pay attention to REAL journals.
I get so frustrated with all the spam I nuke the whole thing
Now to wait 5 minutes as sending this and reloading the page crashes my browser.
A: Yes, provided that entry doesn't include the exchange of consideration such as cash, items of monetary value..." ?
He was stating that posting a journal with a link to someone else's journal, contest, raffle, ych, whatever is fine-as long as it isn't a requirement to enter said contest, raffle, ec, ect.
"It's okay to promote your friends"
In my initial comment I was stating that there is a money giveaway going on right now, and that rule I quoted in my reply to you a few minuets ago is what made me think that giving away money isn't allowed.
The rules aren't quite clear here, Dragoneer explains it better over on twitter
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/statu.....96118387183616
https://twitter.com/Dragoneer/statu.....17615179702272
I wish it was cleared up in this journal because I personally don't use Twitter so I feel like I don't have the same access to critical information that others do.
This is something that really needs to be cleared up in the CoD too, since alot of people link it to people running money giveaways and then when they report it get told otherwise and think the admins have double standards.
It's like a chain, you give 10 freebies and those who get one give 10 more, I think it's a good idea but I don't know if it's prohibited or not.
There has indeed been a marked increase in the prevalence of YCH auctions; my submissions box has had at least five on one page at all times for a little over four months.
I understand that it's a really lucrative and valuable practice, but we don't need a reminder submission every other day.
I'm glad that these changes have been implemented, along with the new policy on spam journals.
Hopefully this will lead to a less cluttered inbox in general.
I personally use a filter.
Can I ask people to "spread the word" to a specific category of people? Something like, "if you have any Trekkie friends who you think might like this fanfic, please direct them here!" I'm *not* asking for people to create a journal to advertise to their whole watcher base. I'm asking them to let their Trekkie friends know, which might be done in any number of ways, like sending them the link via FA note, skype, chat, email, etc. Now, some of my readers might have tons of Trekkies in their watcher base and decide to make a journal advertising my fanfic, but I'm NOT asking them to do the word-spreading via journal.
Does that make sense?
I think it shouldn't break the rules to say something like, "pass this link on to [specific sub-group of people]" rather than "signal-boost this journal via another FA journal"
If there's specific points I'm not managing to cover here, please let me know and I'll find out the answer for you.
More than the journal re-posting nightmare that caused this change
And the cause of it was by FA itself
...what happens then? :U
You know people are still ignoring the fuck out of this, right? This time of the day (Like right now as I'm typing this) people do that out the ass